quote:Jablonski, now chairman of the anthropology department at the California Academy of Sciences, begins by assuming that our earliest ancestors had fair skin just like chimpanzees, our closest biological relatives...
Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] You and others (like many racist)need to keep up. You keep going back to that archaic Penn study.
you addressed this to AGÜEYBANÁ. This implies you think the vitamin D hypothesis is racist. If that's what you think explain why
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: In other words. . . these groups, Eskimos etc, will lighten, in time, even if they ate fish for breakfast, lunch and dinner. LOL! according to opposing views to Jablonski/Chaplin.
In Jablsonki's view they would retain the pigment levels that they possess if were to keep to traditional diet high in Vitamin D, in turn if changed, suffer vitamin D deficiency.
On the other hand, according to your train of thought that it was simply the relaxation that human skin was already white in its ancestral state blah blah blah, then Eskimos would be just as pale as Europeans, or other East Asians (whom they share recent common ancestry with).
Which they don't hence why we know something else is here at play, not simply the relaxation, play ignorant all you want.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Not sure WHEN Europeans depigmented but populations to take about 3-5000yrs to depigment. See the Central Americans and South African Bantus timeline. Remember northern Europe (low UV – with the palest people) did not have people till about 5000bc.
Humans have been in northern to southern Europe beginning with the Upper Paleolithic some 40kya, I don't know where you get your info from. But as noted they didn't become pale until tens of millenia later, and if they weren't under intense cold stress then they wouldn't have been gradually adapting cold body plans by the late upper paleolithic which they were see below...
quote: Body proportions in Late Pleistocene Europe and modern human origins. T W Holliday
Results reveal a clear tendency for the EUP sample to cluster with recent Africans, while LUP and MES samples cluster with recent Europeans. These results refute the hypothesis of local continuity in Europe, and are consistent with an interpretation of elevated gene flow (and population dispersal?) from Africa, followed by subsequent climatic adaptation to colder conditions.
^^So we know they were undergoing lower UV and cold stress by their limb proportions, but why no pale skin until tens of millenia later after the paleolithic xyy?
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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Just can’t resist .. .those pictures huh? LOL!!! QUOTE: “When I look at various Northern Indians there seem to be a lot of inconsistencies of skin pigmention”
I am not sure WHO are in those picture. . .get it. This is more meaningful. THIS is a better representation of what to expect of the phenotype of native Americans throught-out the Americas. Don’t put up arbitrary picture and tell me these are native Americans.
According to the chart those in the North and South are lighter than those to the central. Just as in Euro-Africa . . .and Asia. Infact it applies through-out the globe. That should tell you something. .
quote:
[/QB][/QUOTE]
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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xyyman this chart proves nothing. The proof is when you look at photographs old and new to see if the theory checks out against actual people. The people are the proof. Many North American Indians were dark, this is obvious.
Any competant person wishing to varify this would start looking at old photographs of American Indians. I had a thread in AE about this. Do your own research, see if your light skinned North American Indians theory pans out, The proof is in the pudding
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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@ Lioness I am not saying Vit D theory is racist. My point is racialist tend NOT to keep up with new scientific studies . They cite outdated material. They hold on to outdated belief. Good example is C-Ass and his love for Coon.
But come to think of it the vit D theory may be racist. Since they keep beating that drum that AA are deficient in Vit D. Those that live in the Northern Hemisphere that is . We know that is BS.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
While we're on the subject of Vitamin D and skin pigmentation...
Some people argue that since Egypt is not within the latitudinal tropics, the Egyptians would have lost enough melanin to be non-Black. Putting aside the limb-proportion research suggesting that the Egyptians were perfectly adapted for a tropical environment anyway, it occurred to me that if Vitamin D synthesis was the real selective force against darker skin in high latitudes, then we must consider that most Egyptians them ate fish from the Nile on a daily basis:
quote:Fish, mostly dried, were part of most Egyptians' daily diet, despite the fact, that they were considered unclean by a few of the better-off Egyptians.
If Egyptians were eating so much fish, I would think they would have obtained enough Vitamin D in their diet to retain dark skin.
posted
Will you people give it a rest. This VitD nonsense..
Looking at the chart above, yes, indegenous Lower Egyptian may be a tard lighter than Upper Egyptian. But most of Egyptians should be very dark. Infact most indegenous Arabs, Yemenies etc are very dark.
Which lends credence to Dana's and Mike's view that the indegenous Arabs, Persians etc were most likely black. There is also genetics evidence that "recent" SSA occupied Arabia and Persia.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Makova and a few other researchers concluded through genetic and statistical analysis that humans depigmented NOT due to Vit D deficiency. There are many research papers out there that shows this. She poined out that Rana and some of the EARLIER work by Kittles had sampling flaws. As usual. The earlier work sampled Bantus from west Africa. When samples are taken from Southern Bantus an entirely different picture emerges.
Severeal things were concluded from these studies. I will paraphrase.
1. By including other primates in her studies she concluded that depigmented skin is not only ancestral but the "natural" state of humans. Pigmeneted skin is a "forced" state. ie when the constraint(UV) is removed, human populations will drift back to a lighter skin.
2. Depigmentation can take place through several processes. All involve the MC1r gene acting in conjunction(opposing) with one or more genes eg. OCA, ASIP, SLCA45, MTAP etc.
3. No food, Vit D deficiency etc is needed for humans to depigment. That is why the Global UV distribution correlates perfectly with the skin distribution map above.
4. There are indegenous light brown Africans. No admixture needed. That does not mean admixture did not occur in the past. But looking at the chart above it is obvious that of the 200,000yrs of humans existence 195,000 humans and Africans were black.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Correction: Of the 200,000yrs of human existence 195, 000yrs, humans and African were Black. It is only within the last 5000yrs returning depigmented Africans/(AMH) re-entered Africa. LOL!
To further clarify. Although depigmentation is ancestral/natural it is due to blackness we became “human”. It is due to Blackness/melanin that we evolved into AMH. Because as MK pointed out melanin not only protects from harmful UV rays( without it we would of died out as a species) but there may be a dozen or so other benefits of melanin. Such as so many psychological and genetic diseases suffered by depigmented people. As you can see the Melanin Theory has some good points. But I don’t concur with the Albino Theory thing. The genetic evidence(both Haplo-groups and MC1r pathway) do not support this.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: No food, Vit D deficiency etc is needed for humans to depigment. That is why the Global UV distribution correlates perfectly with the skin distribution map above.
Right back to square one where you keep running away from.
If it's solely due to relaxation of UV constraint and has nothing to do with the need to synthesize vitamin D then how come Eskimos are darker than Europeans despite inhabiting a lower UV environments?
And how come it took humans in Europe after reaching some 40kya (give or take), tens of millenia afterwards to depigment?
You don't realize how little sense you make.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: There are indegenous light brown Africans. No admixture needed. That does not mean admixture did not occur in the past. But looking at the chart above it is obvious that of the 200,000yrs of humans existence 195,000 humans and Africans were black.
Why would all humans be black until 5kya if humans reached above 50 degrees latitude atleast 30,000 years beforehand? Surely the low UV in Europe should have turned them pale a long time before, but why didn't it?
Stop running.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
Some people argue that since Egypt is not within the latitudinal tropics, the Egyptians would have lost enough melanin to be non-Black.
^^Its a bogus argument for 3 reasons:
(1) Tropical Africans are not static entities and can and did move out of tropical zones into sub-tropical ones at will over the span of history. Hence the very distinctive limb proportions in temperate Egypt show that it was populated by groups from tropical areas.
(2) The tropic zone itself contains numerous varying micro-climes allowing more than enough scope for phenotypic variation based on local climates.
3) A part of Egypt itself (almost 10-20% depending on the map you use), falls within the tropical zone, so its peoples have "the tropics" right there and then in place, WITHIN Egypt
If Egyptians were eating so much fish, I would think they would have obtained enough Vitamin D in their diet to retain dark skin.
^^ who knows, but based on the 3 items above, the fish would make no difference. If the tropicals could just walk over from the Sahara or Sudan.. or just chill out in the tropical zone - itself WITHIN Egypt- , fish consumption would not matter.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: [QB] Some people argue that since Egypt is not within the latitudinal tropics, the Egyptians would have lost enough melanin to be non-Black.
^^Its a bogus argument for 3 reasons:
(1) Tropical Africans are not static entities and can and did move out of tropical zones into sub-tropical ones at will over the span of history. Hence the very distinctive limb proportions in temperate Egypt show that it was populated by groups from tropical areas.
^^ the crural index of many of the ancient Egyptians remains found average around 83.6-83.8%. That's sub tropical. Very similar to the San, 83.75 Tropical limb proportions are around 85%
You never here the term "sub tropical limb proportions" that's because people often generalize about Africa as being tropical when compared to Europe.
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
^ That's because Africans are by and large tropical, nitwit! By the way, why is this silly off-topic thread that has nothing to do with ancient Egypt in this section of the forum to begin with??
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
How long does it take to de-pigment ? Good question. I haven’t come across any research investigating specifically that issue. I have read about 1 ½ dozen papers on the issue.
The Penn paper that KIK and other keep citing suggest a time about 6-12ky for “selective sweep” to occur?. Again this is another flaw with the study. The change in diet(vit D deficiency) occurred AFTER the Neolithic revolution ie about 6 thousand BC.. Therefore a comfortable conclusion is 2-6000y for de-pigmentation.
The Makova studies on South African Bantus and Khoi-San inferred that the Khoi-San has been in the area(low UV) > 30ky and therefore well adjusted in skin tone. The new Bantus are already showing signs of de-pigmenting compared to the Central African Bantus. .These Bantus have been in South Africa about 2ky.
When we go to the Americas. The Native Americans entered about 10-12kya., from the north. Whether they entered light is dark is another issue. But currently they skin tone correlates perfectly to the level of UV radiation. So depending on demic diffusion ie migration rate and skin adaption I will calculate adjustment to UV took 3-6Ky.
In another study, Harding et al(?), on AA. There were signs that AA are maybe de-pigmenting via the ASIP loci and not SLCA45. In other words although there maybe admixture with Europeans(SLCA45) even within mono-ethnic relationship skin lightening may be occurring(ASIP).
“Nature finds a way”. . . . Jurassic Park
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
IF Jablonski’s hypothesis is true then selective sweep took place LESS than 4kya(ie AFTER the Vit D problems developed LOL!!). Norton and Kittles chuckled at that. If Jablonski theory is true then ALL humans(in the North) were dark like tropical Africans and only turned light when they changed their diet. LOL. ie less than 4kya. Which means all aboriginal groups that survives by hunting and eating fish should be as dark as tropical Africans. Ie remain unchanged. AND we know that is NOT the case!!!!
That is why removal of constraint makes more sense.
“The defendant rest your honor” . . . LOL!!
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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The Penn paper that KIK and other keep citing suggest a time about 6-12ky for “selective sweep” to occur?. Again this is another flaw with the study.
No, it doesn't say 6-12ky for the selective sweep to occur, it states 6-12kya is when the sweep occurred. Again this is another flaw in your reading, this is why you continue to make a fool out of yourself.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: IF Jablonski’s hypothesis is true then selective sweep took place LESS than 4kya(ie AFTER the Vit D problems developed LOL!!). Norton and Kittles chuckled at that.
Don't know wth you're talking about but Jablosnki doesn't make any hypotheses about when selective sweep occurred. She instead puts out the argument very well that humans are vitally dependent on Vitamin D and the sun is a natural source so lighter skin was a way to get more from the source under lower UV environments since lighterskin allows quicker synthesis.
Norton is the one who says the sweep occurred 6-12kya get your **** together, dumbo.
Meanwhile back in reality;
"Norton, who worked on the Cheng study as a graduate student decided to find out when that mutation swept through Europeans. Working as a postdoc with geneticist Michael Hammer, at the university of Arizona she sequenced 9300 base pairs of DNA in the SLC24A5 gene in 41 Europeans, Africans, East Asians and American Indians. Using variations in the gene that did not cause paling she calculated the background mutation rate of SLC24A5 and thereby determined that 18,000 years had passed before the light-skin allele was fixed in Europeans. But the error margins were large, so she also analyzed variation in the DNA flanking the gene. She found that Europeans with the allele had a striking lack of diversity in the flanking DNA--a sign of a very recent genetic change, because not enough time has passed for new mutations to arise. The data suggest a selective sweep occurred 5300 to 6000 years ago, but given the imprecision of the method the real date can be as far back as 12,000 years ago, "Norton Said
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Which means all aboriginal groups that survives by hunting and eating fish should be as dark as tropical Africans. Ie remain unchanged. AND we know that is NOT the case!!!!
Err wrong, Eskimos are hunter and gatherers and they are darker than Europeans but not even close to equitorial Africans.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: That is why removal of constraint makes more sense.
Meanwhile it took tens of millenia for humans in Europe to become pale, yea sure it's just removal of constraint and nothing else. I didn't know Europe was much hotter back in those days thanks for reminding us. Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
Agreed, reading and understanding may not be your strong suite. LOL!
I will explain it to you like you are a six year old.
1. You haven’t read enough to have this discussion with me. 2. Reading one or two papers doesn’t cut it. 3. As I said, you may be as thick as the lunatic. Point is NON-Agriculturialist should be UNCHANGED. Damn man!!! That is those in the north. They should be as dark as their African ancestors. ALL OF THEM not just the Eskimos. 4. The Skin pigmentation map should also correlate with the spread of agriculture and it does not. It correlates with the UV distribution map only. 5. I can go on and on 6. Chose another subject you are more competent in. 7. bye
If the stimulus to become light(in the north,. . . and south) was a switch in diet then ALL aboriginal groups (non-agriculturialist) would be unnchanged that is as dark as their tropical African forefathers.
Oa la inversa, los Khoi-San debe ser oscuro, como todos los africanos tropicales. Usted sabe que nunca se desarrolló la agricultura.
En pocas palabras - vit D / Dieta / Alimentos nada que ver con la pigmentación de la piel
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
AGÜEYBANÁ what would explain North Europeans who live in coastal areas not being dark if they do eat a lot of fish?
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Point is NON-Agriculturialist should be UNCHANGED.
No, if it was just due to the need of synthesis of Vitamin D then everyone who obtained adequate amounts would be dark, if it was just due to relaxation of UV constraint then even Eskimos would be as pale as Euroepans.
But it's both factors as told to your imbecilic ass. Both the fact that it's lower UV so not enough to keep the skin as dark as in Africa along with the need to obtain adequate amounts of vitamin D as lightskin absorbs and synthesizes quicker.
In living populations we can see a clear example from the Eskimos who despite inhabiting a lower UV environment than Europe are darker in complexion than Europeans. Ad Nauseum, damn boy you're slow.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: AGÜEYBANÁ what would explain North Europeans who live in coastal areas not being dark if they do eat a lot of fish?
The selective sweep of the alleles across Europe.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: AGÜEYBANÁ what would explain North Europeans who live in coastal areas not being dark if they do eat a lot of fish?
The selective sweep of the alleles across Europe.
what determines when and how a selective sweep will occur, comparing Eskimos and Coastal N. Europeans?
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: AGÜEYBANÁ what would explain North Europeans who live in coastal areas not being dark if they do eat a lot of fish?
The selective sweep of the alleles across Europe.
wouldn't this sweep have to have occured before North Europeans reached coastal areas to settle in those areas?
Also, where is the origin point in Eskimo ancestry where they acquired darker skin?
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: AGÜEYBANÁ what would explain North Europeans who live in coastal areas not being dark if they do eat a lot of fish?
The selective sweep of the alleles across Europe.
wouldn't this sweep have to have occured before North Europeans reached coastal areas to settle in those areas?
Why? An allele doesn't care where you live if you have it you have it.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Also, where is the origin point in Eskimo ancestry where they acquired darker skin?
Who said they acquired darker skin? They've retained darker skin.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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Across the web assorted "biodiversity" proponents, wage a 'racial war' using hair studies of ancient Egyptians to prove a "Caucasian Egypt". But in fact the hair of Africans is highly variable, debunking their simplistic claims.
The hair of Africans is highly variable, ranging from tight curls of South African Bantu, to the loose curls and straight hair of peoples of East and NE Africa, all indigenously evolved over millennia as part of Africa’s high genetic diversity. This diversity undermines and ultimately dismisses simplistic "racial" claims based on hair.
Inconsistencies of the skewed "true negro" model and definitions of African hair
Dubious assertions, double standards and outmoded racial hair claims: Czech anthropologist Strouhal's 1971 study touched on hair, and advanced the most extreme racial definitions, claiming Nubians to be white Europids overrun by later waves of Negroes, and that few Negroes appeared in Egypt until the New Kingdom. Indeed, Strouhal went so far as to argue that 'Negroes' failed to survive long in Egypt, because they were ill-adapted to its arid climate! Tell that to the Saharans, Sudanese and Nubians! Such dubious claims have been thoroughly debunked by modern scholarship, however they continue in various guises by those who attempt to use "hair" to assign race 'percents' and categories to the ancients. Attempts to define racial categories based on the ancient hair rely heavily on extreme definitions, with "Negroids" typically being defined as narrowly as possible. Everything not meeting the extreme "type" is then classified as something else, such as "Caucasian".
Kieta (1990, Studies of Crania from Northern Africa) notes that while many scholars in the field have used an extreme "true negro" definition for African peoples, few have attempted to apply the same model in reverse and define a "true white." Such racial double standards are typical of much scholarship on the ancient Nile Valley peoples. A consistent approach for example would define the straight hair in Strouhal's hair sample as an exclusive Caucasian marker (10 out of 49 or approximately 20%) and make the rest (wavy and curled) hybrid or negro, at >80%. Assorted writers who support the Aryan race percent model however, are careful to avoid such consistency and typically only run the comparison one way.
QUOTE: "Strouhal (1971) microscopically examined some hair which had been preserved on a Badarian skull. The analysis was interpreted as suggesting a stereotypical tropical African-European hybrid (mulatto). However this hair is grossly no different from that of Fulani, some Kanuri, or Somali and does not require a gene flow explanation any more than curly hair in Greece necessarily does. Extremely "wooly" hair is not the only kind native to tropical Africa.." (S. O. Y. Keita. (1993). "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54)
Disturbing attempts to use hair to prove race theories: Fletcher (2002) in Egyptian Hair and Wigs, gives an example of what she calls "disturbing attempts to use hair to prove assumptions of race and gender" involving 1800s European researcher F. Petrie, who sometimes sought to use excavation reports to prove his theories of Aegean settlers flowing into Egypt. Such disturbing attempts continue today in the use of hair for race category or percentage claims involving the ancient peoples, such as the "racial" analysis seen on several Internet blogs and websites, some thinly disguised fronts for neo-nazi groups or sympathizers.
Hair study applied a stereotyped "true negro" model and used late period samples of Egypt, after the coming of Greeks, Hyskos, etc as "representative" excluding the previous 2500 years of ancient civilization. A study of the hair of Egyptian mummies by Czech anthropologists Titlbachova and Titllbach (1977) (reported in Strouhal 1977) using only late period samples found a wide range of hair in mummies. Of the 14 samples, only 4 were from the south of Egypt, and none of the 14 samples were earlier than the 18th Dynasty. Essentially the previous 2,000 years + of Egyptain civilization and peopling are not represented. Only the narrowest definition is used to identify 'true negro' types'. All other intermediate types were deemed 'non-negroid.' If a similar procedure is used in reverse and designates only straight hair as a marker of a European, then only 4 out of 14 or 29% of the samples can be deemed "Caucasoid." Below is a breakdown of the Czech data:
Sample# 5- 18th-21st dynasties- Deir el medina- curly Sample# 8- 21st-25th dynasties- hair looks straight Sample# 11- Late to Greek Period- hair partly wavy Sample# 18- Late period Egypt- hair fine diameter Sample# 19- Greek period- wavy hair Sample# 29- 18-21st Dynasties- Deir El Medina- hair shape unascertainable - south Sample# 31- 18-21st dynasties- Deir El Median- wavy to curly - south Sample# 33- 21st-25th dynasties- appears straight Sample# 34- 21st-25th dynasties- shape difficult to determine Sample# 35- 21st-25th dynasties- wavy shape Sample# 40- 21-25th Dynasties- hair curly, Sample# 44- 21-25th Dynasties- appears straight Sample# 45- 21-25th Dynasties- appears wavy Sample# 46- Kharga Oasis- 4th-5th centuries AD
Using modern technology, the same Aryan Race models are undercut with the data actually showing that Egyptians group closer to Africans than vaunted white Nordics.
"Nordic hair measurements"
Neo-Nazis and sympathizers tout the work of German researcher Pruner-Bey in the 1800s which derived racial indexes of hair including Negroes, Egyptians and Germans. Germanic hair is closer to that of the Egyptians they assert. But is it as they claim?
(Data of Bruner-Bey 1864- 'On human hair as a race character') - Negroid index: 57.40 - Egyptian index: 69.94 - White Germans: 66.33 Neo-Nazi conclusion: White German Nordics are 'closer' to Egyptians
Modern data using electron microscopes- Conti-Fuhrman & Massa (1972). Massa and Masali (1980)
Compare to Pruner Bey's 1864 data: - Negroid index: 57.40 - Egyptian index: 60.02 (modern electron microscope data) White Germans: 66.33 ______________________________________________________________________________ Conclusion using modern microscope data: Negroes much ‘closer’ to Egyptians than Nordics _____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Using hair for race identification as older research does can be shaky, but even when used, it undercuts ‘Aryan” clams as shown above.
Fletcher 2002 decries “"disturbing attempts to use hair to prove assumptions of race and gender..” Other credible scientists note:
"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories. Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as 1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically indistinguishable". --Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2
Environmental factors can influence hair color, and the Egyptians routinely placed hair from different sources in mummy wrappings, making claims of "Nordic-haired" or "white" Egyptians dubious.
Mummification practices and dyeing of hair. Hair studies of mummies note that color is often influenced by environmental factors at burial sites. Brothwell and Spearman (1963) point out that reddish-brown ancient color hair is usually the result of partial oxidation of the melanin pigment. Other causes of hair color "blonding" involve bleaching, caused by the alkaline in the mummification process. Color also varies due to the Egyptian practice of dyeing hair with henna. Other samples show individuals lightening the hair using vegetable colorants. Thus variations in hair color among mummies do not necessarily suggest the presence of blond or red-haired Europeans or Near Easterners flitting about Egypt before being mummified, but the influence of environmental factors.
Egyptian practice of putting locks of hair in mummy wrappings. Racial analysis is also made problematic by the Egyptian practice of burying hair, in many "votive or funerary deposits buried separately from the body, a practice found from Predynastic to Roman times despite its frequent omission from excavation reports." (Fletcher 2002) In examining hair samples Fletcher (2004) notes that care is needed to determine what is natural scalp hair, versus hair from a wig, versus hair extensions to natural locks. Tracking the exact source of hair is also critical since the Egyptians were known to have placed locks of hair from different sources among mummy wrappings. (The Search for Nefertiti, By Joann Fletcher, HarperCollins, 2004, p. 93-94, 96)
Egyptians shaved much of their natural hair off and used wigs extensively as covering, obtaining much of the hair for wigs through trade. Discoveries" of "Aryan" or 'Nordic" hair are thus hardly 'proof' of incoming Caucasoids, but may be simply hair purchased from some source and made into a wig. This is much less dramatic than the exciting picture of inflowing 'Aryan' hordes.
The ancient Egyptians shaved off much of their own natural hair as a matter of personal hygiene and custom, and wore wigs in public. According to the Encyclopedia of body adornment (Margo DeMello, 2007, Greenwood Publishing Group, p. 101), "Boys and girls until puberty wore their hair shaved except for a side locl left on the side of their head. Many adults- both men and women- also shaved their hair as a way of coping with heat and lice. However, adults did not go about bald, and instead wore wigs in public and in private.. Wigs were initially worn by the elites, but later worn by women of all classes.."
The widespread use of wigs in ancient Egypt thus complicates and contradicts attempts at 'racial' analysis. Fletcher (2002) shows that many Egyptian wigs have been found with what is defined as straighter 'cynotrichous' hair. This however is hardly a marker of massive European or Near Eastern presence or admixture. Fletcher notes that the Egyptians often eschewed their own personal hair, shaving carefully and using wigs widely. The hair for these wigs was often obtained through trade. Indeed, "hair itself being a valuable commodity ranked alongside gold and incense in account lists from the town of Kahun." Image gallery | Articles | Google
Egyptian trading links with other regions is well known, and a commodity like straighter 'cynotrichous' hair could have been easily obtained via the Sahara, Levant, the Maghreb, Mediterranean contacts, or even the hair of Asiatic war captives or casualties from Egypt's numerous conflicts. There is little need to postulate mass influxes of European admixtures or populations to account for hair types in wigs. The limb proportion studies of the ancient Egyptians showing them to be much more related to tropical types than to Europids, is further demonstration of the fallacy of using hair as 'proof' of a 'Aryan' or predominantly European admixed Egypt.
Nubian wigs and wigs in Egypt
Such exchanges or use of hair appear elsewhere in the Nile valley. Tomb finds show Nubians themselves wearing wigs of straight hair. But one Nubian from the Royal valley, of the 12th century, named Maherpra, was found to be wearing a wig himself, made up of tightly curled 'negroid' hair, on top of his natural covering (Fletcher 2002). The so-called "Nubian wig" also appears in Egyptian art relief's depicting daily life, a stylistic arrangement thought to imitate those found in southern Egypt or Nubia. Such wigs appear to have been popular with both Egyptians and Nubians. Fletcher 2004 notes that the famous queen Nefertiti made frequent use of the Nubian wig: "Nefertiti and her daughter seem to have set a trend for wearing the Nubian wig.. a coiffure first worn by Nubian mercenaries and clearly associated with the military." A detail of a wall scene in Theban tomb TT.55 shows the queen wearing the Nubian wig. Infantrymen from the Nubia. Note both bow and battle-axe carried into combat.
Nubian infantrymen shown with distinctive Nubian wig. From Deir el-Bahri, Temple of Hatshepsut New Kingdom, Eighteenth Dynasty, 1480 B.C.
Hair studies of Nubians show built-in African genetic variability
Hair studies of Nubians have also been undertaken. One study at Semna, in Nubia (Daniel Hrdy 1978- Analysis of Hair Samples of Mummies from Semna South, American Journal of Physical Anthropology, (1978) 49: 277-262), found curling patterns intermediate between Northwest European and African samples. The X-group, especially males, showed more African elements than the Meroitic in the curling variables. Crimping and curvature data patterned in a northwest Europe direction. These data plots however do not necessarily indicate race admixture or percentages, or the presence of European migrants or colonists (see Keita 2005 below), but rather a data pattern of variation in how hair curls, and native African diversity which cases substantial overlap with non-African groups. This is a routine occurrence within human groups.
Africa has the highest phenotypic variation, just as it has the highest geentic variation- accommodating a wide range of features for its peoples without the need for any "race mix: Relethford (2001) shows that ".. methods for estimating regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic studies." (Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5, October 2001, pp. 629-636) Hanihara 2003 notes that [significant] "..intraregional diversity are present in Subsaharan Africans.." While ancient Egypt had gene flow in various eras, hair variations easily fall under this pattern of built-in, indigenous diversity, as well as the above noted cultural practice of using wigs with hair from different places obtained through trade.
Among Europeans for example, some people have curlier hair and some have straighter hair than others. Various peoples of East and West Africa also have narrow noses, which are different from other peoples elsewhere in Africa, nevertheless they still remain Africans. DNA studies also note greater variation within selected populations that without. Since Africa has the highest genetic diversity in the world, such routine variation in characteristics such as hair need not indicate any racial percentage or admixture, but simply part of the built-in genetic diversity of the ancient peoples on the continent. Indeed, the Semna study author notes that blondism, especially in young children, is common in many dark-haired populations (e.g., Australian, Melanesian), and is still found in some Nubian villages. As regards hair color variation, reddish type hair is associated with the presence of pheomelanin, which can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well. See "Rameses" below. Albinism is another source of red hair.
Dubious attempts at 'racial analysis' using Nubian hair and crania. Assorted supporters of the stereotypical Aryan 'race' model attempt to use hair to argue for a predominantly 'white' Nubia. But as noted above, such attempts are dubious given built-in African genetic diversity. Often 'racial' hair claims attempt to link on with cranial studies purporting to match ancient Nubians with Swedes, Frenchmen, etc. But such claims are also dubious. In a detailed analysis of the Fordisc computer program used to put forward such claims, Williams, Armelagos, et al. (2005) found that the program created ludicrous "matches" between the ancient Nubian crania and peoples from Hungary, Japan, Easter Island and a host of others in far-flung regions! Their conclusion was that the diversity of human populations in the databank explained such wide ranging matches. Such objective mainstream analyses debunk obsolete and improbable claims of 'racial' migrations of alleged Frenchman, Hungarians, or other whites into ancient Nubia, or equally improbable racial 'percentages' supposedly quantifying such claims. (Frank l'engle Williams, Robert L. Belcher, and George J . Armelagos, "Forensic Misclassification of Ancient Nubian Crania: Implications for Assumptions about Human Variation," Current Anthropology, volume 46 (2005), pages 340-346)
Alleged massive influx of Europeans and Middle Easterners to give the ancient peoples hair variation did not happen. Such variation was already in place as part of Africa' built in genetic and phenotypic diversity. As regards diameter, the average diameter of the Semna sample was close to both the Northwest European and East African samples. This again suggests a range of built-in African indigenous variability, and calls into questions various migration theories to the Nile Valley. One study for example (Keita 2005) tested the model of C. Loring Brace (1993) as to the notion of incoming European migrants replacing indigenous peoples of the Nile Valley. Brace's work had also suggested a relationship between northwest Europeans such as Scandanavians and African peoples of the Horn. Data analysis failed to support this model, instead clustering samples much closer to African series than to Europeans. Keita concluded that similarities between African data in his survey (skulls, etc) and non-Africans was not due to gene flow, but a subset of built-in African variability.
Ancient Egyptians cluster much closer to other Egyptians and Nubians. A later study by Brace, (Brace 2005- The questionable contribution..) groups ancient Egyptian populations like the Naqada closer to Nubians and Somalis than European, Mediterranean or Middle Eastern populations, and places various Nubians samples closer to Tanzanian, Dahomeian, and Congoid data points than to Europeans and Middle easterners. The limb proportion studies of Zakrzewski (2003) (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.) showing the tropical body plan of the ancient Egyptians also undercuts theories of inflowing European or near Eastern colonists, or the 'native Europid' model of Strouhal (1971).
The yellowish-red-hair of Rameses: proof of a Nordic Egypt?
Red hair itself is within the range of African diversity or that of dark-skinned peoples. Native black Australoids for example routinely produce blonde hair:
Detailed microscopic analysis during the 1980s (Balout 1985) identified some of the hair of Egyptian Pharoah Rameses II as being a yellowish-red. Such a finding should not be surprising given the wide range of physical variability in Africa, the most genetically diverse region on earth, out of which flowed other population groups. Indeed, blondism and various other hair shades are not unknown in East Africa or Nubia, particularly in children, nor are such hair color variants uncommon in dark-haired or dark skinned populations like the Australians. (Hrdy 1978) Given the range of genetic variability in Africa, a red-haired Rameses is hardly unusual. Rameses' reign, in the 19th Dynasty, came over 1,500 years after the Egyptian state had been established, and after the Hyskos interlude. Such latecomers to Egypt, like the Hyskos, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs etc would add their own genetic strands to the nation’s mix. Whatever the blend of genes that occurred with Rameses, his hair offers little supposed "proof" of a "white" or "Nordic" Egypt. If anything, X-rays of the royal mummies from earlier Dynasties by mainstream scientists show that the Egyptians pharaohs and other royals had varied 'Negroid' leanings. See X-Rays of the Royal mummies here, or here.
Pheomelanin and Rameses- found in light and dark-haired populations: The finding of Rameses “red” hair also deserves further scrutiny. The analysis found evidence of dyeing to make the hair yellowish-red, but some elements were untouched by the dye. These elements of yellowish-red hair in Balout’s study, were established on the basis of the presence of pheomelanin, a red-brown polymeric pigment in the skin and hair of humans. However, pheomelanin can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well, which gives it a reddish hue. Most natural melanins contain sulfur, which is typically associated with pheomelanin. In scientific tests of melanin, black hair contained as much as 5% sulfur, 3% lower than the 8.8% found in Irish red hair, but exceeding the 2.3% found in Scandinavian blond hair. (Jolles, et al. 1996) Thus the yellowish-red hair discovered on Rameses is well within the range of human variation for dark haired people, whatever the exact gene combination that led to the condition.
Rameses hair was not a typical European red, but yellowish-red, within African variation. It was also not ultra straight, further undermining claims of "Nordic" influence. Somalians and Ethiopians are SUB-SAHARANS and they routinely produce straight-haired people without the need for any "race mix" to explain why. The analysis on Rameses also did not show classic "European" red hair but hair of a light red to yellowish tinge. Black haired or dark-skinned populations are quite capable of producing such yellowish-red color variants on their own, as can be seen in today's east and northeast Africa (see child's photo above). Nor is such color variation unusual to Africa. Native dark-skinned populations in Australia, routinely produce people with blond or reddish hair. As noted above, ultra diverse Africa is the original source of such variation.
The analysis also found the hair to be cymotrich or wavy, again a characteristic quite within the range of overall African or Nile valley physical and genetic diversity. A "pure" Nordic type of straight hair was thus not established for Rameses. Hence the notion of white Europeans or red-headed Caucasoids from other areas flowing into ancient Egypt to add hair variation, particularly the early centuries of the dynastic state is unlikely. Such flows may have occurred most heavily in the Greek and Roman era but say nothing about the thousands of years preceding. The presence of pheomelanin conditions or other genetic combinations also explains how the different hair used in Egyptian wigs could vary in color, aside from environmental oxidation, bleaching and dyeing.
Red hair is rare worldwide, and history shows little evidence of Northern Europeans or "Nordics" sweeping into Egypt to give the natives a bit of hair coloring or variation. Most red hair is found in northern and western Europe, especially in the British Isles, and even then it appears in minor frequencies in Europe- some 4% of the population. It is unlikely such populations had any major contact or influence in the ancient Nile Valley. As noted above, red hair is comparatively rare in the world’s populations and pheomelanin conditions are found in dark-haired populations, and thus is well within the range of variation from the Sahara, East Africa and the Nile valley. “White Aryan” theories of Egypt are seen in the works of HFK Gunther (1927), Archibald Sayce (1925) and Raymond Dart (1939), and still find traction on a number of 'Aryan', neo-nazi and "race" websites and blogs which purport to show a "white Nordic Egypt" using Rameses' "red" hair as an example. Today's scientific research however, has debunked these dubious views, showing that red hair, while not common world wide, is a well known variant within human populations, even those with dark hair.
Straight or curly hair is also routine among sub-Saharans like Somalians, who are firmly part of the East African populations. As regards Somalians for example, Somali DNA overwhelmingly links much more heavily with other Africans including Kenyans & Ethiopians (85%), than with Europeans & Middle Easterners. (15%) On Y-chromosome markers (E3b1), Somalis (77%) and other African populations dwarf small European (5.1%) or Middle Eastern (6.3%) frequencies. “The data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the East African population..” (Sanchez et al., High frequencies of Y chromosome lineages.. in Somali males (2005)
As one mainstream researcher notes about the dubious value of "racial" hair analysis:
"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories. Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as 1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically indistinguishable". --Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Keep in mind central Americans are dark while those to the north and south are light. And if you don’t know what I am talking about then get out o
many of the North American Indians are dark
Teton Sioux Indians
Canadian
Mrs. Maria Ayuluk of Chevak, Alaska
Inuit
Inuit
Eskimo
When I look at various Northern Indians there seem to be a lot of inconsistencies of skin pigmenation
That is because Native America was probably very early on influenced by the coming of dark Africans or Afro-Asiatics YOur NeanderHighness. Some of course may have already been plenty dark coming over from Asia though. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: That is because Native America was probably very early on influenced by the coming of dark Africans or Afro-Asiatics Your NeanderHighness. Some of course may have already been plenty dark coming over from Asia though.
what do you mean Native America was probably very early on influenced by the coming of dark Africans or Afro-Asiatics?
what coming of dark Africans or Afro-Asiatics into the Americas are you referring to?
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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