posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

In Cameroon we find carriers of R1a.

.

---

^^^ Again charts but source of charts conveniently left out. Below the Berniell-Lee 2009 article called
"Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages"
(this is before the R1b branch was discovered by
Cruciani in 2010 - but we are talking about R1a at the moment )


.


.
____________________________________________


Fig 3
Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages
Gemma Berniell-Lee, Francesc Calafell, Elena Bosch, Evelyne Heyer, Lucas Sica, Patrick Mouguiama-Daouda, Lolke van der Veen, Jean-Marie Hombert, Lluis Quintana-Murci, David Comas Author Notes
Molecular Biology and Evolution, Volume 26, Issue 7, July 2009, Pages 1581–1589, https://doi.org/10.1093/molbev/msp069


^^ We have a study here on Gabon and Cameroon.
Notice in the small box, right center middle R1a
then in the big box, right lower center middle
R1a-SRY

so did the find R1a in Gabon and Cameroon??

If they did that would be pointed out and the researchers would be noted for discovering it.


Here's the article:

https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/26/7/1581/1123707


Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages
Gemma Berniell-Lee, Francesc Calafell, Elena Bosch, Evelyne Heyer, Lucas Sica, Patrick Mouguiama-Daouda, Lolke van der Veen, Jean-Marie Hombert, Lluis Quintana-Murci, David Comas Author Notes
Molecular Biology and Evolution, Volume 26, Issue 7, July 2009, Pages 1581–1589, https://doi.org/10.1093/molbev/msp069
Published: 15 April 2009 Article history

Abstract
The expansion of Bantu languages, which started around 5,000 years before present in west/central Africa and spread all throughout sub-Saharan Africa, may represent one of the major and most rapid demographic movements in the history of the human species. Although the genetic footprints of this expansion have been unmasked through the analyses of the maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA lineages, information on the genetic impact of this massive movement and on the genetic composition of pre-Bantu populations is still scarce.

Here, we analyze an extensive collection of Y-chromosome markers—41 single nucleotide polymorphisms and 18 short tandem repeats—in 883 individuals from 22 Bantu-speaking agriculturalist populations and 3 Pygmy hunter-gatherer populations from Gabon and Cameroon. Our data reveal a recent origin for most paternal lineages in west Central African populations most likely resulting from the expansion of Bantu-speaking farmers that erased the more ancient Y-chromosome diversity found in this area. However, some traces of ancient paternal lineages are observed in these populations, mainly among hunter-gatherers. These results are at odds with those obtained from mtDNA analyses, where high frequencies of ancient maternal lineages are observed, and substantial maternal gene flow from hunter-gatherers to Bantu farmers has been suggested. These differences are most likely explained by sociocultural factors such as patrilocality. We also find the intriguing presence of paternal lineages belonging to Eurasian haplogroup R1b1*, which might represent footprints of demographic expansions in central Africa not directly related to the Bantu expansion.
______________________


^^^ In this article R1b1* is mentioned 15 times
(this is a year before the particular clade of R1b1 was identified
R1b1a2 previously R1b1c
and now most commonly known as R-V88

But what about R1a?

R1a is not mentioned in the text at all

One of the authors of the article explains

quote:

---

in the manuscript of 2009 we used some published data to compare with ours.
In the Y-chromosome dataset generated in the manuscript, we did not find any R1a individual (a table with the individuals haplogroups might be found in the supplementary material provided).
It cannot discard that in some previously published data used for comparison in the manuscript R1a was present

---

And we can clearly see this lack of R1a in one of the other charts from the same article


figure 1
Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages
Gemma Berniell-Lee2009


Looking at the right of the chart we see the R1b recorded from their samples but no R1a

R1a was not found in Berniell-Lee's samples, it's that simple

It appears on the Figure 3 chart but that is an artifact of previously running the program.

Additionally once you find a particular haplogroup in Africa that does not instantly mean it originated there

Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

"R1a shows a strong correlation with Indo-European languages of Southern and Western Asia and Central and Eastern Europe"

---

quote:

---

We also find the intriguing presence of paternal lineages belonging to Eurasian haplogroup R1b1*, which might represent footprints of demographic expansions in central Africa not directly related to the Bantu expansion.

---

quote:

---

Cruciani et al18 foundthis paragroup (at that time defined as haplogroup 117, orR-M173 *( xSRY10831,M18,M73,M269)) to be present at high frequencies (up to 95%) in populations from northern Cameroon. The sameparagroup was only rarely observed in other sub-Saharan African regions, and not observed at all in western Eurasia.18

---

quote:

---

"deepest branching separates A1b from a monophyletic clade whose members (A1a, A2, A3, B, C, and R) all share seven mutually reinforcing derived mutations (five transitions and two transversions, all at non-CpG sites)."

---

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Word Origin and History for Bantu Expand
1862, applied to south African language group in the 1850s by German linguist Wilhelm Heinrich Immanuel Bleek (1827-1875), from native Ba-ntu "mankind," from ba-, plural prefix, + ntu "a man, person." Bantustan in a South African context is from 1949.

---

quote:

---

Bleek’s intellectual importance extends beyond his pioneering interests in Darwin’s theory of evolution and its application to the indigenous peoples in southern Africa. He was also responsible for setting up a system of classification based on language but one which intersected closely with race. This system of classification was based on clear distinctions between Bantu, Hottentot and Bushmen linguistic types and proposed that the study of these primitive languages was of universal importance in so far as they held the key to the understanding of the historical evolution of the three major branches of language spoken worldwide.

[...]

Bleek elaborated his system of classification during the 1860s and early 1870s. He characterised both “Hottentot” and “Bantu”, a term he coined, as sex-denoting languages, but suggested that they were clearly structurally distinct in so far as “Bantu” languages were prefix-pronominal and “Hottentot” languages were suffix-pronominal. In other words, the pronouns in the “Bantu” languages are borrowed from derivative prefixes to the nouns, whilst the pronouns in the “Hottentot” languages are borrowed from the derivative suffixes to the nouns.29 It was on the basis of these structural features that Bleek regarded these languages as “primary forms” of two of the world’s major philological branches, accounting for three-fifths of the languages known on earth: “Kafir, as giving us the key to the great mass of kindred Negro (Prefix-pronominal) languages which fill almost the whole of South Africa and extend at least as far to the north-west as Sierra Leone; and the Hottentot, as exhibiting the most primitive form known of that large tribe of [Suffix-pronominal] languages which is distinguished by its Sex-denoting qualities, which fills North Africa, Europe and part of Asia, which includes the languages of the most highly cultivated

[...]

The connections Bleek established between the Bantu languages of southern Africa and those elsewhere in Africa are, as far as I am aware, relatively uncontroversial. Bleek’s hypothesis that the “Hottentot” language was a primary form of North African and Indo-European languages was more speculative and is seen by Dubow as an early expression of the pervasive Hamitic myth of African origins. Bleek had formulated his theories about the North African origins of “Hottentot” languages well before arriving in South Africa. Thornton indicates that his doctoral study compared the gender systems of “Kafir”, Herero, Sechuana and Nama with Berber, Galla, Coptic and Ancient Egyptian in order to substantiate claims that the Nama (“Hottentot”) language was related to North African languages.31

The peculiar characteristics which distinguish the Hottentots and Bushmen from the other South African nations, are such as range them with the nations of Northern Africa and Western Asia, as the Egyptians, the Semitic tribes and their widespread North African relations (e.g. the Tuarick, Galla &c) and probably also the Indo-European or Arian nations. ... Since the Hottentots ... have in general retained, most faithfully, the primitive and original state of their race, in customs, manners, language &c, a study of their peculiarities must be regarded as eminently important, nay, indispensible for attaining a knowledge of the pre-historical condition and unrecorded history of their kindred nations; and as these comprise, in many cases, some of the most advanced and civilised nations, should we not be entitled to infer that such researches, if once properly made, will prove of great interest for the history of mankind in general?

[...]

Bleek’s active involvement in an anthropometric project initiated by Thomas Huxley, one of Britain’s leading anthropologists and proponents of evolution also provides evidence of his scientific racism and undermines the romantic image of Bleek presented by San scholarship. This aspect of Bleek’s research has been documented in Michael Godby’s exciting article in the Miscast edition, which provides a more balanced and critical perspective on Bleek.37

A few interesting notes, you probably will embrace:

• Bleek’s writings that we see the beginnings of the shift towards the structures of thought that informed the intellectual racism in modern South Africa: its evolutionary assumptions and ideas of rigidly demarcated stages of human development, physical as well as cultural.

• It also attempts to begin to provide a bridge between my own work on racial ideology in the first half of the nineteenth century and Saul Dubow’s detailed study of scientific racism in South Africa in the early twentieth century.

• He explicitly expressed an interest in exploring the links between the language of the Bushman and the communication of primates and emphasised such links in his private correspondence and evolutionary study On the Origin of Language. It is arguably in Bleek’s writings that we see the beginnings of the shift towards the structures of thought that informed the intellectual racism in modern South Africa: its evolutionary assumptions and ideas of rigidly demarcated stages of human development, physical as well as cultural.

---

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
R1a shows a strong correlation with Indo-European languages of Southern and Western Asia and Central and Eastern Europe

While populations in the Cameroon Chad basin where found to have a clade of R1b believed to have originated in Africa R-V88 mainly around the Chad Cameroon basin and rare occurances R-M269 found in some Berber populations R1a has not been found this far.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

In Cameroon we find carriers of R1a.

..........


Looking at the right of the chart we see the R1b recorded from their samples but no R1a.....

R1a was not found in Berniell-Lee's samples, it's that simple

It appears on the Figure 3 chart but that is an artifact of previously running the program.

Additionally once you find a particular haplogroup in Africa that does not instantly mean it originated there

---

Posts: 49 | From: Germany | Registered: Oct 2015  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
real expert, please correct the quoting. My comment >

"Looking at the right of the chart we see the R1b recorded from their samples but no R1a."

that comment goes under the other branch chart not the one you have up

and the topic here is R1a (lack of) not R1b

---

Posts: 49 | From: Germany | Registered: Oct 2015  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
The entire "Bantu theory is already gobbledegook" racist rhetoric. Propped up by a racist named: "Wilhelm Heinrich Immanuel Bleek". What good can come for people who copy this type of language and scientific racist theory?


And no, I am not blaming you, Lioness.


The man behind the word (and actions):

Wilhelm Heinrich Immanuel Bleek

quote:

---

Word Origin and History for Bantu Expand
1862, applied to south African language group in the 1850s by German linguist Wilhelm Heinrich Immanuel Bleek (1827-1875), from native Ba-ntu "mankind," from ba-, plural prefix, + ntu "a man, person." Bantustan in a South African context is from 1949.

---

https://www.etymonline.com/word/Bantu

quote:

---

Bleek’s intellectual importance extends beyond his pioneering interests in Darwin’s theory of evolution and its application to the indigenous peoples in southern Africa. He was also responsible for setting up a system of classification based on language but one which intersected closely with race. This system of classification was based on clear distinctions between Bantu, Hottentot and Bushmen linguistic types and proposed that the study of these primitive languages was of universal importance in so far as they held the key to the understanding of the historical evolution of the three major branches of language spoken worldwide.

[...]

Bleek elaborated his system of classification during the 1860s and early 1870s. He characterised both “Hottentot” and “Bantu”, a term he coined, as sex-denoting languages, but suggested that they were clearly structurally distinct in so far as “Bantu” languages were prefix-pronominal and “Hottentot” languages were suffix-pronominal. In other words, the pronouns in the “Bantu” languages are borrowed from derivative prefixes to the nouns, whilst the pronouns in the “Hottentot” languages are borrowed from the derivative suffixes to the nouns.29 It was on the basis of these structural features that Bleek regarded these languages as “primary forms” of two of the world’s major philological branches, accounting for three-fifths of the languages known on earth: “Kafir, as giving us the key to the great mass of kindred Negro (Prefix-pronominal) languages which fill almost the whole of South Africa and extend at least as far to the north-west as Sierra Leone; and the Hottentot, as exhibiting the most primitive form known of that large tribe of [Suffix-pronominal] languages which is distinguished by its Sex-denoting qualities, which fills North Africa, Europe and part of Asia, which includes the languages of the most highly cultivated

[...]

The connections Bleek established between the Bantu languages of southern Africa and those elsewhere in Africa are, as far as I am aware, relatively uncontroversial. Bleek’s hypothesis that the “Hottentot” language was a primary form of North African and Indo-European languages was more speculative and is seen by Dubow as an early expression of the pervasive Hamitic myth of African origins. Bleek had formulated his theories about the North African origins of “Hottentot” languages well before arriving in South Africa. Thornton indicates that his doctoral study compared the gender systems of “Kafir”, Herero, Sechuana and Nama with Berber, Galla, Coptic and Ancient Egyptian in order to substantiate claims that the Nama (“Hottentot”) language was related to North African languages.31

The peculiar characteristics which distinguish the Hottentots and Bushmen from the other South African nations, are such as range them with the nations of Northern Africa and Western Asia, as the Egyptians, the Semitic tribes and their widespread North African relations (e.g. the Tuarick, Galla &c) and probably also the Indo-European or Arian nations. ... Since the Hottentots ... have in general retained, most faithfully, the primitive and original state of their race, in customs, manners, language &c, a study of their peculiarities must be regarded as eminently important, nay, indispensible for attaining a knowledge of the pre-historical condition and unrecorded history of their kindred nations; and as these comprise, in many cases, some of the most advanced and civilised nations, should we not be entitled to infer that such researches, if once properly made, will prove of great interest for the history of mankind in general?

[...]

Bleek’s active involvement in an anthropometric project initiated by Thomas Huxley, one of Britain’s leading anthropologists and proponents of evolution also provides evidence of his scientific racism and undermines the romantic image of Bleek presented by San scholarship. This aspect of Bleek’s research has been documented in Michael Godby’s exciting article in the Miscast edition, which provides a more balanced and critical perspective on Bleek.37

A few interesting notes, you probably will embrace:

• Bleek’s writings that we see the beginnings of the shift towards the structures of thought that informed the intellectual racism in modern South Africa: its evolutionary assumptions and ideas of rigidly demarcated stages of human development, physical as well as cultural.

• It also attempts to begin to provide a bridge between my own work on racial ideology in the first half of the nineteenth century and Saul Dubow’s detailed study of scientific racism in South Africa in the early twentieth century.

• He explicitly expressed an interest in exploring the links between the language of the Bushman and the communication of primates and emphasised such links in his private correspondence and evolutionary study On the Origin of Language. It is arguably in Bleek’s writings that we see the beginnings of the shift towards the structures of thought that informed the intellectual racism in modern South Africa: its evolutionary assumptions and ideas of rigidly demarcated stages of human development, physical as well as cultural.

---

~Andrew Bank University of the Western Cape
ANTHROPOLOGY, RACE AND EVOLUTION: RETHINKING THE LEGACY OF WILHELM BLEEK.

http://scnc.ukzn.ac.za/doc/SOC-cult/Race-Racism/Bank-A_Anthropology_race_evolution_Wilhelm_Bleek.pdf

---

Posts: 49 | From: Germany | Registered: Oct 2015  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
real expert, please correct the quoting. My comment >

"Looking at the right of the chart we see the R1b recorded from their samples but no R1a."

that comment goes under the other branch chart not the one you have up

and the topic here is R1a (lack of) not R1b

---

Posts: 49 | From: Germany | Registered: Oct 2015  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by real expert:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
real expert, please correct the quoting. My comment >

"Looking at the right of the chart we see the R1b recorded from their samples but no R1a."

that comment goes under the other branch chart not the one you have up

and the topic here is R1a (lack of) not R1b

---

Sorry, but how can I correct my comment with your quotes?

---

Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by real expert:
The term 'Bantu' or Abantu is the Zulu word for people. Nothing racist about it. Fact is there are Bantuid people that genetically cluster very close to each but are clearly distinct from indigenous East Africans like the Nilotes or the natives of South Africa, the San people. Bantu people were not indigenous to East or South Africa but originated in West Africa, Cameroon, and West Nigeria. In fact, prior to the Bantu expansion 3000 or 2000 years ago, East Africa was populated by Nilotic or Cushitic like people and South Africa was inhabitant by San people. However, Bantus are the most dominant and largest group in Africa similar to the Indo-Europeans in Europe. It's actually sad that some people treat the term "Bantu" as kinda of insult. Why?

---

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

Better yet delete all your posts in this thread. I just told Ish Gebor this thread is not about R-V88
or the term Bantu and you are keeping it up now.

This thread is about Clyde saying numerous times that the 2009 Berniell-Lee article showed Cameroonians
carrying R1a. The article is 11 years old and no articles since then have said R1a was discovered in Cameroonians either. - and even if they did that does not mean it originated there.

click here if you want to comment on the same article, open discussion thread on the article

Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansions

---

quote:

---

"deepest branching separates A1b from a monophyletic clade whose members (A1a, A2, A3, B, C, and R) all share seven mutually reinforcing derived mutations (five transitions and two transversions, all at non-CpG sites)."

---

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Dear Lioness, is it possible the CpG sites had already "snippets" (nucleotide) of R1a that have been lost, during a mutation?

---

Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Dear Lioness, is it possible the CpG sites had already "snippets" (nucleotide) of R1a that have been lost, during a mutation?

---

anything possible but this is about test evidence

---

Do you feel the paper by Fulvio Cruciani "A Revised Root for the Human Y Chromosomal Phylogenetic Tree: The Origin of Patrilineal Diversity in Africa", is tested evidence?

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Do you feel the paper by Fulvio Cruciani "A Revised Root for the Human Y Chromosomal Phylogenetic Tree: The Origin of Patrilineal Diversity in Africa", is tested evidence?

---

Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Do you feel the paper by Fulvio Cruciani "A Revised Root for the Human Y Chromosomal Phylogenetic Tree: The Origin of Patrilineal Diversity in Africa", is tested evidence?

---

No, the article by Fulvio Cruciani is not evidence R1a originates in Africa

---

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
R1a shows a strong correlation with Indo-European languages of Southern and Western Asia and Central and Eastern Europe

While populations in the Cameroon Chad basin where found to have a clade of R1b believed to have originated in Africa R-V88 mainly around the Chad Cameroon basin and rare occurances R-M269 found in some Berber populations R1a has not been found this far.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

In Cameroon we find carriers of R1a.

.

---

^^^ Again charts but source of charts conveniently left out. Below the Berniell-Lee 2009 article called
"Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages"
(this is before the R1b branch was discovered by
Cruciani in 2010 - but we are talking about R1a at the moment )


.


.
____________________________________________


Fig 3
Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages
Gemma Berniell-Lee, Francesc Calafell, Elena Bosch, Evelyne Heyer, Lucas Sica, Patrick Mouguiama-Daouda, Lolke van der Veen, Jean-Marie Hombert, Lluis Quintana-Murci, David Comas Author Notes
Molecular Biology and Evolution, Volume 26, Issue 7, July 2009, Pages 1581–1589, https://doi.org/10.1093/molbev/msp069


^^ We have a study here on Gabon and Cameroon.
Notice in the small box, right center middle R1a
then in the big box, right lower center middle
R1a-SRY

so did the find R1a in Gabon and Cameroon??

If they did that would be pointed out and the researchers would be noted for discovering it.


Here's the article:

https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/26/7/1581/1123707


Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages
Gemma Berniell-Lee, Francesc Calafell, Elena Bosch, Evelyne Heyer, Lucas Sica, Patrick Mouguiama-Daouda, Lolke van der Veen, Jean-Marie Hombert, Lluis Quintana-Murci, David Comas Author Notes
Molecular Biology and Evolution, Volume 26, Issue 7, July 2009, Pages 1581–1589, https://doi.org/10.1093/molbev/msp069
Published: 15 April 2009 Article history

Abstract
The expansion of Bantu languages, which started around 5,000 years before present in west/central Africa and spread all throughout sub-Saharan Africa, may represent one of the major and most rapid demographic movements in the history of the human species. Although the genetic footprints of this expansion have been unmasked through the analyses of the maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA lineages, information on the genetic impact of this massive movement and on the genetic composition of pre-Bantu populations is still scarce.

Here, we analyze an extensive collection of Y-chromosome markers—41 single nucleotide polymorphisms and 18 short tandem repeats—in 883 individuals from 22 Bantu-speaking agriculturalist populations and 3 Pygmy hunter-gatherer populations from Gabon and Cameroon. Our data reveal a recent origin for most paternal lineages in west Central African populations most likely resulting from the expansion of Bantu-speaking farmers that erased the more ancient Y-chromosome diversity found in this area. However, some traces of ancient paternal lineages are observed in these populations, mainly among hunter-gatherers. These results are at odds with those obtained from mtDNA analyses, where high frequencies of ancient maternal lineages are observed, and substantial maternal gene flow from hunter-gatherers to Bantu farmers has been suggested. These differences are most likely explained by sociocultural factors such as patrilocality. We also find the intriguing presence of paternal lineages belonging to Eurasian haplogroup R1b1*, which might represent footprints of demographic expansions in central Africa not directly related to the Bantu expansion.
______________________


^^^ In this article R1b1* is mentioned 15 times
(this is a year before the particular clade of R1b1 was identified
R1b1a2 previously R1b1c
and now most commonly known as R-V88

But what about R1a?

R1a is not mentioned in the text at all

One of the authors of the article explains

quote:

---

in the manuscript of 2009 we used some published data to compare with ours.
In the Y-chromosome dataset generated in the manuscript, we did not find any R1a individual (a table with the individuals haplogroups might be found in the supplementary material provided).
It cannot discard that in some previously published data used for comparison in the manuscript R1a was present

---

And we can clearly see this lack of R1a in one of the other charts from the same article


figure 1
Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages
Gemma Berniell-Lee2009


Looking at the right of the chart we see the R1b recorded from their samples but no R1a

R1a was not found in Berniell-Lee's samples, it's that simple

It appears on the Figure 3 chart but that is an artifact of previously running the program.

Additionally once you find a particular haplogroup in Africa that does not instantly mean it originated there

---

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Stop lying. just enlarge the page to 175-200 and you can clearly see that R1a exist in Africa

---

quote:

---

in the manuscript of 2009 we used some published data to compare with ours.
In the Y-chromosome dataset generated in the manuscript, we did not find any R1a individual (a table with the individuals haplogroups might be found in the supplementary material provided).
It cannot discard that in some previously published data used for comparison in the manuscript R1a was present

---

this is corroborated by the fact that if we look at figure 1, which is based on the sample
no R1a is showing but R1b and several other clades are.

Furthermore while R1b is mentioned numerous times in the text of the article R1a is not mentioned.
so the reason that R1a is in figure 3 is that it is just a remnant from other data put into the program

https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/26/7/1581/1123707

Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages

___________________

and we can clearly see from the supplement also

https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/26/7/1581/1123707#supplementary-data




File 004

this is why since 2009 nobody has said that this article recorded R1a in Cameroon

you Clyde Winters are the only one

and you are doing it to try to trick people.

I thought we agreed you would stop making up stuff

Again>

we did not find any R1a individual (a table with the individuals haplogroups might be found in the supplementary material provided).

Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Stop lying. just enlarge the page to 175-200 and you can clearly see that R1a exist in Africa

---

quote:

---

In order to establish the genetic relationships between west Central African samples and the rest of the sub-Saharan continent, a CA was performed (fig. 3).

The estimated expansion time for the B2b network was 11,000 years (SD 9.0), with haplotypes found in Bantu agriculturalists lying at the tips of the tree (supplementary fig. 3, Supplementary Material online) and showing lower STR diversity (8.83 ± 5.17) than those found in Pygmies (9.84 ± 4.64).


FIG. 3



CA based on Y-chromosome haplogroup frequencies Diamonds represent Y-chromosome haplogroups named after Karafet et al. (2008) and show the last derived mutation typed within the Y-chromosome phylogeny. Triangles, squares, and circles represent population samples classified by linguistic/ethnic groups: Afro-Asiatic, Nilo-Saharan, Khoisan, Pygmy, and Niger-Congo (Bantu and non-Bantu). Population abbreviations are as shown in supplementary table 2, Supplementary Material online.

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:



^^ We have a study here on Gabon and Cameroon.
Notice in the small box, right center middle R1a
then in the big box, right lower center middle
R1a-SRY

so did the find R1a in Gabon and Cameroon??

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Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^ yes that is figure 3 which I already showed in opening post and enlarged it in the second image you are just enlarging it more.

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:



^^ We have a study here on Gabon and Cameroon.
Notice in the small box, right center middle R1a
then in the big box, right lower center middle
R1a-SRY

so did the find R1a in Gabon and Cameroon??

---

I said R1a is on this chart in the opening post and I have explained despite the way the programming produced that chart no R1a was found in any individual in the study by Berniell-Lee 2009
This can be verified by the text and supplement, no mention of R1a in any of the samples, however R1b mentioned 15 times

Additionally finding a haplogroup in a population does not it originates in that population

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Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Stop lying. just enlarge the page to 175-200 and you can clearly see that R1a exist in Africa

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Is this the part you are referring at?

quote:

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In order to establish the genetic relationships between west Central African samples and the rest of the sub-Saharan continent, a CA was performed (fig. 3).

The estimated expansion time for the B2b network was 11,000 years (SD 9.0), with haplotypes found in Bantu agriculturalists lying at the tips of the tree (supplementary fig. 3, Supplementary Material online) and showing lower STR diversity (8.83 ± 5.17) than those found in Pygmies (9.84 ± 4.64).


FIG. 3



CA based on Y-chromosome haplogroup frequencies Diamonds represent Y-chromosome haplogroups named after Karafet et al. (2008) and show the last derived mutation typed within the Y-chromosome phylogeny. Triangles, squares, and circles represent population samples classified by linguistic/ethnic groups: Afro-Asiatic, Nilo-Saharan, Khoisan, Pygmy, and Niger-Congo (Bantu and non-Bantu). Population abbreviations are as shown in supplementary table 2, Supplementary Material online.

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Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^ yes that is figure 3 which I already showed in opening post and enlarged it in the second image you are just enlarging it more.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:



^^ We have a study here on Gabon and Cameroon.
Notice in the small box, right center middle R1a
then in the big box, right lower center middle
R1a-SRY

so did the find R1a in Gabon and Cameroon??

---

I said R1a is on this chart in the opening post and I have explained despite the way the programming produced that chart no R1a was found in any individual in the study by Berniell-Lee 2009
This can be verified by the text and supplement, no mention of R1a in any of the samples, however R1b mentioned 15 times

Additionally finding a haplogroup in a population does not it originates in that population

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The major carriers of R1a are Dravidian speakers. The Dravidians came from Africa. Tamil, a Dravidian language is still spoken in Cameroon. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWyAYGlFZjk

.
This is further support for the African origin of R1.

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^ yes that is figure 3 which I already showed in opening post and enlarged it in the second image you are just enlarging it more.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:



^^ We have a study here on Gabon and Cameroon.
Notice in the small box, right center middle R1a
then in the big box, right lower center middle
R1a-SRY

so did the find R1a in Gabon and Cameroon??

---

I said R1a is on this chart in the opening post and I have explained despite the way the programming produced that chart no R1a was found in any individual in the study by Berniell-Lee 2009
This can be verified by the text and supplement, no mention of R1a in any of the samples, however R1b mentioned 15 times

Additionally finding a haplogroup in a population does not it originates in that population

---

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB] Lioness, Clyde is mistaken in a lot of things so why are you wasting your time chasing him around this forum??

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Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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"A late Pleistocene-early Holocene northward migration (from Africa to the Levant and to Anatolia) of these populations has been hypothesized from skeletal data (Angel 1972, 1973; Brace 2005) and from archaeological data, as indicated by the probable Nile Valley origin of the "Mesolithic" (epi-Paleolithic) Mushabi culture found in the Levant (Bar Yosef 1987). This migration finds some support in the presence in Mediterranean populations (Sicily, Greece, southern Turkey, etc.; Patrinos et al.; Schiliro et al. 1990) of the Benin sickle cell haplotype. This haplotype originated in West Africa and is probably associated with the spread of malaria to southern Europe through an eastern Mediterranean route (Salares et al. 2004) following the expansion of both human and mosquito populations brought about by the advent of the Neolithic transition (Hume et al 2003; Joy et al. 2003; Rich et al 1998).

This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005).

In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al 2005), in concordance with a process of demic diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994)." 

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged |