posted
I've reflected on my fascination with ancient civilizations, and I've come to the conclusion that they are overrated. Yes, ancient people like the Egyptians, Greeks, and Maya built some beautiful stone buildings and discovered some interesting facts of life, but by and large they were hierarchical, autocratic societies built on the assumption that certain men and women had to rule others. As an anarchist, while I can admit the historical significance of such cultures, I cannot celebrate them. It goes against my principles.
I absolve myself from this whole business about whether or not the ancient Egyptians were black. Yes, they were, but should black people today take pride in an authoritarian, ultraconservative society such as theirs? What we need in this world is more equality and freedom, not the romanticization of oppressive regimes like that of the Pharaohs.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Of course there was more to AE than the negative aspects you mentioned.
But hey, don't pay me any mind, wallow in your newfound realization.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
^Looking for the wrong enlightenment in all the wrong places.
Definition: "Anarchism is a political philosophy which considers the state undesirable, unnecessary and harmful, and instead promotes a stateless society, or anarchy."
The beginnings of civilization Quote: By then, the people of the area had already moved to the Nile River Valley. And it is here in the Nile Valley, where as these early human groups are forced to live closer and ever closer to each other, they start to cooperate with each other, and to learn from each other.
Over time, they begin to form the first pools of collective knowledge, (as an example of collective knowledge: no one person knows how to build a car by himself - it takes thousands of people, each pooling their individual knowledge and skills to build a car).
With this collective knowledge, early man first learns how to make better tools for fishing, hunting and butchering his kill, (in time, this collective knowledge would grow to the point where they can build the Pyramids).
Truthcentric - Without leadership, there is no way to channel the energy's and talents of ANY group.
Without group participation and leadership, there is no way to PROTECT yourself.
Civilization is built on the individuals innate understanding of this, and the individuals willingness to sacrifice some individual freedoms for the greater benefit.
Take your head out of your butt!
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
LMAO, I was not going to even entertain this non sense but Mike111(Suprisingly) is 100% correct(WOW). Anarchists live in a fantacy world, similar to Communists.
I don't see any of you Anarchist living your dream lifestyle so what gives?? Too comfortable in the fruits of civilization.
Just like Negros who complain bitch and whine about America but live in America..LMAO.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Truthcentric's right, the AE's invented imperialism
plus they had the whole population building huge stone mounds that they could store their bling in.
On the other hand, Truthcentric, one's political opinions should have no bearing on embarking in the field of physical anthropology. You don't have like a given culture to study it on a scientific level, if not to understand to learn not to repeat old mistakes
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
There's a line from the Pyramid Texts; "The fire-pan burns, those with ready hands stand to give an offering to the dead king". I believe this line references the building of a great pyramid. But even if it doesn't the simple fact is that nowhere in the PT do the writers differentiate between the common man and the nobles or priests. "He who flies, flies, and the dead king also flies away from you oh men". Yes, the king and some nobles apparently "live on figs" but there is very little distinction otherwise. Of course the king lives forever in heaven. People with "ready hands" want to do what they do.
I believe we entirely misapprehend these people to fit our beliefs and superstitions. Nowhere did the Egyptians say that the pyramids were tombs built with ramps and their words were nonsense, this is simply what we've read into the culture. Just because utterances begin with the words "to say", WE assume they must be incantation to be spoken aloud to be effective and never even consider that it simply meant they were read aloud to the crowds of common men. One utterance even begins "to say four times". This hardly sounds like a magic spell.
We assume since dragging stones up ramps in the desert heat wasn't a Sunday picnic then the pyramids must be tombs despite the fact the builders said over and over that they are not tombs.
And where did this nonsense that they mustta used ramps originate. This might have been a good enough answer in the 19th century but it's time people check there calendars and reexamine the facts. The facts clearly state that they must not have used ramps.
It's just ironic that you'd give up the study for this particular reason. I believe the world enterred a dark age of kowtowing to orthodoxy, religion, precedent, and leaders about 4300 years ago and we've yet to emerge.
Posts: 393 | From: NW Indiana, US of A | Registered: Aug 2006
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1) if ramps were not used to build the pyramids what was the primary tool structure for moving the stone?
2) If the pyramids were not tombs what were they?
3) Does the rw nw prt m hrw contain any magical spells?
I don't believe it's possible in an early bronze age economy to devote the resources necessary to build a great pyramid with ramps. Even if it were possible all the signs point away from it. There are no ramps in the cultural record. There are no Gods of Ramps nor even a single ramp builder among the many hundreds of job titles that are known. The job titles are concerned with boats, ropes, and "balance". The Pyramid Texts says that these are what's needed and these are the actual titles of the pyramid builders. Even the work crews were named after the parts of boats and boats were buried on site. They said the pyramid building pulled the sun across the sky and was the ka of the king who lived eternally in heaven. These are the actual meanings of the words they used. It is we who made too many assumptions about what they meant and ignored the literal meanings of what they said.
The evidence suggests that the pyramids were built using water filled counterweights that pulled stone straight up the side of the pyramid and there was a water collection device at the pyramid base that actually funneled water to the cliff face. This water was reused to pull stones up to the pyramid base.
The PT have a coherent literal meaning and it's very improbable that this is incidental. There are many ways that the pyramids might have been built but ramps are not among them.
I don't recogniize any of the heiroglyphs but will anticipate your last question concerns later works derived from the PT. I do believe these were primarily works of incantation. They still remembered how the pyramids were built when the coffin texts were written but it was eventually lost.
Posts: 393 | From: NW Indiana, US of A | Registered: Aug 2006
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1) if ramps were not used to build the pyramids what was the primary tool structure for moving the stone?
2) If the pyramids were not tombs what were they?
3) Does the rw nw prt m hrw contain any magical spells?
I don't believe it's possible in an early bronze age economy to devote the resources necessary to build a great pyramid with ramps. Even if it were possible all the signs point away from it. There are no ramps in the cultural record. There are no Gods of Ramps nor even a single ramp builder among the many hundreds of job titles that are known. The job titles are concerned with boats, ropes, and "balance". The Pyramid Texts says that these are what's needed and these are the actual titles of the pyramid builders. Even the work crews were named after the parts of boats and boats were buried on site. They said the pyramid building pulled the sun across the sky and was the ka of the king who lived eternally in heaven. These are the actual meanings of the words they used. It is we who made too many assumptions about what they meant and ignored the literal meanings of what they said.
The evidence suggests that the pyramids were built using water filled counterweights that pulled stone straight up the side of the pyramid and there was a water collection device at the pyramid base that actually funneled water to the cliff face. This water was reused to pull stones up to the pyramid base.
The PT have a coherent literal meaning and it's very improbable that this is incidental. There are many ways that the pyramids might have been built but ramps are not among them.
I don't recogniize any of the heiroglyphs but will anticipate your last question concerns later works derived from the PT. I do believe these were primarily works of incantation. They still remembered how the pyramids were built when the coffin texts were written but it was eventually lost.
If the pyramids were not tombs what were they?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: If the pyramids were not tombs what were they?
I believe they had several functions and if we could ask the Egyptians we'd get several answers. The most informed Egyptians would and the most popular answer would be that these are the ka of the king. The king lived eternally in heaven and was not complete without his ka which was the pyramid and soared to heaven. It was this belief that the king could help to protect Egypt forever that made men eager and provided them ready hands to build.
But nothing is ever so entirely simple. This was a pyramid building society up until the first intermediate period and there were several factors that led them to become a pyramid building society.
They believed that a good life required balance (ma'at) and that the boat of the sun could use help in traversing the sky. The ascender that lifted the stone (which was the ka of the king) also carried the sun across the sky. It was through balance that the the boat could ascend to heaven at all since it required an equal balanced amount of weight in the counterweight (called the []nw-boat) to lift the ascender.
The water source was a carbonated aquifer which lifted water above the plateau and before any pyramid was concieved there was a massive mound under the water source which was called the mound of creation or primeval mound. This mound was created by the minerals coming out of solution and these also made a conically shaped stone like a stalagmite where the water spurted out. This was called the ben ben stone and it was the ka (life work) of Atum. This stone was venerated and when the hole was drilled the stone was removed to a temple in Heliopolis. Bear withme here. The mound and ben ben built itself just as Atum created himself and spat out Shu (God of Upward) and Tefnut (Godess of Downward). The water could now be used for other purposes since after drilling the hole the quantity and vigor increased many fold. One of the reasons they built the great pyramids was to reestablish the mound and the ben ben high in the heavens. It was a sort of tribute and atonement to Atum. It was Atum whose place was usurped by Osiris after the water failed.
I believe they also wanted to leave a testament to themselves to remind future generations that they weren't ignorant savages. They wanted to say look what you can do if you try.
Keep in mind that no matter how the pyramid was built it required a large amount of work but if they really used water filled counterweights then it was far lesser work. Since ramps are probably impossible the simple fact is each of the great pyramids were as large as they could build with the available resources. They got much much larger over time because the technology improved so dramatically. The fact is that these are remarkable achievments and the fact they couldn't be built with ramps does not detract from them at all.
Posts: 393 | From: NW Indiana, US of A | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: If the pyramids were not tombs what were they?
I should add that it's not impossible that they served some more practical function as well. I lean against these theories since most is explicable in terms of construction needs but until such time as theses are studied from a scientific understanding of facts then such things should not be entirely ruled out. I believe if such a practical function existed that its importance was secondary to other reasons for building. It could have been the spark though that made this a pyramid building society.
Posts: 393 | From: NW Indiana, US of A | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:I absolve myself from this whole business about whether or not the ancient Egyptians were black. Yes, they were, but should black people today take pride in an authoritarian, ultraconservative society such as theirs? What we need in this world is more equality and freedom, not the romanticization of oppressive regimes like that of the Pharaohs.
How could you absolve yourself of the question of whether or not the Egyptians were black and in the same breath say they were black?
Bertrand Russell described ancient Romans as brutal, obstinate, and stupid. Yet if out of some twist in historical fate future generations come to regard these Romans as, lets say Inuit, wouldn't the people who fought to correct this notion be correct in so doing?
Many people black, white, Asian, Hispanic, etc, have been adamant about correcting the record regarding the origins of ancient Egyptian civilization. Who are you to reduce their efforts to a black pride movement?
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
^Apocalypse - So what are you saying; forget the evidence (artifacts etc.), forget the common sense, it's "AFRICA" (no Whites anywhere near before the Scythians), so that we may give the liars and bullsh1ting racists equal time? Is that what you are saying?
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
^Not sure how you got that from my statement. Can you clarify Mike111?
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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Quote: "Many people black, white, Asian, Hispanic, etc, have been adamant about correcting the record regarding the origins of ancient Egyptian civilization. Who are you to reduce their efforts to a black pride movement?"
Truthcentric - said that they were Black. If you agreed with him, there was no reason to comment.
But you did comment, with the connotation that those "black, white, Asian, Hispanic, etc," came to a DIFFERENT conclusion than Truthcentric.
I asked you for clarification.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Many people black, white, etc, etc., have sought to correct the record. This record, based upon many lines evidence, demonstrated that Ancient Egyptian civilization unequivically originated amongst and throughout its history remained predominantly Black and African.
What I was pointing out in regard to Truthcentric's statement is his usual flip flopping about whether or not ancient Egypt was black. That is what "I absolve myself from this whole business about whether or not the Egyptians were black" means. You cannot absolve yourself of the question and at the same time involve yourself in the question. Nor is it even a question or as he puts it "this whole business"
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: I've reflected on my fascination with ancient civilizations, and I've come to the conclusion that they are overrated. Yes, ancient people like the Egyptians, Greeks, and Maya built some beautiful stone buildings and discovered some interesting facts of life, but by and large they were hierarchical, autocratic societies built on the assumption that certain men and women had to rule others. As an anarchist, while I can admit the historical significance of such cultures, I cannot celebrate them. It goes against my principles.
I absolve myself from this whole business about whether or not the ancient Egyptians were black. Yes, they were, but should black people today take pride in an authoritarian, ultraconservative society such as theirs? What we need in this world is more equality and freedom, not the romanticization of oppressive regimes like that of the Pharaohs.
Good for you truthcentric. History is a wonderful study to explore. It helps to understand the past to help you define your future. Let us know what field you end up in and hopefully it is your passion.
Posts: 2403 | Registered: Feb 2010
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posted
Truthcentric - Good you made a decision. But this is bigger than "Egypt". These fools are trying to sweep our entire existence and Identity from up under our feet. If you notice they never discuss Egypt.....They attempt to white was the Saharans, Sub Saharans, and Nilotic people that populated Egypt.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
I just think people didn't want Truthcentric poking around mummies with biological testing equipment,
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
I actually agree with Truthcentric but the greatest thing about ancient egypt was that it claimed to be the home of the Cosmic Thrown of Order do u know what this Means.
Ancient Egyptians Considered there Royal Kingdom as the Seat of the Cosmic Order and all others who were hostile to them were chaos trying to disturb the Cosmic Order of the Universe.
Egypt was AFrican Hegemony In its perfecttion
Posts: 410 | From: Al-Ard | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: I've reflected on my fascination with ancient civilizations, and I've come to the conclusion that they are overrated. Yes, ancient people like the Egyptians, Greeks, and Maya built some beautiful stone buildings and discovered some interesting facts of life, but by and large they were hierarchical, autocratic societies built on the assumption that certain men and women had to rule others. As an anarchist, while I can admit the historical significance of such cultures, I cannot celebrate them. It goes against my principles.
I absolve myself from this whole business about whether or not the ancient Egyptians were black. Yes, they were, but should black people today take pride in an authoritarian, ultraconservative society such as theirs? What we need in this world is more equality and freedom, not the romanticization of oppressive regimes like that of the Pharaohs.
The same questions could be asked of European civilizations such as Greece. Why should whites celebrate a people who owned slaves, had only a small percentage of people with the right to vote, practiced extensive homosexuality, had superstitious religion with a pantheon of often corrupt gods and goddesses such as serial rapist Zeus, produced vicious military dictatorships such as that of Sparta with its suppressed majority of helots who had little or no rights, etc etc.. I notice you don't expand your complaint to much valorized white cultures...
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quote:Originally posted by Apocalypse: Understood and I'll clarify.
Many people black, white, etc, etc., have sought to correct the record. This record, based upon many lines evidence, demonstrated that Ancient Egyptian civilization unequivically originated amongst and throughout its history remained predominantly Black and African.
What I was pointing out in regard to Truthcentric's statement is his usual flip flopping about whether or not ancient Egypt was black. That is what "I absolve myself from this whole business about whether or not the Egyptians were black" means. You cannot absolve yourself of the question and at the same time involve yourself in the question. Nor is it even a question or as he puts it "this whole business"
Excellent point. The ancient Egyptians were overwhelmingly indigenous, tropically adapted Africans. Whether assorted individuals choose to "absolve" themselves of this historical fact, is irrelevant. The facts are what they are.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Apocalypse: How could you absolve yourself of the question of whether or not the Egyptians were black and in the same breath say they were black?
Bertrand Russell described ancient Romans as brutal, obstinate, and stupid. Yet if out of some twist in historical fate future generations come to regard these Romans as, lets say Inuit, wouldn't the people who fought to correct this notion be correct in so doing?
Many people black, white, Asian, Hispanic, etc, have been adamant about correcting the record regarding the origins of ancient Egyptian civilization. Who are you to reduce their efforts to a black pride movement?
You have a great point. I've decided to return to this debate. Sorry for the flip flop.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Brandon, Brandon, quite contrary, How does your garden grow? With silver bells, and cockle shells, And pretty maids all in a row. ......
All around the Mulberry Bush, The monkey chased the weasel. The monkey stopped to pull up his sock Pop! goes the weasel.
Just Call Her Lyin-ass in the Morning Lyin-ass Just Touch my cheek before you leave me-Darling Just Call Her Lyin-ass in the Morning Baby Then slowly turn away from me ...
....TruthCentric joins Lioness in the Spin-Tactic Dance Club....Spinning all around the Mulberry Bush..
Truthcentric....
....AKA Brandon Quite Contrary..
....Spinning...all around the Mulberry Bush...
Just Call Him Brandon....Brandon.....Quite Contrary in the Morning..
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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