Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Moderate is not medium. Moderate is relative to extreme.
Manilius wrote that Egyptians have grades of colour varying as does the inundated fields which are nearly black at the Nile lessening in blackness the further inland. Also blackest in the south where the silt is freshest from Abyssinia and less black moving northwards away from Abyssinia and approaching the delta which is at Mid Earth (Medi terran ean) the zone of moderation where black isn't as extreme as in the tropics nor white as extreme as in Hyperborea or Utlima Thule.
Of course a background in Greco-Latin literature is necessary to understand this. So let the fools foam at the mouth in ignorance.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Anyone beyond basic African studies knows the term "Africa" was originally only appled to Tunisia and its hinterland.
Even an idiot knows Mauretania was not the desert. But of course that won't stop those who are full of **** from fouling the unknowing and so once again:
Originally posted October 23, 2011 09:38 PM by alTakruri:
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: Afrorum? @ alTakruri, where'd you get that from, who were they?
Manilius Astromomica 4.728 those between Egypt and Mauretania, including the Aourigha, who were the ones who at first rented land to the Phoenician founders of Carthage. No longer inhabiting that area, the Afer did continue to dwell south of it and far into the desert.
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: From page 1 of this thread, we have:
quote: ..Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore.
Bright (sunny) African and sandy dust of the earth drieth up the people, and the name of Mauritania, a label his mouth bears has the very color.
Besides unintelligible machine "translation" that Wally and Lyin'Arse posted, there are other poor attempts at English translation of the Latin like the one done back in the 17th century. DJ's cumpà, whom you quote, did do a decent job and I'd like to collaborate with him. Meanwhile, here's mine
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: So does Afrorum even refer to a people here? Doesn't really look like it.
The name we use for the continent Africa ultimately derives from a word that entered the Indo-European languages as a borrowing from Punic or the indigenees themselves. Afrorum is the Latin plural of Afer (African), the folk Phoenicians bargained with at what's now far NE Tunisia (see this TNV thread on the Etymology of Africa).
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Look, Lyin' Arse is full **** and knows it. The proof from its very own lying mouth:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
The theory is relating to a location's distance to the equator, the closer to the equator the darker due to higher UV sunlight.
You see a general pattern of this with some exceptions.
So you see it knows and agrees with facts as in Manilius' peoples and color keywords
Lyin' Arse is just trolling for replies revisiting old stuff for new surfers and keeping the ES hit counter ticking. Nothing more. Nothing less.
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quote:Originally posted by the lyinass idiot: you're the only one it fails, normal people can see these people have the same skin tone. It becomes even more obvious when made in black and white.
Correction. Normal people with at least average intelligence can see that Tut with his chocolate complexion is NOT the same as the north Asian men which is not the same as the modern mixed Maghrebi man and modern high-yellow complected African American. And your attempt to black-and-white the photos is another idiotic obfuscation.
quote:You have an unspoken racial theory that certain ethnicities cannot have the same skin tone as Tut. No matter how many times shown otherwise you won't admit it. So even when your theory is disproven so many times, like looking at a naked emerpor, you still insist he wears clothes. This is why you are incapabale of being objective and honest, instead patronizing and True Blacksist. Will Smith according to your concepts is not black. Your cute cartoons and LOL's can't save you
Strawman idiocy. I don't have any racial theories because I don't subscribe to race and I am not stupid enough to believe no two groups cannot share the same complexion. What I'm pointing out is the groups YOU use as examples do NOT! And everyone in here knows it.
You are dismissed as the liar you are and nobody in here takes you seriously, worm. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Moderate is not medium. Moderate is relative to extreme.
Manilius wrote that Egyptians have grades of colour varying as does the inundated fields which are nearly black at the Nile lessening in blackness the further inland. Also blackest in the south where the silt is freshest from Abyssinia and less black moving northwards away from Abyssinia and approaching the delta which is at Mid Earth (Medi terran ean) the zone of moderation where black isn't as extreme as in the tropics nor white as extreme as in Hyperborea or Utlima Thule.
Of course a background in Greco-Latin literature is necessary to understand this. So let the fools foam at the mouth in ignorance.
Correct. Really all Manilius does is elaborate on the world view of his fellow Greco-Romans where the world is roughly divided into northern nations i.e. those above the Mediterranean and southern nations i.e. those below the Mediterranean. Again according to the Greek legend of Phaeton which was later adopted by the Romans when Phaeton nearly crashed the chariot of the sun in the south burning the forests of Africa, Arabia, and India into deserts he also scorched the peoples of these regions black of skin. The problem with lyinass is that she talks right out her namesake without knowing the actual context of the material she speaks. At least Fartheadbonkers who studied the Classics knows as much which is why he kept quiet when I brought up the Phaeton myth which debunks his whole assertion that Egyptians and Indians were not considered 'black' by the Greeks when they obviously were!
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Anyone beyond basic African studies knows the term "Africa" was originally only appled to Tunisia and its hinterland.
Even an idiot knows Mauretania was not the desert. But of course that won't stop those who are full of **** from fouling the unknowing and so once again:
Originally posted October 23, 2011 09:38 PM by alTakruri:
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: Afrorum? @ alTakruri, where'd you get that from, who were they?
Manilius Astromomica 4.728 those between Egypt and Mauretania, including the Aourigha, who were the ones who at first rented land to the Phoenician founders of Carthage. No longer inhabiting that area, the Afer did continue to dwell south of it and far into the desert.
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: From page 1 of this thread, we have:
quote: ..Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore.
Bright (sunny) African and sandy dust of the earth drieth up the people, and the name of Mauritania, a label his mouth bears has the very color.
Besides unintelligible machine "translation" that Wally and Lyin'Arse posted, there are other poor attempts at English translation of the Latin like the one done back in the 17th century. DJ's cumpà, whom you quote, did do a decent job and I'd like to collaborate with him. Meanwhile, here's mine
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: So does Afrorum even refer to a people here? Doesn't really look like it.
The name we use for the continent Africa ultimately derives from a word that entered the Indo-European languages as a borrowing from Punic or the indigenees themselves. Afrorum is the Latin plural of Afer (African), the folk Phoenicians bargained with at what's now far NE Tunisia (see this TNV thread on the Etymology of Africa).
Correct. The Aforum or Afer were a people who lived in the Maghreb in or around Tunisia. So were the Maure-- BOTH were described as adusti (dusky) or tenebri (dark) or nigri (black) the Romans. Yet according to Manilius they were lighter than the Egyptians. This merely meant the Egyptians were even darker/blacker still.
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"Ancient sources also differentiate clearly between people who lived along the coastal areas of northwest Africa (i.e., modern Libya to Morocco) and those who inhabited the interior. "Aethiops," it should be emphasized, with few exceptions, was applied neither to Egyptians nor to inhabitants of northwest Africa, such as Moors, Numidians, or Carthaginians." (Snowden, 1997)
Aethiops/black was not applied to the Egyptians or Libyans. Only the inhabitants of Sub-Sahara Africa. The ancient Greeks did not believe the egyptians were "black" [note though that they are generalizing entire populations which is inaccurate from the start].
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: At least Fartheadbonkers who studied the Classics knows as much which is why he kept quiet when I brought up the Phaeton myth which debunks his whole assertion that Egyptians and Indians were not considered 'black' by the Greeks when they obviously were! [/QB]
I've used this myth to debunk Afrocentrism e.g. Mike's claim the ancient Greeks were "Black", when in actual fact they believed dark skin was a deviation from the original form, or was abnormal.
We are getting into semantics again here. The Indians are not called Aethiops. As Snowden shows, the Aethiops are Negroid (woolly haired, wide nosed, thick lips). The Indians are not reported to have had any of these features by the ancient Greeks. The fact they were described as dark/black doesn't mean they were "Black" (capital)... It's only Afrocentrics who play these word games as their agenda is to lump anyone with dark skin with people with Negroid physiognomy, despite the former lack the latter.
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"Ancient sources also differentiate clearly between people who lived along the coastal areas of northwest Africa (i.e., modern Libya to Morocco) and those who inhabited the interior. "Aethiops," it should be emphasized, with few exceptions, was applied neither to Egyptians nor to inhabitants of northwest Africa, such as Moors, Numidians, or Carthaginians." (Snowden, 1997)
Aethiops/black was not applied to the Egyptians or Libyans. Only the inhabitants of Sub-Sahara Africa. The ancient Greeks did not believe the egyptians were "black" [note though that they are generalizing entire populations which is inaccurate from the start].
1) Were Herodotus, Aristotle, Lucian, et al. Greek. The fool will deny it. Just proof of his invincible ignorance.
2)Snowden is a weak Eurocentric scholar scholar. That book he wrote could be researched in one week. Just a petrified oppositionist to Diop, Van-Sertima, and others. Not to be taken seriously at all. But he will be cited by the ideologically desperate.
3) "Aethiops" is a Greek-derived word and there is no such word in the long history of Ancient Egypt["KMT" before the invading Greeks imposed this new name on the indigenous inhabitants] in the Egyptian lexicon.
4) The term "Aethiopian" is fraught with unknown content and has been subject to much fanciful speculation as to what it means.
posted
^ What's more is that the designation of 'Aethiopia' was originally applied to Canaan in the Levant before it was to Nubia or the lands south of Egypt! Recall the Andromeda myth.
I've used this myth to debunk Afrocentrism e.g. Mike's claim the ancient Greeks were "Black", when in actual fact they believed dark skin was a deviation from the original form, or was abnormal.
We are getting into semantics again here. The Indians are not called Aethiops. As Snowden shows, the Aethiops are Negroid (woolly haired, wide nosed, thick lips). The Indians are not reported to have had any of these features by the ancient Greeks. The fact they were described as dark/black doesn't mean they were "Black" (capital)... It's only Afrocentrics who play these word games as their agenda is to lump anyone with dark skin with people with Negroid physiognomy, despite the former lack the latter.
WRONG again.
The Egyptians were indeed described as black and were constantly grouped with Ethiopians. How many times must I repeat the examples already cited in this thread?
Also, Indians, specifically southern Indians, were called eastern Aethiopes by the Greeks in distinction from the Western Aethiopes of Africa.
Therefore either you are a f*cking liar or a f*cking retard who knows not his own field of study-- 'Classics'. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
"If we accept the ordinary identification of the Negro on the basis of color of the skin, shape of the nose, and quality of the hair it is certain that the Greeks were well acquainted with the racial type which anthropologists designate today as Negroid.
In view of the Greek usage of the word Aethiops (Ethiopian) it is safe to assume that a given passage refers to a Negro in the following instances:
1. Whenever a passage mentions two or more of the physical characteristics accepted by modern anthropologists.
2. Whenever the word Aethiops is used in conjunction with one or more of the physical characteristics accepted by modern anthropologists.
3. Whenever contextual or other evidence indicates that Aethiops, even in the absence of any other racial characteristic, refers to a Negroid type.
Rather detailed classifications of an anthropological type answering to the Negroid type appear in several Greek authors."
- Snowden
The eastern ethiops are not Negroid. They are described as having straight hair, and not flat/wide noses.
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The eastern ethiops are not Negroid. They are described as having straight hair, and not flat/wide noses. [/QB]
I'm not certain as to the explanation but Ethiopia has some highland areas considered temperate so that it is possible that traits you consider not Negroid could have evolved in Africa entirely and possible even before places outside of Africa were even populated at all. The situation is complicated by the fact that Ethiopia also has a border coastal to the red sea where foreigners came in and out so it is hard to sort that out
Arrian (Indica 6.9) on Egyptians:
The appearance of the inhabitants is also not very different in India and Ethiopia: the southern Indians are rather more like Ethiopians as they are black to look on, and their hair is black; only they are not so snub-nosed or woolly-haired as the Ethiopians; the northern Indians are most like the Egyptians physically.Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by lamin: That translation from Manilius is problematic in parts.
Consider: "Aethiopes maculant orbem tenebrisque figurant perfusas hominum gentes".
The meaning of this is that Aethiopians--i.e. Africans who live far away from Roman Egypt--live in world unknown to others--i.e. in a world of darkness.
The Latin verb "maculo--maculare" also means to taint, or to spot. Thus the proper translation is something like: "The Ethiopians taint the world because they live in an [unknown] world--a dark world.
"Populos" does not translate into the Eurocentric "tribe" at all. "Populos" means "people". The Latin word for "tribe" is "tribus".
We bear in mind too that Manilius was writing about Roman Egypt--not KMT.
I absolutely agree about tenebrisque. It applies to orbem not Aethiopes who have the staining factor drenching humanity in the ultimate of dark complexions.
code:
Aethiopes maculant orbem tenebrisque figurant perfusas hominum gentes; Ethiopians they stains the orb deeply dark they form drenched humanity
Ethiopians stain the orb deeply dark drenching humanity's forms.
This explicitly posits all others mating Aethiopes breed children undeniable as Aethiop offspring.
This is how they stain --as in wood staining, a beautifying agent-- the world deeply drenching other lesser dark human forms when intermarrying.
Another thing you mention I agree to is the lost meaning of Aithiop. Burnt face is only a best guess.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Who has any idea what a cline is? At one end is the quantified extreme. At the other is its least expression.
No discrete abutted monocolor blocks. That would be a clineless bar graph.
I don't take Manilius to mean India had no one of Aethiopian darkness or vice versa but that there is always some interlap with some exclusion.
A cluster approach showing overlap
as best my tool allows no egg shape ovals or slanted ovals and no ovals I did make are absolute just a visual way to perceive Manilius' data.
Notice the Mauretania and Afrorum ovals and the delta part of the Egypt oval can be seen as a southern side of Mid-Earth cluster.
The Indian oval shows the Greco-Latin notion of south India like Aethiopia and north India like Egypt in complexion.
Overlap of Aethiopia and Egypt ovals reflects known settlement of "Nubians" in Egypt and Egyptians in Kerma.
One cluster including all the ovals would be the Tropical-MidEarth or dark/black section 4.724-4.730 of Manilius.
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Arrian was of Greek background and was born during Roman times somewhere in Turkey. I doubt he ever traveled to Egypt.
In any case KMT whose name was changed to Egypt by Greek invaders had already ceased to exist for 600 years--longer than the Spanish occupation of Mexico. After 600 years with multitudes of settlers into Egypt the population structure of Egypt began to change.
When describing population structures you should pay attention to dates of invasions, etc.
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The appearance of the inhabitants is also not very different in India and Ethiopia: the southern Indians are rather more like Ethiopians as they are black to look on, and their hair is black; only they are not so snub-nosed or woolly-haired as the Ethiopians; the northern Indians are most like the Egyptians physically.
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Arrian (Indica 6.9) on Egyptians:
Arrian was of Greek background and was born during Roman times somewhere in Turkey. I doubt he ever traveled to Egypt.
In any case KMT whose name was changed to Egypt by Greek invaders had already ceased to exist for 600 years--longer than the Spanish occupation of Mexico. After 600 years with multitudes of settlers into Egypt the population structure of Egypt began to change.
When describing population structures you should pay attention to dates of invasions, etc.
But the Ethiopians from the sun’s risings up-for two kinds indeed were advancing with the army-were assigned to the Indians and were differing in no looks from the others except in speech and hair only; for the Ethiopians from the sun’s direction are straight-haired and those from Libya have the wooliest hair of all human beings.
-Inquiries by Herodotus Book 7
some in the forum are of the opinion that wavy straight hair and narrow noses are indigenous to Africa and that some of the ancient Egyptians had wavy straight hair and narrow noses. An example of this is Swenet's thread called:
Is Kmtian wavy and straight hair the only trait not shared with Ancient Nubians?
There he posted 1907-1908 documenation of ancient Nubians remains having various type of hair lncluding hair described as curly, straight (inluding going back to predynatsic times) and "Negro peppercorn" . There's also the Semna study
many threads have been made arguing that narrower noses and straightish-esque hair are indigenous to Africa in places like , the Horn and North Africa. I think it would be fair to say Swenet, Deshiti, Jari and alTurki 'the Pompous Sage' are in this camp
I'm not certain about these issues, there can be various causation possibilities. lioness productions all day
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posted
When Napoleon invaded Egypt a number of French archaeologists were free to enter Egypt. Denon, Volney, Champollion, and others peered over thousands of murals, sculptures, hieroglyphs, etc. Since they had no idea that Africans would later read what they wrote and surmised it is interesting to note that they generally came to the conclusion that the AEs were indigenous blacks("negres" was their term). Once Africans started reading what these Frenchmen wrote racial anxieties set in and voila--we have the ongoing face-saving debates.
Africa is a vast continent--some 20-25% of the world's land mass, so any physiognomic trait can evolve there once allowed by the environment.
The Australian aboriginese who never evolved in a temperate climate had straight/wavy hair. The extinct Tasmans had curly hair, so too the the inhabitants of the Melanisian islands--as distinct from the Polynesian islands where South East Asians and Africans intermingled.
My point is that hair forms, labial forms, nasal forms, body forms, eye forms(as in the case of the Khoisan) can vary much in Africa once adaptable to the environment.
In some cases particular traits confer no biological advantage or disadvantage and just exist because of intra-isolate matings.
What individuals should note is Nature does not recognise human intellectual constructions such as "continents" and the like.
For living phenomena the key issue is ease of entry and exit for a particular area. So can traits such as straight hair, narrow noses, epicanthic folds exist in Africa? The answer is that if such traits can exist in similar and cognate ecological climes then they can just as easily exist indigenously on the African continent.
When environments are isolated as in the case of islands new and specialised forms of flora and fauna can emerge--as in the case of places like Madagascar, New Zealand, and Australia.
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quote:When Napoleon invaded Egypt a number of French archaeologists were free to enter Egypt. Denon, Volney, Champollion, and others peered over thousands of murals, sculptures, hieroglyphs, etc. Since they had no idea that Africans would later read what they wrote and surmised it is interesting to note that they generally came to the conclusion that the AEs were indigenous blacks
"The art of ancient Egypt frequently painted Egyptian men as reddish brown, women as yellow, and people to the south as black... [A]s the Egyptologist David O'Connor has pointed out, "Thousands of sculpted and painted representatives from Egypt as well as hundreds of well preserved bodies from its cemeteries show that the typical physical type was neither Negro nor Negroid." (Snowden, 1997)
Is this meant to be a "Black" woman?
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posted
Fool, have you ever taken a course in statistics? "Outliers" are just that---totally away from the norm but they exist. Since you have never studies statistics you would not that.
Why do you post the plump face of some Asiatic border-jumper into the promised land of KMT as being a bonafide woman from KMT?
The chubby faced courtesan you post is not an African woman. LOL. What else?
Sani Abacha, late President of Nigeria used to have Indian whores up in his chambers to keep him relaxed. Same with the Egyptians. You truck in some harlots from West Asia for tea and comfort.
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posted
No this whole stupid thread is a bait thread as we already proved your stupid ranting as being wrong. Manilius saw the Egyptians as part of a cline of Black people. No Roman/Greek writer would have given the inhabitants of Egypt their "Moderate white-tan" Tone of the Greeks and Romans Meddish Climate unless they lived in the Delta and were mixed with Immigrants from Southern Europe.
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quote:Just because they were called black does'nt mean they were black..
It's all comic relief. Some laughter for a slow day. This guy is a character straight out of "Alice in Wonderland". He should stay. Just comic fodder for the troops.
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posted
Reverse the Afrocentric Trojan horse, and 'whites' become the most physically diverse on the planet.
'white people':
- 'whites' have the most diverse features in the world. See now they have epicanthic fold, facial flatness, wooly, jet straight black hair, and wider noses. 'whites' are the original humans [just look above they have all phyical features] since they have the most physical diversity, 'black' must have evolved off them.
Remember all the people above are 'white' according to Afrocentric logic.
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posted
^ Again with the stupid strawmen and presumptuous lies. You are getting worse than Lyinass.
quote:Originally posted by Fartheadbonkers: "The art of ancient Egypt frequently painted Egyptian men as reddish brown, women as yellow, and people to the south as black... [A]s the Egyptologist David O'Connor has pointed out, "Thousands of sculpted and painted representatives from Egypt as well as hundreds of well preserved bodies from its cemeteries show that the typical physical type was neither Negro nor Negroid." (Snowden, 1997)
Again, you keep citing Snowden on matters of physical anthropology when his expertise is 'Classics'! Not only is this logical fallacy an 'appeal to authority' but an appeal to the WRONG authority! LOL
But since you bring up Egyptian art color scheme here is what an actual Egyptologist has to say about the subject.
Thus,the gender distinction encoded for human figures was transferred at times to the divide world. The symbolism inherent in the skin colors used for some deities and royal figures suggest that the colors given to human skin---although initially seeming to be naturalistic -----might also be symbolic. Male and female skin colors were probably not uniform among the entire population of Egypt, with pigmentation being darker in the south[closer to sub-sahara Africans] and lighter in the north [closer to Mediterranean Near Easteners] A woman from the south would probably have had darker skin than a man from the North. Thus, the colorations used for skin tones in the art must have been schematic [or symbolic] rather than realistic; the clear gender distinction encoded in that scheme may have been based on elite ideals relating to male and female roles, in which women's responsibilities kept them indoors,so that they spent less time in the sun than men.Nevertheless, the significance of the two colors may be even deeper,making some as yet unknown but fundamental difference between men and women in Egyptian worldview by Gay Robins
The Ancient God Speak: A Guide to Egyptian Religion edited by Donald Redford
By the way, we know Robins is wrong about Egyptian women staying indoors since both common and elite women are usually painted yellow even though common women worked outdoors and elite women partook in outdoor recreation along with their men.
quote:
Is this meant to be a "Black" woman?
Well her features sure don't look 'Caucasian'. Also it is evident that the original paint was in the symbolic yellow color NOT the pallor white that is left from erosion.
But if you discuss real anthropological data here is some from Schute who studied pharaonic remains with Robins:
"It can be seen that all the pharonic values, including those of 'Smakhare', lie much closer to the negro curve than to the white curve. Since stature equations only work satisfactorily in the individuals to whom they have applied have similar proportions to the population group from which they are derived, this provides justification for using negro equations for estimating stature from single bones of the New Kingdom pharoahs, renforcing the previous findings of Robins (1983). Furthermore, the Troller and Gleser white equations for the femur, tibia and humerus yield stature values that have a much wider spread than those from negro equations with mean values that are unacceptably large."
--Robins and Schute. The Physical Proportions and Stature of New Kingdom Pharaohs," Journal of Human Evolution 12 (1983), 455-465
"Estimates of living stature, based on X-ray measurements applied to the Trotter & Gleser (1958) negro equations for the femur, tibia and humerus, have been made for ancient Egyptian kings belonging to the 18th and 19th dynasties. The corresponding equations for whites give values for stature that are unsatisfactorily high. The view that Thutmose III was excessively short is proved to be a myth. It is shown that the limbs of the pharaohs, like those of other Ancient Egyptians, had negroid characteristics, in that the distal segments were relatively long in comparison with the proximal segments. An exception was Ramesses II, who appears to have had short legs below the knees."
--Robins and Schute. The Physical Proportions and Stature of New Kingdom Pharaohs," Journal of Human Evolution 12 (1983), 455-465
"Robins (1983) and Robins & Shute (1983) have shown that more consistent results are obtained from ancient Egyptian male skeletons if Trotter & Gleser formulae for negro are used, rather than those for whites which have always been applied in the past. .. their physical proportions were more like modern negroes than those of modern whites, with limbs that were relatively long compared with the trunk, and distal segments that were long compared with the proximal segments. If ancient Egyptian males had what may be termed negroid proportions, it seems reasonable that females did likewise." From: (Robins G, Shute CCD. 1986. Predynastic Egyptian stature and physical proportions. Hum Evol 1:313–324. Ruff CB. 1994.)
Sorry Euronut. YOU LOSE
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by the lyinass: in psychology they call it projection
Indeed. This is when someone projects or puts off their own neuroses onto others. In YOUR case, you project your own ridiculous notions of 'race' or color onto Manilius when you suggest the "medium" hue of the Egyptians is that of the people in your photoshop collage below!
LOLPosts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: [qb] Arrian (Indica 6.9) on Egyptians:
Arrian was of Greek background and was born during Roman times somewhere in Turkey. I doubt he ever traveled to Egypt.
In any case KMT whose name was changed to Egypt by Greek invaders had already ceased to exist for 600 years--longer than the Spanish occupation of Mexico. After 600 years with multitudes of settlers into Egypt the population structure of Egypt began to change.
When describing population structures you should pay attention to dates of invasions, etc.
Arrian (Indica 6.9) on Egyptians:
The appearance of the inhabitants is also not very different in India and Ethiopia: the southern Indians are rather more like Ethiopians as they are black to look on, and their hair is black; only they are not so snub-nosed or woolly-haired as the Ethiopians; the northern Indians are most like the Egyptians physically.
But the Ethiopians from the sun’s risings up-for two kinds indeed were advancing with the army-were assigned to the Indians and were differing in no looks from the others except in speech and hair only; for the Ethiopians from the sun’s direction are straight-haired and those from Libya have the wooliest hair of all human beings.
-Inquiries by Herodotus Book 7
some in the forum are of the opinion that wavy straight hair and narrow noses are indigenous to Africa and that some of the ancient Egyptians had wavy straight hair and narrow noses. An example of this is Swenet's thread called:
Is Kmtian wavy and straight hair the only trait not shared with Ancient Nubians?
There he posted 1907-1908 documenation of ancient Nubians remains having various type of hair lncluding hair described as curly, straight (inluding going back to predynatsic times) and "Negro peppercorn" . There's also the Semna study
many threads have been made arguing that narrower noses and straightish-esque hair are indigenous to Africa in places like , the Horn and North Africa. I think it would be fair to say Swenet, Deshiti, Jari and alTurki 'the Pompous Sage' are in this camp
I'm not certain about these issues, there can be various causation possibilities. lyinass productions all day
LOL Indeed your lyinass produces sh*t all day. Arrian makes it clear the main difference between Indians and Libyans (Africans) is that the former had straighter hair while the latter had woolier hair. Libyans also included Egyptians, you dummy! Arrian clearly stated that northern Indians looked very similar to Egyptians except in speech and HAIR, because Egyptians had wooly hair while Indians had straighter hair. The same comparison he makes with Ethiopians proper (of Libya) and then eastern Ethiopians (that of southern India)! By the way, the wavy hair of some Egyptians and Nubians is not the same as the long straighter hair of Indians.
From Herdotus' Histories: The Persian Wars All the tribes (northern Indians) which I have mentioned live together like the brute beasts: they have also all the same tint of skin, which approaches that of the Ethiopians. Their country is a long way from Persia towards the south, nor had king Darius ever any authority over them.
So you see the distinction between Ethiopian (southern Nile Valley) and Egyptian (north Nile Valley) was the same as Eastern Ethiopian (south Indian) and Indian (Indus Valley/north Indian). Where Ethiopians were very black while those to there north not as much but still approached them in color!
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That is not projecting it's showing that the skin tone as indicated by Manilius can be found in many places from the Near East to Central Asia and the Americas. What is project is assuming extra categories that are not in the translation and making self conceived charts that are not in the text
You attempt to limit 'black' as per Manilius and suggest he goes beyond skin color and limits to only specific ethnicties he mentions for reasons other than skin color, a person who had a similar skin tone to an Egyptian or Maure would not have a similar skin tone to an Egyptian or Maure because they they are not from a region that he specifically mentioned. You are attempting to racialize what he said and assume that he limited 'black' to not only dark skinned persons but dark skinned persons only of a certain ethnicity, basically Africans only American definition but since he mentioned Indians we have to throw them in and the fact that they are supposedly darkeer than Egyptians compensates for there other unspoken deficits. A Kurd region person for example could not have the skin tone of an Egyptian or Maure for the sole reason that Manilius mentioned Indians but he didn't mention the region in particular where the people we call Kurds today live. That is why you are so narrow and robotic, dishonest actually, trying to patronize black folk with a less than objective eye. And ironic the idea we need Greeks and Romans for definitions, that that is some kind of yardstick or approval for Africanists. And if setting up these Greco Roman authors this way other parts of Africa would not be considered black because in the quote so and son Greek or Roman didn't specifically mention said peoples as qualifying in the ethnic black list. And is notable these authors don't use this stand alone color identity 'blacks' as Americans do. They might say someone has black skin but they don't call them 'a black'
Anybody can read the Manilius and see how people like the below Kirgiz Turk and Inuit do indeed fit into the range of who Manilius if looking at them would say that their skin tone is black and within the range he outlined, a range where the Maure (BLACK) people are at lightest end of a graded spectrum of dark skinned people.
I'm sure Tukuler will take the fifth but if he had to give an honest answer I would bet money that he would not say the above persons do not fall within the range of dark skinned people that Manilius mentions begining with Ethiopians and ending with Maure (later: Moors). And that is beyond obvious in considering these persons and other examples
Anybody who doesn't admit to it is a believer in racial concepts. That is why you're afrocentrics, you are trying to correct by reversing and intentional omission
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Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris 728 exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore.
G.P. Goold translation
The Sun-God dries up with dust the tribes of Africans amid their desert lands; the Moors derive their name from their faces, and their identity is proclaimed by the colour of their skins.
Literal translation is similar> ________________________________________
LITERAL TRANSLATION
Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris Sun-God sandy African dust lands exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen dries up the people, and the name of Mauritania oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore. expressed has title brought itself color
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Similar to the Goold it says the Sun God of the sandy African lands dries up the people and the name Mauritania expresses it's color
As we can see in AlTurki 2005 he has bolded the 4 regions mentioned below, no problem:
-but these days he has pulled a fast one:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: 2012
In Manilius' order black complexions from the most dark to the least dark are - Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania
he as added "Afrorum" which means African as a separate category of person. Now instead of 4 categories as per the bolded he lists 5 in this newer quote
He claims that the Roman Africa at the time only referred Tunisa. Manilius was born in the 1st century AD What the Romans called Africa changed in various periods:
^^^ As you can see changing terminology. As we know the Roman province Mauretania spelled with an 'e' after 'r' is not in the same location as modern day Mauritania spelled with an 'i' and in the ancient period it's borders change as well as what is called 'Africa". Roman "Africa" was expanded in 46 AD.
Without getting bogged down it what was called what when the point is that in the Manilius the Mauretanians are described as Africans. "Afrorum" is not a people separte from the Mauretanians. It's one and the same. Goold confirms this, the literal transaltion confirms this and alTurki 2005 confirms this as per the text he bolded above
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Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris Sun-God sandy African dust lands exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen dries up the people, and the name of Mauritania oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore. expressed has title brought itself color _________________________________________________
lioness productions 2013 commander C
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I honestly don't understand how he even gets attention at this point, its almost like he's trolling now.
quote:Originally posted by lamin:
quote:Just because they were called black does'nt mean they were black..
It's all comic relief. Some laughter for a slow day. This guy is a character straight out of "Alice in Wonderland". He should stay. Just comic fodder for the troops.
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What the f-ck matter does it make if you have some asiatic barbarian who's skin matches that of Indigenous Africans, You can Find Africans in every region of the Continent with Skin tone of the Egyptians Yet you want to spam some F-king Kurd or Arab as if they had anything to do with Egypt or any African civilization.
Like I asked you on another thread, show me a scrap of Archeological evidence that has Europeans or Asiatics involved in Km.t outside of the average Slave Raid, Concubine, Subject Tribute Nation or Immigrant. We already know where the Egyptians came from, they had nothing to do with your Indo-European Ancestors.
Why does'nt your lot spend all the Energy and time you do on the Hitites, your own Indo-Euro culture. Why do you want to steal African Culture. You Jealous..??
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: That is why you're afrocentrics, you are trying to correct by reversing and intentional omission
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Just call me Jari claims Septimus was "Black":
So by the same logic these are "white":
Are you at least going to be consistent? If Septimus is "Black", these are "White" people.
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^^^ You should lead the way and consider white and black skin color only. Lets see you post on metapedia doing that
yet you still attach them to your Caucasoid and Negroid concepts, Practice what you preach for the sake of clarity
As per your terminology you should realize some Egyptians were "Negroids". But do you have the honesty to admit it or are you just a propagandist?
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Other Quotes the Lyin-ass avoids like the plague..
quote:Herodotus: "..Still the Egyptians said that they believed the Colchians to be descended from the army of Sesostris. My own conjectures were founded, first, on the fact that they are black-skinned and have woolly hair, which certainly amounts to but little, since several other nations are so too. But further and more especially, on the circumstance that the Colchians, the Egyptians, and the Ethiopians, are the only nations who have practised circumcision from the earliest times..."
(-Herodotus The Histories, Book 2:104)
quote:"...the men of Egypt are mostly brown or black with a skinny desiccated look."
(Ammianus Marcellinus, Book XXII para 16)
quote:Those who are very black are cowards as, for example, the Egyptians and Ethiopians. But the excessively white ones also are cowards, as we can see, for the example, in the women; the coloration of the courage is between the black and the white.
ARISTÓTELES. Fisionomia
quote:Why are the Ethiopians and Egyptians bandy-legged? Is it because of that the body of itself creates, because of disturbance by heat, like loss of wood when they become dry? The condition of their hair supports his theory; for it is curlier than that of other nations..."
(Aristotle, _Problemata_ 909, 7)
quote: Lycinus (describing an Egyptian): 'this boy is not merely black; he has thick lips and his legs are too thin...his hair worn in a plait shows that he is not a freeman.'
Timolaus: 'but that is a sign of really distinguished birth in Egypt, Lycinus. All freeborn children plait their hair until they reach manhood...'
(Lucian, _Navigations_, paras 2-3)
Dialogue:
quote:"Aegyptos conquered the country of the black-footed ones and called it Egypt after himself
(Apollodorus, Book II, paras 3 and 4)
quote:Danaos (describing the Aegyptiads): 'I can see the crew with their black limbs and white tunics.'
(Aeschylus, _The Suppliants_, vv. 719-20, 745)
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: That is why you're afrocentrics, you are trying to correct by reversing and intentional omission
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-Zanj, Ethiopians, the people of Fazzan, the Berbers, the Copts, and Nubians, the people of Zaghawa, Marw, Sind and India, Qamar and Dabila, China, and Masin... the islands in the seas between China and Africa are full of blacks, such as Ceylon, Kalah, Amal, Zabij, and their islands, as far as India, China, Kabul, and those shores.-Al Jahiz(Describing the black Nations funny how he makes a similar report like that of Manilius and other Romans whom the Arabs took their Climate science from)
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"الله الله في أهل الذمة، أهل المدرة السوداء السحم الجعاد ، فإن لهم نسبا وصهرا "
"Fear Allah - Fear Allah concerning the black-skinned, kinky-haired People of the Black Soil (People of Kemet) who are under your protection! Verily they are your relatives."
الله الله في أهل الذمة ، أهل المدرة السوداء السحم الجعاد فإن لهم نسبا وصهرا - in the Seerat of ibn hisham vol.1
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quote:The black people will come out of Egypt, Kush will stretch its hands to God"
quote:Rabbi Yuda ben Simon in a Midrashic text: Abraham says to his wife Sarah, "Now we are about to enter a place (Egypt) of ugly and black people"
-The Jewish Midrash
Depiction of Egyptians by the Greeks/Romans
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: [QB] Just so we don't get it twisted, the Greek vases with black colored characters don't show ethnic blacks in most cases. It's just a style called "black figure."
In the case of mythological Herakles, he was of known African ancestry per the mythos.
quote:[i] the Greeks, however (those I mean who gave the son of Amphitryon that name), took the name from the Egyptians, and not the Egyptians from the Greeks, is I think clearly proved, among other arguments, by the fact that both the parents of Heracles, Amphitryon as well as Alcmena, were of Egyptian origin.
Herodotus Histories 2.48
Unlike the hydrias in an earlier post, there are examples which do depict ethnic blacks.
________ AMASIS ____________________________ KIRKE DRUGGING ODYSSEUS
More Images of King Busiris and Nile Valley Africans..
Kantharos (cup) of Herakles and African man (possibly Egyptian King Busiris); Greek, Attic; circa 470 BCE; terracotta
The Pharaoh as portrayed in Phoenician art...
From Jordan
Like I said this Manilus subject has been debunked along time ago, but stupid is as stupid does. Yet the Lyin ass Still trying after all these years, getting her arse handed to her time and time again...
Now..
shut this stupid ass thread down...let the lyin'ass lick her wounded carcass...
Then his majesty prevailed against them at the head of his army, and when they saw his majesty prevailing against them they fled headlong to Megiddo in fear, abandoning their horses and their chariots of gold and silver. The people hauled them up, pulling them by their clothingPosts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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chapter 16 Of the five provinces of Egypt and their famous cities. at right the page # 297-309
" Now the men of Egypt are, as a rule, somewhat swarthy and dark of complexion, and rather gloomy-looking,268 slender and hardy, excitable in all their movements, quarrelsome, and most persistent duns. "
line 23, p 309
Ammianus Marcellinus. With An English Translation. John C. Rolfe, Ph.D., Litt.D. Cambridge. Cambridge, Mass., Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann, Ltd. 1935-1940.
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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chapter 16 Of the five provinces of Egypt and their famous cities. at right the page # 297-309
" Now the men of Egypt are, as a rule, somewhat swarthy and dark of complexion, and rather gloomy-looking,268 slender and hardy, excitable in all their movements, quarrelsome, and most persistent duns. "
line 23, p 309
Actually the correct translation is just gloomy, I posted this 3 years back. There is no mention of skin colour in the original. The egyptians are described as gloomy which has nothing to do with their skin hue.
The quote from Lucian is also invalid, he's describing a slave.
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quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: I realize this could be said for the vast majority of the discussions we hold here, but I will say it anyway:
Given this, why are we still arguing over the proper definition of black skin or the Negroid race? All that should be invalid at this point.
^^^The big problem with this is that modern Egyptians are lumped as "Levantines" Further because the study was about Egyptians, Egypt should have broken down into Copt, Muslim, Siwa etc. It's not very useful. One wonders if it was a marketing plan to AAs. -although there is a strong African component
^^^Greek black figure pottery. Do we assume this represents skin color of the Greeks? The terms "red figure" and "black figure" pottery, look it up
^^^the identities of these are specualted, Experts are not sure about who they are -need better back up follow through, emotion showing. African man at left obviously
.
The madness of Heracles, side A of the so-called “Madrid Krater”. Paestan red-figure calyx-krater, ca. 340 BC. From Salerno, Campania.
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Jari great pictures of Egyptian and Greeks.A picture is worth a thousand words.The beautiful vase showing brown Greek Herakles beating the black and brown Egyptian is one of the greatest proof that the Egyptian were black people.The cup showing the head of black Egyptian King Busiris and metis Heracles is another proof of black Egypt.Even Byzantine Icon show the Egyptian as blue meaning the blue aka black blood of the Egyptian.
The Bible describe the Egyptian, Kushite, Canaanite and Puntite as black people aka son of Ham/Kam.
Arab writers Mas Udi and Al Jahiz described the Egyptian as black in their books.
posted
one of our premier picture spammers in on the loose trying to get off the subject of Manilius
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