posted
I'm asking because the movie script I wrote features both prominently. Everytime I separate the two something in the back of my mind says "not a coincidence".
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
All above posts are correct and I thought I'd add the below to clarify the posters a little more
Ta Mehh is a place name not an ethnic name. It designates the northern/papyrus region of the Nile Delta. It is the word translated as Lower Egypt.
Anybody could've been living there. Apparently, folk always lived just south of the delta since the middle stone age. Many folk originating west of the delta and the Fayum settled near the delta. A smattering of folk migrated back and forth from the Levant to east of the delta for livestock fodder and trade but were never so much permanent settlers.
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ES archives are a source unto themselves unlike and often more specialized than published books and reports less lone pooh butt blogs
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
When are you writing an Egyptsearch anthology?
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Just what would that be? ES is not monolithic. It would be a lie to gather materials only from the serious and studied.
ES is not known nor respected for what it was when intelligent posts were the norm.
Today ES is known as a racist site of posts more fantasy than substance having nothing to do with Egyptology, African Studies, or the like.
Your anthology idea is a good one. Someone other than me will have to bring it to fruition. The Class of 2008 talked of ES conferences and ES books but they couldn't even so much as carry on the ES feared by Nat'l Geo, they ran and left the place to dry rot and mildew into the laughingstock of mockery it is today.
posted
Tukuler is the moderator seat still open? How would one get in contact with the owners of the forum.
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Meet on the Level, act upon the Plumb, part on the Square. Posts: 574 | From: Guinee | Registered: Jul 2014
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Honestly idk how 2 touch owner/manager.
There's but 1 I'd drop my key to but they lack a couple must have qualities.
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Just came from the directory a member status search yielded 3 names, u can try all three. Good luck!
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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The use of different names to describe the Tehenu and Asian in the Ramses III Table of Nations is understood in relation to the political and ethnic conditions in Egypt and Western Asia during this period. The research appears to indicate that the physiognomy of the Libyans had changed by this time . This resulted , for the most part from the invasion of Egypt by Sea Peoples in association with the Libu (Libyans).
The figures on Ramses III Table of nations are associated with the nations Ramses was dealing with iduring his reign. The Libyans attacked Egypt during the 5th and 11th years of Ramses III's reign. Beginning around 1230 Sea People began to attack Egypt. In 1180 Ramses III had his decisive battle with the Libyans. Among the warriors fighting with the Libu were Sea People.
The Rameses III relief clearly illustrates that the people on the relief from left to right are A. Rmt (Egyptian), B. Tjhnw (Libyans), C. Nhsy (Kushites) and D. Aamw (Syro-Palestinians). This reality is discussed by F.J. Yurco, in his article on the Rameses III relief, in Egypt in Africa, (Ed.) Theorore Celenke (1996).
Ramses III made multiple versions of his campaigns against the Libyans. To understand the naming method for Ramses III Table of Nations you have to understand that the term Tehenu was a generic term applied to the Libyans, who by this time were mixed with Palestinian-Syrian people (who were descendants of the Gutians), and People of the Sea (Indo-Europeans).
The attack against Egypt in 1188 was a coalition of tribal groups led by the Meshwesh, who are believed to be a Tamehu nationality. As a result, we find that the Meshwesh were referred to as Tehenu\Tamehu. This may not be correct because the Meshwesh are not mention in Egyptian text until the 14th Century BC.
The members of the coalition were led by Meshesher the wr 'ruler' of the coalition.Each group was led by a "great one" or a magnate. The Meshwesh were semi-nomads that lived both in villages and dmi'w 'towns'.The Tehenu lived in the Delta between the Temehu and the Egyptians. The Egyptians referred to all of the people in this area most often by the generic tern "Tehenu".
The TjemhuTemehu which included the Meshwesh controled an area from Cyrenaica to Syria. As a result, in textual material from the reign of Ramses II, there is mention of Temehu towns in Syria. David O'Connor makes it clear that Ramses III referred to these Temehu by the term Tehenu/Tjehnyu (p.64).
The Temehu were very hostile to the Tehenu/Tjehnya. In fact, the first mention of the Meshwesh in Ramses III inscriptions relating to 1188, was the attack of the Tehenu, by the Meshwqesh, Soped and Sea People . David O'Connor makes it clear that the the records of Ramses III make it clear that the Meshweshy "savagely" attacked the Tehenu and looted their cities during their advance to Egypt (p.35 & 105).
The coalition of the Meshweshy had each unit of the army organized into "family or tribal ' units under the leadership of a "great one". As result to understand why the fAsian and Tehenu figures on the Table of Nations are identified differently you have use both the pictorical and textual material from the reign of Ramses III to understand the representations. As a result, Palestianian -Syrian personage or figure D, is labled Tehenu because he was probably a member of one Meshwesh units, thus he was labled Tehenu. The personage that is second from the Egyptians which is labled an Asian, eventhough he is clearly a Tehenu, was probably a member of a Syrian Palestinian unit when he was captured by the Egyptians thusly he was labled Asian. You can find out more about this reality if you check out: David O'Connor, "The nature of Tjemhu (Libyan) society in later New Kingdom; in Libya and Egypt c1300-750 BC, (Ed.) by Athony Leahy (pp.29-113), SOAS Centre of Near and Middle Eastern Studies and the Society for Libyan Studies, 1990.
In the Table of Nation figure B we see the traditional depiction of a Tehenu, the sidelock, shoulder cape and clean face. The Temehu, called Meshwesh are different from the Tehenu and the original Tamehu recorded by the Egyptians prior to the New Kingdom. Below is a Meshwesh
The Meshwesh wore Tehenu traditional costumes but they are not believed to be real Tehenu. The Tehenu and the Temehu usually wore different costumes. In the New Kingdom depictions of the Temehu, the Meshwesh have "long chin beards", like the Syrian-Palestinians and Peoples of the Sea. They wear kilts, sheaths and capes open at the front tied at one shoulder. Like the earlier Tehenu they wore feathers as a sign of High Status.
David O'Connor makes it clear that there was "marked hetergeneity of the Tjemhu" (p.41). The first attack by Libyans on Egypt were led by the Libu during the 5th year of Ramses III's reign. Diop has provided convincing evidence that the Libu, later migrated into Senegal, where they presenly live near Cape Verde
The difference in dress among the Meshwesh and their hostility toward the Tehenu, have led many researchers to see the Temehu of the New Kingdom as a different group from the original Temehu of Egyptian traditions. O'Connor (p.74) in the work cited above makes it clear that the Temehu in Ramses III day--"[have] hairstyles, dress and apparently ethnic type [that] are markedly different from the Tjehnyu/tjemhu of the Old Kingdom (Osing, 1980,1018-19). Various explanations have been offered: Wainwright, for example, concluded that 'Meshwesh was a mixed tribe of Libu like tribesmen with their native chiefs who become subject to a family of Tjehnu origin'(1962,p.92), while Osing suggested that the New Kingdowm Tjemhu had displaced or absorbed the earlier Tjehnyu but had selectively taken over or retained some Tjehnyu traits, in the case of the rulers for Meshwesh (1980,1019-1020). Dr. O'Connor is of the opinion "that some rulers of the later New Kingdom Tjemhu deliberately adopted traits they discovered from the Egyptians to be charcteristic of ancient Tjehnyu/Tjemhu, so as to increase there prestige, or in some way had these traits imposed upon them by the Egyptians" (p.74).
It is my opinion that given the organiztion of the Libyans into mhwt "family or tribal groups', sometime prior to 1230 BC over an extended period of time Indo-European speaking people later to be known as Peoples of the Sea entered Western Asia and Libya and were adopted by Tehenu families. This adoption of the new immigrants by Tehenu/Tamehu probably led to the Meshwesh and Soped adopting Tehenu customs but maintaining their traditional beards,. The original Temehu, like the Libu probably saw the integration of Sea Peoples into Temehu society as a way to increase their number and possibily conquer Egypt. It is interesting to note that the Meshwesh were very sure they might be able to conquor the Egyptians because they brought their cattle and other animals with them when they invaded the country. Moreover whereas the Meshwesh, were semi-nomadic, the Sea Peoples: Akawashu, Lukki, Tursha., Sheklesh, and Sherden remained nomadic. and used the spear and round shield.
The Nehasyu were ancient members of the Tehenu/Temehu. This would explain the reason why the Meshwesh and Nehasyu were mainly bowman.
In conclusion, the names for the personages in the Table of Nations from Ramses III tomb were labled correctly. These personages were recorded in the the Tables based on the military and family units were attached too, not the country identifiable by their dress.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
I would have to disagree with some of the statements above. Iris true that ES has declined some since many serious posters are no longer active.
But when I came 8 years ago, when many of the in-depth guys were still here, the place was awash with trolls, and assorted cranks. You had troll "Akoben" who conducted flame wars with veteran regulars that ran out for tens of pages, and spilled over into thread after thread. You had troll "Hammer" who around the clock delivered robotic boilerplate about how noble he was battling alleged Afrocentric "militants."
You had this "Abaza" guy who had/has over 20 different accounts posting tons of BS day after day. The place was never a pristine oasis of scholarship and knowledge. You had the ex-moderator "Ausar", a decent guy, but even he was fronting as a native Egyptian maybe to give the place a ring of "authenticity," or better combat the many trolls, or for his own persona reasons. The black Olmecians, royalists and others were well represented.
And some of the same guys who were posting heavy duty info were among the most heavily involved in flame wars with trolls or even between themselves. ES was never all sweetness, light or hallowed fount of learning.
That said, at present ES's value package (and Reloaded to some extent) is a triad:
1) DATABANK Repository of a huge amount of well documented, credible data and scholarship. And that has not changed for much current info is still being posted, at a slower rate than in the past but it is still being done. Just the archives themselves are a treasure trove of knowledge, some of it hard won, beaten out in the furnace of combat. ES now is even referenced in some textbooks I saw some months ago, and social media groups on Facebook are picking up the info for that venue. Mo betta all the way around..
2) GOOGLE RESOURCE AND WIKIPEDIA END-RUNNER
Even as a lower profile archive site ES is doing its job and is getting excellent representation in Google. This means people especially African people can find credible balanced, info with a Google search. They no longer need rely on the sometimes deceptive and biased "knowledge" served up by certain Wikipedia moles, who, together with Admin compradors, have run a cynical campaign for years to distort the history of African peoples and their cultures.
3) ARSENAL FOR BATTLE
It is also valuable as a resource pool for those who do battle in distant fields, like Morpheus, TooTall, Big Mike, SLugger etc etc, who time and time again have taken on, and defeated all comers because they have the data right at their fingertips. See for example:
Posted by Punos_Rey (Member # 21929) on 19 March, 2016 10:00 PM:
I've extensively used the database in my current struggle on historum, it has been a great help Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on 20 March, 2016 12:14 AM:
Good. ANd no doubt you will add your own stuff as your research pulls out new info, or expands on well known stories in more detail. Morpheus at VNN forums was also doing well. Even his main opponent Frank openly admitted defeat- see below. http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=309339&page=15 Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on 17 April, 2016 03:19 PM:
Here is another example- An ES member going under the name "Taharqua" schools "the white faithful" of Eupedia.
These are only the most visible examples. Anytime someone debunks some Eurocentric distortion using the facts at hand, then the "arsenal" is doing its job, and they are helping the overall cause of the people. One doesn't have to be any technical wizard, just have to be able to put one's hand on the facts and apply them assertively.
While there is much to criticize, even back in the day of all those regulars, reckless condemnations are only laying into the hands of the many bigots, baiters and bashers who desperately want to "label" ES as something "evil" beyond the pale. If they succeed in doing that, then essentially they can dismiss the hard data in place without having to address it. Its a typical propaganda game. There are also competitors to ES as a forum, who have a vested interest in bad-mouthing the place, thus building up their venues as an alternative.
Will ES ever go back to the days of 15-20 serious guys always on deck? Probably not, and doesn't have to. The big battles have mostly been won though there is still plenty of "mop up" work. Solid guys who can guard the gates, plug in some info from time to time, and hold true to some vision of balanced African foundations may be just as important these day as the technical wizards of the past. The wizards have moved on but the solid guys remain. ES can get along fine with a lower profile than in the past. The posting of content to newer social media venues, particularly Facebook and Youtube, will extend the reach even more.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes: Ta-Shemu[Upper Egypt],and Ta-Mehu[Lower Egypt] Right? Ok right?
So Ta-Mehu and the Temehu... Huh? Were the Ta-Mehu Temehu?
Related perhaps- not necessarily the same. The two contended for supremacy in some time periods.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
There is no relation as the terms are from entirely different roots.
Nor does scene 30 from Book of Gates rep any unit leader captives or flights of fantasy. Everyone in it is dead awaiting resurrection.
Tjemehhu is the generic for Libyan peoples. Tjehenu are a particular Libyan people who were the first recorded by the Egyptians and they adjacent to, if not in, Egypt's north area the delta ie the Mehh land (ta).
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Who wants to go back? ES must move forward.
Nobody's crying over the supposedly good old days. There're excellent members here and now.
But wake up. ES is known for what it is and what it is is a racist site offering a lot of rubbish.
Those who gloss over these facts and do nor say nothing against the overt hatred and racism are more guilty than the perpetrators.
Who's going to go to the lavatory while someone's taking a **** to smell and admire flowers? Just lovers of the smell of ****.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Who wants to go back? ES must move forward.
Nobody's crying over the supposedly good old days. There're excellent members here and now.
But wake up. ES is known for what it is and what it is is a racist site offering a lot of rubbish.
Those who gloss over these facts and do nor say nothing against the overt hatred and racism are more guilty than the perpetrators.
Who's going to go to the lavatory while someone's taking a **** to smell and admire flowers? Just lovers of the smell of ****.
Being that on the other end of the spectrum guys meet up to suck each others dicks and beat of to white supremacy, a place where people can come together with the intent to learn and teach should be promoted. The thing is, as researchers and POC, we should be comfortable with the truth... for there is no agenda, the battle initially has been an uphill one, solely to correct what was wrong... There's no need for the overt racism and falsifications that I've witnessed in the short period I've been on board.
A major problem in embodying a bigoted/radical persona (As a site) is the lack of accessibility for lurkers from all backgrounds... Certain concepts here should and deserves to be common knowledge. When a Radical racist/white supremacist or Ignoramus shows up to a neutral crowd with infallible resources, the credibility & prominence of what's being shared amongst ESers are only strengthened through these interactions...This result should be the goal.
Sucking our own dicks and beating off to a false sense of pride, hurts every bit of reputable information gathered on this site.... I would never accept a link labeled as "Intelligible" directing me to stormfront... I honestly can assume someone with a different perspective with feel the same way about a link to EgyptSearch. With such a fractured community (western mostly), a repertoire of reputable information accessible to all should be promoted, It will benefit non-Eurocentric perspectives more than a 15min mock up of self validation & false pride.
Yeah guys ...I hope/wish and desire to see better management of the site going forward.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
One thing about this site the regulars all know is management doesn't give a rat's rear end and in fact has deleted top notch threads without notice, something unfair to diligent research that took the reporting investigator many man hours of thought and composition, one reason most posts nowadays are more like chit chat than informative memos.
So its up to the membership to make what they will of ES. New blood was impossible to bring onboard for years. Everyone I asked to enroll during my stint never made it past registration.
Good thing we got a set of newbies regardless their bent. The proportions of tolerant vs racist newbies is a thermometer of how the site is perceived by outsiders whether dedicated lurkers or those just dropping by to gather ammo to shoot game elsewhere or real potential ESers come to contribute and build up what Enrique rightly calls the database.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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