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Djehuti, You obviously took your stupid pill this morning. Are you going to tell me that you would use info like that( a modern carnival) to prove a point. Get lost, you are an idiot.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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Info like what? You mean all the historical accounts from the 6th through 11th centuries including eyewitness reports, or the artistic portraits Europeans made of these people?? Oh my! You're right! How stupid of me! How could such things be part of the historical method! I mean if Spanish and Italian historical documents don't count then what does? Please tell me oh great and all knowing master academician professor! Posts: 26361 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^ And where do you think our sources come from but Spanish and Italian historical sources, you moron!
How about you wake your crazy ass up to reality, or maybe you need a shrink to help you!
Posts: 26361 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Then tell us wo they are Djehuti. If you knew how ignorant hyou were you would jump off a bridge. Don't post crap and expect anyone to accept it.
The reason you will not do real research is that it would damage the bizarre negro/religious views you have bought and make you think. This crap is like a religion to you guys. There is not an ounce of perspective in the entire mess.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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I don't know where this argument has gone since the post I'm responding to, but the quoted "island" seems to me to be the same term used for lands now known as Algeria. Island in this context does not mean a land surrounded on all sides by water.
There's no escaping ibn Butlan's reference was to North African "Berber" females. His writing on the value and traits of enslaved women from various regions is quite clear on that.
Amazigh activists, and others, will have to come to grips with the reality of ancestry and relation to the blacks of Africa despite their conscious desire to be pure white caucasion in denial and at the expense of the well documented historic blacks of North Africa.
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: The island barbara is not the same as "Somalia", but it seems to be situated there. This arab pseudo-geographer has noted it clearly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaqut_al-Hamawi
ومن الجزائر التي تجاور سواحل اليمن جزيرة بربرة،
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Aljaza-ir is also the name of modern Algeria. But it means originally "the islands". In that sentence he said: "The island "Barbara" is one of those isands nighbouring the coast of Yeman".
@The explorer, even if the Moors meant "Black Africans in Iberia", it is still not in favour of the topic's main goal "North Arabian were the Blacks of Moorish Spain"
Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Hammered-brains: Then tell us wo they are Djehuti. If you knew how ignorant hyou were you would jump off a bridge. Don't post crap and expect anyone to accept it.
I would call YOU ignorant but then again, an ignorant person is one who is unaware of the facts. In your case the facts were presented to you over and over repeated not just in this thread but countless others! So you are not ignorant but rather just plain DUMB!
quote:The reason you will not do real research is that it would damage the bizarre negro/religious views you have bought and make you think. This crap is like a religion to you guys. There is not an ounce of perspective in the entire mess.
Incorrect. I (who am not even black) and others including Truthcentric (who is white) base our views on simple FACTS both scientific and historical. It is YOU whose ideology of white supremacy is more akin to a cult, since it is not based on anything logical more than the whimsical notions of low self-esteem whites whose very pride is based on lies. Now address the facts for a change. What is the etymology of 'Moor'? To which peoples was the term applied? And which Moorish dynasties ruled Spain??
These questions were already answered both here and other threads, but I want to see if YOU know the answers or at least admit to them.
Posts: 26361 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Djehute, Scholars across the country laugh at people like you. Afrocentrics are looked at as people who have taken an ideology and thurned it into a religious philosophy. In your favor I honestly think you believe the crap you put out. You cannot talk sense to a fanatic and that is why you will never do good , proper research. You are like the Moonies or the followers of Jim Jones. This garble you preach is an article of faith, it has nothing to do with scholarship of any kind.
Djehuti, Stop telling us you are not black.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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I'd look at the use of "island" by early Arabic travelers and historians in reference to Algeria south of the Atlas before pronouncing medieval Algeria as an island of the Barbara (i.e. Berbers) wrong.
No doubt ibn Butlan meant that area. Why? Because the quote Dana supplied specifically mentions Masmuda, Sanhaja, and Kutama.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
"11th century - Ibn Butlan of Iraq wrote, “The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters, active in service, suited both to motherhood and to pleasure, for they are the most solicitous in caring for their children.”
It's inescapable where ibn Butlan is pointing. Surmising Somalia is far from parsimonous in understanding his text. There are no Masmuda, Sanhaja, or Kutama peoples in the neighborhood of 11th century Somalia or Yaman.
Aljaza-ir is also the name of modern Algeria. But it means originally "the islands". In that sentence he said: "The island "Barbara" is one of those isands nighbouring the coast of Yeman".
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Hammer: yeah Dana supplies the quotes but never ever offers a schlar to verify the context of the quote. I call it voodoo history.
No Hammer, your pink butts r the only voodoo on this forum.
U dunce like a zombie; fi true, like a voodoo priest did place a curse pon you!
Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeingacrazedhomosexual: Mary thinks its some badge of honor to be a "non black" championing the Negro's cause. So she has to let everyone know, "But I'm not even black!"
Again with the pet-names. For the nth time, I'm not your Jewish mistress or Catholic school teacher. Also my point about being non-black is to show that this is not a 'black' issue but rather a simple issue of truth and veracity. It doesn't matter what color you are, and by the way we all know you're not black either but just as sad buggered white boy from the UK.
quote:LOL
Indeed what else to do about your life than to LOLPosts: 26361 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I don't know where this argument has gone since the post I'm responding to, but the quoted "island" seems to me to be the same term used for lands now known as Algeria. Island in this context does not mean a land surrounded on all sides by water.
There's no escaping ibn Butlan's reference was to North African "Berber" females. His writing on the value and traits of enslaved women from various regions is quite clear on that.
Amazigh activists, and others, will have to come to grips with the reality of ancestry and relation to the blacks of Africa despite their conscious desire to be pure white caucasion in denial and at the expense of the well documented historic blacks of North Africa.
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: The island barbara is not the same as "Somalia", but it seems to be situated there. This arab pseudo-geographer has noted it clearly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaqut_al-Hamawi
ومن الجزائر التي تجاور سواحل اليمن جزيرة بربرة،
Ditto! Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Dana, As usual your stuff is sloppy. The invasion of spain is directly tied to the north african conquest which began in arabia.
It's not Hammer time but you are obviously getting Hammered again. And take that in more than one way.
What have I been saying - Slowbro?!
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: [QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche: Then for you the key is nationalism, like many of the Europhone Berber speakers of North Africa.
Actually nationalism is a tool they use to write blacks out of that history!
Dana, your posts are very informative. But you need to stop exerting so much energy on the baits of the country school teacher though.
quote:If you are not obsessed with color why are you always trying to make excuses for these descriptions like Hammered
U might be right, but I actually think he is serious about this thing and represents many in the non-academic world trying to find themselves through insulting black people. This is a good way to help out. "These people" as he would put it really want to understand they not the great superrace they have been made to believe they are.
Besides I actually think the conversation is somewhat comical. I don't view it as a debate. I've been having a good time. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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This is the biggest bunch of jibberish I have ever seen. Nobody is demeaning black people. What is being asked is that proper academic research techniques be used in looking at information.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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Now, that Ibn Butlan meant the Somalians by "The island Barbara" might be slightly disputed. But the claim of Altakruri on this sentence that "aljaza-ir" means that of Somalia is undesputed. It overclear that it refers to Somalia. ومن الجزائر التي تجاور سواحل اليمن جزيرة بربرة،
When ibn Butlan wrote that the Berbers were powerful to take their women as slaves. They were also all islamic, which means there would no legitimacy to take them as slaves, excepts by kidnapping them or other rare cases.
Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Hammer: I come here because some of the posters put on a better show than comedy central. Dana gats another 'F' this week. Any tenth grade world history student knows the muslim invasion of Spain was in the early 8th century, not the 7th. In addition the Berbers in the Muslim army were recently converted. I suppose she thinks they just wok up one day and took a magic Muslim pill. They became Muslims at the point of a sword from an army sweeping out of arabia across north africa.
On second thought maybe you were right, anguish. Anyone that doesn't understand this passage - u are aware ur namesake 'the Hammer' Martel was invaded by the pitch black Moors in the 8th century which was hardly the end of the Arabian settlement of Syria Iraq, let alone North Africa and Spain - I probably don't need to be wasting time with. He either can't comprehend easily what people write or truly IS a troll.
No one can be this slow (unless of course one has been drinking) and not need sign language in addition - which I don't know. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Djehute, Scholars across the country laugh at people like you. Afrocentrics are looked at as people who have taken an ideology and thurned it into a religious philosophy. In your favor I honestly think you believe the crap you put out. You cannot talk sense to a fanatic and that is why you will never do good , proper research. You are like the Moonies or the followers of Jim Jones. This garble you preach is an article of faith, it has nothing to do with scholarship of any kind.
Djehuti, Stop telling us you are not black.
Maybe Djehuti has to keep telling you he is not black is because you can not u n d e r s t a n d that not everyone here that thinks ancient Egyptians and Moors were not white figured in some Tarzan movie ur parents watched Texan.
By the way did u check out ur dna yet! U might be blacker than he is and then you can join in the celebration! Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Hammer: This is the biggest bunch of jibberish I have ever seen. Nobody is demeaning black people. What is being asked is that proper academic research techniques be used in looking at information.
Your right, Hammer ur not demeaning anyone here. Ur actually making us look rather nice. By the way shouldn't u be in class today.
Oh that's right - teacher's aides sometimes go in late. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: Now, that Ibn Butlan meant the Somalians by "The island Barbara" might be slightly disputed. But the claim of Altakruri on this sentence that "aljaza-ir" means that of Somalia is undesputed. It overclear that it refers to Somalia. ومن الجزائر التي تجاور سواحل اليمن جزيرة بربرة،
When ibn Butlan wrote that the Berbers were powerful to take their women as slaves. They were also all islamic, which means there would no legitimacy to take them as slaves, excepts by kidnapping them or other rare cases.
Umm... OK - my Berber brother. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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cute Dana. if you had spent any time in anyone's college you would know I have only four classes. One at night, two on M/W and one on Tu/Th. You should take one of my classes but be advised you would be required to properly source your material.
-------------------- The tree of liberty is watered by the blood of tyrants. Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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quote:Originally posted by IronLion: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Hammer: [qb] I come here because some of the posters put on a better show than comedy central. ...wok up one day and took a magic Muslim pill. They became Muslims at the point of a sword from an army sweeping out of arabia across north africa.
You better believe this is like comedy central. Believe me i am laughing everytime I answer ur reponses. Hard! I guess you thought was kidding about that .
And yes, Texan, most people that were converted were so by armies of the below people. Like I have told you previously
Bedouin of Saudi Arabia
Dana's Dictionary Definition: El Moro (Mozarab) i.e. "Negroes wrapped up in a sheet" (U.S.)
Now, hmmm, let's see what do the Spanish scholars say,- Hammered!
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Hammer: cute Dana. if you had spent any time in anyone's college you would know I have only four classes. One at night, two on M/W and one on Tu/Th. You should take one of my classes but be advised you would be required to properly source your material.
No thanks - Hammered - I'd properly have to decline your offer. Actually I think I have learned enough about the Civil War and Sooooeeeee calls in high school . And, I'd first need someone as a teacher who spent more time researching his subject than on a web chat forum talking about "little black Sambos".
Thank you though it was very kind of you.
PS - Besides- most of my time has been spent in universities not colleges.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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All the red herrings in the world won't change the fact that ibn Butlan explicitly names Kutama, Masmuda, and Sanhadja.
Nothing will change the fact that the Kutama ethny and the Masmuda and Sanhadja confederations exist between the west (Maroc) and the south ("the sudan").
Nothing will change the fact that Somalia has no Sanhadja, no Masmuda, nor Kutama.
No doubt there are more places named "Berbera" than just one island off Somalia or the Yaman. One of them per ibn Butlan is obviously medieval Algeria.
Bottomline, ibn Butlan saw NW African "Berber" women as predominantly of a black skin colour. That is a fact most unassailable. Try to deflect it by bringing anything irrelevant into discussion it will not go away.
Amazigh activist can run from all documention of the black ancestry in their past and chase after every little ephemeral notice of white blonds but their root and trunk remain with the blacks of Africa. The blonds of Europe are only some twigs and leaves.
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: Now, that Ibn Butlan meant the Somalians by "The island Barbara" might be slightly disputed. But the claim of Altakruri on this sentence that "aljaza-ir" means that of Somalia is undesputed. It overclear that it refers to Somalia. ومن الجزائر التي تجاور سواحل اليمن جزيرة بربرة،
When ibn Butlan wrote that the Berbers were powerful to take their women as slaves. They were also all islamic, which means there would no legitimacy to take them as slaves, excepts by kidnapping them or other rare cases.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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So you acknowledge ibn Butlan described "Berber" women of NW Africa as predominantly black in skin colour?
So in the future you will mention that Tariq is described as black haired and swarthy in some accounts and blondish in other accounts?
I don't see you as an aMazigh activist because if you were, judging from my experiences, you wouldn't bother with posting here on forums manned mostly by blacks.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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No, i mantain sayying -like Dr. Haroun has noted- that Ibn Butlan knew a bit on the Berbers. So, he confused the already establishments on the Somali women -als called "Barbariya" which sounds/written as Berber in arabic-.
I'm not an Amazigh/Berber activist, i'm rather interested in the Berber history.
Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Apparently you do have the same problem aMazigh activists have when it comes to the blackness of "Berbers."
This quote وعلق عبد السلام هارون بأن جزيرة بربرة من الجزائر التي تجاور سواحل اليمن كما ذكر ياقوت وهذا وهم من ابن بطلان seems to say islands off of Yemen is not what ibn Butlan means.
You are confusing a city in Somalia with islands bordering Yemen.
Ibn Butlan presents no confusion.
Ibn Butlan explicitly names his Berber women's ancestry: * Kutama * Sanhadja * Masmuda
Please answer below in terms of the 11th century: 1). Who are the Kutama and where do they live? 2). Who are the Sanhadja and where do they live? 3). Who are the Masmuda and where do they live? 4). What is the predominant colour ibn Butlan ascribes to their women?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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The use of "island" does not literally mean land surrounded by water on all sides. In medieval Arabic texts "island" can mean enclave.
This is the sense ibn Butlan uses in the phrase "island of the Barbara." He obviously means a "Berber" enclave because the ethny (Kutama) and confederations (Sanhadja and Masmuda) are "Berbers."
posted
Those are Berber tribes..., but "confusion" is based on the combination of true and false...
By the way, what does your name mean? Because i was seeking a text distinguising the Berbers and those of Barbara, but i found this: ومن أممهم التكرور وهم على غربي النيل وبلادهم جنوبية غربية وببلادهم يتكون الذهب ومن أممهم الكانم وأكثرهم مسلمون وهم على النيل وهم على مذهب مالك وأما مدينة غانة فهي من أعظم مدن السودان وهي في أقصى جنوب المغرب ويسافر التجار من سجلماسة إِلى غانة وسجلماسة مدينة بالغرب الأقصى بعيدة عن البحر ويسيرون من سجلماسة إلى غانة في مفازة لا يوجد فيها الماء نحو اثني عشر يوماً ويحملون إِليهما التين والملح والنحاس والودع ولا يجلبون منها إِلا الذهب العين. http://www.al-eman.com/ISLAMLIB/viewchp.asp?BID=221&CID=12Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Where on any map of Yemen are there any islands Barbara/Berbera?
Al~Takruri is a nisba of ethnicity refering to a specific kingdom.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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No confusion. Kutama, Sanhadja, and Masmuda women certainly come from the Berber enclave. Ibn Butlan writing a technically descriptive manual for purchasers of enslaved people رسالة جامعيا لفنون نافيا في شعراء الرقيق catalogs the vast majority of Berber women as black of skin colour.
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: Those are Berber tribes..., but "confusion" is based on the combination of true and false...
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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بربرَةُ: هذه بلاد أخرى بين بلاد الحبش والزنج واليمنٍ على ساحل بحر اليمن وبحر الزنج وأهلها سودان جداً
He said "Barabara is another country... (since he speaking about the Berber, here he comes to distinguish them.., and then he said they are very black". It is between Habach-country (ethiopia- and Zanaj (Nubia?) and Yemen on the coast of Yeman and the Zanj-see.
Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Mazigh you're confusing yourself with a bunch of red herring texts instead of focusing on and analyzing the one ibn Butlan text Dana quoted.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Ibn Butlan’s 11th century slave treatise is in my opinion a very detailed, if at times disgusting, description of early Iraq’s mostly female slave population. It describes the different complexions and peculiarities of slave groups according to their places of origin.
See the book - Gender and sexuality in the Middle Ages: a medieval source documents reader by Martha A. Brozyna published 2005 p. 303
I don’t know who the translator is, if it was Brozyna the author or if she is quoting from Bernard Lewis, a famed Middle East historian who also cites Butlan.
One of Butlan's chapters is entitled: The Different Types of Slaves according to their Origins
Ibn Butlan is very careful in his descriptions speaking of “Negresses” (or whatever the European author thought should be translated as “Negresses” ), the Zanj (black), Zaghawa (black), native Arabian women of Medina (brown) and Taif in the district of Mecca (golden- brown), Beja (golden), Ethiopians (black), Berbers (“mostly black with some pale ones among them”, and the brown Sindh and Indi.
His description of those whom he calls "reddish whites" and “the whites” is also very clear (reddish-white Alans and the white Slavs, Greeks (blond), Armenians, Turks of his day).
Below are some excerpts found at the link above. Again, anyone out there who doubts what Butlan meant should read the following from the link.
“The women of Sindh are between the east and the south… The women of Medina are brown in color … The women of Ta’if are golden brown and shapely… The Berber women are from the island of Barbara which is between the east and the south… Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them... If you find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is Sanhaja and whose origin is Masmuda…”
Further down we have
The Bujja women are between the south and the west in the country which lies between Ethiopia and Nubia. They are golden in color with beautiful faces smooth bodies and …"
"The Yemeni women are the same race as the Egyptians with the body of the Berbers…” and so on.
He describes white beauty of Armenian (white) and Turkish women (“white) and speaks of the Greeks (blonde), Slavs (white) and Alans (reddish-white) as well as the Zaghawa and Zanj (black) whom he maligns.
“The Greek women are blond with straight hair and blue eyes…" etc.
From Butlan we learn the women of Medina and Egypt and Yemen as well as of the Beja "between Nubia and Ethiopia are brown and/or golden while the darker groupings are the "Ethiopians", Nubians, Berbers, Zaghawa Zanj whom he describes as black.
And Butlan said nothing different than what the Syrian Abu Shama 14th c., Iranian Nasr Khosrau and numerous European writers had mentioned concerning what the original Berber tribes looked like.
6th century AD - “The Moors have bodies black as night, while the skin of the Gauls is white..." written by Isidore of Seville found in The Etymologies of Isidore of Seville - by Steven A. Barney published 2007. p. 386
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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^ Dana, do you have any first-hand accounts or eyewitness reports from Iberians as to the appearance of the Moorish invaders? It would be excellent if you cited them, especially to the detriment of our resident nutty 'professor'.
Posts: 26361 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I think the translation may be from A. Mez The Renaissance of Islam trans. SK Bakhsh and DS Margoliouth Patna: Jubilee Printing and Publishing House, 1937
But watch out for Lewis. Arab(ic) reviewers have detected a detectable though slight bias in his work. See Fawzi Abdulrazak's 1991 review of Lewis(1990).
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: I don’t know who the translator is, if it was Brozyna the author or if she is quoting from Bernard Lewis, a famed Middle East historian who also cites Butlan.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Dana, do you have any first-hand accounts or eyewitness reports from Iberians as to the appearance of the Moorish invaders? It would be excellent if you cited them, especially to the detriment of our resident nutty 'professor'.
Actually the 13th century Primera Cronica edited by Alfonso the 10th of Castile from what I understand was of course the late period of Islamic Spain. That is where it was written about the earlier 8th century invasion that the faces of "the Moors" "were as black as pitch. The most handsome of them as black as a cooking pot..."
In the 9th century Sedulius Scotus a traveling Celtic monk wrote letters of suppport to the Italian ruler of the time facing Moorish incursions. He spoke about the "black faces" of the Moors and how in their "black mouths" "their tongues were stuck in their throats". I posted some other accounts that are also said to be later copies of eyewitness accounts on the posting about the Mauri,. such as the Viking (Danish)saga where they were supposed to have captured Moors from Spain.
Frankly, I believe that no matter how many of the European accounts are brought up we will always have people like hammered saying oh - "well that doesn't mean they were black-skinned - Europeans just used colorful descriptions" or but "... scholars don't agree with you Dana" - whatever that means. Or my favorite - "well, they still were negroid".
Look what happens with Ibn Butlan's 11th century personal account of the Berber women which comes from his own writings.
The fear of blackness is overwhelming among many of the Western or Islamic people.
One could put the two dozen descriptions of "Moors" in Spain, Portugal and Italy that exist and it probably wouldn't change a thing.
That is why I thought it would be useful to list the Arab tribes that occupied Spain, Portugal and Italy and what they looked like according to descriptions of early Arabic writers and modern colonial historians which I have done on my other postings.
In this way what the Moors looked like basically can not be refuted.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I think the translation may be from A. Mez The Renaissance of Islam trans. SK Bakhsh and DS Margoliouth Patna: Jubilee Printing and Publishing House, 1937
But watch out for Lewis. Arab(ic) reviewers have detected a detectable though slight bias in his work. See Fawzi Abdulrazak's 1991 review of Lewis(1990).
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: I don’t know who the translator is, if it was Brozyna the author or if she is quoting from Bernard Lewis, a famed Middle East historian who also cites Butlan.
Well if it was in 1937 that would probably explain the translator's use of such a word Negresses. I'm wondering what the original Arabic would have been.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Hahahhahaahh Ibn Butlan is funny hahhahaha in arabic it sounds a little more different than the arabic translation.
He says the Beja are golden and that they do female cirmcumcision. The funniest part is when in arabic he says that Beja are inclined to Bravery and Thievery and cannot be trusted with money or treasurer hahahh this is Beja we dont take orders and if its not tied down its Mine NOW.
Racist Ibn Jahl funny how he says that the Yemeni and Egyptians are the same
Posts: 410 | From: Al-Ard | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Actually the 13th century Primera Cronica edited by Alfonso the 10th of Castile from what I understand was of course the late period of Islamic Spain. That is where it was written about the earlier 8th century invasion that the faces of "the Moors" "were as black as pitch. The most handsome of them as black as a cooking pot..."
In the 9th century Sedulius Scotus a traveling Celtic monk wrote letters of suppport to the Italian ruler of the time facing Moorish incursions. He spoke about the "black faces" of the Moors and how in their "black mouths" "their tongues were stuck in their throats". I posted some other accounts that are also said to be later copies of eyewitness accounts on the posting about the Mauri,. such as the Viking (Danish)saga where they were supposed to have captured Moors from Spain.
Frankly, I believe that no matter how many of the European accounts are brought up we will always have people like hammered saying oh - "well that doesn't mean they were black-skinned - Europeans just used colorful descriptions" or but "... scholars don't agree with you Dana" - whatever that means. Or my favorite - "well, they still were negroid".
Look what happens with Ibn Butlan's 11th century personal account of the Berber women which comes from his own writings.
The fear of blackness is overwhelming among many of the Western or Islamic people.
One could put the two dozen descriptions of "Moors" in Spain, Portugal and Italy that exist and it probably wouldn't change a thing.
That is why I thought it would be useful to list the Arab tribes that occupied Spain, Portugal and Italy and what they looked like according to descriptions of early Arabic writers and modern colonial historians which I have done on my other postings.
In this way what the Moors looked like basically can not be refuted.
Eh, you may be right. I just wanted to see the reaction Hammered will display upon seeing what these actual accounts say. But considering his past M.O. he will find some insane way to dismiss them.
Posts: 26361 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: Procopius said that the Maures are called "Leuatae". But in other source he might have distinguished between the Maures and Leuatae/Laguatan.
Leutea was known as Luwata in the arabic source. A famous person from luwata was Ibn Battuta.
Sorry I haven't been back to this posting in a few months. I had to answer this because as you well know. Levathes were one of many tribes that were called Moors by Procopius and other writers. They include the Mazices or Mazikes and all the other so called Berber tribes along the coasts of Africa later known in Arab times by such names as Sanhaja, Masmuda, Ghomara, Zenata, Lamtuna etc.
I have already written much about this in other postings.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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