quote:Originally posted by lamin: Neth-Athena wrote:
quote:...the history of migrations and colonization that brought Eurasians from the Neolithic to the present time into North Africa
Could you possibly elaborate on this--bearing in mind the specific meaning of the term "Eurasian"? Maybe we can also learn--in terms of numbers--the significance of such migrations.
Re What to call the people of Africa
Why not be economical and consistent in the whole matter. For example, South Asians and East Asians differ significantly in terms of phenotype yet when described colour terms and eye shape terms are never brought up. Why not just speak in terms of regions--when it comes to Africa--West Africa, East Africa, Southern Africa and North Africa. Talk of "sub-Saharan" Africa is sheer racism--because as you wrote it is just euphemistic racist code for all the world's ills--maximally exaggerated for racist effect.
But to be more accurate one can use the same techniques as animal and plan biologists: an African would simply be a member of the human species whose phenotype offers evidence of being shaped by the environments of Africa. A significant phenotypical marker of such would be "hair form"--of which the African variety seems unique to Africa--coupled with a pigmentation range from very dark(Sudan) to yellow(some of the populations of North and Southern Africa).
I am no expert but from what I have understood by browsing through this forum during the Neolithic Sea Peoples went to the African coast and mixed with the local (Black - should go sans saying) population. Am I wrong? If so, please correct me.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
lamin -----
The movement of peoples throughout the world within the time periods that it takes for new genomic muatations to arise has been traced by the signatures left by haplotypes. In the case there is little evidence that Eurasian or West Asian haplotypes entered North Africa in any significant way before 1000 BC. After 1,000 BC Persians, Greeks, Romans, Turks then assorted Europeans entered North Africa which did transform the genomic profile of that period. but nothing as far back as the Neolithic as you claim.
Check out the movements of R, I, J, and E3 hapotypes plus the Ls and U6 into North Africa over time to confirm or disconfirm my point.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Creamy colored "Libyans" appear before 1000 BCE in 18th Dynasty tomb paintings. These paintings are roughly contemporaneous to Sea Peoples migrations thus whatever lightened this particular sub-population of ancient "Libyans" seemingly happened before the Sea Peoples advent.
Minoan art leads me to presuppose regular back and forth contact between Libya and the Aegean. But it was further west where the ancient "Libyan" Meshwesh (whose ethnonym ends in "esh" as did the ethnonyms of select Sea Peoples) lived.
Archaeology of Tunis yields evidence of trade with Tyrrhenian populations. Were women one of the items? Then there's this so-called "Beaker" culture/tradition that was supposedly south European to start with. Iirc, with the Beaker industry a more selfish and militant outlook presents itself in coastal North Africa. Maybe some lightening came onboard with the Beakers?
Population geneticist's reports oalone would have one conclude the lightening is a result of demic movements in wake of Islam. If the slave trade is what lightened coastal North Africa, that leaves us to surmise some genetic mutation as responsible for dynastic Egypt era "whites" in North Africa.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
And add to that the fact that the earliest "Libyans" were often depicted in similar shades as the Egyptians. So between the Old kingdom and 18th dynasty arose a population called "Meshwesh".
One point to keep in mind though. Whenever some people discuss the ancient Libyans and Meshwesh, they often like to call them Berbers. This almost implies or suggests that Berbers originated with the arrival of lighter skinned populations in Northern Africa. Berber is a language that originated in East Africa to the South and West of Egypt. The meshwesh and other Northern coastal populations are people derived from various groups who arrived in Northern Africa in the distant past. They did not BRING the Berber language to Africa and therefore they were NOT the first Berbers. These populations often assimilated existing African traditions and languages, hence they did adopt the Berber language from populations already there and speaking the tongue. Therefore, the lighter skinned population is just one of the groups that have impacted the phenotype of Northern Africa, but they can not be claimed to be synonymous with the origin and development of Berber people, because the Berber language because the Berber language and North African culture in general predates these migrations.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: ... between the Old kingdom and 18th dynasty arose a population called "Meshwesh".
Don't know about arose more likely AE's became aware.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: ... the lighter skinned population is just one of the groups that have impacted the phenotype of Northern Africa, but they can not be claimed to be synonymous with the origin and development of Berber people, because the Berber language and North African culture in general predates these migrations.
Certainly not synonymous with the origin but most definitely a vital part of the development of aMazigh culture if Meshwesh is the first appearance of the radical 'm' - 'z/c' - 'gh/r'.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
I would say arose as the Egyptians were aware of "Libyans" prior to the Meswhesh, whence they were termed Tehenu or Temehu. The first Libyans found depicted in Egypt and identified as such did not look much different than the Egyptians. Therefore, the AE were aware of the people to the West long before the Meshwesh arrived.
As for the term 'm'-'z/c'-'gh/r', again, seeing as the people who originally spoke Berber originated to the South and migrated to the West of Egypt, there must have been a word that they used to identify themselves as well as distinguish themselves from others long before the appearance of a "Meshwesh" or any other coastal population who adopted the Berber language. I understand it is evidence of the derivation of the modern term, however, since most of our written records from this period were done by NON Berbers, ie Egyptians, then you can't necessarily link the two terms as implying a Berber identity when you do not know how those Berbers who were outside the realm of Egypt's closest neighbors identified themselves. Case in point, what did the Libyans of the 23rd dynasty refer to themselves as and were they related to the Berber speakers of the time? What about the inscriptions from the Oases of Egypt, do they provide evidence of the origin of the term "amazigh"? I understand your point, but I don't agree that the ethnic identity for Berber speaking populations centered around coastal populations, at least not 4000 years ago. Modern "Berber" identity is more a result of the history within the last 3000 years and is centered around the interaction between Berber speaking populations in the coastal areas with non Africans, including the introduction of the written language from Phoenicians. This and does not necessarily match how Berber speaking groups identified themselves 4000 years ago across the vast sweep of the Sahara into coastal North Africa.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I say aware because the AEs seem to be oblivious to "Libya' any further west than the nearest oases. For instance Carthage is late New Kingdom times yet where in AE records do we find Carthage mentioned in any kind of contact.
We don't know for sure how far westward of Cyrenaica was the Meshwesh homelands. They could've been as far away as Algeria.
But anyway the AE's seem pretty clueless about who inhabited what to them was Amenti.x3st "GhostLand" until folk from there quite violently burst in upon them.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: I would say arose as the Egyptians were aware of "Libyans" prior to the Meswhesh, whence they were termed Tehenu or Temehu. The first Libyans found depicted in Egypt and identified as such did not look much different than the Egyptians. Therefore, the AE were aware of the people to the West long before the Meshwesh arrived.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ But all in all, it goes without saying and is a basic fact (common sense) that these white populations were not indigenous to the African continent but entered it from the outside, and that all of this had no bearing to the development of Egyptian civilization despite what some (including one individual on this board) thinks!
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I don't know which white populations you're refering to. If you mean the ones from the northern shores of the Mediterranean its redundant to re-emphasize their whiteness as that's the gist of what I've proposed (that such folk were the cream in the coffee).
They're the non-indigenous component in the production of the "white" Africans. You aren't arguing that African chromosomes don't predominate in "white" North Africa, are you?
Ah, but they do. They comprise nearly three quarters, hence the "white" Africans are indeed indigenous.
Don't drag Egyptian civilization into this. Stay focused. The object under examination are those of the ancient "Libyans," and their descendents, who had, and have, extremely light complexions comparable to Europeans.
Posted by Miguel Antunes (Member # 13983) on :
Could it not be possible that these lighter Africans originated from an evolution of darker Africans? The same happened to lighter Eurasians in essence.
Looking at this map, one can see that the radiation in coastal north-west africa is basically the same as most of Iberia, Anatolia, and Southern parts of Italy and Greece, and China/Southern Korea/Southern Japan, so one could expect a similar level of pigmentation, at least to what's known as "olive skin".
There was mixing too of course, as the genes atest, but perhaps a combination of the two factors? Or the mixing increasing the lightness of the skin?
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I say aware because the AEs seem to be oblivious to "Libya' any further west than the nearest oases. For instance Carthage is late New Kingdom times yet where in AE records do we find Carthage mentioned in any kind of contact.
We don't know for sure how far westward of Cyrenaica was the Meshwesh homelands. They could've been as far away as Algeria.
But anyway the AE's seem pretty clueless about who inhabited what to them was Amenti.x3st "GhostLand" until folk from there quite violently burst in upon them.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: I would say arose as the Egyptians were aware of "Libyans" prior to the Meswhesh, whence they were termed Tehenu or Temehu. The first Libyans found depicted in Egypt and identified as such did not look much different than the Egyptians. Therefore, the AE were aware of the people to the West long before the Meshwesh arrived.
What I am saying is that the Meshwesh were not and are not the original Libyans or the first Westerners identified by the Egyptians. Therefore, when talking about the populations along the coasts of Northern Africa at the earliest periods of Egyptian history and earlier, you cannot assume that they were like the "meshwesh". North African and "Libyan" history did not start with the "meshwesh" and certainly not with light skinned migrants northern Africa. That is unless the original black populations of Northern Africa don't count.....
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Miguel Antunes: Could it not be possible that these lighter Africans originated from an evolution of darker Africans? The same happened to lighter Eurasians in essence.
Looking at this map, one can see that the radiation in coastal north-west africa is basically the same as most of Iberia, Anatolia, and Southern parts of Italy and Greece, and China/Southern Korea/Southern Japan, so one could expect a similar level of pigmentation, at least to what's known as "olive skin".
There was mixing too of course, as the genes atest, but perhaps a combination of the two factors? Or the mixing increasing the lightness of the skin?
I understand your point, however, look at where those color bands lie at in Africa. Most of the population of Africa was outside of those bands through most of Africa's history. Therefore, the populations who DID reach these areas would have had a predominant complexion based on where they originated. If they originated in the Sahara to the south they would have been dark. If they originated across the ocean they would have been light. We all agree that there has been mixing, but the issue here is WHEN the mixing in North Africa started to produce a MAJORITY of the population there with a lighter complexion. I and many others would argue that such a change did not occur until within the last 3,000 years, which is a very small amount of time compared to the 80,000 years of human presence in Africa.
Posted by Miguel Antunes (Member # 13983) on :
Well Doug, when the first Humans entered Europe they were dark too, and latter lighter skin was selected, the same with other Eurasian populations. So I don't argue that when they reached those areas they were dark, only that they could not have evolved lighter skin. But it's only a proposition.
Those fair Lybians AE depicted are the first drawings of fair North Africans, right? Though I doubt AE knew much about the area. There's the Mauri issue though, which implies that at least in those times some were still dark. Do the Romans/Phoenicians/Greeks etc mention any light people in Northern Africa?
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
So who made any such assumption? You?
The first people beyond an easy chariot ride into the desert were the Libu and the Meshwesh were further west and existed well before the Egyptians knew anything about them.
And again, if Meshwesh was Egyptic's best attempt at transcribing and sounding the name these people had for themselves then in all likelihood they were taMazight speakers.
In a map accompanying his article Western African Languages in Historical Perspective (seen below), Kay Williamson sees proto-Tamazight (the first "Berber" language)
1. originating in the Gharb Darfur region of Sudan 8kya 2. spreading from there to ___a. the Dongola Reach/3rd cataract Tmhhw and to ___b. the Air-Hoggar region 3. before proto-North Tamazight developed 4. and went to ___a. the Maghreb and then eastward to ____* Rebu/Libou and 5. proto-Zenaga left Air/Adrar des Ifores for ___a. the Tagant (southern Mauritania).
Here are some other mappings of the language ================================ SIDEBAR NOTE:in comparison to the above map Taureg corresponds to Air-Hoggar Air/Adrar regions, Atlas/Zenati/Nefusi corresponds to the Maghreb, Siwi roughly corresponds to Rebu/Libou, and Zenaga corresponds to the Tagant.
=================================
I think you're taking the colour issue too defensively. To quote an earlier post on this issue:
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: Nothing mysterious about "light skin" coastal North Africans, or about their origins in the African continent. Usually advocates who make it mysterious, are those who refuse to see facts relayed time and again, on a single factor: bias against the said "light skin" Africans on the account of their "outlier", so to speak, skin hue as far as the ranges in the rest of the African continent goes, notwithstanding that sections of coastal north Africans have their own biases against more southerly non-Tamazight speaking African groups, as well as non-Tamazight speakers to their north outside of the continent.
I can do nothing less than assume dynastic west Syrtean populations were like the Meshwesh, east Syrtean/Cyrenaican populations were like the Libu/Rebu, and "Alexandrian"/west delta/north oasis populations were like the Tjehenu, and southern oasis populations were like the Tjemehhu. That is unless I want to fabricate otherwise from my imagination instead of relying on what little archaeology evidence we have.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: What I am saying is that the Meshwesh were not and are not the original Libyans or the first Westerners identified by the Egyptians. Therefore, when talking about the populations along the coasts of Northern Africa at the earliest periods of Egyptian history and earlier, you cannot assume that they were like the "meshwesh". North African and "Libyan" history did not start with the "meshwesh" and certainly not with light skinned migrants northern Africa. That is unless the original black populations of Northern Africa don't count.....
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Miguel Antunes:
Well Doug, when the first Humans entered Europe they were dark too, and latter lighter skin was selected, the same with other Eurasian populations. So I don't argue that when they reached those areas they were dark, only that they could not have evolved lighter skin. But it's only a proposition.
UV radiation levels on the African continent, as your Jablonksi-Chaplin map demonstrates, and as other UV radiation maps show, are generally higher than that of Europe. The coastal north light toned Tamazight groups who are "outliers", in terms of skin shade gradients seen in the rest of the continent, have this feature, more likely because of historic gene flow from "Southwest Asia" and across the Mediterranean sea. If these "outlier" [in terms of skin shade] coastal North Africans underwent an "independent" parallel light skin pigmentation evolution with that of Europeans, then would studies on skin pigmentation genes not reveal this, just as it has done in the case of East Asians and Europeans?
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ Correct.
Posted by Nefar (Member # 13890) on :
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Mystery Solver is correct. In fact that issue was discussed several times, including here.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
OK now this is where Ishould've posted the below instead of in the rock art tomb painting Fulani thread:
There may be a better place to post this but, since I've included Saharan rock art depicting Africa's native whites in this thread, I'll put an opinion of Keita on Amazight speakers' colour here.
Indigenous whites is something I never took too seriously even when posed by Sergi seeing Bates' countering of that position. I've supposed creamy coloured Libyans to be primarily the result of communications with the north shore and island Mediterraneans due initially to neolithic trade (which I surmise included females as trade items) and lastly the Trojan War refugees (whole families).
Posted by Bro Dawud (Member # 11484) on :
It does catch you off guard when you meet an African who is classified as white in the Western World.
It really puts the race game into perspective.
I probably met like a couple of albinos in my lifetime and they are the west African types, so they have stereotypical "sub saharan" African features that makes it easy to identify them as Black.
Most Black/African people will *never* be able to distinguish Europeans from some Africans... (and I'm speaking purely in terms of genetic-ancestry here).
The problem to be solved on a large scale is Education and we are way behind, waay waay behind. The liars are educating our kids as we speak, at school and in their own homes. The situation is bleak.
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Bro Dawud,
Man go somewhere and shut up. You're too dumb to talk.
You sound like jeeves.
Matter of fact I bet your dumb sounding ass is jeeves.
Look man quit trying to mingle with the guest in an attempt to prove your intellect and just serve the horderves.
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
^ I liked the one better where bogles announced my posts read like Focault on speed. I laughed pretty good after looking him up.
Your loosing your edge, Pirate.
Btw, of course that's not me, i'm still Wb without any other accounts, plus i rarely ever even talk about "albinos" unless i'm talking about the full on complete lack of melanin medical condition .. though it's all relative i suppose.
And Bro D -- even that Egyptian guy who sued the U.S. government for a right to be called the opposite was one such "white" African.
I just think of some of them like the situation in South America, Mexico, the Mid East or where ever.
Africa and Europe are geographic regions - and demographic exchanges have flowed both ways - so for the (especially coastal) populations to look alike is nothing unexpected:
In precolonial times black Africans like Saint Maurice (Maur meaning black, it wasn't his real Egyptian name) went as far as England and Germany and the Keme-nu army in legend went as far North as Russia (and ausar showed us pictures of modern descendants). The Arab, Moorish (particulary BlackaMoor or "black at moorish complection"), and Roman political and executive influence was just as far spread in Europe as Maruice's travels and conversely, Asia's muslims have gone as far as NorthWest, Central and SouthEastern Africa and European slaves which were popular in North African Islamic polygamy went at least as far as Mali, West Africa. Not to mention the ancient Greeks and others in North Africa.
Posted by Bro Dawud (Member # 11484) on :
^ All good, but never taught in the schools available to most.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
What the **** do these last four posts have to do with reasoning out the why and wherefore of white or near white complexioned indigenous Africans in the Sahara and supra-Sahara in ancient and pre- historic times?
Please take this sociological chit-chat somewhere off my thread and in to the many many many threads of late already wasting time with that bullshit.
Thank you!
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
Today and yesterday, there was no white African.
The last white African was a Serbian!
Lion!
Posted by mentu (Member # 14537) on :
Al takruri, As already said , the mutation which caused white skin is not present in africa, this paticular mutation is associated with ice european environment and therefore DNA.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Take it up with Keita:
quote: The morphological features (light skin and eyes, etc.) of Berbers likely also developed in situ in the African context, at least in part, but also likely result from gene flow from Eurasia that was likely primarily maternally mediated.
How so in situ?
quote: ... restricted early Holocene populations from the northern Sahara who represented a skewed non- representative and non-random sample of the Saharan peoples who were evolving there after recolonisation with the decrease in aridity in the late Pleistocene; ...
Indigenous African whites/near whites have peaches and cream complexions not the roses and milk of pallour of European whites.
Heretofore I proposed the cream in the coffee or caramel of the black supra-Saharan Africans came from Aegean females (in the case of Libou) and Tyrhennian females (for Meshwesh). I based this on Sea Peoples/Trojan War refugees for the former and neolithic - chalcolithic trans-Mediterranean trade for the latter.
This still left me unanswered questions in regards to creamy Tjemehu/Tamehu/TMHHW already in early 19th dynasty times and whites in Saharan rock art that appear seemingly prior to beaker and obsidian relics of circa 1500 BCE.
Can you address these specifics?
Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: Today and yesterday, there was no white African.
The last white African was a Serbian!
Lion!
I have heard of various claims of "indigenous white Africans" based on rock paintings in the Sahara. The presence of these "long headed peoples" it is alleged, signifies Cakazoid expansion in the Berber area. But according to the 1997 book "The Berbers", by Michael Brett, Elizabeth Fentress - History - 1997 the reputed "whites" bear more resemblance to Upper Egyptians based on skeletal studies.
quote: "the original Saharans were 'negroid' and left behind their distinctive art and iconography in rock carvings and art."
""elongated white men with characteristic long hair and pointed beards. Some confirmation of this racial shift comes from physical anthropology, although the skeletons seem to show closer resemblance to groups from the upper Nile Valley than to contemporary material from the Maghreb."
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Again this is not a matter of Europeans or so-called Caucasians being indigenous Africans. Reread the essence of what Keita proposes, a "a skewed non- representative and non-random sample of the Saharan peoples who were evolving"
Brett and Fentris write about Mechta-Afalou being Neanderthal derived so I wouldn't take them too seriously when it comes to archaeo-anthropology.
For color examples of whites in the Saharan rock art I recommend Hacid though with certain reservations expressed elsewhere.
Ridicule is aweak argument.
Posted by Evergreen (Member # 12192) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Take it up with Keita:
quote: The morphological features (light skin and eyes, etc.) of Berbers likely also developed in situ in the African context, at least in part, but also likely result from gene flow from Eurasia that was likely primarily maternally mediated.
Evergreen Writes: This is conjecture on Keita's part. He has never conducted a peer-reviewed analysis on the origins of "light skin and eyes" in North Africa nor does he define what he means by the use of these terms.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Neith-Athena ------------
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Neth-Athena wrote:
quote:...the history of migrations and colonization that brought Eurasians from the Neolithic to the present time into North Africa
Could you possibly elaborate on this--bearing in mind the specific meaning of the term "Eurasian"? Maybe we can also learn--in terms of numbers--the significance of such migrations.
Re What to call the people of Africa
Why not be economical and consistent in the whole matter. For example, South Asians and East Asians differ significantly in terms of phenotype yet when described colour terms and eye shape terms are never brought up. Why not just speak in terms of regions--when it comes to Africa--West Africa, East Africa, Southern Africa and North Africa. Talk of "sub-Saharan" Africa is sheer racism--because as you wrote it is just euphemistic racist code for all the world's ills--maximally exaggerated for racist effect.
But to be more accurate one can use the same techniques as animal and plan biologists: an African would simply be a member of the human species whose phenotype offers evidence of being shaped by the environments of Africa. A significant phenotypical marker of such would be "hair form"--of which the African variety seems unique to Africa--coupled with a pigmentation range from very dark(Sudan) to yellow(some of the populations of North and Southern Africa).
I am no expert but from what I have understood by browsing through this forum during the Neolithic Sea Peoples went to the African coast and mixed with the local (Black - should go sans saying) population. Am I wrong? If so, please correct me.
This is the first time I'm hearing of neolithic "sea peoples". What is the evidence that? "Sea peoples" usually refer to a groups of people who arrived long after the Old Kingdom in North Africa.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: lamin -----
The movement of peoples throughout the world within the time periods that it takes for new genomic muatations to arise has been traced by the signatures left by haplotypes. In the case there is little evidence that Eurasian or West Asian haplotypes entered North Africa in any significant way before 1000 BC. After 1,000 BC Persians, Greeks, Romans, Turks then assorted Europeans entered North Africa which did transform the genomic profile of that period. but nothing as far back as the Neolithic as you claim.
Check out the movements of R, I, J, and E3 hapotypes plus the Ls and U6 into North Africa over time to confirm or disconfirm my point.
This sounds more like it. We can add to this the fact that only dark brown and red brown Tehenu appear in Old Kingdom representations of "Libyans" with features and hairstyles of later lighter complexioned Libyans in the tomb of Seti.
Your former characterization of such people as "mulatto" like would thus seem appropriate. This would also explain why the attire of modern Fulani/Fulata (Woodabe) wear very similar "attire of the late Libyans on the tomb of Seti I" (according to Donald Consentino, Maria Van Offelen and earlier scholars).
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Take it up with Keita:
quote: The morphological features (light skin and eyes, etc.) of Berbers likely also developed in situ in the African context, at least in part, but also likely result from gene flow from Eurasia that was likely primarily maternally mediated.
Evergreen Writes: This is conjecture on Keita's part. He has never conducted a peer-reviewed analysis on the origins of "light skin and eyes" in North Africa nor does he define what he means by the use of these terms.
And, like many other scholars in the discipline of genetics and physical anthropology of Egypt, Keita appears not to have had a very good grasp of the documented history of immigration and colonization of Egypt and the rest of North Africa.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
According to Manfred Bietak, the appearance of the flying gallop frescos in Egypt only date from the New Kingdom. Such frescoes were associated with Thera and Minoan culture. See - Charis: essays in honor of Sara A. Immerwahr by Ann Chapin p. 187 2004
Interestingly this art is found in places like Tassili with the Tifinagh, and "stick head" figures and bi-triangular figures similar to those found in Nubia. The bi-triangular and double axe schema is found everywhere in Tuareg culture today in headgear, jewelry and elsewhere. The origination of the flying gallop is thought to be associated in Syria and is associated with the Hyksos as well as early Shaft graves of Mycenae.
These ties may give credence to the Tuareg legends of their origins as descendants of Canaanites or Phoenicians who conquered Syria and Egypt advanced toward the Maghreb.
Rock art exhibiting "flying gallop" style from Tassili
Rock art exhibiting "flying gallop", bi-triangularisme, Tifinagh typical of late rock art
Bi-Triangular double axe still forms part of Tuareg headgear (Aumelidden/Lamtuna of Niger).
The double-axe, composed of two crescent shaped blades, is thought to have been an early symbol of the Mother Goddess.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Take it up with Keita:
quote: The morphological features (light skin and eyes, etc.) of Berbers likely also developed in situ in the African context, at least in part, but also likely result from gene flow from Eurasia that was likely primarily maternally mediated.
Evergreen Writes: This is conjecture on Keita's part. He has never conducted a peer-reviewed analysis on the origins of "light skin and eyes" in North Africa nor does he define what he means by the use of these terms.
And, like many other scholars in the discipline of genetics and physical anthropology of Egypt, Keita appears not to have had a very good grasp of the documented history of immigration and colonization of Egypt and the rest of North Africa.
Couple months back someone posted a lecture by Keita in England saying something similar about the 'white' Berbers.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
The ancestors of the Iforas Tuareg or "Ait Ifren", for example, are recorded as Chana or Djana (Khian) son of Yahyah son of Salatis or Isletan son of Warsak son of Dari son of Chacfoun (Apachnas) son of Bendouad or Adidat (Hadid) son of Imla son of Guerad son of Maghdis son of Herek son of Mazigh a great grandson of Badyan son of Canaan. recorded by Ibn Khaldun and found in MacMichael's History of the Arabs vol. II and other places.
Elsewhere it is said Ifren was son of Islitan, son of Misra, son of Zakiya, son of Warsik son of Adidat, son of Djana was through Mazigh a descendant Canaan of Ham.
Several of the above chiefs are undoubtedly the same as documented on Hyksos scarabs.
The known Hyksos rulers or shepherd-kings recorded by Eusebius, Josephus, Syncellus and even Leo Africanus, included Salatis, Khyan (Janias of Josephus), Apachnas or Apopi I(Chacfoun) whom Herodotus claims was Epaphus and Archles (Herak).
These people took over the Aegean as well according to tradition. Arabs record them as "Amalekites" or Himyarite kings of the Adites. They mention Adidat or Douad as Chedid. While Salatis is well known as Salih.
Ifuras Tuareg of Mali
The name Masikha or Mashek and Misrah and Misramah are well known names of ancient Yemenite tribes associated with the Mahra whom Hamdani and Khaldun equate with the Adites. See R. Khanams Encylopaedic Ethnography of Middle East and Central Asia vol. 1 p. 66 on the Masikha.
No doubt their remnant in Syria were the Ph'anakes of Manetho and "Phoenicians" that Josephus claims were the "Amalek shepherds".
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
This is a post of Neith-Athena's from another thread that I transposed here to be the initial post for the subject header.
I don't want to speak for Neith but I imagine she means neolithic people from the same areas the much later 19th Dynasty "Sea People" came from. I didn't take her literally.
My contributions don't begin until the 3rd post of this thread.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Neith-Athena ------------
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Neth-Athena wrote:
quote:...the history of migrations and colonization that brought Eurasians from the Neolithic to the present time into North Africa
Could you possibly elaborate on this--bearing in mind the specific meaning of the term "Eurasian"? Maybe we can also learn--in terms of numbers--the significance of such migrations.
Re What to call the people of Africa
Why not be economical and consistent in the whole matter. For example, South Asians and East Asians differ significantly in terms of phenotype yet when described colour terms and eye shape terms are never brought up. Why not just speak in terms of regions--when it comes to Africa--West Africa, East Africa, Southern Africa and North Africa. Talk of "sub-Saharan" Africa is sheer racism--because as you wrote it is just euphemistic racist code for all the world's ills--maximally exaggerated for racist effect.
But to be more accurate one can use the same techniques as animal and plan biologists: an African would simply be a member of the human species whose phenotype offers evidence of being shaped by the environments of Africa. A significant phenotypical marker of such would be "hair form"--of which the African variety seems unique to Africa--coupled with a pigmentation range from very dark(Sudan) to yellow(some of the populations of North and Southern Africa).
I am no expert but from what I have understood by browsing through this forum during the Neolithic Sea Peoples went to the African coast and mixed with the local (Black - should go sans saying) population. Am I wrong? If so, please correct me.
This is the first time I'm hearing of neolithic "sea peoples". What is the evidence that? "Sea peoples" usually refer to a groups of people who arrived long after the Old Kingdom in North Africa.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
This was a post authored by Lamin. I put it and Neith's post here because when I started elaborating the topic I didn't want my comments lost in a thread whose subject header had no bearing on the "White" Africa phenonena.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: lamin -----
The movement of peoples throughout the world within the time periods that it takes for new genomic muatations to arise has been traced by the signatures left by haplotypes. In the case there is little evidence that Eurasian or West Asian haplotypes entered North Africa in any significant way before 1000 BC. After 1,000 BC Persians, Greeks, Romans, Turks then assorted Europeans entered North Africa which did transform the genomic profile of that period. but nothing as far back as the Neolithic as you claim.
Check out the movements of R, I, J, and E3 hapotypes plus the Ls and U6 into North Africa over time to confirm or disconfirm my point.
This sounds more like it. We can add to this the fact that only dark brown and red brown Tehenu appear in Old Kingdom representations of "Libyans" with features and hairstyles of later lighter complexioned Libyans in the tomb of Seti.
Your former characterization of such people as "mulatto" like would thus seem appropriate. This would also explain why the attire of modern Fulani/Fulata (Woodabe) wear very similar "attire of the late Libyans on the tomb of Seti I" (according to Donald Consentino, Maria Van Offelen and earlier scholars).
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I don't understand what this informs us about the lighter skinned populations of ancient littoral North Africa.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: According to Manfred Bietak, the appearance of the flying gallop frescos in Egypt only date from the New Kingdom. Such frescoes were associated with Thera and Minoan culture. See - Charis: essays in honor of Sara A. Immerwahr by Ann Chapin p. 187 2004
Interestingly this art is found in places like Tassili with the Tifinagh, and "stick head" figures and bi-triangular figures similar to those found in Nubia. The bi-triangular and double axe schema is found everywhere in Tuareg culture today in headgear, jewelry and elsewhere. The origination of the flying gallop is thought to be associated in Syria and is associated with the Hyksos as well as early Shaft graves of Mycenae.
These ties may give credence to the Tuareg legends of their origins as descendants of Canaanites or Phoenicians who conquered Syria and Egypt advanced toward the Maghreb.
Rock art exhibiting "flying gallop" style from Tassili
Rock art exhibiting "flying gallop", bi-triangularisme, Tifinagh typical of late rock art
Bi-Triangular double axe still forms part of Tuareg headgear (Aumelidden/Lamtuna of Niger).
The double-axe, composed of two crescent shaped blades, is thought to have been an early symbol of the Mother Goddess.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Again, this doesn't tell us anything about the lighter skinned people of the littoral. There are threads on Saharans in general and the Kel Tamasheq in particular that are more relevant to your post.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The ancestors of the Iforas Tuareg or "Ait Ifren", for example, are recorded as Chana or Djana (Khian) son of Yahyah son of Salatis or Isletan son of Warsak son of Dari son of Chacfoun (Apachnas) son of Bendouad or Adidat (Hadid) son of Imla son of Guerad son of Maghdis son of Herek son of Mazigh a great grandson of Badyan son of Canaan. recorded by Ibn Khaldun and found in MacMichael's History of the Arabs vol. II and other places.
Elsewhere it is said Ifren was son of Islitan, son of Misra, son of Zakiya, son of Warsik son of Adidat, son of Djana was through Mazigh a descendant Canaan of Ham.
Several of the above chiefs are undoubtedly the same as documented on Hyksos scarabs.
The known Hyksos rulers or shepherd-kings recorded by Eusebius, Josephus, Syncellus and even Leo Africanus, included Salatis, Khyan (Janias of Josephus), Apachnas or Apopi I(Chacfoun) whom Herodotus claims was Epaphus and Archles (Herak).
These people took over the Aegean as well according to tradition. Arabs record them as "Amalekites" or Himyarite kings of the Adites. They mention Adidat or Douad as Chedid. While Salatis is well known as Salih.
Ifuras Tuareg of Mali
The name Masikha or Mashek and Misrah and Misramah are well known names of ancient Yemenite tribes associated with the Mahra whom Hamdani and Khaldun equate with the Adites. See R. Khanams Encylopaedic Ethnography of Middle East and Central Asia vol. 1 p. 66 on the Masikha.
No doubt their remnant in Syria were the Ph'anakes of Manetho and "Phoenicians" that Josephus claims were the "Amalek shepherds".
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Reminder: the posts here in this thread have to do with reasoning out the why and wherefore of white or near white complexioned indigenous Africans in the Sahara and supra-Sahara in ancient and pre- historic times.
Posted by Neith-Athena (Member # 10040) on :
I have not had time to post here in ages and have only read some posts once in a great while when schoolwork allowed me to. Regarding my previous post, it was a misunderstanding on my part based on my quickly perusing EgyptSearch history when I first discovered this great forum.
Anyway, regarding the bi-triangular double axe, I learned about it when I went to Greece, including Crete, two summers ago. Historians of the region do not really know what it stands for, even though one British scholar at a site that my group and I visited on Crete conjectured that it had to do with mother goddesses. Takruri and other veteran posters on African migrations to Greece, is this possibly a link between the Tuareg or ancient Berbers and the ancient Minoans?
Posted by Evergreen (Member # 12192) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Reminder: the posts here in this thread have to do with reasoning out the why and wherefore of white or near white complexioned indigenous Africans in the Sahara and supra-Sahara in ancient and pre- historic times.
Evergreen Writes:
Well framed question. To further frame this discussion we should recognize the ecological landscape of the saharan and supra-saharan regions during the late pleistocene. During the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) human populations were restricted to the Nile and the coastal regions of North Africa. Carrying capacity would indicate limited population density in coastal regions and high population density in the Nile during this time frame. Genetic evidence indicates that few if any of the genetic lineages present on the coast during the LGM are present in modern African populations. This is consistent with low population density in coastal North Africa and a genetic takeover of coastal North Africa by Nilotic Africans during the early Holocene.
The y-chromosome marker E-M78 is the defining northern Nilotic marker and emerged in southern Egypt/Northern Sudan from the "sub-Saharan" marker E-M35 sometime just prior to the LGM. The y-chromosome marker E-M81 is the defining NW African and Berber marker. This lineage emerged from marker E-M35 sometime during the mid-to-late Holocene (possibly the Bronze Age). The emergence of E-M81 directly from ancestral E-M35 would imply that the "Berbers" descend from a group that migrated from deep inner Africa relatively recently. If the "super-tropical" Naqada Egyptians descend from an ancestral group that was present in north Africa prior to the LGM why wouldn't the more recently migrated original "Berbers" be tropically adapted?
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Neith-Athena: I have not had time to post here in ages and have only read some posts once in a great while when schoolwork allowed me to. Regarding my previous post, it was a misunderstanding on my part based on my quickly perusing EgyptSearch history when I first discovered this great forum.
Anyway, regarding the bi-triangular double axe, I learned about it when I went to Greece, including Crete, two summers ago. Historians of the region do not really know what it stands for, even though one British scholar at a site that my group and I visited on Crete conjectured that it had to do with mother goddesses. Takruri and other veteran posters on African migrations to Greece, is this possibly a link between the Tuareg or ancient Berbers and the ancient Minoans?
Not only the Minoans but Mycenae, but the Aegean in general.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Reminder: the posts here in this thread have to do with reasoning out the why and wherefore of white or near white complexioned indigenous Africans in the Sahara and supra-Sahara in ancient and pre- historic times.
Evergreen Writes:
Well framed question. To further frame this discussion we should recognize the ecological landscape of the saharan and supra-saharan regions during the late pleistocene. During the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) human populations were restricted to the Nile and the coastal regions of North Africa. Carrying capacity would indicate limited population density in coastal regions and high population density in the Nile during this time frame. Genetic evidence indicates that few if any of the genetic lineages present on the coast during the LGM are present in modern African populations. This is consistent with low population density in coastal North Africa and a genetic takeover of coastal North Africa by Nilotic Africans during the early Holocene.
The y-chromosome marker E-M78 is the defining northern Nilotic marker and emerged in southern Egypt/Northern Sudan from the "sub-Saharan" marker E-M35 sometime just prior to the LGM. The y-chromosome marker E-M81 is the defining NW African and Berber marker. This lineage emerged from marker E-M35 sometime during the mid-to-late Holocene (possibly the Bronze Age). The emergence of E-M81 directly from ancestral E-M35 would imply that the "Berbers" descend from a group that migrated from deep inner Africa relatively recently. If the "super-tropical" Naqada Egyptians descend from an ancestral group that was present in north Africa prior to the LGM why wouldn't the more recently migrated original "Berbers" be tropically adapted?
I am not certain about the wide range of Berber-speakers and it is important to remember what Berbers were described as until a few hundred years ago. But, I personally have never ever seen a true Berber that wasn't tropically adapted. That is why most still have deep brown complexions like their Afar Ethiopian, Watutsi, Woodabe, Rendili, Somali relatives. Many are in fact superbly adapted to super hot arid climate they apparently emerged from possessing ultra long limb proportions and ultradolichocephaly. The answer to where Berbers received these adaptations is the answer to where Nilotes originated.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: What the **** do these last four posts have to do with reasoning out the why and wherefore of white or near white complexioned indigenous Africans in the Sahara and supra-Sahara in ancient and pre- historic times?
The whole question of white or near white complexioned "indigenous Africans" in the Sahara in ancient prehistoric times is speculative and pushing matters since there is no evidence of groups of indigenous "whites" in Africa, except for a few incidences of Moon faced women in rock art which may have been stylistic.
Archeology has shown from settlements of Greeks or peoples of Sicilian origin after the beginning of the iron age on coastal north Africa Kabyle area (between Algeria and Tunisia). Is this indigenous? There was movement or trickle of lateral headed peoples into northern Egypt between the 2nd and 6th dynasties which has long been known. But, neither archeology nor physical anthropological evidence attests to an early indigenous presence of "white" groups.
As this is not the first time you are posting these questions I would like to hear what evidence has been produced aside from this that has shown such a presence. The genetic evidence certainly doesn't prove otherwise. Egyptian tomb paintings haven't shown otherwise.
There is also the problem of when the iron age and New kingdom actually began and the dating of the tomb of Seti showing fair-skinned Libyans, as more recent alternative chronologies have dated the New Kingdom much later than conventional or traditional dating.
I believe fair-skinned Libyans were basically early Africans that had been modified or lightened by the presence of iron age European mercenaries or "sea people" probably dating after the start of the New Kingdom.
Perhaps modified like the Tuareg group below who've also absorbed Syrians and other peoples in recent times (according to Bornu manuscripts).
My point in bringing up Hyksos origins was to show that the name Mazikh or Imazigh from which it has been suggested the name "Mashwesh" was derived is of Hyksos i.e. Syro-Arabian Meluchha or Amlukh (Hyksos) or Musuri origin as were the dark-skinned people first and still called Masikh in Arabia. The appearance of fair-skinned people among North African Mazikh, known as "Ethiopians" even in Roman texts - as I have mentioned more than once on Egyptsearch forum - must mean that there was some recent iron age admixture of some of the Mazikh with non-African proto-Greeks or sea peoples. That is if the name Mashwesh truly is a version of "Mazigh".
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
[QUOTE]Originally posted by alTakruri: [QB] This is a post of Neith-Athena's from another thread that I transposed here to be the initial post for the subject header.
I don't want to speak for Neith but I imagine she means neolithic people from the same areas the much later 19th Dynasty "Sea People" came from. I didn't take her literally.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by alTakruri: [qb] Neith-Athena ------------
I didn't understand this explanation so I won't respond, but I'm supposing at this stage people on this forum understand the difference between Neolithic peoples of Europe, i.e. predominantly African-looking people - and later Bronze and Iron Age Eurasiatics who were ancestral to modern mainly fair-skinned Greeks and Middle Eastern people speaking Afro-Asiatic dialects (genetics not withstanding).
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
My original personal opinion was that north Meds creamed the old NA's coffee but not from NM males rather from NM females impregnated by NA males who procurred them from the north and island Mediterranean.
has broadened my original personal opinion to acknowledge a partial African minor origin in addition to the foreign major accretion which Keita also acknowledged.
In my personal opinion the BG 4:5 v30 renditions of creamy coloured TMHHW as the norm rather than an anomally means those "Libyans" were already very light skinned centuries before the 19th Dynasty.
At any rate, by this time, Egyptians classified them as reds in distinction to themselves and the Sudanis as blacks.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: There is also the problem of when the iron age and New kingdom actually began and the dating of the tomb of Seti showing fair-skinned Libyans, as more recent alternative chronologies have dated the New Kingdom much later than conventional or traditional dating.
I believe fair-skinned Libyans were basically early Africans that had been modified or lightened by the presence of iron age European mercenaries or "sea people" probably dating after the start of the New Kingdom.
... there was some recent iron age admixture of some of the Mazikh with non-African proto-Greeks or sea peoples. That is if the name Mashwesh truly is a version of "Mazigh".
Posted by Evergreen (Member # 12192) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: My original personal opinion was that north Meds creamed the old NA's coffee but not from NM males rather from NM females impregnated by NA males who procurred them from the north and island Mediterranean.
Evergreen Writes: Data analysis tells us that NW Africans and NE Africans have distinct mtDNA profiles. Hence they have divergent histories from a maternal standpoint.
Posted by Evergreen (Member # 12192) on :
has broadened my original personal opinion to acknowledge a partial African minor origin in addition to the foreign major accretion which Keita also acknowledged.
Evergreen Writes: Keita's assertion above is not rooted in peer-reviewed scientific inquiry.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
What? Publication outside of a peer-reviewed journal makes information unreliable? Better throw out all the books in the university libraries' stacks. Say bye-bye to doctoral dissertations too.
We've quoted Dana's published works here before also, guess that was no good since she wasn't peer-reviewed.
She's not alone, the vast majority of citations presented in these forums were from scholars' articles and books that weren't published in peer-reviewed journals, now worthless.
Thus saith the word of God has been replaced by so printeth the journals of Peer-reviewer.
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen: Keita's assertion above is not rooted in peer-reviewed scientific inquiry.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Any examples of "vast majority" of such citations?
Posted by Evergreen (Member # 12192) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Publication outside of a peer-reviewed journal makes information unreliable?
Evergreen Writes:
Not neccessarily, as long as there is a sound research basis.
What is the research basis to Keita's hypothesis? How does his research map to the current understanding of SLC24A5, OCA2 and other genetic signatures that speak to variation in melanin level and eye color?
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Ok, I too would like to know more behind his position like the identity of the evolving, restricted, skewed, non-representative, non-random Saharans that were supposed to be unusually light skinned as it does seem to buck the findings in 2006 about true transparent white skin. I had imagined the kind of white skin that's opaque to translucent with peach tints not rosy ones.
The colour of this TMHH I could imagine to be what he could mean but no, he's not as light as those stark white images that show up on Saharan rock art and if true to life they are problematic because they don't seem to resemble north Meds (but I guess I should get more analytical toward their attire at some point).
Posted by SEEKING (Member # 10105) on :
Is there any chance that the white images could be albinos?
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by SEEKING: Is there any chance that the white images could be albinos?
No.
A better question would be why is the arm on the white figure painted brown and why does the figure have the same body type as the other figure. Lastly, what do Africans who paint their body white to this day to the south of the Sahara have to do with these ancient Saharan peoples?
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
I guess my major problem is why in looking at so many paintings of "Libyans" one sees mainly those with reddish brown paint wearing off. This is not restricted to Libyans, but to Old Kingdom Egyptians, Syro-Canaanites and so called "Sea Peoples" like the Philistines (Peleset) and Hittites.
Are the paintings with red brown paint faded off the "Lebou" and below supposed to be evidence of "white Libyans", "Meshwesh" and "Sea Peoples"?
If so why are they represented the same color as Ramses?
Lebou
Another Lebou rendition photo with faded paint
Paint faded from Ramses with "Libyans"
"Philistine" with faded paint
Notice the brown paint faded from this "Libyan's" back leg
And why does the Phillistine below WITHOUT THE PAINT COMING OFF on the tomb of Medinet Habu show that they were actually a dark brown color.
One thing is certain, and that is that as late as the time of the Ramessids and Seti many of these "Libyans" and "Sea Peoples" were far from being "creamy-colored".
Maybe someone needs to take up the study of chemical analysis of ancient Egyptian paints on this forum before some museum curator comes along and repaints them.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
In my view the man in the top photo is a direct descendant of the ancient Tjehenu who have been found to have been represented similarly, but in a darker brown color in the Old Kingdom.
The braided hair-style and side-lock as well as the identical designs and tattoos on the costumes of the Libyans on the tomb of Seti make it likely that they are the ancestors of the modern Fellata or Woodabe Fulani. These people were called Tjehenou in the Western delta, and in Kharga Temehou during the Old Kingdom. The Lebou were derived from them as were the Imakuhek and Kuhek.
If the Maazauaza or Meshwesh did look different in New Kingdom times than that was apparently from Euro-Mediterranean infiltration after the Old Kingdom. The fact is they retained a similar appearance to earlier brown Libyans or Fellata and supposedly called themselves "Maa" which interestingly is a name for the Maasaai-Samburu group of dialects.
This still probably has little to do with the Caucasian appearance of many modern coastal Berbers calling themselves Masmuda, Sanhaja, Zenata, etc. A much more recent Eurasian and European genetic impact on the coasts of modern North Africa can not be understated. As ancient and Midieval documents are quite clear on what the Berbers on the coasts looked like. Except for the Cyrene area (a place of Greek and Scythian things) and Roman settlements - the coast was still dominated by mainly Ethiopic, i.e., Berber people - Mezikes, Mucateni or Uakutameni(Ketama or Makitan), Barzu Fulitani, Sanhaja (Lamtuna, Lamta, Gazzula), Zenata (Nafusa, Iforas Pharusii), Masmuda (Ghomara, Haskura of the Riff and Atlas)- all groups referred to as "black Africans" and or Ethiopians up until the 14th century.
The surprise is that even in the 19th century certain European colonialists appear not to reference fair-skinned Kabyles as part of the Berbers of Kabylia, or perhaps just weren't aware of their existence.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by SEEKING: Is there any chance that the white images could be albinos?
Or yet, could the so-called "white figures", which some take too literally, be just another expression of dichotomizing African groups by the painter/artist, just as the Kemetou and Beninese dichotomized African groups at times?
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
No one is denying there were brown skinned "Libyans." We've made that point here and concluded that up to past the age of Islam the further westward NAs were dark enough to be classed with blacks using Aeschylus, Manilius, and al~Jahiz as written proofs.
Denying that there were creamy coloured Tjemehu in 19th Dynasty AE art is an impossible premise.
What this thread seeks is not to prove ancient "Libyans" as a whole were non-white. What this thread seeks is to explain the origins of the creamy complexioned ancient Libyans depicted in AE art and the people painted using white for their skin coloring in Saharan art.
There were ALs much lighter than the AE norm and we find them in 19th dynasty pharaonic tombs in the sacred afterlife text Book of Gates: Gate of Teka Hra vignette 30 where they, along with the Levantines, are classed as red in distinction to Egyptians and Sudanis who are classed as black.
What is the source for such minority ALs who are of light complexion? That's what we're trying to arrive at.
Genetic reports offer us no help as the historians on their teams repeat as a mantra that "Eurasian" mtDNA only came on the scene after Islam. Yet we see "whites" in AE art and Saharan art. They are not figures of the imagination nor can all of them be explained away as blacks in whiteface.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: I guess my major problem is why in looking at so many paintings of "Libyans" one sees mainly those with reddish brown paint wearing off. This is not restricted to Libyans, but to Old Kingdom Egyptians, Syro-Canaanites and so called "Sea Peoples" like the Philistines (Peleset) and Hittites.
Are the paintings with red brown paint faded off the "Lebou" and below supposed to be evidence of "white Libyans", "Meshwesh" and "Sea Peoples"?
If so why are they represented the same color as Ramses?
Lebou
Another Lebou rendition photo with faded paint
Notice the brown paint faded from this "Libyan's" back leg
. . . .
One thing is certain, and that is that as late as the time of the Ramessids and Seti many of these "Libyans" and "Sea Peoples" were far from being "creamy-colored".
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Examining a zoom of the questioned painting reveals that only his frontside is painted white. Not only is his arm painted brown but so is his head and face and the leftmost visible portions of his back, buttocks, and leg as well as his right forearm. This painting thus can't be used to support Saharan "whites" in Bovidian era/style rock art.
____________________________
Also placing it in context (I think Hachid's book may have the entire scene intact) the whitened guy appears to be part of the pastoralist group.
My take is, some kind of "entertainment" is taking place and I have no guess as to what is attached to the waists of the "entertainers".
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by SEEKING: Is there any chance that the white images could be albinos?
No.
A better question would be why is the arm on the white figure painted brown and why does the figure have the same body type as the other figure. Lastly, what do Africans who paint their body white to this day to the south of the Sahara have to do with these ancient Saharan peoples?
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Examining a zoom of the questioned painting reveals that only the man's frontside is painted white. Not only is his arm painted brown but so is his head and face and the leftmost visible parts of the back, buttocks, and leg, as well as his right forearm.
I thus cannot use this painting in support of Saharan "whites" in Bovidian era/style rock art.
___________
Also placing it in context (I think Hachid's book may have the entire scene intact) the whitened guy appears to be part of the pastoralist group.
My take is, some kind of "entertainment" is taking place and I have no guess as to what is attached to the waists of the "entertainers".
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by SEEKING: Is there any chance that the white images could be albinos?
No.
A better question would be why is the arm on the white figure painted brown and why does the figure have the same body type as the other figure. Lastly, what do Africans who paint their body white to this day to the south of the Sahara have to do with these ancient Saharan peoples?
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
If we want to deal with the the white images of Temehou we will have to acknowledge the fact that the Temehou were depicted as much purely European like as much as creamy-colored Africans. As is obvious, Egyptians only used such names as Aamu and Temehu in a general sense for of populations of diverse origin and appearance next to them. The question then becomes where did the early European-looking Temehu (who look nothing like modern Europeans and nothing like Africans (in attire or hairstyle) shown in Diop's book -African Origins of Civilization - come from. I believe it would be of benefit to look at the northern Mediterranean as you suggested rather than making connections with modern North African populations.
As everyone knows on this forum there are plenty of individuals implying Eurasian "Berber" dna dates back to the Paleolithic though it appears to be mostly attributable to recent amalgamation.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
DJ mentioned scholars suggesting a relationship of the Tjemehu with fairer skinned Kabyles.
Since the biology and culture of modern fair-skinned kabyle people (according to Berber specialists like Gabriel Camps) have many biological and cultural traits of modern and ancient Greeks and other EuroMediterraneans it would be simpler to assume they are related to these people as well as Romans and later European Balkan (Turkish) settlers documented as being in the region.
Archeology in the region shows late or iron age links to Sicily/Sardinian area which could show represent the Greek or Sardinian link.
Posted by Evergreen (Member # 12192) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: ....the biology....of modern fair-skinned kabyle people .... have many biological and cultural traits of modern and ancient Greeks and other EuroMediterraneans it would be simpler to assume they are related to these people as well as Romans and later European Balkan (Turkish) settlers documented as being in the region.
Evergreen Writes: This is just not true. NW Africans have y-chromosome patterns that are predominately African and mtDNA patterns that are predominiately SW (NOT SE) European in origin.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: ....the biology....of modern fair-skinned kabyle people .... have many biological and cultural traits of modern and ancient Greeks and other EuroMediterraneans it would be simpler to assume they are related to these people as well as Romans and later European Balkan (Turkish) settlers documented as being in the region.
Evergreen Writes: This is just not true. NW Africans have y-chromosome patterns that are predominately African and mtDNA patterns that are predominiately SW (NOT SE) European in origin.
Obviously not all NW Africans are predominantly African and if the female genetics show modern SW European and not SE European origin than it probably speaks to more recent influences.
Large numbers of French, Italian and Spanish captives were brought into Algeria, along with Greeks. who then became mercenaries and helped to bring in populations from villages of southern Europe. Some villages are said, in fact, to have become depopulated.
From Algeria: A Country Study, American University Foreign Area Studies, 1986 p. 23
"By 1600 the population of Algiers had grown to approximately 100,000 of whom perhaps one-third were renegades - Spanish, Greek, Italian and French captives who had apostazed and become "Turks by profession," manning the Barbary corsairs that preyed on shipping and raided the European coasts of the western Mediterranean to capture and carry away hostages to be held for ransom or as merchandise for the slave markets. During the 'golden age' of Barbary piracy in the seventeeth century, the city's slave population is estimated to have numbered as high as 30,000."
Similar commerce occured to help create other cities along the coast. So I guess that helps settle the matter.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Don't know how much is has to do with skin colour as far as the extreme whiteness modern Euros have, but this report posits the likelihood of breeding on Eurasian females by NA males to go back to the "Mechta-Afalou" and it also advocates continuity in Eurasian mtDNA prevalence over a 12ky period from 10,000 BCE to now.
Its long been known speculated even based on similarities anthropological attributes Mechta Afalou, i.e. types found in Ibero-Maurusian and Jebel Sahaba in Nubia,- dolichocephalic Cro-magnons in Europe and other Paleolithic-mesolithic populations in Europe and Eurasia were related. Modern genetic-based studies on crania have said the same thing.
"As the saying goes, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck..."
On the other hand, more recent or modern peoples in Eurasia have to some extent absorbed ancient Eurasiatics and thus genetic continuity to some degree would be expected.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Anatolian art (Chatal Huyuk in Turkey)
Loring Brace was suprised to discover, based on his studies on genetic traits of European and Eurasiatic crania, that these blacks were not closely linked to modern people around the Mediterranean. He stated, “Modern Europeans ranging all of the way from Scandinavia to Eastern Europe and throughout the Mediterranean on to the Middle East show that they are closely related to each other. The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants..."
Another wall mural from Chatal Huyuk
Afro-Mediterraneans predominated in "Eurasia" until the latter part of the Bronze Age - as evidenced by crania and skeletons and art depictions.
As with this art, rock art of other peoples found in the Syro-Arabian deserts and around the Mediterranean differ from the later portrayal of Europoid "Eurasians", a stockier built, hairsute people who portray themselves in later art in the same area of Turkey with fair-skins, beards, and longer straight hair.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Other drawings from Chatal Huyuk
The depictions of these people and those of the ancient Saharans and East Africans could probably be mistaken for one another.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Chatal Huyuk is far from Iberia. It would help this thread to include pre-historic art from Iberia and western Mediterranean islands.
They, if showing females and from the time period mentioned, would throw more light on the topic.
BTW Body type isn't always an indicator of mtDNA or nrY chromosome genotype.
Taforalt shows Eurasian mtDNA in NAs going back 12kys. This implies, in NW Africa at least, that it was customary for littoral NAs to import their females from outside of Africa even that long ago.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Chatal Huyuk is far from Iberia because Eurasia is. You mentioned Eurasia not Iberia, i.e. Spain and Portugal.
It would also be of help if the two (Eurasia and Iberia) weren't confused.
Nevertheless, Iberian art shows people of similar complexion and non-Europoid appearance.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Taforalt shows Eurasian mtDNA in NAs going back 12kys. This implies, in NW Africa at least, that it was customary for littoral NAs to import their females from outside of Africa even that long ago.
What it more likely shows is movement of populations and the similar origin of early NW Africans and early Eurasiatics.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I just want to be clear about what you're saying so I ask if you mean -- and assuming you read Kefi and Rhouda -- that mtDNA haplogroups CRS and other H or U, and JT, and V derived in Africa?
These studies cannot be ignored because they conflict with previously held convictions. They must be met head on, analysed and critiqued where we find disagreement.
For instancce, in the PPt Kefi throws out TafVIII. Is it in order to deny an inner African component in epipaleolithic Taforalt? It is the only sample of possible L3, M, or N affiliation. There were only two U6 samples yet Kefi did not exclude them among originators of "Ibero-Maurusians."
Clearly if the L3/M/N individual was found at Taforalt then she was just as much an "Ibero-Maurusian" originator as the two U6 females were. 4% is as weighty as 8% when the true heavy weight ranks in at 50%.
Also, it is very significant that an L3/M/N female was living that far north so near the very shoreline of N Africa at that point in time with her other African mtDNA sisters of the U6 haplogroup.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Its long been known speculated even based on similarities anthropological attributes Mechta Afalou, i.e. types found in Ibero-Maurusian and Jebel Sahaba in Nubia,- dolichocephalic Cro-magnons in Europe and other Paleolithic-mesolithic populations in Europe and Eurasia were related. Modern genetic-based studies on crania have said the same thing.
"As the saying goes, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck..."
On the other hand, more recent or modern peoples in Eurasia have to some extent absorbed ancient Eurasiatics and thus genetic continuity to some degree would be expected.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Remember the littoral NA nrY chromosomes are predominantly African, only the mtDNA is mostly non-African. Can the same be shown for SW Europe.
Anyway, part of the point of the thread is identifying origins of "white" skin in NAs and yes it's a given there've been population movements. How could there have been static populations across such a broad swath of land area?
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Taforalt shows Eurasian mtDNA in NAs going back 12kys. This implies, in NW Africa at least, that it was customary for littoral NAs to import their females from outside of Africa even that long ago.
What it more likely shows is movement of populations and the similar origin of early NW Africans and early Eurasiatics.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
[QUOTE]Originally posted by alTakruri: [QB] Remember the littoral NA nrY chromosomes are predominantly African, only the mtDNA is mostly non-African. Can the same be shown for SW Europe.
Anyway, part of the point of the thread is identifying origins of "white" skin in NAs and yes it's a given there've been population movements. How could there have been static populations across such a broad swath of land area?
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche: [qb]
Why would Europeans be shown to be the same as NAs. Europe has a completely different history then does modern North Africa? I must be missing something here.
I also never said anything about static populations.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Currently Eurasia refers to the super-continent composed of Europe and Asia and is not limited to the region where Europe and Asia abutt as it was defined in older social sciences where it also meant a person who had one parent who was European and one parent who was Asian.
Eurasian mtDNA applies to any and all DNA that did not originate in continental Africa. I, and a few others, class the Arabian tectonic plate lands as geological Africa and so class people and haplotypes/haplogroups orininating there as African not Eurasian, but that point of view is not held in consensus here.
Sorry, maybe I should've supplied these definitions earlier instead of taking it for granted being here and seeing the term used that way on these forums by the veterans who were here before I got here that all would understand it that way.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Chatal Huyuk is far from Iberia because Eurasia is. You mentioned Eurasia not Iberia, i.e. Spain and Portugal.
It would also be of help if the two (Eurasia and Iberia) weren't confused.
Nevertheless, Iberian art shows people of similar complexion and non-Europoid appearance.
Posted by Evergreen (Member # 12192) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Don't know how much is has to do with skin colour as far as the extreme whiteness modern Euros have, but this report posits the likelihood of breeding on Eurasian females by NA males to go back to the "Mechta-Afalou" and it also advocates continuity in Eurasian mtDNA prevalence over a 12ky period from 10,000 BCE to now.
Evergreen Writes: Kefi's research is a good example of non-multidisciplinary research. Kefi is a geneticist. This research focused on the extraction and genetic analysis of late pleistocene Taforalt remains from NW Africa. The results of this research do not provide evidence of continuity between the Taforalt and neolithic, Bronze Age and later "Berber"populations. In fact, archaeology, linguistics, genetic analysis and cranial analysis indicate east to west migration into a landscape with low population density.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
That's true for the male component which was completely overlooked by Kefi and probably by intent to avoid recognizing any sub-Saharan input within the now dominant strain of NAs.
But what about the female component? Is it not predominantly SW European making the movement from the north toward the south and them both southerly and toward the east?
It seems Saharan and supra-Saharan NAs have to be looked at seperately by sex to find evidence pro or con for continuity if such exists for them throughout time, no?
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
al "Hot Indonesian Chicks" Takruri wrote: ------------------------------- What this thread seeks is not to prove ancient "Libyans" as a whole were non-white. What this thread seeks is to explain the origins of the creamy complexioned ancient Libyans depicted in AE art and the people painted using white for their skin coloring in Saharan art. -------------------------------
Maybe they are just a reflection of African diversity. Your color struck ass is proving to be one of the more imbecillic posters ever on this for forum.
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
dana marniche wrote: -------------------------------- This still probably has little to do with the Caucasian appearance --------------------------------
What is a caucasian appearance?
Posted by Evergreen (Member # 12192) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: But what about the female component? Is it not predominantly SW European making the movement from the north toward the south and them both southerly and toward the east?
Evergreen Writes:
Keep in mind that we are focused on the superficial phenetic characteristics of skin color on this thread. The SLC24A5 locus is said to explain between 25–38% of the European-African difference in skin melanin variation. This trait seems to have evolved in SE Europe **after** the period in which the sampled Taforalt were to have lived.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Precisely why I wrote "Don't know how much [th]is has to do with skin colour as far as the extreme whiteness modern Euros have" when I introduced Kefi's work into the discussion.
What explains the skin colour variation in other populations outside of Africa who are on average lighter than most Africans?
What explains the 62-75% bulk of the European- African difference in skin melanin variation having nothing to do with SLC24A5?
Could such factors have influenced the colour of Eurasian mtDNA contributors to the Taforalt epipaleolithic population?
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by argyle104: dana marniche wrote: -------------------------------- This still probably has little to do with the Caucasian appearance --------------------------------
What is a caucasian appearance?
This is a good question, argyle. When I said "Caucasoid appearance", I meant in the way it is popularly used for modern European people. When I say modern European people I separate them from ancient neolithic, mesolithic and paleolithic peoples who were apparently largely of black African affiliation.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
And for the sake of this discussion, when I say modern European peoples I include Eurasiatics, or people of European descent in Asia.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Chatal Huyuk is far from Iberia. It would help this thread to include pre-historic art from Iberia and western Mediterranean islands.
They, if showing females and from the time period mentioned, would throw more light on the topic.
BTW Body type isn't always an indicator of mtDNA or nrY chromosome genotype.
Taforalt shows Eurasian mtDNA in NAs going back 12kys. This implies, in NW Africa at least, that it was customary for littoral NAs to import their females from outside of Africa even that long ago.
I still don't understand why Eurasian related mtDNA of 12,000 years ago would have to mean some Eurasians were necessarily imported. DNA findings concur with other genetic evidenc as brought forth by Brace and morphological and osteological and archeological evidence which suggests a close affiliation between mesolithic and neolithic peoples across Europe, the Mediterranean and northern Africa.
Brace does say "Eurasia" (western Europe extending to Asia) was occupied mainly by peoples similar to populations in northern and northeast Africa up until the Bronze Age. He also says that there were other populations that were found at a few neolithic sites that correspond to peoples now living in much of Europe or Eurasia.
A relevant question is what if anything do dna studies say about these two "European" or "Eurasiatic" types that were already obviously distinct in the neolithic?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Okay! DJ is back from his Christmas vacation, and as usual he is overwhelmed by the pounds of scholarly discussions he has missed! So far I've only been able to read what I've missed in this bumped thread. So where to begin?...
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Why don't we begin with my last question because I'm baffled as to why it isn't being addressed.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: This sounds more like it. We can add to this the fact that only dark brown and red brown Tehenu appear in Old Kingdom representations of "Libyans" with features and hairstyles of later lighter complexioned Libyans in the tomb of Seti.
The fact that all early representations of Libyans as being of the same complexion of Egyptians has been made time and again in this forum.
quote:Your former characterization of such people as "mulatto" like would thus seem appropriate. This would also explain why the attire of modern Fulani/Fulata (Woodabe) wear very similar "attire of the late Libyans on the tomb of Seti I" (according to Donald Consentino, Maria Van Offelen and earlier scholars).
Takruri addressed this in several threads discussing the origin of the Fulani, most recently here. While there is similarity in dress there are also obvious differences as well as differences in georgraphic range and language between the Wodaabe proper and the ancient Libyans.
quote: According to Manfred Bietak, the appearance of the flying gallop frescos in Egypt only date from the New Kingdom. Such frescoes were associated with Thera and Minoan culture. See - Charis: essays in honor of Sara A. Immerwahr by Ann Chapin p. 187 2004
Interestingly this art is found in places like Tassili with the Tifinagh, and "stick head" figures and bi-triangular figures similar to those found in Nubia. The bi-triangular and double axe schema is found everywhere in Tuareg culture today in headgear, jewelry and elsewhere. The origination of the flying gallop is thought to be associated in Syria and is associated with the Hyksos as well as early Shaft graves of Mycenae.
These ties may give credence to the Tuareg legends of their origins as descendants of Canaanites or Phoenicians who conquered Syria and Egypt advanced toward the Maghreb.
Rock art exhibiting "flying gallop" style from Tassili
Rock art exhibiting "flying gallop", bi-triangularisme, Tifinagh typical of late rock art
Bi-Triangular double axe still forms part of Tuareg headgear (Aumelidden/Lamtuna of Niger).
The double-axe, composed of two crescent shaped blades, is thought to have been an early symbol of the Mother Goddess.
This is the first I've heard of the bi-trangular shape being found in Nubia. I know that it was present in Tasili as well as other places in the Sahara. Whether this geometric symbol is related to the Minoan double axe remains to be seen, however there are Old Kingdom tombs featuring decorations in the form of the double-axe. Whether this is due to Minoan influence or vice-versa-- that the Minoans got it from the Egyptians remains to be seen.
quote: The ancestors of the Iforas Tuareg or "Ait Ifren", for example, are recorded as Chana or Djana (Khian) son of Yahyah son of Salatis or Isletan son of Warsak son of Dari son of Chacfoun (Apachnas) son of Bendouad or Adidat (Hadid) son of Imla son of Guerad son of Maghdis son of Herek son of Mazigh a great grandson of Badyan son of Canaan. recorded by Ibn Khaldun and found in MacMichael's History of the Arabs vol. II and other places.
Elsewhere it is said Ifren was son of Islitan, son of Misra, son of Zakiya, son of Warsik son of Adidat, son of Djana was through Mazigh a descendant Canaan of Ham.
Several of the above chiefs are undoubtedly the same as documented on Hyksos scarabs.
The known Hyksos rulers or shepherd-kings recorded by Eusebius, Josephus, Syncellus and even Leo Africanus, included Salatis, Khyan (Janias of Josephus), Apachnas or Apopi I(Chacfoun) whom Herodotus claims was Epaphus and Archles (Herak).
These people took over the Aegean as well according to tradition. Arabs record them as "Amalekites" or Himyarite kings of the Adites. They mention Adidat or Douad as Chedid. While Salatis is well known as Salih.
Ifuras Tuareg of Mali
The name Masikha or Mashek and Misrah and Misramah are well known names of ancient Yemenite tribes associated with the Mahra whom Hamdani and Khaldun equate with the Adites. See R. Khanams Encylopaedic Ethnography of Middle East and Central Asia vol. 1 p. 66 on the Masikha.
No doubt their remnant in Syria were the Ph'anakes of Manetho and "Phoenicians" that Josephus claims were the "Amalek shepherds".
I thought the Tuareg were a matrilineal society. Is such a paternal genealogy rooted in actual Berber tradition or was it an Islamized tradition?? If you are postulating a connection to Hyksos are you suggesting that the Hyksos kings and chieftains did more than just make contact with Libyans? Are you aware of predynastic connections between Libyans and Canaanites via the Egyptian Delta, that was suggested by some scholars? If so, is that what you are stating?
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Neith-Athena: I have not had time to post here in ages and have only read some posts once in a great while when schoolwork allowed me to. Regarding my previous post, it was a misunderstanding on my part based on my quickly perusing EgyptSearch history when I first discovered this great forum.
Anyway, regarding the bi-triangular double axe, I learned about it when I went to Greece, including Crete, two summers ago. Historians of the region do not really know what it stands for, even though one British scholar at a site that my group and I visited on Crete conjectured that it had to do with mother goddesses. Takruri and other veteran posters on African migrations to Greece, is this possibly a link between the Tuareg or ancient Berbers and the ancient Minoans?
Not only the Minoans but Mycenae, but the Aegean in general.
For more on African influence in the Aegean, you can look here.
quote: I am not certain about the wide range of Berber-speakers and it is important to remember what Berbers were described as until a few hundred years ago. But, I personally have never ever seen a true Berber that wasn't tropically adapted. That is why most still have deep brown complexions like their Afar Ethiopian, Watutsi, Woodabe, Rendili, Somali relatives. Many are in fact superbly adapted to super hot arid climate they apparently emerged from possessing ultra long limb proportions and ultradolichocephaly. The answer to where Berbers received these adaptations is the answer to where Nilotes originated.
As many have noted, the 'Berber' languages proper share a common origin with Egyptian and other Afrasian languages which lie somewhere in Saharan to Sub-Saharan East Africa. I believe Evergreen himself noted that proto-Berber may have arisen in the Sudan. As such tropical adaptations being the norm and not the exception is no surprise.
quote: The whole question of white or near white complexioned "indigenous Africans" in the Sahara in ancient prehistoric times is speculative and pushing matters since there is no evidence of groups of indigenous "whites" in Africa, except for a few incidences of Moon faced women in rock art which may have been stylistic.
Archeology has shown from settlements of Greeks or peoples of Sicilian origin after the beginning of the iron age on coastal north Africa Kabyle area (between Algeria and Tunisia). Is this indigenous? There was movement or trickle of lateral headed peoples into northern Egypt between the 2nd and 6th dynasties which has long been known. But, neither archeology nor physical anthropological evidence attests to an early indigenous presence of "white" groups.
As this is not the first time you are posting these questions I would like to hear what evidence has been produced aside from this that has shown such a presence. The genetic evidence certainly doesn't prove otherwise. Egyptian tomb paintings haven't shown otherwise.
There is also the problem of when the iron age and New kingdom actually began and the dating of the tomb of Seti showing fair-skinned Libyans, as more recent alternative chronologies have dated the New Kingdom much later than conventional or traditional dating.
I believe fair-skinned Libyans were basically early Africans that had been modified or lightened by the presence of iron age European mercenaries or "sea people" probably dating after the start of the New Kingdom.
Perhaps modified like the Tuareg group below who've also absorbed Syrians and other peoples in recent times (according to Bornu manuscripts).
My point in bringing up Hyksos origins was to show that the name Mazikh or Imazigh from which it has been suggested the name "Mashwesh" was derived is of Hyksos i.e. Syro-Arabian Meluchha or Amlukh (Hyksos) or Musuri origin as were the dark-skinned people first and still called Masikh in Arabia. The appearance of fair-skinned people among North African Mazikh, known as "Ethiopians" even in Roman texts - as I have mentioned more than once on Egyptsearch forum - must mean that there was some recent iron age admixture of some of the Mazikh with non-African proto-Greeks or sea peoples. That is if the name Mashwesh truly is a version of "Mazigh".
I believe you are getting closer to heart of the matter here. It was Takruri and Ausar who pointed out on several occasions that during their colonization of North Africa, the Greeks spoke of a people called 'Leuco-aethiopies'. These white ethiopians had to have come from somewhere in Europe originally.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: I guess my major problem is why in looking at so many paintings of "Libyans" one sees mainly those with reddish brown paint wearing off. This is not restricted to Libyans, but to Old Kingdom Egyptians, Syro-Canaanites and so called "Sea Peoples" like the Philistines (Peleset) and Hittites.
Are the paintings with red brown paint faded off the "Lebou" and below supposed to be evidence of "white Libyans", "Meshwesh" and "Sea Peoples"?
If so why are they represented the same color as Ramses?
Lebou
Another Lebou rendition photo with faded paint
Paint faded from Ramses with "Libyans"
"Philistine" with faded paint
Notice the brown paint faded from this "Libyan's" back leg
And why does the Phillistine below WITHOUT THE PAINT COMING OFF on the tomb of Medinet Habu show that they were actually a dark brown color.
One thing is certain, and that is that as late as the time of the Ramessids and Seti many of these "Libyans" and "Sea Peoples" were far from being "creamy-colored".
Maybe someone needs to take up the study of chemical analysis of ancient Egyptian paints on this forum before some museum curator comes along and repaints them.
I have been looking a long time for depictions of dark/black Libyans with traces of paint still left and to be honest this is the first time I've ever seen it, at least close-up! Now that I look at it, the facial profiles of these Lebou particularly in the nose remind me of Tuareg. I've heard many try to compare the noses to those of Fulani types like the Wodaabe but the high bridge and short tip are more like Tuareg, as is the wavy hair and fuller beards. Such facial features and hair also hark back to those Tjehenu depicted in Old Kingdom reliefs as well as depictions of early Delta peoples from proto-dynastic times including the Narmer Palette which might lend credence to the theory of Delta Egyptians having Libyan ancestry. Though one main difference between these New Kingdom Lebu and the Old Kingdom Tjhenu is in dress. From the few examples I've seen, the Tjehenu both males and females wore shirt skirts or loincloths and were topless except cross-bandaliers which they wore on their chests. In fact the long draped tunics of the Lebu remind me more of Canaanite/Levantine types than anything else. As for your claims on the Philistines, this reminds me that according to Hebrew writings there were two main groups of Philistines with the earlier group said to be descended from Casluhim which was offspring of Mizraim (Egypt) and that the Caphtorim (Cretans/Minoans) are also descended from Mizraim. It's probable that these people represent early sea-faring groups from Africa as opposed to the later Sea Peoples of Anatolia and Europe which included the later Philistines. Such is another topic I would like to discuss next time.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: DJ mentioned scholars suggesting a relationship of the Tjemehu with fairer skinned Kabyles.
Since the biology and culture of modern fair-skinned kabyle people (according to Berber specialists like Gabriel Camps) have many biological and cultural traits of modern and ancient Greeks and other EuroMediterraneans it would be simpler to assume they are related to these people as well as Romans and later European Balkan (Turkish) settlers documented as being in the region.
Archeology in the region shows late or iron age links to Sicily/Sardinian area which could show represent the Greek or Sardinian link.
Yes, in books I've read about the peoples of North Africa and specifically the Berber, there is a theory postulated that tries to connect the modern fair-skinned Berber with the fair-skinned Tamahu of Egyptian records. As Evergreen pointed out, these people possess African paternal lineages but European maternal lineages so the question remains exactly where in Europe did these maternal lineages come from?
One theory I've heard states it is specifically Iberia (Spain and Portugal region) that this ancestry originated. We know about the mesolithic Ibero-Maurusian culture which crossed the Gilbraltar Straits from Morocco into Iberia. We have evidence of not only African cranial features and skeletons in Iberia but also lineages in the form of E3b but even E2 associated with Berber men in that region as well as animals like cattle. It is more than possible then that a migration the other way around happened whether around that time or much later. There is also another theory as pointed out by Dana that a migration from Europe could have taken place by way of the Italian islands into the Tunisian or Algerian coasts. We know from evidence on the Island of Malta that there was an African presence dating from the neolithic as well, which was later displaced by European cultures. So the two easiest passages that Southwest Europeans can make into North Africa is across the straits of Gibraltar into or Morocco or island hop from Italy to Tunisia or Algeria.
Again, I must ask what does the genetic data show for the populations of these areas? (Evergreen?)
Posted by Evergreen (Member # 12192) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: What explains the skin colour variation in other populations outside of Africa who are on average lighter than most Africans?
Evergreen Writes: How does this relate to "White" Africa?
Posted by Evergreen (Member # 12192) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Could such factors have influenced the colour of Eurasian mtDNA contributors to the Taforalt epipaleolithic population?
Evergreen Writes:
I don't think so. As late as the mesolithic period (post-dating the Taforalt period) Europeans were still semi-tropically adapted.
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
The 10,000 Year Explosion
By Cochran and Harpending
"Many of these changes seem to be quite recent. The mutation that appears to have the greatest effect on skin color among Europeans and neighboring peoples, a variant of SLC24A5, has spread with astonishing speed. Linkage disquuilibrium - that is, the degree to which the genome is surprisingly uniform around this gene - suggests that it came into existence about 5,800 years ago..."
"It would have spread so rapidly that, over a long lifetime, a farmer could have noticed the change in appearance in his village. Again, if it is that recent, it must have had a more limited distribution in early historical times, particularly in peripheral areas: In fact, this may explain the Roman impression that the Picts of Scotland were dark-skinned".
Evergreen Writes:
Indigenous Europeans with melanin-level variation as late as the Bronze Age.
ahhh, Puppy Chow is back.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Thanks for your responses Djehuti I am excited at the prospect of some of what you said.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:
The fact that all early representations of Libyans as being of the same complexion of Egyptians has been made time and again in this forum... While there is similarity in dress there are also obvious differences as well as differences in georgraphic range and language between the Wodaabe proper and the ancient Libyans.
Yes, I have been on the pages on this forum addressing the appearance of early Libyans and their attire spoken of by Bates, Mueller and more recently Constantino and Van Offelen. It is much more than hairstyles and attire however, it is the fact that the Libyans referred to are represented in the paintings of the late time of Seti and it is the near identical details of their designs and tattoos still present in the Libyan and Woodabe attire. This suggests a connection of late Libyans with Woodabe, although these Libyans within the sphere of Egypt appear to have by this time already been mixed with fair-skinned people.
As for the present Fulani dialect,of course language doesn't always mean that much. As I mentioned in my article in, Golden Age of the Moors, some Fulani when encountered by early colonialists were speaking dialects so different they were thought to have had an origin external to Africa. What dialect this was, however, I don't know.
Furthermore, we have millions of people now speaking Afro-Asiatic dialects that are for the most part not of Afro-Asiatic origin. As for the geographic aspect I would have to also say we all know the Woodabe peoples are pastoral nomadic peoples that are part of the Fulani or Fellata or Bororo. They today extend from West to East Africa and from Algeria and Libya to Chad, Sudan and Egypt today which makes it not unlikely that they could have been in Egypt yesterday.
Their longtime presence among Niger-Congo speakers can likely explain their dialects, just as the longtime presence of Watutsi among Bantu can probably explain the present Tutsi language.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ I don't understand what you mean here by Afroasiatic origin. Are you referring to the actual populations who spread the languages as opposed to the languages themselves? Language like any other cultural feature can be transmitted between populations without any actual genetic exchange. If you are suggesting that there was an exchange in clothing style as well as body art between the Lebou and Niger-Congo speakers like the Wodaabe, it is very possible. In fact, even linguistic influence is also plausible considering the striking similarity between the Wolof language and that of ancient Egyptian as first cited by Chiek Diop.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
This is the first I've heard of the bi-trangular shape being found in Nubia. I know that it was present in Tasili as well as other places in the Sahara. Whether this geometric symbol is related to the Minoan double axe remains to be seen, however there are Old Kingdom tombs featuring decorations in the form of the double-axe. Whether this is due to Minoan influence or vice-versa-- that the Minoans got it from the Egyptians remains to be seen.
I thought the Tuareg were a matrilineal society. Is such a paternal genealogy rooted in actual Berber tradition or was it an Islamized tradition?? If you are postulating a connection to Hyksos are you suggesting that the Hyksos kings and chieftains did more than just make contact with Libyans? Are you aware of predynastic connections between Libyans and Canaanites via the Egyptian Delta, that was suggested by some scholars? If so, is that what you are stating? [/QUOTE]
I neglected to mention the double-axe is also known for being associated with the deity Chango or Shango in West Africa. The latter is known from east to west in Africa under variants of the same name as Dongo, Ru'hang, Hangi, Ngi, Ngai,etc. The deity is associated with water and thunder and is the Lord of "high and low places". I attribute the deity "Inachus"(as most other Gods found in the Aegean and Greece to the presence of Afro-Asiatic/Amelekite Hyksos and their movement into the Aegean and Mediterranean (including Crete). Chango or Aman Ngi is intricately intertwined into the African cosmoastronomical mythos, which is one of the reasons I bet on an African origin for the double-axe.
And yes the double axe motif is found on early so called "Meroitic" pottery in Nubia at Karanog and other places. In rock art bi-triangular schematisme is also associated with warriors who hold the wrist knife and where feathers in their hair like modern Afar/Danakil and Beli of Chad. The Tuareg also have or had this wrist knives. Thank God for Richmond Palmer who first pointed out some of this evidence in his Bornu Sahara and Sudan. These connections first led me to the theory that the Afar-Danakil were somehow connected with the Iforas and Kel Dinneg Tuareg as well as the name of the early chariot using "Pharusii" of Libya and Ethiopia. It also inferred for me a connection of late Kushitic peoples with the Tuareg or Zenata and other people formerly called Mauri further north.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I don't understand what you mean here by Afroasiatic origin. Are you referring to the actual populations who spread the languages as opposed to the languages themselves? Language like any other cultural feature can be transmitted between populations without any actual genetic exchange. If you are suggesting that there was an exchange in clothing style as well as body art between the Lebou and Niger-Congo speakers like the Wodaabe, it is very possible. In fact, even linguistic influence is also plausible considering the striking similarity between the Wolof language and that of ancient Egyptian as first cited by Chiek Diop.
I don't think it was a matter of exchange. I think some Woodabe, Futa-be or Lebou got mixed with other people during the time between the Intermediate period of Egypt and Seti.
Yes - I am referring to the people that spread the Afro-Asiatic or "semitic" language group into Arabia and the Near East.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
As for LeucoEthiopes I have always supposed they had to be talking of either the Scythian Seres who had settled southern Arabia and the horn, or the Scythians of Cyrene who may have settled in Ethiopia. As you say that were probably Europeans related.
Judging from the descriptions of the early Mauri inhabitants of the Maghreb coasts as Ethiopians I suspect it wasn't a reference to light skinned Tuareg, whose ancestors - Iforas, Levathes or Leuathae, Mucatateni/Kutameni(modern Imakitan), Cadenit (modern Kel Cadenit), Zigritae, Mezikes etc. were at various times called "Ethiopians" or at least said to resemble them. The Tuareg in African manuscripts mixed with Syrians and Khorasanis and Turks and Tartars in the Midieval era.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ There are Greek references to peoples in the North African coasts besides the Maure like 'Leuco-Ethiopes' and 'Melano-Gaetules'. I don't know who the Gaetules were, but I assume they are usually white as the 'Melano' (Black) ones seem to be the exception the same way the White Ethiopes are an exception. Perhaps these Gaetules may represent some early European influence in the region.
What about my questions about Tuareg lineage and genealogy as well as your proposed connection between Tuareg and Hyksos?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Evergreen wrote: Indigenous Europeans with melanin-level variation as late as the Bronze Age.
But can these Minoans above really be called 'indigenous Europeans'? We know that Crete was settled mainly by Africans and Asiatics from Anatolia. As such I doubt any Minoan can truly represent indigenous Europeans.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Another Lebou rendition photo with faded paint
Paint faded from Ramses with "Libyans"
"Philistine" with faded paint
Notice the brown paint faded from this "Libyan's" back leg
And why does the Phillistine below WITHOUT THE PAINT COMING OFF on the tomb of Medinet Habu show that they were actually a dark brown color.
I have been looking a long time for depictions of dark/black Libyans with traces of paint still left and to be honest this is the first time I've ever seen it, at least close-up! Now that I look at it, the facial profiles of these Lebou particularly in the nose remind me of Tuareg. I've heard many try to compare the noses to those of Fulani types like the Wodaabe but the high bridge and short tip are more like Tuareg, as is the wavy hair and fuller beards. Such facial features and hair also hark back to those Tjehenu depicted in Old Kingdom reliefs as well as depictions of early Delta peoples from proto-dynastic times including the Narmer Palette which might lend credence to the theory of Delta Egyptians having Libyan ancestry. Though one main difference between these New Kingdom Lebu and the Old Kingdom Tjhenu is in dress. From the few examples I've seen, the Tjehenu both males and females wore shirt skirts or loincloths and were topless except cross-bandaliers which they wore on their chests. In fact the long draped tunics of the Lebu remind me more of Canaanite/Levantine types than anything else. As for your claims on the Philistines, this reminds me that according to Hebrew writings there were two main groups of Philistines with the earlier group said to be descended from Casluhim which was offspring of Mizraim (Egypt) and that the Caphtorim (Cretans/Minoans) are also descended from Mizraim. It's probable that these people represent early sea-faring groups from Africa as opposed to the later Sea Peoples of Anatolia and Europe which included the later Philistines. Such is another topic I would like to discuss next time.
I am not aware of any recent studies connecting the Lebou with Canaanites, but i have heard that some archeologists or are connecting them with the Israelites. I think your assesment of the Tuareg appearance of the Lebou of the Ramessid period and of the latter with Canaanites is very insightful and probably correct. It would fit in the Tuareg claim of Canaanite and Phoenician ancestry. Personally it is my belief that like the Philistines, the later dark-skinned Lebou the Ramesid period represent people of Canaanite origin. The former however may have settled in the Aegean like the Tjeker and come in with the fairer skinned Sea People.
I don't know about two Philistine groups. I know that people say that these Philistines from Medinet Habu are attired in Aegean wear. I also know that the Hebrews make them descendants of the Keftiu. I don't identify Crete as the sole habitat of the Keftiu or Caphturim as you say. According to Near Eastern scholars the name Keftiu may have referred to the Aegean coasts in general.
William Hallo and William Simpson for example wrote the name is "generally held to designate Crete and perhaps the Aegean coasts as well". They point out that the name Keftiu is associated with the name Kizzuwatna for the Cilician coast which was also called Keti by the Egyptians. The name is also supposed to be a variant of Katpatuka (Cappadocia) of Syria/Anatolia and the the name Kaphturim are associated with the Casluhet who settled in or near Pelusium near Egypt. I believe the Musuri or Masrah of the Syro-Arabian area were a remnant of those "black Syrians" from whom had come the Kasluhim and Kafturim (Kethu or Kizzuwat), Lebou or Lehabim and Philistines or Peleset. In Hebrew texts the last 4 came from the Mitzraim which was the name of a tribe in the Levant which should not be confused with the region called Egypt today. They were all descended from one people who settled Syria and other places in the Mediterranean and Aegean during the Hyksos period. i learned from the ANE forum a long time ago that the Musri were called Meluhha while the Arabians and Hebrews called them the Amlukh or Amalekites.
As I mentioned previously these Qeti or Kethwat or Keftiu must be the Khethim of Josephus whom he claimed had colonized the Cyprus and the Mediterranean under Cethimus. The latter is most likely "Cathim the Amalekite" ruler of Arabian tradition.
Thus, we find peoples named Khetim, Maketa, Ketama all over the ancient Mediterranean and Aegean, and north Africa whom are undoubtedly the "Ethiopians" who Greek tradition once said to have to the mountain of Atlas (Daris).
After some time in control of Egypt these Kethim or Misraim must have been pushed westward. At some point in time one group of them must have intermingled with Sea People or some other white Mediterranean population. This is most probably why there as least one figure that is sometimes said to be either Hittite and Libyan.
As as early as the Old Kingdom early peoples of the delta and Fayum were supposedly trading through Memphis with the Sinai and Levant, and in my mind these people were related. The neolithic peoples of the Levant (Tahun of Jordan, Jericho, Neolithic B in Palestine) and Fayum were connected probably biologically or "genetically" as well. These same peoples show links to Chatal Huyuk. It may be in this way that the semitic dialects first entered the Levant.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ There are Greek references to peoples in the North African coasts besides the Maure like 'Leuco-Ethiopes' and 'Melano-Gaetules'. I don't know who the Gaetules were, but I assume they are usually white as the 'Melano' (Black) ones seem to be the exception the same way the White Ethiopes are an exception. Perhaps these Gaetules may represent some early European influence in the region.
What about my questions about Tuareg lineage and genealogy as well as your proposed connection between Tuareg and Hyksos?
I have been trying to catch up with your questions.
I have just finished answering your question about the Tuareg and Hyksos, now before you ask again, here is the second part.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
“Ephorus says the Tartessians report that Ethiopians overran Libya as far as Dyris [the Atlas Mountains] and that some of them stayed in Dyris, while others occupied a great part of the sea-board.” Lacus Curtius Strabo book I Chapter 2
“The children of Ham possessed the land from Syria and Amanus, and the mountains of Libanus; seizing upon all that was on its sea-coasts, and as far as the ocean, and keeping it as their own. Some indeed of its names are utterly vanished away; others of them being changed, and another sound given them, are hardly to be discovered; yet a few there are which have kept their denominations entire. “ Josephus Antiquities of the Jews, Book I, Chapter 6
The Tuareg though matrilineal and matrifocal were not necessarily always matriarchal. They have always been ruled by mostly male chiefs called Galidi, hence the name "Gildo" and Aguellid in the North African area. From what I can tell most of these "Galidi" were men. Some have even related the term to the Goliath of the Bible. Others have found in the term a possible link to Acalle - the daughter of Minos in mythology or "Alyattes" in the Aegean.
Anyway, I don't think this ancestry of kings was given to the Tuareg who still claim a "Phoenician" descent and Yemenite origins.
The tradition is apparently Berber and the Shluhs have the same tradition as the Tuareg apparently. “The Shellooh, it must be observed are a clans people and great genealogists. They call themselves, the descendants of Mazigh, son of Canaan, and consider their northern neighbours, the Brebber of Fez, as Philistines, descendants of Casluhim, son of Mizraim. Ibn Khaldun says of the Berbers in general that they are descended from ham, like the ancient Egyptians. “ p. 263 Penny Cyclopaedia of the Society for the Difusion of Useful Knowledge 1835
The Shluh of the Upper Atlas incidently ar the Berbers who often prefix their name with the word "Ait" or "Ad" like certain Tuareg and Bedja.
There have always been a tradition of two waves of the Berbers into Africa one represented by the Imazuragh or Banu Mazurah (Mizraim) branch of the Tuareg branch and the other by the Shluh and the Iforas (Afar), Banu Salih and other Zenata who claim descent from the Canaanite Mazikh and whose ancestry appears to be identifiable with the Hyksos rulers represented in Egyptian sources and at the same time "Amalekite" chiefs also known as "Ad" in Arabian genealogy stretching from Yemen to Mecca in the time of Joshua and the breaking of the Marib dam.
The other group or Philistines were said to have left their land later in the time of David.
This is what I have been proposing to people on this forum since I've been on it. I will have to speak of the Gaetuli (Joddala)later.
Posted by Evergreen (Member # 12192) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QUOTE]....Crete was settled mainly by Africans....
Evergreen Writes:
We should probably start a new thread if you want to do a deep dive on this, but there is little to no evidence to support your claim.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
There were no white Gaetuli.
Will check into it further but Ptolemy while mentioning Gaetulia only gives notice of MelanoGaetuli. He does not know any other people simply called Gaetuli or who have Gaetuli in their name.
I take it that MelanoGaetuli and Gaetuli are one and the same people unless there is an ancient accounnt that specifically lists the two of them.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I don't know who the Gaetules were, but I assume they are usually white as the 'Melano' (Black) ones seem to be the exception ...
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
This map, which one can save and zoom, may be helpful in locating the places and people in Ptolemy Book 4 Chapter 6 (Interior Libya).
It will help in visualizing which peoples and places are littoral, further inland, or near the desert and which areas were considered as Libyan and which areas Ethiopian.
If replying to this post please leave out the map or else it will take too much scrolling to navigate this page. Sorry, this is the lowest resolution that will allow clear zooms.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ There are Greek references to peoples in the North African coasts besides the Maure like 'Leuco-Ethiopes' and 'Melano-Gaetules'. I don't know who the Gaetules were, but I assume they are usually white as the 'Melano' (Black) ones seem to be the exception the same way the White Ethiopes are an exception. Perhaps these Gaetules may represent some early European influence in the region.
What about my questions about Tuareg lineage and genealogy as well as your proposed connection between Tuareg and Hyksos?
The word Melanogaetuli is used by Ptolemy for the ancient Berber inhabitants of the Wedh Regh or the province of Constantine. They are next to the Pharusii and are called Nigritae by other writers.
If there were Gaetuli or Mauri, other than black ones there should be some ancient reference to them. While we do read about LeucoEthiops we don't read about LeucoGetuli. Instead we find Procopius stating that the Gaitules were ancestors to the Masaesyles and other Mauri trained in Numidia, and earlier Juvenal refers to the Gaetuli as "a Mauri" "so black you'd rather not run into him at midnight."
Josephus makes the Gaetuli the kinsmen of the "Judadaeans a nation of western Ethiopians" and the Astoborans or peoples of the blue Nile or river Astaboras. Josephus Antiquites, Chapter 6.
So it is apparent the Gaetuli whom were the largest of "Libyan" tribes were quite black or any case "Abyssinian" in appearance. Does Ptolemy speak of other types of Gaetuli?
Juvenal in fact uses the phrase "nigri Mauri". That doesn't mean some of the Mauri were not black. In the 2nd and 3rd century other individuals like Silicius Italicus say the word "Mauri" was in Greek a synonym for "Niger" and later St. Isidore of the 6th century says similarly, adding the "Mauri" meant blackness and states "the Mauri" were "black as night". (see Book XIXxxiii7 The Etymologies of Isidore of Seville - by Steven A. Barney published 2007. p. 386) Later a much quoted Viking epic states "Mauri is the same as Negro" and "Mauritania is Negro-land". This is not exageration. This is why later on Berbers along the coasts are designated "blacks" in Arab writings instead of by Arab words that would mean light or medium brown or colored in the West. This is why Ibn Butlan before the 11th c. calls the women from the major Berber tribes of the coast of North Africa "black" instead of golden colored like the Beja who are are more like the modern inhabitants of the Wed Regh.
Maures and Getules are otherwise only described as people were the "reddish" black color of the tribes of "Indi" in Africa stretching to Oman and the Indus whom in the time of Eustathius and Philostorgius claim included the Axumitae, Adulitae (people of Adulis) or Abyssinians, Taieni (Tayyi) and Homeritae (Himyarites), Buga (Begawi) and other obviously "Ethiopic" people. Those are 5 of the 9 nations of the Indi listed by Eustathius.
Contrary to what some people have tried to promote, in the time of the Romans the word Mauri referred only to "the black person" and as Martial said a man "with woolly hair".
The phrase "Erembi Nigri" is used for the Erembi near Gades in the Iberian peninsula that doesn't mean there were Erembi that were not black. As Snowden rightly states "Mauri" was at times used by Romans as a synonym for "Ethiopian".
The word Mauri is used with numerous tribes in Numidia and Mauritania. The word Mauri also did not mean Mauritanian. We have the Mauri Mazikes, Mauri Bavares or Babars, Mauri Baqautes and Mauri Mazikes and Mauri Gensani. While other tribes living in Mauretania - Armeni, Phrygi, Vandali etc. are not prefixed by the word Mauri.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: I am not aware of any recent studies connecting the Lebou with Canaanites, but i have heard that some archeologists are connecting them with the Israelites. I think your assesment of the Tuareg appearance of the Lebou of the Ramessid period and of the latter with Canaanites is very insightful and probably correct. It would fit in the Tuareg claim of Canaanite and Phoenician ancestry. Personally it is my belief that like the Philistines, the later dark-skinned Lebou the Ramesid period represent people of Canaanite origin. The former however may have settled in the Aegean like the Tjeker and come in with the fairer skinned Sea People.
The studies I speak of that connect Libyans with Canaanites are not recent but old. The connection in particular is not that Libyans are of Canaanite descent but that both Libyans and Canaanites share a common ancestry via the Egyptian delta. One source that I specifically remember is a book on Minoan and early Aegean civilization in which the author cites early emigration to Crete from Africa from neolithic to early Bronze Age times. He even calls the Bronze Age emigration a kind of exodus perhaps due to political upheaval of Egypt's unification under Narmer where refugees were displaced both to the west of the Delta in Libya as well as east to the Levant. We know that there is strong evidence both archaeologically as well as genetically that proto-Semtic entered Southwest Asia through the Levant which correlates with such migrations from the Egypt's Delta. Hopefully I can get my hands on that book on Minoan civilization, so I can post that info.
quote:I don't know about two Philistine groups. I know that people say that these Philistines from Medinet Habu are attired in Aegean wear. I also know that the Hebrews make them descendants of the Keftiu. I don't identify Crete as the sole habitat of the Keftiu or Caphturim as you say. According to Near Eastern scholars the name Keftiu may have referred to the Aegean coasts in general.
Archaeologists identify two main groups historically called 'Philistines' with an earlier little known Bronze Age group and a later Iron Age group that is definitively identified as Aegean and was the very group the Isrealites waged war on.
quote:William Hallo and William Simpson for example wrote the name is "generally held to designate Crete and perhaps the Aegean coasts as well". They point out that the name Keftiu is associated with the name Kizzuwatna for the Cilician coast which was also called Keti by the Egyptians. The name is also supposed to be a variant of Katpatuka (Cappadocia) of Syria/Anatolia and the the name Kaphturim are associated with the Casluhet who settled in or near Pelusium near Egypt.
Identifying ancient peoples based on the names of one language is hard enough, but going through all these transliterations and other names that may or may not be related I find to be a mess. All I know that Israelite records say Philistim is descendant of Casluhim and both Casluhim and Caphtorim are sons of Mizraim. The name 'Casluhim' looks most like the Casluhet. And in my opinion Kapthorim looks most like Egyptian Keftiu. If this folk tradition is true, then these peoples have their origins in Egypt.
quote:I believe the Musuri or Masrah of the Syro-Arabian area were a remnant of those "black Syrians" from whom had come the Kasluhim and Kafturim (Kethu or Kizzuwat), Lebou or Lehabim and Philistines or Peleset. In Hebrew texts the last 4 came from the Mitzraim which was the name of a tribe in the Levant which should not be confused with the region called Egypt today. They were all descended from one people who settled Syria and other places in the Mediterranean and Aegean during the Hyksos period. i learned from the ANE forum a long time ago that the Musri were called Meluhha while the Arabians and Hebrews called them the Amlukh or Amalekites.
If you identify Mizraim with a Levantine people instead of Egypt, this where I get confused since I'm so used to associating the name with Egypt. I take it then, that Biblical Cush in this case would be Arabian instead of the African Kush. Canaan is still Levantine, so what about 'Phut'?
quote:As I mentioned previously these Qeti or Kethwat or Keftiu must be the Khethim of Josephus whom he claimed had colonized the Cyprus and the Mediterranean under Cethimus. The latter is most likely "Cathim the Amalekite" ruler of Arabian tradition.
Thus, we find peoples named Khetim, Maketa, Ketama all over the ancient Mediterranean and Aegean, and north Africa whom are undoubtedly the "Ethiopians" who Greek tradition once said to have to the mountain of Atlas (Daris).
It's tempting, but can one possibly connect this 'Cethimus' to the Cadmus of Greek legends who supposedly founded the city-state of Thebes and introduced the alphabet to Greece? According to Greek lore Cadmus was a Phoenician prince and we know that Phoenicia or ancient Canaan was also known to the Greeks as 'Aethiopia'. In the same Argive legends, Cadmus's father Agenor is the founder of Aethiopia just as his brother Belus is founder of Egypt and both are sons are Libya (Africa) by Poseidon.
quote:After some time in control of Egypt these Kethim or Misraim must have been pushed westward. At some point in time one group of them must have intermingled with Sea People or some other white Mediterranean population. This is most probably why there as least one figure that is sometimes said to be either Hittite and Libyan.
Control of Egypt when? Are you identifying them with the Hyksos?
quote:As as early as the Old Kingdom early peoples of the delta and Fayum were supposedly trading through Memphis with the Sinai and Levant, and in my mind these people were related. The neolithic peoples of the Levant (Tahun of Jordan, Jericho, Neolithic B in Palestine) and Fayum were connected probably biologically or "genetically" as well. These same peoples show links to Chatal Huyuk. It may be in this way that the semitic dialects first entered the Levant.
Of course. We've discussed how Semitic languages were introduced to Southwest Asia via the Levant along with African lineages plenty of times.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: I have been trying to catch up with your questions.
I have just finished answering your question about the Tuareg and Hyksos, now before you ask again, here is the second part.
Sorry. I forget it takes longer than I thought to respond.
quote: “Ephorus says the Tartessians report that Ethiopians overran Libya as far as Dyris [the Atlas Mountains] and that some of them stayed in Dyris, while others occupied a great part of the sea-board.” Lacus Curtius Strabo book I Chapter 2
“The children of Ham possessed the land from Syria and Amanus, and the mountains of Libanus; seizing upon all that was on its sea-coasts, and as far as the ocean, and keeping it as their own. Some indeed of its names are utterly vanished away; others of them being changed, and another sound given them, are hardly to be discovered; yet a few there are which have kept their denominations entire. “ Josephus Antiquities of the Jews, Book I, Chapter 6
The Tuareg though matrilineal and matrifocal were not necessarily always matriarchal. They have always been ruled by mostly male chiefs called Galidi, hence the name "Gildo" and Aguellid in the North African area. From what I can tell most of these "Galidi" were men. Some have even related the term to the Goliath of the Bible. Others have found in the term a possible link to Acalle - the daughter of Minos in mythology or "Alyattes" in the Aegean.
Anyway, I don't think this ancestry of kings was given to the Tuareg who still claim a "Phoenician" descent and Yemenite origins.
The tradition is apparently Berber and the Shluhs have the same tradition as the Tuareg apparently. “The Shellooh, it must be observed are a clans people and great genealogists. They call themselves, the descendants of Mazigh, son of Canaan, and consider their northern neighbours, the Brebber of Fez, as Philistines, descendants of Casluhim, son of Mizraim. Ibn Khaldun says of the Berbers in general that they are descended from ham, like the ancient Egyptians. “ p. 263 Penny Cyclopaedia of the Society for the Difusion of Useful Knowledge 1835
The Shluh of the Upper Atlas incidently are the Berbers who often prefix their name with the word "Ait" or "Ad" like certain Tuareg and Bedja.
There have always been a tradition of two waves of the Berbers into Africa one represented by the Imazuragh or Banu Mazurah (Mizraim) branch of the Tuareg branch and the other by the Shluh and the Iforas (Afar), Banu Salih and other Zenata who claim descent from the Canaanite Mazikh and whose ancestry appears to be identifiable with the Hyksos rulers represented in Egyptian sources and at the same time "Amalekite" chiefs also known as "Ad" in Arabian genealogy stretching from Yemen to Mecca in the time of Joshua and the breaking of the Marib dam.
The other group or Philistines were said to have left their land later in the time of David.
This is what I have been proposing to people on this forum since I've been on it. I will have to speak of the Gaetuli (Joddala)later.
I see now. So this patrilineage is applied to the chieftains of the Tuareg. I don't doubt that such lineages are traditional among the Tuareg or other Berber people especially when it is traced back to the eponymous 'Mazigh' but further on when the lineage is traced to Biblical or Arab ancestors of Yemeni origin, I can't help but to attribute this to Islamic influence. I'm very weary of Muslim or even Jewish African peoples who trace their ancestry to Southwest Asia.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
Paint faded from Ramses with "Libyans"
Actually, each of the three enemies that Ramses has in his grasp represents a different people. The darkest one on the left being Kushite, the one in the middle being Asiatic, and the one on the right presumably Libyan. Many Eurocentrics love to use this picture as proof that Ramses and the Egyptians weren't black because he seemingly has the same color as the Asiatic, but upon closer inspection one can find traces of darker brown paint especially around his arm and face.
The enemy on the right is the only one out of the three whose face is full frontal. If only someone could get a better zoom in look.
quote: Another Lebou rendition photo with faded paint
Yes, I can see especially on the faces traces of dark brown paint just like that found on Ramses.
Again, the faces and hair remind me of not only the Tuareg but other modern Saharan people like the man in the photo below that Takruri first posted.
The blue colored clothing of the Lebou also remind me of the Tuareg. In fact I remember Wally suggesting that either the Egyptian word Tehenu or Lebou meant something like 'bright' or 'dazzling' in a way like the blue stone lapis-lazuli.
quote: Notice the brown paint faded from this "Libyan's" back leg
Yes, and I also notice the cross bandouliers he wears on his chest like earlier Tehenu such as these reproduced engravings of Tehenu fist posted by Cotonou.
You can see more on Libyans in this thread here.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen: We should probably start a new thread if you want to do a deep dive on this, but there is little to no evidence to support your claim.
Fine, we can either continue this issue here on the various other threads on Greek and Aegean origins. But I am surprised by your comment about my claim on Minoan origins. I thought you yourself contributed evidence of the African and Asiatic origins Cretans before any actual Europeans. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: There were no white Gaetuli.
Will check into it further but Ptolemy while mentioning Gaetulia only gives notice of MelanoGaetuli. He does not know any other people simply called Gaetuli or who have Gaetuli in their name.
I take it that MelanoGaetuli and Gaetuli are one and the same people unless there is an ancient account that specifically lists the two of them.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The word Melanogaetuli is used by Ptolemy for the ancient Berber inhabitants of the Wedh Regh or the province of Constantine. They are next to the Pharusii and are called Nigritae by other writers.
If there were Gaetuli or Mauri, other than black ones there should be some ancient reference to them. While we do read about LeucoEthiops we don't read about LeucoGetuli. Instead we find Procopius stating that the Gaitules were ancestors to the Masaesyles and other Mauri trained in Numidia, and earlier Juvenal refers to the Gaetuli as "a Mauri" "so black you'd rather not run into him at midnight."
Josephus makes the Gaetuli the kinsmen of the "Judadaeans a nation of western Ethiopians" and the Astoborans or peoples of the blue Nile or river Astaboras. Josephus Antiquites, Chapter 6.
So it is apparent the Gaetuli whom were the largest of "Libyan" tribes were quite black or any case "Abyssinian" in appearance. Does Ptolemy speak of other types of Gaetuli?
Juvenal in fact uses the phrase "nigri Mauri". That doesn't mean some of the Mauri were not black. In the 2nd and 3rd century other individuals like Silicius Italicus say the word "Mauri" was in Greek a synonym for "Niger" and later St. Isidore of the 6th century says similarly, adding the "Mauri" meant blackness and states "the Mauri" were "black as night". (see Book XIXxxiii7 The Etymologies of Isidore of Seville - by Steven A. Barney published 2007. p. 386) Later a much quoted Viking epic states "Mauri is the same as Negro" and "Mauritania is Negro-land". This is not exageration. This is why later on Berbers along the coasts are designated "blacks" in Arab writings instead of by Arab words that would mean light or medium brown or colored in the West. This is why Ibn Butlan before the 11th c. calls the women from the major Berber tribes of the coast of North Africa "black" instead of golden colored like the Beja who are are more like the modern inhabitants of the Wed Regh.
Maures and Getules are otherwise only described as people were the "reddish" black color of the tribes of "Indi" in Africa stretching to Oman and the Indus whom in the time of Eustathius and Philostorgius claim included the Axumitae, Adulitae (people of Adulis) or Abyssinians, Taieni (Tayyi) and Homeritae (Himyarites), Buga (Begawi) and other obviously "Ethiopic" people. Those are 5 of the 9 nations of the Indi listed by Eustathius.
Contrary to what some people have tried to promote, in the time of the Romans the word Mauri referred only to "the black person" and as Martial said a man "with woolly hair".
The phrase "Erembi Nigri" is used for the Erembi near Gades in the Iberian peninsula that doesn't mean there were Erembi that were not black. As Snowden rightly states "Mauri" was at times used by Romans as a synonym for "Ethiopian".
The word Mauri is used with numerous tribes in Numidia and Mauritania. The word Mauri also did not mean Mauritanian. We have the Mauri Mazikes, Mauri Bavares or Babars, Mauri Baqautes and Mauri Mazikes and Mauri Gensani. While other tribes living in Mauretania - Armeni, Phrygi, Vandali etc. are not prefixed by the word Mauri.
I see. So 'Melano' was merely used as a prefix of emphasis to drive the point that these people were black the same way other tribes had the prefix 'Mauri' added to their names. And it is the Gaetuli who were also called 'Nigritai'. I thought it was the Garamantes who were called this. I wish an ancient map showing all these North African peoples west of Egypt were posted here...
Nevermind, I just realized the map Takruri posted has all the peoples and their territories listed; the letters are just too small for me to read clearly!
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QUOTE]Originally posted by alTakruri: [qb] I see. So 'Melano' was merely used as a prefix of emphasis to drive the point that these people were black the same way other tribes had the prefix 'Mauri' added to their names. And it is the Gaetuli who were also called 'Nigritai'. I thought it was the Garamantes who were called this. I wish an ancient map showing all these North African peoples west of Egypt were posted here...
Nevermind, I just realized the map Takruri posted has all the peoples and their territories listed; the letters are just too small for me to read clearly!
The word "Nigritai" comes from an Afro-Asiatic word for river and probably refers to the Wedh Draa area. The early Berbers of the Wed Regh and Wed Draa are the Darae Getuli of the ancient writers. Richmond Palmer also related the word to the word Taurud. I also had posted the below previously.
"Among the Gaetules were a tribe Dari or Darae Gaetuli, there was also a stream called Daradae Ethiopus-i- '(DARAE were a Gaetulian tribe in the W. of Africa, on a mountain stream called Dara, on the S. steppes of M. Atlas, adjacent to the Pharusii. (Plin. V. 1: Oros. i. 2: Leo Afr. P. 602.)'"
The Draa (Arabic: درأ) (also spelled Dra or Draâ, in older sources mostly Darha or Dara) is Morocco's longest river (1100 km). 'The inhabitants of the Draa are called Draawa (an exonym), the most famous Draawi undoubtedly being mawlay Mohammed ash-Sheikh. Outside of the Draa region this name is mostly used to refer to the dark skinned people of Draa which make up the largest portion of its inhabitants.' Retrieved May 13th 2008 from http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Draa-river "
The reason the word Nigri or Niger came to be identified blackness is due the the appearance of these Berber peoples.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
Paint faded from Ramses with "Libyans"
Actually, each of the three enemies that Ramses has in his grasp represents a different people. The darkest one on the left being Kushite...
What is your proof that these are three different peoples and if that is so why do they all have the same hairstyle. It looks to me as if one man just could hav faded more than the others.
The so-called Asiatic is the same color as Ramses. If the paint has been faded on Ramses (which it was) than the paint on the "Asiatic" and other person was also probably originally darker.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
[ [QUOTE][qb] Another Lebou rendition photo with faded paint
Yes, I can see especially on the faces traces of dark brown paint just like that found on Ramses.
Again, the faces and hair remind me of not only the Tuareg but other modern Saharan people like the man in the photo below that Takruri first posted.
The resemblance in profiles between men in the photograph and men in the painting above is striking and fascinating.
Wow, I think the man is a Berber of some sort, not sure if he is Tuareg. Whatever he is, you were right! He may be of the same stock as those ancient Libyans. I have seen this people before and we should try to find out what tribe he belongs to.
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
Djehuti, you have no evidence that crete was settled by africans. It is easy to make there reckless statements but real evidence would be helpful.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche: [qb] I am not aware of any recent studies connecting the Lebou with Canaanites, but i have heard that some archeologists are connecting them with the Israelites. I think your assesment of the Tuareg appearance of the Lebou of the Ramessid period and of the latter with Canaanites is very insightful and probably correct. It would fit in the Tuareg claim of Canaanite and Phoenician ancestry. Personally it is my belief that like the Philistines, the later dark-skinned Lebou the Ramesid period represent people of Canaanite origin. The former however may have settled in the Aegean like the Tjeker and come in with the fairer skinned Sea People.
The studies I speak of that connect Libyans with Canaanites are not recent but old. The connection in particular is not that Libyans are of Canaanite descent but that both Libyans and Canaanites share a common ancestry via the Egyptian delta. One source that I specifically remember is a book on Minoan and early Aegean civilization in which the author cites early emigration to Crete from Africa from neolithic to early Bronze Age times. He even calls the Bronze Age emigration a kind of exodus perhaps due to political upheaval of Egypt's unification under Narmer where refugees were displaced both to the west of the Delta in Libya as well as east to the Levant. We know that there is strong evidence both archaeologically as well as genetically that proto-Semtic entered Southwest Asia through the Levant which correlates with such migrations from the Egypt's Delta. Hopefully I can get my hands on that book on Minoan civilization, so I can post that info.
[QUOTE][qb]
I believe that some Libyans were the ancestors of many Canaanites of the southern Hejaz and the later SyroPalestine.
I believe that their remnant were the Hejaz groups known in Assyrian writings as Mehluhha or Musri or Masri and that the latter reentered Egypt during the "Hyksos" period( which was not called Misra until after the the tribe settled there).
I believe that the Fulani or Fellata are remnants of the "Libyans" that never left Africa due to both Saharan and Egyptian representations of the Libyans which I have not been able to locate and the fact that even later representations show people wearing identical designs on their attire.
Nevertheless, the Fulani/Fellata have long been in the area of Egypt, Libya and Sudan and connected with the Arabian Djerafin(Terapin?)tribes up until the 20th century. Fulani are undoubtedly the Barzu Fulitani of Mauretania Caesarea (evidently coastal Algeria) and their name may have some connection with the name of the Israelite Bnei or Birzeit Yaphlet of the Hebrew writings Chronicles 7:32 and 33. They may also be the same as the Pelethi mentioned with the Cherethi.
The personnage of Yaphlet is said to be the son of a "Heber" or "Beriah" through Asher identified by Kamal Salibi as the Dthu Shari (Dusariyah) of the southern Hijaz and Nejran region.
As mentioned before I am in agreement with Salibi's findings of the southern origin of the Canaanite/Israelite peoples.
keeping in mind the writings of the Syrians of the 14th century that state it was rare to see a fair- skinned Arab in the Hejaz I also believe there is a strong possibility remnants of the names of ancient Libyans or Lehabim and Mizraim are probably found in the early and modern Arabian names of Lehaba, Muzar, Masruh, and Djehene (Tehenu?) and Tamah.
Please note most of the ancient Libyan names bear strong resemblance to those of ancient and modern Arabian names. Until the 20th century the Lahabah (or Lahaybi) are mentioned as a branch of the Masruh in northern Hejaz, next to the Khazarah (Khazraj)and Gassan or Kassan. They are mentioned by Richard Burton in his travels.
The Khazarah (Jazar of Josephus) and Kassan (Kushana and Jokshan of the Bible)however claim to have moved north after the breaking of the dam at Marib. It is by tradition asserted that they that fought against the rulers of the Hejazi Misrah otherwise known the Mehluchha (Amalekites) named Samud (Khamudi?) who were also in control of Syria and the Nile valley.
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
None of this provides any evidence that any of the above claims are true.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche: [qb] .
Identifying ancient peoples based on the names of one language is hard enough, but going through all these transliterations and other names that may or may not be related I find to be a mess. All I know that Israelite records say Philistim is descendant of Casluhim and both Casluhim and Caphtorim are sons of Mizraim. The name 'Casluhim' looks most like the Casluhet. And in my opinion Kapthorim looks most like Egyptian Keftiu. If this folk tradition is true, then these peoples have their origins in Egypt.
quote:I believe the Musuri or Masrah of the Syro-Arabian area were a remnant of those "black Syrians" from whom had come the Kasluhim and Kafturim (Kethu or Kizzuwat), Lebou or Lehabim and Philistines or Peleset. In Hebrew texts the last 4 came from the Mitzraim which was the name of a tribe in the Levant which should not be confused with the region called Egypt today. They were all descended from one people who settled Syria and other places in the Mediterranean and Aegean during the Hyksos period. i learned from the ANE forum a long time ago that the Musri were called Meluhha while the Arabians and Hebrews called them the Amlukh or Amalekites.
If you identify Mizraim with a Levantine people instead of Egypt, this where I get confused since I'm so used to associating the name with Egypt. I take it then, that Biblical Cush in this case would be Arabian instead of the African Kush. Canaan is still Levantine, so what about 'Phut'? ...It's tempting, but can one possibly connect this 'Cethimus' to the Cadmus of Greek legends who supposedly founded the city-state of Thebes and introduced the alphabet to Greece? According to Greek lore Cadmus was a Phoenician prince and we know that Phoenicia or ancient Canaan was also known to the Greeks as 'Aethiopia'. Control of Egypt when? Are you identifying them with the Hyksos?
quote:As I mentioned previously these Qeti or Kethwat or Keftiu must be the Khethim of Josephus whom he claimed had colonized the Cyprus and the Mediterranean under Cethimus. The latter is most likely "Cathim the Amalekite" ruler of Arabian tradition.
Thus, we find peoples named Khetim, Maketa, Ketama all over the ancient Mediterranean and Aegean, and north Africa whom are undoubtedly the "Ethiopians" who Greek tradition once said to have to the mountain of Atlas (Daris).
I don't identify Khethim with Cadmus. The name Cadmusii or Cydamae in the Roman times, for example is used for the Berbers who setttled in Ghadames (ancient Cidamus) in Libya. The House of Cadmus mentioned by Pausanius, of course refers to Phoenicians who settled in the Mycenaean region of Thebes though. The name Kedem or Kadmon is of course listed with one of the tribes of Amalek and Midian. I believe Kedem were Amalekites like the descendants of Kethim whose name is probably related to the people called Cheth and Chitim, but Cathim and Kedem are two different words. They are both one of many Amalekite or "Phoenician" tribes that settled the Aegean and North Africa.
Kedem is also called Kedmeh one of the "tribes of Ishmael". "Whenever Israel planted crops, Midian, Amalek, and Kedem came and damaged the crops" Judges 6:3
I have tried to point out in my page on the Hyksos that the peoples known as Hagar(Hajur) and Midian must have been Azdites and may have entered the Nile and Libya as suggested by Josephus after the dam broke in Marib Yemen the Meriba of Exodus.
In North Africa many of the Berber names a pre-Islamic movement of reflect the movement of peoples from the southern Hejaz and Yemen who had moved into Syria and the north of Arabia. Among these peoples were the Naphish (or Nafusa, Nafzawa), the Jetur or Ithran (known as Bothran in later Arabic tradition) and hence the Botr ibn Berr of the Berbers. "Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael" 1 Chronicles 1:31
The Cadymae (or Kedem), the Hadad or Chedad and Hadid, the Biblical Hagar, Hajur or Hajar)and Massa also written as Mash'ai, Mashek or Mashikha of the Azdites (Marib) are obviously connected to the names Ihaggaren or Hoggar, and Mashikh, Amazigh Imoshagh of indigenous Berbers.
I can not overemphasize Kamal Salibi's book and the fact that his findings of the 100s of names for the Canaanites and Israelites in the Yemen and Asir Tehama region of southwest Arabia explain virtually all of the traditions of Africans of an Arabian origin or connection.
I have also said before that almost all of the names of the Berbers are those of ancient Yemenites and the tribes of Hagar who in Biblical tradition is called Keturah. These groups later settled in the North and in the Trogodyte regions of Africa as Josephus said. It is also not me that says the Naphish gave their name to the Nafusa and Nafzawa. That is the tradition of that Berber people. Because Berbers with these names are dark in color people don't want to recognize who they truly are.
"The Oases of Nafzawa and Wed Suef and Wed Regh and other Berbers of the Sus as “of very dark complexion” Guiseppi Sergi The Mediterranean Race: The Study of the origin of European peoples The Walter Scott Publishing Company 1901.
Girl of Jebel Nafusa
Of course, the tribe of Kenana is located in Hejaz as well as Jericho today. People write as if Canaanites and Israelites groups mentioned in the Bible and their names are lost and disappeared, but in reality most of these peoples and their names are found among dark-skinned people in Arabia today and among the Berbers in N. Africa. Thus, I would have to say that the later groups of Libyo-Berbers i.e., Nafusa and other Zenata, Sanhaja and Masmuda - must have come in part from the Levant and Yemen as they say they did. Some of them are those figured in the Ramses paintings.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche: [ Sorry your quotes got mixed up with mine in the last posting Djehuti.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
[QUOTE]
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The word "Nigritai" comes from an Afro-Asiatic word for river and probably refers to the Wedh Draa area. The early Berbers of the Wed Regh and Wed Draa are the Darae Getuli of the ancient writers. Richmond Palmer also related the word to the word Taurud. I also had posted the below previously.
"Among the Gaetules were a tribe Dari or Darae Gaetuli, there was also a stream called Daradae Ethiopus-i- '(DARAE were a Gaetulian tribe in the W. of Africa, on a mountain stream called Dara, on the S. steppes of M. Atlas, adjacent to the Pharusii. (Plin. V. 1: Oros. i. 2: Leo Afr. P. 602.)'"
The Draa (Arabic: درأ) (also spelled Dra or Draâ, in older sources mostly Darha or Dara) is Morocco's longest river (1100 km). 'The inhabitants of the Draa are called Draawa (an exonym), the most famous Draawi undoubtedly being mawlay Mohammed ash-Sheikh. Outside of the Draa region this name is mostly used to refer to the dark skinned people of Draa which make up the largest portion of its inhabitants.' Retrieved May 13th 2008 from http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Draa-river "
The reason the word Nigri or Niger came to be identified blackness is due the the appearance of these Berber peoples.
Of course. It is a well established fact that the first Africans known to Europeans were North Africans just across the Mediterranean and most if not all were described as 'black'. It makes you wonder how in time Westerners only applied black to 'Sub-Saharans' but not North Africans anymore.
quote:
What is your proof that these are three different peoples and if that is so why do they all have the same hairstyle. It looks to me as if one man just could have faded more than the others.
The so-called Asiatic is the same color as Ramses. If the paint has been faded on Ramses (which it was) than the paint on the "Asiatic" and other person was also probably originally darker.
The proof is based on three reasons. First, the three men all have different physical appearances and dress attire. The Kushite on the left is the darkest and while it may be somewhat difficult to see, he is wearing a leopard skin. The Asiatic in the middle is wearing clothing common to Asiatics and has a stereotypical hooked shaped nose common among West Semites and again while it may look like he and Ramses have the same complexion, Ramses actually has traces of much darker coloring while the Asiatic does not. As for the Libyan on the right, his paint seems to be the most faded and while his clothing may not be clear, he is wearing a long tunic common to Libyans. The second reason is that traditionally in Egyptian art when a pharaoh is smiting enemies, he is shown smiting a single man if he is engaged in war with a single people. If he is warring with more than one people, then a man of each group will be shown in the smiting scene. And lastly, the hieroglyphs on that Medinet Habu scene label the enemies.
quote:
The resemblance in profiles between men in the photograph and men in the painting above is striking and fascinating.
Wow, I think the man is a Berber of some sort, not sure if he is Tuareg. Whatever he is, you were right! He may be of the same stock as those ancient Libyans. I have seen this people before and we should try to find out what tribe he belongs to.
According to the label in the picture he is Mauritanian but other than that, I have no idea what ethnicity. The pic was first posted by Takruri to compare him with pics of the white Libyans who have the same goatee and braided hair-style.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote: I believe that some Libyans were the ancestors of many Canaanites of the southern Hejaz and the later SyroPalestine.
I believe that their remnant were the Hejaz groups known in Assyrian writings as Mehluhha or Musri or Masri and that the latter reentered Egypt during the "Hyksos" period (which was not called Misra until after the tribe settled there).
Then wouldn't it be more proper to say that these were 'Egyptians' in the sense that these Africans who entered the Levant did so from Egypt?
quote:I believe that the Fulani or Fellata are remnants of the "Libyans" that never left Africa due to both Saharan and Egyptian representations of the Libyans which I have not been able to locate and the fact that even later representations show people wearing identical designs on their attire.
Nevertheless, the Fulani/Fellata have long been in the area of Egypt, Libya and Sudan and connected with the Arabian Djerafin(Terapin?)tribes up until the 20th century. Fulani are undoubtedly the Barzu Fulitani of Mauretania Caesarea (evidently coastal Algeria) and their name may have some connection with the name of the Israelite Bnei or Birzeit Yaphlet of the Hebrew writings Chronicles 7:32 and 33. They may also be the same as the Pelethi mentioned with the Cherethi.
The personnage of Yaphlet is said to be the son of a "Heber" or "Beriah" through Asher identified by Kamal Salibi as the Dthu Shari (Dusariyah) of the southern Hijaz and Nejran region.
There is evidence of Fulani or rather Fulani ancestors being farther north and modern day Fulani are found throughout the sahel region of the continent from Niger to Sudan, but what makes you think they comprised the Libyans or even entered Arabia?
quote:As mentioned before I am in agreement with Salibi's findings of the southern origin of the Canaanite/Israelite peoples.
keeping in mind the writings of the Syrians of the 14th century that state it was rare to see a fair- skinned Arab in the Hejaz I also believe there is a strong possibility remnants of the names of ancient Libyans or Lehabim and Mizraim are probably found in the early and modern Arabian names of Lehaba, Muzar, Masruh, and Djehene (Tehenu?) and Tamah.
Please note most of the ancient Libyan names bear strong resemblance to those of ancient and modern Arabian names. Until the 20th century the Lahabah (or Lahaybi) are mentioned as a branch of the Masruh in northern Hejaz, next to the Khazarah (Khazraj)and Gassan or Kassan. They are mentioned by Richard Burton in his travels.
The Khazarah (Jazar of Josephus) and Kassan (Kushana and Jokshan of the Bible)however claim to have moved north after the breaking of the dam at Marib. It is by tradition asserted that they fought against the rulers of the Hejazi Misrah otherwise known the Mehluchha (Amalekites) named Samud (Khamudi?) who were also in control of Syria and the Nile valley.
So what of the Biblical claims connecting Arabians with 'Cush'?
quote:I don't identify Khethim with Cadmus. The name Cadmusii or Cydamae in the Roman times, for example is used for the Berbers who setttled in Ghadames (ancient Cidamus) in Libya. The House of Cadmus mentioned by Pausanius, of course refers to Phoenicians who settled in the Mycenaean region of Thebes though. The name Kedem or Kadmon is of course listed with one of the tribes of Amalek and Midian. I believe Kedem were Amalekites like the descendants of Kethim whose name is probably related to the people called Cheth and Chitim, but Cathim and Kedem are two different words. They are both one of many Amalekite or "Phoenician" tribes that settled the Aegean and North Africa.
Kedem is also called Kedmeh one of the "tribes of Ishmael". "Whenever Israel planted crops, Midian, Amalek, and Kedem came and damaged the crops" Judges 6:3
I have tried to point out in my page on the Hyksos that the peoples known as Hagar(Hajur) and Midian must have been Azdites and may have entered the Nile and Libya as suggested by Josephus after the dam broke in Marib Yemen the Meriba of Exodus.
In North Africa many of the Berber names a pre-Islamic movement of reflect the movement of peoples from the southern Hejaz and Yemen who had moved into Syria and the north of Arabia. Among these peoples were the Naphish (or Nafusa, Nafzawa), the Jetur or Ithran (known as Bothran in later Arabic tradition) and hence the Botr ibn Berr of the Berbers. "Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael" 1 Chronicles 1:31
The Cadymae (or Kedem), the Hadad or Chedad and Hadid, the Biblical Hagar, Hajur or Hajar)and Massa also written as Mash'ai, Mashek or Mashikha of the Azdites (Marib) are obviously connected to the names Ihaggaren or Hoggar, and Mashikh, Amazigh Imoshagh of indigenous Berbers.
I can not overemphasize Kamal Salibi's book and the fact that his findings of the 100s of names for the Canaanites and Israelites in the Yemen and Asir Tehama region of southwest Arabia explain virtually all of the traditions of Africans of an Arabian origin or connection.
I have also said before that almost all of the names of the Berbers are those of ancient Yemenites and the tribes of Hagar who in Biblical tradition is called Keturah. These groups later settled in the North and in the Trogodyte regions of Africa as Josephus said. It is also not me that says the Naphish gave their name to the Nafusa and Nafzawa. That is the tradition of that Berber people. Because Berbers with these names are dark in color people don't want to recognize who they truly are.
"The Oases of Nafzawa and Wed Suef and Wed Regh and other Berbers of the Sus as “of very dark complexion” Guiseppi Sergi The Mediterranean Race: The Study of the origin of European peoples The Walter Scott Publishing Company 1901.
Girl of Jebel Nafusa
Of course, the tribe of Kenana is located in Hejaz as well as Jericho today. People write as if Canaanites and Israelites groups mentioned in the Bible and their names are lost and disappeared, but in reality most of these peoples and their names are found among dark-skinned people in Arabia today and among the Berbers in N. Africa. Thus, I would have to say that the later groups of Libyo-Berbers i.e., Nafusa and other Zenata, Sanhaja and Masmuda - must have come in part from the Levant and Yemen as they say they did. Some of them are those figured in the Ramses paintings.
So you say that not only did Africans migrate into the Levant and Arabia in ancient times, but that they migrated back into Africa? The former is pretty much verified by linguistics, archaeology, and bio-anthropology but what of the latter? Not that I doubt you completely, but if Levantine or Arabian groups migrated into Africa how did they by-pass the Egypto-Sudan area unless there is evidence of them there?
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: [QUOTE][qb]
What is your proof that these are three different peoples and if that is so why do they all have the same hairstyle. It looks to me as if one man just could have faded more than the others.
The so-called Asiatic is the same color as Ramses. If the paint has been faded on Ramses (which it was) than the paint on the "Asiatic" and other person was also probably originally darker.
The proof is based on three reasons. First, the three men all have different physical appearances and dress attire. The Kushite on the left is the darkest and while it may be somewhat difficult to see, he is wearing a leopard skin. The Asiatic in the middle is wearing clothing common to Asiatics and has a stereotypical hooked shaped nose common among West Semites and again while it may look like he and Ramses have the same complexion, Ramses actually has traces of much darker coloring while the Asiatic does not. As for the Libyan on the right, his paint seems to be the most faded and while his clothing may not be clear, he is wearing a long tunic common to Libyans. The second reason is that traditionally in Egyptian art when a pharaoh is smiting enemies, he is shown smiting a single man if he is engaged in war with a single people. If he is warring with more than one people, then a man of each group will be shown in the smiting scene. And lastly, the hieroglyphs on that Medinet Habu scene label the enemies.
Now that I'm looking closer I think you are right that the men must be portraying three different groups of people.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QUOTE][qb] I believe that some Libyans were the ancestors of many Canaanites of the southern Hejaz and the later SyroPalestine.
I believe that their remnant were the Hejaz groups known in Assyrian writings as Mehluhha or Musri or Masri and that the latter reentered Egypt during the "Hyksos" period (which was not called Misra until after the tribe settled there).
Then wouldn't it be more proper to say that these were 'Egyptians' in the sense that these Africans who entered the Levant did so from Egypt?
[QUOTE] [qb] I think the groups at Fayum in Egypt and the people at places like neolithic Kharga, the Tenere and Tassili and other parts of the Sahara were related. I guess the earliest names for them were Tjehenu and Tjemehou. Probably the early Old Kingdom Egyptians came from the south in Nubia and had connections with A group.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
As I said the early people of Libyans that I have seen from the Old Kingdom paintings look just like the Fulani. They were dark brown and with profiles identical to the Fulani. As I recall however these men were called Tjehenu. That is what the manager of the Oriental museum library told me when he went and looked it up. However, what is interesting is that the hairstyles and attire of later Libyabns on the tomb of Seti have been noted to have strong similarity to certain modern Fulani. Thus, I can come to no other concludsion that the Fulani, the Tjehenu of Kharga and the later Libyans were originally one and the same people.
As for why I think they entered Arabia. Maybe I didn't make it as clear as I could have above, but as I mentioned, I believe the Pelethi, Birze Yaphlet, Barzu Fulitani and the Warith Felata (Fulani, Fula) were the same name for the same people. I believe however that the African Fulani or Felata as they are called are remnants of the original Tjehenu who were probably linked to the neolithic Saharans.
I don't think it is that much of a stretch to see them as the people who became the Pelethi of Arabia (Tehama) when we know the people of the Fayum have been trading with and linked to the Levantese Tahun culture and Arabia since the neolithic, just as today the peoples of Sinai like the Beja and Haweitat live on both sides of the Red Sea.
There is also the possibility that the neolithic people crossed from the area of the southern Arabia by way of the Horn. In any case the Fulani seem to represent that group of people that became ancestral certain elongated Cushitic speakers like the Oromo/Rendili and Maasai/Samburu (judging from the similar coxcomb hairstyles of the women). They also were ancestral to the Ovalheaded warriors represented in early Central Arabian rock art, but that would have been at least by 5,000 years B.C..
According to several scholars the lithics of Rub al-Khali where this rock art occurs and other places are undifferentiated from the Saharan neolithic bovidians of Fayum, Tenere, neolithic Khartoum, Kharga, Tassili, etc..
That is not to say that the African Fellata came in as part of the Hyksos movement from Arabia, as I believe many of the Tuareg did.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] [QUOTE][qb]
[QUOTE][qb]As mentioned before I am in agreement with Salibi's findings of the southern origin of the Canaanite/Israelite peoples...So what of the Biblical claims connecting Arabians with 'Cush'?
[qb] If you get Salibi's book he does a whole chapter on the confusion over the name Cush in the Bible. He claims most references refer to the Cuthim. Aribi and Kutha'a or Kuth were tribes of Himyarites known in Arabian genealogy as Yarub or Yarab and Kudha'a or Kudha'a. Kuth is also called the son of Ham in Ethiopian royal genealogy and apparently replaces the word Kush/Cush.
There is also the name Kushi or Kushana in the Bible used for Jokshan which is related to Kishon where the Israelites faced a torrent . In Arabia the people who came from this region are the South Arabians called Ghassan (later Kassanitae or Casandreis of the Greeks further north).
Lastly there is the name Kush which appears to be the Arabian Cassit or Khashid or Hebraic and Biblical Khasdim and Chesed. Thus Numayr/Numeir (panther Biblical Nimrod)son of Kush is in Arabian tradition said to be bin Kasit or bin Arfakhshad which Salibi claimed was also a place called War Maksud in southern Arabia and not the Ur of Iraq.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
As I mentioned I think the Misra/Lehaba or Lehabim groups are the NW Arabian people that were called Meluhha in Assyrian texts and they gave the name Misra to the lower Nile kingdom. I believe these Mehluhha had to have come up from Yemen where were the early Canaanites and their kings (Anak or Nakhi, Sheshi names found on Hyksos scarabs) mentioned in Genesis. Tradition has it that Egypt was invaded by Himyarite kings of the Amalekites also called Adites. Even the name of Himyar/Humayr (donkey) of the Yemenites is identical to that of Hamor "king of Canaan". According to Salibi and in fact African (including Tuareg) tradition Canaan was a part of Yemen extending into the Asir region.
I think it is very possible that these people were ancestral to the Tuareg Iforas and Nafusa groups (Zenata) who claim descent from individuals of "Canaan" which are confirmed on Hyksos scarabs(Canaanite/Yemenite chiefs). Some of this may be resolved when the chronology of the Bronze Age and Egypt's Middle Kingdom is rectified. But I think it plausible that their remnant were represented in the painting of the "Lebou" men wearing blue and yellow above in bas relief with - again - the brown paint fading away.
There is also confusion because it either Hyksos rulers in Misra, a south Arabian region or native Egyptian Pharaohs were in control of these regions during certain periods.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The resemblance in profiles between men in the photograph and men in the painting above is striking and fascinating.
Wow, I think the man is a Berber of some sort, not sure if he is Tuareg. Whatever he is, you were right! He may be of the same stock as those ancient Libyans. I have seen this people before and we should try to find out what tribe he belongs to.
According to the label in the picture he is Mauritanian but other than that, I have no idea what ethnicity. The pic was first posted by Takruri to compare him with pics of the white Libyans who have the same goatee and braided hair-style.
The image of the Berber man from Mauretania I found a while back while searching for old photos of Mauritania. It either comes from a site called Abdelacpa or postcardman.net. I will see if I can find the link to the original page. One thing I noticed about the appearance of these people and their hair styles was the strong similarity to the Beja people of Sudan.
Some examples of the "Beja like" hair and appearance:
Frontal image of the man above:
I also found this on that site under Morocco:
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Some others:
One labeled Riffian:
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: [qb]
Paint faded from Ramses with "Libyans"
Actually, each of the three enemies that Ramses has in his grasp represents a different people. The darkest one on the left being Kushite, the one in the middle being Asiatic, and the one on the right presumably Libyan. Many Eurocentrics love to use this picture as proof that Ramses and the Egyptians weren't black because he seemingly has the same color as the Asiatic, but upon closer inspection one can find traces of darker brown paint especially around his arm and face.
The enemy on the right is the only one out of the three whose face is full frontal. If only someone could get a better zoom in look.
this is dimwitted, the dark line that is being pointed to is on one side, it's a shadow from the recessing carved in line of the relief. the light source is of the photo is off to one side. the circular object to the right of Ramses, lower right shows this same type of shadow, it's not caused by a color change it's caused by the fact that there is a recess carved into the stone. Further proof of this is this dark shadow extends all the way down into the loincloth area that flares out far off the body.
I'm not saying that that this painting proves anything one way or the other but these types of delusions set in once your the mind is locked.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
3,000 BC, Southern Algeria.
. Minoan
.
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
Egyptians have one piece of art after another showing a clear distinction between themselves and black africans. Some of you folks need to go out and get a job instead of trying to push pointless nonsense that nobody is interested in.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Egyptians have one piece of art after another showing a clear distinction between themselves and black africans. Some of you folks need to go out and get a job instead of trying to push pointless nonsense that nobody is interested in.
the argument made by many in this forum is that the Egyptians were relatively lighter brown skinned negroes who were lighter than black skinned negroes
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
They makes these arguments for modern political reasons lioness. If you banned talk of black egyptians from this board most of these people would never come back. Most are not the least bit interested in egyptian history.
Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
lol @ the bogus "lioness" and "Hammer" trolls.. "lioness" types in lower case to appear "different" and disguise the fact that "she" is really "Hammer".. And "they" hope the 15 min interval between posts will provide more "cover.."
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan: lol @ the bogus "lioness" and "Hammer" trolls.. "lioness" types in lower case to appear "different" and disguise the fact that "she" is really "Hammer".. And "they" hope the 15 min interval between posts will provide more "cover.."
typical zarahan methodology. no studies to support it
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: They makes these arguments for modern political reasons lioness. If you banned talk of black egyptians from this board most of these people would never come back. Most are not the least bit interested in egyptian history.
what is your general motive for posting then?
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
up
Posted by Byron Bumper (Member # 19992) on :
BEEP BEEP SCREECH KISS CUSS
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
^ Nice link Sage! So back in the day there was already speculation the light skin is "indigenous" to Africa. Now modern genetics have caught up!
Tropical elongated Africans with light skin.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Sage, You were ahead of the game.. Indigenous..yes, but not from the Northern shores as modern genetics has shown.
[QUE]Originally posted by alTakruri: [] I don't know which white populations you're refering to. If you mean the ones from the northern shores of the Mediterranean its redundant to re-emphasize their whiteness as that's the gist of what I've proposed (that such folk were the cream in the coffee).
They're the non-indigenous component in the production of the "white" Africans. You aren't arguing that African chromosomes don't predominate in "white" North Africa, are you?
Ah, but they do. They comprise nearly three quarters, hence the "white" Africans are indeed indigenous.
Don't drag Egyptian civilization into this. Stay focused. The object under examination are those of the ancient "Libyans," and their descendents, who had, and have, extremely light complexions comparable to Europeans. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Is there some technique to move this entire thread to ESR?
Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
Dana Marniche: "The name Kedem or Kadmon is of course listed with one of the tribes of Amalek and Midian. I believe Kedem were Amalekites like the descendants of Kethim whose name is probably related to the people called Cheth and Chitim, but Cathim and Kedem are two different words. They are both one of many Amalekite or "Phoenician" tribes that settled the Aegean and North Africa."
- - - Compare Kedem to Edom/Idumea(Gk) which mean red and refers to Petra area.
Kedem is also called Kedmeh one of the "tribes of Ishmael". "Whenever Israel planted crops, Midian, Amalek, and Kedem came and damaged the crops" Judges 6:3
I have tried to point out in my page on the Hyksos that the peoples known as Hagar(Hajur) and Midian must have been Azdites and may have entered the Nile and Libya as suggested by Josephus after the dam broke in Marib Yemen the Meriba of Exodus.
In North Africa many of the Berber names a pre-Islamic movement of reflect the movement of peoples from the southern Hejaz and Yemen who had moved into Syria and the north of Arabia. Among these peoples were the Naphish (or Nafusa, Nafzawa), the Jetur or Ithran (known as Bothran in later Arabic tradition) and hence the Botr ibn Berr of the Berbers. "Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael" 1 Chronicles 1:31
The Cadymae (or Kedem), the Hadad or Chedad and Hadid, the Biblical Hagar, Hajur or Hajar)and Massa also written as Mash'ai, Mashek or Mashikha of the Azdites (Marib) are obviously connected to the names Ihaggaren or Hoggar, and Mashikh, Amazigh Imoshagh of indigenous Berbers.
I can not overemphasize Kamal Salibi's book and the fact that his findings of the 100s of names for the Canaanites and Israelites in the Yemen and Asir Tehama region of southwest Arabia explain virtually all of the traditions of Africans of an Arabian origin or connection.
I have also said before that almost all of the names of the Berbers are those of ancient Yemenites and the tribes of Hagar who in Biblical tradition is called Keturah. These groups later settled in the North and in the Trogodyte regions of Africa as Josephus said. It is also not me that says the Naphish gave their name to the Nafusa and Nafzawa. That is the tradition of that Berber people. Because Berbers with these names are dark in color people don't want to recognize who they truly are.
Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
DD'eDeN: "Compare Kedem to Edom/Idumea(Gk) which mean red and refers to Petra area."
The rest of the paragraph was by Dana Marniche.
Note: edom(Hebrew) = reddish = dawn/tawny/tan/taupe/brown/faun/fan(the ember to redden)/jaundice/orange/roan/merah(Malay: red)/roja(Spanish:red)
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
@ DJ a bump from pg 1
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Take it up with Keita:
quote: The morphological features (light skin and eyes, etc.) of Berbers likely also developed in situ in the African context, at least in part, but also likely result from gene flow from Eurasia that was likely primarily maternally mediated.
How so in situ?
quote: ... restricted early Holocene populations from the northern Sahara who represented a skewed non- representative and non-random sample of the Saharan peoples who were evolving there after recolonisation with the decrease in aridity in the late Pleistocene; ...
Indigenous African whites/near whites have peaches and cream complexions not the roses and milk of pallour of European whites.
Heretofore I proposed the cream in the coffee or caramel of the black supra-Saharan Africans came from Aegean females (in the case of Libou) and Tyrhennian females (for Meshwesh). I based this on Sea Peoples/Trojan War refugees for the former and neolithic - chalcolithic trans-Mediterranean trade for the latter.
This still left me unanswered questions in regards to creamy Tjemehu/Tamehu/TMHHW already in early 19th dynasty times and whites in Saharan rock art that appear seemingly prior to beaker and obsidian relics of circa 1500 BCE.
Can you address these specifics?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Bumped to showcase Kefi objective apolitical science
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I just want to be clear about what you're saying so I ask if you mean -- and assuming you read Kefi and Rhouda -- that mtDNA haplogroups CRS and other H or U, and JT, and V derived in Africa?
These studies cannot be ignored because they conflict with previously held convictions. They must be met head on, analysed and critiqued where we find disagreement.
For instancce, in the PPt Kefi throws out TafVIII. Is it in order to deny an inner African component in epipaleolithic Taforalt? It is the only sample of possible L3, M, or N affiliation. There were only two U6 samples yet Kefi did not exclude them among originators of "Ibero-Maurusians."
Clearly if the L3/M/N individual was found at Taforalt then she was just as much an "Ibero-Maurusian" originator as the two U6 females were. 4% is as weighty as 8% when the true heavy weight ranks in at 50%.
Also, it is very significant that an L3/M/N female was living that far north so near the very shoreline of N Africa at that point in time with her other African mtDNA sisters of the U6 haplogroup.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Its long been known speculated even based on similarities anthropological attributes Mechta Afalou, i.e. types found in Ibero-Maurusian and Jebel Sahaba in Nubia,- dolichocephalic Cro-magnons in Europe and other Paleolithic-mesolithic populations in Europe and Eurasia were related. Modern genetic-based studies on crania have said the same thing.
"As the saying goes, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck..."
On the other hand, more recent or modern peoples in Eurasia have to some extent absorbed ancient Eurasiatics and thus genetic continuity to some degree would be expected.
On the origin of Iberomaurusians: new data based on ancient mitochondrial DNA Rym Kefi et al. 2018
Taf VIII = Haplogroup U4a2b 100%
^ not L3, M or N
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
However
Pleistocene North African genomes link Near Eastern and sub-Saharan African human populations 2018
Marieke van de Loosdrecht1
Mitochondrial consensus sequences of the Taforalt indi-viduals belong to the U6a (n = 6) and M1b (n = 1) haplogroups (15), which are mostly confined to present-day populations in North and East Africa (7). U6 and M1 have been proposed as markers for autochthonous Maghreb ancestry, which might have been originally introduced into this region by a back-to-Africa migration from West Asia (6, 7). The occurrence of both haplogroups in the Taforalt individuals proves their pre-Holocene presence in the Maghreb. We analyzed the seven ancient Taforalt in combination with four Upper Paleolithic European mtDNA genomes (22, 23) and present-day individ-uals belonging to U6 and M1 (7) in BEAST v1.8.1 (24). Using a human mtDNA mutation rate inferred from tip calibration of ancient mtDNA genomes (23), we obtained divergence es-timates for U6 at 37,000 yBP (40,000-34,000 yBP for 95% highest posterior density, HPD) and M1 at 24,000 yBP (95% HPD, 29,000-20,000 yBP) (table S15). Our estimates are con-siderably younger than those of a study using present-day data only (45,000 ± 7000 yBP for U6 and 37,000 ± 7000 yBP for M1) (7), though similar to those of (25). Moreover, we ob-serve an asynchronous increase in the effective population size for U6 and M1 (fig. S24). This suggests that the demo-graphic histories of these North and East African haplog-roups do not coincide and might have been influenced by multiple expansions in the Late Pleistocene (25). Notably, the diversification of haplogroup U6a and M1 found for Taforalt is dated to ~24,000 yBP (fig. S23), which is close in time to
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
I doubt Haplogrep could assign a 'sequence' consisting of but a single solitary polymorphism at 100% certainty.
Years ago I explicitly exposed Kefi misrepresentating Taf 8; • not including it SSA as far as a Maurusian founder • yet counting it to beef the non-SSA percentage I'm not rehashing that all over again no matter how many times someome reposts one sided info from those old posts.
And really, if someone can't run Haplogrep or navigate Phylotree to confirm or falsify 100% assignment of 16223T to U4a2b then someone is baiting and shouldn't try posting about it on the Egyptology forum. It lowers the bar.
Even with a proper several polymorphism HVSI sequence HVSII and RFLP can reliably overturn a Hg assignment.
The Taforalt crania only yielded HVSI data. No?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
If someone can't run Haplogruop or navigate Phylotree to confirm the assignment of Taforlat VIII 16223T to Hapolgroup L3 then someone is baiting and shouldn't try feelings based posting about it on the Egyptology forum. It lowers the bar.
A Peer reviewed scientific article dated 2018 has reported Taforalt VII 16223T to be U4a2b. Not mentioning this "lowers the bar"
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Gallego-Llorente passed peer review. Skoglund busted a cap in it. Sheeple.
I've reported after navigating Phylotree a few times already as you well know. You however have not.
If you can't contribute anything on • 16223T the Hgs that have it (whew) • U4a2b ___ ancient/current locations & dates ___ MRCA • how to tell Hgs per sequences etc • how can a single HVSI polymorphism be a Hg Then you're trolling and you know it. So please stop it now, thank you.
As a moderator you shouldn't bait and troll. As a moderator you should be silent when you don't have enough background to meaningfully comment.
Mining and verbatim posting what you don't understand and don't attempt to explain is OK but I require more, like analysis in your own words.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
You mentioned Eurasia not Iberia, i.e. Spain and Portugal. 
