The REAL face of King Tut: Pharaoh had girlish hips, a club foot and buck teeth according to 'virtual autopsy' that also revealed his parents were brother and sister
*** Make sure to put in a comment in the comments section at the ende of the article
BBC says " For the first time, a virtual autopsy of Tut's mummified body reveals astonishing secrets about the pharaoh. Using CT scan data, the programme creates the first ever full size, scientifically accurate image of the real Tutankhamun."
The " virtual autopsy" was done by the London-based Egypt Exploration Society. I'm not clear if they are also responsible for the reconstruction or if that part is BBC only
posted
It's pretty obvious that you can't get skin color from a skeleton. The relative size of the hip bone is as far you can go with a skeleton.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: It's pretty obvious that you can't get skin color from a skeleton. The relative size of the hip bone is as far you can go with a skeleton.
plsease explain how the hip bone would relate to skin color
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: It's pretty obvious that you can't get skin color from a skeleton. The relative size of the hip bone is as far you can go with a skeleton.
plsease explain how the hip bone would relate to skin color
It doesn't. That's my point.
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quote: It's pretty obvious that you can't get skin color from a skeleton.
Not an exact shade, but limb lengths and cranial morphology can help you intuit what would be a more reasonable range.
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It's funny. The only thing 'white' about this reconstruction is the complexion, yet one can look at the features of the face and see it is rather very un-European looking.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Actually the above reconstruction was commisioned by British scientists but was actually done by U.S. scientists who were double-blinded (they had no idea whose skull cast they were working with). Their results were then aired on the 2005 Discovery Channel program 'Who Killed King Tut'.
What makes the above reconstruction unique is that I believe it was the ONLY one done by scientists who were double-blinded and therefore unbiased. Their conclusions were that the skull belonged to someone of African descent though I still think they were biased in that they gave him a wider nose tip under the stereotype that Africans have wide noses.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: It's funny. The only thing 'white' about this reconstruction is the complexion, yet one can look at the features of the face and see it is rather very un-European looking.
^^This guy routinely defines "black" and "white" as referring to skin color only.
Now he says " The only thing 'white' about this reconstruction is the complexion, yet one can look at the features of the face"
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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The Lioness is clear about not calling her Lyin'Ass. Don't do it.
You disrespect ME when you continue name-calling after I asked you to cease.
Babysitting adults? Is that what I'm here for? Since you're forcing me to babysit I will go to extremes.
If you continue I will disrespect you just as you disrespect me, and disrespect this forum and its responsible members who wish you'd grow up, by DELETING ALL YOUR POSTS.
Your outstanding posts don't give you carte blanche to eff over me.
Now go ahead. Try me.
Be glad this is the 'net where The Lioness can't take a straight razor to your mouth.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Anyone who escalates things by taking it on themself to retaliate instead of refer the matter to moderator will also find ALL THEIR POSTS DELETED.
If I am to be moderator I will not allow people to run over me.
RESPECT ME and my 'job' AS I RESPECT YOU and your requests.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote: Actually the above reconstruction was commisioned by British scientists but was actually done by U.S. scientists who were double-blinded (they had no idea whose skull cast they were working with). Their results were then aired on the 2005 Discovery Channel program 'Who Killed King Tut'.
What makes the above reconstruction unique is that I believe it was the ONLY one done by scientists who were double-blinded and therefore unbiased. Their conclusions were that the skull belonged to someone of African descent though I still think they were biased in that they gave him a wider nose tip under the stereotype that Africans have wide noses.
I haven't seen the Discovery Channel Program - it's interesting that they specifically said that the skull belonged to someone of African descent. From memory, Susan Anton also mentioned this in her e-mail to an ES member regarding the 2006 Tut model.
Do you also remember whether in Who Killed King Tut? they explained that the cast of the skull was made in the 80s based on x-rays from the 60's?
I wondered about the nose thing, although it's interesting that the face is a composition of averages from an 'appropriate' ethnic group.
"We scan the faces of a number of people the same age, sex and an appropriate ethnic group, so that we've got a suitable average face to start the warping process from. Robin Richards"
posted
PHARAOH TUTANKAMUN WAS A KALENJIN In africa kalenjin and kikuyu are known for their buck teeth,ask every kenyan,they will tell you its like every kalenjin has a bucktooth,protruding upper incisors. tuts name is kalenjin in origin. TUTANKAMUN=TUTEN-KHA-AMUN,the word TUTEN in kalenjin means 'little',the word KA or KHA in kalenjin means 'house/dwelling place',AMUN in kalenjin means 'because',AMUNE in kalenjin is greetings 'how are you'.AMONI is a kalenjin deity also called CHEBO-AMONI meaning 'daughter of Amoni'. Hence tuts name in kalenjin means; 1)TUTEN-KA-AMUN meaning 'little house of Amoni'. OR 2)TATANEN-KHA-AMUN,meaning 'unshaken/firm house of amun'.in kalenjin TATANEN means firm/unshaken. BUCK TOOTH IS A KALENJIN TRAIT James Harris and Edward Wente conducted an x-ray analysis of the New Kingdom royal mummies with the results published in their book X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980). Included in the work were cephalograms of Pharaohs of the XVII-XX Dynasties and their queens.
Harris and Wente note the prevalence of dental prognathism among Nubians. Often this is combined with malocclusion. Similar incidence can be found in other African peoples. For example, one study found that a sample taken from the Kenya showed 61.3% of Maasai had diastema; 84% of Kikuyu had overbite and 99% had overjet; and 24% of Kalenjin had anterior open bite.( J. Hassanali, GP Pokhariyal, "Anterior tooth relations in Kenyan Africans, Archives of Oral Biology 38 [Apr 1993] 337-42).
Although these dental traits can often be acquired through habits like thumb-sucking, as noted by Harris and Wente, the high frequency in the royal mummies indicates a genetic origin as found in Africans.
Some standards that we will use in describing the x-ray diagrams (lateral view) of the royal mummies are now given:
WM Krogman (The Human Skeleton in Forensic Medicine)
Father: Seqenenre Tao II or Kamose, Mother: Queen Ahhotep I or Queen Ahhotep II Strongly proclined incisors. Rounded forehead, sagittal flattening; rounded occiput. Somewhat forward zygomatic arches; pronounced alveolar prognathism. Steep mandible with squat ramus and receding chin.
Amenhotep I
Father: Ahmose, Mother: Ahmes-Nefertary Rounded glabella, sloping forehead, sagittal plateau, rounded occiput. Zygomatic arches project forward. Moderate protrusion of upper incisors and pronounced prognathism. Receding chin and steeply inclined mandible.
Queen Meryetamon
Father: Ahmose, Mother: Ahmes-Nefertary Queen of Amenhotep I. Rounded occiput and forehead, sagittal plateau. Glabella is weak, but there is sexual dimorphism in this feature. Zygomatic arch is slightly forward. Pronounced protrusion of incisors and high ANB causing overbite. Mandible is moderately inclined and ramus is squat. Strong prognathism.
Thutmose I
Father:?, Mother: Senisoneb Globular skull with high vault; rounded forehead; sagittal plateau; rounded, bulging occiput; weakly manifested glabella; vertical zygomatic arches. Strongly proclined upper and lower incisors; sharply receding chin and angled mandible. Squat ramus and pronounced prognathism.
Thutmose II
Father: Thutmose I, Mother: Queen Mutnofret Rounded glabella and forehead; high vault with sagittal plateau. Rounded occiput. Strongly proclined upper and lower incisors; receding, vertical chin; highly angular mandible. Vertical zygomatic arches and maxillary prognathism.
Thutmose II displays the globular cranium common among more recent Nubians.
TUTANKAMUN LOOKED LIKE THESE TWO KENYANS John kagwe is a kikuyu,while Joseph Chebet is a kalenjin.
king tut looked like these kalenjin runners ]
QUEEN TIYE LOOKED LIKE THESE KALENJIN RUNNERS MERCY CHERONO JANET CHEPKOSGEY RITA JEPTOO Posts: 306 | From: Kenya | Registered: Dec 2013
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Great. Another example of how far white supremacy will go to continually push their distortion of history no matter what. And that makes sense. What is the point of having power and wealth if you cannot use it? This is consistent across the board from people who have been doing their level best since the late 1800s to find ways to turn ancient Egypt into a land of ancient white or mulatto people.
This is like the 6th or 8th time (I lost count) that they have found some excuse to do a reconstruction of some sort of King Tut. How many times do they need to do a reconstruction and how come so many of the previous ones are so different? The only thing they could be trying to do is to make their reconstruction more 'consistent' with the one done by Claire Danes a few years back which caused an uproar among African folk insulted by such nonsense.
Nowhere else do you see modern 'interpretations' of ancient remains and artifacts put on display as prominently or as often with ancient artifacts. Nowhere. You don't see it in ancient Greek expositions. You don't see it in ancient Rome and you don't see it in ancient China either. In fact, nowhere where the ancient population is obviously or mostly assumed and accepted to have been mostly white. But in Egypt, which obviously is in Africa and to this day still has a large percentage of the population which is black, they have to pull this mess. Who on earth do they think they are kidding? And the reconstructions and artistic presentations they make do not match those done by those who saw the boy in life. Yet they keep pushing their agenda no matter how absurd and retarded it sounds.
But make no mistake this is being done so that any movie, t.v. show and other representation of Tut as white or mulatto has some so-called 'science' that they can claim they are following. It makes it seem like these are all credible and based on science. However, we must remember that all racism in the modern West is based on science, false science.
Egyptian kids from Luxor Egypt today.... more closely matching the image of Tut than any modern European white supremacist can ever come up with, including the flared fat nose as seen in the mummy.
Now if someone was to say that the girl on the left in this picture was a white negro from Europe they would call black folks all kinds of racists.... Even though that is closer to the truth as even they have had to admit that all modern humans originate from black Africans.
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CHANGE IN THE ETHNIC COMPOSITION OF MODERN EGYPT:
We all know in terms of ethnic composition, modern Egypt, is much different from Ancient Egypt.
Contemporary Egypt, is mostly an ethnic admixture between foreign invaders and conquerors and indigenous African people. Autosomally, as a whole, they tend to cluster more with Eurasian especially the Middle East. In the south, populations like Nubians probably cluster more with Africans. All this is because of massive immigration from Europe and western Asia which started already in dynastic time, culminating in the Hyksos (Aamu) foreign rule during the second intermediate period, as well as during the late periods up to now (Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Macedonians, Arab conquest, British colonization, etc).
quote: As a consequence the many invasions of ancient Egypt, the population has changed over the years. There were Hyksos (Heka Khasut) from Asia, who melted into the Delta Region around 1500 B.C.E., and then a series of invasions by the Assyrians, Persians and Greeks. With the arrival of large groups of Arabians in the seventh century C.E., the racial character of Egypt began to change.
The resultant mixtures of Africans, Arabs, Greeks and Persians were to be jointed with Turks, Russians, Albanians, British, and French to create a different population that there had been during the ancient times.
One cannot say that today's Egypt is the same as the Egypt of antiquity anymore than one can say that today's North America is the same as it was 5000 years ago.
- From The Oxford Encyclopedia of African Thought, Volume 1 (2010)
quote:With the passage of time, each wave of new immigrants has assimilated into the local mix of peoples , making modern Egypt a combination of Libyans, Nubians, Syrians, Persians, Macedonians, Romans, Arabs, Turks, Circassians, Greeks, Italians, and Armenians, along with the descendants of the people of ancient Egypt.
- From A Brief History of Egypt by Jr. Goldschmidt Arthur (2007)
quote: - Alexander the Great’s conquest of Egypt, in 332 BCE, precipitated a period of mass immigration .
from Ethnicity (Riggs, 2012) see above/original post for more
quote:The Late Period is often singled out as the time when mass immigration into Egypt altered the character of the country
from A Companion to Ancient History Edited by Andrew Erskine (2009)
quote:The Muslim conquerors did not attempt a mass conversion of Christianity to Islam, if only because that would have reduced the taxes non-Muslims were compelled to pay, but a number of other factors were at work. Arab men could marry Christian women and their children would become Muslim. Large-scale Arab immigration into Egypt began during the eighth century.
from A History of Egypt: From Earliest Times to the Present by Jason Thompson (2009)Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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posted
Mostly nonsense above. No multivariate study has ever appeared on Tutankhamun's skull; the only craniometric measurement taken was the cephalic (cranial) index, which puts Tut well outside any recorded African population mean. Tut had a CI of 83.9 (Hawass et al. 2010). We also know this bachycephaly was not pathological.
So the only cranial measurement we actually have to go on, does not support an "Africanoid"/"Black" identification (who are in check-box forensic racial schemes dolichocephalic).
Posts: 504 | From: No longer here | Registered: Aug 2014
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posted
This affinity pattern between ancient Egyptians and sub-Saharans has also been noticed by several other investigators (Angel 1972;Berry and Berry 1967, 1972; Keita 1995) and has been recently reinforced by the study of Brace et al. (2005), which clearly shows that the cranial morphology of prehistoric and recent northeast African populations is linked to sub-Saharan populations (Niger- Congo populations). - From From Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements by F. X. RICAUT and M. WAELKENS (2008)
posted
Amun-Ra this thread is specific to Tutankhamun, you are showing generalized remarks
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:CHANGE IN THE ETHNIC COMPOSITION OF MODERN EGYPT:
We all know in terms of ethnic composition, modern Egypt, is much different from Ancient Egypt.
Contemporary Egypt, is mostly an ethnic admixture between foreign invaders and conquerors and indigenous African people. Autosomally, as a whole, they tend to cluster more with Eurasian especially the Middle East. In the south, populations like Nubians probably cluster more with Africans. All this is because of massive immigration from Europe and western Asia which started already in dynastic time, culminating in the Hyksos (Aamu) foreign rule during the second intermediate period, as well as during the late periods up to now (Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Macedonians, Arab conquest, British colonization, etc).
Yes, and King Tut falls within this larger scale immigration/invasion period, so too does Ramesses the Great, who was reddish haired.
So why is it 'white supremacy' to claim these individuals may have had non-African ancestry?
Posts: 504 | From: No longer here | Registered: Aug 2014
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quote:CHANGE IN THE ETHNIC COMPOSITION OF MODERN EGYPT:
We all know in terms of ethnic composition, modern Egypt, is much different from Ancient Egypt.
Contemporary Egypt, is mostly an ethnic admixture between foreign invaders and conquerors and indigenous African people. Autosomally, as a whole, they tend to cluster more with Eurasian especially the Middle East. In the south, populations like Nubians probably cluster more with Africans. All this is because of massive immigration from Europe and western Asia which started already in dynastic time, culminating in the Hyksos (Aamu) foreign rule during the second intermediate period, as well as during the late periods up to now (Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Macedonians, Arab conquest, British colonization, etc).
Yes, and King Tut falls within this larger scale immigration/invasion period, so too does Ramesses the Great, who was reddish haired.
So why is it 'white supremacy' to claim these individuals may have had non-African ancestry?
They probably had some non-African ancestry, but they were mostly black African as genetic shows.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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quote:CHANGE IN THE ETHNIC COMPOSITION OF MODERN EGYPT:
We all know in terms of ethnic composition, modern Egypt, is much different from Ancient Egypt.
Contemporary Egypt, is mostly an ethnic admixture between foreign invaders and conquerors and indigenous African people. Autosomally, as a whole, they tend to cluster more with Eurasian especially the Middle East. In the south, populations like Nubians probably cluster more with Africans. All this is because of massive immigration from Europe and western Asia which started already in dynastic time, culminating in the Hyksos (Aamu) foreign rule during the second intermediate period, as well as during the late periods up to now (Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Macedonians, Arab conquest, British colonization, etc).
Yes, and King Tut falls within this larger scale immigration/invasion period, so too does Ramesses the Great, who was reddish haired.
So why is it 'white supremacy' to claim these individuals may have had non-African ancestry?
The Hyksos took over part of Egypt around 1640 B.C. for about 100 years.
Tutankhamun's reign started 400 years later 1332 BC but prior to the late period invasions beginning much later with the Assyrians in 671 BC. Therefore those later nvasions are irrelevant to Tutankhmun
There is no historical evidence Tutankhamun was of Hyksos descent or partial Hyksos descent.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
What are these genetic studies? Genotype frequencies for a small number of cherry-picked alleles? The non-peer reviewed study referenced above only sequenced 8 loci to find 2 alleles much more frequent in populations of Africa than in other parts of the world (D18S51 and D21S11). So what? You can easily find certain alleles more common in Siberia or Northern Europe.
quote:DNA results identified alleles that today are most frequent in Sub-Saharan Africa and found in Middle Eastern populations at lower frequencies. This suggests a Sub-Saharan African genetic component for the Amarna Period royal family, but does not exclude the possibility of additional ancestral components for those ancient individuals
Posts: 504 | From: No longer here | Registered: Aug 2014
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What did you make of the JAMA 2010 results(Hawass et al. 2010? You cited the study with reference to Tut's cranial index.
Gor/Cass says:
quote:What are these genetic studies? Genotype frequencies for a small number of cherry-picked alleles? The non-peer reviewed study referenced above only sequenced 8 loci to find 2 alleles much more frequent in populations of Africa than in other parts of the world (D18S51 and D21S11). So what? You can easily find certain alleles more common in Siberia or Northern Europe.
The stuff on skulls is about 5 non-metrics (stuff like overbite which occurs in high frequency nearly everywhere, excluding Native Americans, whose teeth are usually perfectly aligned) and one cranial measurement (the CI I posted). Nothing can be drawn from this. However its true to say by using the latter - all African populations are outsiders. There is no recorded African population with a mean brachycephalic CI index, it would also be very rare to find a living African individual with Tut's CI (83.9).
Posts: 504 | From: No longer here | Registered: Aug 2014
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The Hyksos took over part of Egypt around 1640 B.C. for about 100 years.
Tutankhamun's reign started 400 years later 1332 BC but prior to the late period invasions beginning much later with the Assyrians in 671 BC. Therefore those later nvasions are irrelevant to Tutankhmun
There is no historical evidence Tutankhamun was of Hyksos descent or partial Hyksos descent. [/QB]
"Even before the [Hyksos] migration, Amenemhat III carried out extensive building works and mining, and Gae Callender notes that "the large intake of Asiatics, which seems to have occurred partly in order to subsidize the extensive building work, may have encouraged the so-called Hyksos to settle in the Delta, thus leading eventually to the collapse of native Egyptian rule." - Callender, Gae, "The Middle Kingdom Renaissance," in Ian Shaw, ed. The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt, Oxford University Press, 2003. p. 157.
It looks like a couple of centuries before the Hyksos invasion, large numbers of Asiatics had already settled into the north-eastern Nile Delta region.
Posts: 504 | From: No longer here | Registered: Aug 2014
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posted
Anyway, talking of Tut again. KV55 was recently identified as his father's (Akhenaten's) remains (?).
KV55's post-cranial measurements have been known for some time:
"If the brachial (radio-humeral) and crural (tibio-femoral) indices are calculated for these remains, they are found to measure 75.1 and 82.6 respectively. These values, and the lengths of the humerus and femur, agree very closely with data presented for male American whites by Krogman in 1955." (Harrison, 1966)
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