posted
I was wondering if Zawass and his luminaries are making efforts to substitute the real names of AE in lieu of their Greek names which are now accepted as de facto ?
I know that European archeologists seem in no hurry of doing that nor is the popular culture in regards to Egypt
Perhaps if the Egyptian authorites were to take a stand like the Chinese did when they decided to "Chinese" their cities names etc..like old Pekin is no Beijing,etc..
I do recall there was an outcry by Western sinologists but eventually they did have to comply...and the rest is history..
Maybe a campaign in Egypt by Egyptians could do a lot here..Also applying pressures on Hawass to start doing likewise..
A good way is to compel the Egyptian egyptologists to use the real AE names.
Also do likewise in all of the Egyptian governmental publications,museums,etc..
And have a date limit when all the changes will have to have been implemented like 2012 ?(smiles)
I mean think about, every time something is deciphered, it genetically matches a Black African word or phrase; not only in pronunciation/soundings, but in meaning. So naturally, Arab-Euro collaboration continues in the quest to dodge the obvious: Ancient Kemetians were Black Africans and Black Africans today are the continued bloodlines of Ancient Kemetians.
Posts: 213 | From: New York City, USA | Registered: Sep 2007
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posted
Humm,I would not go that far--the scholars in the late 19th and early 20th centuries did use Greek terminology..
I suspect that as the deciphering was yet fully determined scholars relied on Ancient Greek writers of the rendition of the Egyptian names..
Also old scholars like Erman,Budge,Petrie etc always tended to give both names side by side(Khemetian/Greek)
Nowadays modern authors only use the Greek names as standard practices..
Also they do not give a crap about the pronounciation to the terms.. as I read that "they have better things to do"..
Heck,how can one learn an language if pronounciation is unimportant ? Try learning Chinese that way !(smiles)
That the AE were Blacks- that is over simplification
Heck look up at present day Greeks-they look more like Turks than the Ancient Greeks
Also one of the ancient Greek tribes like the Dorians had green eyes and red hair; cannot say that I see much Greeks of that complexion..
Posts: 305 | Registered: May 2006
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posted
LOL @ the topic header. I take it by "Egyptianize" you mean Europeanize. Like making the name Kafra into Cephren or Amenhotep into Amenophis etc. It is a matter of accuracy. The Sinology example is a good analogy. Why subsitute European versions of the names when you can use the originals. I know the original reason to use corrupt European versions was a matter of laziness in which to Europeans, the European versions were easier to pronounce. Now this might especially be true with Chinese, but Egyptian names are much easier to pronounce and I don't see the reason for such substitutions other than to deny the Africaness of such names.
Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Though it does appear a little funny, the topic header could be a good title for the subject matter; Egyptian is a Greek [European] word.
No what, now that I think of it, is there any outside reference to Km.t outside of "House of Ptah" [Egypt] and "Between the two gates" [Mizraim]?
I know that Kemet was but one of the names they referred to their state as, and probably the most valid.
But you'd think someone else would have aknowledge the self-name of a civilazation so powerful as ancient Egypt, at least somewhere in that span.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ray2006: Humm,I would not go that far--the scholars in the late 19th and early 20th centuries did use Greek terminology..
I suspect that as the deciphering was yet fully determined scholars relied on Ancient Greek writers of the rendition of the Egyptian names..
Also old scholars like Erman,Budge,Petrie etc always tended to give both names side by side(Khemetian/Greek)
Nowadays modern authors only use the Greek names as standard practices..
Also they do not give a crap about the pronounciation to the terms.. as I read that "they have better things to do"..
Heck,how can one learn an language if pronounciation is unimportant ? Try learning Chinese that way !(smiles)
That the AE were Blacks- that is over simplification
Heck look up at present day Greeks-they look more like Turks than the Ancient Greeks
Also one of the ancient Greek tribes like the Dorians had green eyes and red hair; cannot say that I see much Greeks of that complexion..
So AE were blacks is an oversimplification because Greeks look more like Turks? That is straw man nonsense. Greeks and Turks are WHITE. Turks did dominate Greece in the Middle Ages and Turkic people have been influential in the Greek mainland for most of Greece's history. But again, they are ALL still white.
None of that has ANYTHING to do with the AE and the fact that dynastic Egypt was PRIMARILY black. In fact, it also goes to show how populations change over time. So just as Greece came to be dominated by foreigners fter the fall of ancient Greece, so to did ancient Egypt.
Posts: 8893 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
First,I made the comparison of the ancient Greeks as to the modern Greeks just to show how perception of things can change...
AE- yes many pharaons were indeed black,many were not,others were of mixed origin-interesting that we seem to know little about the "Libyans",some of which later became pharaons,etc..
In regards to reverting to the AE names starting with Egypt etc.. I dare say it could be partly be due to religious reasons..
Evidence is mounting that Islam was a creation of the Roman Catholic Church who destroyed the AE religion. However they did not succeed with the Jewish faith but were very successful in morphing into it many alien concepts(Kabbalah ,etc..)
As the Egyptian State Information Service continues to utilize the Greek words in regards to AE,I guess people have their work cut out for them...
Thus,any knowledge of a campaign in Egypt to Khemetize(!) it ?
It certainly cannot come from outsiders...
Posts: 305 | Registered: May 2006
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AE- yes many pharaons were indeed black,many were not,others were of mixed origin-interesting that we seem to know little about the "Libyans",some of which later became pharaons,etc..
You make it sound that pharaohs were fifty fifty between "blacks" and "non-blacks"(?); so,
1) How do you actually quantify "many" here?
2) Are the "black" ones and "non-black" ones native Egyptians?
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Egyptian civilization lasted 3,000 years. Just think of it. If AE civilization began at AD 1 then there would still be another 1,000 years to go before the duration of AE civilization would be matched.
Regardless of the AE pharaohs the best way to get a good profile of the physiognomies of the AEs would be to look at how the masses of people were portrayed. They are invariably of African stock of present-day East Africa-Sudan. Which, of course, is to be expected.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): Though it does appear a little funny, the topic header could be a good title for the subject matter; Egyptian is a Greek [European] word.
No what, now that I think of it, is there any outside reference to Km.t outside of "House of Ptah" [Egypt] and "Between the two gates" [Mizraim]?
I know that Kemet was but one of the names they referred to their state as, and probably the most valid.
But you'd think someone else would have aknowledge the self-name of a civilazation so powerful as ancient Egypt, at least somewhere in that span.
(sigh)...
A) The word "Egyptian" IS NOT a Greek word; it is an Egytian word, "Het-Kip-Toh" (Temple of the Essence of Ptah) that is pronounced as such in the Greek Language as Aa-Gip-toh and in Greek, or any other language it would be written "Egypto"...
B) as to the orgin of the word "Mizraim" or "Misr":
quote:Originally posted by Wally: I posted this November 30, 2003:
quote: "The name Mizraim may have been given Egypt (by foreigners) in respect of its double wall." - Budge, E.A.W.
The name Misr is a Semiticized form of Ancient Egyptian: Medjr = walled district Medjre = tower, fortress
These Ancient Egyptian words became Meetsrayeem [Egypt] and Meetsree [Egyptian] in Hebrew, and in Arabic; Misr and Masri respectively. It is the same as Westerners calling China, China, after the original Qin dynasty emperor [Tschina]. The Chinese, however, call their country Zhongguo or 'the Middle Kingdom.'
And yes, it could be by derivation ("double-wall") have come to mean the two lands...
The Official name of Ancient Egypt was Kemet, which means, EXACTLY, "Black Nation" - the Mdu Ntr speaks for itself, and more of you should study it...it would prevent a lot of confusion Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: LOL @ the topic header. I take it by "Egyptianize" you mean Europeanize. Like making the name Kafra into Cephren or Amenhotep into Amenophis etc. It is a matter of accuracy. The Sinology example is a good analogy. Why subsitute European versions of the names when you can use the originals. I know the original reason to use corrupt European versions was a matter of laziness in which to Europeans, the European versions were easier to pronounce. Now this might especially be true with Chinese, but Egyptian names are much easier to pronounce and I don't see the reason for such substitutions other than to deny the Africaness of such names.
Or Khufu (which SOUNDS very African in origin) being replaced with Cheops.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
As per per E.A. Wallis Budge page 1,2 of "The Mummy"-a handbook of Egyptian Funerary Archaeology: The "Egyptians" gave many names to their land;the commonest one was Kam-t,ie the Black because of the dark color of the soil..
"The deserts on each side of the Nile were called Tesher-t,the Red because of the colour of the stones and sand."
"Another old name was Tamera"...
" Land of the South(Upper Egypt) and Land of the North(lower Egypt.These 2 Egypts are referred to as Taui or the Two Lands.."
"The Hebrews called the whole country Mizraim(Genesis X,6) and many thinks it refers to the Two Lands.."
The Greek name "Aiguptos" probably derived from from the ancient native name of Memphis, Hekaptah"
"from the Greek form came the Latin Aegyptus and then our modern Egypt.."
"Naville suggests that the name Egypt is derived from Ageb,and the country was the "land of the Flood",the Inundation,which was poured over the whole land by the Flood-god Ageb"
And Budge points out that Masr(Arab name of Cairo )meant to many muslisms all of Egypt".
Budge had this "bad tendency'(!) to give the hieroglyphic besides the names in English...which most modern egyptologists do not even bother with..
So there you have it,many choices..
Thus my original query is still unanswered- is there any movement presently in EGYPT to give AE their original names ?
Also why does the Egyptian government continue to use Greek/westernized names for their countries,cities etc...?
Posts: 305 | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ray2006: AE- yes many pharaons were indeed black,many were not
Which ones weren't? To make such a significant claim requires significant evidence, or at least some. Truth by assertion doesn't qualify as genuine truth as it is only an assertion. Seemingly a baseless, liberal and all inclusive assertion at that, which is illogical. Are you seriously going to avoid supporting this claim, while you go on to downplay its significance and talk around it, or will you man up and concede that it was simply a reactionary claim with no basis in reality or evidenced fact?
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
The "libyans" as called in AE-many became pharaons,but not much is known about their skin color as far as I can determine..
And no I do not subscribe to the New Age theory of one Michael Tsarion that the "celts" build upthe pyramids !
As for the majority of the AE were blacks-well let us look at their religion-I fail to see its counterpart in "Black Africa"...
Why people here and elsewhere are fixed on the monuments,pyramids,sarcophagus ,DNA of the AE,etc...while quasi ignoring their writings, their true monotheistic religion ,spirituality,philosophy of life,societal values,etc..still escapes me..
Posts: 305 | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ray2006: The "libyans" as called in AE-many became pharaons,but not much is known about their skin color as far as I can determine..
Lybians were not Egyptians, hence, they were not "Pharaohs" in that the latter dynasties were foreign derived, non-descendants of Heru. Therefore, I have no idea why you bring them up as to support your claims of a non-indigenous origins for a great bulk of Egypt's native Pharaohs.
quote:And no I do not subscribe to the New Age theory of one Michael Tsarion that the "celts" build upthe pyramids !
You seem to adhere to similar diffusionist ideas based on subjectivism, so why would your position be any different, or superior to that one?
quote:As for the majority of the AE were blacks-well let us look at their religion
Why would we be looking at religion to assess the ethnic composition of a population? Is this just you grasping for straws, in that you equate "religion" with biogeographic ancestry and skin color? Are you genuinely that obtuse?
quote:-I fail to see its counterpart in "Black Africa"...
Ancient Egypt is "Black Africa" since it was comprised by Black Africans. Your circular reasoning is non-applicable and with that said, among their contemporaries, those closest to them as far as culture and belief systems, were the Nubians.
Question/comment for you now..
I fail to see its counterpart in "White Africa".. Can you perhaps, shed light on that? Of course since you assume that all Africans must share some sort of spiritual homogeneity in order to be validated as Africans and those who deviate from what ever arbitrary baseline you set up, are some how unauthentic.
quote:Why people here and elsewhere are fixed on the monuments,pyramids,sarcophagus ,DNA of the AE,etc...while quasi ignoring their writings, their true monotheistic religion ,spirituality,philosophy of life,societal values,etc..still escapes me..
What escapes me is why you'd think this has more bearing on identification than the said DNA you reference.
If I'm a Christian, does this mean that my Paternal DNA will come out positive for R1b?
Better yet, if I practice some off shoot religion that I completely made up, does that somehow lead to punctuated evolution, as to where I diverge at a rapid pace from my most recent common ancestors to the point where there's a clear distinction? So skeletal material, DNA, archaeology and the like all do not matter since their religion and writings tell us that the ancient Egyptians were non Black non Africans? Surely you didn't answer my question and are ranting about nothing, so I will be fair and ask you again by way of copy and paste:
Are you seriously going to avoid supporting this claim (that many Egyptian Pharaohs, or Egyptians in general, were non black non Africans), while you go on to downplay its significance and talk around it, or will you man up and concede that it was simply a reactionary claim with no basis in reality or evidenced fact?
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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As for the majority of the AE were blacks-well let us look at their religion-I fail to see its counterpart in "Black Africa"...
Now of course, that premise makes no sense, not to mention that you failed to take into account, the fact that Kemetic cosmology underwent evolution or changes over the course of proto-dynastic period to the late dynastic period.
In any case, material is available to those who seek to avail themselves of it...
[*]Kingship:
The Rainmaker concept Among the Lulubo and Lokoya, responsibility for the various aspects of the natural environment that can be critical for community survival is allocated to the different clans. In case of a crisis (drought, infertility) the clan associated with the problem, is the target of investigations. The main investigation strategy is to check, one by one, the quarrels members of that clan have been involved in. When such a conflict has been identified, a solution is suggested: by way of reconciliation or restitution. Of particular interest are provocations of the responsible clan official. If a settlement of the dispute fails to bring the required result, there will be more rounds of investigation. If no solution is found the official of the clan associated with the disorder will be suspected of deliberately sabotaging the community. Accusations and counter-accusations will be thrown back and forth. The clan-official stands face-to-face with the community. If the disaster subsides, and if he uses the expectations focused on him cleverly, he may come out as a more powerful and wealthier member of the community. If the disaster prolongs, and there are no other candidates left to be blamed, he must be killed. He ends up as the scapegoat of his community.
This type of drama is most elaborate in the case of the Rainmaker. Of the various public concerns the weather has the greatest dramatic potential. Rains are capricious and localised. Rain falls over a period of 9 months. Its timeliness is a precondition for the two main harvests. The tension is particularly high in June when the first crop is about to be harvested and the annual period of hunger is peaking. The power of Rainmakers is built on this suspense. If they manage the rains well they gain in prestige. If the rains fail the community turns against its Rainmaker blaming him or her of drought. For as long as the drought persists, the confrontation between the king and his community will escalate. The process follows the steps listed in the attached table. It may ultimately lead to the Rainmaker being killed. In the area I studied I identified 26 cases of accomplished killings of kings within living memory. As the crisis deepens and the need for a solution rises all members of the community, including women and children, are gradually drawn into the process. It is the most dramatic manifestation of the community acting as a unified entity…
The clan-leaders, Rainmakers, the Master of the Bush, Master of the Soil, the Master of Birds etc. are given recognition by being given designated parts of game after a hunt, the first catch of white ants, etc. They may be reminded of their responsibility by an annual sacrifice at the beginning of the season. Clan- officials are also called on on a private basis: to bless a newly cleared field, heal barrenness, to protect against pests…
Between the different ecological responsibilities, rain is the most important. The importance not only depends on its practical importance for agriculture but also on its potential for generating social consensus during a period of crisis. While the Rainmaker usually shares the title of ‘King’ (Lulubo ‘osi’, Lokoya, ‘ohobu’ Lotuho ‘hobu’) with two or three other officials (usually fertility and soil) their cosmological position as ‘kings of heaven’ is matched by the highest social status.
Reciprocity in the management of natural order may be negative as well as positive. If the members of the community provoke the clan official, disorder will follow: leopards may turn up at unusual places, the soil will turn infertile, and women have miscarriages. Initial solutions for addressing such disorder are through mechanisms of exchange, by way of restitution and restoration. However the reciprocity is not between the community and the environment but between different clans using their ecological powers to blackmail others and create dependency…
In few ethnographic areas is the continuity between kingship and divinity, captured in Rene Girard’s famous phrase that “gods are dead kings as much as sacred kings are gods who have not yet died”, so easily visible as in the Nilotic world. The death of the Eastern Nilotic Rainmaker/King plays a key role. If he dies as a victim of the crowd, his death is expected to release the rain and to re-activate ecological normality. If the King dies a non-violent death his powers will remain active for at least one complete season. For that period the tomb will be the object of ritual attention. For about one year after his death the King will not be succeeded. The dead King reigns. Before the new rainy season, after the tomb has been flattened, a new person will take over. We could say that these kings enjoy a short-lived divinity. The power of the king and that of divinity are continuous. The same terms are used for both. To say that a certain rainmaker’s powers are effective the Lulubo will say: the man is really ‘ juok’ . “Juok’ is the word used for God
Source: http://www.bezinningscentrum.nl/teksten/girard/s/Simonse_Simon_1.htm ... an interesting piece that goes over the impact of ecological situations on interaction within communities and visa versa, how that ties into Kingship and ritualisation. The above is the example for the Rainmaker.
"Here is an excerpt from a book by Cyril Aldred about the rainmaker king:
But although the purely archeological evidence might appear to demonstrate a parallel development in the two areas, we know that in fact this, though superfically existing in material culture, was not the product of indentical societies, nor was it leading to such state of affairs. In Mesopotamia the beginnings of little independent city-states under tutelary gods, rulers, councils and assemblies are perceptible, though later to be submerged in a familar pattern of oriental despotism, but in Egypt from the beginning we are able to glimpse that essentially African figure, the omnipotent, rainmaking, god-king. The prehistoric cheiftain, a rainmaker and medicine-man, with magic power over the weather and therefore able to keep his people in health and prosperity becomes with the founding of the first, the Pharoah, a divine king being in command over the Nile and able to substain and protect the notion."
page 9
Cyril Aldred Egypt to the End of the Old Kingdom
following text taken from The Dawn of Civilization by Professor Stuart Piggott
Azande: Note the bells at the bottom of the stick, which echoes similar "symbolic" attachments to sticks and scepters in ancient Egypt. Also note the simple skirts worn by both the AE and many African societies.
Osiris holding scepter:
Again:
This is purely a superficial comparison of course.
Posts: 8893 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Hmm,some people seem to literally take at par value the colors found on may of the hieroglyphs..
Now,I hav enot seen amy modern interpretations as to why this, so..
Why did the AE used colors in the first place ?
And colors did have a religious meaning as well as a symbolic effect
The AE scribes did not just used colors on a whim..
The hieroglyphic system was codified and very strict- this is why we can decipher hieroglyphs written in the timss of the Ptolomy dynasties as those made during Khufru,etc..
Religion is a valid clue to determine the real origin of the AE..Some minor changes did occur over more than 4,000 yrs but what the Greeks/Romans were able to understand it was basically the same beliefs that were old by millenia..
Take the Christian religions(!) or Judaism..their beliefs have basically remained the same for over 2000 yrs..this is how we can to a great degree trace the oriion /ancestry as to who the early christians,Hebrews(Jews) were..
This is how one is able to trace back the ancestry of the LEMBAS (as stated in another thread)which are more Jewish than many American/European Jews !
Now anyone can show me the same religious concepts still in usage today that can cleary be recognized from AE religion as well as certain societal values,clothing,language,related script,etc..
Surely the European "rediscoverers" of Africa in the 19th century would have noted such encounters,no ?
Posts: 305 | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Read Budge. As he learned more about Egypt over his years of study he published numerous examples of identical concepts in ancient Egypt and 19th century Africa.
quote:Budge's works on Egyptian religion were unique in that he maintained that the religion of Osiris had emerged from an indigenous African people: "There is no doubt," he said of Egyptian religions in Osiris and the Egyptian Resurrection (1911), "that the beliefs examined herein are of indigenous origin, Nilotic or Sundani in the broadest signification of the word, and I have endeavoured to explain those which cannot be elucidated in any other way, by the evidence which is afforded by the Religions of the modern peoples who live on the great rivers of East, West, and Central Africa . . . Now, if we examine the Religions of modern African peoples, we find that the beliefs underlying them are almost identical with those Ancient Egyptian ones described above. As they are not derived from the Egyptians, it follows that they are the natural product of the religious mind of the natives of certain parts of Africa, which is the same in all periods."
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ray2006: Hmm,some people seem to literally take at par value the colors found on may of the hieroglyphs..
Just incase you didn't notice - Doug M was not talking about the colors on the posted pictures that preceded you post, obviously [who's green?].
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
Okay= the colors of the hieroglyphics-I have yet to read a valid explanation let alone by modern archaeologists..
Yes,Budge did state that the AE BELIEFS WERE FOUND IN Africa BUT...he was a Darwinist and believed in the gradual evolution of man as well as natural societal concepts,religious beliefs,languages etc..
Main problem here is that even in pre-dynastic periods hieroglyphs were already fully formed !
Yes,ancient petro-hieroglyphs have been found and modern day archaeologists are having a hard time to prove that they were the original form..
They forget about the THRACIAN SCRIPT THAT IS AT LEAST 5,000 BC
Dr S. Guide states that it was the first form of the hieroglyphs..However as he was able to decipher this script on account of the knowledge of the hieroglyphs simply means that this Thracian script was an adaption of the hieroglyphic script..
This conception of "me ancestors" FIRST IS SO INGRAINED THAT IT HAS LEAD TO ABSURDITIES..like aNative Indian tribe trying to prevent the analysis of a 9,000 yrs old skeleton as it was "their ancestor" after all,etc..
Heck,now you have Bosnians claiming that as the pyramids are in Bsonian,hence it was their "ancestors" that built them and thus showed the AE on how to build the pyramids !
One scholar has even claimed that Bosnian ancestors developped the first writings as some script marks were found on some monoliths..
Again,anyone residing in Egypt willing to ask said authorities as to when they will "egyptize" the imposed westernized names..?
If that is too much why not start by imposing the Arabic name for Cairo,etc......
And denounce the upcoming museum devoted to monotheism that Akhenaton founded ? The Egyptian government is spending millions on such follies...
Guess the majority if muslim Egyptians are too busy making their 5 daily trips to the mosk to notice anything..
Note-The benefits of resurgence of Islam in Bosnia-a person I know recently returned to Sarajevo to visit his family and when out of the airport he could not get a taxi as all the drivers were too busy making their 5 daily trips to the mosk-he had to wait for hours...
Posts: 305 | Registered: May 2006
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posted
The point is that humanity originating in Africa originated many concepts and patterns of belief that are reflected in AE cosmology.
Posts: 8893 | Registered: May 2005
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As for the majority of the AE were blacks-well let us look at their religion-I fail to see its counterpart in "Black Africa"...
Now of course, that premise makes no sense, not to mention that you failed to take into account, the fact that Kemetic cosmology underwent evolution or changes over the course of proto-dynastic period to the late dynastic period.
In any case, material is available to those who seek to avail themselves of it...
[*]Kingship:
The Rainmaker concept Among the Lulubo and Lokoya, responsibility for the various aspects of the natural environment that can be critical for community survival is allocated to the different clans. In case of a crisis (drought, infertility) the clan associated with the problem, is the target of investigations. The main investigation strategy is to check, one by one, the quarrels members of that clan have been involved in. When such a conflict has been identified, a solution is suggested: by way of reconciliation or restitution. Of particular interest are provocations of the responsible clan official. If a settlement of the dispute fails to bring the required result, there will be more rounds of investigation. If no solution is found the official of the clan associated with the disorder will be suspected of deliberately sabotaging the community. Accusations and counter-accusations will be thrown back and forth. The clan-official stands face-to-face with the community. If the disaster subsides, and if he uses the expectations focused on him cleverly, he may come out as a more powerful and wealthier member of the community. If the disaster prolongs, and there are no other candidates left to be blamed, he must be killed. He ends up as the scapegoat of his community.
This type of drama is most elaborate in the case of the Rainmaker. Of the various public concerns the weather has the greatest dramatic potential. Rains are capricious and localised. Rain falls over a period of 9 months. Its timeliness is a precondition for the two main harvests. The tension is particularly high in June when the first crop is about to be harvested and the annual period of hunger is peaking. The power of Rainmakers is built on this suspense. If they manage the rains well they gain in prestige. If the rains fail the community turns against its Rainmaker blaming him or her of drought. For as long as the drought persists, the confrontation between the king and his community will escalate. The process follows the steps listed in the attached table. It may ultimately lead to the Rainmaker being killed. In the area I studied I identified 26 cases of accomplished killings of kings within living memory. As the crisis deepens and the need for a solution rises all members of the community, including women and children, are gradually drawn into the process. It is the most dramatic manifestation of the community acting as a unified entity…
The clan-leaders, Rainmakers, the Master of the Bush, Master of the Soil, the Master of Birds etc. are given recognition by being given designated parts of game after a hunt, the first catch of white ants, etc. They may be reminded of their responsibility by an annual sacrifice at the beginning of the season. Clan- officials are also called on on a private basis: to bless a newly cleared field, heal barrenness, to protect against pests…
Between the different ecological responsibilities, rain is the most important. The importance not only depends on its practical importance for agriculture but also on its potential for generating social consensus during a period of crisis. While the Rainmaker usually shares the title of ‘King’ (Lulubo ‘osi’, Lokoya, ‘ohobu’ Lotuho ‘hobu’) with two or three other officials (usually fertility and soil) their cosmological position as ‘kings of heaven’ is matched by the highest social status.
Reciprocity in the management of natural order may be negative as well as positive. If the members of the community provoke the clan official, disorder will follow: leopards may turn up at unusual places, the soil will turn infertile, and women have miscarriages. Initial solutions for addressing such disorder are through mechanisms of exchange, by way of restitution and restoration. However the reciprocity is not between the community and the environment but between different clans using their ecological powers to blackmail others and create dependency…
In few ethnographic areas is the continuity between kingship and divinity, captured in Rene Girard’s famous phrase that “gods are dead kings as much as sacred kings are gods who have not yet died”, so easily visible as in the Nilotic world. The death of the Eastern Nilotic Rainmaker/King plays a key role. If he dies as a victim of the crowd, his death is expected to release the rain and to re-activate ecological normality. If the King dies a non-violent death his powers will remain active for at least one complete season. For that period the tomb will be the object of ritual attention. For about one year after his death the King will not be succeeded. The dead King reigns. Before the new rainy season, after the tomb has been flattened, a new person will take over. We could say that these kings enjoy a short-lived divinity. The power of the king and that of divinity are continuous. The same terms are used for both. To say that a certain rainmaker’s powers are effective the Lulubo will say: the man is really ‘ juok’ . “Juok’ is the word used for God
Source: http://www.bezinningscentrum.nl/teksten/girard/s/Simonse_Simon_1.htm ... an interesting piece that goes over the impact of ecological situations on interaction within communities and visa versa, how that ties into Kingship and ritualisation. The above is the example for the Rainmaker.
"Here is an excerpt from a book by Cyril Aldred about the rainmaker king:
But although the purely archeological evidence might appear to demonstrate a parallel development in the two areas, we know that in fact this, though superfically existing in material culture, was not the product of indentical societies, nor was it leading to such state of affairs. In Mesopotamia the beginnings of little independent city-states under tutelary gods, rulers, councils and assemblies are perceptible, though later to be submerged in a familar pattern of oriental despotism, but in Egypt from the beginning we are able to glimpse that essentially African figure, the omnipotent, rainmaking, god-king. The prehistoric cheiftain, a rainmaker and medicine-man, with magic power over the weather and therefore able to keep his people in health and prosperity becomes with the founding of the first, the Pharoah, a divine king being in command over the Nile and able to substain and protect the notion."
page 9
Cyril Aldred Egypt to the End of the Old Kingdom
following text taken from The Dawn of Civilization by Professor Stuart Piggott
Indeed, that the pharaoh was not only a king but concieved as a god by his people is strikingly similar to many societies in 'Sub-Saharan' Africa. Also, whereas many African kings were believed to be invested in supernatural powers as to make rain, interestingly the Pharaoh was believed to have the power to make the Nile flood! Considering that Egypt was a desert land without rain, it makes alot of sense.
As part of their religious beliefs, the Egyptians also had animal totems that symbolized their gods and spirits. Note that even early Western scholars could not deny the African nature of such a belief and therefore attributed this facet of Egyptian relgion to "primitive negro" predecessors!
Let us not forget the Egyptian belief in individuals possessing multiples spirits or spiritual aspects found in other African religious as well as the belief in and use of magic usually with the use of symbolic figures or 'dolls' similar to West African Voodoo or Vodun.
There are many, many, more aspects of Egyptian religion that are undeniably African. So much so, it's actually yet sadly humorous the lengths at which Eurocentrics deny Egypt's African identity.
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:Originally posted by ray2006:
AE- yes many pharaons were indeed black,many were not,others were of mixed origin-interesting that we seem to know little about the "Libyans",some of which later became pharaons,etc..
You make it sound that pharaohs were fifty fifty between "blacks" and "non-blacks"(?); so,
1) How do you actually quantify "many" here?
2) Are the "black" ones and "non-black" ones native Egyptians?
By the way, can you answer these questions??
Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ray2006: That the AE were Blacks- that is over simplification
How so? If one said the ancient Germans were white, would that be over-simplification??
quote:Heck look up at present day Greeks-they look more like Turks than the Ancient Greeks
Have you even seen ancient Greek portraits and other depcitions?? If so, then you would realize that modern Greeks look no different from their ancient ancestors.
Also, if you knew about the history or rather prehistory of Greece, you would know that Greeks and Turks share a common ancestry that goes back long before 'Classical' times.
quote:Also one of the ancient Greek tribes like the Dorians had green eyes and red hair; cannot say that I see much Greeks of that complexion..
I have heard of the earliest Greek tribe, the Achaeans having blonde hair and gray eyes but not of the Dorians having such features you just described. What source did you hear that from?
Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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