posted
The pages from Diop show seven usages of KM.t and km.t in words for people.
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Diop didnt do the translation. The translation comes from two European sources, one German the other French, they being 1. the Worterbuch der Agyptischen Sprache and 2. the Prolegomenes a letude de la religion egyptienne.
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The determinatives seated man and\or seated woman mean people.
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In direct literal translation km.t.nwt means black nation, where the root km (black) is an adjective suffixed by t which makes km.t a feminine noun whose meaning 'black nation' is indicated by the determinative nwt. Since km.t.nwt is a noun it can't be an adjective referring to the color of soil since no determinative for soil is given. When km.t.nwt is literally translated as the black land, the word land can only mean 'country' in the sense of 'nation.' If land in the sense of soil was meant, the word ta would precede km.t, something I have yet to see in a mdw ntr text.
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posted
This is the glyph Ta, Gardiners N16 It means land and appears at the front of words like Ta Meri.
This is the glyph xAst, Gardiners N25 It means land and appears at the end of words like Khurru or Kush.
This is the glyph niwt, Gardiners O49 It means city, town, etc,, and appears at the end of the word KM.t. Note that KM.t can appear with other determinatives not just only with nwt.
The problem enters with our concept of the word land which can mean a parcel of land or a country or nation. The Kmtyw marked the distinction because nwt never means a parcel of land, it always mean a crossroads village town city nation, etc.
Please provide an example from a mdw ntr text where the nwt determinative means soil. What hieroglyphic dictionary gives soil as the meaning of nwt which is a glyph that depicts a crossroads not a field or a desert or some such?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Precisely why cannot mean black land in the sense of a parcel of land which happens to be black in color. Nwt means crossroads, village, town, city, nation. Hence logically means 'Black nation' not 'black piece of land.'
Except in this instance of deliberate obfuscation, please show texts where nwt is translated as 'land' instead of 'crossroads.' The dictionary entry for nwt is village, town, city not land. The dictionary entries for t3 and smt are land.
Further, the codage system classes niwt under O (buildings) not in the N (heaven earth and water) class where t3 and x3st are categorized. Logic dictates that KM.t.nwt cannot mean 'black land' both according to codage class and according to grammar where KM.t in KM.t.nwt is indeed a feminine noun and is not an adjective. The name of a nation is always a noun never an adjective.
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Kahun Papyri - Literary Texts - Plate 2 Fragments of a Hymn to Usertesen III see outlined red rectangle at stanza 2 line 4
Kahun Papyri - Literary Texts - Plate 3 Fragments of a Hymn to Usertesen III stanza 4 lines 3 & 5
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Col4: k-m.t{nwt} d-sh-r.t{nwt} AKH [Black community. Red community.
Col5: (+kh){scroll} n t-n{plural} HQA.w{plural} RA [Beatification to ye subjects (of) Ra!
The "four types" -- or better, the "subjects of Ra" -- scene depicts the sun in the 5th night hour with Heru addressing the dead. He verbally divides them into the blacks (Nile Valley folk, i.e., Egyptians and Nehesis) under his protection, and the reds (folk dwelling east or west of the Nile) under Sekhet's protection.
Heru is addressing all four types, first with a general intro to the entire party of the afterlife dead (who died that day) still in their shrouds. He "beatifies" them, reanimates them with "spirit" (breath/wind), and releases them from their shrouds. Then after all that he addresses each group in turn speaking of the origins of their creation and assigning their "patron" deity. First the RT RMTW and then in from sunrise to sunset order the AAMW, NHHSW, and TMHHW .
The NWT ideogram means neither 'people' nor 'land.' This has been explained a few times already and there's a post in the archive with the subject header "KMT NWT" detailing this. The glyph depicts a crossroads indicating a village or city, i.e. a settlement or habitation. thus the use of it to mean 'community' in its broad application for the corpus of the dead. It always appears as the determinative following the name of a city.
The astute among us instantly see I've successfully commandeered the intial posts of this page making my tour de force the first thing a surfer will see and not allowing scholarship to be burried under fearful filibustering from ferengi fools who no nothing.
Capice?
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: You, obviously.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: OK who's going to be fool enough to give this hater the reaction and attention he so doesn't deserve?
quote:Originally posted by Kemp: Khemet translates to white people.
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posted
Thanks alTakruri very exhaustive and irrefutable presentation of the facts.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
This is why any book you'd write on Egypt would be less worth than the paper it'd be printed on. You're too new to the topic to contribute anything worthwhile or new.
In this instance instead holding to clarity you introduce more confusion. Now listen and learn.
Since the beginning of translating hieroglyphics the glyph for KM was known as representing crocodile scales. Centuries before your people ever saw and recognized the hieroglyph for KM they were calling Egypt the black land due to an assessment by Herodotus on Egypt being the gift of the Nile from the silt deposited on its shores after its traveling downstream from the Black Nile in the season of inundation.
This is the only thing 'top scholars' have to back themselves up on KN.t meaning black land. They cannot do it from the AEL texts, only from Greek observations.
But our interest is not on continuing Greek assessments but on proper translation of hieroglyphics refering to KM.t as the name of a people, a nation, and a region belonging to the black community.
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: IIRC, the argument for Kmt being a reference to soil comes from the belief that the glyph for Kmt represents a riverbank.
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posted
I believe the crossroads symbol also refers to fertile soil. Thus the symbol for black{the crockadile skin) and the crossroads symbol meaning also fertile soil would be the equivalent to black fertile soil. The symbol for black has also a possible meaning as for the limit of something. This could mean the limit of the black fertile soil as being the limit of their homeland. The limit being the black fertile soil of the Nile and never the red sand of the desert.
Posts: 527 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2009
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posted
Move beyond simple belief (this is not religion we're dealing with here but etymology) to facts. From the dictionary ungrasped by your simple mind
This is the glyph niwt, Gardiners O49 It means city, town, etc,, and appears at the end of the word KM.t. Note that KM.t can appear with other determinatives not just only with nwt.
Further, the codage system classes niwt under O (buildings) not in the N (heaven earth and water) class where t3 and x3st are categorized. Logic dictates that KM.t.nwt cannot mean 'black land' both according to codage class and according to grammar where KM.t in KM.t.nwt is indeed a feminine noun and is not an adjective.
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posted
Remetch en kermit or people of the black land. There is more than one reference to how the people of Egypt viewed their homeland. The reference to black land is how they percieved the color of their land which was black as to the color of the soil.
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posted
Shall we discuss the alternatives? The version you present is open to interpretation.
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quote:Originally posted by Simple Girl: Remetch en kermit or people of the black land. There is more than one reference to how the people of Egypt viewed their homeland. The reference to black land is how they percieved the color of their land which was black as to the color of the soil.
Here's the thing, We can talk about how the ancient Kamu viewed their land but this discussion is about a word which is KM.T. The issue still stand, how does one find the word 'Land/Soil' in the word KM.T. How one viewed his land deals with their traditions, religious affiliations and politics. The Egyptians called their land 'Ta Mery'. The 'black Soil/Land' would have read 'Kam Ta' and nothing different.
What do you propose to be the answer and can you accomplish what Pat couldn't?
Posts: 951 | From: where rules end and freedom begins | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
So show me an Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphic text with the words/phrase 'black land' if you please. I've waited over four years and no one layman or professional has done it yet.
BTW your mispelled 'Remetch en kermit' translates literally as 'People of black' i.e., black people. 'Remetch en kermit' contains no word for land, thus land is only an interpretive interjection based on previous bias.
Now get to work fulfilling my above request!
quote:Originally posted by Simple Girl: Remetch en kermit or people of the black land. There is more than one reference to how the people of Egypt viewed their homeland. The reference to black land is how they percieved the color of their land which was black as to the color of the soil.
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posted
have never denied a Black presence in Egypt. The question is what position they had in the empire. Were they servants, slaves, mercenaries, soldiers, etc? Did they have important positions in Egypt like architect, scientist, scribes, etc? You can find Blacks in ancient Greece and Rome as well but they were not the builders of these civilizations and the same can apply to Egypt.
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posted
They were all of the above plus being the majority population, It was the lite-skinned forigners you should ask that question of.Add to your job list the majority of rulers and upper classes untill the Assyrians,Persians,Greeks,Romans,Arabs,French,English,took direct control of the country.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Betty, I am weary of this argument. Egyptologists of all races agree it is black land. Egyptologists are scholars and are not biased. That idea is complete silly nonsense.
Egyptologist of ALL races don't agree that it is black land; those who do agree that it is black land have the context wrong. Egyptologists and/or Scholars are definitely bias that is why their specialty is EGYPT and EGYPTOLOGY. Everyone is bias; you can't escaped that. Egyptologist and scholars are still human. What I said wasn't an idea it is hard core facts and you know it. Your thoughts are complete silly nonsense.
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Find me mainstram Egyptologists who say it is something other than Black land.
Search yourself...you keep asking people to present something to you but I haven't yet see you present anything. Find me ALL "mainstream" Egyptologist who say it is Black Land.
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posted
^ Then where do we get our sources from??! Are you telling me all those documents we post as well as definitions were all made up?! Are you saying those do not come from scholars in the field of Egyptian language like Budge or Gardiner??!
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A challenge to eurocentrists was proposed to prove kemet means black people or black nation rather than black land.Nobody here has been able to prove the black land non sense other than non sense appeal to authority.
This topic has shown us how eurocentrism rests not in scientific investigation of facts but falsification of history right from taking Kemet out of afrika to the fabrication of Greece.
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posted
Ninsense? the only thing that is nonsese is you mentu. Every mainstream scholar says it is black land. They have obviously already put the issue to rest. Nobody is debating but you.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
TheAmericanIdiot - (arms folded across chest, defiant) - The King sayeth that the earth is flat! You disputeth His Majesty?
CommonSense - No, I will not argue against His Majesty, but...
TheAmericanIdiot - But what peasant?
CommonSense - ...this man Magellan, his ships sailed months ago from Spain in one direction and arrived a few days ago from the opposite direction! How could he do that if the earth is flat?
TheAmericanIdiot - The King sayeth that the earth is flat! Do you or this Magellan disputeth His Majesty?
quote:Originally posted by Kemp: have never denied a Black presence in Egypt. The question is what position they had in the empire.
They *were* the empire. Furthermore the empire was black (i.e. Km.t nwt).
We would see them as scribes, viziers, monarchs, farmers, bakers, brewers, soldiers, spies, doctors, lawyers and mercenaries.
And they also hired Medjay mercenaries and Ta Seti experts in archery as bowmen.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
Wally, You can live in this fantasy land you have created if it makes you feel good. Mainstream academia have already established it is "black land." Your lack of ability to post work by a single mainstram scholar exposes your silly position or lack there of. The world is not listening to you son.
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quote:Originally posted by mentu: A challenge to eurocentrists was proposed to prove kemet means black people or black nation rather than black land.Nobody here has been able to prove the black land non sense other than non sense appeal to authority.
This topic has shown us how eurocentrism rests not in scientific investigation of facts but falsification of history right from taking Kemet out of afrika to the fabrication of Greece.
posted
^ what a retard! since you have no answer to bettyboo you throw it back at her. I just don't know why anybody takes your dumbass seriously here. lol
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Well Betty, if you know them , post them.
Your mind is so cunning--just like a whitey. I asked you to post them and I will not do that favor for you.
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quote:Originally posted by Bogle: ^ what a retard! since you have no answer to bettyboo you throw it back at her. I just don't know why anybody takes your dumbass seriously here. lol
Who said anyone here takes him seriously??! LOLPosts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
The illogical argument and folly of the word Kmt meaning black land can also be seen in the fact that Kmt or Km, meaning black, is alleged to be the basis of the Hebrew word Ham, which is supposed to represent the black father of North East Africans. At some point it was associated with Min, who was often depicted as a black diety with an erect penis. Now of course Min was also deification of the fact of the seed of the black man is what populated the Nile as an ancestor, as well as the fertile silt that came from inner Africa that made plants grow. The two things go together. Yet and still in recounting the Hebrew tradition, that nonsense of land again comes into play, even when obviously we are talking about a word used in reference to people, not land.
quote: According to the bible, Ham was one of the sons of Noah who moved southwest into Africa and parts of the near Middle East, and was the forefather of the nations there. The Bible refers to Egypt as "the land of Ham" in (Psalms 78:51; 105:23,27; 106:22; 1Ch 4:40). The Hebrew word for Egypt was Mizraim (probably literally meaning the two lands), and was the name of one of Ham's sons. The Egyptian word for Egypt was Kemet (or Kmt), meaning "black land" (in reference to the fertile dark soil along the Nile Valley).[4][5][6] Ham could plausibly be a name derived from Khem, or vice versa, via sound change, due to the change in language between Egyptian and Hebrew, corresponding to the well known phonological change of /k/ into /x/ (voiceless velar fricative) into /h/. The names of Ham's other children correspond to regions within Egyptian influence - Kush, Canaan, and Phut (probably identical with the Pitu, a Libyan tribe, though often associated with Punt, an ancient name for Benadir). ... Nevertheless, since Khem (meaning black) was normally used to describe the fertile soils by the Nile, it was sometimes used as an epithet for Min, as the god of fertility. Since Khem was also an Egyptian name for Egypt (precisely because it described the soil of the Nile valley), there is also an association with Ham, who represented the forefather of the north-east African nations including Egypt.
From: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ham_(son_of_Noah)
Obviously Khem as the basis for the word Ham has nothing to do with soil, as HAM is a reference to black people, not soil. It is a symbol of a person as the eponymous ancestor of a people and the first person to carry their traits or features. This is EXACTLY how the ancient Kemities viewed their deities, including Min.
Min is the universe itself and a symbolic reference to the seed or semen of creation or infinite creative force latent in the substance of the infinite universe. In that sense he is the symbolic aspect of Amun or "the gods" who created all things. He is the essence of male sexuality and male reproduction. He is symbolic of the creation of mankind and reproduction through the seed. He is symbolically and literally a reference to the fact of the black African origin of all humans and therefore the basis of gods seed ("will power") in man. In that sense he is the eponymous ancestor of the Egyptians themselves.
But again, note that the symbolic nature of Hebrew myth in trying to center the entire world and creation around HEBREW patriarchs is simply a reflection of a people's belief in themselves as the center of the world. However, the Egyptian belief of the black EARTH that was the basis of the seed that created the first man, the black man as the ancestor of all humans and the genetic basis of all mankind is a reflection of fact.
But this form of symbolism and national identity are the cause for all of this controversy over these terms. It is a dichotomy between the "black nation" as the literal father and mother of all nations and the "white nation" as the rebellious offspring determined to remake the earth in its own image. But in order to make their rule and national identity legitimate they must somehow claim to be the fathers because that is the basis of their national mythology. Hence they have to lay claim to Egypt and downplay the "black nation" as meaning anything other than soil, because to do otherwise would contradict the whole symbolic Abrahamic inspired concept of the "white nation" that is symbolic of any notion created and populated by god's "chosen" people, the "white nation". It is this sense of agency that causes them to lash out and decry anything that will challenge their ability to act on their own behalf. But at the end of the day it is still all simply a fake memory based on inherited and appropriated symbolism from cultures more ancient than their own that they DID NOT originate.
In fact this symbolic form of ancestral origins and family lineage symbolizing the right to rule of the King goes straight back to Africa. The earliest palettes from Egypt contained symbolic references to both the placenta of the Kings Mother and Min as the seed of the king's father. This is associated with the king smiting his enemies and bringing them under his rule. In this sense the king eventually becomes literally the seed of the earth and power of the earth itself. He is the power of the inundation, the power of the life force and the Nile. THAT is what you see in the Hymns posted above. The Pharaoh is the power of Maat to keep the world in balance, where the black Nation is the basis of the ORDER in the universe (I am sure you have seen that before). Hence the Egyptian view of the world as order and chaos, where Egypt symolised order and the territories surrounding Egypt represented chaos.
Chaos in this sense became synonymous with the lands of the foreigners and the desert, which was a symbol of death. Therefore just as the king and the people of Egypt (his seed or flock) represented Egypt and the fertility of the Nile itself (the people of the nation), so to did the people of the deserts and foreign land represent chaos and a challenge to the cosmic order. Hence when you read that the King took hold of the "red lands" they aren't talking about the deserts east and west of Egypt, they are talking about the ENEMIES who had invaded Egypt. The deserts they are talking about aren't the deserts OF EGYPT, but the deserted foreign lands of CHAOS that lie outside of the borders of Egypt, from which foreigners as agents of chaos came and destroyed the fertility and order of the land and the nation (the people) itself, causing the people to starve. Hence the King "swept down the nile LIKE A FLOOD" and "FED THE PEOPLE" and took hold of the RED LANDS and put them in their place (according to Maat).
quote: From Egypt's theological and ideological perspectives, all lands and people have value, as products - like the Egyptians themselves - of the creator, so long as they function in accordance with the hierarchical position assigned them in cosmos, the created order often referred to as the personification, Maat. That hierarchy runs from the deities and their ruler, the lord of the cosmos - typically the sun god Ra in a variety of manifestations - down through Egyptians, then foreigners and finally the world of nature. Thus foreigners, in terrestrial terms, lie on the frontier between human (the Egyptians) and non-human(nature, with its beasts, birds and reptiles). Like the world of nature, foreigners are expected to provide support and sustenance to Egypt and its deities, under whose control they, in theory, lie.
However, any land can be rebellious, i.e. can refuse to service the interests of the Egyptian king; it may resist, perhaps militarily, Egyptian influence, control or attack, and may even take the initiative, attacking Egyptian forces abroad, or attempting to invade Egypt itself. In all three circumstances 'rebels', from the cosmographic and ideological perspective, take on the character of Isfet, the limitless formlessness surrounding cosmos and generating hostile forces - demons and monsters - that ceaselessly attempt to abort the orderly, live giving cycle of the sun god around cosmos and thus bring cosmos as a whole, and its carefully structured hierarchy, to an end. In these circumstances, rebellious, defiant or invasive foreigners become equivalent to the wild beasts and birds of the natural world, and the demons and monsters that manifest aggressive chaotic force on the cosmic level.
Apep the serpent as a symbol of Apep the Hyksos king are good examples of this.
quote: The alien nature of the foreign, and the affinity to that which relates to chaos, is manifest in the generic terms the Egyptians applied to them. A foreign land was a word written with a depiction of a three peaked, desert mountain ridge with a strip of green - the Nile Valley - at its foot. This indicates that foreigners lay beyond the ideal environmental and human order, i.e. the Egyptian Nile Valley and its inhabitants, and hence were on the frontier between order and chaos; and they lay behind the mountains defining the horizon, in a region wherein the sun god prepared himself for his renewal and re-ascent every day, but also had to be defended against the particularly intensive attack of the demonic, with which foreigners were to be identified. Another term which included foreign lands was "the nine bows", written as a bow with nine strokes underneath, which, however, can also be read as the 'diffuse and multiple lands', highlighting chaotic aspects of foreigners that could be taken to distinguish them from the order presented by Egypt AND ITS PEOPLE.
Hence the "red lands" symbolizes the lands of chaos AND THE PEOPLE IN IT as forces of chaos, RED DEMONS and SERPENTS intent on destroying the order of the NATION itself and its people. It is not simply a reference to the desert outside the fertile areas of the Nile.
This association between the Red people and RED LANDS conquered by the King as enemies of order and a threat to his rule is seen plainly here:
Hence the popular passages tying Kmt as soil to Deshret as "red desert" meaning desert next to the fertile valley and NOT references to people ARE NON SENSE. Kmt means black nation and black people as much as 'red land' is a reference to the land and PEOPLE who are foreign to Egypt and a threat to its stability. It does not simply mean the deserts IN EGYPT on either side of the Nile Valley as a reference to SOIL. It is a symbol of contrasts, order/chaos, black/red, native/foreign and black/white.
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posted
^The logic inherent in this statement is so loony that I can't even entertain it other than to refer to it as such. You obviously have never finished your GE classes in CT, assuming that you've ever attended a college or university in your life (which I doubt VERY seriously).
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The red land is LITERALLY obvious in this image. This image from a temple for Ramses II at Abydos is a pictorial representation of what is TEXTUALLY written in the Hymn to Senwosret III. It LITERALLY shows the hieroglyph for land with a red color, the LITERAL meaning of what RED LAND refers to and right above it you see the PERSONIFICATION of those RED LANDS the PEOPLE themselves. Above this is the pharaoh, shown with the green vegetation of the Nile, along with Cows and other signs of earthly prosperity and LIFE, as a symbol of the PROTECTOR of the seed and the LIFE and NOURISHMENT of the country. The RED LANDS are not a reference to the deserts IN EGYPT, they are a reference to FOREIGNERS from FOREIGN LANDS and FOREIGN DESERTS surrounding Egypt THE NATION.
Again, a translation of the Hymn to Senwosret III from the hieroglyphic passage to the right of the image below. Read right to left top to bottom to follow the translation below:
quote: (1) He came to us to take the Southland: the Double-Crown was fastened to his head!
He came and gathered the Two Lands: he joined the Sedge to the Bee!
He came and ruled the Black Land: he took the Red Land to himself!
He came and guarded the Two Lands: he gave peace to the Two Shores!
(5) He came and nourished the Black Land: he removed its needs!
He came and nourished the people: he gave breath to his subjects' throats!
He came and trampled foreign lands, he smote the Bowmen who ignored his terror!
He came and fought [on] his frontier: he rescued him who had been robbed!
He came and [showed the power of his arms]: glorying in what his might had brought!
(10) He came [to let us raise] our youths: inter our old ones [by his will].
You will see that where they have translated "black land" there is no heiroglyph for land at all. Look at the third line down from the top and you will see the sign being referred to as black land. It is the sign with the man and woman over 3 tick marks and a lump of coal. The Niwt determinative for nation or polity isn't present. Hence, the determinitive is PEOPLE following the term KM which means black + people= black people. Now a little more to the left on the same line you will see an Ibis and an Eye and a symbol for land with three hills (as in the image above). THAT is where it says "red land", but that the hieroglyph for LAND is used.
The translation provided says: He came and ruled the Black Land: he took the Red Land to himself!
It SHOULD say:
He came and ruled the black people: he (conquered) the red lands himself.
Meaning he conquered the lands of the foreigners as seen in the image at the top of this post.
And again, two lines down (5) you see the same pattern, a lump of coal followed by PEOPLE, which means BLACK PEOPLE and the translation below: (5) He came and nourished the Black Land: he removed its needs!
Which is silly. You don't feed dirt and you don't nourish it. You feed and nourish PEOPLE.
Hence it LITERALLY says:
He came and nourished the BLACK PEOPLE: he removed their needs.
More scenes from Abydos showing Ramses with offerings as symbolic of his role of protector and responsible for the nourishment and well being of the people and protector of the seed (animal husbandry and agriculture Min/Geb/Osiris):
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
cannot mean black land in the sense of a 
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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