...
EgyptSearch Forums Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» EgyptSearch Forums » Egyptology » West Africa? Origins for Basel African?

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: West Africa? Origins for Basel African?
Elite Diasporan
Moderator
Member # 22000

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Elite Diasporan     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I've been wanting to make this thread for a while now. Its basically a spin off from this thread and this thread.

I created this thread because I want to discuss one specific part from that Schlebusch study.

This may sound like a long stretch/reach but is it becoming more realistic that Basel Africa arose in the Western part of Africa? From that Schlebusch study these parts stuck out the most to me.
 -
quote:
We tried to add Yoruba as a simple split off from any internal node of the model or by adding internal nodes from which Yoruba would split off, but none of these models were consistent with the data with |Z|<3. Furthermore, models assuming Yoruba as a two-way admixture between any of the internal nodes failed. A model which did fit the data is where Yoruba are modeled as a two-way admixture of two additional nodes: one Basal African node above the split between ancient East Africans and ancient southern Africans and a second group, which is a sister group to the East African population that gave rise to the out-of-Africa groups. The drift between the Basal African node and the population that splits into Eastern and southern Africans is small compared to the rest of the graph, but it appears to provide a better fit to the data. We did not further investigate the population history of Yoruba as the focus of our analyses is southern Africa.
Not only that but A1 is found in Moroccans while rare it is found there nonetheless. From what I've seen the oldest haplogroup A lineages are found in West Africa and North West Africa. East African A-M13 and South African A-M51 are both old but not as old as A1 and A00 both which are found in western Africa.

What are you guys thoughts?

Posts: 993 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Oshun
Member
Member # 19740

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Oshun     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Didn't they find a new skull or jaw that's 300,000 years old in Morocco? So far the data would suggest that West Africa may have been the home to the oldest humans.
Posts: 1595 | From: united states | Registered: Nov 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elite Diasporan
Moderator
Member # 22000

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Elite Diasporan     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun:
Didn't they find a new skull or jaw that's 300,000 years old in Morocco? So far the data would suggest that West Africa may have been the home to the oldest humans.

Good point. That adds even more positive arguments for this.

I swear that the Western=Central part of Africa is so neglected.

Posts: 993 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elmaestro
Member
Member # 22566

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Elmaestro     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TBH, in my eyes this wouldn't be ground breaking... I'm just not trying to look self centered, which is why I tread this topic lightly now. I called Ancient recombination in YRI dragging them away from other pops, I also suggested the deep rooted west Africa -> OOA correspondence... (I believe I refereed to it as "parallel geneflow" in the past.). I also suggested a layered West African genetic history before any wide spread contemporary Eurasian admixture on the continent, which should have been evident by A, B, DE, E then YAP being present. Ish Gebor, for example have been spamming quotes and articles mentioning these things for eons. And of course Oshuns point about Jebel Ihroud. Consensus placed Human Origins in East Africa, but it doesn't make much of a difference if you ask me. ...Why? Because most of modern humans diverged from the same branch of AMH relatively recently, we were all apart of the same population for over HALF of HUMAN HISTORY.

Basal D/E and the spread of E is interesting though, cuz we might be seeing evidence of early migration over Gibraltar as well as a Saharan origin for Pn2, -credit to E being West African and not even fully realize it.

Posts: 612 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elite Diasporan
Moderator
Member # 22000

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Elite Diasporan     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Elmaestro:
TBH, in my eyes this wouldn't be ground breaking... I'm just not trying to look self centered, which is why I tread this topic lightly now. I called Ancient recombination in YRI dragging them away from other pops, I also suggested the deep rooted west Africa -> OOA correspondence... (I believe I refereed to it as "parallel geneflow" in the past.). I also suggested a layered West African genetic history before any wide spread contemporary Eurasian admixture on the continent, which should have been evident by A, B, DE, E then YAP being present. Ish Gebor, for example have been spamming quotes and articles mentioning these things for eons. And of course Oshuns point about Jebel Ihroud. Consensus placed Human Origins in East Africa, but it doesn't make much of a difference if you ask me. ...Why? Because most of modern humans diverged from the same branch of AMH relatively recently, we were all apart of the same population for over HALF of HUMAN HISTORY.

Basal D/E and the spread of E is interesting though, cuz we might be seeing evidence of early migration over Gibraltar as well as a Saharan origin for Pn2, -credit to E being West African and not even fully realize it.

Good post. But I just wanna make this thread the official thread for this. I personally believe DE could have originated from West Africa. I mean aren't most DE carriers we seen been of West African descent?
Posts: 993 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elmaestro
Member
Member # 22566

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Elmaestro     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't know why DE isn't labelled west African right now TBH, maybe Capra can help out.... and Explain whats up but to my knowledge... DE... flat was only found in West Africa, (and an Afram I believe)...

But from there where do we go... if Basal E is hands down West African, what would that help explain in the grand scheme of things in your opinion?

Posts: 612 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elite Diasporan
Moderator
Member # 22000

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Elite Diasporan     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
@Elmaestro

We already know why thats not the case. They're just going by authority. If it wasn't mostly found in East Africans then it wouldn't be a problem.


I mean just look at this...


quote:
The new haplogroup, labeled DE* according to the nomenclature of the Y CHROMOSOME CONSORTIUM 2002 Down, has been found in 5 Nigerians (from different villages, languages, ethnic backgrounds, and paternal birthplaces) from a data set of >8000 men worldwide, including 1247 Nigerians. The position of these 5 Nigerians on the Y chromosome tree has been confirmed by repeated typing for all the known UEP markers immediately above and below node a in Fig 1 (YAP, M145, M203, M174, M96, P29, and SRY4064) as well as for five additional UEP markers (92R7, M9, M20, 12f2, and SRY10831) as shown in Fig 1. The asterisk in DE* indicates that it is potentially, but not definitely, paraphyletic relative to one or both of groups D and E (Fig 2). The term "paragroup" has been applied to such haplogroups (Y CHROMOSOME CONSORTIUM 2002 Down). To help resolve the issue of paraphyletic status, we typed YAP-derived individuals in our data set for six microsatellites: DYS19, DYS388, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, and DYS393. Of the five DE* individuals, three had a microsatellite haplotype consisting of repeat sizes 13-13-22-11-11-13 (loci arranged in same order as listed above) while the other two had a haplotype differing by one step at DYS391 only (13-13-22-10-11-13). This high level of similarity in such a rapidly evolving system strongly suggests that these five individuals share a private common ancestor (as in Fig 2C, Fig D, or e). We note that of the three possible branching patterns, two (Fig 2C and Fig D) would imply an African origin for YAP, while the third (Fig 2E) would leave the question of origins open. However, it is not easy to assess the relative probabilities of these three patterns.
Rare Deep-Rooting Y Chromosome Lineages in Humans:
Lessons for Phylogeography



quote:
The B-M60 variant observed in almost all sub-Saharan collections [28] was only found in Nalú. One other Nalú individual belongs to the rare and deep-rooting DE* paragroup described in five Nigerians [37] and thus representing a coalescent "missing link", paraphyletic to haplogroups D and E. The two Western European R1b-P25 lineages in Fulbe and Bijagós are best explained by recent European influence, at the time of the slave trade. A partial introduction through North African pastoral immigrants can not be rejected, where the 3–12% of R1b-P25 are due to the geographic proximity and the long reported contacts with Europe and Middle-East [33]. The European source seems nevertheless more likely: firstly, Y chromosome signatures of European presence have a reported great expression in the nearby Cape Verdians [38] and secondly, highly frequent North African haplogroups that would have been equally carried by the migrants (e.g. E3b2-M81) are absent in Guineans. The M173 and P25 derived states in both our samples rule out a relationship to the R1*-M173 lineage previously found in Cameroon, Oman, Egypt and Rwanda, and adduced to support the "Back-to-Africa" theory [3,28].
quote:
Further refinement awaits the finding of new markers especially within paragroup E3a*-M2. The microsatellite profile of the DE* individual is one mutational step away from the allelic state described for Nigerians (DYS390*21, DYS388 not tested; [37], therefore suggesting a common ancestry but not elucidating the phylogenetics.
Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau: a multiethnic perspective

Like I said if its confirmed that DE origined in the Western part of Africa then expect this to pop off online.
 -

As for E that would explain things. But I don't see why E can't be East African and then migrated back into West Africa.

Posts: 993 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elite Diasporan
Moderator
Member # 22000

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Elite Diasporan     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Anyone else?
Posts: 993 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
capra
Member
Member # 22737

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for capra     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Elmaestro:
I don't know why DE isn't labelled west African right now TBH, maybe Capra can help out.... and Explain whats up but to my knowledge... DE... flat was only found in West Africa, (and an Afram I believe)...

DE* is also reported from 2 Tibetans (Shi et al 2008, "Y chromosome evidence of earliest modern human settlement in East Asia and multiple origins of Tibetan and Japanese populations"). That case, however, was only tested for a few markers and did not show up at all in a much larger survey by Qi et al, so it may or may not be valid (and if it is, could be a completely different branch).

Also, a Syrian man with DE* was found through private testing.

A really rare lineage like this is easy to miss by chance, so it's hard to say for sure where it is or isn't. But mostly it just seems like no one is really interested; no one has so much as passed the hat around to get a Big Y done.

Posts: 227 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2017  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elite Diasporan
Moderator
Member # 22000

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Elite Diasporan     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
@capra


Not only that but DE has also been found in Benin but also African-Americans(although private testing).
 -

Your thoughts?

Posts: 993 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
capra
Member
Member # 22737

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for capra     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well, African-Americans are a very large and diverse sample of West-Central Africans, so almost anything found there ought to show up in the New World too.

I guess these are 23andMe results? If anyone happens to be acquainted with any of them they could ask whether they are interested in getting a full Y DNA analysis.

Posts: 227 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2017  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elite Diasporan
Moderator
Member # 22000

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Elite Diasporan     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by capra:
Well, African-Americans are a very large and diverse sample of West-Central Africans, so almost anything found there ought to show up in the New World too.

I guess these are 23andMe results? If anyone happens to be acquainted with any of them they could ask whether they are interested in getting a full Y DNA analysis.

Yes they are 23andMe results.
Posts: 993 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
@capra


Not only that but DE has also been found in Benin but also African-Americans(although private testing).
 -

Your thoughts?

Is there something missing? what is going on with the light green bars?
Posts: 31693 | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Gebor
Member
Member # 18264

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ish Gebor   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
^ Those are private names.
Posts: 18617 | From: pAsidaw SIGILLUM SECRETUM | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elite Diasporan
Moderator
Member # 22000

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Elite Diasporan     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
^Indeed.
Posts: 993 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Gebor
Member
Member # 18264

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ish Gebor   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
^Indeed.

It is not surprising lioness didn't know this, after lioness just told to have a "degree in fly swatting".


quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
I have a degree in fly swatting

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009739;p=1#000024
Posts: 18617 | From: pAsidaw SIGILLUM SECRETUM | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
capra
Member
Member # 22737

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for capra     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Loads of interesting stuff at the SMBE conference. Relevant to this thread:

"The population genomic landscape of Africa prior to its transformation by expansions of farmers and pastoralists is poorly understood, partly due to poor ancient DNA preservation and partly due to the deep time scale of human population history on the continent. We assembled genome-wide data from ten sub-Saharan Africans who lived in the last 4,500 years, and show that one of the most deeply divergent present-day human lineages that is today found almost exclusively in people living in southern Africa, was in the past 2,000 years also present in populations much farther north in Malawi and the Zanzibar archipelago. These results highlight the existence of an ancient genetic cline stretched over thousands of kilometers along a south-north axis. By leveraging data from ancient African genomes without ancestry from more recent into-Africa migrations, we show that western Africans today may harbor ancestry from a lineage that separated from other modern human lineages earlier than any other, including the Khoe-San of southern Africa. Finally, we use the availability of time-stratified southern African genomes to document evidence of both selective sweeps and polygenic selection that might have conferred adaptations to desert environments."

Razib Khan's twitter feed has a a bunch of details. 3000 year old Tanzanian pastoralist, cool.

Posts: 227 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2017  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elmaestro
Member
Member # 22566

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Elmaestro     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yep!
We're right back to Hadza carying ancient east african HG
Ancient tanzanian is great lakes is 30% neolithic farmer... Khan thinks tanzania might be punt....lmao.

...It looks to me like the "Loony Afro-centrists" were on to something right all along.

Posts: 612 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
capra
Member
Member # 22737

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for capra     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
In b4 "this proves that so-called Eurasian genes are really African".
Posts: 227 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2017  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elmaestro
Member
Member # 22566

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Elmaestro     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
kmt ^ aww shit.
Posts: 612 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Gebor
Member
Member # 18264

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ish Gebor   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by capra:
quote:
Originally posted by Elmaestro:
I don't know why DE isn't labelled west African right now TBH, maybe Capra can help out.... and Explain whats up but to my knowledge... DE... flat was only found in West Africa, (and an Afram I believe)...

DE* is also reported from 2 Tibetans (Shi et al 2008, "Y chromosome evidence of earliest modern human settlement in East Asia and multiple origins of Tibetan and Japanese populations"). That case, however, was only tested for a few markers and did not show up at all in a much larger survey by Qi et al, so it may or may not be valid (and if it is, could be a completely different branch).

Also, a Syrian man with DE* was found through private testing.

A really rare lineage like this is easy to miss by chance, so it's hard to say for sure where it is or isn't. But mostly it just seems like no one is really interested; no one has so much as passed the hat around to get a Big Y done.

Before all this it was discovered in Nigerians first, but still wasn't called African. That is the crux here.
And yeah, we spoke of this report on here at EgyptSearch years ago, when I just entered.


quote:
The microsatellite profile of the DE* individual is one mutational step away from the allelic state described for Nigerians (DYS390*21, DYS388 not tested; [37], therefore suggesting a common ancestry but not elucidating the phylogenetics.

—A Rosa et al. ‎(2007)

Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau: a multiethnic perspective


Crazy, this pops up again:

quote:
‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups.

All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14].

--Fulvio Cruciani et al.

Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree (2011)

Posts: 18617 | From: pAsidaw SIGILLUM SECRETUM | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Gebor
Member
Member # 18264

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ish Gebor   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by capra:
Loads of interesting stuff at the SMBE conference. Relevant to this thread:

"The population genomic landscape of Africa prior to its transformation by expansions of farmers and pastoralists is poorly understood, partly due to poor ancient DNA preservation and partly due to the deep time scale of human population history on the continent. We assembled genome-wide data from ten sub-Saharan Africans who lived in the last 4,500 years, and show that one of the most deeply divergent present-day human lineages that is today found almost exclusively in people living in southern Africa, was in the past 2,000 years also present in populations much farther north in Malawi and the Zanzibar archipelago. These results highlight the existence of an ancient genetic cline stretched over thousands of kilometers along a south-north axis. By leveraging data from ancient African genomes without ancestry from more recent into-Africa migrations, we show that western Africans today may harbor ancestry from a lineage that separated from other modern human lineages earlier than any other, including the Khoe-San of southern Africa. Finally, we use the availability of time-stratified southern African genomes to document evidence of both selective sweeps and polygenic selection that might have conferred adaptations to desert environments."

Razib Khan's twitter feed has a a bunch of details. 3000 year old Tanzanian pastoralist, cool.

This is what I have been saying all along.

One more important factor is:

quote:


According to the current data East Africa is home to nearly 2/3 of the world genetic diversity independent of sampling effect. Similar figure have been suggested for sub-Saharan Africa populations [1]. The antiquity of the east African gene pool could be viewed not only from the perspective of the amount of genetic diversity endowed within it but also by signals of uni-modal distribution in their mitochondrial DNA (Hassan et al., unpublished) usually taken as an indication of populations that have passed through ‘‘recent’’ demographic expansion [33], although in this case, may in fact be considered a sign of extended shared history of in situ evolution where alleles are exchanged between neighboring demes [34].

 -





--Jibril Hirbo, Sara Tishkoff et al.

The Episode of Genetic Drift Defining the Migration of Humans out of Africa Is Derived from a Large East African Population Size

PLoS One. 2014; 9(5): e97674.
Published online 2014 May 20. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0097674

Posts: 18617 | From: pAsidaw SIGILLUM SECRETUM | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Andromeda2025
Junior Member
Member # 22772

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Andromeda2025     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If you are going to post racist Razib Khan's quotes why not post them all, what the hell with the cherry picking? 2 Things, dispersion of west Africans from east africa is pretty obvious many of the haplogroup sets have east west clines in the Sudanic belt. & West Africans are not homogeneous... DUH

 -

Posts: 86 | From: Miami Beach, Florida | Registered: Jun 2017  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Gebor
Member
Member # 18264

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ish Gebor   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
Not only that but A1 is found in Moroccans while rare it is found there nonetheless. From what I've seen the oldest haplogroup A lineages are found in West Africa and North West Africa. East African A-M13 and South African A-M51 are both old but not as old as A1 and A00 both which are found in western Africa.

What are you guys thoughts?

So now we can complete (reconstruct) the Nubian Complex.

quote:
It is not only genetic data that lends support to an east African origin of humans but the unparalleled ethnic and linguistic diversity that remains one of the highest worldwide. Interestingly the two most ancestral sequences in the NJ tree figure refer to Nubian individuals.


Nubia is currently identified with one of the most ancient human settlements, the Say culture. Recently, a related compound associated with a lithic middle Stone Age Industry was discovered in Dhofar Oman and taken as an evidence of human migration out of Africa through an Arabian route [46]. Overall, the various genetic markers used in the current analysis support the observation of human effective population size larger than previously estimated, and emphasize the importance of sampling populations of putative deep ancestry.

--Jibril Hirbo, Sara Tishkoff et al.

The Episode of Genetic Drift Defining the Migration of Humans out of Africa Is Derived from a Large East African Population Size

PLoS One. 2014; 9(5): e97674.
Published online 2014 May 20. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0097674

Posts: 18617 | From: pAsidaw SIGILLUM SECRETUM | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Gebor
Member
Member # 18264

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ish Gebor   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun:
Didn't they find a new skull or jaw that's 300,000 years old in Morocco? So far the data would suggest that West Africa may have been the home to the oldest humans.

See this thread i.e. post, it is still "under construction".

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009609;p=1#000025

Posts: 18617 | From: pAsidaw SIGILLUM SECRETUM | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Fourty2Tribes
Member
Member # 21799

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Fourty2Tribes   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Elmaestro:

Ancient tanzanian is great lakes is 30% neolithic farmer... Khan thinks tanzania might be punt....lmao.

He is getting closer.
Posts: 686 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
capra
Member
Member # 22737

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for capra     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
RK is not saying that Tanzania is Punt, he is talking about depictions of relatively Caucasoid inhabitants of Punt.
Posts: 227 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2017  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Gebor
Member
Member # 18264

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ish Gebor   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by capra:
RK is not saying that Tanzania is Punt, he is talking about depictions of relatively Caucasoid inhabitants of Punt.

Offf couuuurse, what else could it be.

Btw, forumbiodiversity is one crazy alt-right website. I spend two days there, I was like these folks are trippin'. [Big Grin]

One even suggested, rather claimed / confirmed that the entire Hg E was from outside of Africa, i.e. "Eurasia" whatever the hell that is supposed to mean anyway.

I was lurking, and wondering… asking myself. But if the entire E is from Eurasia then West Africans, SSA's, negroes are from Eurasia as well.


Something doesn't add up here.

Posts: 18617 | From: pAsidaw SIGILLUM SECRETUM | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elite Diasporan
Moderator
Member # 22000

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Elite Diasporan     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by capra:
Loads of interesting stuff at the SMBE conference. Relevant to this thread:

"The population genomic landscape of Africa prior to its transformation by expansions of farmers and pastoralists is poorly understood, partly due to poor ancient DNA preservation and partly due to the deep time scale of human population history on the continent. We assembled genome-wide data from ten sub-Saharan Africans who lived in the last 4,500 years, and show that one of the most deeply divergent present-day human lineages that is today found almost exclusively in people living in southern Africa, was in the past 2,000 years also present in populations much farther north in Malawi and the Zanzibar archipelago. These results highlight the existence of an ancient genetic cline stretched over thousands of kilometers along a south-north axis. By leveraging data from ancient African genomes without ancestry from more recent into-Africa migrations, we show that western Africans today may harbor ancestry from a lineage that separated from other modern human lineages earlier than any other, including the Khoe-San of southern Africa. Finally, we use the availability of time-stratified southern African genomes to document evidence of both selective sweeps and polygenic selection that might have conferred adaptations to desert environments."

Razib Khan's twitter feed has a a bunch of details. 3000 year old Tanzanian pastoralist, cool.

Yeah we were discussing this on Forumbiodiversity. I was also discussing it in private with a very cool member there.

It seems at 30% West Africans carry a very old admixture that was Basel African. Don't know if its older than the ones Khoisan/Twa carry.

Posts: 993 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elite Diasporan
Moderator
Member # 22000

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Elite Diasporan     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by capra:
RK is not saying that Tanzania is Punt, he is talking about depictions of relatively Caucasoid inhabitants of Punt.

Though the people of Punt and these Pastoral Southern Cushite were NOT "Caucasoid" at least in the sense they were Western Eurasian. They most likely had some West Eurasian admixture but they would have been indigenous Africans imo.
Posts: 993 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Gebor
Member
Member # 18264

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ish Gebor   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
quote:
Originally posted by capra:
RK is not saying that Tanzania is Punt, he is talking about depictions of relatively Caucasoid inhabitants of Punt.

Though the people of Punt and these Pastoral Southern Cushite were NOT "Caucasoid" at least in the sense they were Western Eurasian. They most likely had some West Eurasian admixture but they would have been indigenous Africans imo.
The most remarkable part remains:

quote:
"Particularly, Yemen has the largest contribution of L lineages (30). So, most probably, this area was the entrance gate of a portion of these lineages in prehistoric times, which participated in the building of the primitive Arabian population."


Under these suppositions, the Arabian Peninsula, as an obliged step between East Africa and South Asia, has gained crucial importance, and indeed several mtDNA studies have recently been published for this region [30-32]. However, it seems that the bulk of the Arab mtDNA lineages have northern Neolithic or more recent Asian or African origins…

—Khaled K Abu-Amero et al.

Mitochondrial DNA structure in the Arabian Peninsula


quote:

Migration of Chadic speaking pastoralists within Africa based on population structure of Chad Basin and phylogeography of mitochondrial L3f haplogroup

We use high-resolution genetic data to investigate the genetic and linguistic support for hypotheses concerning the population history in the Chad Basin. The mitochondrial L3f3 haplogroup is found almost exclusively in Chadic speaking populations and its TMRCA corresponds well with archaeological and linguistic dates of the proposed migration of Chadic speaking pastoralists from East or North East Africa to the Chad Basin.

Haplogroup L3f is defined by the coding variants

3396-4218-15514-15944del and the control region motif 16209–16519 with a TMRCA of 57,100 ± 9,400 YBP. This haplogroup diversifies into sub-haplogroups L3f1, L3f2 and L3f3. The most geographically widespread sub-haplogroup is L3f1, which is distributed across the African continent [3] and also Arabia [32,33] and has a TMRCA of 48,600 ± 11,500 YBP.

..."The youngest clade, L3f1b2, seems to be more frequent in the Middle East. L3f1a seems to be older (37,700 ± 10,000 YBP) than its sister sub-haplogroup L3f1b and is also less diversified. A few samples from Chad belong to these sub-haplogroups: two to L3f1a and one to L3f1b3."

"We then estimated pairwise FST genetic distances between populations (Additional file 4) and displayed these on a MDS plot (Figure 3). Interesting results are immediately evident – while Chadic populations form a relatively homogeneous group, the Cushitic populations split into two completely different clusters. The first group is composed of Horn of African populations, such as Ethiopian and Somali Cushitic populations, which are close to neighbouring Ethiopian Semitic speaking groups and relatively close also to Chadic people from the Chad Basin. The second Cushitic group is composed by more southern groups from Tanzania, i.e. Burunge and Iraqw, who occupy outlier positions even within the Afro-Asiatic MDS plot. In the MDS plot, geography is more strongly associated with genetic distance than is linguistic affiliation.

Overall, we observe that Chadic speaking populations are intermixed with other populations from Chad Basin, including Niger-Congo, Semitic, and Berber speaking people. In this context, it seems that the linguistic categories play a secondary role in structuring the genetic diversity."

—Victor Cerny

Out of Arabia—The Settlement of Island Soqotra asRevealed by Mitochondrial and Y ChromosomeGenetic Diversity

Posts: 18617 | From: pAsidaw SIGILLUM SECRETUM | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elite Diasporan
Moderator
Member # 22000

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Elite Diasporan     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
@Ish Gebor


Good post. Adds to the puzzle.

Posts: 993 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Gebor
Member
Member # 18264

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ish Gebor   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
@Ish Gebor


Good post. Adds to the puzzle.

It is all about the puzzles, all about the puzzles. This was taken down quickly at that alt-right website, forumbiodiversity.


quote:
African and Middle Eastern populations shared the greatest number of alleles absent from all other populations (fig. S6B).

—Sarah A. Tishkoff et al.
The Genetic Structure and History of Africans and African Americans


quote:
Based on FST values, the mitochondrial genetic diversity of Soqotra is statistically different (P \ 0.01) from the comparative populations. An MDS plot of FST values shows that the Soqotra sample is clearly distinct from all sub-Saharan, North African, Middle East, and Indian populations (see Fig. 2).

High differentiation of the East African groups such as the Sandawe, Hadza, Turu, Datog, and Burunge is shown on the left side of the graph. However, there is a general similarity of the remaining sub-Saharan African populations, particularly those from the Sahel band and the Chad Basin (with the exception of the Fulani nomads). Subsequently, there is a transitional zone formed by the populations from Ethiopia and the Nile Valley but also by some Yemeni groups, particularly the ones from the eastern parts of the country (Hadramawt).

—Victor Cerny
Posts: 18617 | From: pAsidaw SIGILLUM SECRETUM | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Andromeda2025
Junior Member
Member # 22772

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Andromeda2025     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
L2a is widespread in Africa and the most common and widely distributed sub-Saharan African Haplogroup and is also somewhat frequent at 19% in the Americas among descendants of Africans (Salas et al., 2002). L2a has a possible date of origin approx. 48,000 YBP.[1]
It is particularly abundant in Chad (38% of the sample), and in Non-Bantu populations of East Africa (Kenya, Uganda and Tanzania) at 38%.[8] About 33% in Mozambique[10] and 32% in Ghana.[9] The wide distribution of L2a and diversity makes identifying a geographical origin difficult. The main puzzle is the almost ubiquitous Haplogroup L2a, which may have spread East and West along the Sahel Corridor in North Africa after the Last Glacial Maximum, or the origins of these expansions may lie earlier, at the beginnings of the Later Stone Age, ∼40,000 years ago.[4][11]
In East Africa L2a was found 15% in Nile Valley- Nubia, 5% of Egyptians, 14% of Cushite speakers, 15% of Semitic Amhara people, 10% of Gurage, 6% of Tigray-Tigrinya people, 13% of Ethiopians and 5% of Yemenis.[10]
Haplogroup L2a also appears in North Africa, with the highest frequency 20% Tuareg, Fulani (14%). Found also among some Algeria Arabs, it is found at 10% among Moroccan Arabs, some Moroccan Berbers and Tunisian Berbers. (watson 1997) et al., (vigilant 1991) et al. 1991.

Posts: 86 | From: Miami Beach, Florida | Registered: Jun 2017  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Gebor
Member
Member # 18264

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ish Gebor   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
@Ish Gebor


Good post. Adds to the puzzle.

It's remarkable, according to their own wording at forumbiodiversity they claim that Copts carry E-M78 extensively.

However:

quote:
E-M78 represents 74.5% of haplogroup E, the highest frequencies observed in Masalit and Fur populations. E-M33 (5.2%) is largely confined to Fulani and Hausa, whereas E-M2 is restricted to Hausa. E-M215 was found to occur more in Nilo-Saharan rather than Afro-Asiatic speaking groups.
--Hassan HY1, Underhill PA, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Ibrahim ME.

Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History

Am J Phys Anthropol. 2008 Nov;137(3):316-23. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.20876.


You can look up pics of these paternal carries of E1b1b. I am not going to spam the forum. Irony is that the remaining major clade is the A3b2 lineage, which is extremely old and obviously has reduced / diverted overtime.

Posts: 18617 | From: pAsidaw SIGILLUM SECRETUM | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
capra
Member
Member # 22737

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for capra     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
Though the people of Punt and these Pastoral Southern Cushite were NOT "Caucasoid" at least in the sense they were Western Eurasian. They most likely had some West Eurasian admixture but they would have been indigenous Africans imo.

Yeah, I agree, the West Eurasian element would have arrived thousands of years before, Neolithic or earlier.

A long time ago RK speculated that the West Eurasian ancestors of Horners might not have been completely admixed with their East African ancestors yet back in New Kingdom times, due to AE depictions of both Nilotic-looking and more Caucasoid (not lily-white obvs) people to their south, or something like that. I was just mentioning this to explain the cryptic tweet about the people of Punt. I don't know what his opinion is these days, and I think most of the admixture had probably already happened before they entered the Horn.

Posts: 227 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2017  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elmaestro
Member
Member # 22566

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Elmaestro     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
IDK how to feel yet about what we might see, it might be a bit preemptive to assume the Tanzanian is "Cushitic."

A few things were on my mind when reading a few comments and Khans feed. The date being probably the most important, The ancient sample predates the supposed East-African pastoralist expansion south... it also predates the coalesced age of M35 (Henn'08), and it just about 40% "N-Levantine," ...40%, that's unprecedented giving our current understanding of the East African landscape.

So one of the first things that came to my mind was MtHg J1d, found in the region, could these have any correlation? I currently feel that it probably does not, however a preceding connection between A.East-African hunter gatherers and Caucuses peoples is definitely a reality; see bromhead & Gambele cave (Elmenteita). Both the latter specimen and the TMRCA of J1d in S.East Africa predates this individual by over 100 generations AND, According to Khan the A.Tanzanian has no Iranian Admixture.

...I thought to myself that this sounds familiar.
 -
^for instance pickrel's dates, The Sandawe's Near East Admixture predates that of other East Africans. What would be appropriate to call these ancient great lakes populations, if up until this point They have been Cushitic before Cushites were Cushitic (Autosomally) as we know today... Pastoralism/domestication in the great lakes region predates any such thing in the horn as well archaeologically See this post for more details

I hope we get some numbers on the Amhara with this study in the future, what seems obvious to me is that there were very close ties between Nubia/Egypt and this region as well as North East Ethiopia. I also wanna toss up the possibility that some of the Near-eastern signatures can be native to the North East portion of the continent.

Posts: 612 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Andromeda2025
Junior Member
Member # 22772

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Andromeda2025     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
2) It also looks like they sampled an early South Cushitic speaker/pastoralist from Tanzania. The genome is dated to 1,000 BC (3,000 years ago) and has a similar genetic profile to the Somali, i.e. predominantly ancient East African + Levant_N but no ancient Iranian admixture . The fact that this genetic profile was already present as far south Tanzania pretty much confirms that the ancient admixture event took place far earlier... not a mere 3,000 years as some had suggested.


No Iranian probably means no J

Posts: 86 | From: Miami Beach, Florida | Registered: Jun 2017  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
capra
Member
Member # 22737

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for capra     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Elmaestro:
The date being probably the most important, The ancient sample predates the supposed East-African pastoralist expansion south... it also predates the coalesced age of M35 (Henn'08), and it just about 40% "N-Levantine," ...40%, that's unprecedented giving our current understanding of the East African landscape.

Do you mean to the East Africa pastoralist expansion south to South Africa, or into Tanzania? This should fall into the early part of the Highland Savanna Pastoral Neolithic from what radiocarbon dates I've seen. (Identification with South Cushites is speculative of course.)

Henn et al put E-M293 (I guess that's the M35 you have in mind) at 9-12 000 years - but this is using inaccurate Zhivotovsky STR method. Y-Full has a couple of M293 samples, their TMRCA is 3500-5800 years. Karmin et al has two Sandawe, they don't give a TMRCA but it would come to around 4-5000 years also.

The West Eurasian proportion is about like Somalis, I don't find it surprising at all actually, nor does Lank/Lol_race. They've had a long time to mix with succeeding groups. Strikingly consistent with the recent East African ghost population model from Schlebusch et al (31% OoA in Fig S6.8 and 38% in S6.9).

Agree with Andromeda2025, the 3000 year date never made sense as main/only admixture period. If the quality is good enough maybe we will get a new LD date from this sample.

Posts: 227 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2017  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Andromeda2025
Junior Member
Member # 22772

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Andromeda2025     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Whatever/ whomever admixed back to Africa from the levant was probably still for the most part African. E1B1B is present in the Levant pre 3k, no J means the admixture is mostly post african coming back to mix with relatives. Logic. For example Afram's have been in the New World going on 500k plus years with some admixture but for the most part still recognizably African, some AA's could move back to Nigeria or Ghana and blend in the local population fairly easily no problem.
Posts: 86 | From: Miami Beach, Florida | Registered: Jun 2017  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elmaestro
Member
Member # 22566

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Elmaestro     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
@Capra
I guess I remembered it wrong, but regardless the point remains, it's probably a mistake to equate a Man from 3000 years ago to a modern population(horners) based on admixture proportions... The Admixture date in the Sandawe for example was predicted to precede that of modern Cushitic speakers, and based on what AA language phylum model you use, pickrels dates as well as the site of domestication at Turkana Lake could've preceeded the language all together lol. Not to mention, there's Iranian Admixture in contemporary Cushitic populations. Schlebusch's estimations were on point, but up until now I could't publicly say/speculate with confidence that the OOA(ish) admixture in the Sans or southern HGs probably had nothing to do with Modern horners.

There are many reasons why the 3-3.5kyo date for Admixture in east Africa doesn't make sense, but it doesn't mean that they weren't correct. I am 50% certain that this individual from Tanzania won't push back the date for Admixture in East Africa.

Also look at the 2 models Khan (or Skoglund) arrives at, wtf is he talking about, NE dispersal everywhere, where? within Africa, OOA? IBD from NE.Africa as opposed to Ethiopia?

Posts: 612 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mansamusa
Member
Member # 22474

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Mansamusa     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Elmaestro:
IDK how to feel yet about what we might see, it might be a bit preemptive to assume the Tanzanian is "Cushitic."

A few things were on my mind when reading a few comments and Khans feed. The date being probably the most important, The ancient sample predates the supposed East-African pastoralist expansion south... it also predates the coalesced age of M35 (Henn'08), and it just about 40% "N-Levantine," ...40%, that's unprecedented giving our current understanding of the East African landscape.

So one of the first things that came to my mind was MtHg J1d, found in the region, could these have any correlation? I currently feel that it probably does not, however a preceding connection between A.East-African hunter gatherers and Caucuses peoples is definitely a reality; see bromhead & Gambele cave (Elmenteita). Both the latter specimen and the TMRCA of J1d in S.East Africa predates this individual by over 100 generations AND, According to Khan the A.Tanzanian has no Iranian Admixture.

...I thought to myself that this sounds familiar.
 -
^for instance pickrel's dates, The Sandawe's Near East Admixture predates that of other East Africans. What would be appropriate to call these ancient great lakes populations, if up until this point They have been Cushitic before Cushites were Cushitic (Autosomally) as we know today... Pastoralism/domestication in the great lakes region predates any such thing in the horn as well archaeologically See this post for more details

I hope we get some numbers on the Amhara with this study in the future, what seems obvious to me is that there were very close ties between Nubia/Egypt and this region as well as North East Ethiopia. I also wanna toss up the possibility that some of the Near-eastern signatures can be native to the North East portion of the continent .

Possibility? And here I was thinking probability.
Posts: 78 | From: Asia | Registered: Mar 2016  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
capra
Member
Member # 22737

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for capra     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Elmaestro:
...it's probably a mistake to equate a Man from 3000 years ago to a modern population(horners) based on admixture proportions...Schlebusch's estimations were on point, but up until now I could't publicly say/speculate with confidence that the OOA(ish) admixture in the Sans or southern HGs probably had nothing to do with Modern horners.

Bold idea, I'd bet rather that Horners get a lot (not all) of their Eurasian ancestry from Sudanese pastoralists who also were the ultimate source of the southern admixture, but I guess we'll see.

quote:
Also look at the 2 models Khan (or Skoglund) arrives at, wtf is he talking about, NE dispersal everywhere, where? within Africa, OOA? IBD from NE.Africa as opposed to Ethiopia?
Not a clue, I'll ask on his blog when he gets back.
Posts: 227 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2017  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elite Diasporan
Moderator
Member # 22000

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Elite Diasporan     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Good discussion. THIS is what I want the Egyptology section to be like. Keep it up.
Posts: 993 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | EgyptSearch!

(c) 2015 EgyptSearch.com

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3