posted
is it true they were influcened by libyan and egyptians? the cretans i saw on one of the tombs in egypt . they looked like they came from africa.
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is it true they were influcened by libyan and egyptians? the cretans i saw on one of the tombs in egypt . they looked like they came from africa.
Don't know about the "Libyans" [and what that would entail], but the Nile Valley for sure was influential to the folks of Crete. Writing developed in the Nile Valley seems to have flowed into Europe more than once, because it was to be reintroduced, after it disappeared with the decline of the Minoan controlled complex, via the Phoenicians in the form of alphabets. Myceneans and Classical Greeks drew from the foundations laid by the Minoans, and they [Minoans] were, as mentioned, not "Indo-European" speakers. Makes sense that the people who would bring advance culture into Europe, would not necessarily have been "Indo-European" speakers. This would be the case for "Neolithic" farming economy immigrants into Europe.
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Though the Minoans were an Aegean "white" people their art shows that some of them retained features attributable to the harbingers of E3b-M78 to Anatolia, the Balkans, and southern Europe, and/or copper and bronze age migrants from northern Africa.
An Egyptian view of a Minoan phenotype as seen in these tax paying diplomats at the left, is not actually Minoan art. However the artist painting for Senmut had been exposed to real Minoan art styles as evinced by the fresco from Knossos on the right
which is a segment from the more complete scene below.
The Africans and Europeans of Crete were of one culture and people. The founding culture was North African but the population hailed from other Aegean islands, the Peloponnese mainland, and the Levant as well. Africans weren't the majority. The majority population was the unique comingling that produced the disctinct Minoans as drawn by themselves above right.
Despite scholarly recognition of that fact no one labels Minoans "mixed." As much as Eurocentrists cry that African doesn't mean black why then do they insist that European means white? Quite oxymoronic, no?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The Sir Arthur Evans labelled "Captain of the Blacks" fresco. In this repro they've deliberately excluded the head of the first black runner but you can see it on p.137 if you have The Image of the Black in Western Art Vol. 1
Will keep looking for it on the 'net.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Evidence of the manipulation but still not what's in the book.
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British archaeologist Arthur Evans (1851-1941), who conducted excavations on the island, was convinced of African migrations to ancient Crete. He pointed out that:
"The multiplicity of these connections with the old indigenous race of the opposite African coast, and which we undoubtedly have to deal with in the pre dynastic population of the Nile Valley, can in fact be hardly explained on any other hypothesis than that of an actual settlement in Southern Crete."
The research team of C.H. and H.B. Hawes, the latter of whom, like Evans, conducted important archaeological excavations in Crete, [...] noted that: "Anthropologists are inclined to the view that the Neolithic people of Crete were immigrants, and probably came from North Africa."
Historian H.R. Hall, also Oxford trained, shared Evans' position on the early population of Minoan Crete:
"While the majority of the original Neolithic inhabitants of Crete probably came from Anatolia, another element may well have come in oared boats from the opposite African coast, bringing with them to the southern plain of Messara the seeds of civilization that, transplanted to the different conditions of Crete, developed into the great Minoan culture, a younger more brilliant, and less long-lived sister of that of Egypt."
Whether the Minoan culture was more brilliant than that of Egypt is highly questionable at best, but on the other points Hall seems to just about to hit the mark. Evans, again, indeed considered Egypt and Libya as the springboards of Minoan civilization; so much so that he structured his own Minoan chronology on that of dynastic Egypt. He was particularly struck by the similarities in the contents of the of the tombs of the ancient Minoans and Egyptians:
"So numerous, in fact, are the points, of comparison presented by the contents of these early interments with those of pre dynastic Egypt that, far-fetched as the conclusion might appear at first sight, I was already some years since constrained to put forth the suggestion that about the time of the conquest of the lower Nile Valley by the first historic dynasty some part of the older population had actually settled in this southern foreland of Crete."
Gordon Childe also commented on the relations between Crete and pre dynastic Egypt:
"At least on the Mesara, the great plain of southern Crete facing Africa, Minoan Crete's indebtedness to the Nile is disclosed in the most intimate aspects of its culture. Not only do the forms of early Minoan stone vases, the precision of the lapidaries' technique and the aesthetic selection of variegated stones as his materials carry on the the pre dynastic tradition, Nilotic religious customs such as the use of the sistrum, the wearing of amulets in the forms of legs, mummies and monkeys, and statuettes plainly derived from Gerzean `block figures,' and personal habits revealed by depilatory tweezers of the Egyptian shape and stone unguent palettes from the early tombs and, later, details of costumes such as the penis-sheath and loin-cloth betoken something deeper than the external relations of commerce."
Cretan/Egyptian contacts pick up again in the sixteenth and fifteenth centuries B.C. During the reigns of Egyptian monarchs Makare Hatshepsut and Thutmose III (1504-1447 B.C.) the people of Crete, whom the Egyptians called Keftiu, were graphically portrayed as tribute bearers on the walls of the tombs of the Egyptian nobility.
SOURCES: [i] African Presence In Early Europe, Edited by Ivan Van Sertima Man, God And Civilization, by John G. Jackson
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Is this Theran fresco evidence of pre-1600 BCE relations between Aegean HWA NBW and Sirtean/Cyrenaican Meshwesh or Libu/Rebu?
I take it the nappy haired men at the top are Libyan but those at the bottom are Mykenaean overlords in Minoa judging by their shields and weaponry.
The woman with jug atop head would seem to be African per that cultural skill.
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posted
Bro. al Takruri, I spent the last some days working on a web page to contribute to this discussion. Just finised it and would like to add to it. The pictures you have are really dynamite. I'll download them if you don't mind. I had some comments following the web page (that can be ignored where they veer from the central thrust of the thread - just put them in as they overlapped the theme.
Anatolia in Turkey most say is home of the world’s oldest civilization clocking in near 9000 BC with settlements home to tens of thousands. But (see note below) the great archeologist, James Mellaart, states these people were African! Zoom forward to 2100 BC: Anaolia becomes the homeland of IndoEuropean speakers. But, they didn’t originate there. Their origination was in the Russian Steppes. Furthermore, the original Africans, well, disappeared. I say what happened is that that extremely ancient African civilization spoke this so-called Indo-European and the whites coming from the Steppes absorbed the language. Is this empty speculation? I’d say not as the Tocharians (I have a few pictures) left African figurine of themselves and are Indo-European speakers. So, I propose that this was a huge African community until the Steppe people came. What, though, does this have to do with a web paqe on Minoans and the first Greeks being African? Because the Anatolians practiced bull-jumping (pic 2b), and, hold on to your hats, the Minoans left frecoes in Egypt (Avaris or Tell el Dab’a) and they are Africans bull-jumping (Pic 2a). I have a reference, am not speaking in thin air. Anyone can check out the reference themself, see proof for themself. And, a very intriguing, extremely ancient connection is the following: the Ghananians used the dot-encircled symbol of the sun on both cheeks (13b). But (get ready) you see the identical practice on a seated marble figure (pic 13a) from the Greek island of Euboea of (ready?) 2800 BC!!!!!!
Marc Washington
NOTE:
ANATOLIANS WERE AFRICAN: “The physical types appear to be depicted which may reflect the two dolichocephalic races recognized by the late Professor M. Senyurek in the skeletons from Hacilar; the robust Eurafrican race and the more gracile Proto-Mediterranean race. These naturalistic statues serve as a link between those of Catal Huyuk and the later, larger and more conventional group from Hacilar V-II.”
James Mellaart, Earliest civilizations of the Near East, (Thames and Hudson, London, 1965), p. 8.
-------------------- The nature of homelife is the fate of the nation. Posts: 2334 | Registered: May 2006
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...Their origination was in the Russian Steppes. Furthermore, the original Africans, well, disappeared. I say what happened is that that extremely ancient African civilization spoke this so-called Indo-European and the whites coming from the Steppes absorbed the language. Is this empty speculation?...
Yeap, the speculation is an empty one, because the Greek forebearers, i.e. Neolithic immigrants in ancient Greece mainland and the Minoans of Crete, are deemed not Indo-European speakers.
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Marc, Supercar is correct. You know, I actually considered for a time that you were really a Eurocentist mocking African scholarship by 'reducing to absurdity.'
I don't believe this any more, but I do believe you will continue to make outre' claims.
And Clyde Winters, out of ideological cynicism will continue to 'shine you on', because he views you as ridiculous, but 'on his side', which is more important to him than truth, and so essentially... a useful pawn.
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Population 10 is Greece. Here we have a visual representation of European [red and dark green], Asian [lite green] and African [blue] paternal ancestry in modern Greeks. Greeks are less than 50% paternal European.
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Good work guys, citing the significant yet desperately denied by folks like Hore. LOL @ Hore's desperate reactions to deny and repeating questions to the material!
Some brief and basic info about Greece's history:
1. The cultures of Greece before the advent of Indo-European speakers are known collectively as Aegean Civilizations, and covers areas from mainland/peninsular Greece to the adjacent islands. Agean civilization covers the time period from its development in the Neolithic to its decline in the Bronze Age with Indo-European Hellas (Greeks) making their first appearance in the Bronze Age. Agean civilization is usually divided into 3 parts-- Minoan, corresponding to Crete; Cycladic corresponding to the Cycladic islands; and Helladic, corresponding to mainland Greece. There are a few scholars who include a 4th division-- Cypriot, which corresponds to Cyprus although it was in much latter times that Cyprus was incorporated by the Hellas. It was Aegean civilization that created the roots for later Greek civilization with everything from urbanization, writing (Linear A), to science, architecture etc.
The period after Aegean Civilization was known as the "Dark Age" a period characterized by cultural decline and absense of written records. There were 3 main waves of Indo-European immigration to Greece. The first were the Achaeans or Akhaias whose presence was made in the middle part of the Bronze Age. Many writings from the later Classical period described these first Greeks as "men tall of stature with fair skin, fair hair, and gray eyes". The 2nd wave of Hellas were the Ionians, and after them came the Dorians. It is believed by many scholars that the Dorian "invasion" at the very end of the Bronze Age is what caused the Dark Age.
After the "Dark Age" came the period of Greek history we are all too familiar with-- the Classical Period. It is this period this "flowering" (or rather renaissance) of Greek culture that most scholars on Greek history tend to focus on. And it seems many would have us think that Greek civilization formed in this period first, and ignore the Bronze Age only as that 'legendary age' of myth, heroes, and gods.
Well we know better!
Because the very roots of Greek civilization lie in the Aegean cultures of the Bronze Age and its begginings in the Neolithic, it is in those time periods we must focus on.
Again, Hore cited a Classicist- Cahill who acknowledged that the Indo-European Hellas came upon "indigenous farming people", yet he conveniently forgot to mention it was these people who built the first cities, wrote the first literature, and made the first science of the area.
Let's get a closer examination of these people shall we.
Takruri has already taken the first step in pointing out the origins of the Minoan. Most sources recognized that Minoan culture is the result of Asiatic migrants mainly from Anatolia who mixed peoples already settled there, but few will tell you that these first settled peoples were from Africa.
Early Minoan skull with prognathism Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Djehuti, didn't you say that early Minoan skulls looked like the skull of pharaohs like Seti I? You're saying Seti I was prognathous?
Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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Indeed, the skull depicted above does have that low sloping forehead, indicative of "Mesolithic" Nubian specimens:
The projecting zygomatic arches of Seti I suggest remnants of the old Natufian/Tasian types of the Holocene period. - Images and data referenced from Jim Harris' X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies.
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__Early Minoan skull _________ Skull of Seti I _______
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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And Clyde Winters, out of ideological cynicism will continue to 'shine you on', because he views you as ridiculous, but 'on his side', which is more important to him than truth, and so essentially... a useful pawn.
You are wrong. I view Marc as a great scholar. I believe that his Afrocentric iconographic work /research will go down in the history of Afrocentric scholarship as great evidence for the African role in ancient civilizations.
.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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The archaeological evidence points to only a few reasonable certainties about Minoan history. Around 3000 BC, Crete was settled by a people who probably came from Asia Minor, who, by 2000 BC was already living in cities, trading with other nations in the Mediterranean, and employing a hieroglyphic system of writing, probably derived from Egyptian hieroglyphics. This hieroglyphic writing would eventually evolve into a linear script. They built magnificent palace centers at Knossos, Phaistos, and Kato Zakros; these palaces seem to have dominated Cretan society. We have no idea what language they spoke, but they certainly spoke a non-Hellenic language (that is, a language not closely related to Greek) and probably spoke a non-Indo-European language. "
You are right they did speak a none Indo-European language.
There is evidence for the Minoan language. The language they spoke was related to the Mande group of languages. These Mande speakers formerly occupied a large part of the Fezzan ( in modern Libya)before they migrated to the Niger river valley. The Mande languages are members of the Niger-Congo Superfamily of languages.
Every since Arthur Evans discovered the Hieroglyphic and Linear A writing of Crete there has been a search for the authors of this writing.
Some Grecian traditions indicate that Libyans (called Garamante) formerly lived on Crete. This suggest that some of the Eteocretans may have spoken one of the ancient languages of Libya.
A major group from Libya that settled Crete were the Garamante. Robert Graves in (Vol.1, pp.33-35) maintains that the Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan fused with the inhabitants of the Upper Niger region of West Africa.
This theory is interesting because the chariot routes from the Fezzan terminated at the Niger river. In addition, the Cretan term for king "Minos", agrees with the MandeManding word for ruler "Mansa". Both these terms share consonantal agreement : M N S.
The name Garamante, illustrates affinity to Mande morphology and grammar. The Mande language is a member of the Niger-Congo group of languages. The name for the Manding tribe called "Mande", means Ma 'mother, and nde 'children', can be interpreted as "Children of Ma", or "Mothers children " (descent among this group is matrilineal) .
The word Garamante,can be broken down into Malinke-Bambara into the following monosyllabic words Ga 'hearth', arid, hot'; Mante/Mande , the name of the Mande speaking tribes. This means that the term: Garamante, can be interpreted as "Mande of the Arid lands" or "Arid lands of the children of Ma". This last term is quite interesting because by the time the Greeks and Romans learned about the Garamante, the Fezzan was becoming increasingly arid.
Keftiu
The Egyptians called the Cretans Keftiu. There is agreement between the Keftiu names recorded by Egyptian scribes (T.E. Peet, "The Egyptian writing board BM5647 bearing Keftiu names". In , (ed.) by S Casson (Oxford, 1927, 90-99)), and Manding names.
Keftiu The root kef-, in Keftiu, probably is Ke'be, the name of a Manding clan , plus the locative suffix {i-} used to give the affirmative sense, plus the plural suffix for names {u-}, and the {-te} suffixial element used to denote place names, nationalities and to form words.
On the Egyptian writing board there are eight Keftiu names. These names agree with Manding names:
Keftiu....... Manding
sh h.r........ Sye
Nsy ..........Nsye
'ksh .........Nkyi
Pnrt Pe,..... Beni (name for twins)
'dm ..........Demba
Rs............. Rsa
This analogy between Keftiu and Manding names is startling.
In conclusion, the evidence of similarity between Keftiu names and names from the Manding languages appear to support Graves view that the Eteocretans, who early settled Crete may have spoken a language similar to the Mande people who live near the Niger. Conseqently, there is every possibility that the Linear A script used by the Keftiu, which is analogous to the Libyco Berber writing used by the Proto-Mande .
See:
C. A. Winters, "The influence of the Mande scripts on ancient America", de l'IFAN>, t59, serB, no.1, (1977) pp.941-967.
C.A. Winters, "The ancient manding Script", In , (ed.) by Ivan van Sertima, ( London: Rutgers University Press Transaction Press , 1981) pp.208-214), may be written in an aspect of the Manding (Malinke/Bambara) language.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Population 10 is Greece. Here we have a visual representation of European [red and dark green], Asian [lite green] and African [blue] paternal ancestry in modern Greeks. Greeks are less than 50% paternal European.
If this is modern then why is America majority Q?? I read that that migrartion happened 15,000 years ago.
quote:Originally posted by Tee85: If this is modern then why is America majority Q??
It 'is' modern. It references native americans. [aka 'indians'] They still exist and they are still the indigenous population of America, and always will be.
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oh wow. i thought it was from thousands of years ago.
I thought they would have all colors since alot of "races" live in America--it eould probably be majority E, R, and probable O mixed with P(for Latinos)
Posts: 290 | Registered: Apr 2006
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But Super is correct that Seti's skull displays features associated with Tasians and Natufians.
As for Marc Washington being a "scholar", well I'll just leave that alone.
Any comments about time line of Greek civilization below and its modern historiography?
1. The cultures of Greece before the advent of Indo-European speakers are known collectively as Aegean Civilizations, and covers areas from mainland/peninsular Greece to the adjacent islands. Agean civilization covers the time period from its development in the Neolithic to its decline in the Bronze Age with Indo-European Hellas (Greeks) making their first appearance in the Bronze Age. Agean civilization is usually divided into 3 parts-- Minoan, corresponding to Crete; Cycladic corresponding to the Cycladic islands; and Helladic, corresponding to mainland Greece. There are a few scholars who include a 4th division-- Cypriot, which corresponds to Cyprus although it was in much latter times that Cyprus was incorporated by the Hellas. It was Aegean civilization that created the roots for later Greek civilization with everything from urbanization, writing (Linear A), to science, architecture etc.
The period after Aegean Civilization was known as the "Dark Age" a period characterized by cultural decline and absense of written records. There were 3 main waves of Indo-European immigration to Greece. The first were the Achaeans or Akhaias whose presence was made in the middle part of the Bronze Age. Many writings from the later Classical period described these first Greeks as "men tall of stature with fair skin, fair hair, and gray eyes". The 2nd wave of Hellas were the Ionians, and after them came the Dorians. It is believed by many scholars that the Dorian "invasion" at the very end of the Bronze Age is what caused the Dark Age.
After the "Dark Age" came the period of Greek history we are all too familiar with-- the Classical Period. It is this period this "flowering" (or rather renaissance) of Greek culture that most scholars on Greek history tend to focus on. And it seems many would have us think that Greek civilization formed in this period first, and ignore the Bronze Age only as that 'legendary age' of myth, heroes, and gods.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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What features does Seti I share with Natufians and Tasians (who the hell are those) and what would be a good reconstruction of the man's crania look like?
Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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Precision: "its" refers to the unlabeled jpeg not the person who posted it.
Thanks for the clarification, and hence, my apology due to you, for misreading into the 'intent' of the original post.
quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18:
What features does Seti I share with Natufians and Tasians (who the hell are those) and what would be a good reconstruction of the man's crania look like?
You haven't missed this exemplary piece when it was posted the first time around in this very thread, have you?...
The projecting zygomatic arches of Seti I suggest remnants of the old Natufian/Tasian types of the Holocene period. - Images and data referenced from Jim Harris' X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies.
...And surely by now, with so many discussions on Natufians [and Tasians], you cannot still be unclear about these groups?
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Tasians were an early cultural group of predynastic Egyptian people even older than the Badarians. Whereas Natufians of course were the early Neolithic culture of the Levant. The Natufians were said to closely resemble Tasians in a number of features which gives proof of African expansions into the Levant corresponding with the spread of Neolithic culture.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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"At Voloshki a total of nine crania (six male and three female) have been found. Six of them are "Protomediterranean" and the other three (male) present also some Negroid features which remind of Mesolithic skulls from the M. East (Debetz, 1955), also similar to some of those from the coasts of N. Africa (Ferembach, 1962). However, they are quite different to the typically Negroid skulls found p.ex. in Kenya (Leaky, 1935) and in Sudan (Greene & Armelagos, 1972)."
This is from a Greek anthropologist, stating that sub-saharan affinities were found in Neolithic Greek crania. Where is ARROW99.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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^ Why worry about Hore, I mean "arrow". If he does respond, all he'll do is try to distort or misinterpret the findings above.
Let's take a quick review of the study to show you what I mean when I say how some folks could distort it.
Notice how six of the crania were described as "Proto-Mediterranean". Little do most people know, that term is used to describe the remains of early elongated Africans found in North Africa as well as East Africa. We should all know by now the semantics of "Mediterranean". Also, note how they say the remaining 3 skulls are "negroid" which resemble Mesolithic skulls of the Middle East. The only Mesolithic skulls of the Middle East I know of that possess such "negroid" features is of course the Natufians of the Mesolithic Levant, which the author also cites affinities to other early North African crania. But then notice how the author then points out that even the "negroid" ones differ from the "typically Negroid" crania found by Leaky in Kenya and the Sudan. Again, we run into the Eurocentric semantics of not only "negroid" but how "negroid" is "typically negroid"! This is quite laughable if one remembers the study from Rightmire which also describes elongated ("Mediterranean") type crania in Kenya also!
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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LOL, I acknowledge that the author is playing games with how he defines "Negroid" but lets not forget that "Negroid" is a pseudo-taxon. What's undeniable is that crania with affinities to sub-Saharan Africans were found in Neolithic Greece. I remember Dienekes trying to dance around these very same crania and tried to call Poulianos an Afrocentrist, lol.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by X-Ras: LOL, I acknowledge that the author is playing games with how he defines "Negroid" but lets not forget that "Negroid" is a pseudo-taxon. What's undeniable is that crania with affinities to sub-Saharan Africans were found in Neolithic Greece. I remember Dienekes trying to dance around these very same crania and tried to call Poulianos an Afrocentrist, lol.
Ah, Dienekes, I remember that punk too. I never openly confronted him like you did but it's laughable how he denies the facts, not only in the african influences both in neolithic and classical greece, but of the uh,,, origins of ancient egypt, the fact that race doesn't exist, blacks have the highest natural diversity, and that ethiopians and somalis aren't that ****ing mixed, arrrrgh Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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Anybody got a good zoom of this dagger? The second guy from the left is very likely a "greater KM.t.y". His hair, profile, and lips, contrast with the other men of the hunt. So does his choice of weaponry, the bow. Is he also wearing the patented Ta Seti leather briefs?
posted
What about the lion? If in Greece theirs no proof of lions during the time at home, then this hunt on the pic must have been in nowhere than the african continent which would mean whatever early connection.
Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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Most of us accept the idea that man spread out of Africa to thge rest of the world. The problem is that the argument rasol and others want to make here is beside the point. What they are trying to do is imply that Africa is the germ of the modern world. Thats the MOTIVE for their argument and where they end up at the end of the day. They skip over tens of thousands of years like it was a generation. The hard xold reality is that nothing positive ever came out of Africa. If African civilization as we know it made any meaningful contribution to the world how did it miss totally Africa generally? Fact is classical Greeks are not black africans, they are europeans. Every single Greek scholar bar none states that their culture was home grown. To attach any sort of African tag on an area of Greece is nutty stuff that will never be accepted by serious scholars. It would be tragic if it were not so comical. We have people on this board who are critical of Dr Hawass because he does not support their narrow, racist, bigoted views even though he has a PHD and they lack even a BA. Really, its the argument of losers. People who feel that they are not a part of the modern world and see themselves as victims. "Nothing is my fault, its the fault of the evil, colonialist Europeans." Since I have no place in the system I will simply attack it. The problem is the system doess not care. If the eurocentrists are really as bad as they are presented here why should they listen now?
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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Why are you denying the skeletal evidence of black Africans in Neolithic Greece ARROW99? I mean you asked for it, now you have it, the evidence is overwhelming.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: Most of us accept the idea that man spread out of Africa to thge rest of the world. The problem is that the argument rasol and others want to make here is beside the point. What they are trying to do is imply that Africa is the germ of the modern world. Thats the MOTIVE for their argument and where they end up at the end of the day. They skip over tens of thousands of years like it was a generation. The hard xold reality is that nothing positive ever came out of Africa. If African civilization as we know it made any meaningful contribution to the world how did it miss totally Africa generally? Fact is classical Greeks are not black africans, they are europeans. Every single Greek scholar bar none states that their culture was home grown. To attach any sort of African tag on an area of Greece is nutty stuff that will never be accepted by serious scholars. It would be tragic if it were not so comical. We have people on this board who are critical of Dr Hawass because he does not support their narrow, racist, bigoted views even though he has a PHD and they lack even a BA. Really, its the argument of losers. People who feel that they are not a part of the modern world and see themselves as victims. "Nothing is my fault, its the fault of the evil, colonialist Europeans." Since I have no place in the system I will simply attack it. The problem is the system doess not care. If the eurocentrists are really as bad as they are presented here why should they listen now?
The fact is you are talking nonsense. Nobody said that Greeks were black Africans. What we said was that both the cultures of Crete and Hellenic Greece were influenced by black Africans and had a segment of the population descended from black African migrants. Hellenic Greece in particular was heavily influenced by Egypt in terms of Architecture, religion and other ways. YOU on the other hand keep clinging to this notion of racial purity for ancient Greeks as if it is an absolute truth that is above all others. No group is PURE, especially not Europeans. What is true is that Europeans have created a MYTH of racial purity and superiority that they have FORCED down the throats of everyone else during the last 2000 years. Black Africans and blacks elsewhere on the planet have made signifigant contributions to human history, since MOST human history took place OUTSIDE of Europe and among the aboriginal populations of Africa and Asia, many of whom WERE black. It is Europe and their desire to reign supreme as the UNIVERSAL symbol of human intelligence who has tried to ERASE all traces of BLACKS in world history, in order to maintain a myth of RACIAL superiority among whites. Then when someone SPEAKS UP and tells the truth, some want to act shocked as if they are IGNORANT of the racist history of Europe and European peoples. Please..... get a life and stop trying to live as a child in a grown man's world. Grown men accept the reality that ALL humans are imperfect and NO ONE has the right to claim that they are GOD'S gift to mankind. Only CHILDREN scream and holler and try and keep all the attention and praise for being something THEY ARE NOT.
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Arrow99, What about what the Ancient Greeks said? - Are you aware of how long Pythagoras was in Egypt (for SCHOLARLY reasons) before he later 'invented' the 'Pythagorean theorem'. Every ancient Greek scholar is linked to africa or india. Daidolos is rumored to be A Egyptian or mixed (Like ancient Greece period).
quote:If African civilization as we know it made any meaningful contribution
Arrow, do you consider math positive?
Arrow99, do you consider the internet positive? (recent)
quote: If African civilization as we know it made any meaningful contribution to the world how did it miss totally Africa generally?
There wasMath and Science in Africa. Do you know where ammonium comes from?
How do you think they built the pyramids, Greeks?
Oh yeah, I forgot:
quote:It was the egyptians NOT africans
And, just wondering, would you like to know what Greeks thought of europeans, with respect to themselves and africans. Or with respect to themselves racially? (Doubt it)
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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Much to our surprise, the reason why Greeks did not show a close relatedness with all the other Mediterraneans analyzed was their genetic relationship with sub-Saharan ethnic groups now residing in Ethiopia, Sudan and West Africa (Burkina-Fasso). Although some Greek DRB1 alleles are not completely specific of the Greek/sub-Saharan sharing, the list of alleles is self-explanatory. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt. (Source: HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks)
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Posts: 1549 | From: California, USA | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: Most of us accept the idea that man spread out of Africa to thge rest of the world. The problem is that the argument rasol and others want to make here is beside the point.
What argument is that?
quote:What they are trying to do is imply that Africa is the germ of the modern world.
No - but geneticists, anthropologists, linguists and historians state that the Greeks are partly of African descent.
You don't like this, but can't refute it.
So your weak recourse is to attack the messanger, hence you write....
quote:Thats the MOTIVE for their argument
Professor Arrow, when are you going to learn how to make a proper scholarly argument?
* You cannot attack the 'motive' of those you disagree with.
** You must argue the facts and the specifics.
There is not a single specific in your post, there is only the usual mindless babbling.
You've lost again Professor.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Anybody got a good zoom of this dagger? The second guy from the left is very likely a "greater KM.t.y". His hair, profile, and lips, contrast with the other men of the hunt. So does his choice of weaponry, the bow. Is he also wearing the patented Ta Seti leather briefs?
Posts: 1549 | From: California, USA | Registered: Jan 2006
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what is funny is that greeks have more african genes than most horners have non african genes but people always try to say horners are mixed.
Posts: 216 | From: london | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by salah: what is funny is that greeks have more african genes than most horners have non african genes but people always try to say horners are mixed.
Off course Greeks are genetically mixed and there is skeletal evidence ofr black Africans in Greece. professor Hore keeps ignoring this.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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Genetics makes no links between any black Africans and historicc Greeks , of any kind. I asked you to prove that over and over and all you could say is that the genes are there with NO specifics to prove your case. Reading the Brace study you cannot even prove that neolithics carrying the gene were still even black, when the gene was introduced etc. this is a shamp put forth by people who come from a cultural background that is out of the loop in the creation of the modern world who wish to piggyback onto the acomplishments of others.
quote:
I don't really know Arrow's agenda, but he does have a point here. Most of the posters on this site are African Americans that come from African tribes that haven't contributed anything to the modern world and were basically swinging on trees during the time of Egypt. So I don't understand the need to call northern Europeans barbarians when noone is more barbaric and primative than African Americans and the tribes they come from. And it does seem like they are trying to be a part of the building of civilization by so called "setting the record straight" about Egypt when Egypt has nothing to do with them.
Posts: 141 | Registered: Oct 2006
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Arrow stated "24% of Greek males ARE NOT of East African . Twenty four percent carry a gene, if indeed that is the case, but what connection it has to Africa in terms of time is unknown" but if you have a genetic marker, it indicates some type of exposure in the recent or distant past. Obviously in that sample the Greeks were not East African! The gene is at best, recessive (not dominant) but if that other person connects with another with that recessive gene, then said gene becomes dominant. Universal law!
Just like the question: Why is sickle cell more dominant in Southern Europe vis a vis Northern Europe? Exposure mimicking an African environment! What else?
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by tutemkasret: Genetics makes no links between any black Africans and historicc Greeks , of any kind. I asked you to prove that over and over and all you could say is that the genes are there with NO specifics to prove your case. Reading the Brace study you cannot even prove that neolithics carrying the gene were still even black, when the gene was introduced etc. this is a shamp put forth by people who come from a cultural background that is out of the loop in the creation of the modern world who wish to piggyback onto the acomplishments of others.
quote:
I don't really know Arrow's agenda, but he does have a point here. Most of the posters on this site are African Americans that come from African tribes that haven't contributed anything to the modern world and were basically swinging on trees during the time of Egypt. So I don't understand the need to call northern Europeans barbarians when noone is more barbaric and primative than African Americans and the tribes they come from. And it does seem like they are trying to be a part of the building of civilization by so called "setting the record straight" about Egypt when Egypt has nothing to do with them.
Which tribes do "African Americans" come from that actually "swung from trees"??? Hell, I wanna know where I come from
Some people on this board are actually un-watered down "Africans" and not African Americans who say Egypt is "Black", just to let you know Posts: 290 | Registered: Apr 2006
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Well that's part of the problem you DON'T know nor CARE about where you come from which is sad. All the study of Egyptian and Greek genetics yet no African American dare cares about THEIR genetics. Most of the posters here are African Americans and as far as un-watered down Africans; you can't be un-watered down and worship arab, white and jewish gods sorry ..as far as swinging on trees thats just a euphemism for primative hunter gatherers lol it's not literal.
Posts: 141 | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Genetics makes no links between any black Africans and historicc Greeks , of any kind. I asked you to prove that over and over and all you could say is that the genes are there with NO specifics to prove your case.
The roots of Greek civilization was African. The original founders of Grecian civilization were dark pigmented Pelasgians.
Although these people of the Heroic age came from diverse origins, the Aryan-Greeks called them Pelasgians. According to the Greeks, the first man was Pelasgus--ancestor of the Pelasgians. The Pelasgians were a combination of different Black tribes called Achaeans, Cadmeans, Leleges, Carians or Garamantes.
The term Pelasgian was applied to all these pre-Hellenic inhabitants of Greece. R.J. Hopper, in The Early Greeks, noted that "indeed the classical Greeks believed in the separate existence of diverse ethnic elements side by side, and thought particularly of the Pelasgians in this connection".
According to tradition, the Pelasgians inhabited Arcadia and many Aegean Islands. These Blacks took their own writing to Greece which was later used by the Aryan-Greeks. According to Herodotus quadrigas or four-horse chariots were introduced to Greeks by the Libyans .
The Aryan-Greeks adopted the language of the Pelasgians and Egyptians. The linguistic evidence shows that there was a differentiation of Greece into East Greek and West Greek. The Black Greeks spoke East Greek (Achaioi or Achaean). West Greek was spoken by the Dorian or Aryan Greeks. The earliest Aryan tribe called Ionians spoke a dialect of East Greek called Aeolic.
Many classical scholars teach the world that the Greek language is entirely Indo-European. This view of Greek is wrong.
Dr. Anna Morpurgo Davies, has made it clear that "less than 40% of the words which have an Indo-European etymology". According to Dr. Davies, 52.2 % of the Greek terms in Chantraine's Dictionnaire Etymologique de la langue Grecque (1968) have an unknown etymology. The mixed nature of the Greek language results from the early settlement of the Aegean by Blacks from Africa, especially Egypt and Libya.
Some of these words are of African origin. Robert K.G. Temple, in The Sirius Mystery, shows that many of the most common words of the Greek vocabulary are of Egyptian origin. Diop (1991) has also discussed the Egyptian origin for many Greek terms.
Given the fact that the Greek language lacks full cognation with Indo-European languages proves that Indo Europeans were not the founders of Greecian civilization. To know Greece, we must look to Egypt and the rest of Africa to explain the origin of this civilization.
There is also genetic evidence that supports and African origin for the Greeks. Check out this papers:
HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks.
Arnaiz-Villena A, Dimitroski K,Pacho A, Moscoso J, Gomez-Casado E, Silvera-Redondo C, Varela P, Blagoevska M, Zdravkovska V,Martinez-Laso J.
Molecular Biology, H. 12 de Octubre, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain. aarnaiz@...
HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances,neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed. The following conclusions have been reached: 1) Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese,Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt.
PMID: 11260506 [PubMed -indexed for MEDLINE]
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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..as far as swinging on trees thats just a euphemism for primative hunter gatherers lol it's not literal.
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