posted
As usual, you just talk a lot with nothing to support it. The historical community acknowledges a lot more from Egypt in Greece than you think. The problem with you is that you are not the historical community and what you perceive as their views is actually your own distorted nonsense.
That is why you never post anything of substance, because there is no substance.
Posts: 8897 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: We are glad Doug that you guys have filled us in on all of these Egyptian contributions to Greece. It is ashame that the body of the academic community has missed your point. Classical scholars disagree with you at every turn, you know that. It is exactly why you never quote them in this rubble you promote. This negroid political-history is about as valid as assorted UFO theories floating around.
^ So you still can't answer the below then?
quote: Why do you keep appealing to (mistaken) authority? Stop making blanket claims and properly prove the following:
1) That the ancient Egyptians had little to no influence on Greek philosophy and knowledge
2) That Greek philosophy and knowledge was "homegrown"
3) That "every scholar that ever lived" agrees with the above (chuckle).
Do so, or simply "shut up". Simple enough. No more of this nonsense about high school history books.
^ Though I realize its probably asking too much of you. We'll see if you can.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Are you kidding me? Why do you suppose there's Intellectual Property Law?
quote:Originally posted by unfinished thought: Besides, how do you steal ideas and thought?
The point is nothing was "stolen" from Egypt by the Greeks, as they were quite clear where the roots of many important cultural facets come from.
The problem however was when modern (racist) Western society began to deny such credit, and today the problem only persist with well.. racist folks like 'patriot'.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
The irony is an afrocentric calling anyone a racist, the entire structure is based on racism. No two cultures could be more different than Egypt and Greece. What level of moron sets himself up against the entire body of modern scholarship and then calls those who defend it a racist.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Are you kidding me? Why do you suppose there's Intellectual Property Law?
quote:Originally posted by unfinished thought: Besides, how do you steal ideas and thought?
The point is nothing was "stolen" from Egypt by the Greeks, as they were quite clear where the roots of many important cultural facets come from.
The problem however was when modern (racist) Western society began to deny such credit, and today the problem only persist with well.. racist folks like 'patriot'.
Point is, you babble on and on like the closet racist you are, about there not being a stolen legacy but dare not reply to great sage's post re said stolen legacy fearing this
posted
No serious Greek scholar has ever believed or supported the idea of a 'Stolen Legacy'
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
| IP: Logged |
Stolen Legacy is a less euphemistic term for cultural borrowing, something all nations not in isolation have done.
In the case of Africa, because her name is so besmirched, stolen legacy seems more apropo than cultural borrowing.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
Orpheus, for instance, brought from Egypt most of his mystic ceremonies, the orgiastic rites that accompanied his wanderings, and his fabulous account of his experiences in Hades. For the rite of Osiris is the same as that of Dionysus, and that of Isis very similar to that of Demeter, the names alone having been interchanged; and the punishments in Hades of the unrighteous, the Fields of the Righteous, and the fantastic conceptions, current among the many, which are figments of the imagination — all these were introduced by Orpheus in imitation of Egyptian funeral customs.
And as proof of the presence of Homer they adduce various pieces of evidence , and especially the healing drink which brings forgetfulness of all past evils, which was given by Helen to Telemachus in the home of Menelaus [in Book Four of the Odyssey] ... for, they allege, even to this day the women of this city [Thebes in Egypt] use this powerful remedy.
Diodorus Siculus Library of History, Book I, 96-98
When the Egyptian Screw is renamed Archimedes Screw we have a stolen legacy.
When the Square of the Hypotenuse is called Pythagorean Theorem millenia after the erection of the Great Pyramid we have a stolen legacy.
When books from the old temple library at Ra Kedet transfer to the new library at adjacent Alexandria, and take on false authorship, we have a stolen legacy.
When structural pillars are labeled Doric, Ionic and Corinthian ages since their Egyptian predecessor models -- Papyrus, Hathor and Palm -- we have a stolen legacy.
As long as Asclepius and Hippocrates retain household fame as medicine men instead of multi-genius Imhotep's name on every tongue as first in the field we abet the stolen legacy.
It's very clear that there is a STOLEN LEGACY and it is perfectly valid, legal, moral and dutiful for the rightful heirs of that legacy to declare, "**** stinks."
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
According to Prof. James, what happened in Egypt as it concerned the ancient Greeks and Egyptian philosophy, it was more than just cultural borrowing but all out theft.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
GREEKS EVEN BORROWED THEIR NUMBERS FROM EGYPT
The astronomers, physicists and mathematicians of ancient Greece were true innovators.
Ancient Greeks used letters and extra symbols to represent digits But one thing it seems the ancient Greeks did not invent was the counting system on which many of their greatest thinkers based their pioneering calculations.
New research suggests the Greeks borrowed their system known as alphabetic numerals from the Egyptians, and did not develop it themselves as was long believed.
Greek alphabetic numerals were favoured by the mathematician and physicist Archimedes, the scientific philosopher Aristotle and the mathematician Euclid, amongst others.
Trade explosion
An analysis by Dr Stephen Chrisomalis of McGill University in Montreal, Canada, showed striking similarities between Greek alphabetic numerals and Egyptian demotic numerals, used in Egypt from the late 8th Century BC until around AD 450.
Both systems use nine signs in each "base" so that individual units are counted 1-9, tens are counted 10-90 and so on. Both systems also lack a symbol for zero.
Dr Chrisomalis proposes that an explosion in trade between Greece and Egypt after 600 BC led to the system being adopted by the Greeks.
Greek merchants may have seen the demotic system in use in Egypt and adapted it for their own purposes.
"We know there was an enormous amount of contact between the Greeks and Egyptians at this time," Dr Chrisomalis told BBC News Online.
'Plausible' theory
Professor David Joyce, a mathematician at Clark University in Worcester, US, said he had not examined Dr Chrisomalis' research, but thought the link was plausible.
"Egyptians used hieratic and, later, demotic script where the multiple symbols looked more like single symbols," said Professor Joyce.
"Instead of seven vertical strokes, a particular squiggle was used. That's the same scheme used in the Greek alphabetic numerals."
Traditionally, the system is thought to have been developed by Greeks in western Asia Minor, in modern day Turkey.
Between 475 BC and 325 BC, alphabetic numerals fell out of use in favour of a system of written numbers known as acrophonic numerals.
But from the late 4th Century BC onwards, alphabetic numerals became the preferred system throughout the Greek-speaking world.
They were used until the fall of the Byzantine Empire in the 15th Century.
The research is to be published in the journal Antiquity
Posts: 96 | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Since this thread was brought back up. Just thought I'd post this since apparently some don't know of these written proofs (papyrus) of Egyptian mathematics, especially of trigonometry and geometry as if the pyramids and temples were simply made from eye-balling ...
"Rhind" papyrus concerning fractions, multiplication and division, and some trigonomic problems.
"Moscow" papyrus dealing with the surface of a hemisphere, volume of a frustrum, volume of a truncated pyramid.
Also, from UCLA's website, we have this:
"The Pythagorean theorem was first known in ancient Babylon and Egypt (beginning about 1900 B.C.). The relationship was shown on a 4000 year old Babylonian tablet now known as Plimpton 322. However, the relationship was not widely publicized until Pythagoras stated it explicitly."
The 3-4-5 right triangle and it's properties had been known and been in WIDE use thousands of years before Pythagoras.
Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Egyptian decorative art on vases influenced the decorative art on vases of the Greeks. And also the kouroi even the Greeks came up with even though they are slightly different.
quote: "Egypt was the centre of the body of ancient wisdom, and knowledge, religious, philosophical and scientific spread to other lands through student Initiates. Such teachings remained for generations and centuries in the form of tradition, until the conquest of Egypt by Alexander the Great, and the movement of Aristotle and his school to compile Egyptian teaching **and claim it as Greek Philosophy.** (Ancient Mysteries by C. H. Vail p. 16.)
Go ahead, call Prof. James' book "silly" and not real evidence, you know you want to... Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
We all know about the Greek/Doric columns and Kouros statues..what would be intresting to find out if they performed any riturals before embarking on making a statue or a building that resembles the Kemetic way of doing things..for example saying a prayer to Ptah or something like that.
I would also like to persue Bes in AG and his relationship to Pan... a true globe trotter he was.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Daidalos,Kothor,Ptah. what did these figures had in common?..answer they were all divine craft men...but did they have a common origin? lets take a look.
Diadalos:
In Greek mythology, Daedalus (Latin, also Hellenized Latin Daedalos, Greek Daidalos (Δαίδαλος) meaning "cunning worker", and Etruscan Taitle) was a most skillful architect, or artificer, or craftsman, so skillful that he was said to have invented images that seemed to move about.[1] Daedalus had two sons: Icarus and Iapyx, along with a nephew, whose name varies. He is first mentioned by Homer as the creator of a wide dancing-ground for Ariadne [2]. The Labyrinth on Crete in which the Minotaur (part man, part bull) was kept, was also created by the artificer Daedalus. The story of the labyrinth is told where Theseus is challenged to kill the Minotaur, finding his way with the help of Ariadne's thread.
Kothar:
Kothar Semitic deity also called Kothar-wa-Khasis (“skill-and-cunning”) (West Semitic: “skill”) Main ancient West Semitic god of crafts, equivalent of the Greek god Hephaestus. Kothar was responsible for supplying the gods with weapons and for building and furnishing their palaces. During the earlier part of the 2nd millennium bc, Kothar’s forge was believed to be on the biblical Caphtor (probably Crete), though later, during the period of Egyptian domination of Syria and Palestine, he was identified with the Egyptian god Ptah, patron of craftsmen, and his forge was thus located at Memphis in Egypt. According to Phoenician tradition, Kothar was also the patron of magic and inventor of magical incantations; in addition, he was believed to have been the first poet. www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/322848/Kothar
Ptah:
Home :: the Gods :: Ptah Ptah Symbols: Architect's transit, level, plumb-line, bricks, djed Cult Center: Memphis
Ptah was the chief god of the ancient city of Memphis. He was a creator god who brought all things to being by thinking of them with his mind and saying their names with his tongue. He was unique amongst Egyptian creation gods in that his methods were intellectual, rather than physical. According to the priests of Memphis, everything is the work of Ptah's heart and tongue: gods are born, towns are founded, and order is maintained.
Ptah was also the patron god of skilled craftsmen and architects. This may be due to the excellent sources of limestone near his temple in in Memphis. As a craftsman, Ptah was said to have carved the divine bodies of the royalty. In Dynasty XIX, he was shown fashioning the body of Rameses II out of electrum.
Now those who yell and scream that there is absolutely no connection the above was taken from three different sources pointing to the same direction>Kemet and when you consider that Bes shows up all over the med.in one form or another then there is no question that they the greeks got a major part of their Philosophy from Kemet.an ancient African nation.
Greek pyramid
The Pyramids in the Peloponnesus Exerpt One:
The three pyramids located in the Peloponnesus have recently been the center of a great deal of attention. This sudden interest is being shown not only by archaeologists and historians, but by the general public as well, both Greek and foreign. This is entirely justified because they concern the distant past of humanity as a whole. The astonishment one naturally experiences when seeing the pyramids of Egypt for the first time, is akin to the reaction of those who are told that their prototypes are most likely to be found in an obscure village near Argos in the Peloponnesus. This assertion -- which contradicts the misguided belief held by many that civilization proceeded from the East -- is bolstered by the concurrence that exists between the chronological assessment of these pyramids made by the prestigious Athens Academy, the University of Edinburgh, Scotland, and the historical information available to us from ancient sources: All of which have to do with when these structures were constructed, whether this architectural know-how was transferred to Egypt from Greece, and, if so, how. - Source www.thelivingmoon.com/.../Pyramids_World.html
Kouros statues
Remember Diadalos was said to have made the statues that seems to walk...notice the same manner as Kemetic statues.
notice the clenched fist and one foot placed infront of the other in a walking motion.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
About the above section on Greek pyramids..notice all of a sudden the technology is transfered from Greece to Kemet and ignoring other obviously Kemetic Imports such as this.
Hypostyle Hall Philae Temple
The Acropolis Athens
All of this borrowing of technology came with a philosophy along with it.
From Sais,wrote Diodoros,Egyptian colonists sailed forth to found Athens-or atleast,so claimed the Egyptian priests. "In-deed,"Diodoros continues,"the Egyptians say that their ancestors sent forth numerous colonies to many parts of the inhabited world, by reason of the pre-eminence of their kings and the excessive population.
Were some of those colonist sent to Crete? and did they bring the cults of Ptah,Neith and other Egyptian gods along with them?
Sir Arthur Evans,the discoverer of Knossos,beleived that Egyptian influence had been decisive in Minoan history. noting the large number of Egyptian artifacts found at early Minoan sites.Evans observed that "the determining cause of this brilliant developement of early civilization is ....traceable to the opening of comminications with the Nile Valley across the Libyan sea.
When civilization finally arrived in Crete,it struct all at once.Around 2000 B.C,the Islanders suddendly began rearing magnificent "Palaces",like those of Knossos,where before they had only built small towns and villages.Most experts agree that the change was too sudden and dramatic to have evolved from internal forces alone. Some inspiration clearly sparked this explosion of palace building.
Perhaps it was the memory of such foreign influence that gave rise to the legend,recounted by Diodoros,that Diadalos copied the design for his Certan Labyrinth from an Egyptian original. Diodoros wrote:
[The Egyptian king]Mendes...did built himself a tomb known as the Labyrinith,which..was impossible to imitate in respect of its ingenious design;for a man who enters it cannot easly find his way out,unless he gets a guide who is thoroughly acquainted with the structure. And some say that Diadalos,visiting Egypt and admireing the skill shown inthe building,also constructed one for Minos, the King of Crete, a Labyrinth like the one in Egypt.(Black Sparks White Fire. Richard Poe)
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Brada, This Egypt-Greece stuff has been debuked by every classical scholar to come down the pike. The entire concept is simple ignorance. As long as you keep pushing these nutty theories nobody is going to take you seriously, just more racisal politics.
-------------------- The tree of liberty is watered by the blood of tyrants. Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
What nutty theories,A.P Hammer..some of the above findings was from non other than Sir.Arthur Evans himself.the discoverer of Knossos..and now where in the above is race mentioned.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Race is behind everything you do Brada. Egypt had a thriving trade relationship with the Minoans, they had that relationship with many peoples in the area. You cannot just look at that fact and start drawing assumptions. Greece had much more influence on Egypt than the other way around. In fact Greco-Roman civilization took the damn place over and dominated it for nearly a thousand years.
-------------------- The tree of liberty is watered by the blood of tyrants. Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hammer you are going to stand there and tell me from the above that sculptures,the divine craft-man,the fluted columns..all had nothing to do with Egypt and the concepts behind them?.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
It is hard to prove a philosophical connection between the Greeks and Egyptians. It's s hard to prove that there were mystery schools. It's hard to prove that even though Greeks said that they studied in Egypt that they did study in Egypt. Architecture is s separate issue and should be treated as such. The Greeks were obviously heavily influenced by Egyptian architecture.
Posts: 42939 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Lioness ancient peoples didn't just put up building and sculptures willy nilly especially religious ones and just like a Mosque,most Churches and Synagogues today there is a philosophy behind them if they were being influenced by Kemetic art and architecture then they were being influenced by Kemetic philosophic tradition because they would have to have learnt those arts from a Kemitic master builder who also a priest.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Race is behind everything you do Brada. Egypt had a thriving trade relationship with the Minoans, they had that relationship with many peoples in the area. You cannot just look at that fact and start drawing assumptions. whine...whine...whine...whinnneee.
Awwww.., stop whining like a bytch! Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Brada, This Egypt-Greece stuff has been debuked by every classical scholar to come down the pike. The entire concept is simple ignorance. As long as you keep pushing these nutty theories nobody is going to take you seriously, just more racisal politics.
Which one. Hammered. Source - please - for the first time on Egyptsearch forum. And whose nobody?
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
The Greeks for the most part acknowledged their debt to the Kemites it is the moderns that don't want to give the Ancient Kemites any credit.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
I dont see nothing great about Greece come on after all that time The Iliad and Odyssey is among the oldest extant works of Western literature boring africans already had novels,books,magicspells,etc written by the thousands. Greece is a product of African/Egyptian Hegemony
Posts: 410 | From: Al-Ard | Registered: Jun 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Give the Greeks their due I liked their stories I did't find them boring at all.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
...
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic