quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: DNA evidence should be only one aspect of the story, not the end all be all like some folks try to proclaim or promote.
Especially if it's from a subpopulation we already knew stood out from other Egyptians in different time periods and regions. Findings like this can't necessarily be interpreted outside of a larger context as revealed by other data. That'd be like how some people here wanted to treat the DNA Tribes reports as the final word on AE affinities before this came out.
Furthermore, the bigger problem is often less with the data itself than with how the uninformed might interpret it. Recall that, in the ADMIXTURE charts, the largest ancestry component in the Abusir el-Meleq mummy genomes appeared to be the brown "Natufian" component. If you look at the ADMIXTURE charts in the study's supplementary material, you'll find Northeast African populations like the Somalis and Ethiopians have plenty of the same brown component. The trick is will be to figure out how much of that brown component is native to North Africa (e.g. "Basal Eurasian") and how much of it is genuinely Eurasian. If it's largely African, then the Abusir el-Meleq mummies aren't purely Eurasian transplants anyway.
Even if they weren't Eurasian transplants, the message that even the uninformed got from the study is that the Abusir sample is much closer to Near Easterners than SSA and that to argue that the brown "Natufian" component is genetically African, many Near Easterners would be understood as an extension of Africa as well.
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posted
It could be just me, but I find it ironic that we live in a time where many “Westerners” are hypersensitive about “The Wall” and culture replacement in Europe/North America. In a historic context I wonder about the dialogue Africans were having around the time of the inception of the Wall of Sneferu.
-------------------- Black Roots. Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Evergreen: It could be just me, but I find it ironic that we live in a time where many “Westerners” are hypersensitive about “The Wall” and culture replacement in Europe/North America. In a historic context I wonder about the dialogue Africans were having around the time of the inception of the Wall of Sneferu.
FWIW, this is from the Middle Kingdom "Prophecy of Neferti" during the reign of Amenemhet I:
quote:One will build the Walls-of-the-Ruler, To bar Asiatics from entering Egypt; They shall beg water as supplicants, So as to let their cattle drink. Then Order will return to its seat, While Chaos is driven away.
Although to be sure, the later Senusret III adopted a similar policy against immigrants from the south as recorded on the Semna stela:
quote:Southern boundary, made in the year 8, under the majesty of the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Khekure (Senusret III), who is given life forever and ever; in order to prevent that any [Southerner] should cross it, by water or by land, with a ship, (or) any herds of the [Southerners]; except a [Southerner] who shall come to do trading in Iken, or with a commission. Every good thing shall be done with them, but without allowing a ship of the [Southerners] to pass by Heh (Semna), going downstream forever.
It's not new, it's revisioned to support an agenda.
quote:“haplogroup J
To resume, our results clearly reject the scenario put forward so far of a strict correlation between the Arab expansion in historical times and the overall pattern of distribution of J1-related chromosomes. Similarly, the causal association between STR-defined haplotypes and ethnic groups appear without any robust support, making its use inadequate for forensic or genealogical purposes. Instead, J1 variation provided the genetic background to correlate climatic changes to human demographic and socio-cultural events scarcely documented in the archaeological record – the dispersal of hunter gatherers after the termination of glacial conditions in the late Pleistocene and the desertification-driven retreat of tribes of Saharan and Arabian foragers in the transition to a food-producing economy. ”
~Sergio Tofanelli et al.
J1-M267 Y lineage marks climate-driven pre-historical human displacements
European Journal of Human Genetics (2009) 17, 1520 – 1524
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Exactly and heck lets say the Abu Sier mummies were Eurasian, say they(or another hypothetical population) were determined to be Blonde Blue eyed R1b with fair skin and inhabited Egypt from the Predynastic era(I know Eurasian doesnt equal Blond hair etc)...SO WHAT This doesnt disprove the EVIDENCE WE ALREADY HAVE.....We have the A-Group Sudani burials intertwining with Upper Egyptian territory and with proto-Egyptian iconography like the Qatsul burner, We have the Cave Art in places like Gilf Gebir with Proto-Egyptian dieties like Nut and Hathor, we have the Badarian burials, the more advanced culture of Upper Egypt and Northern Sudan v the Lower Egyptian culture. We have TONS of A.Egyptian Art depicting Dark Brown and Black Skinned NAtives in various positions of the state from the Aristocracy to the Peasantry, We have the Neheshi infiltrations/intermarrying as early as the 4th Dynasty; the 12th Dynasty Uah-Ka Neshi revitalizing Kemetian culture and even using PR propaganda in the form of the Neferti prophesy to justify his Sudani ancestry. We have Ramses depicting some of the enemy Neheshi with the same Red skin as himself thus unintentionally grouping them with himself, something not seen with his Asiatic and Coastal Lybian enemies who he depicted as having lighter skin.
What Nehesi intermarriages are you talking about in the 4th dynasty? Also, while I don't boast the greatest understanding of Egyptology, the samples are always from Lower Egypt. Lower Egypt ancient and modern has become the face of Egypt despite the role of Upper Egypt. Everything you mentioned describes influences from southern Egypt and Nubia. Keeping artistic, genetic and archeological focus on Lower Egypt is what will likely continue.
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quote:Six pear-shaped stone maceheads were recorded, one with a bull’s head in relief. Other small finds include various articles of jewelry: bracelets or armbands of shell, ivory, leather and horn, and many beads of stone, copper, shell and faïence. A few small carved animal figurines (dogs, lions and a hippopotamus) were also excavated. An ivory cylinder seal carved with three rows of animals (dogs, a crocodile, antelopes, jackals, a scorpion, snake and vultures) was found in Grave 1035. Of local manufacture, this cylinder seal is a type of artifact that originated in Mesopotamia, as did its orientalizing motifs.
When we consider the northern location of the Abusir el-Meleq cemetery not only are the occurrences of the cylinder seal and the several vessels of Palestinian influence significant, but also two types of skeletons have been distinguished in the anthropological study. An “Upper Egyptian” type occurs, but there is also a more robust “Lower Egyptian” type, which may represent the descendants of the Predynastic Ma’adi culture of Lower Egypt. In the fourth millennium BC, Abusir el-Meleq must have played some role in the colonization of Lower Egypt by peoples of the Upper Egyptian Nagada culture, which resulted in the subsequent disappearance of the Lower Egyptian Ma’adi culture. The site may have been an outlying post regulating the routes of communication to trade colonies in the Delta, such as Buto and Minshat Abu Omar.
Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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You just told as that everybody with a certain phenotype needs to cluster in Hg L. That is a false claim, as you know by now.
There have been "negroid/ Africoid populations" found all over the world. And with modern science we found out that they are genetically distant, but always carry the oldest DNA and RNA.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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You just told as that everybody with a certain phenotype needs to cluster in Hg L.
show us the quote where I supposedly said that
in particular me saying "everybody" or "all " - any words to the effect "must have"
Dear Lioness, I am refering to this part.
"They do not have much African ancestry and have been isolated from other Near Easterners after they arrived there around 6kya."Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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