quote:Originally posted by AncientGebts: You could have given me a clearer copy. But you're cheating, so what do I expect.
But I must remind you, cheaters never win and winners never cheat.
I'm not cheating. You said you can do translations of the bible so I am merely giving you one to translate
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posted
I'm not going to cheat like you and give the page to my Biblical Hebrew expert to translate for me.
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quote:Originally posted by AncientGebts: Look, I'm not trying to be rude, but that is not an example of mistranslation.
I remember Asar often telling me to provide a translation. I provided a transcription and what I consider word matches. He repeated to me to provide a translation.
Asar was right -- I was not providing translations. Word matches are not translations, though you can translate words. But that was not was he was asking me for.
As such, I am showing mistranslations of words, not translations of sentences, which is what I believe he was asking for.
My retranslations are of words. And if the words are mistranslated, then the supposed sentences the words are supposed to talk about are mistranslations.
If somebody writes a sentence, "The dog chased the cat"
And somebody comes along and reads the word dog as duck and cat as kite
Then some stupid person believing the translation as being "The duck chased the kite" would believe both objects have the ability of flight
But they would be wrong
Then if someone came along and showed the correct words as being dog and cat, not duck and kite
Plenty of stupid people would still refuse to believe the sentence said "The dog chased the cat"
Okay, I get all that but what does any of that have to do with Greek Theogony or even farther removed Rig Veda? You can make the argument with the Bible because of geography and history but you cannot do the same with the other texts you mentioned. What about the Sumerian Kesh Temple Hymn or the Zoroastrian Gathas? You might as well connect those two texts to the Bronze Age Egyptianized Yaffa if that's the case.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: @ DJ
Yes the Septuagint has known intentional mistranslations.
In one instance 'hare' was translated to something else. The hare is unclean to Israelites. The Emperor's wife's name was Hare. They purposefully mistranslated to avoid pissing off the emperor.
Oh I've never doubted such! When it comes to religion, the sacred texts are controlled first and foremost by the clerics who transcribe, maintain, and promulgate the texts to begin with followed by the elite rulers act in concert with the clerics to control the population. I have never doubt that original wordings and/or ideas conveyed in such texts were changed on purpose and I've always suspected as much.
Posts: 26316 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: what in the bible have you translated besides genesis? And what about New Testament?
I've retranslated the underlying text from across the Old Testament and New Testament.
In terms of the New Testament, I've retranslated the underlying text of Matthew, 1st Timothy 2, Acts, Revelation and more. And I've done it from the Peshitta (Aramaic) as well as the Greek.
The underlying text of the New Testament is the same content, context and vocabulary as the underlying text of Old Testament.
It is all farming.
LOL
So it's not just creation/origin part of the Bible but the entire Bible including the New Testament is about Egyptian farming in Yaffa?! And you base this on which mistranslations??
quote: I won't get into what came first, the chicken or the egg. In either case, both the Peshitta (Aramaic) and the Greek represent mistranslations of ancient Egyptian Yafo/Dead Sea region farming texts.
Maybe there is something more specific you can ask me.
Evidence has been emerging in the past several decades that the holy book of Islam al Quran is actually one big mistranslation of an original Syriac manuscript which was confirmed by the Sanaa Manuscript. The aforementioned manuscript shows evidence of editing via redactions and changes to the texts. Unless you can show similar evidence from Yaffa, who is to say that everything that you or that author Legesse Allyn (unless you and he are one and the same) is just some wild-eyed hypothesis with no basis ala Ancient Aliens??
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26316 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I suspect that if this is used it is not going to result in something entirely different from the standard translation.
You would have to be using translation methods for Koine Greek that are highly unusual, not the standard
Does translator associate of your agree that the bible is actually about farming not religion?
--or does he give you a mechanical standard translation and then you do additional things that result in that radically different meaning?
Again, if you are going to be getting a whole different meaning we are dealing with a much broader issue - the proper translation of Koine Greek , not a particular book, the bible
And then if we go to the OT it's in in an entirety different language but that langue ancient Hebrew, or if you prefer "Yaffa" that has also not been translated right either and doing so and then applying it to the old bible manuscripts also results in a farming theme?
How can these long elaborate books be all about farming?
That just sounds like an attempt to neutralize religion.
So Ethiopian Jews and Christian Coptics and peoole of Israel-Plaestine have been deceived all these years? tricked into thinking a book on farming was about religion salvation and one God?
and does this shut down The Qu'ran as well ?
Where did all this change of meaning start? The Old Testament is much older than the new. At what point in history did someone come in and distort the meaning. Who is responsible? And it's a book about farming.
Moses parted barley not the Sea? Jesus was crucified for planting onions instead of lettuce?
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So it's not just creation/origin part of the Bible but the entire Bible including the New Testament is about Egyptian farming in Yaffa?! And you base this on which mistranslations??
posted
AncientGebts if there were around 300 ancient Egyptian rulers why were only around 7 female?
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: I suspect that if this is used it is not going to result in something entirely different from the standard translation.
Well the problem for them is that they are saying the Codex Sinaiticus is filled with errors...
quote:After the scribes of the Codex Sinaiticus had been securely identified, an interesting feature emerged - they were not equally good at spelling.
So already they have an excuse for it not matching anything they think it should. But these are excuses to make the text say whatever they want...
quote:Of the three scribes, D was an excellent speller, A a poor speller, and B an appaUingly bad speller.
And of speller B...
quote:Ohly's theory is exploded by the evidence of spelling - the miserable B omits letters or syllables or duplicates syllables or adds meaningless letters in a way that would be incredible if he were copying by eye
posted
Even though the British Museum's article says "There is no separate translation of the Codex Sinaiticus" I can see a dramatic difference in spellings between the copy you sent me, Lioness, and the transliteration/transcription I see at Scripture4All.org.
By claiming spelling mistakes by the original authors, they can force their translation to fit any narrative they want.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Again, if you are going to be getting a whole different meaning we are dealing with a much broader issue - the proper translation of Koine Greek , not a particular book, the bible
Yes, Lioness, that is the issue -- the proper translation of Koine Greek.
Posts: 751 | From: Los Angeles | Registered: Oct 2009
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: So Ethiopian Jews and Christian Coptics and peoole of Israel-Plaestine have been deceived all these years? tricked into thinking a book on farming was about religion salvation and one God?
Yes, that's right.
Posts: 751 | From: Los Angeles | Registered: Oct 2009
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Where did all this change of meaning start? The Old Testament is much older than the new. At what point in history did someone come in and distort the meaning. Who is responsible?
Well, in terms of names, there are no names in the underlying text of the Bible. I can get tho this in detail later.
But, it appears to me that the Hesiod Theogony, for example...
Was merely an ancient Greek 2700 years ago practicing writing the famous story of the genesis of the ancient Egyptian farming in the Yafo/Dead Sea region of Lower Egypt
At the same time, the person was honing the ability to write Egyptian hieroglyphs in the Greek style and show proficiency in the Egyptian hieroglyphic vocabulary
And that person was likely not the one who mistranslated it into religion
There are many reasons I assume this. The primary reasons are...
The underlying text of the Hesiod Theogony matches the content and context of the underlying text of Genesis 1 through Genesis 4
The writer tells the same story, sometimes using different words, as if writing from memory --- not looking at the original text
The progression through the story is the same
For an example of the writer telling the same story in different words...
In the underlying text of Genesis 1, there is a crisis on the farm, because thieves have stolen so much, there is not enough to fill the order of a merchant who has arrived in his ships
But in the underlying text of the Hesiod Theogony, the writer gets into greater details, writing about a plot and describing the acts of the thieves in uprooting, tearing out suitable portions to carry away.
Or later...
In the underlying text of Genesis 2, when the ancient Egyptian military is first sent in to guard the farming region, a troop Commander is written as looking around from the ground
But in the underlying text of the Hesiod Theogony, it is written that a ship Admiral guards the farms from the harbor in his ship
If the Hesiod Theogony writer was looking directly at a copy of the story's text, there would not have been these alterations in the retelling of the story.
It is enough to retell a story in writing from memory. With the ability to write all that in some 1000 lines of text, the original writer could have simply written a religious story.
It doesn't make sense to write 1000 lines of text and then claim it says something else, when you have the ability to simply write a religious story. I've written and published 23 books, so I know how difficult it is to write.
That is in addition to curriculum I wrote in the 1990s that helped African American students learn about culture in cities of African countries, the Africa-In-Our-Schools National School Program. Each classroom curriculum set included a publication called Africa City View, games and activities, classroom excercies and a teacher's guide. Each African City View edition focused on the cities of a particular African country, taking a full 30 days to write and edit each one, including featuring up to 60 photos of daily life in the particular African country's cities.
But, a thief is good for stealing. A thief is too lazy to write 1000 lines of text. It is easier to simply plagiarize another writer's work.
My primary profession is as a product development consultant, specializing in the development of new products, marketing and research, so I know this all too well. I have seen firsthand the plagiarizing of my research and the the reverse-engineering of my own products.
Search my name and you will see a video of a guy in New York apologizing to me. He and his girlfriend republished the entire contents of two websites of mine into a book. I put the website up before the publishing of my first book and took it down immediately following, but he had already copied the entire two websites by that time.
So, I am like the original writer of the underlying text of the Hesiod Theogony. The guy in New York is like whatever ancient Greek mistranslated it into religion.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: At what point in history did someone come in and distort the meaning?
Well, we know it was in ancient times, because the same ancient Greek historian, Diodorus Siculus, who wrote Ethiopians founded ancient Egypt and hieroglyphic writing is Ethiopian, by 60BC had already examined the story of the Hesiod Theogony and other similar stories, calling them myths...
Yet, Diodorus does say it is myth what he writes about Ethiopians having founded ancient Egypt and the hieroglyphic writing...
quote:"They say also that the Egyptians are colonists sent out by the Ethiopians, Osiris having been the leader of the colony. And the larger part of the customs of the Egyptians are, they hold, Ethiopian, the colonists still preserving their ancient manners." Diodorus, book 3, 3:1 http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/3A*.html
quote:"… all men were glad to change their food, both because of the pleasing nature of the newly-discovered grains and because it seemed to their advantage to refrain from their butchery of one another." Diodorus, book 1:14-1 http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/1A*.html
quote:"… the shapes of their statues and the forms of their letters are Ethiopian; for of the two kinds of writing which the Egyptians have, that which is known as "popular" (demotic) is learned by everyone, while that which is called "sacred" is understood only by the priests of the Egyptians, who learn it from their fathers as one of the things which are not divulged, but among the Ethiopians everyone uses these forms of letters… the Ethiopian writing which is called hieroglyphic among the Egyptians." Diodorus, book 3, 3:4-5, 4:1 http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/3A*.html
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posted
So, my ancient Greek research partner in Budapest, Hungary, who has a PhD in Late Antique, Medieval and Early Modern Studies, found the transcription and current translation for the page you posted, Lioness.
posted
I utilize a number of programs to organize the data during retranslations, primarily Microsoft Notepad, Microsoft Word and Microsoft Excel.
Additionally, to reverse the direction of Hebrew and Aramaic text, I utilize a Windows 7 computer, Microsoft Notepad and OpenOffice 4.1.1.
Below, I've used the Google Translator to do a rough translation of each word, and then Notepad, Word and Excel to put them side-by-side...
εκινηϲ = ekinis = by the way και = kai = and ελθω = eltho = come on ο = o = The ιϲ = is = i ειϲ = eis = ih την = tin = the οικια = oikia = house του = tou = of αρχοντοϲ = archontos = lord και = kai = and ϊδων = ïdon = hey τουϲ = tous = his αυλη = avli = courtyard
Understand that at this point, I have not yet analyzed the validity of any of the words, their transliterations nor their meanings. My first goal is to organize the currently accepted data.
Let's compare the above set of words, transliterations and meanings to see how they have combined it all into a translation...
And Jesus entered the house of the ruler (and saw the pipers and the multitude making a noise, and said:)
We can allow the Google Translator to provide a rough translation, since the Google Translator is not directly connected with either the translation itself nor religion...
εκινηϲ και ελθω ο ιϲ ειϲ την οικια του αρχοντοϲ και ϊδων τουϲ αυλη
ekinis kai eltho o is eis tin oikia tou archontos kai ïdon tous avli
he and I come to his nobleman's house and his own courtyard
Posts: 751 | From: Los Angeles | Registered: Oct 2009
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quote:Originally posted by AncientGebts: So, my ancient Greek research partner in Budapest, Hungary, who has a PhD in Late Antique, Medieval and Early Modern Studies, found the transcription and current translation for the page you posted, Lioness.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: So which codex or ancient written artifact is the farming one?
Lioness, the underlying text.
To be clear, using the above Google Translator example...
Underlying text = εκινηϲ και ελθω ο ιϲ ειϲ την οικια του αρχοντοϲ και ϊδων τουϲ αυλη
Transliteration = ekinis kai eltho o is eis tin oikia tou archontos kai ïdon tous avli
Translation = he and I come to his nobleman's house and his own courtyard
The underlying text is independent from both the transliteration and the translation. It exists on its own, not influenced by the subsequent transliteration or translation.
The underlying text stands on its own for anyone to translate. Even you.
I say underlying text because it underlies any and all subsequent transliterations and translations, both of which can be done with biases. The underlying text is the unprocessed text.
Therefore...
The underlying text is comparable to fresh milk squeezed from a cow's udder
The transliteration is comparable to the milk homogenized
The translation is comparable to packaged milk made available in the store for consumer consumption
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posted
interestingly, the ending is on the page you posted, Lioness...
and saw the pipers and the multitude making a noise, and said:
ταϲ = tas = tee και = kai = and τον = ton = him οχλον = ochlon = pretty θορυβουμενον = thoryvoumenon = we make noise
Division of words partialy fragmented: ταϲ και τον οχλον = tas kai ton ochlon = and the fog θορυβουμενον = thoryvoumenon = we make noise
Division of words all together: ταϲ και τον οχλον θορυβουμενον tas kai ton ochlon thoryvoumenon and the noise we get
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posted
Aside from the obvious mistranslations in their version, I can see a common word in my Hesiod Theogony and Bible retranslations. Here in the Codex Sinaiticus...
ἀρχ (ἀρχώμεθ), in the underlying text of the Hesiod Theogony. ἀρχώμεθ is two separate words, dividing as follows
ἀρχώ = አለቃ = aleqa = chief
μεθ = ሜዳ = mae'da = field (farm)
To process αρχοντοϲ from the Codex Sinaiticus, we first separate the component words...
αρχο = አለቃ = aleqa = chief
ντο = ሜዳ = mae'da = field (farm)
ϲ = እዚኣ = izea = this
Same word אלוה in the underlying text throughout the Bible... הארץ אלוה ברא (Genesis 1:1)
ברא = frae = production
אלוה = አለቃ = aleqa = chief
את = እታ = ita = that
הארץ = እርሻ = irsha = farm
The same word in the underlying text of the so-called New Testament is ܐܠܗܐ (አለቃ/aleqa/chief) in the Aramaic Peshitta.
Posts: 751 | From: Los Angeles | Registered: Oct 2009
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: If what I posted "Codex Sinaiticus is filled with errors"
I didn't say it was filled with errors. That is a quote from the British Museum. They are only claiming errors, because that's the only way they can justify it saying what they allege.
I say the translation of it is a mistranslation -- filled with mistranslations of words.
I'm happy to retranslate from the text as it is written. And I'm happy to assume the original writer did not make errors.
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posted
So not only do we have the farm and the production chief, but the granary, too. Posts: 751 | From: Los Angeles | Registered: Oct 2009
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Here's where the vowels come in. They are often necessary to help match words that may only be different in the vowel pronunciation.
The word οικια is not the place, because it is already established that the place is the farm granary. So, οικια is what occurs between merchants and the farmers...
posted
That means, in a single sentence that you chose yourself, Lioness, we have...
The farm
The production chief
The granary
Transaction negotiation
If I had chosen this sentence, you would have said I purposely selected one that would fit my theory.
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posted
The word ελθω is a little confusing, but in Tigrigna the meaning is cleared up.
I will say this word is basically correct, because even with mistranslations, both intentional and innocent ones, they leave many words with their correct translations...
I would say dismount if I saw a vehicle or horse. As I continue the retranslation, I might see something more to help clarify.
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posted
The first word, εκινη ϲ, indicates when the event is occuring. First divide the word into it's components..
εκινη ϲ
εκινη = ekini = at the same time = አሁን = ahun = now ϲ = እዚኣ = izea = this
So then, the word is now...
ahun (አሁን) now (Amarigna)
In the underlying text of the Bible, I have seen עתה/hje/ሕጂ/"right now,"in the underlying text of Genesis 3:22 for example to indicate when something is happening.
Both words indicate that the event was being recorded in real-time...
hji (ሕጂ) right away, right now, now (adv.) (Tigrigna)
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: If what I posted "Codex Sinaiticus is filled with errors"
I didn't say it was filled with errors. That is a quote from the British Museum. They are only claiming errors, because that's the only way they can justify it saying what they allege.
I say the translation of it is a mistranslation -- filled with mistranslations of words.
I'm happy to retranslate from the text as it is written. And I'm happy to assume the original writer did not make errors.
Can you first just translate several complete verses of this Codex Sinaiticus, Matthew verse in English ?
First please show several of the same verses from Matthew that are on the upper left of the page I posted (i'm not going to say which verses are shown, I know however) but first please show them in the New Standard American version
One of my Eritrean friends here in Los Angeles only speaks Tigrigna. When she wants to come over and talk to me, or wants me to go over to her place to talk, she calls me on the phone and says, "Legesse, zereba."
zereba (ዘረባ) talk, speech (n.) (Tigrigna)
It makes me so happy to see this word. Posts: 751 | From: Los Angeles | Registered: Oct 2009
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posted
It doesn't make sense. You have this radical idea that the bible is about farming
and instead of showing a number of verses of the standard translation and then for comparison the same in your re-translations you expect people to start looking at individual words.
It like if some president made a speech in a language you didn't know and you asked somebody what they said and the person started talking about individual words he used
It seems like you're hiding something
Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Translation "Now and occurring ο it is ειϲ good negotiation farm chief and guest τουϲ granary ταϲ and delicious grain discussion υμενον"
Those are the words in the sentence, so far. So, that's the translation... at least something like that.
Posts: 751 | From: Los Angeles | Registered: Oct 2009
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You are also showing referring to Henry Tompkins Anderson's translation of the Sinaiticus of 1866.
Codex Sinaiticus: The H. T. Anderson New Testament (from the original Greek)
Matthew 9:23 And Jesus entered the house of the ruler and saw the pipers and the multitude making a noise, and said:
24 Withdraw, for the maid is not dead, but sleeps. And they derided him.
25 But when the multitude had been put out, he went in and took her hand, and the maid arose.
26 And the fame of this went forth into that whole land.
27 And as Jesus was passing by thence, two blind men followed him, crying out and saying: Have mercy on us, Son of David.
28 And after he had come into the house, the blind men came to him; and Jesus said to them: Believe you that I am able to do this? They said to him: Yes, Lord.
29 Then he touched their eyes, saying: According to your faith be it done to you.
30 And their eyes were opened. And Jesus charged them in a threatening manner, saying: See that no one know it.
31 But they went out and published him abroad in all that land.
32 But as they were going out, behold, they brought to him a man dumb possessed with a demon.
33 And after the demon had been cast out, the dumb man spoke. And the multitudes were astonished, saying: Never did it appear thus in Israel. _________________________________
.
.
Let's also compare it to the New American Standard>
Matthew 9:23-33 New American Standard Bible (NASB) 23 When Jesus came into the [a]official’s house, and saw the flute-players and the crowd in noisy disorder,
24 He said, “Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep.” And they began laughing at Him.
25 But when the crowd had been sent out, He entered and took her by the hand, and the girl [b]got up.
26 This news spread throughout all that land.
27 As Jesus went on from there, two blind men followed Him, crying out, “Have mercy on us, Son of David!”
28 When He entered the house, the blind men came up to Him, and Jesus *said to them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?” They *said to Him, “Yes, Lord.”
29 Then He touched their eyes, saying, “[c]It shall be done to you according to your faith.”
30 And their eyes were opened. And Jesus sternly warned them: “See that no one knows about this!”
31 But they went out and spread the news about Him throughout all that land.
32 As they were going out, a mute, demon-possessed man [d]was brought to Him.
33 After the demon was cast out, the mute man spoke; and the crowds were amazed, and were saying, “Nothing like this has [e]ever been seen in Israel.”
______________________________
So please give your translation of a few or all of the above verses please just the continuous translation in English in the same numbered format above before we deal any added explanation of changes you may have made and why you made them
I first want to get the narrative meaning of your translation before the linguistic analysis methods and various details about words and so on, thanks
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posted
And furthermore, it does not say "Jesus," not even in the Codex Sinaiticus text.
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