posted
I am trying to understand where this idea among certain ahistorical bloggers that Moor 'meant Muslim" in Spain when variants of the word still mean black in some Latin American countries and is a color term in ALL of them.
Isidore of Seville, Spain specifically wrote not only that the Mauri "were black as night and the Gauls white" but also says that the term definition Mauri was black. The Christian Isidore “underlines the fact that Moors ARE SO NAMED BECAUSE THEY ARE BLACK, ..." St. Isidore(9.2.121-23)” (Ramey, L., 2008).
Would an Afrocentric or any historian for that matter waste time now going around the internet explaining how Goths were not white and how that was just poetic extravagance. And pretend Isidore never saw a Goth or Moor.
A highly comprehensive study was evidently done on the Mozarabs by Francisco Javier Simonet, writer of Historia de los Mozarabs, with a glossary. According to Simonet in the language of the Mozarabes "Mauro" meant Negro and "corresponded to Castillian usage of which moro was applied to horses whose color is negro." From Jack Forbes Africans and Native Americans p. 64, 297
Now rather than trying to bring down the messenger who tells us about Simonet or calling Afrocentrics "racists" for something that European historians and dictionaries wrote, or trying to change the meaning of Moro to Muslim and the word Negro into tan it would have been more feasible to look at the history of the Muslim tribes and disprove that there were not black people called Moro in Spain.
This of course hasn't been done and would only end up in frustration because we know in fact the names of the many clans from Arabia and North Africa that once occupied the towns of Spain and Portugal and we also know how many of these people still look and were said to have looked.
The phrase 'Moorish Arabs" also used dictates that not all of the Muslim people in Spain (and there were many)were considered Moro or Moorish. Most importantly we know that Moorish culture was not the same as Middle Eastern culture contrary to a new assertions and attempts to ignore the very concept of a "Moorish" culture.
We know that some of what set apart Moorish civilization from the general Middle eastern and or Syrian and Central Asian brand of Islam were the Berber people and Arabian people two groups known for their black appearance well until the 15th century. Both of these people had differences in music,cultural heritage and history than Syrians, Kurds, Slavs or Saqqalibah and Central Asians from Iran and Turkmenistan who also came into Spain in lesser numbers in some periods.
It is not the above Middle Eastern people but the darkest-skinned Berber people of the Upper Atlas today who still maintain the stamping castanet usage and clapping typical of flamenco and African American tap dancing as well as the improvisation typical of African folk cultural forms. And of course the Moorish wail is found among darker skinned Mauretanian musicians. Thus, to talk about Moorish civilization without noting the unusual influence on the arts by these blacks is of course useless. If one doesn't like the term black that doesn't change the way the Mozarabs used the term Moro.
Like I said I am also trying to understand where this idea of some certain ahistorical posters that Moor 'meant Muslim" in Spain - a laughable proposition at best when variants of the word still means black in Spanish speaking countries. Which means at the time of the "Conquistadors' moved into other parts of the world the word Moro was still a color term.
Mexicans can still be heard calling African Americans "Morenos" and there it apparently means a dark brown person. In other countries it either means "the brunette", the dark complexioned or else "the black man".
Regardless of where one comes from the term Moor or Moro and its variants is a term of complexion and not of religion.
"The etymology of Moreno and Negro seem to stem from the same root, the Latin diminutive of Maurus through Mozarabic and Castillian Spanish. None the less, moreno means black in Ecuador; it is not used to refer to people of lighter skin, or to brunet(te)s. " Blackness in Latin America by Norman E. Whitten and ARlene Torres, Jr. 1998.
At the very most and especially Latin coutries the word meant various shades of darkness. When this transferred over to North Africans in general may be a question reasoning minds might want to ask, but the idea that it ever meant Muslims in general or Slav in Spain is out of the question.
Now rather than calling Afrocentrics racists for something that European historians and dictionaries said until recently and trying to change the meaning of Moro to "Muslim" and Negro to tan it would have been more feasible to look at the history of the Muslim tribes in Spain and when they ruled.
This naturally wasn't done - which is why I had to do a bit of research and dig up books like the Muslim Conquest and Settlement of North Africa and Spain, by Taha and Taha..
The early original sources these books use are explicit about the clans of Arabians that occupied Spain and founded and settled places like Cordoba, Elvira, Toledo, Baen, and Grenada too name a few - despite the desperate protestations of some!lol! Similarly other texts are explicit in describing what these clans looked like and let us know why Arabs called themselves the blacks, and why the term Arab or Arabi in Turkey still means the black man. Oh I'm sorry - did I neglect to mention this somewhere.
Anyone who wants some examples of where these black clans of Arabians such as the Kudha'a, Kays or Qays, Rabi'ah, Kab bin Rabi'a, Hudhail, Juhaynah, Azd, Sulaym, Hilal, Hawazin, Hamdan, Abs, Bakr bin Wa'il etc went into Spain can go to these links.
A sample from the second link shows that even modern black Arabs in Iraq are among the supposedly non-existent black populations that settled Spain.
I named the section - Ka’ab bin Rabi’a, of the Banu Amir: Their Settlements of “Moorish” Spain
Muntafiq bin Uqayl were called “the most powerful tribe in southern Babylonia” see in E.J. Brills First Encyclopaedia of Islam 1913 – 1936 ) by M. Th. Houtsma. The Khafaja, a branch of the Muntafik "commanded the road from Basra to Kufa" in Mesopotamia (Iraq) as late as the the 19th century. (My how things change.)
(Please note at the time of the writing I wasn't assuming these people figured among the oppressed black tribes in modern southern Iraq. But we learn something new everyday.)
"In the early Islamic era one of the leaders of the Kab bin Amir bin Sa’sa’a (Za’za’a) tribe was Sulayman bin Shihab. “Some of his kinsmen settled in a village called Tighnar, Tignar, northwest of Granada.” (Taha & Taha, p. 136).
The clan of Uqayl bin Ka’b bin Amir lived in Jaen, Guadix and Manisha, Mentesa in Spain. (Taha & Taha, p. 144). Two clans of the al Muntafiq bin Uqayl bin Ka’b settled Spain in Guadix. They were known as Banu Sami and Banu Hajib. (Taha, p. 144), while Qushayr or Qusayr from the Ka’ab bin Amer bin Sa’sa’a colonized Jaen and Elvira.
A 10th or 11th century compilation called, Akhbar Majmu’a fiy Fath al Andalus mentions the Ka’b bin Amir clans of Uqayl, Qusayr, al Harish, Kilab fighting the Banu Muharib clans and the Hawazin bin Mansur and Sulaym bin Mansur over the leadership of Andalusia. (see Taha & Taha, p. 228)"
The so called peak of power of Moorish Iberia if we are to believe Wikipedia. Needless to say the leaders of this period are no where represented as black in later Spanish art or sculpture! In fact non-black people supposed to be Moors appear in the strangest places. Rogers noted one done by a Christian painter placed on the ceiling of the Al Hambra.
Thus ancestors of the discriminated against BLACK tribes of the Ka'b bin Rabi'ah known as Kilab, Muntafiq ibn Uqayl and Uqayl bin Ka'b are mentioned in original sources as fighting against the "black as lava" Sulaym of Ibn Jahiz and the "Akhdar" Muharib - a branch of the still BLACK shining skinned Hudhail tribe.
It is not the fault of Afrocentrists that these people are BLACK, called themselves BLACK or that they were called black by early Middle Easterners and named as the peoples fighting over Andalusia in the 11th century. Just as it is not the fault of Afrocentrists that they are oppressed by these same non-black Middle Easterners today.
Don't call me a revisionist or radical Afrocentrist because I have decided to be messenger of the TRUTH.
Some of us just need to get over fear of blackness and stop pretending they didn't exist! No one is saying other Muslims hadn't lived among them in Spain.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Quick example in Cuba the name for black beans and white rice is Moros Y Cristianos = Moors and Christians.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:also Originally posted anguishofbeing: AE = mixed; Moor = mixed; Roman and Greek = white
false quotes are a weak argument technique
secondly, no recognition that some people are intermediate in appearance due to moderately more Northern ancestry rather necessarily "mixed" as in one parent being black the other white. Keita pointed this out. The mentality is similar to a multi regional mindset that there are pure "races" and any body who looks "in between" must be a "mix". Evolutionary gradients are ignored
Juba I of Numidia or Juba I (c. 85 BC – 46 BC, reigned 60 BC – 46 BC) was a King of Numidia.
quote:Originally posted by the lyingass: false quotes are a weak argument technique
And so are spammed pictures of modern day people, who by the way look obviously mixed with black ancestry.
quote:secondly, no recognition that some people are intermediate in appearance due to moderately more Northern ancestry rather necessarily "mixed" as in one parent being black the other white. Keita pointed this out. The mentality is similar to a multi regional mindset that there are pure "races" and any body who looks "in between" must be a "mix". Evolutionary gradients are ignored.
There is no need to distort Keita's words. Of course there is a wide range of color gradient which is exactly why blacks come in a variety of shades. Also your "intermediate look" argument was debunked several times before. North Africa is in the subtropics NOT temperate climate and its indigenous populations are still BLACK. Arabia is both subtropical and tropical in the south with its indigenous populations also being black and closely related to Africans right next door.
quote:
Juba I of Numidia or Juba I (c. 85 BC – 46 BC, reigned 60 BC – 46 BC) was a King of Numidia.
Again, picture spamming is another weak argument technique especially if the pictures in question are colored statues and other portraits. It was shown in another thread that are peoples in North Africa who have the exact same features as Juba and are still black.
Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Wonderful essay by the way, Dana. I love the way its worded including the sarcasm. You are right that some people just can't get over their fear of blackness (folks like LYINGASS). They will continue to deny and argue no matter what the evidence says. Even if you cite them actual quotes and descriptions from the very Europeans who saw the Moors and state that the very term 'Moor' means black, they will deny it. In a way it's kind of scary. People who deny reality would be clinically labeled as suffering from psychotic delusions yet here they are free to not only visit forums in cyberspace but walk the streets in public. Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
like Mike said on his website they were predominantly white and there were some black people an people who do not fall into the black or white two type system also
Well we'll just be fair and apply the same thing in reverse to Egypt now. But that's not how history works Each situation is different it is not a matter of politically correct fairness thing of some sort. The past is filled with exploitation and competition we can't change it
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: Quick example in Cuba the name for black beans and white rice is Moros Y Cristianos = Moors and Christians.
fyi this is what i meant a few months back, not moros y blancos, my memory's rusty. Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lyingass: Djehooti haven't noticed the colonialism yet?
turning wishful Afro-eccentic too?
It's disappointing you fall for that
Hey exposed-ass liar, what does Greco-Roman colonialism have to do with the FACTS that Moors were black and the very word Moor meant black??
Greco-Romanized depictions of North African rulers does NOT in any way negate, contradict, or refute anything Dana has written.
Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: "The etymology of Moreno and Negro seem to stem from the same root, the Latin diminutive of Maurus through Mozarabic and Castillian Spanish. None the less, moreno means black in Ecuador; it is not used to refer to people of lighter skin, or to brunet(te)s. " Blackness in Latin America by Norman E. Whitten and ARlene Torres, Jr. 1998.
Great post! So it's like I said in the other thread. Negro seems to have its origins in Spanish and bastardized forms of it like "N*gger" stem from this root which was originally applied to the dark-skinned Moors. It's funny because I saw an documentary a while back about the origins of the N-word and everyone was throwing out their ideas. No one said it went back to the Middle Ages and applied to the Moors. That right there should tell Blacks a WHOLE lot about their history and heritage. A whole lot!
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Yes, but unfortunately we have a lot of lyingasses out there uncomfortable with the FACT of black invasion and presence in Europe so they try to change the definition of Moor into 'Muslim'. LOLPosts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: like Mike said on his website they were predominantly white and there were some black people an people who do not fall into the black or white two type system also
Well we'll just be fair and apply the same thing in reverse to Egypt now. But that's not how history works Each situation is different it is not a matter of politically correct fairness thing of some sort. The past is filled with exploitation and competition we can't change it
Political correctness has nothing to do with your crackpot "mulatto" ancient Egypt theory and ignorant reading of Keita et al.
Also, every ancient civilization had predominant types with mixing (people like to fuk) occurring between peoples: the natives and foreign elements.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: like Mike said on his website they were predominantly white and there were some black people an people who do not fall into the black or white two type system also
Well we'll just be fair and apply the same thing in reverse to Egypt now. But that's not how history works Each situation is different it is not a matter of politically correct fairness thing of some sort. The past is filled with exploitation and competition we can't change it
Political correctness has nothing to do with your crackpot "mulatto" ancient Egypt theory and ignorant reading of Keita et al.
Also, every ancient civilization had predominant types with mixing (people like to fuk) occurring between peoples: the natives and foreign elements.
You'd be surprised how many historians are going with the mixed origins theory that Lioness is pushing. I wish I had my World History textbook in front of me right now to show you how they just include everybody in the founding of Ancient Egypt.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Indeed, yet these same sources would have you believe Greece was a lily white European society. LOL
But back to the topic, what the hell does mixing have to do with the simple FACT that Moor meant black NOT "mixed".
Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Still awaiting anything valid that can refute what Dana cited.
LOL - me too, Djehuti. Greco-Roman looking sculptures and coins just don't do it for me. : )
Even National Geographic says the coin lyin'snake claims is Syphax was originally thought to be Hannibal and in their opinion is probably a Roman and not an AFrican. I should find it NG article and post it but its not even worth it.
The photos she posted of men could very well also represent modern people of Central Asia and some Slavic countries where they in part probably derive.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: "The etymology of Moreno and Negro seem to stem from the same root, the Latin diminutive of Maurus through Mozarabic and Castillian Spanish. None the less, moreno means black in Ecuador; it is not used to refer to people of lighter skin, or to brunet(te)s. " Blackness in Latin America by Norman E. Whitten and ARlene Torres, Jr. 1998.
Great post! So it's like I said in the other thread. Negro seems to have its origins in Spanish and bastardized forms of it like "N*gger" stem from this root which was originally applied to the dark-skinned Moors. It's funny because I saw an documentary a while back about the origins of the N-word and everyone was throwing out their ideas. No one said it went back to the Middle Ages and applied to the Moors. That right there should tell Blacks a WHOLE lot about their history and heritage. A whole lot!
And the word N*gger was supposed to be originally just the Scottish pronunication of the Latin Niger or Nigri and Spanish Negro. The old Gaelic text translated in the 1600s described the Mauri fighting with the Vikings saying "Mauri is the same as Negri" and Mauritania the same as "nigritudo" (according to Jack Forbes).
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
The fact is the tribes that lived in Spain are well documented we know their names and places of origin and many of them are described as black in by non-Arab Middle Eastern peoples during the same period. So to say these then Negroid or "black" peoples, "the Berbers", Arabians and other Africans prior to the 15th century did not make up the predominent part of North Africa and the Moorish period of the Iberian peninsula is the real problem - or sickness I might add.
Negrophobes seek to ignore the documentation of who the specific tribes contributing to the the Moorish poopulations. When they do admit a population was black they are happy to quickly interject "but they weren't Negroids'. lol!
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Wonderful essay by the way, Dana. I love the way its worded including the sarcasm. You are right that some people just can't get over their fear of blackness (folks like LYINGASS). They will continue to deny and argue no matter what the evidence says. Even if you cite them actual quotes and descriptions from the very Europeans who saw the Moors and state that the very term 'Moor' means black, they will deny it. In a way it's kind of scary. People who deny reality would be clinically labeled as suffering from psychotic delusions yet here they are free to not only visit forums in cyberspace but walk the streets in public.
Djehuti - scary is an understatement. Some of these people definitely belong in straitjackets, and would in another time be among those pictured in old American photographs smirking while watching some black man being lynched. Thus, when I said sociopathic in reference to such people i am really not joking. This Just call me Jari character is a good example and i truly believe is partly schizophrenic - seriously.
On the other hand some of these people are definitely not real white or European people and yet still think that they are somehow better than the so-called "Negro"- a word which is tantamount only to "Koolie" in western parlance.
Others like Lyin'ass just have a serious inferiority complex having lived among Europeans too long.
From now on i will not be using words that veil the truth about who black people of Africa are. All the people of the Horn are as far as i am concerned descendents of Nilotic Negroes (Samburu are a good example) that got mixed with "Bushman" or "Capoids" and later aborbed some white i.e. Eurasian blood like African Americans did. There is nothing in genetics that tells us otherwise.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: Quick example in Cuba the name for black beans and white rice is Moros Y Cristianos = Moors and Christians.
Just more proof of the way the word Moros was seen and utilized by Christian Spaniards at the time they Moors and other Muslims were kicked out.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ I'd like to see someone argue that black beans then were "Muslim" or "mixed". LOL
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: ..Negrophobes seek to ignore the documentation of who the specific tribes contributing to the the Moorish poopulations. When they do admit a population was black they are happy to quickly interject "but they weren't Negroids'. lol!
Oh yes, the old Hamitic (i.e. black-skinned white) race. LOL
quote: Others like Lyin'ass just have a serious inferiority complex having lived among Europeans too long.
I personally think Lyin'ass IS a white person of European descent. It's not the first time we get white trolls pretending to be 'black' here. LOL
quote:From now on i will not be using words that veil the truth about who black people of Africa are. All the people of the Horn are as far as i am concerned descendents of Nilotic Negroes (Samburu are a good example) that got mixed with "Bushman" or "Capoids" and later aborbed some white i.e. Eurasian blood like African Americans did. There is nothing in genetics that tells us otherwise.
Here I must disagree with this outdated belief. The black people of the Horn as they are in the Guinea region of Western Sudan are diverse and simply are not a mixture of bushman peoples with Nilote and Eurasians.
Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: Quick example in Cuba the name for black beans and white rice is Moros Y Cristianos = Moors and Christians.
Just more proof of the way the word Moros was seen and utilized by Christian Spaniards at the time they Moors and other Muslims were kicked out.
Well, anyone who doesn't get the point by this example, there may be no hope for. Doesn't get any clearer than Moros Y Christianos a.k.a Moors and Christians a.k.a black beans and white rice.
posted
ancient Numidia and Muraetania are two different kingdoms, or some will say the Maure were part of Numidia.
Numidia and Mauretania were originally Berber kingdoms to the west of Carthage in present-day Algeria and part of Tunisia . The people were made up of nomadic mountain pastoralists and settled farmers along the coast. The pastoralists herded sheep, goats, and sometimes cattle. The ruling class was strongly influenced by Greek and Phoenician culture and later by Roman culture. Outside of the towns and large estates, the people remained Berber in language and culture. The Romans formed an alliance with Numidia but later conquered it and made it a Roman province. Mauretania was also absorbed by the Romans. The Romans imposed heavy taxes on the wheat and olive oil of Numidia. When Rome fell, Berber chieftains retook the area.
The name Numidia was first applied by Polybius and other historians during the third century BC.
the term Berber appeared for the first time after the end of the Roman Empire, the relevance of its use for the previous period is not accepted by all historians of antiquity.
The best known of the ancient Berbers were the Numidian king Masinissa 238 B.C. - 148 B.C.
Ruler of the North African kingdom of Numidia. Originally an ally of Carthage, he switched sides to help Rome after being persuaded by Scipio Africanus the Elder (206). After winning the Battle of Zama (202), he was awarded a larger kingdom. Though displeased with the presence of Cato's army in Africa (149), he remained faithful to Rome and a client of the Scipios until his death. His father was Gala chief of the Massylians .
Carthage, a port city on the north coast of Africa in the area of present-day Tunisia and Algeria, was established in 814 b.c. by Phoenician settlers who eventually dominated the local North African farmers and nomads. Phoenician merchants along the Mediterranean coast, settled farmers of the watered plains, and the migrating shepherds of the steppe land bordering the Sahara Desert coexisted with the exchange of both trade and culture. The increasing economic and military power of the unified city-state of Carthage resulted in its domination of the fragmented tribes of the Numidians.
The earliest myths regarding the nomadic tribes we today call berbers come from the greeks. they claimed that when Herakles died in Spain and his army dispersed the Persians, Medians, and Indians crossed over to Africa. there they began conquering the indigenous tribes of gaetulians and Libyans. the Medians became the Maures, or Mauretanians in western Morocco and the Persians, or Indians depending on the versian, became the nomads, or Numidians.
The name 'Numidian' means nomad as the Numidians were a semi-nomadic people dwelling in modern Algeria, Tunisia, and parts of eastern Morocco.
The Earliest known ruler of the Numidians was a man named Ailymas, or Alyamus, who appears in the account by Diodorus Siculus of Agathocles' invasion of North Africa. though the text refers to all native North Africans as Libyans, Ailymas is described as coming from the area we identify as Numidia.
It is commonly hypothesized that Ailymas ruled the Numidian town of Thugga, modern Dougga, and was the ancestor of Zelalsen, who is the gradfather of the well known Massinissa.
The Massylian tribe began rising to dominance under Gala, son of Zelalsen, who followed his father's conquests capturing the later capital of Cirta and even attacking Carthaginian territory. By the second Punic war, however, Gala had allied with Carthage and sent his eldest son, Massinissa, to aid carthage in Spain.
Berbers moved south to Mauritania beginning in the 3rd century, followed by Arabs in the 8th century, subjugating and assimilating Mauritania's original inhabitants. From the 8th through the 15th century, black kingdoms of the western Sudan, such as Ghana, Mali, and Songhai, brought their political culture from the south.[2]
The divisive tendencies of the various groups within Mauritanian society have always worked against the development of Mauritanian unity. Both the Sanhadja Confederation, at its height from the 8th to the 10th century, and the Almoravid Empire, from the 11th to the 12th century, were weakened by internecine warfare, and both succumbed to further invasions from the Ghana Empire and the Almohad Empire, respectively.[2]
The one external influence that tended to unify the country was Islam. The Islamization of Mauritania was a gradual process that spanned more than 500 years. Beginning slowly through contacts with Berber and Arab merchants engaged in the important caravan trades and rapidly advancing through the Almoravid conquests, Islamization did not take firm hold until the arrival of Yemeni Arabs in the 12th and 13th centuries and was not complete until several centuries later. Gradual Islamization was accompanied by a process of Arabization as well, during which the Berber masters of Mauritania lost power and became vassals of their Arab conquerors
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ And what is the purpose of those portraits? By the way, the black-and-white versions fail to convey the true complexions which were often tanned or brownish.
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass: ancient Numidia and Muraetania are two different kingdoms, or some will say the Maure were part of Numidia.
Numidia and Mauretania were originally Berber kingdoms to the west of Carthage in present-day Algeria and part of Tunisia . The people were made up of nomadic mountain pastoralists and settled farmers along the coast. The pastoralists herded sheep, goats, and sometimes cattle. The ruling class was strongly influenced by Greek and Phoenician culture and later by Roman culture. Outside of the towns and large estates, the people remained Berber in language and culture. The Romans formed an alliance with Numidia but later conquered it and made it a Roman province. Mauretania was also absorbed by the Romans. The Romans imposed heavy taxes on the wheat and olive oil of Numidia. When Rome fell, Berber chieftains retook the area.
The name Numidia was first applied by Polybius and other historians during the third century BC.
the term Berber appeared for the first time after the end of the Roman Empire, the relevance of its use for the previous period is not accepted by all historians of antiquity.
The best known of the ancient Berbers were the Numidian king Masinissa 238 B.C. - 148 B.C.
Ruler of the North African kingdom of Numidia. Originally an ally of Carthage, he switched sides to help Rome after being persuaded by Scipio Africanus the Elder (206). After winning the Battle of Zama (202), he was awarded a larger kingdom. Though displeased with the presence of Cato's army in Africa (149), he remained faithful to Rome and a client of the Scipios until his death. His father was Gala chief of the Massylians .
Carthage, a port city on the north coast of Africa in the area of present-day Tunisia and Algeria, was established in 814 b.c. by Phoenician settlers who eventually dominated the local North African farmers and nomads. Phoenician merchants along the Mediterranean coast, settled farmers of the watered plains, and the migrating shepherds of the steppe land bordering the Sahara Desert coexisted with the exchange of both trade and culture. The increasing economic and military power of the unified city-state of Carthage resulted in its domination of the fragmented tribes of the Numidians.
The earliest myths regarding the nomadic tribes we today call berbers come from the greeks. they claimed that when Herakles died in Spain and his army dispersed the Persians, Medians, and Indians crossed over to Africa. there they began conquering the indigenous tribes of gaetulians and Libyans. the Medians became the Maures, or Mauretanians in western Morocco and the Persians, or Indians depending on the versian, became the nomads, or Numidians.
The name 'Numidian' means nomad as the Numidians were a semi-nomadic people dwelling in modern Algeria, Tunisia, and parts of eastern Morocco.
The Earliest known ruler of the Numidians was a man named Ailymas, or Alyamus, who appears in the account by Diodorus Siculus of Agathocles' invasion of North Africa. though the text refers to all native North Africans as Libyans, Ailymas is described as coming from the area we identify as Numidia.
It is commonly hypothesized that Ailymas ruled the Numidian town of Thugga, modern Dougga, and was the ancestor of Zelalsen, who is the gradfather of the well known Massinissa.
The Massylian tribe began rising to dominance under Gala, son of Zelalsen, who followed his father's conquests capturing the later capital of Cirta and even attacking Carthaginian territory. By the second Punic war, however, Gala had allied with Carthage and sent his eldest son, Massinissa, to aid carthage in Spain.
Berbers moved south to Mauritania beginning in the 3rd century, followed by Arabs in the 8th century, subjugating and assimilating Mauritania's original inhabitants. From the 8th through the 15th century, black kingdoms of the western Sudan, such as Ghana, Mali, and Songhai, brought their political culture from the south.[2]
The divisive tendencies of the various groups within Mauritanian society have always worked against the development of Mauritanian unity. Both the Sanhadja Confederation, at its height from the 8th to the 10th century, and the Almoravid Empire, from the 11th to the 12th century, were weakened by internecine warfare, and both succumbed to further invasions from the Ghana Empire and the Almohad Empire, respectively.[2]
The one external influence that tended to unify the country was Islam. The Islamization of Mauritania was a gradual process that spanned more than 500 years. Beginning slowly through contacts with Berber and Arab merchants engaged in the important caravan trades and rapidly advancing through the Almoravid conquests, Islamization did not take firm hold until the arrival of Yemeni Arabs in the 12th and 13th centuries and was not complete until several centuries later. Gradual Islamization was accompanied by a process of Arabization as well, during which the Berber masters of Mauritania lost power and became vassals of their Arab conquerors
Okay, and how does the presence of foreign elites change the FACT that the actual indigenous populations by and large were still BLACK and thus MAURE/MOOR/MORO??
Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] ^ And what is the purpose of those portraits? By the way, the black-and-white versions fail to convey the true complexions which were often tanned or brownish.
I'll try better next time
Posts: 318 | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: ancient Numidia and Muraetania are two different kingdoms, or some will say the Maure were part of Numidia.
Numidia and Mauretania were originally Berber kingdoms to the west of Carthage in present-day Algeria and part of Tunisia . The people were made up of nomadic mountain pastoralists and settled farmers along the coast. The pastoralists herded sheep, goats, and sometimes cattle. The ruling class was strongly influenced by Greek and Phoenician culture and later by Roman culture. Outside of the towns and large estates, the people remained Berber in language and culture. The Romans formed an alliance with Numidia but later conquered it and made it a Roman province. Mauretania was also absorbed by the Romans. The Romans imposed heavy taxes on the wheat and olive oil of Numidia. When Rome fell, Berber chieftains retook the area.
The name Numidia was first applied by Polybius and other historians during the third century BC.
the term Berber appeared for the first time after the end of the Roman Empire, the relevance of its use for the previous period is not accepted by all historians of antiquity.
The best known of the ancient Berbers were the Numidian king Masinissa 238 B.C. - 148 B.C.
Ruler of the North African kingdom of Numidia. Originally an ally of Carthage, he switched sides to help Rome after being persuaded by Scipio Africanus the Elder (206). After winning the Battle of Zama (202), he was awarded a larger kingdom. Though displeased with the presence of Cato's army in Africa (149), he remained faithful to Rome and a client of the Scipios until his death. His father was Gala chief of the Massylians .
Carthage, a port city on the north coast of Africa in the area of present-day Tunisia and Algeria, was established in 814 b.c. by Phoenician settlers who eventually dominated the local North African farmers and nomads. Phoenician merchants along the Mediterranean coast, settled farmers of the watered plains, and the migrating shepherds of the steppe land bordering the Sahara Desert coexisted with the exchange of both trade and culture. The increasing economic and military power of the unified city-state of Carthage resulted in its domination of the fragmented tribes of the Numidians.
The earliest myths regarding the nomadic tribes we today call berbers come from the greeks. they claimed that when Herakles died in Spain and his army dispersed the Persians, Medians, and Indians crossed over to Africa. there they began conquering the indigenous tribes of gaetulians and Libyans. the Medians became the Maures, or Mauretanians in western Morocco and the Persians, or Indians depending on the versian, became the nomads, or Numidians.
The name 'Numidian' means nomad as the Numidians were a semi-nomadic people dwelling in modern Algeria, Tunisia, and parts of eastern Morocco.
The Earliest known ruler of the Numidians was a man named Ailymas, or Alyamus, who appears in the account by Diodorus Siculus of Agathocles' invasion of North Africa. though the text refers to all native North Africans as Libyans, Ailymas is described as coming from the area we identify as Numidia.
It is commonly hypothesized that Ailymas ruled the Numidian town of Thugga, modern Dougga, and was the ancestor of Zelalsen, who is the gradfather of the well known Massinissa.
The Massylian tribe began rising to dominance under Gala, son of Zelalsen, who followed his father's conquests capturing the later capital of Cirta and even attacking Carthaginian territory. By the second Punic war, however, Gala had allied with Carthage and sent his eldest son, Massinissa, to aid carthage in Spain.
Berbers moved south to Mauritania beginning in the 3rd century, followed by Arabs in the 8th century, subjugating and assimilating Mauritania's original inhabitants. From the 8th through the 15th century, black kingdoms of the western Sudan, such as Ghana, Mali, and Songhai, brought their political culture from the south.[2]
The divisive tendencies of the various groups within Mauritanian society have always worked against the development of Mauritanian unity. Both the Sanhadja Confederation, at its height from the 8th to the 10th century, and the Almoravid Empire, from the 11th to the 12th century, were weakened by internecine warfare, and both succumbed to further invasions from the Ghana Empire and the Almohad Empire, respectively.[2]
The one external influence that tended to unify the country was Islam. The Islamization of Mauritania was a gradual process that spanned more than 500 years. Beginning slowly through contacts with Berber and Arab merchants engaged in the important caravan trades and rapidly advancing through the Almoravid conquests, Islamization did not take firm hold until the arrival of Yemeni Arabs in the 12th and 13th centuries and was not complete until several centuries later. Gradual Islamization was accompanied by a process of Arabization as well, during which the Berber masters of Mauritania lost power and became vassals of their Arab conquerors
Umm - when you take entire passages off of someone elses writings you need to place QUOTES AROUND THE PASSAGES AND SHOULD RIGHTLY NAME YOUR SOURCES.
AND PLAGIARIZED by LYING _SS or SNAKE whatever her name is!lol!
Could have just posted the links above if you wanted us to read it. Stop wasting space! Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche: ALready had to warn Hammered about this.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I'd like to see someone argue that black beans then were "Muslim" or "mixed". LOL
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: ..Negrophobes seek to ignore the documentation of who the specific tribes contributing to the the Moorish poopulations. When they do admit a population was black they are happy to quickly interject "but they weren't Negroids'. lol!
Oh yes, the old Hamitic (i.e. black-skinned white) race. LOL
quote: Others like Lyin'ass just have a serious inferiority complex having lived among Europeans too long.
I personally think Lyin'ass IS a white person of European descent. It's not the first time we get white trolls pretending to be 'black' here. LOL
quote:From now on i will not be using words that veil the truth about who black people of Africa are. All the people of the Horn are as far as i am concerned descendents of Nilotic Negroes (Samburu are a good example) that got mixed with "Bushman" or "Capoids" and later aborbed some white i.e. Eurasian blood like African Americans did. There is nothing in genetics that tells us otherwise.
Here I must disagree with this outdated belief. The black people of the Horn as they are in the Guinea region of Western Sudan are diverse and simply are not a mixture of bushman peoples with Nilote and Eurasians.
True - but I'm really talking about the so called hamitic types in the Horn. And I would say they have very little Eurasiatic blood which is due to mainly late admixture.
You're right about Lyin_ass - he or she may very well be white. They originally had Sweden in their profile. That "Just call me Jari" guy had me fooled for the longest. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic