These are Mauretanians. These mauretanians have features similar to those found amongst the Beja and other Sudanic, Nilotic and Ethiopic Africans. This seems to confirm what has been posted already, namely migrations from East Africa being the basis of the original populations speaking Berber languages. Mauretania was ORIGINALLY a Berber speaking region, before there was even a country called Mauretania. The people there were semi nomadic, with those of the South being more sedentary, with villages having been found in Tichitt going back to at least 2,000 BC.
These Mauretanians at Tichitt and other settlements are believed to have been Mande speakers, not Berber speakers.
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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How does that change the fact that a large part of the Mauretanian population used to speak Zenaga, a berber language as well? Those are the Berber speaking populations I am referring to. It is from them that the name Senegal derives, which is in the South of Mauretania and is derived from Zenaga which is another term for Sanhaja.
Posts: 8897 | Registered: May 2005
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I used to believe too that the original inhabitants of Mauretania and much of the Sahara were proto-Berber speakers. But, I do not now think that the Ancient Saharans were all proto-Berber.
The original inhabitants of Mauretania were the Bafur. Dr. Winters says they were Mande speakers. Others say the same as Dr. Winters, that they were proto-Soninke who were Mande speakers.
I just found out that there is Rock Art in Sierra Leone. I can imagine there is Rock art in the countires north of Sierra Leone to Mauretania where I know Rock Art exists.
There is a French language article about a recent Rock Art find in Southern Morocco that shows Black people dancing around just like in Tassili-n- Ajjer and Ennedi, etc. Those Blacks in the newest Moroccan Rock Art paintings were described as Bantu or Hottentot.
The West Atlantic Language Family is proto-Bantu and many of the names of the people groups along the western coast of Africa have names beginning with Ba like
Bassari Balanta Banta Bak Banyun Baga and more...
Beafada is in Senegal and sounds pretty close to Bafur the original Mauretanians. Look closely at the Rock Art and try to determine are those people displayed really proto-Berber types.
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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quote:I used to believe too that the original inhabitants of Mauretania and much of the Sahara were proto-Berber speakers. But, I do not now think that the Ancient Saharans were all proto-Berber.
Of course they were not. The progenitars of some of the Kemetians and Cushites, the Fulani, and others were all among the original North Africans.
Need to understand that in the Holocene, the desert that properly denotes sahara largely ceased to exist.
The sahara dried out in the pre-neolithic. Populatons of various language groups went North South and settled Nile Valley.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian: Doug M,
I used to believe too that the original inhabitants of Mauretania and much of the Sahara were proto-Berber speakers. But, I do not now think that the Ancient Saharans were all proto-Berber.
The original inhabitants of Mauretania were the Bafur. Dr. Winters says they were Mande speakers. Others say the same as Dr. Winters, that they were proto-Soninke who were Mande speakers.
I just found out that there is Rock Art in Sierra Leone. I can imagine there is Rock art in the countires north of Sierra Leone to Mauretania where I know Rock Art exists.
There is a French language article about a recent Rock Art find in Southern Morocco that shows Black people dancing around just like in Tassili-n- Ajjer and Ennedi, etc. Those Blacks in the newest Moroccan Rock Art paintings were described as Bantu or Hottentot.
The West Atlantic Language Family is proto-Bantu and many of the names of the people groups along the western coast of Africa have names beginning with Ba like
Bassari Balanta Banta Bak Banyun Baga and more...
Beafada is in Senegal and sounds pretty close to Bafur the original Mauretanians. Look closely at the Rock Art and try to determine are those people displayed really proto-Berber types.
You have misinterpereted what I said. Nobody said that the first inhabitants of the Sahara were proto-Berbers. What I said was that Mauretania was eventually OCCUPIED by nomadic Berber speakers from the Sahara who would be descended fromt the proto-berber speaking populations from East Africa. THAT explains why many of these Mauretanians would have looks similar to Nilotic, Ethiopic and Sudanic peoples. The point being that the arrival of Berber speakers did not mean the arrival of NON BLACK populations into Mauretania. This is often implied by many scholars who write about the history of the Berbers which becomes synonymous with white African, which is absolutely not the case, especially not with the original proto berber populations who crossed the sahara from East Africa. So even if these proto-Berber populations interacted with people already present, it does not mean that they were in conflict because of ethnic or physical differences like later waves of arabized muslim Berbers or Arab tribes who arrived long after the original arrival of the original Sanhaja clans of Berber speakers from the Sahara who entered Mauretania. Keep in mind that the trans-saharan trade routes existed long before Muslims arrived in Mauretania and goes as far back as Egyptian caravan routes across the desert in the East. Therefore, these nomadic populations have always been there and facilitated the long distance trade of the more settled communities of the oases and sahelian regions, like Southern Mauretania, home of old Ghana.
Posts: 8897 | Registered: May 2005
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The creamy TMHHW in Seti I's tomb have features that resemble the Zenaga that DougM linked and I posted.
The TMHHW are not associated with the Maghreb al Aqsa but with the region from Cyrenaica to the Western Egyptian Delta (i.e., eastern Libya, far northwest Egypt) and from there south in vicinity of oases west of Yam/Kerma.
The Riffians and Kabyles only have the creamy colour. We must begin to look beyond only mere colour for true resemblances.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Takruri, I don't know how you could ask such a thing when TMHHW appear to have the same features as those modern day people and that both groups are associated with the western part of North Africa, not to mention that the modern day Rif and Kabyle speak African (Berber) languages.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian: Doug M,
I used to believe too that the original inhabitants of Mauretania and much of the Sahara were proto-Berber speakers. But, I do not now think that the Ancient Saharans were all proto-Berber.
The original inhabitants of Mauretania were the Bafur. Dr. Winters says they were Mande speakers. Others say the same as Dr. Winters, that they were proto-Soninke who were Mande speakers.
I just found out that there is Rock Art in Sierra Leone. I can imagine there is Rock art in the countires north of Sierra Leone to Mauretania where I know Rock Art exists.
There is a French language article about a recent Rock Art find in Southern Morocco that shows Black people dancing around just like in Tassili-n- Ajjer and Ennedi, etc. Those Blacks in the newest Moroccan Rock Art paintings were described as Bantu or Hottentot.
The West Atlantic Language Family is proto-Bantu and many of the names of the people groups along the western coast of Africa have names beginning with Ba like
Bassari Balanta Banta Bak Banyun Baga and more...
Beafada is in Senegal and sounds pretty close to Bafur the original Mauretanians. Look closely at the Rock Art and try to determine are those people displayed really proto-Berber types.
Can you scan the picture, or post the website address.
Please take the time to compare and contrast the pictured Zenaga with the Seti I tomb TMHHW for: * Facial profile - straight (orthognous) * Chin - tufted goatee beard * Hair - thick locks * Nose - thin nostrils, well defined bridge * Face - gaunt (narrow) * Body - slim wiry build
There's a vast plethora of phenotypes between and among "Sudanic, Nilotic and Ethiopic Africans." Don't be overly simplistic in lumping so many peoples into a category only a handfull actually fit.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Great find DougM! I hail your image search skills. And following hard upon Rasol's comment, with their facial features and locks of hair, these guys almost look like they could've walked right off the wall of the TMHHW section of Seti I's tomb vignette 30 of BG 4:5.
Makes me wonder more and more if the pale colouring may've been symbolically expressive of their dwelling in Ament.x3st a.k.a. the Duat (Twat) -- land of the dead, and death's symbolic color was ... ... well, er, um ... you know ... white.
Do you mean tehenu or temehu? One is supposedly the aboriginal population of "Libyans", the other is supposedly a foreign derived group who came later.
These are Mauretanians. These mauretanians have features similar to those found amongst the Beja and other Sudanic, Nilotic and Ethiopic Africans.
...
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
It seems to me you times and palces and peoples all mixed up.
Dr. Winters is absolutely correct. The stone building civilization of the Hodh/Awkar/Tagant was Mande, more precisely Soninke.
The Zenaga have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with it.
If anything, they may have been among those whose raids contributed to the decline of Tichitt-Walata.
However, they may have also been useful in caravaneering once the Soninke decided to include dessert destinations within their already extensive trade network.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: ^^So?
How does that change the fact that a large part of the Mauretanian population used to speak Zenaga, a berber language as well? Those are the Berber speaking populations I am referring to. It is from them that the name Senegal derives, which is in the South of Mauretania and is derived from Zenaga which is another term for Sanhaja.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
^^What I was posting is the fact that Black African populations are the basis of Berber culture and language who spread across the Sahara from East Africa. These populations share traits with SOME Sudanic, Ethiopic and Nilotic populations, particularly those like the Beja. Whatever the Tehenu looked like, creamy, tan or polka dot, they are NOT the basis of the populations from the Eastern Africa who originally migrated across the Sahara and eventually entered Mauretania. Likewise, it is not necessarily true that this entrance into Mauretania was responsible for the destruction of Tichitt Walata because it probably occurred in a period long before the introduction of Islam and the eventual destruction of Walatta. It was after the Arabization/Islamization of Berber speaking groups that they began to be against animist African groups. To be clear, the entrance of Berber speakers into Mauretania was long before the introduction of Islam and therefore cannot be equated with the nature of the interactions between these groups AFTER the Islamization of these groups.
As for the facial features, profiles, hair styles and other attributes of the Tehenu, I would say that they are only a Northern Coastal branch of African populations and cultures that were already there. For example, some Peul also have traditions very similar to these ancient Tehenu. But the Peul are also descended from ancient Saharan populations that predate Berber expansions. The reason the Tehenu, creamy complexioned or otherwise, get more attention is because of the archeaological artifacts from Egypt. However, I would say that it is an overgeneralization to think that the full range of the culture and people from the Coast of "Libya" to Southern Egypt was exactly like that of the tomb of Seti I and it definitely does not represent a coastal population introduction traits and traditions INTO Africa, as opposed to traditions being shared among a wide variety of African populations, including those who happened to be near the coast. Many of these traits existed prior to the advent of Berber speakers, but became associated with them as they moved from East to West. You have various trends in culture, appearance, dress and other attributes that are not strictly associated with Berber speakers, even though the association has often been made between the two.
Posts: 8897 | Registered: May 2005
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These Mauretanians at Tichitt and other settlements are believed to have been Mande speakers, not Berber speakers.
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Could you give me a quote for this with a reference? Augustin Holl . 1985. "Subsistence Patterns of the Dhar Tichitt Neolithic, Mauritania," [italics] The African Archaeological Review[/italics] 3:151-162 and --- 2002. "Time, Space, and Image Making:Rock Art from the Dhar Tichitt (Mauritania)," [italics]The African Archaeological Review[/italics] 19(2): 75-118. does not name any group as the settlers of Dhar Tichitt. He says that the Berbers came after these settlements were abandoned. Thanks
Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007
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These Mauretanians at Tichitt and other settlements are believed to have been Mande speakers, not Berber speakers.
. Could you give me a quote for this with a reference? Augustin Holl . 1985. "Subsistence Patterns of the Dhar Tichitt Neolithic, Mauritania," [italics] The African Archaeological Review[/italics] 3:151-162 and --- 2002. "Time, Space, and Image Making:Rock Art from the Dhar Tichitt (Mauritania)," [italics]The African Archaeological Review[/italics] 19(2): 75-118. does not name any group as the settlers of Dhar Tichitt. He says that the Berbers came after these settlements were abandoned. Thanks
You can go and read some of the research of P.J. Munson, one of the original excavators at Tichitt. Munson (1980) based his conclusion that the Soninke founded Tichitt on the dwellings, storehouses and pottery he excavated at Tichitt which resembled Diawara or Soninke material (see: pp.462-463).
Archaeology and the Prehistoric Origins of the Ghana Empire, by Patrick J. Munson The Journal of African History, Vol. 21, No. 4 (1980), pp. 457-466
Robert Letan a Frenchman is claiming Ancient Europeans introduced megalithic technology to NW Africa and it passed to the Blacks hinting at the Senegambian megaliths.
What about Nabta Playa?
Des Vikings dans le Sud marocain ? Accueil > Culture
Avant l’islamisation du Maroc, des hommes d’Europe du Nord seraient venus, par la mer, dans le sud du pays à la recherche du cuivre dont ils avaient besoin pour forger leurs armes. Une thèse que la découverte récente de mégalithes funéraires et de peintures rupestres semble accréditer
C’était en juillet 2001. Fatimatou Malika bent Benata avait planté sa khaïma, la tente décorée qu’affectionnent les nomades du Sahara, aux abords du puits d’Aouinet Azguer. Arrivée au plus étroit de la vallée, là où les gazelles laissent la trace de leurs pattes dans le sable, elle s’était mise à chercher un abri : le soleil cognait fort et elle craignait que son plus jeune fils ne prenne un coup de chaud. Elle avait fini par se glisser, avec l’enfant, sous l’une de ces tables rocheuses qui découpent la falaise comme autant de tranches de cake. Quelle ne fut pas alors sa surprise d’apercevoir, peints sur le plafond, des dessins dans un état de conservation parfait. Il y avait des hommes nus, armés d’un arc, dansant autour d’un bœuf - azguer, en berbère, signifie bœuf - et toutes sortes d’animaux sauvages : antilopes, bouquetins, chevreuils, félins, éléphants, autruches. Qui était l’artiste qui avait réalisé de si jolis dessins ocre rouge dans un endroit aussi peu propice à l’habitation et à quand tout cela pouvait-il bien remonter ? Fatimatou était perplexe. Son premier réflexe avait été d’effacer ces peintures avec de l’eau. Elle n’avait pas réussi à les diluer. Elle avait alors senti confusément que les scènes qui se succédaient au fur et à mesure qu’elle se glissait sous la roche renvoyaient à des rites remontant à la nuit des temps.
« Là où il y avait des gravures, on pouvait être sûr qu’il y avait une mine »
De retour au village de M’seied, elle s’empresse d’alerter le khalifa Babouzaid el-Mghafri, qui, à son tour, prévient le caïd, lequel informe le gouverneur de la province de Tan-Tan. Une fois les autorités de Rabat averties, les « photos » que la nomade Fatimatou a découvertes par hasard au plafond de son abri-sous-roche commencent à susciter des convoitises. Le khalifa de M’seied, un sympathique quinquagénaire qui devint plus tard « découvreur » d’art préhistorique, informe un journaliste auteur de plusieurs guides spécialisés sur les pistes du Maroc, Jacques Gandini, de l’existence des peintures rupestres. Ce dernier, qui est en train de boucler l’un de ses ouvrages sur cette région, décide de monter une expédition. Il invite à se joindre à lui un archéologue français installé depuis près de soixante ans au Maroc, Robert Letan. En plus des peintures, exceptionnelles pour la région - jusqu’à présent, ce sont essentiellement des gravures qui ont été trouvées dans cette partie occidentale du Sahara, contrairement au Tassili algérien ou au Tibesti tchadien - ils vont découvrir, dans la partie supérieure de l’oued de Chebeika, une quarantaine de constructions et de structures mégalithiques en forme de croissants de grande dimension. La présence de ces tumulus « géoglyphes » - assez semblables à ceux inventoriés par Théodore Monod en 1948, que l’on retrouve dans tout le Sahara marocain et mauritanien - est une autre trouvaille majeure. Ces découvertes relancent les craintes de pillages. Sauf à interdire l’accès des sites aux chercheurs, le Centre national du patrimoine rupestre, à Marrakech, qui dépend du ministère de la Culture et de la Communication, n’a en effet pas les moyens de contrôler la zone. Jacques Gandini est critiqué pour avoir publié les coordonnées GPS des peintures d’Azguer et Robert Letan pour les avoir commentées dans le quotidien Aujourd’hui le Maroc... Ils se défendent, par presse interposée. « La promotion de la région, estime Jacques Gandini, prévaut sur des considérations archéologiques. » Il affirme avoir reçu l’aval du ministère du Tourisme et le soutien des gouverneurs de région pour dire tout le bien qu’il pense des quelque 350 sites préhistoriques recensés au Maroc.
A 82 ans, Robert Letan garde bon pied, bon oeil quand il s’agit de crapahuter sur des sites archéologiques. Le regard droit, la narine pincée et la casquette solidement rivée sur la tête dès qu’il sort de chez lui, ce soldat de l’artillerie coloniale, ancien combattant de la Seconde Guerre mondiale, a passé sa vie à fouiller les déserts caillouteux de l’Atlas et de l’Anti-Atlas. « A l’époque, nous n’avions ni le confort d’un 4 x 4 climatisé ni la sécurité du GPS », se souvient-t-il. Pour ce natif de Lorraine, qui appartient à une génération d’autodidactes contrainte de quitter les bancs de l’école « pour apprendre à tuer ! », l’Afrique, et plus particulièrement le Maroc, où il est arrivé en 1944, a réveillé une soif inextinguible : celle d’une quête des origines que son travail dans les mines a encore aiguisé. « Connaître l’histoire de l’humanité nous rassure, nous ouvre des voies, parce qu’elle relativise les paniques à venir, nous montre que la fin du monde n’est pas pour demain. En définitive, l’ingénieur gagne toujours sur le marchand ! » insistait-il, lors d’une conférence visant à expliquer à ses collègues l’art rupestre trop longtemps sous-estimé en Afrique, alors qu’il fait partie, selon lui, des prémices de l’écriture. Son but ? Aider les autorités marocaines à développer un tourisme « intelligent », qui permette de préserver les sites archéologiques tout en autorisant les populations à profiter des retombées de découvertes dont elles sont souvent spoliées ou bien les dernières à être informées. « Sans mes écrits, jamais on n’aurait attribué la trouvaille des peintures de Tan-Tan à une nomade ! » dit-il fièrement. Même s’il est le premier à dénoncer le vandalisme qui met en danger ces trésors de l’humanité et qui a obligé, par exemple, les découvreurs de la grotte de Lascaut à créer une grotte artificielle pour satisfaire le public : toucher les peintures avec ses doigts ; essayer de renforcer leur couleur en les mouillant ; marquer leur pourtour avec un crayon feutre ou même à papier ; sans parler des vols, notamment dans les tombes. « Autant d’hérésies qui me font frémir quand on sait combien le Sahara et particulièrement le Maroc ont été peu explorés jusqu’à présent ! » s’indigne-t-il.
Préserver les sites archéologiques
Pour conjurer une histoire personnelle tourmentée dont cet ancien communiste qui participa aux combats syndicaux de 1936 s’est « libéré » dans ses deux premiers romans (Le Pied-Noir et Sofia, l’insoumise, édités à compte d’auteur et en vente à Casablanca), tout en menant de front des recherches historiques de longue haleine sur son pays d’adoption, « Monsieur Robert » a consacré un ouvrage entier à la protohistoire du Sud marocain. Actuellement en cours de réédition afin d’y inclure les découvertes de Tan-Tan, il réitère la thèse d’une influence scandinave sur la métallurgie du cuivre dans les montagnes de l’Anti-Atlas à l’âge du bronze. Car, en plus d’être écrivain, historien et archéologue, Robert Letan est aussi métallurgiste. Sa principale découverte, il la doit à une affectation à Irhem, dans les monts de l’Anti-Atlas, qui regorgent de mines de cuivre dans lesquelles il a mis au jour une grande profusion de peintures rupestres. « A tel point que, là où il y avait des gravures, on pouvait être sûr qu’il y avait une mine. » Pour lui, le commerce du cuivre s’est produit avant et pendant l’âge du bronze. Les « hommes rouges venus du cœur de la mer », dont parlent les anciens manuscrits hébreux du haut Draa, étaient probablement les ancêtres des Vikings, les Dan’s, qui sont venus chercher jusque dans le Sud marocain la matière première dont ils avaient besoin pour forger leurs armes. L’usage du cuivre s’est développé vers 3000 avant Jésus-Christ autour du bassin méditerranéen, contribuant ainsi à l’idée qu’une extension de la civilisation s’est effectuée depuis le Moyen-Orient vers l’ouest. Mais, avec l’épuisement des gisements, les peuples scandinaves sont venus se ravitailler toujours plus au sud, d’abord sur le site d’Almeria, en Espagne, avant de remonter le fleuve Draa (entre 500 avant Jésus-Christ et 500 après), jusqu’à Zagora, où convergeaient les lingots de cuivre et l’ambre. « L’incursion des Vikings dans la vallée du Draa ne s’est faite qu’après leur conversion au christianisme, probablement en même temps que leurs raids sur le sud de l’Espagne et le nord du Maroc. Ce qui permet aussi de dater cette mystérieuse Seita, reine chrétienne, dont parlent les manuscrits hébreux, qui pourrait être l’ancêtre des Touaregs. »
Peuple mystérieux aux yeux des conquérants arabes et des explorateurs occidentaux, les Touaregs puisent leurs origines dans la civilisation berbère saharienne. Le mythe d’Amamellen, concepteur d’une écriture propre, ancêtre du tifinagh, renvoie à une écriture cunéiforme non sans similitude avec celle qui est exposée au Musée national, à Copenhague. Quant au mythe fondateur des femmes, il dit que la reine Ti-n-Hinan (« Celle des tentes ») et sa servante Takama, venues du Tafilalet (Maroc) sur leur méhari blanc, auraient trouvé à leur arrivée dans l’Ahaggar un peuple primitif, les Isebaten, avec lequel elles auraient eu des filles. Ainsi, les tribus nobles du Hoggar descendraient des trois filles de Ti-n-Hinan, alors que celles de Takama seraient les mères des tribus vassales. Selon cette légende, Ti-n-Hinan aurait été enterrée au Ve siècle, bien avant l’arrivée de l’islam dans le Sahara. D’elle, les Touaregs auraient hérité leur langue en plus d’une société matriarcale organisée selon un mode tribal. La recherche de la berbérité, Lahoucine Faouzi, 32 ans, en a fait la clef de son succès. Pour cet explorateur originaire d’Agadir, grand amoureux du désert et de la vie nomade, le jackpot est arrivé avec la diffusion en 2001 à la télévision marocaine, pour la première fois en langue amazigh, d’un long-métrage que sa maison de production, Faouzi Vision, a produit et réalisé. « Quand j’ai proposé une série de 24 documentaires dans le cadre d’une nouvelle émission consacrée au voyage, Amouddou, la RTM (Radio-Télévision marocaine) a signé tout de suite », raconte-t-il. Le premier épisode, Mémoire de Tagmoute, qui raconte l’histoire d’un village préhistorique, véritable légende vivante à cause de la présence de pierres rupestres, de greniers anciens et du tombeau du prophète Daniel, a reçu le prix du meilleur réalisateur au Festival du Caire en juillet 2002. Grand amateur de spéléologie, Lahoucine Faouzi a fondé en 1996 avec quelques amis une association regroupant une trentaine de membres, ce qui lui a permis d’explorer un grand nombre de grottes. « Il était normal que nous nous intéressions aux peintures rupestres », explique Aziz Iguiss, président de l’association et fonctionnaire au ministère des Finances. Passionné de préhistoire, il a poussé pour qu’une émission d’Amouddou soit consacrée aux peintures d’Azguer, qu’il considère comme un « patrimoine unique pour l’archéologie marocaine ». Avec la complicité de Robert Letan, Faouzi Vision a monté une nouvelle expédition à Tan-Tan, en novembre 2003. « L’initiative de ces jeunes gens est la bienvenue parce qu’elle va susciter des vocations. On manque de volontaires au Maroc pour entreprendre des fouilles », commente l’intéressé.
Des liens étroits entre la berbérité et la négritude
L’expédition s’est mise en route avec la bénédiction du khalifa de M’seied, très fier de montrer une inscription en tifinagh évoquant des temps récents où les éléphants vivaient encore à Tazzout Ouarkziz. Une fois sur place, elle s’est glissée sous les abris en plein désert, rampant du mieux qu’elle le pouvait. La diffusion de la lumière, l’exiguïté du passage, la raréfaction de l’air, tout cela formait comme un halo magique autour des fragiles pictogrammes millénaires. Robert Letan semblait avoir retrouvé la dextérité de ses 20 ans. Il était intarissable. Sous le charme, on franchissait allègrement les siècles. On s’étonnait des formes stéatopyges - le développement d’une masse graisseuse dans la région du sacrum et des fesses - des personnages représentés, la plupart nus, avec un étui pénien, dansant autour d’animaux. S’agissait-il de Bochimans en provenance d’Afrique méridionale, voire de Hottentots ou de Bantous ? L’existence de barrières naturelles difficilement franchissables rendait cette hypothèse peu probable. Même si les danseurs d’Azguer confirment que, à l’instar de ceux dont on a découvert les traces dans des gisements néolithiques du Sud tunisien, algérien ou marocain, des pasteurs négroïdes auraient pu s’établir dans la vallée du Draa, restée très fertile après l’assèchement intervenu au IIIe millénaire avant Jésus-Christ.
Plus important pour Robert Letan, la présence de chars peints, qui, contrairement à ceux qui ont été retrouvés dans le Sahara central, ne sont pas attelés. Ce type de char « à traction humaine » renforce selon lui l’hypothèse selon laquelle les peintures d’Azguer seraient plus récentes qu’il n’y paraît - « une date proche du bronze final européen ». Si ces chars sont essentiellement destinés au transport du cuivre, comme il l’affirme, il est alors possible de penser que ces populations (noires) ont été en contact avec des constructeurs de mégalithes de surface (les Vikings) venus du nord de l’Europe. Dans son ouvrage consacré aux Premiers Berbères. Entre Méditerranée, Tassili et Nil, l’Algérienne Malika Hachid, directrice du Parc national du Tassili des Ajjer, affirme qu’il existe « des liens bien plus étroits qu’on ne l’aurait pensé entre la berbérité et la négritude ». Selon elle, les Libyens et les Ethiopiens d’hier seraient les Touaregs et les Izzegaren-Harratine d’aujourd’hui. Les peintures d’Azguer viennent rajouter à la mosaïque humaine complexe du Sahara les juifs yéménites et les populations nordiques christianisées qui, à l’époque des métallurgistes ayant précédé l’islamisation, auraient pu contribuer au chaînon manquant de la berbérité.
Post-scriptum Pour mieux défendre les gravures rupestres contre les pilleurs, l’Institut national des sciences de l’archéologie et du patrimoine, à Rabat, a créé un parc naturel. De son côté, l’Unesco étudie un projet destiné à développer un tourisme durable au Sahara occidental.
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Again you have your places times and peoples all jumbled up.
And isn't it obvious that African populations are are the basis of particular linqual-ethnies of Africa?
Neither is any one sole ethny "the basis of the populations from the Eastern Africa who originally migrated across the Sahara and eventually entered Mauretania."
So what's your point?
My point is those Zenaga images match the TMHHW images by the characteristics I outlined. None of the other pics you posted of eastern Africans does so nowhere nearly identically as the Zenaga do.
posted
I'm talking about TMHHW. Why do you keep referring to THHNW? Anyway you need to understand the Tehenu were not creamy but similarly complexioned to the AEs.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: ... Whatever the Tehenu looked like, creamy, tan or polka dot, ... the Tehenu, creamy complexioned or otherwise ... As for the facial features, profiles, hair styles and other attributes of the Tehenu,
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Listen. No iMazighen ever destroyed Tichitt-Walata, Wagadu, or Songhai. Get that big fat myth out your mind.
And really you need to sit down and compile a timeline of peoples and their cultures region by region because you've got it all so very mixed up that all you're doing is spreading confusion about the history of the region between Mema and the Atlantic and the Adrar to
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: ... it is not necessarily true that this entrance into Mauretania was responsible for the destruction of Tichitt Walata because it probably occurred in a period long before the introduction of Islam and the eventual destruction of Walatta. It was after the Arabization/Islamization of Berber speaking groups that they began to be against animist African groups. To be clear, the entrance of Berber speakers into Mauretania was long before the introduction of Islam and therefore cannot be equated with the nature of the interactions between these groups AFTER the Islamization of these groups.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I meant precisely what I wrote.
Please take the time to compare and contrast the pictured Zenaga with the Seti I tomb TMHHW for: * Facial profile - straight (orthognous) * Chin - tufted goatee beard * Hair - thick locks * Nose - thin nostrils, well defined bridge * Face - gaunt (narrow) * Body - slim wiry build
There's a vast plethora of phenotypes between and among "Sudanic, Nilotic and Ethiopic Africans." Don't be overly simplistic in lumping so many peoples into a category only a handfull actually fit.
I understand the similarities between the TMHW and the Zenaga, although such features held in common was what was called 'caucasoid' by Western scholars (still is by some). But of course the main difference was skin color. I notice you use the term "cream colored" to denote teh TMHW. I'm going to be real and just call it like it is-- they were depicted as white! Of course NO African population truly and wholly indigenous to the continent is of that color. But since we have modern day white Berber speakers like the Kabyle and Riff, do you not think it possible a connection? Sure modern day Kabyle and Riff don't wear such style of hair or clothes today, but what of a couple of millennia ago??
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian: Dr. Winters,
This article has been copied to several websites and I was going to translate it. But, changed my mind.
Well here's the translated version:
Vikings in the Moroccan South?
Before the Islamization of Morocco, men of Northern Europe would have come, by the sea, in the south of the country to the research of the copper which they needed to forge their weapons. A thesis that the recent discovery of funerary megaliths and cave paintings seems to accredit
It was in July 2001. Fatimatou Malika bent Benata had planted its khaïma, the decorated tent which the nomads of the Sahara affectionnent, with the accesses of the well of Aouinet Azguer. Arrived at narrowest of the valley, where the gazelles leave the trace of their legs in sand, it had started to seek a shelter: the sun knocked extremely and it feared that its young person sons does not take a blow of heat. It had ended up slipping, with the child, under one of these rock tables which cut out cliff like as many sections of cake. Which was not then its surprise to see, painted on the ceiling, of the drawings in a perfect state of conservation. There were naked men, armed with an arc, dancing around an ox - azguer, into Berber, means ox - and all kinds of savage animals: antelopes, ibexes, roe-deers, cat-like, elephants, ostriches. Who was the artist who had realized of so pretty drawings red blood stone in a place also not very favourable with the dwelling and with when all that could it go up well? Fatimatou was perplexed. Its first reflex had been to erase these paintings with water. It had not succeeded in diluting them. It had then smelled confusedly that the scenes which followed one another as it slipped under the rock returned to rites going up to the night of times.
“Where there were engravings, one could be sure that there was a mine”
Of return to the village of Me seied, it hastens to alert the khalifa Babouzaid el-Mghafri, which, in its turn, prevents the caïd, which informs the governor of the province of Tan-Tan. Once the informed authorities of Reduction, the “photographs” that the Fatimatou nomad discovered by chance with the ceiling of his rock shelter start to cause covetousnesses. The khalifa of Me seied, a sympathetic nerve quinquagénaire which became later “discoverer” of prehistoric art, informs a journalist author of several guides specialized on the tracks of Morocco, Jacques Gandini, of the existence of the cave paintings. This last, which is buckling one of its works on this area, decides to assemble a forwarding. It invites to join him a French archaeologist installed since nearly sixty years in Morocco, Robert Letan. In addition to paintings, exceptional for the area - until now, in fact primarily engravings were found in this Western part of the Sahara, contrary to Algerian Tassili or Chadian Tibesti - they will discover, in the higher part of the wadi of Chebeika, forty constructions and megalithic structures in form of crescents of great dimension. The presence of these tumulus “géoglyphes” - rather similar to those inventoried by Theodore Monod in 1948, whom one finds in all Moroccan Sahara and Mauritanian - is another major lucky find. These discoveries start again fears of plunderings. Except prohibiting the access of the sites to the researchers, the national Center of the rupestral inheritance, in Marrakech, which depends on the ministry for the Culture and the Communication, does not have indeed the means of controlling the zone. Jacques Gandini is criticized to have published co-ordinates GPS of paintings of Azguer and Robert Letan to have commented on them in the Aujourd'hui daily newspaper Morocco… They are defended, by interposed press. “The promotion of the area, estimates Jacques Gandini, prevails on archaeological considerations.” It affirms to have received the downstream of the ministry for Tourism and the support of the governors of area to say all it although it thinks of the some 350 prehistoric sites listed of Morocco.
At 82 years, Robert Letan keeps good foot, good eye when it is about crapahuter on archeological sites. The right manhole, the nostril pinch and the cap firmly rivetted on the head as soon as it leaves at his place, this soldier of colonial artillery, ex-serviceman of the Second World war, passed his life to excavate the stony deserts of the Atlas and the Anti-Atlas. “At the time, we had neither the comfort of one 4 X 4 air-conditioned nor the safety of the GPS”, remembers it. For this native of Lorraine, which belongs to a generation of autodidacts forced to leave the benches of the school “to learn how to kill! ”, Africa, and more particularly Morocco, where it arrived in 1944, awoke an inextinguishable thirst: that of a search of the origins that its work in the mines still sharpened. “To know the history of humanity reassures us, opens ways to us, because it relativizes panics to come, shows us that the end of the world is not for tomorrow. Ultimately, the engineer always gains on the merchant!” it insisted, at the time of a conference aiming at explaining to his/her colleagues the rupestral art underestimated too a long time in Africa, whereas it forms part, according to him, of the first steps of the writing. Its goal? To help the Moroccan authorities to develop “intelligent” tourism, which makes it possible to preserve the archeological sites while authorizing the populations to benefit from the repercussions from discovered of which they are often despoiled or the last with being informed. “Without my writings, never one would not have allotted the lucky find of paintings of Tan-Tan to a nomad!” he says proudly. Even if it is the first to denounce the vandalism which endangers these treasures of the humanity and which obliged, for example, discoverers of the cave of Lascaut to create an artificial cave to satisfy the public: to touch paintings with its fingers; to try to reinforce their color by wetting them; to mark their circumference with a felt-tip pen or even with paper; without speaking about the flights, in particular in the tombs. “As many heresies which make me quiver when one knows how much the Sahara and particularly Morocco were explored little until now!” be indignant it.
To preserve the archeological sites
To entreat a tormented personal history whose this former Communist who took part in the trade-union combat of 1936 “is released” in his the first two novels (the Pied-noir one and Sofia, the unsubdued one, published on account of author and on sale in Casablanca), while carrying out face of long-term historical research on his country of adoption, “Mr Robert” devoted a whole work to the protohistoire Moroccan South. Currently in the course of republication in order to include the discoveries of Tan-Tan there, it reiterates the thesis of a Scandinavian influence on the metallurgy of copper in the mountains of the Anti-Atlas at the age of bronze. Because, in addition to being a writer, historian and archaeologist, Robert Letan is a also metallurgist. Its principal discovery, it owes it with an assignment with Irhem, in the mounts of the Anti-Atlas, which abounds in copper mines in which it put at the day a great profusion of cave paintings. “So much so that, where there were engravings, one could be sure that there was a mine.” For him, the trade of copper occurred before and during the age of bronze. The “red men come from the heart of the sea”, whose the old Hebrew manuscripts speak about high Draa, were probably ancestors of the Vikings, the daN' S, which came to seek until in the Moroccan South the raw material which they needed to forge their weapons. The use of copper developed towards 3000 before Jesus-Christ around the Mediterranean basin, thus contributing to the idea that an extension of civilization was carried out from the Middle East towards the west. But, with the exhaustion of the layers, the Scandinavian people came to supply themselves always more in the south, initially on the site of Almeria, in Spain, before going up the Draa river (between 500 before Jesus-Christ and 500 afterwards), until Zagora, where the copper ingots and amber converged. “The incursion of the Vikings into the valley of Draa was done only after their conversion with Christianity, probably at the same time as their raids to the south of Spain and the north of Morocco. What also makes it possible to date this mysterious Seita, Christian queen, about which speak the Hebrew manuscripts, which could be the ancestor of the Tuaregs.”
Mysterious people with the eyes of the Arab conquerors and the Western explorers, the Tuaregs draw their origins in Saharan Berber civilization. The myth of Amamellen, originator of a clean writing, ancestor of the tifinagh, returns to a wedge-shaped writing not without similarity with that which is exposed to the national Museum, to Copenhagen. As for the myth founder of the women, he says that the queen Ti-N-Hinan (“That of the tents”) and its Takama maidservant, come from Tafilalet (Morocco) on their méhari white, would have found on their arrival in Ahaggar primitive people, Isebaten, with which they would have had girls. Thus, the noble tribes of Hoggar would go down from the three Ti-N-Hinan girls, whereas those of Takama would be the mothers of the vassal tribes. According to this legend, Ti-N-Hinan would have been buried in Ve century, well before the arrival of Islam in the Sahara. It, the Tuaregs would have inherited their language in addition to one company matriarcale organized according to a tribal mode. The research of the berberity, Lahoucine Faouzi, 32 years, made the key of its success of it. For this explorer originating in Agadir, large in love with the desert and wandering life, the jackpot arrived with the diffusion in 2001 on television Moroccan, for the first time in language amazigh, of a feature film that its house of production, Faouzi Vision, produced and realized. “When I proposed a series of 24 documentary within the framework of a new emission devoted to the voyage, Amouddou, the RTM (Moroccan Radio-television) signed immediately”, tells it. The first episode, Memory of Tagmoute, which tells the history of a prehistoric village, true alive legend because of the presence of rupestral stones, old attics and the tomb of the Daniel prophet, received the price of the best realizer to the Festival of Cairo in July 2002. Large amateur of speleology, Lahoucine Faouzi founded in 1996 with some friends an association gathering about thirty members, which enabled him to explore a great number of caves. “It was normal that we are interested in the cave paintings”, explains Aziz Iguiss, president of association and civil servant to the ministry for Finances. Impassioned prehistory, it pushed so that an emission of Amouddou is devoted to paintings of Azguer, that it regards as a “single inheritance for Moroccan archaeology”. With the complicity of Robert Letan, Faouzi Vision assembled a new forwarding to Tan-Tan, in November 2003. “The initiative of these young people is the welcome because it will cause vocations. One misses volunteers in Morocco to undertake excavations”, comments on the interested party.
Close links between the berberity and the négritude
Forwarding got under way with the blessing of the khalifa of Me seied, very proud to show an inscription in tifinagh evoking recent times when the elephants still lived in Tazzout Ouarkziz. Once on the spot, it slipped under the shelters in full desert, crawling of best than it could it. The diffusion of the light, the exiguity of the passage, the rarefaction of the air, all that formed like a magic halation around the fragile thousand-year-old pictograms. Robert Letan seemed to have found the dexterity of his 20 years. He was inexhaustible. Under the charm, one crossed the centuries briskly. One was astonished by the forms stéatopyges - the development of a lubricating mass in the area of the sacrum and the buttocks - characters represented, the majority naked, with a case pénien, dancing around animals. Was it about Bochimans coming from southernmost Africa, even of Hottentots or Bantous? The existence of not easily passable natural barriers made this assumption not very probable. Even if the dancers of Azguer like confirm that, those which one discovered the traces in Neolithic layers of the Tunisian South, Algerian or Moroccan, pastors négroïdes could have been established in the valley of Draa, remained very fertile after the draining occurred in thousand-year-old IIIe before Jesus-Christ.
More important for Robert Letan, the presence of painted tanks, which, contrary to those which were found in the central Sahara, are not harnessed. This type of tank “with human traction” reinforces according to him the assumption according to which paintings of Azguer would be more recent than it does not appear to with it - “a date close to European final bronze”. If these tanks are primarily intended for the transport of copper, as it affirms it, it is then possible to think that these populations (black) were in liaison with manufacturers of megaliths of surface (Vikings) come from the north of Europe. In its work devoted to the First Berber ones. Between the Mediterranean, Tassili and the Nile, Algerian Malika Hachid, director of the National park of Tassili of Ajjer, affirm that there are “links much closer than one would have thought it between the berberity and the négritude”. According to it, the Libyans and the Ethiopian ones of yesterday would be the Tuaregs and Izzegaren-Harratine of today. Paintings of Azguer come to add with the human mosaic complexes of the Sahara the Yemeni Jews and the christianized Scandinavian populations which, at the time of the metallurgists having preceded Islamization, could have contributed to the missing link of the berberity.
Postscript For better defending rupestral engravings against the plunderers, the national Institute of sciences of archaeology and the inheritance, in Rabat, created a natural reserve. On its side, UNESCO studies a project intended to develop durable tourism in the Western Sahara.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: since we have modern day white Berber speakers like the Kabyle and Riff, do you not think it possible a connection?
And why are you proliferating the inaccurate outmoded caucasoid concept? Do we have to dig up Manansala's Anthropology Primer again for those who still cling onto the fallacy?
Let the record hereby show that YOU, not I, call these features caucasoid even though the two populations I'm comparing are both African not from the Caucasus or anywhere near there, Acacus notwithstanding.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: * Facial profile - straight (orthognous) * Chin - tufted goatee beard * Hair - thick locks * Nose - thin nostrils, well defined bridge * Face - gaunt (narrow) * Body - slim wiry build
... such features held in common was what was called 'caucasoid' ...
A population is indigenous or not indigenous. There's no sliding scale of degrees 0% to 100%. Herodotus, a full 700 years after the creamy coloured TMHHW of the Seti I tomb painting, recognized two indigenous Libyan (African) populations; Libyan (Mediterranean littoral Africans) and Aithiopian (inner Africans). By then the Libyans had totally absorbed all the Sea Peoples or Trojan War refugees who settled west of ancient Egypt. He even noted such descent among certain Libyan ethnies yet he doesn't qualify them as partially indigenous and neither do I.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ... they were depicted as white! Of course NO African population truly and wholly indigenous to the continent is of that color.
It's not so much the style as the inherent quality.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ... Kabyle and Riff don't wear such style of hair ...
Sorry, I won't indulge this kind of "what if" speculation because it isn't based on anything.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: but what of a couple of millennia ago??
-------------------------------------- truth is prism refracted fact i'm just another point of view --------------------------------------
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Again you have your places times and peoples all jumbled up.
And isn't it obvious that African populations are are the basis of particular linqual-ethnies of Africa?
Neither is any one sole ethny "the basis of the populations from the Eastern Africa who originally migrated across the Sahara and eventually entered Mauretania."
So what's your point?
My point is those Zenaga images match the TMHHW images by the characteristics I outlined. None of the other pics you posted of eastern Africans does so nowhere nearly identically as the Zenaga do.
What I am saying is that the tehemu are PART of an African cultural pattern, but NOT the start of it. To understand the origins, spread and distributions of the specific patterns you mentioned in terms of hairstyle,dress and other characteristics, one must go to a time prior to the beginnings of the Temehu. The point being that by the time of the tamehu in all their colors, there was already a pattern of culture and existence that had long been established in Africa. Therefore, just because we have pictures of the Tamehu in Egyptian art, does not mean that this signals the beginnings of the cultural traits and practices that we see in those images, in terms of dress, hairstyle or other cultural characteristics. Yes, the Tamehu are part of this tradition, but when you get to Mauretania and the basis of such traditions there, you would be missing the point to immediately jump at the Tamehu to explain such common traits, as opposed to an older African complex from which BOTH groups are derived. That is what I am getting at. The tamehu were the northermost expression of this cultural tradition, but the populations that entered Mauretania more likely came from the Sahara and Eastern Africa than the extreme north of the continent.
And Al Takruri, I think you are absolutely on point in noticing the similarities between the Mauretanian Zenaga and the Tamehu from Egyptian portraits.
And in all honesty I think you are talking about the ancient stone age family of the lush Sahara, which was responsible for the development of many cultures and civilizations across Africa.
Posts: 8897 | Registered: May 2005
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Why not? The Kabyle and Riff are 'white' peoples of North Africa who speak and/or practice African culture. The Tmhw appear to be the same way.
quote:And why are you proliferating the inaccurate outmoded caucasoid concept? Do we have to dig up Manansala's Anthropology Primer again for those who still cling onto the fallacy?
What makes you think I am somehow "promoting" that absurd Eurocentric racial (racist) concept?? Notice that I put quotations around the term. And for that reason, NO we don't have to bring up any anthropological assessment on the term or about the diversity of human cranio-facial features, let alone those displayed among indigenous Africans!
Why bring up Manansala as a recommendation to me? Because I share an common ethnic background as a Filipino?? I would prefer to go straight to the source that is Keita even though he is a black African.
quote:Let the record hereby show that YOU, not I, call these features caucasoid even though the two populations I'm comparing are both African not from the Caucasus or anywhere near there, Acacus notwithstanding.
And let the record, or more precisely MY record on this forum show that I have never ascribed to the Eurocentric racist notion of K-zoid! And may I again point out the very record of my post, which clearly has the word in quotes and which also states (Djehuti states): "was called 'caucasoid' by Western scholars (still is by some)..." which I noticed you conveniently left out in your strange accusation of me!
quote:A population is indigenous or not indigenous. There's no sliding scale of degrees 0% to 100%. Herodotus, a full 700 years after the creamy coloured TMHHW of the Seti I tomb painting, recognized two indigenous Libyan (African) populations; Libyan (Mediterranean littoral Africans) and Aithiopian (inner Africans). By then the Libyans had totally absorbed all the Sea Peoples or Trojan War refugees who settled west of ancient Egypt. He even noted such descent among certain Libyan ethnies yet he doesn't qualify them as partially indigenous and neither do I.
Of course, what I meant was aboriginal. That a white population aboriginal to the African continent exists, or ever had. This fact not including any foreign entry or admixture.
quote:It's not so much the style as the inherent quality.
Well a couple of thousand years can make a big difference in the quality of a people's appearance.
quote:Sorry, I won't indulge this kind of "what if" speculation because it isn't based on anything.
It's based on simple observation, as all conjectures or hypotheses are. That is all that I am making.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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There was no need to mention that the set of features I listed were caucasoid. By unwarrantedly bringing up the word you keep it in memory and in that sense you promote it.
This is a lesson in dialectic. That's all. Not painting you to be retentive.
Why Manansala? Because he wrote PMK's Anthropology Primer (or whatever it's called) wherein he gives the perfect foil debunking the caucasoid myth.
I could care less that you're Filipino as far as this forum goes. However I don't believe a non African like Paul should be 'lord' over an African list.
And I meant the quality of the hair. The Zenaga, from as much as I can tell from the photo, seem to have the exact same hair quality as Seti I TMHHW. Varying and at once wavy thick and nappy.
Sorry to git you barkin' but you know you my dawg. Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Whoa. Hold it right there. Don't put words in my mouth.
Did I do something I'm unaware of?
Where did I explain one by way of the other? What did I actually write about the two groups?
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: but when you get to Mauretania and the basis of such traditions there, you would be missing the point to immediately jump at the Tamehu to explain such common traits,
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: ... the populations that entered Mauretania more likely came from the Sahara and Eastern Africa than the extreme north of the continent.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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These Mauretanians at Tichitt and other settlements are believed to have been Mande speakers, not Berber speakers.
. Could you give me a quote for this with a reference? Augustin Holl . 1985. "Subsistence Patterns of the Dhar Tichitt Neolithic, Mauritania," [italics] The African Archaeological Review[/italics] 3:151-162 and --- 2002. "Time, Space, and Image Making:Rock Art from the Dhar Tichitt (Mauritania)," [italics]The African Archaeological Review[/italics] 19(2): 75-118. does not name any group as the settlers of Dhar Tichitt. He says that the Berbers came after these settlements were abandoned. Thanks
You can go and read some of the research of P.J. Munson, one of the original excavators at Tichitt. Munson (1980) based his conclusion that the Soninke founded Tichitt on the dwellings, storehouses and pottery he excavated at Tichitt which resembled Diawara or Soninke material (see: pp.462-463).
Archaeology and the Prehistoric Origins of the Ghana Empire, by Patrick J. Munson The Journal of African History, Vol. 21, No. 4 (1980), pp. 457-466
You can obtain the article at JSTOR.
. .
Thanks for the reference. I did get it from JSTOR and read it. I e-mailed Augustin Holl to see if Munson was still accepted since Holl did not cite him. I got a reply today. he is in the field and apologized for not being able to provide a fuller answer but he wrote that: "I wish I could give you a simple and straighforward answer to your query but there is none; P. Munson assessment is based on the 'accepted" wisdom that make the Dhar Tichitt the craddle of the Soninke but there are really no serious evidence to back that suggestion." and "The claim of proto-Soninke homeland is not too farfetched but the reasoning is literally circular. I am very very sorry for the shallowness of what I can say about that important question but it is better to be cautious in this case."
Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
I don't remember where exactly were posted pictures of Tehenu before, but here is another from Malika Hachid's book "Les Premiers Berbères" (2000):
I remember someone pointing out the resemblance of the symbol on the tHnw headdress with the Egyptian uraeus. Well, it seems that it was worn by tHnw noblewomen as well, but not by children.
Hachid claims the same crossed symbol found among modern Berbers (mostly among warriors) as a symbol of manhood and Ancient "Libyans" is a continuation of it, also pointing out that it was also worn until recently by some Tuareg & "Moroccan" women.
Posts: 181 | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
^ Can you give us a close up of those Tehenu?
And why is it that all the images you give us as well as other tomb scenes are all outlined illustrations? Where are the actual tomb paintings??
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
^ Thanks Cotonou, but from what tomb is that scene from? And are there any actual photos of that tomb or other tombs depicting Tehenu? In all my years spent in this forum I still haven't seen any actual color renditions or even actual photos of tomb paintings depicting Tehenu. Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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According to Sallust, who supports himself upon the authority of Heimpsal, the Carthaginian historian, “North Africa was first occupied by Libyans and Getulians, who were a barbarous people, a heterogeneous mass, or agglomeration of people of different races, without any form of religion or government, nourishing themselves on herbs, or devouring the raw flesh of animals killed in the chase; for first amongst these were found Blacks, probably some from the interior of Africa, and belonging to the great negro family; then whites, issue of the Semitic stock, who apparently constituted, even at that early period, the dominant race or caste. Later, but at an epoch absolutely unknown, a new horde of Asiatics,” says Sallust, “of Medes, Persians, and Armenians, invaded the countries of the Atlas, and, led on by Hercules, pushed their conquests as far as Spain.” 48
Do you know where in Sallust this quote is from? I doubt that he used such terminology as "Negro" or "Semite," and that these terms have probably been added by biased modern translators.
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Djehuti: The repros are from Sahure's tomb.
Never came across any painted pics of Tehenu, but here a actual pic of a Tehenu depiction:
Also, does anyone know how widespread is the use of crossed bandouliers in Africa? I'm still a bit skeptical about Hachid's claims of continuity between Tehenu and Tuareg regarding such similarities.
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^ Is there any continuity at all between any Berber group and the Tehenu??
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Mystery Solver: Huh...Actually Sall 1999 cites this picture as depicting "Tekhenou (Egyptian Western neighbours)" after Zyghlarz 1958 but I'm wondering if this wasn't depicting the Tekenu character which was ritually sacrificed by AE. Anyway the quality of the picture in that book wasn't good at all.
I remember a pic from Sahure's tomb from Bates 1914, but it was not in color.
Does anyone actually have seen exact references of colored pics of Tehenu or scholarly descriptions of Tehenu being depicted in colors?
Thanks in advance.
Djehuti: One of the most striking similarity Hachid claim as a proof of cultural continuity between Berbers and THnw is the crossed bandouliers war symbol mostly worn by Tuareg. What do you think about it?
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quote:Originally posted by COTONOU_BY_NIGHT: Mystery Solver: Huh...Actually Sall 1999 cites this picture as depicting "Tekhenou (Egyptian Western neighbours)" after Zyghlarz 1958 but I'm wondering if this wasn't depicting the Tekenu character which was ritually sacrificed by AE. Anyway the quality of the picture in that book wasn't good at all.
You mean the Tehenu were sarcrificed by Egyptians?! Could you please explain?
quote:I remember a pic from Sahure's tomb from Bates 1914, but it was not in color.
Does anyone actually have seen exact references of colored pics of Tehenu or scholarly descriptions of Tehenu being depicted in colors?
Thanks in advance.
My questions and sentiments exactly!! I have been asking for colored pictures of Tehenu for a long time now!
quote:Djehuti: One of the most striking similarity Hachid claim as a proof of cultural continuity between Berbers and THnw is the crossed bandouliers war symbol mostly worn by Tuareg. What do you think about it?
Do be honest I don't know. It could be evidence of shared if not direct ancestry from Tehenu. I just don't know much about Berber culture to make any conclusions.
Here are pictutres of a Mauritanian man (I assume to be Berber) that Doug found which bears a striking reslemblance not only to Tehenu but even 'white' Tamahou in hairstyle.
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^ I don't know. The It's only pure speculation that the reference is to 'Tuareg' or proto-tuareg people.
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"WoW" that's uncanny looks like a scene out of the nile valley,The quilt/patchwork Fon battle scene.
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^ The crossbandaliers worn by the Tehenu remind me of descriptions by early Greeks of the Gorgon Amazons of Libya who were said to be the first Amazons. They were described as black women who wore short leather skirts and bands of large snake skin that criss-crossed their breasts.
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^I don't see a glyph for "P" in the script in question. From what I can see, it reads something along the lines of WsA(a)wn(n)i.n(wt)+tfs [the "( )" bracket enclosures here denote signs which were seemingly put in place as complementary phonograms to assist in determining the phonological nature or pronounciation of the "fore-word" or else determinative].
Btw, "nwt" is a determinative represented by the circle-looking sign, which would have otherwise faded beyond immediate recognition, had it not been for the supporting roles of the glyphs that follow it. The hieroglyphic signs for "wt" seem to be filling in the role of providing the reader with a clue about the phonological character of that circle-looking determinative that it succeeds.
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The following notes, prepared by www.temehu.com, may serve as a short introduction to the Libyan Berber Temehu tribes. For further information about the ancient Libyan Temehu (Temeh'w) and Tehenu people the reader can refer to the rare work of Oric Bates (The Eastern Libyans, London, 1914). The Ancient Egyptians called the land and the people west of the Nile Valley the Tehenu, whom appear to have been a numerous group, as attested by Egyptian references, such as "the countries of the Tehenu" and "the chiefs of the Tehenu". But since the Temehu were also referred to as "the Westerners", those who inhabited the area immediately west of the Nile, it becomes difficult to separate between the two Berber groups. Hence, according to Oric Bates, the ancient Egyptians often did not always discriminate between the Temehu (Tmh') and the Tehenu (Th'n).
Those writers who claimed that the Temehu tribes were comprised of two groups: the Tehenu in the north and the Nehesu in the south, were often confused and definitely misinformed, since according to the Egyptians themselves the Nehesu are a distinctive group, and in all probability what they meant to say was that the Libyans comprised two groups: the Tehenu in the north and the Temehu tribes in the south, and thus the Tehenu were rightly identified with Lower Egypt, and the Temehu with Middle-Nubia. This makes sound sense when one refers to the ancient Egyptian's classification of humankind:
The Egyptians divided the human race into four classes, namely the Egyptians, the A’mu (Semites), the Neh’esu (Nubians) and the Temeh’u (Temehu) in the country Tmh’ (Libyans). The Neh'esu refers to all Africans bordering Egypt from the south, like the Ethiopians; the Temehu covers all Africans bordering Egypt from the west; and the A'mu are obviously the Semites bordering Egypt from the east (of the Middle East), like the Akkadians and the Phoenicians, whom originally were also Saharan groups, split from the Afro-Asiatic family around the 5th millennium BC. Of course, modern genetic, anthropological and linguistic evidence conclusively relates both the Egyptians and the Libyans (and all the ancient Mediterranean peoples) to the Sahara and therefore this kind of genealogy is politically motivated and serves no purpose to our present enquiry, except in that it clearly shows the Nehesu as a separate group from the Temehu, and that the Temehu designates the whole of the Libyan peoples west of the Nile - that is all the Berbers or Imazighen including the Tehenu, the Ribu, the Nasamons, the Garamantes, etc, all of whom the Egyptians were aware of as Berber groups and collectively mentioned as Temehu. This is also apparent from the extent of the Temehu's territories, which, according to Bates, appears to have been comprised of various communities and tribes, occupying much of the Sudan and possibly all the way to Fezzan; and hence several scholars, starting from Oric Bates, have openly discussed the possibility of the Temehu being the distant ancestors of the present day Tuareg tribes of the great Sahara Desert (The Speakers of Tamaheqt), which now became Temezeght via *Temehaght > Temejeght > Temesheght > Temezeght > Tamazight (the language of the entire Berber population of North Africa currently spanning across 10 countries, from the Red Sea to the Atlantic Ocean and from the Mediterranean Sea to Lake Chad).
Few years after the publication of Bates' unique book, The Times (20 March 1928) published a study drawing similarities between the Temehu and the images of prehistoric drawings found in the Air Mountain in the southern Sahara desert. This begs a simple question no one dared to ask, let alone answer: if the Temehu were recent sea-people invaders of Egypt (or of Libya, as it was known then), then how come the ancient Egyptians considered them the natives of both Egypt and Libya and why did they include them in their genealogy of humankind long before the arrival of the sea-people?
Surely the Egyptians knew enough about their neighbours not to confuse natives with foreign pirates as to include the latter in their classification of the human race! Like I have said, the Egyptian classification of the human race, and in that respect its later Biblical copy, serves no scientific purpose other than show the Temehu as a massive group inhabiting the whole of Libya (that is the whole of Africa west of Egypt), and thus this by itself is more than enough to put all other theories concerning the Temehu tribes out of their miseries. In speaking of the Biblical genealogy, the Biblical HAM (the African divinely-cursed son of Noah - see Genesis for more on this), appears to be no more than a metatheses of the older TMH. The point I am trying to illustrate here is that both the Egyptians and their later students must have based their written traditions on earlier and much older oral lore and as such the original classification myth must have been much older than the written version of the later pharaohs. This also means that " Internet chat experts " , who confuse the recent sea-people with the Libyan Tehenu and Temehu and subsequently made the Temehu a foreign blond group, are not only inaccurate crackpots but also committing a grave mistake, simply because we have plenty of evidence, most of which is prehistoric, to the fact that these Berber groups were natives to the area since pre-dynastic times. And to ignore this monumental evidence, or, like others had pointed out, to make it intentionally obscure, serves no purpose other than illustrate Amen-like motives!
The land of the Temehu tribe in ancient Libya extends all the way to the Nile. According to Herodotus Libya began west of the Nile.
The Delta was called Tameh'et, one interpretation of which is 'the lotus land', just as pictured by its hieroglyph of three lotus flowers rising from a circle (the sign for 'city'). In connection with Meh', a mention must be made of the Seven Wise Ones of the goddess Meh'-urt , who came from water at the feet of Nu or Nun, and who, in very early times, resided over the “weighing of words” in the Hall of Meh'-urt and thus rightly identified with Libyan Maat and Neith. This simple fact was known to many scholars and Egyptologists, like Sir Alan Gardiner who has noted that the name of the Libyan tribe Temeh'w means “Lower Egypt” as well as the “Delta”, whence mh's “the crown of Lower Egypt”. The ancient Egyptian Timhy (Tymhy) Stone of Wawat, found in one of the Egyptian lists of royal gifts, may indicate that the stones were of a particular type purveyed to the Egyptian by the Temehu. G. W. Murray (The Road to Chephren's Quarries) relates that the Temehu Libyans were employed in the labour gangs at the quarries; while other sources affirmed that the Temehu were famous for being skilled stone workers and that the monuments built of polygonal masonry in Cyrenaica were the work of the Temehu people whom often referred to as “the Westerners” ('those who dwell west of the Nile'). The name was also mentioned as Henet-Temehu , the princess daughter of Thenet-Hep , the wife of Ahmose I, which further illustrates the Libyan element in the Egyptian dynasties.
The Libyan struggle to free the taken land of Neith is pre-dynastic in nature, and their recent pact with the maritime bandits, who came to plunder Egypt as others had done before and after, was no more than another tactic in their long war against the armies of the conquering pharaohs. There was never such a thing as Libyan Invasion (or invasions); they only appear so if they were mentioned in isolation, by the enemy, of course. To be fairer to the truth, from the extant preserved material one can safely ascertain the pharaohs to have been the invaders of the region, who, as told by their own history, forcibly unified Libyan Lower Egypt and Nubian Upper Egypt into what is known as Egypt: the House of Libyan Ptah. This was the subject of several studies including the one presented at The Symposium On "Libya Antiqua" , held in Paris between the 16th and the 18th of January 1984, and titled: "The Tehenu In The Egyptian Records" . The paper, written by A.H.S. El-Mosallamy and prepared at the request of the Unesco, told us nothing we do not already know, but nonetheless it was a recent summary of the basic facts put forward in the last century by Petrie, Breasted, Bates, Galassi, Maspero, Borchardt and many others whom history had practically forgotten, and was largely drawn from the ancient records preserved by Eratosthenes, Manetho, Plutarch, Plato, Herodotus, Diodorus and the ancient Egyptian records, as those of the pyramid papyri of Berber Unas (or Unis: the god who swallowed all the gods).
The pre-dynastic existence of the Temehu and the Tehenu is ascertained from several facts, the most important of which is the Palermo Stone, the oldest document in the world, which preserves a long list of pre-Dynastic Libyan kings & queens of Lower Egypt before its invasion by the pharaohs. The Delta city of Sais was the centre of the worship of the Libyan Goddess Neith and most scholars generally agree that the inhabitants of Sais were mostly of Libyan Berber origin. Other Libyan Delta cults included those of the Libyan Cat-Goddess Bast at Bubastis, and Osiris & Isis at Buziris, who went on to dominate the Egyptian and Roman pantheons, and even survive to the present day in Europe as the secret cults of Isis & Osiris. It is therefore generally concluded that the Berber Tehenu tribes were the natives of the Egyptian Delta long before the menace of Menes, who forcibly unified Egypt and invaded the Tehenu territories in the north and the Temehu's and Nubian's in the south about 3100 BC (or 3400 BC according to other sources).
Then we have the Egyptian pre-dynastic records such as the inscriptions found in Neith's temples, showing the usual Libyan signs and Neith's tattoos as well as the names of queens and princesses, which usually contained the element Net or Nit; Narmer's ivory cylinder commemorating his so called victory over the Libyans; the pre-dynastic Kerki knife bearing similar representations of pre-dynastic Libyans as those of the later Egyptians; and, of course, the name " Tehenu " itself, found on King Scorpion's statue (ca. 3300 BC), from which respected Egyptologists convincingly deduced that the struggle between the ancient Libyans and the Egyptians goes back to pre-dynastic times, as pointed out by both Breasted (1906) and Bates (1914), and also to the beginning of the Northern Kingdom of the Delta when the invading pharaohs were forcibly trying to unify the two kingdoms: the northern Libyan Lower Egypt and the southern Nubian Upper Egypt. This means that if the wars of the Tehenu-Temehu and the Egyptians were pre-dynastic, then the existence of the Tehenu and the Temehu people in Egypt surely goes even farther back in time.
This conclusion is also supported, in addition to the above Egyptian genealogy which classifies all Libyans as Temehu or Temehw (e.g., modern Temaheq or Tuareg), by the fact that several scholars generally agree that the Egyptians always referred to the Tehenu and the Temehu with titles indicating their nativity to the region and not as foreigners; and by the fact that the Egyptians were indeed very careful not adopt any foreign gods and as such their adoption of the Libyan Neith, Amon, Bast, Sekhmet, Set and many others is a strong indicator that they did not consider the Libyans as " foreigners " . The established Libyan royal line of kings and queens in the Delta during and after the invasions of Menes, and the disputed royal lines of the Palermo Stone, are also a good example of this. Of course, there is one thing almost everyone fails to mention, and that is there is hardly any serious studies exploring Libyan history and as such Libyan history remains to be written. If the amount of work and volumes produced in relation to Egypt or Greece were also produced in relation to Libya, a totally new world would emerge from the bottom of the Libyan desert.
Hence Neith's Temple in the Delta (at Sais) bore the name of "House of the king of Lower Egypt", and the Egyptian "uraeus" serpent was deduced, from a scene of four Libyans in Sahure's temple at Abusir, to have been descended from an early Libyan king of the Delta. In addition to the Delta, the Tehenu of Lower Egypt were also the inhabitant of the Fayyum and the other oases of the region. In fact, these Berber oases were not invaded by the pharoahs until the time of the New Empire, and were not totally colonised by the pharaohs until the time of Ramses III, aginst whom the Libyans became known for their attacks on Egypt. Breasted asserts that these oases dwellers, from which the Egyptians of Hatshepsut extracted much tribute, were none other than the Libyan Tehenu of the Delta. The Temehu's territories, however, began immediately south of the Tehenu's and extended all the way down to Middle Nubia - an area where Oric Bates, during his short life, conducted an extensive study of its cemeteries and came to conclude that the Nubians and the Libyans were more related than previously thought, and thus the Temehu Berbers were also known to archaeologists as " the C-Group of Nubia " . Even today, the Arabs of modern Egypt call the Nubians " Barabera " .
From the first dynasty onwards the Libyans continued their attempts to reclaim Lower Egypt. During the start of the dynastic period the name Tehenu was found inscribed on the Narmar (or Narmer) Plate and also reappeared during the second and the third dynasties (2778- 2723 BC), when, according to Manetho, the Libyans continued the struggle against the invading pharaohs and particularly against the pharaoh Nefer-Ka-Re. Then during the fourth dynasty the pharaoh Snefru reportedly took 11,000 Libyans as prisoners of war. All these facts are not a figment of the imagination but an important part of human's early history, which has been largely ignored and even suppressed. In fact the wars were so rife during this early period that they were brought to a temporary lull during the Old Kingdom by king Khufu (Greek Cheops), the second king of the 4th Dynasty (ca. 2613-2494 BC) and the builder of the great pyramid of Giza. Apparently king Khufu married a Libyan princess in order to bring peace to the region so that he could concentrate on his monumental work.
"Bringing peace to the region", "during the building of the great pyramid of Giza", "so that he can concentrate on his work" is not a sign of 'menace', but a powerful indicator of the long conflict between the Libyans and Egyptians right from the start, and long before the recent Shishenq and Tefnakht returned to continue the work of the ancestors!
Khufu's attempts, however, were not fully successful, as we are told that both the kings Sahu-Ra and Ni-User-Ra (of the fifth dynasty) continued to brag about defeating the Libyan armies and about the bounty they brought as offerings to their divine fathers. This means that the wars were almost continuous from pre-dynastic times right down to the Middle Kingdom (ca. 2200-1700 BC), during which the Egyptian pharaohs managed to regain the upper hand and extracted tribute from the Libyans; and as a result a large number of Berbers served in the army of the pharaohs, and some even rose to high positions in the palace; probably, eventually leading the Libyans to regain control over Egypt about (ca. 945 BC), when the Libyan Berber king Shishenq succeeded in establishing the 22nd Dynasty and thereby starting what narrow-minded Egyptologists know as "The Libyan Period" . The ancient Temehu tribes were among the allied tribes of the powerful Berber Meshwash (Meshwesh), the subjects of Shishenq, who ransacked Jerusalem during his reign as king of Egypt. The fact that the allied tribes included several Berber groups, like the Ribu and the Tehenu of eastern Libya, illustrates a common cause to liberate rather than invade one's land. A few dynasties later, Berber Tefnakht , the chieftain of Neith's Sais and the king and founder of the 24th dynasty (722 - 715 BC), attempted to gain control over the whole of Egypt; but after acquiring Memphis and proceeding southward to Heracleopolis, he was met by the Cushite Piankhi and eventually lost in 713–712 BC to Shabaka, the founder of the Nubian 25th dynasty.
And then, there is another interesting point rarely mentioned but by a few respected scholars: the pharaohs were in the habit of chiseling out most of the references they did not wish to survive and thus censorship is not that new. They were also in the habit of inscribing only their victories and rarely had the courage to catalogue their defeats and therefore all the references to the Libyans were closely tied to the word: "defeat". Expectedly, there was no mention of Libyan victory (or victories). For instance we have evidence showing the blunt removal of the name of the Libyan God Amen from several stone engravings after the Akhnaten revolution, during which Amen was replaced by Aten. To refer to this rich period of Berber history as "the Libyan invasion" does not necessarily represent the truth, and it is strongly advised that students of Libya should always refrain from depending on established sources alone. [A good example of this is the Palermo Stone saga!]
As one is often forced by historians to talk of 'colour' and 'race' when the whole of humankind is found to be of one type, genetically sharing 99.8% of its DNA material with chimpanzees and 58% with bananas, one can only say that (some of) the Temehu people were said to be 'fair skinned' and 'blue eyed'. They wore single hair locks on each side of the head and pointed beards, and had a headdress of two ostrich plumes as those of the Libyan Goddess Ament . One feather symbolises 'chieftain status', while two feathers are generally worn by everyone else. The Temehu, like the Tehenu, adored the Goddess Neith in tattoos. The Temehu name, as mentioned above, can also serve as a generic name describing several African groups and tribes and according to some sources is even tantamount to 'Tamazight' as in the form Tamaheqt (the Berber Tuareg word for Tamazight); making the various theories put forward attributing their origin to northern Europe and Asia look like those " Aryan " theories relating the ancient Egyptians to Sumeria or Mars! The long robe, fastened at the shoulders with golden clasps, and bordered with coloured lines, was a mark of dignity and rank, and therefore was more common than the kilt (skirt, kirtle). Over this garment the Temehu occasionally wore a cloak, under which they wore either a tunic, girded at the waist and stretched almost to the knee, or nothing except a belt. The cut of these robes, which sometimes were fringed, was derived from the skin-cloaks worn in classical times. They were regularly open from top to bottom, and sometimes ornamented with coloured designs and decorated with pieces sewn in the corners or at the waist. In late times, the tunic became more popular among the more civilized Libyans.
One of the most important temples illustrating the description of the Tehenu people is the temple of the King Sahu-Ra (of the fifth dynasty). The Tehenu were portrayed as tall people, dark skinned (or bronze-skinned), with long black hair, short pointed beards, slender faces and thick lips; features which closely relates them to their relatives from East Africa, such as the Ethiopians, whose languages both were of the same group and both were of East African origin: the Hamito-Semitic family which is now known as Afro-Asiatic. Unlike the Temehu and other Libyan groups, the Tehenu wore no feathers on their hair. Their dress consisted mainly of two leather strips worn across the chest and held with a belt along the waist, which terminated in a penistache. They also wore animal tails as a sign of royalty. In historic times, only Berber children wore side-locks; with grown-up men, it indicated either royalty, or the exercise of high priestly functions, rightly identified with the rites of the Libyan Goddess Neith. The long, lock-like beard, is very similar to the beard of Osiris, which the pharaohs also adopted as a sign of royalty. The Libyan pointed-beard and the side-lock may shed more light on the origin of the present-day Jewish side-lock, which they could have picked up in Egypt among Other things!
Brief History of The Temehu Tribes of Ancient Libya is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Non-Commercial-No Derivative Works 2.0 UK: England & Wales License . (Note: please do not remove this licence if you intend to redistribute this article. Doing so violates the terms of this agreement.)
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