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Author Topic: West Africa? Origins for Basel African?
BlessedbyHorus
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I've been wanting to make this thread for a while now. Its basically a spin off from this thread and this thread.

I created this thread because I want to discuss one specific part from that Schlebusch study.

This may sound like a long stretch/reach but is it becoming more realistic that Basel Africa arose in the Western part of Africa? From that Schlebusch study these parts stuck out the most to me.
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quote:
We tried to add Yoruba as a simple split off from any internal node of the model or by adding internal nodes from which Yoruba would split off, but none of these models were consistent with the data with |Z|<3. Furthermore, models assuming Yoruba as a two-way admixture between any of the internal nodes failed. A model which did fit the data is where Yoruba are modeled as a two-way admixture of two additional nodes: one Basal African node above the split between ancient East Africans and ancient southern Africans and a second group, which is a sister group to the East African population that gave rise to the out-of-Africa groups. The drift between the Basal African node and the population that splits into Eastern and southern Africans is small compared to the rest of the graph, but it appears to provide a better fit to the data. We did not further investigate the population history of Yoruba as the focus of our analyses is southern Africa.
Not only that but A1 is found in Moroccans while rare it is found there nonetheless. From what I've seen the oldest haplogroup A lineages are found in West Africa and North West Africa. East African A-M13 and South African A-M51 are both old but not as old as A1 and A00 both which are found in western Africa.

What are you guys thoughts?

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Oshun
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Didn't they find a new skull or jaw that's 300,000 years old in Morocco? So far the data would suggest that West Africa may have been the home to the oldest humans.
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BlessedbyHorus
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quote:
Originally posted by Oshun:
Didn't they find a new skull or jaw that's 300,000 years old in Morocco? So far the data would suggest that West Africa may have been the home to the oldest humans.

Good point. That adds even more positive arguments for this.

I swear that the Western=Central part of Africa is so neglected.

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Elmaestro
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TBH, in my eyes this wouldn't be ground breaking... I'm just not trying to look self centered, which is why I tread this topic lightly now. I called Ancient recombination in YRI dragging them away from other pops, I also suggested the deep rooted west Africa -> OOA correspondence... (I believe I refereed to it as "parallel geneflow" in the past.). I also suggested a layered West African genetic history before any wide spread contemporary Eurasian admixture on the continent, which should have been evident by A, B, DE, E then YAP being present. Ish Gebor, for example have been spamming quotes and articles mentioning these things for eons. And of course Oshuns point about Jebel Ihroud. Consensus placed Human Origins in East Africa, but it doesn't make much of a difference if you ask me. ...Why? Because most of modern humans diverged from the same branch of AMH relatively recently, we were all apart of the same population for over HALF of HUMAN HISTORY.

Basal D/E and the spread of E is interesting though, cuz we might be seeing evidence of early migration over Gibraltar as well as a Saharan origin for Pn2, -credit to E being West African and not even fully realize it.

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BlessedbyHorus
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quote:
Originally posted by Elmaestro:
TBH, in my eyes this wouldn't be ground breaking... I'm just not trying to look self centered, which is why I tread this topic lightly now. I called Ancient recombination in YRI dragging them away from other pops, I also suggested the deep rooted west Africa -> OOA correspondence... (I believe I refereed to it as "parallel geneflow" in the past.). I also suggested a layered West African genetic history before any wide spread contemporary Eurasian admixture on the continent, which should have been evident by A, B, DE, E then YAP being present. Ish Gebor, for example have been spamming quotes and articles mentioning these things for eons. And of course Oshuns point about Jebel Ihroud. Consensus placed Human Origins in East Africa, but it doesn't make much of a difference if you ask me. ...Why? Because most of modern humans diverged from the same branch of AMH relatively recently, we were all apart of the same population for over HALF of HUMAN HISTORY.

Basal D/E and the spread of E is interesting though, cuz we might be seeing evidence of early migration over Gibraltar as well as a Saharan origin for Pn2, -credit to E being West African and not even fully realize it.

Good post. But I just wanna make this thread the official thread for this. I personally believe DE could have originated from West Africa. I mean aren't most DE carriers we seen been of West African descent?
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Elmaestro
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I don't know why DE isn't labelled west African right now TBH, maybe Capra can help out.... and Explain whats up but to my knowledge... DE... flat was only found in West Africa, (and an Afram I believe)...

But from there where do we go... if Basal E is hands down West African, what would that help explain in the grand scheme of things in your opinion?

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BlessedbyHorus
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@Elmaestro

We already know why thats not the case. They're just going by authority. If it wasn't mostly found in East Africans then it wouldn't be a problem.


I mean just look at this...


quote:
The new haplogroup, labeled DE* according to the nomenclature of the Y CHROMOSOME CONSORTIUM 2002 Down, has been found in 5 Nigerians (from different villages, languages, ethnic backgrounds, and paternal birthplaces) from a data set of >8000 men worldwide, including 1247 Nigerians. The position of these 5 Nigerians on the Y chromosome tree has been confirmed by repeated typing for all the known UEP markers immediately above and below node a in Fig 1 (YAP, M145, M203, M174, M96, P29, and SRY4064) as well as for five additional UEP markers (92R7, M9, M20, 12f2, and SRY10831) as shown in Fig 1. The asterisk in DE* indicates that it is potentially, but not definitely, paraphyletic relative to one or both of groups D and E (Fig 2). The term "paragroup" has been applied to such haplogroups (Y CHROMOSOME CONSORTIUM 2002 Down). To help resolve the issue of paraphyletic status, we typed YAP-derived individuals in our data set for six microsatellites: DYS19, DYS388, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, and DYS393. Of the five DE* individuals, three had a microsatellite haplotype consisting of repeat sizes 13-13-22-11-11-13 (loci arranged in same order as listed above) while the other two had a haplotype differing by one step at DYS391 only (13-13-22-10-11-13). This high level of similarity in such a rapidly evolving system strongly suggests that these five individuals share a private common ancestor (as in Fig 2C, Fig D, or e). We note that of the three possible branching patterns, two (Fig 2C and Fig D) would imply an African origin for YAP, while the third (Fig 2E) would leave the question of origins open. However, it is not easy to assess the relative probabilities of these three patterns.
Rare Deep-Rooting Y Chromosome Lineages in Humans:
Lessons for Phylogeography



quote:
The B-M60 variant observed in almost all sub-Saharan collections [28] was only found in Nalú. One other Nalú individual belongs to the rare and deep-rooting DE* paragroup described in five Nigerians [37] and thus representing a coalescent "missing link", paraphyletic to haplogroups D and E. The two Western European R1b-P25 lineages in Fulbe and Bijagós are best explained by recent European influence, at the time of the slave trade. A partial introduction through North African pastoral immigrants can not be rejected, where the 3–12% of R1b-P25 are due to the geographic proximity and the long reported contacts with Europe and Middle-East [33]. The European source seems nevertheless more likely: firstly, Y chromosome signatures of European presence have a reported great expression in the nearby Cape Verdians [38] and secondly, highly frequent North African haplogroups that would have been equally carried by the migrants (e.g. E3b2-M81) are absent in Guineans. The M173 and P25 derived states in both our samples rule out a relationship to the R1*-M173 lineage previously found in Cameroon, Oman, Egypt and Rwanda, and adduced to support the "Back-to-Africa" theory [3,28].
quote:
Further refinement awaits the finding of new markers especially within paragroup E3a*-M2. The microsatellite profile of the DE* individual is one mutational step away from the allelic state described for Nigerians (DYS390*21, DYS388 not tested; [37], therefore suggesting a common ancestry but not elucidating the phylogenetics.
Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau: a multiethnic perspective

Like I said if its confirmed that DE origined in the Western part of Africa then expect this to pop off online.
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As for E that would explain things. But I don't see why E can't be East African and then migrated back into West Africa.

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BlessedbyHorus
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Anyone else?
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capra
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quote:
Originally posted by Elmaestro:
I don't know why DE isn't labelled west African right now TBH, maybe Capra can help out.... and Explain whats up but to my knowledge... DE... flat was only found in West Africa, (and an Afram I believe)...

DE* is also reported from 2 Tibetans (Shi et al 2008, "Y chromosome evidence of earliest modern human settlement in East Asia and multiple origins of Tibetan and Japanese populations"). That case, however, was only tested for a few markers and did not show up at all in a much larger survey by Qi et al, so it may or may not be valid (and if it is, could be a completely different branch).

Also, a Syrian man with DE* was found through private testing.

A really rare lineage like this is easy to miss by chance, so it's hard to say for sure where it is or isn't. But mostly it just seems like no one is really interested; no one has so much as passed the hat around to get a Big Y done.

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BlessedbyHorus
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@capra


Not only that but DE has also been found in Benin but also African-Americans(although private testing).
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Your thoughts?

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capra
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Well, African-Americans are a very large and diverse sample of West-Central Africans, so almost anything found there ought to show up in the New World too.

I guess these are 23andMe results? If anyone happens to be acquainted with any of them they could ask whether they are interested in getting a full Y DNA analysis.

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BlessedbyHorus
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quote:
Originally posted by capra:
Well, African-Americans are a very large and diverse sample of West-Central Africans, so almost anything found there ought to show up in the New World too.

I guess these are 23andMe results? If anyone happens to be acquainted with any of them they could ask whether they are interested in getting a full Y DNA analysis.

Yes they are 23andMe results.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
@capra


Not only that but DE has also been found in Benin but also African-Americans(although private testing).
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Your thoughts?

Is there something missing? what is going on with the light green bars?
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Ish Gebor
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^ Those are private names.
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