@The explorer, Who were the Moors, once again? They were Berber tribes, recorded in from the 5th century B.C. on by the Greeks, Romans and byzantyians. (I cannot give you a very accurate definition).
How did they look like? To know that, we can see to their ancestors, and their contemporary depictions. The links i gave you above, were given to have an idea how they looked like.
The Umayyad dynasty wasn't called Maures? I don't believe so, since the second/medieval definition says that the Moors are the Muslims of Andalusia. But if not, ok, no problem. That would an additioinal argument againt the claim of this topic: "North Arabian were teh Blacks of Moorish Spain". But, nevertheless, you should seek a source/argument for you opinion.
Mazigh, you simply repeated your answers above, which prompted me to ask you the last round of questions you are now reacting to. Obviously those answers don't get to the heart of the questions.
I am asking who were *specifically* the original ethnic groups called "Moors" in northern Africa; did they have a name besides "berber tribe" that you keep repeating? If so, what was that name, and who were the first people to call them "Moors"? And finally, what did this ethnic group physically look like? Is anything of this getting any clearer? I can only hope. And no, I am not looking for subjective opinions, which is why I'm asking these questions in the first place.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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the answere they looked mediterreanean and the north arabian leaders of moorish spain were mainly j1e-p58 but most of the inavading army was local berber tribes from marroco so the majority of the moors were e1b1b1b2 -m81 clan and looked mediterreanean these moors also got france and only chales martel king of franks stoped them from conquering france acording to history there were 20,000 moors in tours in france the place of the battle 12,000 died but what about the other 8000 not all of them return to spain and north africa some remind in france thats why we see e1b1b1b2 -m81 in french canadians regards e1b1b1c1
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Thanks for the info on the coin bru AlTakruri. it saved me the time of rummaging through the foot notes of Great African Leaders Ancient and Modern..I wish I had some of you guys research skills in sourcing primary documents.
Hammered don't you have a hooded bed sheet to iron and a cross to set fire to..
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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You are the racist here Brada. Usually the person who talks about nothing but race is pretty much a racist.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Thanks for the info on the coin bru AlTakruri. it saved me the time of rummaging through the foot notes of Great African Leaders Ancient and Modern..I wish I had some of you guys research skills in sourcing primary documents.
Hammered don't you have a hooded bed sheet to iron and a cross to set fire to..
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Mazigh - I thought advised you to stop posting from Mathilde the anthropology student's search forum. And I specifically already commented about that painting which is about as valid as Da Vinci's representation of David. You are not interested in Berber history you are only interested in Berber nationalism, otherwise you wouldn't be confusing people of Ottoman, Greek or slave ancestry with the pure Maures or ancient Mazigh, i.e. "Ethiopians".
Why don't you study the history of North Africa, its slave trade and what Arab writings said about what the Berbers looked if you are interested in Berber history.
Tariq came from the Nafzawa whose people are still brown or dark in color and were unquestionably once of the Zenata like the Iforaces and Maghrawa (who are the Iforas and Maghira now dark brown in color living in Mali and southward).
Unless Tariq was of slave ancestry we can assume he looked like the other Zenata and Berbers of his time who are only refered to as "black Africans" up until the 12th century by Arab historians and Iranians.
You said, "You know the Maures were Berbers. [ No further explanation}." AGREED!
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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It repeated my answers, because i couldn't find better answers...
I cannot give you accurate answers... I give only the broad lines:
Who were the Maures? Berber tribes! This is the interesting in the discussion. With other words, the original Maures were not arabs. This definition is given to re-answer the thread: "North Arabian were the Blacks of Moorish Spain ". The Arabs were, according to all the source i read, a minority in Spain.
The Berbers were not only in the Army, but more... they established their own "emperia"(?) like Almohads and almoravids...
Therefore, it is not imortant to know who were the Maures spicifally, since one thingi s established: They were Berbers.
An exact definition is another (off) topic.
How they looked like? This question is also not very ontopic. Since, my critic is refute the claim of "North Arabian were the Blacks of Moorish Spain " I won't also give you the answer of their skin color. I gave links to conclude it yourself.
Who called them "Maures"? Offtopic, [Some believe they were firstly called by the Greeks..., we don't know it for sure]
All is interesting in the word Maures, is: they were Berbers;
If you believe that the Maures (originally) were not Berbers. Then Ok. You questions will be taken into consideration.
I didn't post anaything from that site, excepts the image. The image is the same on internet, typ: "Tarik ibn Ziyad", then colick on "Images"... the result is that image.
I didn't confuse the Maures...with Ottamans, Greeks...
Additionally, the Arabs were a minority among the medieval muslims, so what it is funny?? I know you wanted to make "caricature" to give the discussion another look; But it is like you "caricaturised".
Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Doug, I am convinced that you have reading comprohension problems. When you stop trying to argue with me you might actually learn something. Again, the origin or usage of the word Moor is not going to answer any of your questions. You will spin around in circles and end up like little black Sambo. Get off your lazy rear and look up what current Spanish historians are saying about the issue. That is the ONLY option out there.
Brada, Those myths you used are not worth a nickle as research on the question. Earth calling Brada....modern spanish historians. If you worked as hard fining real data as you do posting this crap you would be a Rhodes scholar.
I am sure Hammer you can give us some citations of what Spanish historians are saying about the Moro of the Islamic period. Why make us Negroes work for you. Slavery is over.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: Procopius said that the Maures are called "Leuatae". But in other source he might have distinguished between the Maures and Leuatae/Laguatan.
Leutea was known as Luwata in the arabic source. A famous person from luwata was Ibn Battuta.
And this is also what Procopius says. History of the Wars IV xiii 29-36.
"And beyond this were other nations of the Moors ruled by Ortais... And I have heard this man say that beyond the country which he ruled there was no habitation of men but desert land extending to a great distance and that beyond that there are men, not BLACK-SKINNED LIKE THE MOORS , but very white in body and fair-haired."
And Procopius also mentions that the Moors hadn't the slightest idea who these people "white in body" were or where they had come from.
Now explain that away!
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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I didn't post anaything from that site, excepts the image. The image is the same on internet, typ: "Tarik ibn Ziyad", then colick on "Images"... the result is that image.
I didn't confuse the Maures...with Ottamans, Greeks...
Additionally, the Arabs were a minority among the medieval muslims, so what it is funny?? I know you wanted to make "caricature" to give the discussion another look; But it is like you "caricaturised".
OK sorry to caricaturise you. So where are your sources!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Your obsession for the colour confuses you... so, what if they were black? Does this support your argument of Black Arabs in Spain?
Because of this, your contributions are confused... all is stabil and followable is the blackness. That is the last of my interesses... at this moment.
quote:OK sorry to caricaturise you. So where are your sources!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!? [/QB]
You are not caricaturising me, but the discussion.
Sources for what? i said many things, chose some... because it needs time to sourcify all my statements.
Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: Your obsession for the colour confuses you... so, what if they were black? Does this support your argument of Black Arabs in Spain?
Because of this, your contributions are confused... all is stabil and followable is the blackness. That is the last of my interesses... at this moment.
quote:OK sorry to caricaturise you. So where are your sources!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?
You are not caricaturising me, but the discussion.
Sources for what? i said many things, chose some... because it needs time to sourcify all my statements. [/QB]
If you can source any of your statements I'll be very surprised.
The word Moro meant black people for Europeans and there is no running away from that. It is the fact that you and other European-related people don't wish to acknowledge this is why you are projecting your obsession onto me. Face facts!
I know it hurts people like you because people in Europe have been telling you that people with black skins are less than you and that Berbers were originally people with white skins. That is not my fault. Face your own psychological blockages and then you can stop being so upset by this information.
The point is, the most ancient Berber culture comes from black Africans and its origins are in black Africa and not with modern Mediterraneans. it should not be offensive to you if other black Africans want to preserve their heritage. Just be glad some of your ancestors mixed with the original blacks in North African who were the Berber people known as Mauri or Nigritian or Ethiopians to the Romans and Greeks - because there is NOT A SINGLE source that u will find stating otherwise.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Sorry, but you missed the point. It is not my aim to proove their skin-colour backgrounds... I don't believe the white colour is better than black. I'm myself brown, like the most of the Berbers. I don't deny there were black (dark brown) Berbers..., and i don't care if they were black or white unless if it can lead to some historical informations...
For you, the key is the colour, therefore, you make false conlusions...
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And furthermore what are u asking me about black Arabs in Spain? What are u saying is wrong - when I said the tribes and clans of Banu Ka'b, Udthan, Rabi'a, Uqayl, Muntafik, Ghatafan, Abs, Murad, Madhij, Nakha, Sheban bin Amer, Shahr bin Zura' Harun bin Zura, Nahid, Naji, Daws, Azd, Khazraj, Aus, Sulaym, Hilal, Mahra, Hawazin, Ateiyba, Kuda'a, Juhayna, Jodham, Gatham, Shayban, Hanifah, Taghlib, Kilab, Kinda, Kaleb, Thaur, Tayyi, Ash'ar, Wa'il, Harb, Hamdan, Bajila, Fezara, Mansur, Bahila, Numayr, Anmar, Rabi'ah, Quraysh, Umayya, Ru'ayn, Beliyy, Tamim bin Murra, Khuzaima, Mustaliq, Ghafir, Ghafiq, Mu'afir, Kenana, Shahara, Bal Haf, Aramramma, and Aklub were originally described by themselves and others as black and jet black and settled by the many 10s of thousands in Cordoba, Jaen, Toledo, Seville, Murcia, Granada, Portugal, Palermo and other places - I am stating documented fact.
FACE FACTS!
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: Sorry, but you missed the point. It is not my aim to proove their skin-colour backgrounds... I don't believe the white colour is better than black. I'm myself brown, like the most of the Berbers. I don't deny there were black (dark brown) Berbers..., and i don't care if they were black or white unless if it can lead to some historical informations...
For you, the key is the colour, therefore, you make false conlusions...
Then for you the key is nationalism, like many of the Europhone Berber speakers of North Africa.
I myself am brown and not a Muslim, like most black Americans. And, I DO CARE what people say about BERBER and ARAB people because there are people that are trying to write THEM out of their own history, even to the point of saying they aren't real BERBERS or ARABS!
Maybe you should read that on Mathilde's "search" forum next time you visit it! And don't go around saying there that most Berbers are still brown as they'll only call you an Afronut!
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Everyone on this forum knows that the Almurabid'un and Almuwahhidun were predominantly Tuareg (Aulamidden), Joddala and Masmuda people (not yet mixed with European slaves) as well as other black Africans. This was the late period of "Moorish" history.
I guess you have not read this which I have previously posted.
"11th century - Ibn Butlan of Iraq wrote, “The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters, active in service, suited both to motherhood and to pleasure, for they are the most solicitous in caring for their children.”
11th century - Nasr i Khusrau, an Iranian traveller described the Masmuda soldiers of the Fatimid dynasty as “black Africans”. See Yaacov Lev, "Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094", International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies, 19.3 (1987) p. 342.
13th century – Primary Cronica General of Alphonso X of Spain describes the 300 Almoravid “Amazon” women whose leader is described as black and Moorish. They were “led by their leader Nugaymath al-Tarqiyya (the “star of the Tuareg archers” in Arabic) who led the Almoravid siege of Valencia”; cited in Nubian Queens in the Nile Valley by Carolyn Fluehr-Lobban, Ninth International Conference of Nubian Studies, Museum of Fine Arts, Boston, USA. See also The Berbers in Arab Literature by H.T. Norris 1982.p. 20. Harvey , L.P. “Nugaymath Turquia, Primera Cronica General, Chapter 956” Journal of Semitic Studies 13, no. 2:232. Targiyyat or Targiya is a variant form or pronunciation in North Africa for the name Tuareg.
13th or 14th century Abu Shama, a Syrian, described the Masmuda Berbers as “blacks” in his, Kitab al-Ravdatayn. Found in Golden Age of the Moor, 1991 edition p. 57, edited by Dr. Ivan Van Sertima.
14th – The Almoravid or Al Murabitun dynasty entering Spain originally centered in the Atlas was one of the last dynasties coming from Africa to rule in the Iberian peninsula. One of the 11th century rulers of Andalusia and North Africa was Yusuf Tachfin who had come from a long line of miltary rulers. According to "Roudh el-Kartas" (History of the Rulers of Morocco) by Abd Allah, and A.Beaumier's French translation of the 14th century work, Yusuf was of “brown color”, of “middle height” with , “ thin, little beard, soft voice” and “woolly hair”.
The Almoravid dynasty was supposedly composed mainly of Sanhaja clans of Massufa, Joddala (Gaetuli) and Lamtuna (or Auelimidden Tuareg)- the Auelamidden have since moved southward and live in Niger. The Banu Warith or Waritan branch of the Joddala are called Fulani, Futa, Futa-be Woodabe, Fulata or Peul."
6th-7th century AD - “The Moors have bodies black as night, while the skin of the Gauls is white..." written by Isidore of Seville from The Etymologies of Isidore of Seville - by Steven A. Barney published 2007. p. 386
And that means before the Berbers became "mostly brown" - they were black.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: [QB] Everyone on this forum knows that the Almurabid'un and Almuwahhidun were predominantly Tuareg (Aulamidden)....
So what, supposing they were black. They are still not Arabs.
quote: "11th century - Ibn Butlan of Iraq wrote, “The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south.
An island between the west and the south...? Was ibn Butlan crazy to say this? Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by e3b1c1: the answere they looked mediterreanean and the north arabian leaders of moorish spain were mainly j1e-p58 but most of the inavading army was local berber tribes from marroco so the majority of the moors were e1b1b1b2 -m81 clan and looked mediterreanean these moors also got france and only chales martel king of franks stoped them from conquering france acording to history there were 20,000 moors in tours in france the place of the battle 12,000 died but what about the other 8000 not all of them return to spain and north africa some remind in france thats why we see e1b1b1b2 -m81 in french canadians regards e1b1b1c1
This is how the Aabian people that fought Charles (the Hammer) Martel's army "the Azd" were described in Arabic - black or jet black ("Shadeed al Udma") in Futuh es Sham and in the hadith Al Israa Wa Al Mi'raaj according to Tariq Berry author of Unknown Arabs.
Hence it should be no surprise that in the Song of Roland they are black "as melted pitch".
So much for genetic science of Spanish scholars. Right Hammer.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: [QB] Everyone on this forum knows that the Almurabid'un and Almuwahhidun were predominantly Tuareg (Aulamidden)....
So what, supposing they were black. They are still not Arabs.
quote: "11th century - Ibn Butlan of Iraq wrote, “The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south.
An island between the west and the south...? Was ibn Butlan crazy to say this?
I never said all Moors were Arabs and especially not the late ones. But it was a large part of the reason the Islamic peoples in the Iberian peninsula were often called Moro meaning "Negro" or black.
The word Island in one older sense in English means simply a surrounded tract of land . Butlan probably uses this word because of the Berbers were boarded by the Mediterranean and by the Sahara in the south.
No there is nothing crazy about what he said.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: [QB] Everyone on this forum knows that the Almurabid'un and Almuwahhidun were predominantly Tuareg (Aulamidden)....
So what, supposing they were black. They are still not Arabs.
quote: "11th century - Ibn Butlan of Iraq wrote, “The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south.
An island between the west and the south...? Was ibn Butlan crazy to say this?
I never said all Moors were Arabs and especially not the late ones. But it was a large part of the reason the Islamic peoples in the Iberian peninsula were often called Moro meaning "Negro" or black.
The word Island in one older sense in English means simply a surrounded tract of land . Butlan probably uses this word because of the Berbers being boardered by the Mediterranean in the North, Atlantic in the West and the Sahara in the south.
No there is nothing crazy about what he said.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Dana, You need to consult current Spanish historians who understand the use of these terms instead of just wandering off a cliff.You are aware that the invasion of spain and France for that matter was the end of the muslim conquests that started in Arabia and swept across North Africa. Obviously as they moved west they picked up additional forces from their conquest, and it is possible that some of those were negroes. The invasion itself was an arabian lauched event from beginning to end. Now, if you are interested in how many black Africans were part of that invasion, and I can not imagine why you would be, you need to consult current Spanish historical sources. Any thing less that that is a waste of your time and the time of the rest of us as well.
Posting outdated material from the 19th century or drawing your own conclusions when you are not a specialist in the field serves no purpose.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Dana, You need to consult current Spanish historians who understand the use of these terms instead of just wandering off a cliff.You are aware that the invasion of spain and France for that matter was the end of the muslim conquests that started in Arabia and swept across North Africa. Obviously as they moved west they picked up additional forces from their conquest, and it is possible that some of those were negroes. The invasion itself was an arabian lauched event from beginning to end. Now, if you are interested in how many black Africans were part of that invasion, and I can not imagine why you would be, you need to consult current Spanish historical sources. Any thing less that that is a waste of your time and the time of the rest of us as well.
Posting outdated material from the 19th century or drawing your own conclusions when you are not a specialist in the field serves no purpose.
Hammer - u are aware ur namesake 'the Hammer' Martel was invaded by the pitch black Moors in the 8th century which was hardly the end of the Arabian settlement of Syria Iraq, let alone North Africa and Spain.
You need to consult a therapist for your repeated unwarranted assertions and then pick up a book regarding the Arabian invasion of North Africa such as, "Muslim Conquest and Settlement of North Africa and Spain" or SEE IT on-line on GOOGLE BOOKS since YOU are obviously the "lazy" one.
Secondly - Stop PRETENDING !
P.S. - 1 quarter of American "whites" in the American south have recent sub-Saharan African blood. Check ur dna Hammered that might be why u can't leave this forum alone. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Ibn Butlan refers, according to me, to the Island of Barbara (situated in Somalia). Another confusion is also in another description of the female slave described to abdel malik ibn marwan:
((وقال ابن أبي شيبة في المصنف: حدثنا أبو سفيان الحميري حدثنا خالد بن محمد القرشي قال: قال عبد الملك بن مروان من أراد أن يتخذ جارية للتلذذ فليتخذها بربرية ومن أراد أن يتخذها للولد فليتخذها فارسية ومن أراد أن يتخذها للخدمة فليتخذها رومية )))
Barbariya is thought by many to be "Berber woman", but it seems that the soumalian wamens are the concerned ones.
Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: Ibn Butlan refers, according to me, to the Island of Barbara (situated in Somalia). Another confusion is also in another description of the female slave described to abdel malik ibn marwan:
((وقال ابن أبي شيبة في المصنف: حدثنا أبو سفيان الحميري حدثنا خالد بن محمد القرشي قال: قال عبد الملك بن مروان من أراد أن يتخذ جارية للتلذذ فليتخذها بربرية ومن أراد أن يتخذها للولد فليتخذها فارسية ومن أراد أن يتخذها للخدمة فليتخذها رومية )))
Barbariya is thought by many to be "Berber woman", but it seems that the soumalian wamens are the concerned ones.
Ketama, Sanhaja, and Masmuda tribes or their women were not located in Somalia, Mazigh. That was a half decent try though.
By the way the Beja women are described as "golden" colored.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Dana, As usual your stuff is sloppy. The invasion of spain is directly tied to the north african conquest which began in arabia.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Dana, Who wxactly wrote the passages you posted? In addition which Spanish historians did you use to verify the conclusions you reached? The information may have been good but it seems to be set up in a manner which makes it difficult to follow.
What conclusions did I reach Hammered. I'm not the one who claimed that "Arabs held fair skin in contempt" and were mostly dark brown or else jet black and called themselves "the blacks". What the heck conclusions are you talking about now?
By the way did you see anyone on this forum ask a Texan to go read up on what an Italian has to say about the ancient Roman Empire or for that matter Leonardo Da Vinci, before he writes what other's have said during those eras.
Are you plum crazy or just dumb as anguish thinks you are. Because personally I'm starting to think its both. Or maybe ur just a very young young person as someone once suggested in which case I'm sorry to insuate that you are d_ _ _ as it seems. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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It is true that those tribes were Berber, but he seems to have confused the names, according to abdessalam haroun: وعلق عبد السلام هارون بأن جزيرة بربرة من الجزائر التي تجاور سواحل اليمن كما ذكر ياقوت وهذا وهم من ابن بطلان
He caracterisation of the Berberwomen is also based on the hadith of Abdel Malik ibn Marwan. Ibn Marwan said that on the woman of Barbara (somalia), seems to be.
We find also this "Barbara" at "Yaqout alhamawi": بربرة: هذه بلاد أخرى بين بلاد الحبش والزنج واليمن على ساحل بحر اليمن وبحر الزنج، وأهلها سودان جدا ولهم لغة برأسها لا يفهمها غيرهم، وهم بواد معيشتهم من صيد الوحش، وفي بلادهم وحوش [ 370 ] غريبة لا توجد في غيرها، منها الزرافة والببر والكر كدن والنمر والفيل وغير ذلك، وربما وجد في سواحلهم العنبر. وهم الذين يقطعون مذاكير بعضهم بعضا، وقد ذكرت ذلك وسنتهم فيه في الزيلع، وذكر الحسن بن أحمد بن يعقوب الهمداني اليمني فقال: ومن الجزائر التي تجاور سواحل اليمن جزيرة بربرة http://www.yasoob.com/books/htm1/m023/27/no2783.html He said that Barbara is another places (after having insulted the Berbers ), her poeple are black....... and one of the islands surrounding the coasts of Yeman is the Barbara island.
Ibn Butlan said that some Barbara women are black, and some are yellow.
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I personally could care less where Butlan thought the Ketama, Masmuda, Sanhaja women came from in their Berber habitat, Mazigh.
He said the Berber woman ARE BLACK though SOME PALE ONES CAN BE FOUND AMONG THEM. He was a physician that wrote medical texts. He probably examined many of these women personally if we are to believe some of his vivid descriptions. he was familiar with the appearance of Abyssinian, Beja, Ketama, Masmuda, Sanhaja, Armenian, Zanj, Slavic, Meccan women. He states exactly what they look like.
Ketama, Masmuda, Sanhaja were only tribes found in the Maghreb.
And yes - the first use of the word "Berbers" or Beriberi was for people in the region now occupied by Somalians around the time of Christ. See Periplus of the Eritraean Sea by Huntingford.
If you are not obsessed with color why are you always trying to make excuses for these descriptions like Hammered.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Yes he said, ketam, masmuda, sanhaja, but said also "Island Barbara". In arabic it is "Jazirat barbara(h)". This is never said to talk on the Berbers. Northwest Africa was known to the Arabs as "The island of the Maghreb", but never as "Jazirat Barbara(h)".
In arabic it is clear. Barbara is a female name. This female name comes only in Somalia. If it goes on the Berbers, he would say "Jazirat albarabira", which is never heard.
The situation also indicate that it goes on Soumalia "between the west and the south". He was in Irak, so Soumalia (barbara island) is situated in the south and the west.
The Maghreb is never described as being in the south. It is only in the west. The name "Maghreb" means also west.
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posted
Butlan did not say the island was in the south he said between the south. Unless you know what the south and west meant for this Iraqi one should not and can not speculate on it.
Like the Maghreb, Somalia is not an island and neither is the town of Berbera. The name Berber in Somalia does not refer to a woman it in fact has more to do with water sources, wells and is more likely etymologically related to the the phallus or males hence the term Burbur, Bar or War and its variants for male or phallus in Afro-Asiatic dialects.
Even if we were to take your elaborate disconcerting explanation on the term Berbera There is still the fact that other references to the Ketama, Sanhaja and Masmuda by other individuals refer to the each of these tribes as black n no uncertain terms.
What are you going to say about Abu Shama and Nasr i Khusrau on the Masmuda, the Cronica Primerica of Alphonso on the Sanhaja women, the earlier references to the Ketama or Maketa as being the color off Ethiopians and for that matter the fact that many of the Imakitan (Tuareg), and Sanhaja and Zenata are still near black in color.
And that is leaving out the several writers Wah ibn Munabihh, Qutaybah, Ibn Hawkul, Kab al Akbar that said the Berbers in the Maghreb were from black people called Canaanites or Kenaaniya.
Like I have said many times before you can run from the truth but you can not hide it.
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
The island barbara is not the same as "Somalia", but it seems to be situated there. This arab pseudo-geographer has noted it clearly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaqut_al-Hamawi
ومن الجزائر التي تجاور سواحل اليمن جزيرة بربرة،
Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Of course those coins Brada posted weren't "photoshopped" but are authentic ancient coins depicting North Africans (MOORS)!
And I suppose those pictures Doug posted of modern white Spaniards dressed as Moors in black-face is somehow the result of 'Afrocentric' fancies and not based on their own history!
Also, I believe terminology is very important when dealing with this issue. The English 'Moor' and Spanish 'Moros' are just variants of the term. I've asked you before many times and I'll ask you again.
What were the two Moorish dynasties that ruled Iberia? Considering how mentally challenged you are, the clue to one of the answers can be found in the very title and topic of a thread here.
Posts: 26300 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
As Dana has pointed out, the word 'Moor' has been in use by Europeans well before the Islamic conquest of Iberia which is why Moor need not be Muslim not synonymous with Muslim.
Here below are two famous persons of Moorish ancestry in European history who were Christian and one of whom was actually a Christian Saint while the other was a powerful nobleman.
St. Maurice Maurice was an officer of the Theban Legion of Emperor Maximian Herculius' army, which was composed of Christians from Upper Egypt. He and his fellow legionnaires refused to sacrifice to the gods as ordered by the Emperor to insure victory over rebelling Bagaudae. When they refused to obey repeated orders to do so and withdrew from the army encamped at Octodurum (Martigny) near Lake Geneva to Agaunum (St. Maurice-en-Valais), Maximian had the entire Legion of over six thousand men put to death. To the end they were encouraged in their constancy by Maurice and two fellow officers, Exuperius and Candidus. Also executed was Victor (October 10th), who refused to accept any of the belongings of the dead soldiers. In a follow-up action, other Christians put to death were Ursus and another Victor at Solothurin (September 30th); Alexander at Bergamo; Octavius, Innocent, Adventor, and Solutar at Turin; and Gereon (October 10th) at Cologne. Their story was told by St. Eucherius, who became Bishop of Lyons about 434, but scholars doubt that an entire Legion was massacred; but there is no doubt that Maurice and some of his comrades did suffer martyrdom at Agaunum. Feast day - September 22nd.
^ The name 'Maurice' by the way is derived from the Greek Maure which is the ancestral word for 'Moor'
Both of the objects highlighted here feature Alessandro de' Medici (1511-37), the first Duke of Florence. It is thought that Alessandro's mother was a Moorish slave.
The Medici, an Italian family of merchants, bankers, rulers, patrons and collectors, dominated the political and cultural life of Florence from the 15th century to the mid 18th century. They were expelled from Florence in 1494-1512 and 1527-30. In 1530, after a long and bitter siege, the army of the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V conquered the city and backed the installment of Alessandro de' Medici as the first Duke of Florence. Alessandro's reign ended in 1537, when he was assassinated by his cousin and rival Lorenzino de' Medici. As he had no children with his wife (Margaret of Austria, illegitimate daughter of the emperor Charles V), and his illegitimate son Giulio was only four years old, Alessandro was succeeded by a member of another branch of the Medici family, Cosimo I.
Officially, Alessandro was the illegitimate son of Lorenzo de' Medici, Duke of Urbino (1492-1519), but it was rumoured that Lorenzo's cousin Giulio (later Pope Clement VII), had fathered him. Alessandro's mother, Simonetta, was allegedly a Moorish slave who had worked in the household of Lorenzo and his parents during their exile in Rome.
Although Alessandro's paternity was disputed, contemporaries acknowledged his maternal ancestry, even nicknaming him 'Il Moro', the Moor. This term was (and is still) used in Italy to describe Africans and also Europeans with dark complexions or hair. But contemporary references to Alessandro's dark skin, curly hair, wide nose and thick lips, as well as visual evidence from surviving portraits, suggest that he was indeed of mixed heritage.
The slave status and possible African origin of Alessandro's mother are not surprising. Black Africans had been imported into Europe as slaves since 1440 onwards, when the Portuguese opened a new trade route between Mediterranean Europe and the west coast of sub-Saharan Africa. Many Italians, often from the maritime republics of Genoa and Venice, were involved in the trade, and in the 1460s there developed a fashion for using black African female slaves for domestic labour. These slaves were seen as symbols of status but also of the exotic new lands that were then being discovered.
Sometimes, there were sexual relations between female slaves and their masters or other freedmen. Florentine statutes of 1415 granted children born of such unions the free legal status of the father. However, Roman law, which applied across much of the Italian peninsula, stated that the legal status of a child followed that of its mother. Female slaves were therefore often freed by their masters so that their children would be free. After Alessandro's birth in Urbino, Simonetta was freed and moved to Colle Vecchio, near Rome, where she lived with her husband Lostensor (whose name may suggest that he was also of African descent) and their two children.
Like many freed Africans in Renaissance Italy, Simonetta lived in poverty. Letters that she wrote to Alessandro in the 1530s, asking for financial aid, reveal a stark contrast between her scanty means and the wealth of her son.
The cameo shown here, possibly made by Alessandro's court medallist and gem-engraver Domenico de' Vetri, bears a profile portrait of the duke, bearded and dressed in the style of a Roman emperor. The choice of green chalcedony may have been intended to represent Alessandro's dark skin and tightly curled hair. During the Renaissance, cameo portraits in the classical tradition were important as emblems of dynastic power. They were highly prized by collectors and were often presented as gifts.
The painting of Alessandro, in which his dark skin and hair is visible, follows an earlier half-length portrait by the Florentine painter Jacopo Pontormo (1494-1556), now in the Philadelphia Museum of Art. The Philadelphia portrait shows Alessandro dressed in mourning for the death of Clement VII and drawing the profile of a woman in silverpoint. It was commissioned in 1534 as a gift for Taddea Malaspina, the mother of two of his illegitimate children, probably in commemoration of the birth of their daughter Giulia.
Alessandro had many enemies among Florentine exiles. They regarded him as a tyrannical despot responsible for depriving republican Florence of its liberty. Seemingly unconcerned with the ethnicity of his mother, they mocked Alessandro for her peasant status, even accusing him of poisoning her to hide his lowly origins. This suggests that people of African or mixed heritage who held positions of power, such as ambassadors and dignitaries, were less likely to be subjected to racial stereotyping than their poor or enslaved counterparts.
As the first of the Medici to be installed as a hereditary ruler of Florence, Alessandro has received surprisingly little study. Historians have criticised his rule for its severity, but contemporaries were more favourable. They commented on his political skills, spontaneous generosity and concern for the poor, as well as his informal style of leadership. Like other members of the Medici dynasty, Alessandro was also a patron of the arts.
His ethnicity has usually been ignored, perhaps because historians were uncomfortable with the fact that Alessandro's descendants married into eminent houses all over Europe. Writers who did acknowledge his mixed heritage judged him harshly, claiming that he was an unprincipled, sexually voracious seducer of aristocratic women. Hopefully, the recent academic interest in Alessandro will lead to an unbiased reassessment of his character, reign and significance in European history.
^ The very last paragraph is no surprise there.
Alessandro de' Medici Posts: 26300 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Hammered: ...Posting outdated material from the 19th century or drawing your own conclusions when you are not a specialist in the field serves no purpose.
First of all, what is so "outdated" about such material??! It's not like they are scientific material which has been debunked by recent studies but are simply writings which just acknowledge what earlier accounts and eyewitness reports from that time period actually say!
Secondly, all of what Dana has recently cited is not even from the "19th century" but are direct accounts and eyewitness reports from the Moorish conquests, so as usual you are sadly mistaken and don't even know what you're talking about.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Hammer - u are aware ur namesake 'the Hammer' Martel was invaded by the pitch black Moors in the 8th century which was hardly the end of the Arabian settlement of Syria Iraq, let alone North Africa and Spain.
You need to consult a therapist for your repeated unwarranted assertions and then pick up a book regarding the Arabian invasion of North Africa such as, "Muslim Conquest and Settlement of North Africa and Spain" or SEE IT on-line on GOOGLE BOOKS since YOU are obviously the "lazy" one.
Secondly - Stop PRETENDING !
P.S. - 1 quarter of American "whites" in the American south have recent sub-Saharan African blood. Check ur dna Hammered that might be why u can't leave this forum alone.
LMAO
Hilarious! It's obvious this alleged college professor of history is under qualified to teach even elementary school. Another sad example of the education system of America. Posts: 26300 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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It repeated my answers, because i couldn't find better answers...
I cannot give you accurate answers... I give only the broad lines:
Who were the Maures? Berber tribes! This is the interesting in the discussion. With other words, the original Maures were not arabs. This definition is given to re-answer the thread: "North Arabian were the Blacks of Moorish Spain ". The Arabs were, according to all the source i read, a minority in Spain.
The Berbers were not only in the Army, but more... they established their own "emperia"(?) like Almohads and almoravids...
Therefore, it is not imortant to know who were the Maures spicifally, since one thingi s established: They were Berbers.
An exact definition is another (off) topic.
How they looked like? This question is also not very ontopic.
Well, my questions were in response to your own denial of "Moors" being synonymous with "black Africans" in Iberia. So, you cannot dismiss them as being out of topic, simply because you are not able to answer them.
quote: Who called them "Maures"? Offtopic, [Some believe they were firstly called by the Greeks..., we don't know it for sure]
All is interesting in the word Maures, is: they were Berbers;
If you believe that the Maures (originally) were not Berbers. Then Ok. You questions will be taken into consideration.
Best regards,
Take it easy, my friend. I never said that Tamazight-speakers were not called "Moors"; you drew that conclusion on your own, for reasons which remain elusive to me.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
I come here because some of the posters put on a better show than comedy central. Dana gats another 'F' this week. Any tenth grade world history student knows the muslim invasion of Spain was in the early 8th century, not the 7th. In addition the Berbers in the Muslim army were recently converted. I suppose she thinks they just wok up one day and took a magic Muslim pill. They became Muslims at the point of a sword from an army sweeping out of arabia across north africa.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Hammer: I come here because some of the posters put on a better show than comedy central. Dana gats another 'F' this week. Any tenth grade world history student knows the muslim invasion of Spain was in the early 8th century, not the 7th. In addition the Berbers in the Muslim army were recently converted. I suppose she thinks they just wok up one day and took a magic Muslim pill. They became Muslims at the point of a sword from an army sweeping out of arabia across north africa.
No Hammer... nobody no take no magic pill save your pink and weak dangling cord that needs viagara to "wok" up...
Class dunces that cannot spell must "wok" up and go to the corner.. Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Doug, I am convinced that you have reading comprohension problems. When you stop trying to argue with me you might actually learn something. Again, the origin or usage of the word Moor is not going to answer any of your questions. You will spin around in circles and end up like little black Sambo. Get off your lazy rear and look up what current Spanish historians are saying about the issue. That is the ONLY option out there.
Brada, Those myths you used are not worth a nickle as research on the question. Earth calling Brada....modern spanish historians. If you worked as hard fining real data as you do posting this crap you would be a Rhodes scholar.
LOL! F*ck you hammer you know you don't like blacks so kiss my ass honestly.
White Spanish when they are having processions called Moros y Chritianos often paint themselves in black face to represent MOORS. Don't talk that bull sh*t that this doesn't mean black people to me you dumb retard. You can't refute it so shut the f*ck up
I am glad you are mad if it contradicts the nonsense you are talking about.
posted
so Brada, are you now telling us that a modern painted face is historical research? Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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Okay, first of all that was Doug who just replied to you NOT "Brada"!
Second of all, do you really think these Spaniards put on black face in portrayal of the Moors for something other than historical reasons?!! I asked you that in a previous post--
Djehuti wrote: "And I suppose those pictures Doug posted of modern white Spaniards dressed as Moors in black-face is somehow the result of 'Afrocentric' fancies and not based on their own history! "
So answer the question. Why would these Spaniards put on black face in depiction of Moors other than for the obvious reason of what the Moors looked like??!
quote:Originally posted by Hammered-brains: I come here because some of the posters put on a better show than comedy central. Dana gats another 'F' this week. Any tenth grade world history student knows the muslim invasion of Spain was in the early 8th century, not the 7th...
Wrong. Dana's sources do come from the 8th century as well as 9th, 10th, and 11th! Her sources from the 7th centuries and earlier only prove that the label of 'Moors' and the people they describe have existed long before the Islamic invasion of Iberia, dumbass! So it appears no one gets a failing grade here but YOU! An F- to be sure! LOL
quote:...In addition the Berbers in the Muslim army were recently converted. I suppose she thinks they just wok up one day and took a magic Muslim pill. They became Muslims at the point of a sword from an army sweeping out of arabia across north africa.
Perhaps, but not all conversions were forced. The Somalis of East Africa for example accepted Islam without any force as the Arabs never invaded Somalia. Despite the recent conversions, the actual Berber dynasties that ruled Spain the Almoravid and Almohad were considered zealots who were actually responsible for spreading Islam to other parts of west Africa so you point is null. By the way, all these Berbers were BLACK and thus called 'Moors' by Europeans! So it seems like the only one taking "magic" pills is YOU. It must be nice to take a pill that makes reality go away at least in your mind of course.
By the way, what do you have to say about the info I posted on St. Maurice and Duke Alessandro de Medici? Nothing eh? Perhaps you'll say that the Catholic Church and its Roman sources or Italy's archives as well as painters were all somehow mistaken. LOLPosts: 26300 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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