The southern half of Egypt, know as Upper Egypt due to its higher altitude, is called "al-Sa'id" in Arabic (pronounced iSa-yeed)". The Saidi people are famous for this semi-acrobatic stick dance called "Tahteeb" for men and "Raqs Assaya" for women. It is essentially a form of martial art where the manipulation of the stick and the demeanor of movement replicated a battle scene. The main motions with the stick include spinning, twirling, rowing, flipping and striking. Often two dancers will enact a friendly battle with synchronized sparing and coordinated strikes. But the essence of the Saidi dance is in its demeanor. The body moves heavily and confidently with a subtle pulse. Grace is more valued than aggression. This dance is done solo or in groups where the sticks are operated in unison, and men and/or women play together.
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^ Ausar and I discussed about the stick dance once. We agree that this too is an African tradition and similar dances can be seen farther south among other African peoples.
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Today, Coptic is the native language of only about 300 Copts around the world. It is also the liturgical language of the native Egyptian Churches (the Coptic Orthodox Church and the Coptic Catholic Church). It is taught worldwide in many prestigious institutions, but its teaching within Egypt remains restricted.
Living in a country of Muslim majority, the size of the population of Copts is a continuously disputed matter, frequently for reasons of religious jealousy and animosity. Some official estimates state that Christians represent from 5% to 10% or less of a population of over 83 million Egyptians while other independent and Christian sources estimate much higher numbers, up to 23% of the population.
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posted
^^The would be considered Arabs first naturally in a country dominated by Islam and Arabized elites where they are harassed and persecuted. What is the State Dept doing exactly to help these people as part of its purported "concern for human rights" and religious freedom? Or is that only when it is not a favored dictator it is jawboning?
I don;t know why the US subsidizes Egypt to the tune of about 1 billion a year (maybe more). For what? Keep pyramid tourist routes open? To keep them as a buffer for the Israelis? To participate in the so-called "peace process?"
If so,why? Where is the "peace process" these days? If to create an Israeli buffer, why? Let the Israelis pay for their own damn buffer state. Military bases? Heck there is more than enough space in Israel for the US to maintain a vast number of bases- we give them enough aid as it is- its the least they can do So why does the US need Egypt at all? Can anyone present a coherent, detailed argument as to why subsidies should continue going to Egypt, especially when its gubment seems to be doing little to enforce safety for Copts, or a level, non-discriminatory playing field?
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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There are copts in sudan but not all are egyptian i think,but there seems to be some that are not arab first if the speak coptic first but these are only few left both in egypt and maybe sudan,so their are two copt groups it seems,copts and arabized copts.
There are a copts in sudan too,but i guess most there are arabized.
The arabized copts are arabs first i guess,and are the majority of the copts,but are arabized and called arabs,and coptic language speakers in the census are most likely in the Unclassified / Other Individuals area of the census.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: "arabized" is cultural rather than racial
Yeah, i know,but i always thought until now they were non-arabs or not in that group,or most of them anyway.
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: ^^The would be considered Arabs first naturally in a country dominated by Islam and Arabized elites where they are harassed and persecuted. What is the State Dept doing exactly to help these people as part of its purported "concern for human rights" and religious freedom? Or is that only when it is not a favored dictator it is jawboning?
I don;t know why the US subsidizes Egypt to the tune of about 1 billion a year (maybe more). For what? Keep pyramid tourist routes open? To keep them as a buffer for the Israelis? To participate in the so-called "peace process?"
If so,why? Where is the "peace process" these days? If to create an Israeli buffer, why? Let the Israelis pay for their own damn buffer state. Military bases? Heck there is more than enough space in Israel for the US to maintain a vast number of bases- we give them enough aid as it is- its the least they can do So why does the US need Egypt at all? Can anyone present a coherent, detailed argument as to why subsidies should continue going to Egypt, especially when its gubment seems to be doing little to enforce safety for Copts, or a level, non-discriminatory playing field?
^Watch all parts for a context around the answer to your questions. I would answer it myself but I figured the source could do a better job. If you want to get right to the gist of it you can start with pt 7:
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Actually kendo most of the Copts in the Sudan are Egyptian because most migrated from parts of Middle and Upper Egypt and settled around Khartoumn. They came to the Sudan as merchants and traders and many came to escape Egypt when Nasser came into power.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: [QB] ^^The would be considered Arabs first naturally in a country dominated by Islam and Arabized elites where they are harassed and persecuted. What is
the first actual use of the word Arab in history is to be found in an Assyrian inscription of 853 B.C., commemorating the defeat of a mutinous chieftain, called Gindibu the Aribi during the reign of king Shalmaneser III (858-824 B.C.).
Muhammad was born 570 AD, 1,428 years later
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Arabization (Arabic: تعريب Taʿrīb) describes a growing cultural influence on a non-Arab area that gradually changes into one that speaks Arabic and/or incorporates Arab culture. It was most prominently achieved during the 7th century Arabian Muslim conquests which spread the Arabic language, culture, andhaving been carried out by Arabian Muslims as opposed to Arabian Christians or Arabian Jewsthe religion of Islam to the lands they conquered. The result: some elements of Arabian origin combined in various forms and degrees with elements taken from conquered civilizations and ultimately denominated "Arab", as opposed to "Arabian".
__________________________________________ some groups in sudan that are considered arabized are not considered arabs at all,so there exceptions. it's because their basic culture and Political outlook is native.
They only use the arab language in the arab culture to survive and trade to a point it seems because they are live close or nearby the arabized groups. They use arabic has the main language but many have thier african language has a second language,SOME don't but thier basic culture is and outlook is african.
Example- some hill nubians and some darfur nubians are arabized i guess but not arabs AND DO NOT CALL themselves arabs.
In the census in those countries Where they live, they are still called nubian.
In egypt like i mention in another too,arabized nubians are largely arab in culture but called themselves nubian,so they are not arabs and in egyptian census are called nubians.
So arabization varies TO VERY LIGHT to heavy,you could be called a arab or still be called what you still are ethnically if your culture is still native and your outlook is still native.
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posted
another point,there seems to be mixed messages.
maybe the joshua project got it census count wrong.
maybe they are not considered arab first.
quote- Copts in modern Egypt In 1952, Nasser led some army officers in a coup d'ιtat against King Farouk, which overthrew the Kingdom of Egypt and established a republic. Nasser's mainstream policy was pan-Arab nationalism and socialism. The Copts were severely affected by Nasser's nationalization policies because, although they represented about 10-20% of the population, they were so economically prosperous as to have held more than 50% of the country's wealth. In addition, Nasser's pan-Arab policies undermined the Copts' strong attachment to and sense of identity about their Egyptian pre-Arab, and certainly non-Arab, identity; permits to construct churches were delayed, Christian religious courts were closed, and the regime confiscated land and Church properties from Copts. As a result, many Copts left their country for Australia, North America or Europe.
____________________________________________ If they do not consider themselves arab,and other arabs do not consider them arabs then the joshua project may have got thier classification wrong,and i may have to write them.
If they are considered or consider themselves arabs first now,then so be it.
__________________________________________________- The Arab-Muslim Invasion of Egypt The Copts participated extensively in the slave trade of black Nubian or Abyssinian eunuchs. Coptic priests sliced the penis and testicles off underage boys around the age of 8 who were children in a castration operation, the eunuch boys were then sold in the Ottoman Empire. The majoriy of Ottoman eunuchs endured castration at the hands of the Copts at Abou Gerbe monastery on Mount Ghebel Eter. The black boys were captured from Abyssinia and other areas in Sudan like Darfur and Kordofan then brought into Sudan and Egypt. During the operation, the Coptic clergyman chained the boys to tables and after slicing their sexual organs off, stuck a piece of bamboo into the genital area, then submerged them in neck high sand to burn. The recovery rate was ten percent. The resulting eunuchs fetched large profits in contrast to eunuchs from other areas.
Copts have a long history as a minority within Islamic Egypt. While an integral part of Egyptian society, Copts remained culturally and religiously distinct from their surrounding.
In the 20th century, the question of Coptic identity became related to the question of Egyptian identity, divided between the Pan-Arabism advocated by Nasser and Egyptian nativism or Pharaonism.
Copts and Arab identity While some non-Coptic authors claim that Copts in Egypt have an Arab identity, whereas in the West Copts tend to identify as "non-Arab",other non-Coptic scholars disagree, stating that "Copts are not Arabs" and that they predate the Arabs' arrival to Egypt
On the other hand, almost all statements issued by Copts decry Arab nationalism. With their strong attachment to their own country, Copts have been always suspicious of Arabism, Arab socialism and pan-Arabism. They viewed Arabs as invaders and foreigners, and glorified the struggles of their ancestors against the Arab invaders between the 7th and the 9th centuries AD. Indubitably, the struggle against these foreign ideologies centered around the Coptic language:
The Coptic language provides a Copt with an identity that spells out an impressive commentary upon the character of such person. It exemplifies in him an unyielding spirit that was tried and came out victorious. A spirit that had to endure endless attempts by those that ruled Egypt for the past 2300 years to replace such language with that of their own. If such was achieved then they can subject the Copts to cultural and religious slavery that would forever made them subservient to such foreign rulers. It was attempted first by the Greeks, through their Hellenizing approach. Then it was continued along the same principles by the successive Arab and Muslim dynasties that ruled Egypt since the 7th century AD. The significance of such character can also inspire the Coptic youth to fight off the many harmful pressures, whether in spirit or in body, that are facing them in this turbulent Society of ours.
In addition, Copts resisted Arab nationalism by stressing their pre-Arab identity. They saw themselves as the direct descendants of the Ancient Egyptians, and their language as a bridge linking the Copts to their Ancient Egyptian roots and their civilization that span over 6000 years.
The strongest statement regarding Coptic identity came in 2008 from a prominent Coptic bishop, namely Bishop Thomas of Cusae and Meir, who gave the following speech at the Hudson Institute:
What makes a person change the identity of his own nation and shift the focus of his identity from Egypt to become "the Arabs", even though ethnically he/she is the same person? The Copts have been always focused on Egypt; its our identity, its our nation, its our land, its our language, its our culture. But when some of the Egyptians converted to Islam, their focus changed away from looking to their own [language and culture]. They started to look to the Arabians, and Arabia became their main focus. So the focus here has changed and they would no longer be called "Copts". If you come to a Coptic person and tell him that hes an Arab, thats offensive. We are not Arabs, we are Egyptians. I am very happy to be an Egyptian and I would not accept being "Arab" because ethnically I am not. I speak Arabic. Politically now, I am part of a country that was Arabized and politically I belong to an Arabic country but that doesnt make a person Arab. If a person believes he is an Arab, his main focus is the pan-Arab area, and he no longer belongs to the Egyptian nation. You are either in or out; either you belong or you dont. And this is a big dilemma that is happening for the Copts who kept their Christianity, or rather their identity as Egyptians with their own culture, and who are trying to keep the language, the music, and the calendar of the Copts. That means that the culture of Ancient Egypt is still carried on. A process of Arabization has been ongoing in this country for many centuries, since the 7th century. At the same time Islamization as well is a dilemma that started and is still carrying a lot of the problems. [...] So when we hear the word "Copt", that doesnt only mean "Christian", it means "Egyptian".
What makes an Egyptian become a Copt, and an Egyptian not become a Copt? Simply, this is the shift that has happened in Egypt since the Arab invasion of Egypt. Today when you look at a Copt, you dont see only a Christian, but you see an Egyptian who is trying to keep his identity versus another imported identity that is working on him. And that means if these two processes are still actively working till now, it has never stopped because Egypt has not yet in its own mind become completely Islamized or Arabized. That means the process [of Arabization] is still ongoing... You cant study the Coptic language, the native language of the land, in any public school in Egypt. Thats not allowed, although we can teach in our public schools any other language. You have a lot of schools that teach English, French, German, Spanish and Greek, but never Coptic. Why? Because that clashes with the process of Arabization. And this is a very dangerous attitude. The cultural heritage of Egypt has been taken away. [Thus], the Copts suddenly felt that they have a responsibility to carry on their own culture and continue it and to fight for it. Yes, we are still fighting very much for our strong heritage of Egypt because we love our heritage and we want to keep it. And that means that if you try to teach your language in a public school, that would not be the right way to do it, so that means that the Church will carry the responsibility to take in this heritage and work with it, keeping it in a very good nursery till the time would come when openness and good thinking would occur, when this country will come back to its own roots and lift it up. But, until then we have to keep it in a nursery, in a church. We dont want to keep it in, we dont want to isolate it, but we cannot throw it away so nobody will take care of it. Thats why we keep it. This is not withdrawal. We could say that this is keeping the heritage in a nursery till the time comes when it will be open and serve the entire Egyptian community. So the word Copt here is not only religious, but it has cultural import.
Bishop Thomas' words gained widespread approval within the Coptic community. One other Coptic bishop, namely Bishop Picenti of Helwan and Massarah commented on the issue saying:
If one reconsiders Bishop Thomas' words, they can discover that he was not wrong. He said that Copts of Egypt are not of Arab origin but rather of Pharaonic origin, and this is correct because it is the truth and history. We are Coptic Egyptians. I am a Christian Copt and you are a Muslim Copt. We are Pharaonic Copts.
Other prominent Coptic figures who supported Bishop Thomas' statement included the Coptic writer Magdy Khalil who wrote in el-Dostoor newspaper:
We [the Copts] are Egyptians, and we are not Arabs, with all due respect to the Arabs. We may live in some sort of cultural Arabism and we may speak Arabic, but we are not Arabs. This is a historical fact, whether some people like it or not. Copts both within Egypt and in the diaspora are insulted and accused because they insist on holding strongly to and taking pride in their national Egyptian identity, rather than having another identity that crosses the borders [of Egypt]. The Copts' focus their identity on Egypt's geographical borders, which are deeply rooted in history.
Thus, Copts today believe that Egypt and Egyptians are simply not Arab, emphasizing indigenous Egyptian heritage and culture. Their perception of their own identity and heritage can be summarized in Niloofar Haeri's words:
Egyptians had to be made, often forcefully, into "Arabs" because they did not historically identify themselves as such. Egypt was self-consciously a nation not only before pan-Arabism but also before becoming a colony of the British Empire. Its territorial continuity since ancient times, its unique history as exemplified in its pharaonic past and later on its Coptic language and culture, had already made Egypt into a nation for centuries. Egyptians saw themselves, their history, culture and language as specifically Egyptian and not "Arab."
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^ Of course they want to protect Israel which is technically the freest and most liberal country in the Middle East (despite the protests of some Jewphobes).
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JERUSALEM In Israel's ultra-Orthodox Jewish community, where the rule of law sometimes takes a back seat to the rule of God, zealots are on a campaign to stamp out behavior they consider unchaste. They hurl stones at women for such "sins" as wearing a red blouse and attack stores selling devices that can access the Internet..."There are eyes and ears all over the place, very similar to what you hear about in countries like Iran," ...Many ultra-Orthodox Jews are dismayed by the violence, but the enforcers often enjoy quiet approval from rabbis eager to protect their own reputations as guardians of the faith, community members say. And while some welcome anything that keeps secular culture out of their cloistered world, others feel terrorized, knowing that the mere perception of impropriety could ruin their lives.
For 15 years, a legal battle has raged. Although their worship is still considered illegal, women still pray out loud at the western wall on the first day of every month on the Jewish calendar.
JERUSALEM The women come from all over Israel every month to pray at the Western Wall, one of Judaism's holiest sites.
As their voices rise and fall in prayer, onlookers gawk and occasionally harass the praying women. Israeli police have arrested several women on charges of disturbing the peace; Orthodox men and women have spit at, cursed and attacked others.
quote:^ Of course they want to protect Israel which is technically the freest and most liberal country in the Middle East (despite the protests of some Jewphobes).
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^ LMAO @ you guys' stupidity as well as your fear of Jews.
Arreubinsoni, is that suppose to be a picture of your boyfriend or something? LOL
@ Anguishedass, you keep on talking about an Israeli "apartheid" and pray tell what apartheid is this?? Also as far as your examples of religious intolerance and zealotry from the Jews, they pale and are nothing in comparison to the Muslims. Where in your article does it say the Jews are killing Christians and stoning women the way Muslims in Islamic countries do??
If Israel is so bad then why are so many refugees from not only the Middle East but Africa are flocking there??
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Where in your article does it say the Jews are killing Christians and stoning women
They kill them every day since 1948. Have you never heard of Palestinian refugee problem? Deir Yassin etc? Ignorant apologist.
quote:zealotry from the Jews, they pale and are nothing in comparison to the Muslims.
Tell this to those who suffer at their hands: Jewish women, Christians, Palestinians Christian and Muslims.
quote:If Israel is so bad then why are so many refugees from not only the Middle East but Africa are flocking there??
They go to become drunks, junkies and prostitutes like the Falahsas. You are probably one of the low lifes who lower them there with promise of "better life". Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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Your dumb ass doesn't know it, so I'll tell you. The idiotic pictures you post only makes those reading your posts believe that you're an unintelligent child and not to take anything you write with anything more than a grain of salt.
As a matter of fact many people will simply skip over your posts when they see them.
I just thought I'd give your dumb ass some advice. Take it or leave it loon.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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LOL @ anguishedofbeingJewfrightened! Even if Jewish fundamentalism exists, (which again I don't deny as there is fundamentalism within many religions) you fail to see that such is nothing more than a reaction and an outgrowth of the much larger and more major issue of Islamic fundamentalism! As I recall Jews as well as Christians were victims of Muslims long before 1948, when they were living as Dimi under the Caliphate and Jews in particular who were victims of the Farhud genocide of 1941 Iraq and post Farhud genocides in other parts of the Middle East until 1946 when almost as many Jews died in that region as in Europe's Holocaust!
So your excuse of what little Jewish fundamentalism and chauvinism exists is as pathetic as racist whites claiming that "blacks are racist too". LOL
Anyway, this thread is about People Groups of Egypt and Saidi in particular. Not about Jews (though one should as how Jews as a group fair in Egypt ) or some imaginary Zionist supremacy. But no doubt your Jew-scared-ass will continue your rants. So be it. Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Typical response. LOL! Jewish fundamentalism is in no way a response to Islamic chauvinism. Talmud predates Islam. You would probably argue anti-black (and goyim in general) sentiments in the Talmud were response to black hostility too. LOL Also, the twentieth century ME hostility to Jews were reaction to early Zionist encroachment i.e. white imperialism. Muslims and Jews lived relatively peacefully before in the region. The "holocaust", as already has been shown, is a myth. No six million, no homicidal gas chambers.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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^ Of course Judaism precedes Islam, but what's your point?? The only fundamentalist religion causing the vast majority of problems in the Middle East as well as the world at large is Islam NOT Judaism.
But of course this doesn't matter to you who is so frightened of those awful scary Jews beyond rationality. LOLPosts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Are u serious Islam causes all the world problems Im sorry i dont agree with that.
Only reason why there is problems in the middle east is because of a place socalled Israel that just popped up out of NOOOOOOOO WHEREEEEEEEEEE i would be pissed off too and bring havoc to all those living in israel no matter if they are Muslim,Jews,or christian. Everything was nice until 1946.
Posts: 410 | From: Al-Ard | Registered: Jun 2009
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Put the blame on the people who deserve the blame. The world elite are the ones who carved and divided the lands. The world elite are the ones who provoke the people to fight among their differences. Only a weak minded person or one whom still requires maturity will not see past this facade. SMH..
Posts: 671 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by multisphinx: Put the blame on the people who deserve the blame. The world elite are the ones who carved and divided the lands. The world elite are the ones who provoke the people to fight among their differences. Only a weak minded person or one whom still requires maturity will not see past this facade. SMH..
Yes! I agree. Either keep people ignorant, poor, or fighting with each other and we can control them. It's very difficult to keep a people ignorant and have a useful society, so if they keep the masses poor and fighting and they have control, until the people ban together like the Egyptians did. Then the controllers will topple... They know this, and that is why the Internet is so powerful, and that is why the fear free speech. Posts: 770 | From: www.cafepress.com/tahrir_square | Registered: Jul 2010
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Egyptians didnt come together and topple anyone. Mubarek is already old and reigned for so long everything comes to an end.
The internet is not powerful its just people act so weak. Egyptians did nothing the army is still intact and running ****.
The only way to get change is by starting all over and getting rid of all that was before
Posts: 410 | From: Al-Ard | Registered: Jun 2009
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) or some imaginary Zionist supremacy. But no doubt your Jew-scared-ass will continue your rants. So be it. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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