when the overal picture one gets of Ancient Egyptian physical characteristics, ie, cranial, brachial, genetic, (which she will - in combination - never be able to duplicate in leucoderm Eurasians), all point to an exclusively Nile Valley/Eastern Saharan origin.
The actual studies where the authors say something like that is when they compare to "Europeans", averaging them. But these authors don't use the word "exclusively" and broad spectrum of Middle Eastern limb indices is lacking. Even a figure for modern Egyptians AQUEYBONO says lacking. The suggestion, that "African" is a race.
So let me get this right. I tell you that the total picture, which includes morphometric/non-metric/metric dental and cranial analysis, which includes limb proportions, which includes log shape, which includes genetics, which includes linguistics etc etc, shows that they originated in the Eastern Sahara, and you reply back by ignoring all of those scientific areas wherein Ancient Egyptians have already proven to differ from both Middle Easterners and Europeans, and discarting all of that for the possibility that some middle easteners have overlapping crural indices?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
No, it's to verify your statement that
[QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Swenet: My view: its obvious that the crural ranges of whites and blacks overlap.
And to look at Middle Eastern people more specifically many of whom don't identify as white or black.
You mean to tell me you've never seen this chart, originally posted by Calabooz, for your azz to be dumbfounded by the idea that European and African ranges overlap?
quote:actually I'm trying to go straight TO the data and all these indices you mention and get more specific about them. One of the big issues here is could there have been any significant input of Middle Esatern/Mesopotamian peoples into Egypt.
Whats taking your ass so long then? Its been two months short of two years since you reared your silly head on this site, and all you've accomplished is posting ambiguous Egyptian statues, and asking the same idiotic questions over and over. The answer as to why you haven't been able to make a case in those two years: there is nothing there, lol.
quote:^^^ what's your point here?
The point, is to confront your dumbass with the fact that their limb proportions were the same as that of other long term residents of the Eastern Sahara.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
^^1ol.. To the limb data too could be added the cranial evidence, including Hanihara's facial flatness studies that shows Egyptians clustering with other tropical Africans like Nubians..
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posted
^ By zarahans definition/criteria of 'tropical african' White Europeans are tropically adapted.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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Mitochondrial DNA Sequence Diversity in a Sedentary Population from Egypt A. Stevanovitch1,*, A. Gilles2, E. Bouzaid1, R. Kefi1, F. Paris3, R. P. Gayraud4, J. L. Spadoni1, F. El-Chenawi5, E. Béraud-Colomb1,*
Summary The mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) diversity of 58 individuals from Upper Egypt, more than half (34 individuals) from Gurna, whose population has an ancient cultural history, were studied by sequencing the control-region and screening diagnostic RFLP markers.
This sedentary population presented similarities to the Ethiopian population by the L1 and L2 macrohaplogroup frequency (20.6%), by the West Eurasian component (defined by haplogroups H to K and T to X) and particularly by a high frequency (17.6%) of haplogroup M1. We statistically and phylogenetically analysed and compared the Gurna population with other Egyptian, Near East and sub-Saharan Africa populations; AMOVA and Minimum Spanning Network analysis showed that the Gurna population was not isolated from neighbouring populations.
Our results suggest that the Gurna population has conserved the trace of an ancestral genetic structure from an ancestral East African population, characterized by a high M1 haplogroup frequency. The current structure of the Egyptian population may be the result of further influence of neighbouring populations on this ancestral population.
Introduction The debate on the emergence and dispersion of modern humans has been continuing for several decades (Vigilant et al. 1991; Wolpoff et al. 1997; Templeton, 1997; Ingman et al. 2000), the difficulty being to link current populations to archaeological records. Recently genetic data and archaeological remains have supported Out of Africa migrations of early modern humans, followed by gene flow between local populations (Templeton, 2002).
Mitochondrial genetic data from North Africa are documented by two groups of populations: one composed of populations of the Nile Valley, and the other by populations of the Maghreb. The Nile Valley has been shown to be a migration corridor with populations connected by gene flow (Krings et al. 1999), and phylogeographical analysis of mitochondrial lineages of populations from the Maghreb suggests that modern humans appeared from the Near East following at least two migrations around 50 000 years and 10 000 years ago. A possible migration from Europe may also have occurred during the Neolithic period (Macaulay et al. 1999). The frequencies of the sub-Saharan component, through analysis of L1 and L2 haplogroups in northwestern Africa, are relatively low (from 3% to 14%) (Macaulay et al. 1999; Brakez et al. 2001). The most ancient haplogroup observed in the Maghreb is U6; this haplogroup is included in macrohaplogroup U (which appears to be the oldest haplogroup in Europe). Macrohaplogroup U, characterized by the 12308 HinfI site gain, has an estimated age of 50 400–58 900 years, and may originate from the L3d haplogroup which arose in sub-Saharan Africa and then moved upwards into eastern Africa, and out of eastern Africa to the Middle East (Chen et al. 2000).
Analysis of mtDNA sequence data of Near Eastern populations has shown that 5% of sub-Saharan lineages and 2% of lineages of Eastern Eurasian origin are present in the Levant (Richards et al. 2000). This geographic area appears more and more as a source for human migrations to Europe during the Paleolithic and Neolithic periods (Richards et al. 1996; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994). Most of the European mtDNA founder lineages originated in the Near East (Richards et al. 2000), except for the V haplogroup, which originated in Europe (Torroni et al. 2001).
Due to its central position in Northern Africa, between the Maghreb and the Near East, Egypt must have played a crucial role in modern human dispersion. Only a small amount of data is available in data banks, with 68 individuals studied by Krings et al. (1999).
In this article, we report an analysis of mtDNA diversity in a sedentary Egyptian population: the Gurna population. We have studied the mtDNA of 34 individuals, using PCR, sequencing and RFLP analysis. With a frequency of 17.6% for M1 haplogroup, the Gurna population shows a high similarity to the Ethiopian population.
Discussion
Analysis of mitochondrial DNA diversity in a sedentary Egyptian population from Gurna shows that the M1 haplogroup is present in this region at a frequency similar to that observed in the Ethiopian population. The level of the M1 haplogroup in Gurna (17.6%) is the second highest value obtained for this haplogroup, just below the value of the Ethiopian population (20%) (Quintana-Murci et al. 1999). RFLP groupings of Gurna samples carried out as established by Passarino et al. (1998) showed that the Gurna population was close to the Ethiopian population also for L1 and L2 macrohaplogroup frequency and by a West Eurasian component which seems similar in frequency but different in haplogroup distribution. On the other hand, despite its M1 specificity, statistical analysis of haplotypes of Gurnawis indicated that the Gurna population was not isolated from all other neighbouring populations. It was not statistically different from any other Egyptian or Sudanese populations, exhibiting an intermediate genetic status between European and sub-Saharan according to Northern/Southern analysis (following criteria described in Krings et al. (1999). The Gurna population appeared statistically as close to Near Eastern as to sub-Saharan and Sudanese populations, even though these two groups were statistically different.
The Gurna area could be the meeting point of two independent waves of migration from the Near East and from sub-Saharan Africa, as suggested by the central position of the Gurna population in the unrooted NJ tree and the genetic and the nucleotidic diversity of the analysed populations. The presence in the Gurna gene pool of haplogroups found in Near Eastern populations but absent in sub-Saharan ones (like U4), and haplogroups found in sub-Saharan populations but only sporadically present in Near Eastern ones (like L1), reinforces this observation.
However, the Gurnawi gene pool does not consist of a simple combination of Near Eastern and sub-Saharan gene pools, but also includes an East African specific component. This situation has already been observed for the Ethiopian gene pool (Passarino et al. 1998). Thus, the report of a second population in this geographic area showing a similar distribution of mtDNA haplotypes, including the same high frequency of a specific haplogroup (M1), raises the question of a hypothetical presence of an ancestral East African population. Such a population, as evoked by Passarino et al. (1998) for Ethiopia, could have settled on a wider area from Egypt to Ethiopia (including Sudan), the differences observed in current populations being due to further influences from neighbours (South Arabian peninsula for Ethiopia (Maca-Meyer et al. 2001), sub-Saharan input for Sudan as demonstrated in this study by a high exchange rate between Sudanese and Kenyan populations). A similar hypothesis of the existence of an ancestral population characterized by a specific haplogroup could also be evoked in the Maghreb with the U6 haplogroup (Brakez et al. 2001; Rando et al. 1998).
The results of this study point to a genetic structure of the Gurna population similar to that of the Ethiopian one. This population structure has probably been conserved in some other Egyptian populations even though those which have already been analyzed, such as Mansoura, Assiout and Cairo, failed to show the same characteristics. Mansoura, Assiout and Cairo are very big cities with much continuous and current admixture of individuals from several other regions and countries forming great melting pots. Consequently, data from these great conurbations could be somewhat biased. More extensive investigation of the genetic structure of Egyptians from other villages and from Ethiopian and Sudanese populations will be required to complete the understanding of the structuring of the current population from the ancestral East African population.
Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5906 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Mitochondrial DNA Sequence Diversity in a Sedentary Population from Egypt A. Stevanovitch1,*, A. Gilles2, E. Bouzaid1, R. Kefi1, F. Paris3, R. P. Gayraud4, J. L. Spadoni1, F. El-Chenawi5, E. Béraud-Colomb1,*
Summary The mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) diversity of 58 individuals from Upper Egypt, more than half (34 individuals) from Gurna, whose population has an ancient cultural history, were studied by sequencing the control-region and screening diagnostic RFLP markers.
This sedentary population presented similarities to the Ethiopian population by the L1 and L2 macrohaplogroup frequency (20.6%), by the West Eurasian component (defined by haplogroups H to K and T to X) and particularly by a high frequency (17.6%) of haplogroup M1. We statistically and phylogenetically analysed and compared the Gurna population with other Egyptian, Near East and sub-Saharan Africa populations; AMOVA and Minimum Spanning Network analysis showed that the Gurna population was not isolated from neighbouring populations.
Our results suggest that the Gurna population has conserved the trace of an ancestral genetic structure from an ancestral East African population, characterized by a high M1 haplogroup frequency. The current structure of the Egyptian population may be the result of further influence of neighbouring populations on this ancestral population.
Introduction The debate on the emergence and dispersion of modern humans has been continuing for several decades (Vigilant et al. 1991; Wolpoff et al. 1997; Templeton, 1997; Ingman et al. 2000), the difficulty being to link current populations to archaeological records. Recently genetic data and archaeological remains have supported Out of Africa migrations of early modern humans, followed by gene flow between local populations (Templeton, 2002).
Mitochondrial genetic data from North Africa are documented by two groups of populations: one composed of populations of the Nile Valley, and the other by populations of the Maghreb. The Nile Valley has been shown to be a migration corridor with populations connected by gene flow (Krings et al. 1999), and phylogeographical analysis of mitochondrial lineages of populations from the Maghreb suggests that modern humans appeared from the Near East following at least two migrations around 50 000 years and 10 000 years ago. A possible migration from Europe may also have occurred during the Neolithic period (Macaulay et al. 1999). The frequencies of the sub-Saharan component, through analysis of L1 and L2 haplogroups in northwestern Africa, are relatively low (from 3% to 14%) (Macaulay et al. 1999; Brakez et al. 2001). The most ancient haplogroup observed in the Maghreb is U6; this haplogroup is included in macrohaplogroup U (which appears to be the oldest haplogroup in Europe). Macrohaplogroup U, characterized by the 12308 HinfI site gain, has an estimated age of 50 400–58 900 years, and may originate from the L3d haplogroup which arose in sub-Saharan Africa and then moved upwards into eastern Africa, and out of eastern Africa to the Middle East (Chen et al. 2000).
Analysis of mtDNA sequence data of Near Eastern populations has shown that 5% of sub-Saharan lineages and 2% of lineages of Eastern Eurasian origin are present in the Levant (Richards et al. 2000). This geographic area appears more and more as a source for human migrations to Europe during the Paleolithic and Neolithic periods (Richards et al. 1996; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994). Most of the European mtDNA founder lineages originated in the Near East (Richards et al. 2000), except for the V haplogroup, which originated in Europe (Torroni et al. 2001).
Due to its central position in Northern Africa, between the Maghreb and the Near East, Egypt must have played a crucial role in modern human dispersion. Only a small amount of data is available in data banks, with 68 individuals studied by Krings et al. (1999).
In this article, we report an analysis of mtDNA diversity in a sedentary Egyptian population: the Gurna population. We have studied the mtDNA of 34 individuals, using PCR, sequencing and RFLP analysis. With a frequency of 17.6% for M1 haplogroup, the Gurna population shows a high similarity to the Ethiopian population.
Discussion
Analysis of mitochondrial DNA diversity in a sedentary Egyptian population from Gurna shows that the M1 haplogroup is present in this region at a frequency similar to that observed in the Ethiopian population. The level of the M1 haplogroup in Gurna (17.6%) is the second highest value obtained for this haplogroup, just below the value of the Ethiopian population (20%) (Quintana-Murci et al. 1999). RFLP groupings of Gurna samples carried out as established by Passarino et al. (1998) showed that the Gurna population was close to the Ethiopian population also for L1 and L2 macrohaplogroup frequency and by a West Eurasian component which seems similar in frequency but different in haplogroup distribution. On the other hand, despite its M1 specificity, statistical analysis of haplotypes of Gurnawis indicated that the Gurna population was not isolated from all other neighbouring populations. It was not statistically different from any other Egyptian or Sudanese populations, exhibiting an intermediate genetic status between European and sub-Saharan according to Northern/Southern analysis (following criteria described in Krings et al. (1999). The Gurna population appeared statistically as close to Near Eastern as to sub-Saharan and Sudanese populations, even though these two groups were statistically different.
The Gurna area could be the meeting point of two independent waves of migration from the Near East and from sub-Saharan Africa, as suggested by the central position of the Gurna population in the unrooted NJ tree and the genetic and the nucleotidic diversity of the analysed populations. The presence in the Gurna gene pool of haplogroups found in Near Eastern populations but absent in sub-Saharan ones (like U4), and haplogroups found in sub-Saharan populations but only sporadically present in Near Eastern ones (like L1), reinforces this observation.
However, the Gurnawi gene pool does not consist of a simple combination of Near Eastern and sub-Saharan gene pools, but also includes an East African specific component. This situation has already been observed for the Ethiopian gene pool (Passarino et al. 1998). Thus, the report of a second population in this geographic area showing a similar distribution of mtDNA haplotypes, including the same high frequency of a specific haplogroup (M1), raises the question of a hypothetical presence of an ancestral East African population. Such a population, as evoked by Passarino et al. (1998) for Ethiopia, could have settled on a wider area from Egypt to Ethiopia (including Sudan), the differences observed in current populations being due to further influences from neighbours (South Arabian peninsula for Ethiopia (Maca-Meyer et al. 2001), sub-Saharan input for Sudan as demonstrated in this study by a high exchange rate between Sudanese and Kenyan populations). A similar hypothesis of the existence of an ancestral population characterized by a specific haplogroup could also be evoked in the Maghreb with the U6 haplogroup (Brakez et al. 2001; Rando et al. 1998).
The results of this study point to a genetic structure of the Gurna population similar to that of the Ethiopian one. This population structure has probably been conserved in some other Egyptian populations even though those which have already been analyzed, such as Mansoura, Assiout and Cairo, failed to show the same characteristics. Mansoura, Assiout and Cairo are very big cities with much continuous and current admixture of individuals from several other regions and countries forming great melting pots. Consequently, data from these great conurbations could be somewhat biased. More extensive investigation of the genetic structure of Egyptians from other villages and from Ethiopian and Sudanese populations will be required to complete the understanding of the structuring of the current population from the ancestral East African population.
And what the hell does all of this have to do with the topic of limb proportions?? Yes the genetics show an EAST AFRICAN affinity which coincides with skeletal data, meaning you LOSE. LOL Next!
Posts: 26311 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5906 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Now ask them if them a person's limb proportions can change and adapt to a new environment during a life time and even though they'll answer you they will leave out the laughter at your dumbass!
lol
Posts: 5906 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Now ask them if them a person's limb proportions can change and adapt to a new environment during a life time and even though they'll answer you they will leave out the laughter at your dumbass!
lol
jackass:
"Limb proportions can change during growth and development in response to the environment (it's too late for adults, of course). For example, they can become foreshortened if a juvenile animal is consistently exposed to cold."-Dr. Trenton W. Holliday
Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Trenton clearly said that limb forshortening is caused by growth inhibitions due to a lack of normal bloodflow to the distal extremities, not adaptation, hence, why the same is not true in reverse (ie, children with cold adapted parents aquiring longer limbs during development in a warm region).
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5906 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^YOU'RE the jackass.
Trenton clearly said that limb forshortening is caused by growth inhibitions due to a lack of normal bloodflow to the distal extremities, not adaptation, hence, why the same is not true in reverse (ie, children with cold adapted parents aquiring longer limbs during development in a warm region).
How I could I be the jackass? I was asked the question by zoro:
"Now ask them if them a person's limb proportions can change and adapt to a new environment during a life time "
you people keep resorting to semantic games. He said "change and adapt" when not pointing to the selection process specifically the word "adapataion" simply means change. Now like a mini lawyer you try to turn it into a trick question or technicality. Stop the BS. Can a person's limb proportions can change to a new environment during a life time is a question addressed earlier in this thread. The answer is yes. The point that limbs can shorten due to cold but not lenghten due to heat (during a lifetime beginning with infant stage) I, the lioness, already stated. This is just zoro not reading the thread and rehashing points already made by moi in a cheap attempt to get points against the lioness. These word gimmicks don't work, trying to throw the word "adaptation" into the question to make it ambiguous. 'ness don't play that You guys have have been reduced to semantics buzzing around my head like gnats
(now you'll probably say gnats don't buzz-this is the type of stuff I'm talking about) now there are two jackasses
Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:He said "change and adapt" when not pointing to the selection process
Yes, Djehuty was against the idea that limb proportions have the potential to change and/or adapt during growth, and he was right, dim witted retard.
Nowhere does Trenton support the idea of limb proportions changing or adapting to cold or warm wheather during a lifetime.
quote:the word "adapataion" simply means change
Of course ''adaptation'' doesn't mean ''change'', just like ''racing'' doesn't mean ''driving'', but you're free to fool yourself into thinking it does. And to reitorate: Trenton has said nothing about limb proportions changing; only about growth inhibitions.
quote:Now like a mini lawyer you try to turn it into a BALALAL-HDHEWD-BLA=-WGUDHFWOUODHJSHDFOHSODHFUOSB
quote:Originally posted by Sweetnet: Yes, Djehuty was against the idea that limb proportions have the potential to change and/or adapt during growth, and he was right, dim witted retard.
Nowhere does Trenton support the idea of limb proportions changing or adapting to cold or warm wheather during a lifetime.
to jackass # 5, a quote:
" Limb proportions can change during growth and development in response to the environment (it's too late for adults, of course). For example, they can become foreshortened if a juvenile animal is consistently exposed to cold.
posted
^In that email, Trenton is talking about change relative to what is expected given the pattern of previous generations.
The change I was referring to, that is unsupported, was clearly about change as in: the environment directly acting as another influencing factor, aside from genetic factors (which is unsupported, and unsurprisingly, exactly what Simplistic and Lyingass were talking about before that Trenton email shut them down).
Trenton is saying the environment (cold wheather) can act only indirectly. Read a book biatch!
Note: no human baby is consistently exposed to cold wheather, since us humans have many cultural buffers (we are never permenantly in a state where bloodflow is primarily reduced to the visceral organs, and out of the distal extremities).
The growth inhibition Trenton is talking about is lab induced, and not applicable to humans, and this is reflected by the fact that AMH in Europe still sported tropical limbs on par with Africans.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Sweetnet: ^In that email, Trenton is talking about change relative to what is expected given the pattern of previous generations.
The change I was referring to, that is unsupported, was clearly about change as in: the environment directly acting as another influencing factor, aside from genetic factors (which is unsupported, and unsurprisingly, exactly what Simplistic and Lyingass were talking about before that Trenton email shut them down).
Trenton is saying the environment (cold wheather) can act only indirectly. Read a book biatch!
Note: no human baby is consistently exposed to cold wheather, since us humans have many cultural buffers (we are never permenantly in a state where bloodflow is primarily reduced to the visceral organs, and out of the distal extremities).
in other words he did say it and now you are doing a dance
quote:Originally posted by Sweetnet:The growth inhibition Trenton is talking about is lab induced, and not applicable to humans
what are you on a first name basis? Holliday did not say it is not applicable to humans. That is your speculation, butthead
Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:in other words he did say it and now you are doing a dance
They are saying in effect if you raise a baby of parents who are tropically proportioned in a cold environment that baby will develop cold adapted limbs. Likewise if you took a cold adapted baby and raised it in a hot environment it would develop tropical limbs. -Lying azz
quote:Holliday did not say it is not applicable to humans. That is your speculation, butthead
Retard, what are the environmental conditions that cause the body to cut off blood from the distal extremities?
What bodily responses do humans exhibit when they find themselves in such environmental conditions, and their bloodflow is relatively restricted to their visceral organs?
Are there populations who permanantly walk around exhibiting those automatic bodily responses?
Dumb b!tch!!
Def. needs to read a book!
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
^Is there anything you want to tell the forum about your comment?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:in other words he did say it and now you are doing a dance
They are saying in effect if you raise a baby of parents who are tropically proportioned in a cold environment that baby will develop cold adapted limbs. Likewise if you took a cold adapted baby and raised it in a hot environment it would develop tropical limbs. -Lying azz
quote:Holliday did not say it is not applicable to humans. That is your speculation, butthead
Retard, what are the environmental conditions that cause the body to cut off blood from the distal extremities?
What bodily responses do humans exhibit when they find themselves in such environmental conditions, and their bloodflow is relatively restricted to their visceral organs?
Are there populations who permanantly walk around exhibiting those automatic bodily responses?
Dumb b!tch!!
Def. needs to read a book!
asshole, have you not been following the thread I wrote this on the previous page:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Thanks to Grumman for sending an email. I would also like to hear what Maria Serrat has to say but I didn't have the email address. However this Trenton Holliday remark is fairly convincing about Native Americans not developing tropically adapted limbs in tropical envrionments. Although Holliday didn't say it outright AGÜEYBONO said "guess it's much easier to become more cold adapted than it is to become tropically adapted" That seems like a logical conclusion. Based on Holliday's remark I now think that while a tropical mammal could develop cold adapted limbs during their lifetime if subjected to a cold environment from infancy but a cold adapted mammal could not develop longer, tropically adapted limbs if subjected to a tropical environment from infancy.
so you are you blowing hot air now pretending I never said this, damn you are a waste of space, all your comments on this totally pointless
Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^Is there anything you want to tell the forum about your comment?
Not really (basic concept), which is why I specifically directed lioness to do some leg work and "look it up". This is of course assuming that she's curious about the physiological mechanism that Holiday was describing in his e-mail. Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
^Just making sure I'm not missing any developments surrounding the functional adaptations of limb proportions.
quote:Holliday did not say it is not applicable to humans. That is your speculation, butthead
Retard, what are the environmental conditions that cause the body to cut off blood from the distal extremities?
What bodily responses do humans exhibit when they find themselves in such environmental conditions, and their bloodflow is relatively restricted to their visceral organs?
Are there populations who permanantly walk around exhibiting those automatic bodily responses?
Dumb b!tch!!
Def. needs to read a book!
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
It is enthralling to see you expanding your knowledge base. Stay away from pictures and keep to real(updated) science. There is hope for you yet. Your buddy, C-Ass, should do the same.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: if somebody who has access please post the table for limb proportions of 686 subjects (461 men and 225 women)
from the following article:
Modern human, early modern human and Neanderthal limb proportions A.M.W. Porter
posted
^ LMAO @ the dumb lyinass worm! Didn't Grumman already email Holliday and get an answer from him??! In nowhere did Holliday say a baby of cold adapted parents will all of a sudden grow tropical adapted limbs in a tropical environment! In fact he cites the case of Native Americans of Central and South America who have lived in those tropical environments for many generations yet still retain cold adapted proportions!
Posts: 26311 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ LMAO @ the dumb lyinass worm! Didn't Grumman already email Holliday and get an answer from him??! In nowhere did Holliday say a baby of cold adapted parents will all of a sudden grow tropical adapted limbs in a tropical environment! In fact he cites the case of Native Americans of Central and South America who have lived in those tropical environments for many generations yet still retain cold adapted proportions!
go back in the thread idiot. I acknowledged that and dismissed the possibility.
And I just quoted it again to Sweetnet, you dumb fuck
You try to do the same lame thing he did > read an earlier part of the thread, ignore my change of postion and pretened you are making an argument against something I had already agreed on. That's the type of tactics you have been reduced to, contibuting nothing trying to rehash for the sole purpose of collecting points agaist the lioness just to try pathetically to get status here. Well you get no status for that because you waste everybody's time trying to rehash something where I plainly stated my change of opinon and dropped the topic. Again you prove to be a cheerleader desperately trying to milk points after Sweetnet already attempted the same lame tactic. To stupid to encourage the change of opinion what you encourage is a false opposition to try to make yourself look good. Instead you look dumb question: will you ever learn?
Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Sweetnet: Yes, Djehuty was against the idea that limb proportions have the potential to change and/or adapt during growth, and he was right, dim witted retard.
Nowhere does Trenton support the idea of limb proportions changing or adapting to cold or warm wheather during a lifetime.
to jackass # 5, a quote:
" Limb proportions can change during growth and development in response to the environment (it's too late for adults, of course). For example, they can become foreshortened if a juvenile animal is consistently exposed to cold.
- Trenton Holliday"
Can you post the study, where Trenton Holliday stated this particularly.
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
^ Ignoring the rants of an angry lying worm above you, yes I acknowledge the possibility that cold climate may indeed influence the limb development but not that much to say that a baby born of tropically adapted parents growing up in Siberia will have the body plan of local Chukchi! LOL To believe so is equally laughable as the claim the other way around.
Posts: 26311 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Indeed. One thing about limb proportions is that they are relatively stable, and don't change quickly over time, relatively speaking, than say nose shapes and other features. Even when tropical people move to cold climates, it takes quite a bit of time to overcome the strong genetic encoding for tropical or any body proportions. SO that baby will not change anytime soon at all. Hence the importance of the tropical plan seen in Ancient Egyptians.
Posts: 5906 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Ignoring the rants of an angry lying worm above you, yes I acknowledge the possibility that cold climate may indeed influence the limb development but not that much to say that a baby born of tropically adapted parents growing up in Siberia will have the body plan of local Chukchi! LOL To believe so is equally laughable as the claim the other way around.
The reason why this impostor AA claims this, is so they can get rid of the cold and warm adopted body plan.
Because this stood and stands in their way. They unsuccessfully try to figure out away...But there is none.
"We also compare Egyptian body proportions to those of modern American Blacks and Whites... Long bone stature regression equations were then derived for each sex. Our results confirm that, although ancient Egyptians are closer in body proportion to modern American Blacks than they are to American Whites, proportions in Blacks and Egyptians are not identical... Intralimb indices are not significantly different between Egyptians and American Blacks... brachial indices are definitely more ‘African ’... There is no evidence for significant variation in proportions among temporal or social groupings; thus, the new formula may be broadly applicable to ancient Egyptian remains." ("Stature estimation in ancient Egyptians: A new technique based on anatomical reconstruction of stature." Michelle H. Raxter, Christopher B. Ruff, Ayman Azab, Moushira Erfan, Muhammad Soliman, Aly El-Sawaf,(Am J Phys Anthropol. 2008, Jun;136(2):147-5
Comparisons of linear body proportions of Old Kingdom and non-Old Kingdom period individuals, and workers and high officials in our sample found no statistically significant differences among them. Zakrzewski (2003) also found little evidence for differences in linear body proportions of Egyptians over a wider temporal range. In general, recent studies of skeletal variation among ancient Egyptians support scenarios of biological continuity through time. Irish (2006) analyzed quantitative and qualitative dental traits of 996 Egyptians from Neolithic through Roman periods, reporting the presence of a few outliers but concluding that the dental samples appear to be largely homogeneous and that the affinities observed indicate overall biological uniformity and continuity from Predynastic through Dynastic and Postdynastic periods.
Zakrzewski (2007) provided a comprehensive summary of previous Egyptian craniometric studies and examined Egyptian crania from six time periods. She found that the earlier samples were relatively more homogeneous in comparison to the later groups. However, overall results indicated genetic continuity over the Egyptian Predynastic and Early Dynastic periods, albeit with a high level of genetic diversity within the population, suggesting an indigenous process of state formation. She also concluded that while the biological patterning of the Egyptian population varied across time, no consistent temporal or spatial trends are apparent. Thus, the stature estimation formulae developed here may be broadly applicable to all ancient Egyptian populations..".
("Stature estimation in ancient Egyptians: A new technique based on anatomical reconstruction of stature." Michelle H. Raxter, Christopher B. Ruff, Ayman Azab, Moushira Erfan, Muhammad Soliman, Aly El-Sawaf,(Am J Phys Anthropol. 2008, Jun;136(2):147-55
I however like to read the study for myself.
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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[i]"We also compare Egyptian body proportions to those of modern American Blacks and Whites.
As an American Blacks I'm proud proud that my limb proportions are closer to the Egyptians than American Whites. How can their legs compare to my more Egyptianish legs? AND arms
Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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[i]"We also compare Egyptian body proportions to those of modern American Blacks and Whites.
As an American Blacks I'm proud proud that my limb proportions are closer to the Egyptians than American Whites. How can their legs compare to my more Egyptianish legs? AND arms
I did not as you that, what I asked was can you provide me the particular paper by Trenton Holliday.
Btw, there is nothing to be proud of, it is what it is.
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
I was looking over this A.M.W. Porter stuff. As per the article Modern human, early modern human and Neanderthal limb proportions
I don't know what the results are. it costs $35 to download. Anyway I noticed this other A.M.W. Porter item where he refers to these same ratios of "White", Inuit, Gurkha, Bantu, San" from that study and based on the results proposes an alternative theory about limb proportion:
HUMAN EVOLUTION Volume 14, Number 4, 261-275, DOI: 10.1007/BF02438931
Hominine morphology, climatic determinism and an alternative hypothesis
Alan M. W. Porter
Abstract Climatic determinism is an established hypothesis to explain phenotypic selection of hominine physique. Adaptations to heat and cold stress are, however, probably physiological rather than morphological. This paper advances an alternative hypothesis which relegates the influence of the climate to an indirect role only. Athletes select themselves into events for which their physiques are appropriate. ‘Field eventers’ are, in Sheldon's terminology, mesomorphic and ectopenic (muscular and lacking in linearity). ‘Track eventers’ other than sprinters, have balanced physiques and are ectomorphic (linear). Distance runners are usually small and walkers tall. All are endopenic (lacking in the fat component). The physique of the northern (Inuit and Gurkhas) and southern (Bantu and San) study populations had morphological affinities with the physiques of the field and track eveters respectively. Northern populations, hunting megafauna over hilly terrain and sometimes through snow, need physiques of strength in body and leg. Southern populations, running down medium-size game, need the physique of distance runners. The physique of these contemporary populations may therefore be explained in terms of adaptations to the recent demands of hunting a particular range of fauna in a given physicogeographical environment. The pleomorphism and relative endomorphy of the White subjects can be explained by the relative sedentism associated with the adoption of agriculture. The hypothesis also explains the extreme physiques of Pygmies and Nilotics. The thermoregulatory and the alternative ‘task demand’ hypotheses, however, are not incompatible. The small size of the San hunter, for example, whilst having an undoubted biomechanical advantage, will assist rather than hinder thermoregulation.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: I was looking over this A.M.W. Porter stuff. As per the article Modern human, early modern human and Neanderthal limb proportions
New studies have revealed that Africans don't have Neanderthals DNA. And from what is known Neanderthals lived in a cold environment for thousands up on thousands of years.
However, I did not ask you for this alternative hypothesis, what I asked was can you provide me the particular paper by Trenton Holliday.
I used to run middle long distances by the way.
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Distance runners are usually small and walkers tall.
The notion of small distance runners is shaky because East Africans, who are among some of the tallest populations in the world, also produce the world's best distance runners.
White subjects can be explained by the relative sedentism associated with the adoption of agriculture. The hypothesis also explains the extreme physiques of Pygmies and Nilotics.
^^Dubious as to any rigid application. Of course sedentism will produce heavier, fatter, populations, for the physical effort of nomadism is not as extreme. But this is so not only among white populations but chubby Bantu ones like various Zulu as well, who practiced extensive pastoralism with only moderate agriculture. Right off the bat any rigid "rules" about Africa are rendered questionable by the diversity of the continent. In addition, one of the most sedentary people of all time, the people of the ancient Nile Valley show body proportions QUITE UNLIKE white populations, again casting doubt on any "alternative hypothesis" as applied to Africa. Other African peoples with heavy agriculture, such as the root crop, bananna crop, sorghum-fed peoples of certain parts of East Africa (parts of the interlacustrine region's grain and bananna economies) for example) ALSO show body plans QUITE UNLIKE whites even though they too are "sedentary" since the "adoption of agriculture". In ultra diverse Africa many of the "rules" than seek to pigeonhole Africans into rigid "types" just do not apply, and are contradicted by built-in native variation on the ground.
Northern populations, hunting megafauna over hilly terrain and sometimes through snow, need physiques of strength in body and leg. Southern populations, running down medium-size game, need the physique of distance runners.
The hypothesis again is shaky as a rigid model. Africa has long had hunters of "megafauna". THey are called elephants. Africa peoples from short Pygmies and San, to both short, medium and tall Bantu have always hunted megafauna historically in Africa, right down to today's elephants, who are hunted by tall people routinely.
Likewise if southern populations running down game were confined to the reputed "physique of distance runners" then stocky Bantu like Zulu king Cetaswayo should not exist. He certainly was not built like any "distance runner". Nor do skinny types fit the Zulu ideal of a beautiful woman, who had to be shapely with rounded curves, large breasts and a thick curved buttocks, that was, in the words of one who reported the classical Zulu preference: "firm enough to crack a flea on" (See Zulu War history of R.Edgerton, They FOught Like Lions, for the female specs). That certainly is no skinny Ethiopians distance runner type.
According to the "athletic hypothesis" such people should not exist among the "Bantu", who should look like the theorized spindly East African distance types.
The physical diversity of Africa encompasses a wide range, covering many phenotypical variants, making any rigid "athletic hypothesis" dubious.
Posts: 5906 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
^ Indeed. Typical questionable study based on dubious and easily refutable claims. Sounds like the study was written by a Jared Diamond type. LOL
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
"We also compare Egyptian body proportions to those of modern American Blacks and Whites.
As an American Blacks I'm proud proud that my limb proportions are closer to the Egyptians than American Whites. How can their legs compare to my more Egyptianish legs? AND arms
Sure. And I'm proud of my milky white skin and flaxen hair. LOLPosts: 26311 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] ^ Indeed. Typical questionable study based on dubious and easily refutable claims. Sounds like the study was written by a Jared Diamond type. LOL
if I were to ask you what is incorrect about Jared Diamond's theories you would not be able to formulate your own argument without looking at zarahan's argument or the argument that he borrowed from by that economist.
Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] ^ Indeed. Typical questionable study based on dubious and easily refutable claims. Sounds like the study was written by a Jared Diamond type. LOL
if I were to ask you what is incorrect about Jared Diamond's theories you would not be able to formulate your own argument without looking at zarahan's argument or the argument that he borrowed from by that economist.
Can you post the study, where Trenton Holliday stated the particular argument "you've quoted".
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] ^ Indeed. Typical questionable study based on dubious and easily refutable claims. Sounds like the study was written by a Jared Diamond type. LOL
if I were to ask you what is incorrect about Jared Diamond's theories you would not be able to formulate your own argument without looking at zarahan's argument or the argument that he borrowed from by that economist.
Can you post the study, where Trenton Holliday stated the particular argument "you've quoted".
It was a personal unpublished recent email to ES member Grumman on page 2 of this thread.
Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] ^ Indeed. Typical questionable study based on dubious and easily refutable claims. Sounds like the study was written by a Jared Diamond type. LOL
if I were to ask you what is incorrect about Jared Diamond's theories you would not be able to formulate your own argument without looking at zarahan's argument or the argument that he borrowed from by that economist.
Can you post the study, where Trenton Holliday stated the particular argument "you've quoted".
It was a personal unpublished recent email to ES member Grumman on page 2 of this thread.
Ok, but can you post the link, where Trenton Holliday stated the particular argument "you've quoted".
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
^ Of course the lyinass can't no more than a worm can read or write. Her bad habit of putting words into other persons mouths has caught up to her long ago.
Posts: 26311 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patty: Can you post the study, where Trenton Holliday stated the particular argument "you've quoted". [/qb]
It was a personal unpublished recent email to ES member Grumman on page 2 of this thread. [/qb][/QUOTE]
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patty:Ok, but can you post the link, where Trenton Holliday stated the particular argument "you've quoted".
I told your dumb ass, it is a private letter reply to ES member Grumman who posted the full email to him from Holliday on page 2 of this thread. That is the only link and I trust that Grumman didn't make it up and I think everybody else here would also. Here is the link to the study by Maria Serrata, edited by Nina Jabolinsky that Holliday refered to in his email to Grumman:
^ Of course the lyinass can't no more than a worm can read or write. Her bad habit of putting words into other persons mouths has caught up to her long ago.
what did I tell you about brown nosing?
Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: Can you post the study, where Trenton Holliday stated the particular argument "you've quoted".
It was a personal unpublished recent email to ES member Grumman on page 2 of this thread. [/qb]
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:Ok, but can you post the link, where Trenton Holliday stated the particular argument "you've quoted".
I told your dumb ass, it is a private letter reply to ES member Grumman who posted the full email to him from Holliday on page 2 of this thread. That is the only link and I trust that Grumman didn't make it up and I think everybody else here would also. Here is the link to the study by Maria Serrata, edited by Nina Jabolinsky that Holliday refered to in his email to Grumman:
posted
^^lol Patrol... Africa is noted for its diversity of bone structure so to speak...
By the way, where is your bone x-ray diagram from?
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5906 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
By the way, where is your bone x-ray diagram from?
while Troll P. is fumbling it's from the link on the post where he posted the diagram. (keystone cops)
Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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Sure. And I'm proud of my milky white skin and flaxen hair. LOL
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Her bad habit of putting words into other persons mouths has caught up to her long ago.
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