quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: then how would the Nahasi fit in ?
also many of the Levantines have somewhat dark skin [/QB]
What is the inconsistency? Nehesi has nothing to do with it and may even be a relatively new term, for all we know. I'm talking about proto-Egyptic speakers interacting with lighter skinned groups outside of Africa. Proto-Egyptic speakers encounter light skinned groups x, y and z and start to mould their self-image accordingly.
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Faith-based partisans aside, I will say this to those in the forum who actually use their brain when it comes to weighing interpretations, rather than sentiment, whim and dogma: since the earliest Egyptians would have interacted with light skinned populations in the Levant and elsewhere, they could have been made self-concious of their dark skin through interaction and have adopted this external view as an exonym, really no different from how African Americans began to take up the "black" self-label through interaction with non-Africans.
Yes, it's technically possible. Those are all assumptions. That's not the point of view of most linguists and egyptologists.
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^I have nothing to say to you, other than pointing out the blatant pretentiousness in your posts, when I see fit.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^I have nothing to say to you, other than pointing out the blatant pretentiousness in your posts, when I see fit.
Funny coming from somebody who tries to convince people that most linguists and egyptologists are wrong with some "could have" "would have". You're a cry baby and an idiot.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Faith-based partisans aside, I will say this to those in the forum who actually use their brain when it comes to weighing interpretations, rather than sentiment, whim and dogma: since the earliest Egyptians would have interacted with light skinned populations in the Levant and elsewhere, they could have been made self-concious of their dark skin through interaction and have adopted this external view as an exonym, really no different from how African Americans began to take up the "black" self-label through interaction with non-Africans. [/QB]
Those who can read got the general gist of my post and know that I haven't said anything definite here about any of the interpretations laid out in this thread, and that my proposal wasn't meant to be anything more than a potential answer to the sentiment expressed in this thread that it would somehow be odd for proto-Egyptic speakers to self- identify as black in continent where dark is the norm. Those with some sense in them know that going beyond such a proposal and imply certainty in regards to that proposal, where it can't be given, would be more like partisans who habitually choose interpretations based on whims and faiths. It's up to anyone to form their own judgements about it; I really don't care whether the next man finds it credible.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Those who can read got the general gist of my post and know that I haven't said anything definite here about any of the interpretations laid out in this thread,
I didn't either. That's why I used 'personally', 'I', 'could' and 'sounds like'. As I said, your point of view is technically possible but it's all based on assumptions. It's your personal opinion. It's NOT the the point of view of most linguists and egyptologists and it would take more than 'could have' 'would have' to convince me otherwise.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: then how would the Nahasi fit in ?
also many of the Levantines have somewhat dark skin
What is the inconsistency? Nehesi has nothing to do with it and may even be a relatively new term, for all we know. I'm talking about proto-Egyptic speakers interacting with lighter skinned groups outside of Africa. Proto-Egyptic speakers encounter light skinned groups x, y and z and start to mould their self-image accordingly. [/QB]
Ok maybe but at least in recent times there are many Middle Easterners not that far off in skin tone from some of the AEs so the light skinned groups would have to be particularly specified and of enough power that Egyptians would feel need to distinguish themselves from them based on skin color.
It's too speculative. It would have to be a way of speaking about people, their skin and skin as a people identifer as a tradition in the Egyptian texts
usually the ancients might refer to a person's skin tone when the context is skin tone
"black skinned person"
But it seems it a relatively modern practice to call somebody a "black person" as a type of person directly and without context to a discussion on skin color or other physical attributes
I haven't seen examples in ancient writing where a color is put directly besides a word for person (or man or woman) perhaps until relatively later time, example Al-Jahiz's 9th century item Superiority Of The Blacks To The Whites
There has to be an established tradition in far earlier Egyptian texts to describe a people by skin color but where are the people of the South described this way, Kushites and so on ? I don't see it
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We've already been through this. These people are genetically NOT carriers of as many ancestral skin colour related alleles as you're making it out to be. A good deal of their dark skin comes from tanning, whereas the Egyptians would have been dark, independent of any tanning. This has been both genetically confirmed by testing mummies for skin related genes, as well as microscopic observations of quote: "cells packed with melanin". I don't plan on going back and forth on this non- sense w/you. Additionally, you seem to be lost on my earlier proposal that this self-view would have originated with early Egyptic speakers, not dynastic Egyptic speakers.
quote:Originally posted by Wally: ...this posting, which I inadvertently started as a new topic, should have actually been posted here because it reflects the continuing scientific investigations stemming from the 1974 Cairo conference...It's an update:
quote:Originally posted by Wally: This site was provided by Nehesy. I used Google translate to give us the English translation from the French...
Letter from Cairo
quote:SOME GENETIC FEATURES OF ANCIENT EGYPTIANS
As part of research conducted by the Cairo University in collaboration with the Higher Council of Antiquities, it has been possible to achieve the anthropological characteristics of the Pharaohs.
According to preliminary indications, we reached a number of traits of the Pharaohs. It was possible to identify genes for size, color and eye color and hair of the king in the Pharaonic era in which samples were collected. They were placed on mummies in sarcophagi. A group of researchers has been able to separate those genes that have proven that the ancient Egyptians were not taller as previously thought. Their size was rather average, with the exception of Ramses II, whose analysis of genes has proven to be cut.
It has also been demonstrated that his skin was brown and his hair was black, not red. The color red has been found on his mummy is due to a dye (probably henna). His eyes were black with a slight tinge of brown.
Amenhotep III was short of stature, the color of his skin was a light brown. His eyes and his hair was black dark. These features show that the kings were related. All the kings at that time had a common origin in the family tree of the royal family. It is possible to determine a precise dates and times in the future. This research will confirm certain anthropological traits that have been studied before on the Pharaonic mummies. This will give preliminary indications about the traits, diseases and characteristics of the Pharaohs.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: We've already been through this. These people are genetically carriers of as many ancestral alleles as you're making it out to be. They're tanned, whereas the Egyptians would have been dark, independent of tanning. This has been both genetically confirmed by testing mummies for skin related genes, as well as microscopic observations of quote: "cells packed with melanin". I don't plan on going back and forth on this non-sense w/you.
You assume the people above are pale skinned but but they have suntans. I'm not sure you're correct about that.
But anyway the fact is that if all these people are sun tanned that's the way they look in the everday, dark.
So then the assumption is the the Egyptians considered not how they appeared on the everyday level but they still considered them pale skinned people and that innate skin color was important to them as identitiy and that therefore they, the Egyptians felt compelled to therfore distinguish themselves by calling themsleves black skinned people
It's a nice theory but I haven't seen Egyptian texts discussing skin color and ethnicity in this manner
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I'm talking about proto-Egyptic speakers interacting with lighter skinned groups outside of Africa. Proto-Egyptic speakers encounter light skinned groups x, y and z and start to mould their self-image accordingly.
which light skinned groups of this predynatsic period could be candidates?
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: the Egyptians would have been dark, independent of any tanning. This has been both genetically confirmed by testing mummies for skin related genes, as well as microscopic
It may be true but the sample size and technology used to make this assumption broadly about most pre-late ancient Egyptians in general is miniscule. The "packed with melanin" article isn't even mentioned in current or old Egyptology texts. And Diop's methods haven't been verified by other researchers. I say this in context of current Egyptologists who support African origins of Ancient Egypt
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The problem with this analysis is that km.t, when referred to a country, is never without the suffixal -t. Secondly, one has not addressed the concept of paronymy in the Egyptian language. Thirdly, and the most important, the hieroglyphs clearly show the determinatives with irrigated land signs in its earliest attestation. All other variants from that point on is based on that model, nothing to do with blackness. You never see km.t written with ANY of the determinatives which would indicate color, like the curly piece of hair.
When reviewing the living texts, they are always used in reference to a place/location.
Here are all the instances of km.t in the WB.
quote: kmtjw Ägypter Wb V S 128 kmtj [großes Gefäß aus Granit] Wb V S 128 kmt Ägypten Wb V S 126 kmt Ägypter Wb V S 127 kmt (vollständig) Bezahltes Wb V S 128 kmt Schwanz (des Krokodils) Wb V S 130 kmt [Bezeichnung für heilige schwarze Rinder] Wb V S 125 kmt [Göttin (schwarze Kuh)] Wb V S 125 kmt [Gerät] RdE 30 (1978) S 20; Meeks: AL 784397; Meeks: AL 793237 kmt [Krankheit] Wb V S 122 mdt-kmt ägyptische Sprache Wb V S 127 pt-n-kmt [Heliopolis] Wb I S 491 rA-n-kmt ägyptische Sprache Wb V S 127
Notice that km.t with the -t suffix is never defined as the word "black." This is because you will never find in an Egyptian text the word km.t used to describe any color. Like all European Egyptologists who don't understand African languages, they tried to force "black" on every reference of km; the same way all instances of nTr means "god." For instance, let's take the word kmt "the name of sacred black cattle." This is a misinterpretation. It is simply a word for "cattle." It is cognate with the word for cattle in the Nguni languages, ngombi. The /g/ sound is the result of the preceding nasal which weakened the plosive. It's just a word for cow. Examining African languages puts all of these false entries to rest. This is why we need our own dictionaries that corrects these mistakes made by people like Gardiner, Grapow and others who did not examine African languages in the process. Dr. Mubabinge Bilolo has done a good job in starting with his Tshiluba/Egyptian/Coptic dictionary. Also, Dr. Kipkoeech Sambu has a sizable lexicon with Kalenjiin/Egyptian/Coptic. Only by exploring the African languages do we get at the heart of the matter.
km.t = place/land/location/farm/livable land/land with water
km.t DOES NOT = black;
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: KM.t meas neither black people nor black land.
KM.t can be either the feminine of KM or KM as an adjective.
KM (biliteral), spelled k-m (two uniliterals) can mean black and can mean complete/completion.
It takes either a determinative or phrase context to yield black people (rm.t km.t) or black land (ta km.t)
Still I have doubt that people would name their country after the color of their skin. As I said, it sounds more like what outsiders would do like in Sudan, Mauritania, Zanzibar, etc. Naming a country after the color of their soil makes more sense, as well as after the name, in their language, for good livable/arable land. A bit like "The valley" and people from the Valley.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: the Egyptians would have been dark, independent of any tanning. This has been both genetically confirmed by testing mummies for skin related genes, as well as microscopic
It may be true but the sample size and technology used to make this assumption broadly about most pre-late ancient Egyptians in general is miniscule. The "packed with melanin" article isn't even mentioned in current or old Egyptology texts. And Diop's methods haven't been verified by other researchers. I say this in context of current Egyptologists who support African origins of Ancient Egypt [/qb]
Congratulations: you've stooped to a new low of whim-based denial.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Great, now you're derailing the thread. I'm out.
To call me asking you a direct question about a statement you made is physically impossible to be derailing
Anyway this thread was a weak ass bump, just what you had complained of, the same tired old topics gone over and over again, same racial politics
It's like another Godzilla movie, they cant think of anything new
Don't like lioness replies? If I get 4 votes to not post I'll stay away for a week and others can carry on unencombered by my challenges
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I'm talking about proto-Egyptic speakers interacting with lighter skinned groups outside of Africa. Proto-Egyptic speakers encounter light skinned groups x, y and z and start to mould their self-image accordingly.
which light skinned groups of this predynastic period could be candidates?
^^^ you're out because I called your bluff, next batter
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: The problem with this analysis is that km.t, when referred to a country, is never without the suffixal -t. Secondly, one has not addressed the concept of paronymy in the Egyptian language. Thirdly, and the most important, the hieroglyphs clearly show the determinatives with irrigated land signs in its earliest attestation. All other variants from that point on is based on that model, nothing to do with blackness. You never see km.t written with ANY of the determinatives which would indicate color, like the curly piece of hair.
When reviewing the living texts, they are always used in reference to a place/location.
Here are all the instances of km.t in the WB.
quote: kmtjw Ägypter Wb V S 128 kmtj [großes Gefäß aus Granit] Wb V S 128 kmt Ägypten Wb V S 126 kmt Ägypter Wb V S 127 kmt (vollständig) Bezahltes Wb V S 128 kmt Schwanz (des Krokodils) Wb V S 130 kmt [Bezeichnung für heilige schwarze Rinder] Wb V S 125 kmt [Göttin (schwarze Kuh)] Wb V S 125 kmt [Gerät] RdE 30 (1978) S 20; Meeks: AL 784397; Meeks: AL 793237 kmt [Krankheit] Wb V S 122 mdt-kmt ägyptische Sprache Wb V S 127 pt-n-kmt [Heliopolis] Wb I S 491 rA-n-kmt ägyptische Sprache Wb V S 127
Notice that km.t with the -t suffix is never defined as the word "black." This is because you will never find in an Egyptian text the word km.t used to describe any color. Like all European Egyptologists who don't understand African languages, they tried to force "black" on every reference of km; the same way all instances of nTr means "god." For instance, let's take the word kmt "the name of sacred black cattle." This is a misinterpretation. It is simply a word for "cattle." It is cognate with the word for cattle in the Nguni languages, ngombi. The /g/ sound is the result of the preceding nasal which weakened the plosive. It's just a word for cow. Examining African languages puts all of these false entries to rest. This is why we need our own dictionaries that corrects these mistakes made by people like Gardiner, Grapow and others who did not examine African languages in the process. Dr. Mubabinge Bilolo has done a good job in starting with his Tshiluba/Egyptian/Coptic dictionary. Also, Dr. Kipkoeech Sambu has a sizable lexicon with Kalenjiin/Egyptian/Coptic. Only by exploring the African languages do we get at the heart of the matter.
km.t = place/land/location/farm/livable land/land with water
km.t DOES NOT = black;
Interesting thanks for all the info.
How many attestations is there of KMT with the determinative of irrigated land that you know of? What do mainstream linguists and egyptologists say about it? Did they missed it? Is it too new for them?
I agree that having knowledge of African languages can provide knowledge not explored by most linguists and egyptologists (because they don't reconsider the classification of language families and their interrelation). As I said, it's more than probable that African populations sharing a common genetic history (like E-P2/PN2) also shared a common language in the past.
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I am not sure in total. But I cited one study in one of my previous posts. Here is the full citation:
GOELET, Ogden. (1999). "Kemet and Other Egyptian Terms for Their Land." In: R. Chazan, W.W. Hallo, L.H. Schiffman (Eds). Ki Baruch Hu: Ancient Near Eastern, Biblical, and Judaic Studies in Honor of Baruch A. Levine. Eisenbrauns. Winona Lake, Indiana. pp. 23-42.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: I am not sure in total. But I cited one study in one of my previous posts. Here is the full citation:
GOELET, Ogden. (1999). "Kemet and Other Egyptian Terms for Their Land." In: R. Chazan, W.W. Hallo, L.H. Schiffman (Eds). Ki Baruch Hu: Ancient Near Eastern, Biblical, and Judaic Studies in Honor of Baruch A. Levine. Eisenbrauns. Winona Lake, Indiana. pp. 23-42.
It there a few or a lot found yet? Are we talking 1? 2? as much as a dozen?
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quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: I am not sure in total. But I cited one study in one of my previous posts. Here is the full citation:
GOELET, Ogden. (1999). "Kemet and Other Egyptian Terms for Their Land." In: R. Chazan, W.W. Hallo, L.H. Schiffman (Eds). Ki Baruch Hu: Ancient Near Eastern, Biblical, and Judaic Studies in Honor of Baruch A. Levine. Eisenbrauns. Winona Lake, Indiana. pp. 23-42.
Ogden Goelet. Clinical Professor of Middle Eastern and Islamic Studies.
posted
I would assume just a few, but there aren't that many documents in the early period in which km.t was used as a political designation. Both km.t and tA-mrj wasn't used as a place-name until the middle kingdom. Before then Egypt was simply known as xnw "the residence," literally "the interior" (inside).
Even still. Much of the time km.t didn't have any determinative at all. The O49 glyph came later and became the standard. But as I demonstrated before, the N23, N36 and O49 determinatives were interchangeable. In words dealing with land, these determinatives are interchangeable for the same words, as demonstrated with spA.t.
So it wouldn't matter if it was one, two or tweenty. The earliest usage of this term in regards to Egypt, the polity, had the N23 determinative that is vocalized as tA and whose symbol means irrigated land. What people don't realize either is that the version of km.t with the people determinitive only has one instance in the known Egyptian records.
But even this is based off of paronymy. It is a pun. The two people representing "people," but also denoting a "place." In African languages, to "live" anywhere is to be able to "sit" some place. As I stated earlier, the word km.t is two words: *ka "to sit, place, dwell" + -m "an affix denoting water/liquid." The word for to "sit" in many African languages is also repreented as k-m. For example:
ciKomo, nkum, nKam, muKam "to sit, location" shi-Kama "sit, be seated"; "wait, be quiet" –iikala “to sit, to remain, be still”
A synonym in ciLuba is somba “sit, live, reside, conduct, sit down to chat, retire, relax;” Shaali, sòmba1-> el-Badil ⇒ cisòmbelu ≋ cisòmbedi "living room, lounge, residence;" lusòmbèlà ≋ cisòmbedi "where one sits, shelter."
As I note in my publication on kmt
quote: A few terms we want to highlight, that when combined with certain affixes, help to reinforce the k-m root as a territory, land or political entity: shikama (⇒badila) budishikamine(a) "independence, freedom, sovereignty [political] dishikamina "be autonomous, independent;" (Reflective in…) lunshikaminu (<shikama [n + i>nyi] ⇒Badila) "way to stay long in one place or near the same person, being sticky." Km.t (ciKam) therefore is an “independent, autonomous nation.” It would make sense given that this term was used as a national designation after the internal turmoil of the first intermediate period. If we assume that the first intermediate period was a kind of “civil war/strife,” then it would make sense that the uniters sought a name which captured their new found independence.
Remember, before the first intermediate period, according to Diodorus, Egypt was a colony of Nubia/Kush. When they got their indepedence, this is when km.t and tA-mrj become names for Egypt.
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quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: Remember, before the first intermediate period, according to Diodorus, Egypt was a colony of Nubia/Kush. When they got their indepedence, this is when km.t and tA-mrj become names for Egypt. [/QB]
what dynasty? 7th ?
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The testimony from Diodorus Siculus in his Histories book III, is that Egypt itself was a colony of the Kushites. That means from dynasty I to dynasty 11/12 it was under Kushite control. The first intermediate period is a time of internal struggle and civil war set forth by a drought which devastated the country.
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quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: The testimony from Diodorus Siculus in his Histories book III, is that Egypt itself was a colony of the Kushites. That means from dynasty I to dynasty 11/12 it was under Kushite control.
do you believe that? It doesn't correspond to Manetho of a couple centuries earlier
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Yes I believe it because the language and archaeological evidence supports Didodorus' statements. Cemetery L at Qustul supports this contention.
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quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: Yes I believe it because the language and archaeological evidence supports Didodorus' statements. Cemetery L at Qustul supports this contention.
"The earliest known examples of Egyptian royal iconography, such as, e.g., the representation of the Red Crown on a late Naqada I (c. 3500 BC) pottery vessel from Abydos or the triumphal scenes in the painting from Hierakonpolis Tomb 100 (c. 3400-3300 BC) are much older than the Qustul censer. It seems thus that it was the Qustul rulers who adopted symbols of royal authority developed in Egypt and not vice versa."
Török, László. Between Two Worlds : The Frontier Region Between Ancient Nubia and Egypt, 3700 BC-AD 500. In Probleme Der Ägyptologie. Leiden: Brill. 2009. ISBN 9789004171978
Vessel, Predynastic Period, Naqada II, ca. 3450–3300 B.C.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Of course w/t fucking bitch Lyin'Ass back from hell all discourse is liable to get derailed and hi-jacked because posters will not be able to ignore him.
Nehesi? Explained long ago, using scene 30 of the Gate of Teka Hra from the Book of Gates, they too are part of the Black Community(KM.t:nwt). The DSR.t:nwt of that text includes the "Eastern Libyans" and the "Asiatics."
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posted
This says nothing as the "red crown" was a symbol of the polity of what we now call lower Egypt. There was no "lower Egypt" then. The polity of Egypt didn't come from the Delta down, it came from Nubia up and the "white" crown is the one under examination. When the kingdoms united, the "red" crown became an icon of Egypt as whole along side the white crown. In other words, the White crown was NOT a symbol of the Delta and they didn't "borrow" this icon from those in the Delta. Neither did they borrow the other elements that became emblematic of Egypt. The red crown could be older and still wouldn't have any bearings on the fact that the culture of Egypt, including its form of government and language, comes from Sudan as is well known in the historical record. The red crown inclusion is just the Nubians amalgamating the Delta kingdom's iconography into the confederation that the Nubians set up. So one has to be able to know how to read the documentation.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: Yes I believe it because the language and archaeological evidence supports Didodorus' statements. Cemetery L at Qustul supports this contention.
"The earliest known examples of Egyptian royal iconography, such as, e.g., the representation of the Red Crown on a late Naqada I (c. 3500 BC) pottery vessel from Abydos or the triumphal scenes in the painting from Hierakonpolis Tomb 100 (c. 3400-3300 BC) are much older than the Qustul censer. It seems thus that it was the Qustul rulers who adopted symbols of royal authority developed in Egypt and not vice versa."
Török, László. Between Two Worlds : The Frontier Region Between Ancient Nubia and Egypt, 3700 BC-AD 500. In Probleme Der Ägyptologie. Leiden: Brill. 2009. ISBN 9789004171978
Vessel, Predynastic Period, Naqada II, ca. 3450–3300 B.C.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
To understand what is black or what is complete one must pay strict atention to the determinative.
If one cannot read hieroglyphics one does a great disservice to the unknowing who read incorrect and false posts claiming to demonstrate KM.t = black is not in THE Woerterbuch.
Beware of people disagreeing solely due to personality conflict.
Here let' get it right, about Erman & Grapow's Woerterbuch enries for KM.t (which in fact equals black and it equals complete), for those who refused to follow the earlier given links I will present fresh copies in another thread.
It has all of the WB entries. In the section that says "Enter the transcription to be searched for:" enter the word "kmt" (without the quotation marks).
See what entries come up for the tri-consonantal root. The entries will be displayed in German. If you can't read or speak German, then just use Google translate.
Now, do the same for the bi-consonantal root "km." All entries with k-m will come up, including kmt. But only pay attention to the words that are just "km." Notice that you will NEVER see the word "km" used to denote "Egypt." Only "kmt" is used.
Tukuler lacks methodology on this question and is trying to hold on to outdated ideas. For the record, the WB dictionaries is the most extensive single set of dictionaries. Although it is extensive, it does not have ALL of the ancient Egyptian terms. One can see that it does not have "kmt" from the Ogden examples. It even lacks kmt variation with the nTr determinative. Did you all know there is a variant of kmt with a nTr determinative? Does this word then men "the black gods land?" If you limit yourself to WB dictionary, your analysis is incomplete.
Here I brought Dr. Mubabinge Bilolo, foremost Egyptologist of Africa and linguist, to the University of Houston to speak on his work. Starting around 45 min. into the lecture is where he starts talking about km.t.
He is speaking in French, but we have a translator for you all. See what he argues, based on the comparative data with his own language. To my knowledge, he doesn't have the Ogden data, he's never heard of Mboli and he is not citing data from Pfouma. This is his own analysis and he too came to the same conclusions as I and other scholars who looked at this question.
Anyone attempting to make a kmt = "black" nation doesn't know jack and can't read mdw nTr.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
kmt is not the root km is the root
There are many woerterbuchen. Woerterbuch is simply the German or ictionary.
Erman&Grapow is old thus missing words found after its publication.
I don't have Hannig.
I don't think anyone has published an exaustive unabridged dictionary of the Ancient Egyptian Language.
Here's Beinlich translation of schwarz into AEL an epic fail for deniers of km not meaning black.
As or the asinine coment below I have something like 10 or more threads involving KM.t, so enjoy Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: KM.t does not mean black skin.
KM.t means black and it means complete.
It takes a determinative to ascertain what is black or what is complete.
Asar his Tukular character is so desparate he's got three separate threads going on about this. What do you make of this remark?
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posted
When we reference the Grapow dictionary in Egyptology, we always write the reference WB. This is customary in the field.
k-m is a root, but km doesn't only mean "black." It also means disease and it uses the same glyph. As noted in the video, the k-m root means 15 different things. Again, the European lexiographers created dictionaries without consulting African languages. Only African languages help explain the glyphs.
As Bilolo noted in his lecture, km also denotes a "wet land" in his native language. This is without the knowledge of the Hammamat graffito and other texts. When I showed him the actual glyphs with N23 determinative, I confirmed for him something that still exist in his native language.
Tukuler and others can deny this all he wants. The facts are undeniable and no one has EVER found any determinative to denote color of any kind or found the usage of kmt as an adjective to describe anyone. Once you try to apply their method to other words in the Egyptian language, their method crumbles because they cannot justify such a reading.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: km.t = place/land/location/farm/livable land/land with water
km.t DOES NOT = black;
--Leonard H. Lesko, A Dictionary of Late Egyptian
The entries from this dictionary don't seem to support your claims. The only word remotely related to several of the proposals you made is 'vinegard', all the other entries don't seem to relate km to what you translate it as. Thoughts?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by mentu: The argument is that kemet means 'black people' although euros maintain it means 'black land', however ancient kemetans used determinatives to indicate the exact meaning of words, and the word 'kemet' has no determinative of land,a drawing of a man and a woman is idicated.
For those who have a deeper knowledge of medu neter,where did euros get the land issue?
Is there any word in medu neter with indicating determinatives of land and people on the same word to indicate 'black people of the black land'.Hence euros clinging to this definition?
I will appreciate your input.
quote:Originally posted by mentu:
Topic: » Black land or black people »
Obviously when mentu said "black people" he meant people who are black due to dark skin color
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: KM.t does not mean black skin.
KM.t means black and it means complete.
It takes a determinative to ascertain what is black or what is complete.
KM.t[rmt.st] = Black[people] i.e., Word + [determinative] Page
^^^ therefore Tukular means they are black people for some reason other than dark skin
This is why I'm needed I blow away the smoke from his cigar
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Yes you blow!
But I wouldn't let you 100 meters near my cigar.
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posted
He is still under the impression that someone is arguing that km doesn't mean black. My argument that km = black is only ONE meaning for this k-m root given in Egyptian. This is why it is important to follow directions so you don't get bamboozled by those who refuse to use proper methodology. I informed you all to type in km. Here are some results:
quote: km Beiwort des Gottes von Athribis Wb V S 125 km Dienst Wb V S 130 km Haufen brennender Holzkohlen, Meiler Wb V S 122 km Pupille Wb V S 124 km Schwarzes Wb V S 124 km Serapeum in Memphis Wb V S 125 km [Krone von Unterägypten] Wb V S 122 km klagen Wb V S 130 km schwarzes Leder Wb V S 124 km schwarz Wb V S 122 km vollenden Wb V S 128 km wie Wb V S 122
Here we are ONLY looking for words with the km root, with no affixes or additional words. Now, you can go to the WB and look at the primary glyphs.
Let's take for example the WB entry km Dienst Wb V S 130. The word dienst means "service, duty." Now go to page 130 of the WB for the letter [k]. Notice this word is spelled with the same glyph as km.t "Egypt." Why would it be erroneous to interpret this word as "black service?" What would indicate that the service is "black." Is there such a thing as a black service? What does that look like?
As we can see, the word km DOES NOT mean black. There is A word km that means black, but every instance of this word does not mean "black." So to insert black into every entry is lazy scholarship and obviously someone doesn't know anything about African languages.
We can do this for other words. Go to km "klagen" Wb V S 130. The word klagen means "to complain." Is this "black complaining?" What the hell is "black complaining?" Notice, when you go to page 130 of the [k] part of the WB, it too is spelled with the same glyph as km.t.
We can do this all day. Just admit, you haven't studied this well. Let it go.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Here's Beinlich translation of schwarz into AEL an epic fail for deniers of km not meaning black.
As or the asinine coment below I have something like 10 or more threads involving KM.t, so enjoy
posted
Are you slow too? Did you even read where you can find the earliest known glyphs for km.t = "Egypt"
Here it is again from my earlier article:
quote: The earliest forms of the word km.t have the Alan Gardiner sign N23 as the determinative (see Gardiner 2007:33). It is a sign of “irrigated or cultivated land.” Adolf Erman and Hermann Grapow in their Wörterbuch der Aegyptischen Sprache state that the earliest form of kmt belongs to a Dynasty VI Old Kingdom inscription in Dendarah. Ogden Goelet (in the book Ki Baruch Hu: Ancient Near Eastern, Biblical and Judaic Studies in Honor of Baruch A. Levine, 1999: 32)argues the earliest is the XI or XII Dynasty. The following appears in the Hammamat graffito of an early Dynasty XII official Antef which referred primarily to the Nile Valley as the place people dwelled (Hammmamat 199, temp. Amenemhat I).
Couyat and Montet, Quadi Hammamat, 100-102.
Your dictionary entries mean nothing against the primary documentation. Go to the actual documents and try and make that argument.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: km.t = place/land/location/farm/livable land/land with water
km.t DOES NOT = black;
--Leonard H. Lesko, A Dictionary of Late Egyptian
These entries from this dictionary don't seem to support your claims. The only word remotely related to several of the proposals you made is vinegard, all the other entries don't relate km to what you translate it as. Thoughts?
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Thank you Swenet.
A lot contained in your entry copies was looked into many years ago when Jamie Petrol tried to use Erman&Grapow against me like Asar but both to no effect except their own embarassment of their ignorance.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: Are you slow too? Did you even read where you can find the earliest known glyphs for km.t = "Egypt"
No need to get your panties up in a bunch. I simply asked you for your thoughts and why the dictionaries don't reflect your claims.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: Your dictionary entries mean nothing against the primary documentation. Go to the actual documents and try and make that argument.
What is against N23 pointing to kmt simply meaning 'Egypt' in this instance? The way the author mentions ascending to 'place x' and descending to "kmt" is highly reminiscent of how they spoke of going into the desert and going back to Egypt, given that the part of Egypt they inhabited (i.e. the Nile Valley) is situated in a basin. It seems like nothing is against it, and that you're invoking explanations of this text that fit what you want it to say, because even IF something is unique about these early uses of kmt, determinatives don't create new meaning not inherent used words themselves. And since they don't create new meaning, there is no way a determinative can make kmt have all these meanings you attribute to it if the said meanings don't appear in the dictionaries.
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posted
This is why I give references. Even Lioness posted a link where you can read the whole study. I don't have time to scan the whole article for the forum. This is a simple logic.
The earliest attestation of km.t in reference to the country doesn't occur until the beginning of the middle kingdom. These designations either do not have a determinative, or has the N23 determinative. Therefore, when any claims that km.t refers to "black nation" is not based on the evidence. Only later is O49 /nj.wt/ used with the word km.t. This designation is built off the N23 designation. We know they refer to the same thing because the signs are interchangeable. This means that the same word that uses N23 will also use O49 in another variation of the word. The example given in this thread is spA.t (Vygus, 2012: 801).
N23 is pronounce /tA/ as in tA-mry. It is a sign for irrigated land. In other words wetland, land with rivers. The other African languages confirm this meaning:
Basa kaam "farm" Doai kaam "farm" Esitako ekaam "farm" Ngodzin kam "farm" Runda kumadin "farm"
and
Balue kom "country, region" Okam ekoma "city" Ndzem kom "rural area" Bateteka komwa "country, region" Bakweri kumi "country" Zulu khumbi "nation" Pende guma "country, region" Dewoi gumo "village, city" Caga gumi "rural area" Lingala gumba "city" Galla/Oromo gomdji "land which grows warm and is healthy cultivated"
This word k-m is also in Indo-European and is attached to many place-names as a suffix. However, Negro-Egyptienne /k/ becomes /h/ in Indo-European. It is found in the following place-names:
You say the word "kmt" everyday in English: it is the word "home" in English. Let's prove it. Here is the etymology of "home" from the Online Etymological Dictionary:
quote: HOME: O.E. ham "dwelling, house, estate, village," from P.Gmc. *khaim- (cf. O.Fris. hem "home, village," O.N. heimr "residence, world," heima "home," Ger. heim "home," Goth. haims "village"), from PIE base *kei- "to lie, settle down" (cf. Gk. kome, Lith. kaimas "village;" O.C.S. semija "domestic servants").
The word kmt meaning a "place" is OLD and is older than Egypt. You wouldn't say Billing-ham is the "Black Billing." Or Knotting-Ham palace is the "Black Knotting palace." The terms -ham, -ing and -ton/-tun are suffixed to many place names in Indo-European and are used to mean “farm, manor, estate” or “village.”
This is why in Hebrew Abraham means "Father of a Nation." Ab is the word for "father," -r- connective, with -ham meaning NATION. It is the same word as KMT and all of the other words we find in Africa. But we know we didn't get the term from I-E because /h/ does not morph into /k/. The order is k>h. Compare with Berber (Tamazign) akham “home.” All the word km means is a HOME, a place where you DWELL, where you can LIVE. Life/home is where the WATER IS.
You are harping on dictionary entries when the African linguists, including myself, am telling you the dictionaries are WRONG. We who engage in primary research can say such things with confidence because we have the glyphs to back us up. You guys have conjecture. Now please, stop this nonsense.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: You are harping on dictionary entries when the African linguists, including myself, am telling you the dictionaries are WRONG.
There has to be a way to test your claims and if your answer is that "the dictionaries must be wrong, then", your theory is not falsifiable and unscientific. Can you give me an independent source that verifies your claim that kmt can mean "place/land/location /farm/livable land/land with water"? My bet is that you can't because your interpretation relies on the false notion that determinatives ought to be read, judging by:
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: N23 is pronounce /tA/ as in tA-mry.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: the Egyptians would have been dark, independent of any tanning. This has been both genetically confirmed by testing mummies for skin related genes, as well as microscopic
It may be true but the sample size and technology used to make this assumption broadly about most pre-late ancient Egyptians in general is miniscule. The "packed with melanin" article isn't even mentioned in current or old Egyptology texts. And Diop's methods haven't been verified by other researchers. I say this in context of current Egyptologists who support
African origins of Ancient Egypt
What are talking about, it hasn't been verified?
I have posted the study, repeatedly. Where mummies from the Valley Of Kings have been tested on the melanin dosage. And where Diop's study was confirmed to be correct. I think that you are delusional.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: the Egyptians would have been dark, independent of any tanning. This has been both genetically confirmed by testing mummies for skin related genes, as well as microscopic
It may be true but the sample size and technology used to make this assumption broadly about most pre-late ancient Egyptians in general is miniscule. The "packed with melanin" article isn't even mentioned in current or old Egyptology texts. And Diop's methods haven't been verified by other researchers. I say this in context of current Egyptologists who support African origins of Ancient Egypt
Congratulations: you've stooped to a new low of whim-based denial.
Correct. But I honestly think that person is senile. Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
SMH. Because you do not do primary research, I understand your limitations. My question to you is, how do you know the dictionary is right? The Egyptians didn't have dictionaries. How can you verify that Gardiner, Erman & Grapow, Vygus, Allen and others are correct when they claim a word means this or that? Where is your research where you verified their claims? You are asking the wrong questions.
And as far as N23, it is pronounced as tA. Do you have the JSesh program? If you do, go to the HIEROGLYPHIC PALATTE and go to the N's and click on N23. What is the vocalization for this word? Remember, JSesh is a program professionals use to transliterate and to type out ancient Egyptian texts for their publications (including myself).
It is no different than O49 being pronounced nj.wt and is a determinative. All determinitives are vocalized. The modern researcher doesn't know all the vocalizations, but they have discovered some. You'd know this if you did your own research.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: You are harping on dictionary entries when the African linguists, including myself, am telling you the dictionaries are WRONG.
There has to be a way to test your claims and if your answer is that "the dictionaries must be wrong, then", your theory is not falsifiable and unscientific. Can you give me an independent source that verifies your claim that kmt can mean place/land/location /farm/livable land/land with water?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: N23 is pronounce /tA/ as in tA-mry.
This is false. N23 is not pronounced. One doesn't pronounce determinatives.
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: What are talking about, it hasn't been verified?
I have posted the study, repeatedly. Where mummies from the Valley Of Kings have been tested on the melanin dosage. I think that you are delusional.
Show me one book by a trained professional Egyptologist or forensics expert who validates Diop's melanin dosage or that this test can be applied with accurate results on ancient mummies
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