quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Dana I have seen other coins of Juba I who is more broad featured in appearance and the Juba II sculpture was reproduced in a work I have seen somewhere but forgot where, thats how i became familiar with both not just the internet sites,I rarely just cut and paste without having prior knowledge of what I am after,I donno but I think Juba II was featured in one of J.A Rogers books, in any case while I disagree with Mike that all non broad featured figures on coins and statues of the early Moors are fakes,I do believe that like the signet rings featuring broad featured Africans were hidden from view and narrow featured folks were presented as the norm. http://books.google.com/books?id=gB6DcMU94GUC&pg=PA427&lpg=PA427&dq=S+Gsell+carthaginian+negroids&source=bl&ots=VZPRBNp7_i&sig=R2FwIblazTRsT- Also a little dated but a lot of still useful info.
But the other point Brada is if Moor occupied the same territiory as the Romans,.if Moors looked Roman and Greek what did the Romans and Greeks look like? The average Eurowack doesn't use common sense. Where is the difference between these two groups one European and one black. We are told constantly by Greeks and Romans that mauri meant "Niger" and Mauri were "ethiopians" and Maures were "black as crows". Where are the Byzantines and Romans if the Moorish rulers and their peopel look Romans and Byzantines. Do you see how idiotic it is that we even respond to their posts as if they had some ounce of fact that needs to be taken into consideration.
Was Juba one of the " Ethiopian hybrids" that Claudian says Ethiopians and the Berber Nasamones made in North Africa through mixting with white or Syro-Roman concubines? I don't know but i do know that all of Berber tribes as a whole were called black while the same people non-Africans call Beja golden colored as late as the 15th century.
There is no question in my mind that the Berbers of the Siwa oasis, the modern Dra'a some of teh Guelia /Afrur Berbers of the Riff and the Tuareg and Masmuda of the Upper Atlas are among the Berbers retain the original "Ethiopian" and "Niger" color and appearance of the Maures of ancient Mauretania.
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posted
Come now Brada-Anansi, surely you must know of the Albinos propensity for "flights-of-fantasy" MK says its the mis-wiring. It will now be impossible to deal with Lioness for the next month, because she can say that she found it written somewhere that north Africans were White.
Think man, think: this is as a drug to them. We be real, we wos there!
It has now become clear to me that you need some help in choosing your reading material. Please feel free to PM me on prospective material. I will be happy to let you know what is truthful. As you can see, it's not just about you, it's about all who you may influence. Poor lioness, we almost had her saved, now this! Somebody get the Ritalin!
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quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: The numidians/Moors could look like this:
The king could look like this:
Or like this (props to Zarahan)
Sallust wrote that the Numidians were Gaetuli very slightly infused with Taurus-Zagros males. He also tells us that the Mauri were Libyans very slightly infused with Taurus-Zagros males. Sallust Iugurtha 17.7-18.12 But Sallust himself is doubtful that the above is true.
We must remember Manilius derives Mauri from the Greek colour term μαῦρος black.
Even Frank Snowden wrote that Maurus is "at times obviously the equivalent of Ethiopian." He shows that in the sense of skin colour by giving a Greek addage -- an Aithiopian black as soot -- where black is a variant of maurus. Everybody knows suit isn't light or tawny.
Isidore in Origenes 14.5.10 equates Latin nigurm with Greek μαῦρος
Martial 6.39.6 barbs nappy haired Maurus.
Juvenal 5.53-54 makes a simile with nigri and Mauri.
There's no escaping the fact that the vast majority of authentic Maurs even into the early Islamic era were blacks, a type of black indigenous to the North Africa between the Sahara and the Sea.
A thread for the image of "authentic" Moors must reflect that fact in its choices of imaginary art. A Numidian king should be as dark as his cavalrymen and yes we know misegenation set in with Juba but that was the last of the Numidian line of kingship which stretches back ~200 years earlier.
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posted
Those with the ability to comprehend what they read, please read this carefully. It serves as a very good lesson in the absurdity of White history. And, a very good lesson in how even the absurd, can be tactfully presented in such a way as to fool the ignorant.
From the Louvre
Juba II (King of Mauretania, 25 BC-AD 23) This character with his royal headband is Juba II, sovereign of the Roman-ruled kingdom of Mauretania. Juba II was a scholarly prince who had been brought up at Caesar's court and was steeped in classical culture; his interest in Greek civilization is perceptible in this portrait, which owes a great deal to the Hellenistic sculptural tradition.
An aging prince
This full face portrait with high forehead and long, sunken cheeks, is framed by a mass of short, rather wild curls, held in place by a headband. The arch of the eyebrows overshadows the inner corner of the downward slanting eyes. The nose is broad, the mouth full and sensual, and there is a deep cleft in the chin. Despite the damage it has incurred, the features of this tired face are recognizable as those of Juba II at the age of about sixty. When the head was discovered it was immediately identified as such; this suggestion was confirmed after comparison with effigies on coins and other portraits of the prince, whose strong features, wide-set eyes, and thick hair are clearly recognizable.
Juba II
Subsequent to the defeat and suicide of the Numidian king Juba I in 46 BC, his son was taken to Rome where he was raised by the sister of Octavian Augustus. The latter married him to Cleopatra Selene, daughter of Mark Anthony and Cleopatra, and granted him the regency of Mauretania (a territory comprising the western part of modern Algeria and Morocco). Juba II, who had been converted to classical culture by his Roman education, was a loyal vassal who did not betray the Roman cause. He settled in his capital Caesarea (modern Cherchell), whose very name was a homage to the master of Rome. More than anything he was an insatiably curious scholar and great art collector, who also wrote many historical and geographical treatises and organized scientific explorations to the Canary Islands and the sources of the Nile.
Hellenistic art
The classical culture of King Juba II is apparent in this portrait of the philhellenic king, which portrays him like a Hellenistic sovereign: beardless, short-haired, and wearing a royal headband. Hellenistic art also inspired the carefully modeled flesh and the idealization (which does not, however, overlook the subject's human qualities or ethnic group). Juba II apparently founded a very Hellenized artistic community in Caesarea, where excavations unearthed some impressive copies of Greek works (such as an Aphrodite, an Apollo, and a Demeter that are now conserved in Cherchell). Moreover, Juba II brought Greek artists from Egypt to his capital, thereby creating a school of sculpture that ensured the continuity of the Hellenistic sculptural tradition.
Juba IIs son - Ptolemy of Mauretania
Juba I
Juba I This face with its impressive head of hair is that of the Numidian king Juba I. The idealization of the features suggests the influence of Hellenistic royal portraits, indicating that this was a posthumous portrait made during the reign of the king's son Juba II (reputed for his Greco-Roman culture). Juba I appears to be deified in this portrait by a likening to Jupiter.
A striking countenance
This imperious face is that of a middle-aged man, whose most striking feature is his abundant hair, which forms a heavy mass of twisted curls, arranged in rows. He is wearing a headband, which was a sign of royalty. A splendid beard also frames his face, whose discreet signs of age contribute to the impression of authority that emanates from the figure.
King Juba I
When this head was discovered in 1895, it was immediately identified as a portrait of King Juba I. This suggestion was confirmed after comparison with coins, on which portraits of the king display the same thick hair (which had made a great an impression on Cicero). Juba I, king of Numidia (a North African kingdom corresponding to the eastern part of modern Algeria), went down in Roman history when he sided with Pompey's partisans in the conflict between the consul and Caesar. The latter's victory in Thapsus in 46 BC sounded the knell for Pompey's party in Africa; Juba I committed suicide, and his kingdom became a Roman province called Africa Nova. His son, the future Juba II, was taken to Rome where he was raised and educated.
A posthumous representation
The wrinkles on the sovereign's brow and the hollowed cheeks that accentuate his prominent cheekbones indicate his age, yet this portrait remains largely idealized. The noble features (those of a man in the prime of life) and headband around the hair come from the tradition of Hellenistic royal portraiture. This ideal character, strongly indebted to Greek art, suggests that the work was produced after the reign of Juba I. The portrait in the Louvre was probably a posthumous one, produced during the reign of Juba II, the sovereign whose Roman education left him steeped in Greco-Latin culture. He may therefore have honored his father by perhaps likening him to Jupiter.
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By Peter Morrison The main sources used here are : Livy, The History of Rome, Caesar The Civil War, Sallust - The Jugurthine War, Polybios Histories.
The People
It was believed in ancient times that Africa was originally populated by Gaetulians and Libyans, both were nomadic people. The demigod Hercules died in Spain and his polyglot eastern army was left to settle the land, with some migrating to Africa. Persians went to the West and inter married with the Gaetulians and became the Numidians. The Medes settled and were known as Mauri latter Moors. Sallust's version of African history must be considered with reservations. These stories more likely recall Aryan invasions from Spain.
The Numidians and Moors belonged to the race from which the Berbers are descended. The translated meaning of Numidian is Nomad and indeed the people were semi-nomadic until the reign of Masinissa of the Massyli tribe. He was initially on the side of Carthage, but went over to the Romans with decisive effect in 206 BCE. Given additional land at the expense of Carthage, the king retained the support of Rome for 50 years until his death in 148 BCE. Masinissa began to turn his people from rovers to peasant farmers and those who fled the destruction of Carthage and settled the land helped this process.
The kingdom was divided into three by Rome and remained so until an illegitimate prince named Jugurtha forcibly reunited the land in 118 BCE, but the Romans won it back by 105 BCE. Rome maintained client Kings and reduced the size of the country and things remained so until Juba I attempted to rebuild the state 49 - 46 BCE.. After his defeat, Numidia became part of the Roman Empire. Unlike most countries, Numidians were recruited into the army in their own attire and using their own weapon. The Numidians are shown thus on Trajan's column, which indicates the value Rome placed upon them as light cavalry.
Numida stretched for 700 miles along the African coast occupying about the position of modern day Algeria with the Western part of Tunisia. The coastal plains were fertile, the interior less so turning to rolling scrub and tree covered hills and as one goes further south the bleak rugged Atlas Mountains and the barren desert are encountered. Such land encouraged the development of using the horse for transportation.
They wore their hair in ringlets and were dark but not black skinned. The best known image of Numidians is from Trajans Column.
quote:
Hopefully all are as tired of the White mans nonsense, foolishness, and bullsh1t as I am.
This is what a Black persons hair looks like in so-called (by the White man) "ringlets".
posted
As a further demonstration of the absurdity of White People, their histories, and their "Supposed" institutions of "Enlightenment".
The Louvre, one of the White mans premier institutions of "Enlightenment" presets us with those ridiculous Busts above. And tells us that they are indigenous Africans.
Whereas, even a humble toymaker, http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com, was able to do enough research to create toys that more closely resemble Numidians
Brada-Anansi - Do you realize how spectacularly stupid, that, and White people and their histories in general are? .
Numidian Warriors with spears / javelin
25mm scale - North African warriors of the Ancient world who allied with Carthage against Rome in the Punic Wars.
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posted
Mike I have never said that the Moors were in general a white people, so Lioness could not get that from me, we don't even need the sculptures and coins to tell us that,physical anthropology by S Gsell and others told us that plus the earliest writings from Greeks and Rome informed us,however they like the later Moors had or was mixing with narrow featured peoples on both sides of the Med the ultimate origins of these people remains to be seen, but the fact is they were present,that is why I do not hold to the view that every sculpture or coins presenting narrow features is fraudulent just that for the longest time coins and sculptures representing those broad features were hidden from view not generally seen in publications that in my view is where the fraud lays lying by omission. And the UNISCO book is good if a little dated that's the one where Diop and Obenga opened a can o whoopass on the other authors.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
The Berbers were nomads and are comprised of different "races". Some moors were black, not all and this does not change the fact that Juba I and Juba II were not black. They could be considered Berbers. The Berbers predate Arab presence in North Africa. Some are light skinned like the people below. The Sea people for example were attested to by the Egyptians in 1220 BC. I'm not saying that the Numidians were Sea people. The point is that light skinned people have been in North Africa much earlier than the Dacian Wars 101- 102 and 105-106 AD - the relief of the Moorish cavary we keep seeing.- possibly much longer and certainly in BCE. Therefore Juba I and Juba II being white is perfectly reasonable. Juba I of 85 BC – 46 BC. Are we to believe that numerous coins of Juba I were made to change his physical features to look more white. You know that is ridiculous. Then why would they leave his hair looking like a black style? You are living in a fantasy world. But wait a minute, that's a black hairstyle? Look at the two blond children near the lower right, there is some curly hair for you, as well as another darker skinned child with curly black hair- so much for the curly hair theory. Furthermore which ancient black African people had big thick beards like that? And how about Juba II and other Numidian kings? -now go cherry picking in google, a dishonest methodology. Pick them at random and deal with the results - you don't have any evidence that what you want to be fake is fake. Is it possible that Juba I and II were of Eurasian ancestry and that their kingdom may have included indigenous blacks? Yes that is most likely. Stop corrupting history out of paranoia. Yes white people have told some lie about history. That doesn't mean you can now step in and just freestyle what you want to believe and expect it to have any credibility.
Berbers
O.k. so you don't like some of the lighter skin ones so what, the lighter skinned ones have been living in the region for at least 4000 years. Some argue that they are indigenous other that they have Eurasian origins. It doesn't matter they were there before the Kingdom of Maure. We are not even going back that far just to the Dacian wars 1st century AD. This was the war in the region of what is now called Romania.
posted
Lioness - Like all lying Whites, you depend on the stupidity and ignorance of the listener to impart your "flights-of-Albino-Fantasy". What you are in effect saying, is that the king was White, but his subjects were Black.
Only in the Albino mind, conditioned by White media, can such a ridiculous notion exist. No my little fantasizing Albino, in real life, Blacks don't accept that sort of thing. Even if forced on them, such an interloper is soon gone.
And it is an indication of the absurd fantasy world of the Albino-playing-make-believe, that an African king would so miscegenate his line with such inferior genes. That occurs only after the Black man has been made stupid by whatever means - See the current Moroccan line.
And no, my little lying Albino, Whites were NOT in Africa from 4000 years ago. The first Whites in Africa are reasonably well documented at 2,600 years ago.
The first Whites in Africa were the Dorian/Ionian Greeks, during the reign of Psamtik I circa 600 B.C.
The first Whites in Africa
There are no Egyptian sources which tell of the first Whites to enter Egypt, if there are any, they are being withheld by Whites. Our only source for the first Greek/Egyptian encounter is the Greek historian Herodotus in his book "The Persian Wars" Written 440 B.C. (He says that these things were told to him by the Egyptians - Herodotus is known to have been rather loose with the truth).
In Book 2 - EUTERPE, he writes: (2:152) Psammetichus (Psamtik I) sent to the city of Buto, where there is an oracle of Latona, the most veracious of all the oracles of the Egyptians, and having inquired concerning means of vengeance, received for answer that "Vengeance would come from the sea, when brazen men should appear." Great was his incredulity when this answer arrived, for never, he thought, would brazen men arrive to be his helpers. However, not long afterwards certain Carians (Carians were an original Anatolian people (Blacks), however by the time of Herodotus, their country, as well as much of Western Anatolia, had been overrun by White Greeks): and Ionian's (also Greeks who had migrated to Anatolia), who had left their country on a voyage of plunder, were carried by stress of weather to Egypt where they disembarked, all equipped in their brazen armour, and were seen by the natives, one of whom carried the tidings to Psammetichus, and, as he had never before seen men clad in brass, he reported that brazen men had come from the sea and were plundering the plain. Psammetichus, perceiving at once that the oracle was accomplished, made friendly advances to the strangers, and engaged them, by splendid promises, to enter into his service. He then, with their aid and that of the Egyptians who espoused his cause, attacked the eleven and vanquished them.Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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BTW - Everyone is so caught-up in the White mans Berber fantasy's, that this little bit of White supposition from above was ignored.
Obviously Sallust (86 BC – 35 BC), like all Whites who "Presume" to tell history, is totally full of sh1t. But even a fool has a reason for his foolishness. Can anyone venture a guess as to why Sallust would make such stupid statements?
It was believed in ancient times that Africa was originally populated by Gaetulians and Libyans, both were nomadic people. The demigod Hercules died in Spain and his polyglot eastern army was left to settle the land, with some migrating to Africa. Persians went to the West and inter married with the Gaetulians and became the Numidians. The Medes settled and were known as Mauri latter Moors. Sallust's version of African history must be considered with reservations. These stories more likely recall Aryan invasions from Spain.Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: BTW - Everyone is so caught-up in the White mans Berber fantasy's, that this little bit of White supposition from above was ignored.
Obviously Sallust (86 BC – 35 BC), like all Whites who "Presume" to tell history, is totally full of sh1t. But even a fool has a reason for his foolishness. Can anyone venture a guess as to why Sallust would make such stupid statements?
It was believed in ancient times that Africa was originally populated by Gaetulians and Libyans, both were nomadic people. The demigod Hercules died in Spain and his polyglot eastern army was left to settle the land, with some migrating to Africa. Persians went to the West and inter married with the Gaetulians and became the Numidians. The Medes settled and were known as Mauri latter Moors. Sallust's version of African history must be considered with reservations. These stories more likely recall Aryan invasions from Spain.
It appears that no one is prepared to hazard a guess.
Okay then, it's all a matter of the ignorance of these first White historians. They had no background in history, Whites weren't there when it was being made, and Whites only learned to keep their own history via the Greeks, circa 500 B.C.
So ignoramuses like Sallust, looked for similarities and then extrapolated from there - in the "PUREST" fashion of White historians: ignorance has never stopped them!
The fool based his history on HAIRSTYLES! In this case, he saw that Egyptians wore their hair short or bald, and those north wore their hair slicked back or in neatly twisted and clipped Dread locks.
Knowing nothing of Africans in the interior: The only Blacks he knew of, who wore their hair in so-called "Ringlets" were EASTERN BLACKS.
posted
Lioness - Of your many faults, I have never accused you of not being able to count - what is your point?
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: The Berbers were nomads and are comprised of different "races". Some moors were black, not all...
You keep missing the point however that Moor meansblack! Therefore, you claim that "some" Moors were black while others were not makes no sense. Since Moor means black one could only be accurately labeled a 'Moor' if one were black. This whole topic on the Moors has been discussed numerous times in this forum almost as much as the identity of the Egyptians.
You are correct however that 'Berbers' do come in a variety of looks and appearances and not all were black or Moorish as it were.
quote:Berbers
Interesting how almost all the light-skinned Berbers look like "mulatto" types. Not surprising since we know Berbers consist of predominantly indigenous African ancestry with some European admixture mostly in the maternal side with high frequencies of the latter in coastal areas.
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: The numidians/Moors could look like this:
Yes, I have seen many depictions of Numidians looking like the depiction above which still shows black skin.
As far as their features, they appear keen and look very much like Egyptian depictions of Libyans.
As well as modern day Moors like this man from MAURitania.
^ Again note the sharp features as well as beard. Perhaps Lyinass, Mike, and others choose to see such features on depictions of King Juba as white instead of what they likely were-- still African.
Posts: 26307 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: [qb] The Berbers were nomads and are comprised of different "races". Some moors were black, not all...
You keep missing the point however that Moor meansblack! Therefore, you claim that "some" Moors were black while others were not makes no sense. Since Moor means black one could only be accurately labeled a 'Moor' if one were black. This whole topic on the Moors has been discussed numerous times in this forum almost as much as the identity of the Egyptians.
Moor- Through nominalization, the root has taken on a variety of meanings. Moreno, from the Latin root, can mean "tanned" in Spain and Portugal, as well as in Brazil. In Cuba and other Spanish-speaking countries, it can mean "black person" or "mulatto".
Also, what people like the Greeks and Romans when they referred to a person as "black" is not the same as the contemporary definition- see Frank Snowden
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posted
^ And exactly what's your point? That a word's definition can change over time? We know that. Hell, it wasn't but a few decades ago that the word gay meant happy instead of homosexual as it does now. That still does not change the original definition nor its etymology. Moor comes from the Greek word maure which is a synonym for melas that is BLACK. That non-blacks who happen to move into the region of the original black inhabitants and usurped the name for themselves is the problem.
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posted
I saw Jeff down town an AA person might say to a friend ,but there are two Jeffs, the friend may answer which Jeff? lite skinned Jeff or dark skinned Jeff..Oh!! lite skinned Jeff. both Jeffs belonged to the same AA ethnic community,hood and perhaps related by blood both self described black men.
Moor=black Tawney Moor= lite skinned black White Moors= wiggers
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Obviously false, since we have classical sources describing Moorish populations as white skinned and fair haired.
Procopius, History of the wars, IV. xiii.26-29
And I have heard this man say that beyond the country which he ruled there was no [29-36] habitation of men, but desert land extending to a great distance, and that beyond that there are men, not black-skinned like the BlackaMoors, but very white in body and fair-haired. So much, then, for these things.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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^ Okay. And where in that citation does he call these whites Moors?? Nowhere that I see. Next.
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posted
This is a deliberate distortion of the text since black-a-moor is not in the original document. Here is the author in full context as presented in the People of old Northwestern Africa -- Greco-Latin accounts thread on theNileValley forum
quote:The Mauretanii live in stuffy huts both in winter and in summer and at every other time, never removing from them either because of snow or the heat of the sun or any other discomfort whatever due to nature. And they sleep on the ground, the prosperous among them, if it should so happen, spreading a fleece under themselves. Moreover, it is not customary among them to change their clothing with the seasons, but they wear a thick cloak and a rough shirt at all times. And they have neither bread nor wine nor any other good thing, but they take grain, either wheat or barley, and, without boiling it or grinding it to flour or barley-meal, they eat it in a manner not a whit different from that of animals. . . .A certain Mauretanii woman had managed somehow to crush a little grain, and making of it a very tiny cake, threw it into the hot ashes on the hearth. For thus it is the custom among the Mauretanii to bake their loaves. . . . ... . . . . since the time when the Mauretanii wrested Aurasium from the Vandals, not a single enemy had until now ever come there or so much as caused the barbarians to be afraid that they would come, but even the populous city of Tamougadis [Timgad], situated against the mountain on the east at the beginning of the plain, was emptied of its population by the Mauretanii and razed to the ground, in order that the enemy should not only not be able to camp there, but should not even have the city as an excuse for coming near the mountains. And the Mauretanii of that place held also the land to the west of Aurasium, a tract both extensive and fertile. And beyond these dwelt other nations of the Mauretanii, who were ruled by Ortaïas, who had come, as was stated above, as an ally of Solomon and the Romans. And I have heard this man say that beyond the country which he ruled there was no habitation of men, but desert land extending to a great distance, and that beyond that there are men, not black-skinned like the Mauretanii, but very white in body and fair-haired.
Procopius of Caesarea: History of the Wars, c. 550 CE Books III.xxv.3-9; IV.vi.10-14, vii.3, xi.16-20, xiii.26-29
It's quite clear the only colour Maur that Procopius knew of was black and so much so as to be used in distinction to a white population. This is in keeping with the Greek μαύρος (mauros) which to this day still means black and as Manilius wrote the country Mauretanii takes its name from the colour of its people.
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: ''White Moors= wiggers'' ====
Obviously false, since we have classical sources describing Moorish populations as white skinned and fair haired.
Procopius, History of the wars, IV. xiii.26-29
And I have heard this man say that beyond the country which he ruled there was no [29-36] habitation of men, but desert land extending to a great distance, and that beyond that there are men, not black-skinned like the BlackaMoors, but very white in body and fair-haired. So much, then, for these things.
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posted
^ Thank you Takruri for shedding light on the matter, or wiping off the dirt that the troll just spilled. Posts: 26307 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by A Simple Girl: This website says alot about the way the Moors were represented by the Europeans and by themselves during the Middle Ages.
Your source makes the mistake of confusing the Saracens (non-black) Muslims with Moors (blacks regardless of religion). But then again, what can you expect from a source that is not academic.
Posts: 26307 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Or like this (props to Zarahan)
Sallust wrote that the Numidians were Gaetuli very slightly infused with Taurus-Zagros males. He also tells us that the Mauri were Libyans very slightly infused with Taurus-Zagros males. Sallust Iugurtha 17.7-18.12 But Sallust himself is doubtful that the above is true.
We must remember Manilius derives Mauri from the Greek colour term μαῦρος black.
Even Frank Snowden wrote that Maurus is "at times obviously the equivalent of Ethiopian." He shows that in the sense of skin colour by giving a Greek addage -- an Aithiopian black as soot -- where black is a variant of maurus. Everybody knows suit isn't light or tawny.
Isidore in Origenes 14.5.10 equates Latin nigurm with Greek μαῦρος
Martial 6.39.6 barbs nappy haired Maurus.
Juvenal 5.53-54 makes a simile with nigri and Mauri.
There's no escaping the fact that the vast majority of authentic Maurs even into the early Islamic era were blacks, a type of black indigenous to the North Africa between the Sahara and the Sea.
A thread for the image of "authentic" Moors must reflect that fact in its choices of imaginary art. A Numidian king should be as dark as his cavalrymen and yes we know misegenation set in with Juba but that was the last of the Numidian line of kingship which stretches back ~200 years earlier.
Color has a little sense in North africa. I know some relatively blond Berbers, who could look very brown after some sessions under sun (bank). Many of the Rifians are depicted with very brown skin during the frensh-spanish colonization. those Rifians living in Morocco and those living in europe look in many case very different. This because of the sun. So, color is not indicating in this case.
Furthermore, it is wrong to say that Moor was an equivalent for ethiopian. Since, the moors are libyans and the libyans were not described as ethiopians.
The meaning of the word "Moor" is highly disputed, some claim it is berber, others say it is gree, some say it is phoeician. Even if it means "dark", it would then mean "western" (were the suns undergoes), and became dark. The word Moor is a common name for those Berbers who were not conquered by Rome.
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posted
Mazigh your talking belief based on your personal feelings. I'm talking primary documents based on objective academic study.
You can choose to deny them because you don't like the academic documented facts on the word Maur but they remain just that, the facts, not your unsupported fancies.
Manilius derives Mauri from the Greek colour term μαῦρος black.
Even Frank Snowden wrote that Maurus is "at times obviously the equivalent of Ethiopian." He shows that in the sense of skin colour by giving a Greek addage -- an Aithiopian black as soot -- where black is a variant of maurus. Everybody knows soot isn't light or tawny.
Isidore in Origenes 14.5.10 equates Latin nigrum with Greek μαῦρος.
Martial 6.39.6 barbs nappy haired Maurii.
Juvenal 5.53-54 makes a simile with nigri and Mauri.
There's no escaping the fact that the vast majority of authentic Maurs even into the early Islamic era were blacks, a type of black indigenous to the North Africa between the Sahara and the Sea.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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'' type of black indigenous to the North Africa'' ===
Blacks are not indigenous to North Africa.
Note the following ancient descriptions of indigenous Libyans:
Hesiod (700BC) distinguished between the Black Ethiopians (‘‘black skins’’) and the lighter skinned Libyans (Catalogues of Women, Fragment 40a, Oxyrhynchus Papyri 1358).
The Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax (4th century BC) describes fair haired Libyans :
‘‘And there live around it all the Gyzantes Libyes, a community, and a city beyond (the lake) towards the sun’s setting; for all these Gyzantes Libyes are said to be all fair-haired and very beautiful.’’
The ancient Libyan-Greek poet Callimachus in the 3rd century BC described yellow haired Libyan women (Hymn II to Apollo, 85) :
‘‘Greatly, indeed, did Phoibos rejoice as the belted warriors of Enyo danced with the yellow-haired Libyan women, when the appointed season of the Karneian feast came round’’
Pausanias (1. 14. 6) recorded a legend that the Libyans had blue eyed deities:
‘‘But when I saw that the statue of Athena had blue eyes I found out that the legend about them is Libyan. For the Libyans have a saying that the Goddess is the daughter of Poseidon and Lake Tritonis, and for this reason has blue eyes like Poseidon.’’
The Libyan giant Antaios is described as fair skinned and red haired by the ancient Greeks, and is depicted on artwork as a redhead:
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: '' type of black indigenous to the North Africa'' ===
Blacks are not indigenous to North Africa.
Note the following ancient descriptions of indigenous Libyans:
Hesiod (700BC) distinguished between the Black Ethiopians (‘‘black skins’’) and the lighter skinned Libyans (Catalogues of Women, Fragment 40a, Oxyrhynchus Papyri 1358).
The Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax (4th century BC) describes fair haired Libyans :
‘‘And there live around it all the Gyzantes Libyes, a community, and a city beyond (the lake) towards the sun’s setting; for all these Gyzantes Libyes are said to be all fair-haired and very beautiful.’’
The ancient Libyan-Greek poet Callimachus in the 3rd century BC described yellow haired Libyan women (Hymn II to Apollo, 85) :
‘‘Greatly, indeed, did Phoibos rejoice as the belted warriors of Enyo danced with the yellow-haired Libyan women, when the appointed season of the Karneian feast came round’’
Pausanias (1. 14. 6) recorded a legend that the Libyans had blue eyed deities:
‘‘But when I saw that the statue of Athena had blue eyes I found out that the legend about them is Libyan. For the Libyans have a saying that the Goddess is the daughter of Poseidon and Lake Tritonis, and for this reason has blue eyes like Poseidon.’’
The Libyan giant Antaios is described as fair skinned and red haired by the ancient Greeks, and is depicted on artwork as a redhead:
Once again I have to Thank you cassiterides. Your inane Albino posts, serve as an opportunity for me to debunk ever more Albino myth and bullsh1t.
Wiki Hesiod was a Greek oral poet generally thought by scholars to have been active between 750 and 650 B.C. Demetrius Chalcondyles issued the first printed edition (editio princeps) of Works and Days, possibly at Milan, probably in 1493 A.D.
cassiterides, there was certainly no real person Hesiod: The first actual White writings were by Aesculus 525-456 B.C. These were tragedies including the Orestia Trilogy. * Agamemnon * Choephoroe * Eumenides This White stupidness asks us to believe that Hesiods ORAL material was MEMORIZED for 2,215 years and then published. Whites in fantasy mode!
The Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax is an ancient Greek periplus that ranks among the minor Greek geographers, dating from 4th or 3rd century BC. The name of Scylax applied to the text is thought to be a pseudepigraphical appeal to authority: Herodotus mentions a Scylax of Caryanda, a Greek navigator who explored the coast of the Indian Ocean on behalf of the Persians. Pseudo-Scylax takes a clockwise circumnavigation of the Mediterranean and Black Sea, starting in Iberia and ending in West Africa, beyond the Pillars of Hercules. The African section is clearly sourced from the Periplus of Hanno the Navigator. "The Periplus of Scylax" was first published in Augsburg in 1600 by Hoeschel along with other minor Greek geographers.
Here again, White bullsh1t MEMORIZED and then published? Whites in fantasy mode!
Callimachus (310/305–240 BC) was a native of the Greek colony of Cyrene, Libya. He was a noted poet, critic and scholar of the Library of Alexandria and enjoyed the patronage of ancient Egyptian Greek Pharaohs Ptolemy II Philadelphus and Ptolemy III Euergetes. Although he was never made chief librarian, he was responsible for producing the catalogue of all the volumes contained in the Library.
Need I say more?
Pausanias was a Greek traveler and geographer of the 2nd century AD, who lived in the times of Hadrian, Antoninus Pius and Marcus Aurelius.
Need I say more?
Antaeus in Greek mythology was a giant, the son of Poseidon and Gaia, whose wife was Tinjis. Greeks of the sixth century BCE, who had established colonies along the coast, located him in the interior desert of Libya. He would challenge all passers-by to wrestling matches, kill them, and collect their skulls, so that he might one day build out of them a temple to his father Poseidon.
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: The numidians/Moors could look like this:
The king could look like this:
Or like this (props to Zarahan)
Sallust wrote that the Numidians were Gaetuli very slightly infused with Taurus-Zagros males. He also tells us that the Mauri were Libyans very slightly infused with Taurus-Zagros males. Sallust Iugurtha 17.7-18.12 But Sallust himself is doubtful that the above is true.
We must remember Manilius derives Mauri from the Greek colour term μαῦρος black.
Even Frank Snowden wrote that Maurus is "at times obviously the equivalent of Ethiopian." He shows that in the sense of skin colour by giving a Greek addage -- an Aithiopian black as soot -- where black is a variant of maurus. Everybody knows suit isn't light or tawny.
Isidore in Origenes 14.5.10 equates Latin nigurm with Greek μαῦρος
Martial 6.39.6 barbs nappy haired Maurus.
Juvenal 5.53-54 makes a simile with nigri and Mauri.
There's no escaping the fact that the vast majority of authentic Maurs even into the early Islamic era were blacks, a type of black indigenous to the North Africa between the Sahara and the Sea.
A thread for the image of "authentic" Moors must reflect that fact in its choices of imaginary art. A Numidian king should be as dark as his cavalrymen and yes we know misegenation set in with Juba but that was the last of the Numidian line of kingship which stretches back ~200 years earlier.
Kudos to your post and thank you for the references al Takruri but when you speak of the "Taurus-Zagros" I take it you are talking about the Medean or "new Medes" references. If so I have always taken them to be connected to the "Midianite" references of Josephus and others as the Midianites and Medes were often taken to be one and the same people by early Greeks and later writers and for probably very good reasons (which I will not go into right now.)
According to Palmer, one of the names for the Tuareg even today is Mitmiti and Matmata.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche: [qb]
It was well known that the area of Cyrenaica in Libya was the home of Greeks, Scythians as well as various black Libyan peoples. The Berber Nasamones as described by Claudian were a good example of the fairly indigenous black Libyans nomads. Garamantes were of course another, although I think it was Ptolemy II who said they were "more likely Ethiopian" than Libyan.
THe Libyan Adyrmakidae occupied the area spread from Nubia to the present country of Libya as did the Makhuritae.
Juvenal describes Gaitulians generically in describing one as "a Moor", "so black you'd rather not see him at midnight". While Josephus makes them the same as the Avalioi (Hevila) children of Kush trading between Zeila in Somalia and the Yemen.
Thus one would have to look carefully at what you translated about Apuleius. Furthermore Gaituli were one of the people who made up the Numidians according to one ancient writer.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: '' type of black indigenous to the North Africa'' ===
Blacks are not indigenous to North Africa.
Note the following ancient descriptions of indigenous Libyans:
Hesiod (700BC) distinguished between the Black Ethiopians (‘‘black skins’’) and the lighter skinned Libyans (Catalogues of Women, Fragment 40a, Oxyrhynchus Papyri 1358).
The Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax (4th century BC) describes fair haired Libyans :
‘‘And there live around it all the Gyzantes Libyes, a community, and a city beyond (the lake) towards the sun’s setting; for all these Gyzantes Libyes are said to be all fair-haired and very beautiful.’’
The ancient Libyan-Greek poet Callimachus in the 3rd century BC described yellow haired Libyan women (Hymn II to Apollo, 85) :
‘‘Greatly, indeed, did Phoibos rejoice as the belted warriors of Enyo danced with the yellow-haired Libyan women, when the appointed season of the Karneian feast came round’’
Pausanias (1. 14. 6) recorded a legend that the Libyans had blue eyed deities:
‘‘But when I saw that the statue of Athena had blue eyes I found out that the legend about them is Libyan. For the Libyans have a saying that the Goddess is the daughter of Poseidon and Lake Tritonis, and for this reason has blue eyes like Poseidon.’’
The Libyan giant Antaios is described as fair skinned and red haired by the ancient Greeks, and is depicted on artwork as a redhead:
All the names of the pre Hellenic Gods you mentioned were derived from "the Ethiopians". Poseidon the trident bearer whose name is also found in the Solymian Pisidians is related to the semitic Beishat, Beish or Bisha meaning fish.
The Solymi themselves were also Ethiopians or pre-Hellenic African "semitic" peoples who lived in the area of the Aegean and Lycia whose remnants are likely the Salim or Sulaym of early Arabia.
The people of Lake Tritonis worhipped Poseidon, Triton and Athena. Modern Ethiopian women still where th goat skinned Aegis of Pallas Athena. SHe is obviously the Ta Nit or Neith of Carthage and Libya predating Greeks and Scythians.
The Tuareg in part originated in the area of Tritonis in Libya and undoubtedly brought their trident symbol with them. The name is related to Trita, Thraetona or Feridun, Rhodones in Indic/Iranian myth as well as the names the God/Goddess Ruda of ancient Arabia.
In the times of the gladiator , Ethiopians gladiators are said to have carried the trident as well as nets.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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"If in this case Martial is not using the word Maurus loosely, the phrase Maurus retorto crine Maurus may indicate the descendant of a Negro-White cross, i.e. one with skin color of a Maurus and the hair of an Aethiopia"
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Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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"If in this case Martial is not using the word Maurus loosely, the phrase Maurus retorto crine Maurus may indicate the descendant of a Negro-White cross, i.e. one with skin color of a Maurus and the hair of an Aethiopia"
____________________________
12.
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Do you mean like how Juvenal, Platus, St. Jerome, Claudian, Diodorus Siculus, St. Isidore of Seville, Procopius, Corippus using it with words like Nigri or Niger and Ethiopian.
Martial used the phrase woolly hair "like a Moor". What does it matter if the person he was talking about wasn't a Moor.
No one above metioned the Maurusioi as a Negro- white cross. Keep hope alive though! lol!
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: ''White Moors= wiggers'' ====
Obviously false, since we have classical sources describing Moorish populations as white skinned and fair haired.
Procopius, History of the wars, IV. xiii.26-29
And I have heard this man say that beyond the country which he ruled there was no [29-36] habitation of men, but desert land extending to a great distance, and that beyond that there are men, not black-skinned like the BlackaMoors, but very white in body and fair-haired. So much, then, for these things.
Now nothing you said can be trusted, as far as I am concerned.
Why did you put the above lie on this forum stating Procopius used the British phrase "BlackaMoor". That is sickening and I would say despicable if it wasn't so funny. lol!
The translations of Procopius say "...and that beyond that there are men, not BLACK-SKINNED LIKE THE MOORS, but very white in body and fair-haired. So much then for these things. " Loeb and other translations
In the nearby paragraphs Procopius mentions some of the Moorish rulers of Aurasium (the Aures of North Eastern Algeria) Ortaius, Massonas, Mastinas and Maphanius. While on other pages he mentions other Moorish rulers.
"the Moors wrested Aurasium from the Vandals".
You Eurowacks can write, misinterpret and mistanslate anything you want. That isn't going to change facts like the one that Moors/Mauri, Maurusioi are never ever called white anything by Greeks, Romans, and other early Europeans. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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"If in this case Martial is not using the word Maurus loosely, the phrase Maurus retorto crine Maurus may indicate the descendant of a Negro-White cross, i.e. one with skin color of a Maurus and the hair of an Aethiopia"
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12.
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Do you mean like how Juvenal, Platus, St. Jerome, Claudian, Diodorus Siculus, St. Isidore of Seville, Procopius, Corippus using it with words like Nigri or Niger and Ethiopian.
Martial used the phrase woolly hair "like a Moor". What does it matter if the person he was talking about wasn't a Moor.
No one above metioned the Maurusioi as a Negro- white cross. Keep hope alive though! lol!
I'm not sure what you mean "no one above mentioned" I quoted from Snowden so he mentioned it.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Moors were multiracial - even though race is a myth - like AEs. Rome and Greece were not multiracial civilizations though
posted
Can we please have a Eurowacko with some skills? come on this is waay too easy,it's just not fun anymore after the fall of Evil-Euro at the hands of the old vets all we get is peons and trolls.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Moors were multiracial - even though race is a myth - like AEs. Rome and Greece were not multiracial civilizations though
rolleyes at you making up fake quotes attributed to me I have previously stated Rome and Greece were multiracial but not many of the art postings by Ironedlion
Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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"If in this case Martial is not using the word Maurus loosely, the phrase Maurus retorto crine Maurus may indicate the descendant of a Negro-White cross, i.e. one with skin color of a Maurus and the hair of an Aethiopia"
____________________________
12.
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Do you mean like how Juvenal, Platus, St. Jerome, Claudian, Diodorus Siculus, St. Isidore of Seville, Procopius, Corippus using it with words like Nigri or Niger and Ethiopian.
Martial used the phrase woolly hair "like a Moor". What does it matter if the person he was talking about wasn't a Moor.
No one above metioned the Maurusioi as a Negro- white cross. Keep hope alive though! lol!
I'm not sure what you mean "no one above mentioned" I quoted from Snowden so he mentioned it.
-Frank Snowden "Black Studies; The Negro In Ancient Greece"
p 282
__________________________________________
read the section "Maurus and Indus"
beginning on page 273
I am not impressed with the use by Eurowacks of speculations of Snowden - as if there were not many ancient Europeans who like Platus considered the Mauri a synonym for Nigri or "black" and "Ethiopians".
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Nonnus also uses the phrase Indi for the Blemyes of Nubia while others use it for Abyssinia. Iranians used it for black Africans as much as for the people of India who resembled them in complexion whether long haired or not. I think all Snowden says proves that Ethiopians, Indi, Mauros, were all "blacks" regardless of whether they were "Negroid" or not.
I don't recall any Romans ever saying "Negro" or "Nigri" meant "Negroid" - or "man with broad flat nose" if that's what "Negroid" is suppposed to mean. It meant simply the black colored man so Snowden is being influenced by his times - just as "Moro" and "Nigri" came to mean black or near black among the Christian Mozarabs in Spain (according to F.J. Simonet who wrote a "comprehensive" account of the Mozarabs) and just as the meaning of "Mavri" has remained unchanged among the Greeks.
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^ Of course there was no racial concept of "negroid" back in those times. Such was only formulated in Modern times with other racialized concepts. What IS clear is that ancient peoples did use the label of 'black' for various populations with very dark i.e. black skins, and this included peoples in North Africa, the Middle East, and India.
Posts: 26307 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Dana I was refering to S Gsell on p428 the book is multi authored.
Brada I was just saying we have to be careful in putting pictures of coins from Roman ruled Africa with the word Juba on them and expecting they looked like the Moor Juba. Procopius names the Moors as black and their rulers as Ortaius, Antalas, Iaudas leader of the Aures, Cabaon of Tripolitania, Cutzinas, and many others related to Juba who was ruler of Numidia.
Juba was head of the Numidians whose remnant - only according to Leo Africanus 16th c. were the Aulamidden Tuareg of Niger. If Juba II was half African he should have at least looked it in his supposed depictions. Tacfarinas was another Numidan king his name meaning son of Afran or Ifren which is the well known Tuareg clan name.
You can probably google around the web and find numbers of these rulers of "blacks" i.e. "Mauri" and you will find some coin or sculpture some Eurowacko has put up on his web-site claiming to be one of these ancient individuals.
There will never be a time when you will find them posting a representation of a woolly haired black Maurusi just like you would never have found a single representation of an original Kabyle until I had put it up.
Ironically it is only the brown and black Kabyli who colonialists stated were still living in their Numidian Magalia, while the "few pale clans among them" DID NOT. These living Kabyle Africans " live in huts made of branches of trees and covered with clay which resemble the Magalia of the old Numidians...Their complexion is brown and sometimes nearly black."
Furthermore Procopius says the Numidians and Mauretanians "used the Phoenician language which is undoubtedly the TiFinagh (meaning belonging to the Phoenicians) and early Berber.
As for the term Leuco-Ethiopian we have to remember Scythians lived in Ethiopia and thus that people probably have nothing to do with ancient Saharans. The term Melano-Gaitule is the equivalent of the term Mauri Gaetuli or Mauri Mazazeces. The word Mauri was a synonym for Niger for the Romans remember Platus says so while others use it for Ethiopian. "Melano' like "Mauri" are terms which both meant Niger or Nigri and had nothing to do with implying there were "halfbred" Gaitules. Even Juvenal speaks of a Gaetulian as "a Mauri" and "so black you'd rather not see him at midnight.
We know that there were however people that the Mauri i.e. the Nasamones - mixed with under Gildo of Mauretania creating "hybrids" before Procopius time (according to Claudian).
However, Mauri remained the dictionary definition of Niger or black man and vice versa according to St. Isidore of Seville, Spain other Latins and later peoples.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: The Berbers were nomads and are comprised of different "races"...
But the ancient Berber tribes were not "of different races".
Your photo IMG says mathildasanthropolobyblog
Please don't post pseudoscience from anthropology students of questionable mental status in response to questions of importance to African history here on Egyptsearch forum.
Thank you for your consideration and attention to this matter. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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