posted
We believe origin of Ancient Egyptians was purely Egyptian based on discovery made by British Egyptologist Flinders Petrie at Naqada, says renowned Egyptologis
orld-renowned Egyptologist Zahi Hawass has put to bed Afrocentric claims that the Ancient Egyptians were African, saying such allegations are not true at all.
Speaking to Daily News Egypt in an interview, Hawass noted that there is, however, evidence of the Kushites who ruled Egypt during the 25th Dynasty. He noted that it is from this period that the belief of Ancient Egypt’s African origins grew.
“If we look at Ancient Egypt, there are two theories, with one theory being that their origin was either from Semites (descendants of Shem, son of Noah) or Hamites (descendants of Ham, son of Noah), with input from Palestine and from Africa based on the faces of the people from the Delta and Upper Egypt,” he explained.
He explained that Cheikh Anta Diop is the one who really pushed the Afrocentric theory that the origin of the Ancient Egyptians was black.
“We believe that the origin of Ancient Egyptians was purely Egyptian based on the discovery made by British Egyptologist Flinders Petrie at Naqada, and this is why the Ancient Egyptian civilisation did not occur in Africa, it occurred only here,” Hawass said.
Notably, the claim that the Ancient Egyptians had black skin has become a cornerstone of Afrocentric historiography.
Mainstream scholars hold that kemet, a word frequently used for Ancient Egypt, means “the black land” or “the black place”.
It refers to the fertile black soil that was washed down from Central Africa by the annual River Nile inundation
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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he has always maintained this and always will, probably regardless of the opposing evidence he is presented
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posted
How can anyone take Hawass seriously? It's like the Euros saying they are the Native Americans and the Euros that came later claiming that folks looking like them was always there.
It's amazing that some people have the ability to change geography without actually physically moving land.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Yup Hawass is an anti-African bigot. who imagines Egyptians sprung from Nile silt with no human antecedents like all other peoples on the planet.
Current science knows immediately before the Egyptian state formed, migrants entered the Nile from every available aspect point. Mainly Sahrans of two stocks Sudanese and Libyan who were supplemented with Levantines. People also moved north directly from Sudan's Nile to Egypt's Nile.
Then, what nonsense to assign Sam and Hham as historical entities.
Amazing how the article uses the very term of this old thread
Diop pushed no afrocentric theory. Diop analyzed materials at his disposal for his conclusions decades before the term had any currency. Petri work is over 100 years old, written 30 years after American slavery ended.
Volney was no Egyptologist He was not black He was not African Volney was explicit.
quote:
quote:Originally posted 05 June, 2005 by Atheist:
In the late Eighteenth century a frenchman by the name of Count Constantine de Volney (1757-1820) wrote a wonderful history book entitled, The Ruins of Empire, which described his journeys in Egypt between 1783 and 1785. This book became a bestseller in France and the demand for it was so great that an English version was printed and an "American Edition" became available in the mid 1790's. Volney's description of the ancient monuments were fair and objective. He described the appearance of the sphinx as "Typically negro in all its features." To some, Volney's descriptions were too accurate, and they had to be "modified." For example. in deference to the American attitude regarding people of African descent, British editors decided to omit several lines of text from pages 15, 16 and 17 in the American edition of "Ruins of Empire." One specific quotation described the ancient kingdoms of Ethiopia and the Egyptian city of Thebes. Another edited statement which described the people of kemet read: . There are a people, now forgotten, who discovered, while others were yet barbarians, the elements of the arts and sciences. A race of men, now ejected from society for their sable skin and frizzy hair, founded on the study of the laws of nature, those civil and religious systems which still govern the Universe.
Volney discovered this glaring omission only after he had mastered the English language, and he forbade the future sale of his work until such time as it could be published in it's entirety. This act of censorship certainly was not an isolated incident; it was representative of a clear and consistent pattern of covering up and denying African historical accomplishments. The gross misrepresentations of Nile Valley history have been referred to as a "Stolen Legacy," and has been and continues to be perpetuated by many "learned scholars" for hundreds of years.
[This message has been edited by Atheist (edited 05 June 2005).]
[This message has been edited by Atheist (edited 05 June 2005).]
F Afrocentricism.
The facts on the ground are enough. No ethnocentric ideology needed.
ES been refuting that Hawass nonsense ever since ever since.
posted
Egyptology has been built on saying this since the founding of this so-called discipline. It isn't about facts, nor about science, but blatant lies and deception.
Always has been and always will be.
Notice that he doesn't even say "black" as opposed to African. Which is what these people have to say because if they say African, then the question becomes how can they be African but not black?
Not to mention since when did modern Egypt care about the ancient past? They sure didn't care about it in the 1700s and 1800s when Europeans invaded and took most of the artifacts. So who are they kidding? This is only meant to please tourists and travelers from Europe. Egypt is an Arab republic and Arabs don't see ancient Egypt as "Arab history". This is complete and utter nonsense. Since the numerous invasions and colonization by various European powers explicitly for the purposes of stealing ancient African history, the country see ancient Egypt as an important part of their economy, so of course they will say this.
But him saying this makes it more obvious that these people are liars. Ancient Kemet, not "Egypt" is 100% in Africa along with the Nile so they would have to explain how it became populated by Non Africans. Such a statement is so blatantly false that it is funny he would openly state it so bluntly. It makes it obvious that Egyptology as a whole is racist and pseudo-scientific.
quote: “We believe that the origin of Ancient Egyptians was purely Egyptian based on the discovery made by British Egyptologist Flinders Petrie at Naqada, and this is why the Ancient Egyptian civilisation did not occur in Africa, it occurred only here,” Hawass said.
Which means that he and Egyptology as a body believe in Petries "Dynastic Race Theory" which means that non Africans settled the Nile and pushed all the Africans out to create the civilization. But the kicker is that Naqada is deep in the South of Egypt so why would non Africans appear there first but nowhere else? And what about the 10,000 years of history along the Nile before that? So Nabta Playa, Wadi Halfa, and all these other ancient sites before that don't count huh? In order for what he said to be true all those other sites from before the predynastic which are much further South IN AFRICA would somehow have to be seen as separate history from "Egypt". For example what petrie found at Naqada was pottery and some burials. The oldest pottery on the Nile Valley is found to the South in the Khartoum Mesolithic. Not only that, but the "Egyptian" Nile Valley doesn't have much in terms of artifacts from the Mesolithic or Early Neolithic. All of those sites are further South between Upper Egypt and Sudan....
quote: In comparison with the Predynastic, the Neolithic of Egypt is very poorly documented and is better known in the southern part of the Nile Valley: Sudan and the Western Deserts. In Egypt itself it was first defined, and is still best known, by Caton-Thompson’s (1934) work in the Fayum. Arkell’s (1949) work in the Sudan found much earlier evidence at Khartoum for pottery making communities. Despite the presence of pottery, however, the groups at Early Khartoum showed no evidence for domestication and as such are referred to in the literature as being part of the Khartoum Mesolithic. Radiocarbon dates provided by Hassan suggest that the Khartoum Mesolithic dates from roughly 7500 BCE to 6500 BCE (Hassan 1986: 88), although it has been suggested that it was particularly long-lived tradition that persisted until the fifth millennium BCE (Fuller and Smith 2004: 268–269). The Neolithic in Egypt is generally viewed to date to the fifth millennium BCE, the oldest sites dating to about 5230 ± 50 cal BCE, and the youngest c.4000 cal BCE (Hassan 1985: 106), although see Kobusiewicz et al. (2004).
Which obviously means the flow of culture and people came from the South (plus the Sahara) and hence why the civilization arose in the South. But that is just based on facts that "Egyptology" itself has published, including Petrie.
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World-renowned Egyptologist Zahi Hawass has put to bed Afrocentric claims that the Ancient Egyptians were African, saying such allegations are not true at all.
“If we look at Ancient Egypt, there are two theories, with one theory being that their origin was either from Semites (descendants of Shem, son of Noah) or Hamites (descendants of Ham, son of Noah), with input from Palestine and from Africa based on the faces of the people from the Delta and Upper Egypt,” he explained.
The vast majority of Egyptologists today don't say that there are currently two bible based theories under consideration to explain anything about Ancient Egypt
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Words from Petrie's mouth that the purpose of Egyptology is to expand Europe's history by documenting and extracting artifacts out of Africa... I guess Hawass agrees with this as well.
quote: It is now twenty-one years since I first began work in Egypt. Mariette then ruled, and this Fund was yet unborn. In those days the Pyramid of Khufu was our boundary of history, nothing whatever was known of the archaeology of Egypt as a comparative science, and no trace of Europe in Egypt was thought of, earlier than the Ptolomies. The situation now is completely different. The monumental history has been carried back to the very beginning of the written record, which has been entirely confirmed; and beyond all that, the whole course of the prehistoric civilization has been mapped out for perhaps two thousand years more completely than has been done for such ages in any other land. The archaeology is better known that than of the most familiar countries; not a vase or a bead, not an ornament or a carving, but what falls into place with known examples, and can be closely dated.
The connection with Europe has been led back to the beginning of Greek records, then to the Mykenean times, next to the XIIth Dynasty, and now even to the 1st Dynasty, and Egypt is the sounding line for the unmeasured abyss of European history. No such opening of new fields to the mind has come to pass since the days when the Renaissance scholars burst into the world of lost classical authors; even the surprising unfolding of Assyria and Babylonia lacks the historic completeness of the Egytpian record, and is still almost untouched in its archaeology and development. We cannot expect the next twenty-one years to be as potent as that which we have seen, for the great outlines are now laid down; but many a dim passage in the long course of the new century to fill in, as far as possible, the details of the picture which has been sketched in the last few years.
And there are a bunch more similar quotes from petrie in this document.
Such as:
quote: Now that we are no longer afraid of our own rashness in assigning anything to a date before the IVth Dynasty-- now that we can deal with th earliest periods, back to the first entry of agricultural man into Egypt, -- we can see more of the perspective of history. We see Paleolithic man scattering his massive flint weapons, until the age of Nile mud (beginning about 7 ,000 B.C.)made agriculture possible, and a Caucasian race ousted the Paleolithic folks, whose portraits were left us in the figures found in the earliest graves. We see this oldest race of man to have been of the Hottentot type, but even more hairy than the Hottentot, with the traces of his original northern habitation not yet wiped off by tropical suns. Then we see a rapidly rising civilisation already knowing metals linked with the modern Kabyle, both by bodily formation and by existing products. Next, after some dozen generations, we can trace strong Eastern or Semitic influence, which carried on this civilisation to a higher point in many respects ; and then decay set in , and the first cycle that we can trace was completed. The next cycle began with the entry of the Dynastic race from the Red Sea, possessing the elements of hieroglyphic writing, and far more artistic sense and power than the earlier people. In some three or four centuries they had gradually conquered and invaded all the races scattered through Egypt - long haired, short-haired, bearded and unbearded, clothed and unclothes,- and the first king of all Egypt, who founded his new capital at the mouth of the valley, was Mena.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: [QB] Words from Petrie's mouth that the purpose of Egyptology is to expand Europe's history by documenting and extracting artifacts out of Africa... I guess Hawass agrees with this as well.
No, Hawass is not a European nor does he talk about Egypt being a part of Europe
A Copt blogger writes:
quote: It is thus clear that Zahi Hawass was an Arab from the Arab tribe of Hasa in North Africa which itself is a distant branch of Banu Sulaym Arab tribe that originally inhabited Hijaz, in Arabia. Furthermore, his recent family only came to Egypt towards the end of the 18th century/beginning of the 19th century. Zahi Hawass has no roots in ancient Egypt, and cannot claim an ancient Egyptian ancestry. The Egyptian historian and expert in Arab genealogy is actually right.
The descendants of Banu Sulaym in Libya are currently known as Sa’ada (قبائل السعادي), and are divided into two main divisions: The Harabi (الحرابي) tribes, who secondarily descended from Harb ibn ‘Aqar (حرب بن عقار), and they consist of the Ubaydat (عبيدات, who descended from Idris, son of Harb ibn ‘Aqar), Bara’asa (براعصة) , Hasa (الحاسة,who descended from Hawass, son of Harb ibn ‘Aqar), Derasa (الدرساء,who descended from Idris, son of Harb ibn ‘Aqar) and Aylat Fayid (أولاد فايد,who descended from Fayid, son of Harb ibn ‘Aqar) tribes.
^ I don't know it's accurate as to his background or not, the details are hard to find
Hawass said in 2007:
"Egyptians are not Arabs and are not Africans despite the fact that Egypt is in Africa,"
"Tutankhamun was not black, and the portrayal of ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it,"
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posted
Petrie engaged in fierce controversies with the British Museum's Egyptology expert E. A. Wallis Budge, who contended that the religion of the Egyptians was not introduced by invaders, but was essentially identical to that of the people of northeastern and central Africa;
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posted
This man is gutter and he needs to show his lineage.
quote: A false Pharaoh. Illustration by Floc’h in The New Yorker (November 8, 2009)
Zahi Hawass (b. 1947) is an Egyptian archaeologist and he occupied for a considerable time the position of a Minister of State for Antiquities Affairs. The least that could be said about him is that he is a controversial man. Two good articles on that are to be found in Wikipedia and The New Yorker. But, here, I would like to focus on his claim to be of ancient Egypt as he presented himself as the right heir to the Pharaohs. The fact is that he belongs to an Arab tribe by the name of Hawass that emigrated from Syria to Egypt as explained in a book by Saad Abu Saif al-Houti (I publish below a snippet of the relevant section, p. 232):[1]
The book does not explain how and when they came to Egypt, but it seems that they also went to Libya.[2]
It is alright, and desirable, for any man to study Egyptology and work in archaeology but to claim that he represented the Pharaohs and that he is a son of ancient Egypt is nothing but cultural appropriation. Hawass’ roots are not Egyptian but Arab. And his cultural appropriation of the ancient Egyptian culture must be resented.
quote:EGYPTIAN ARCHEOLOGIST ZAHI HAWASS: A FALSE PHARAOH AND SHEIKH OF CULTURAL APPROPRIATION
CLAIMING ANCIENT EGYPTIAN ANESTRY WHEN YOU ARE NOT IS CULTURAL APPROPRIATION OF COPTIC IDENTITY
October 9, 2020
In a previous article, The Genealogy of Zahi Hawass: Arab And Not from Ancient Egypt (November 13, 2019), I wrote that Zahi Hawass (b. 1947), an Egyptian archaeologist, who occupied for a considerable time the position of Minister of State for Antiquities Affairs, claimed to be of ancient Egypt roots and that he presented himself as the right heir to the Pharaohs. I explained that he actually belonged the Arab tribe of Hawass that had emigrated from Syria to Egypt according to Saad Abu Saif al-Houti in his book, الموسوعة العلمية في أنساب القبائل العربية (2002), and I published a snippet of the relevant section (p. 232).
Hawass, who to say the least is a controversial figure in Egypt, is a showman and is accustomed to say things without any scientific evidence. In November 2019, he said in a lecture at Mansura University that the roots of [modern] Egyptians are Egyptian [meaning Pharaonic] and that they were not Arab or African. “We have unique origin, and we don’t have any connection with the Arabs or Africans,” he said. “The Egyptians are not Arabs but Pharaonic [people] speaking Arabic!” And in the best tradition of the subservient modern Egyptians, he added, “The Pharaonic monuments and engravings prove that the Army has protected Egypt in the last 5,000 years ago, and until today.”[1]
Hawass’ claim was met with an uproar by the Muslim Egyptians who thought he was denying the “Arabdom” of Egypt and the Egyptians. To them, this was also a betrayal of Islam.[2] The spectacle in Egyptian media was more than comic. One of the Egyptian historians and expert in Arab genealogy and heritage – a member of the union that includes the descendants of Prophet Muhammad in Egypt called ‘Ashraf’ –, Ahmad Shuqair, responded to Hawass by saying, “I defy Hawass to prove the lineage of any Egyptian family with the Pharaohs.” And he added that Hawass was ignorant of the science of genealogy and was not conversant in it at all.[3]
But Shuqair’s most interesting comment, which was said by him, according to the paper that published his response, with surprise and derision, “How could [Hawass] say that the Egyptians are Pharaonic when his own personal family has Arabic roots!”[4]
What does Shuqair say about the close family of Zahi Hawass? It came to Egypt from Algeria with the French Campaign in Egypt (1798-1801). The French recruited auxiliary soldiers from North Africa, and one of the men they recruited to fight with them was Mahmoud Hawass. This Hawass was the ancestor of Zaki and all the family of Hawass in Egypt. He was married to three women, and [after the withdrawal of Egypt] he remained in Egypt and traded in coal, even owning a platform (Platform 2) at the Port of Alexandria which was given his name. This Mahmoud Hawass, as Shuqair says, was responsible for recruiting soldiers for the French. The title of Hawass was given him because the word ‘hawass (حواس)’ means in Arabic ‘a person who calls for razzias (hostile raids)’.
Shuqair reveals to us that the family of Zahi Hawass is actually mentioned in The History of the Egyptian Tribes (تاريخ القبائل المصرية),[5] and that his genealogy goes back to the ancient Arab tribe of Banu Sulaym (بنو سليم) through a later branch of it called Hasa (الحاسة), who descended from one Hawass, son of Harb ibn ‘Aqar.
It is important to survey at this juncture the history of the Banu Sulaym tribe in order to see how their descendants, including Zaki Hawass, came to Egypt.
The Banu Sulaym (بنو سليم),[6] was a huge tribe that has several sub-tribes descended from it; and itself it forms part of the wider Arab tribal group of Qays (قيس). Before the appearance of Islam, Banu Sulaym lived mainly in the Hejaz, in the Arabian Peninsula. With the appearance of Muhammad in the seventh century, they fought against him first, only to be conquered by him and be made to convert to Islam before his death in 632 AD. They reverted to Paganism after Muhammad’s death, but again only to be forced by Muhammad’s first Caliph, Abu Bakr (632 – 644), to submit to Islam. With the second Caliph, ‘Umar (634 – 644), and the beginning of the invasions of neighbouring countries, they joined in the Islamic wars of conquests and established themselves in Syria, from which many of them moved to the northern part of Mesopotamia (Jazira). Some of them, however, remained in Hijaz, and these later merged with the Yemenite tribe of Banu Harb. Those who went to Syria and Iraq continued to participate in the frequent civil wars of Islam.
They remained in Syria and Mesopotamia until the 10th century, when, as a consequence of their support, together with the tribe of Banu Hilal, they gave to the Qarmatians (القرامطة) against the Fatimid Dynasty of Egypt, they were exiled en masse by the Fatimid Caliph al-Aziz (975 – 996) to Upper Egypt in order to keep them in check. Banu Hilal were also exiled to Upper Egypt.
They did not stay in Egypt, however, for a long time, for when Egypt was hit by a severe famine during the Caliphate of Al-Mustansir (1036 – 1094) that extended from 1065 to 1072, they left Egypt, with the tribe of Banu Hilal, and migrated to the Maghreb (North Africa to the west of Egypt), and settled particularly in the eastern part of Libya (Cyrenaica, برقة). Many of present-day Libyan Arab tribes in that area trace their roots to Banu Sulaym.
The descendants of Banu Sulaym in Libya are currently known as Sa’ada (قبائل السعادي), and are divided into two main divisions:
The Harabi (الحرابي) tribes, who secondarily descended from Harb ibn ‘Aqar (حرب بن عقار), and they consist of the Ubaydat (عبيدات, who descended from Idris, son of Harb ibn ‘Aqar), Bara’asa (براعصة) , Hasa (الحاسة,who descended from Hawass, son of Harb ibn ‘Aqar), Derasa (الدرساء,who descended from Idris, son of Harb ibn ‘Aqar) and Aylat Fayid (أولاد فايد,who descended from Fayid, son of Harb ibn ‘Aqar) tribes.
The Jabarina tribes who consist of the ‘Awaqir, Magharba, Majabira, Aryibat and Baraghith tribes. The Hasa (بني حواس), which is part of the Harabi larger group, has also three divisions who are concentrated in the towns and villages of Jebel Akhdar (الجبل الأخضر) in eastern Libya:
Galabidha (قلابطة) Shabariqa (شبارقة) Taj’aib (تجايب) In the nineteenth century, many of these Arab tribes, including the Hassa and Aylat Fayid migrated back to Egypt, and settled in various parts, including Alexandria, Fayum and Upper Egypt.
It is thus clear that Zahi Hawass was an Arab from the Arab tribe of Hasa in North Africa which itself is a distant branch of Banu Sulaym Arab tribe that originally inhabited Hijaz, in Arabia. Furthermore, his recent family only came to Egypt towards the end of the 18th century/beginning of the 19th century. Zahi Hawass has no roots in ancient Egypt, and cannot claim an ancient Egyptian ancestry. The Egyptian historian and expert in Arab genealogy is actually right.
It may be said that we as Copts should welcome any Egyptian who claims roots in ancient Egypt and denies his or her Arab identity. This may be true, and it may be politically useful, but it must be based on historical facts. If not, then it is sheer cultural appropriation. Whether it is Afrocentrism or the Arabs in Egypt who claim to be descendants of the Pharaohs or owners of its their great heritage, it must be resisted, for it’s the worst kind of cultural appropriation – it’s theft of identity from the Copts who are the only direct and purest descendants of the ancient Egyptians.
Why do we write about this? Because Zahi Hawass’ claim of ownership of the heritage of ancient Egypt is often repeated by many Egyptian Arabs, who, in my opinion, know that their claim is false, and are insincere about the identity they claim, but, nonetheless, use it for profit.
Note. The writer wants to assert that the national identity of an individual does not make him a great man or a lesser man. This is not about race but is about cultural appropriation. A good Arab is as good as a good Copt; and a bad Copt is as bad as a bad Arab. This is our Christian position on this matter. This also should not be taken as disrespect of Hawass as an Egyptologist.
[1] See Al-Masri al-Youm: زاهي حواس: المصريون ليسوا عربًا ولا أفارقة.. وعثرنا على بردية تشرح كيفية بناء الهرم by Ghada Abdel Hafiz (17 November 2019).
[2] See, e.g., Arabi21: أثري مصري ينزع عن المصريين عروبتهم.. كيف رد عليه التاريخ؟ by Muhammad Mu’ghawir (24 November 2019).
[3] See Sada Misr: الشريف احمد شقير يرد على الدكتور زاهى حواس ويتحداه ان يثبت اتصال نسب عائلة مصرية واحدة لنسب الفراعنة (14 November 2019).
[4] Ibid.
[5] I am not sure who is the author of this book, but I guess it is Salah Ta’ib, as he has a book by that title, which was published in 1974. I have not been able to get hold of it.
[6] For more on Banu Sulaym, read: Banu Sulaym in Wikipedia.
quote: The Hawazin (Arabic: هوازن / ALA-LC: Hawāzin) were an ancient Pre-Islamic Arab tribe considered to be the descendants of Hawazin son of Mansur son of Ikrimah son of Khasafah son of Qays ʿAylān son of Mudar son of Nizar son of Ma'ad son of Adnan son of Aa'd son of U'dad, a distant descendant of Qaydar son of Ismail son of Ibrahim.
quote: The Banu Sulaym (Arabic: بنو سليم ) were an Arab tribe that dominated part of the Hejaz in the pre-Islamic era. They maintained close ties with the Quraysh of Mecca and the inhabitants of Medina, and fought in a number of battles against the Islamic prophet Muhammad before ultimately converting to Islam before his demise in 632. […] From their homeland in the Hejaz, the Sulaym maintained close relations with other Qaysi tribes, particularly the Hawazin.[1] Members of the tribe's Dhakwan clan formed strong ties with the Meccans in the late 6th century, namely the Quraysh.[1] Prior to that, a chief of the Dhakwan, Muhammad ibn al-Khuza'i, was made commander of a contingent of Rabi'a and Mudar tribal confederates by Abraha, the Aksumite viceroy of Yemen and enemy of the Meccans.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: [QB] [QUOTE]EGYPTIAN ARCHEOLOGIST ZAHI HAWASS: A FALSE PHARAOH AND SHEIKH OF CULTURAL APPROPRIATION
CLAIMING ANCIENT EGYPTIAN ANESTRY WHEN YOU ARE NOT IS CULTURAL APPROPRIATION OF COPTIC IDENTITY
October 9, 2020
It may be said that we as Copts should welcome any Egyptian who claims roots in ancient Egypt and denies his or her Arab identity. This may be true, and it may be politically useful, but it must be based on historical facts. If not, then it is sheer cultural appropriation. Whether it is Afrocentrism or the Arabs in Egypt who claim to be descendants of the Pharaohs or owners of its their great heritage, it must be resisted, for it’s the worst kind of cultural appropriation – it’s theft of identity from the Copts who are the only direct and purest descendants of the ancient Egyptians.
Why do we write about this? Because Zahi Hawass’ claim of ownership of the heritage of ancient Egypt is often repeated by many Egyptian Arabs, who, in my opinion, know that their claim is false, and are insincere about the identity they claim, but, nonetheless, use it for profit.
SORRY, THE INHABITANTS OF GURNA ARE NOT RELATED TO THE ANCIENT EGYPTIANS – AND THEIR GENETIC STRUCTURE PROVES THAT JULY 30, 2020
Many in the world claim to be the direct descendants of the Pharaonic race. I have heard this claim from people in West Africa (Senegalese), Sudan, America (Afro-Americans) and even in UK (Afro-Carri beans in Bristol). In Egypt it is all over the place – Arabs, Turks and Berber have joined the fashion, and this claim intensified after 9 11 as they try to distant themselves from an Arab connection. It amounts to cultural appropriation of the worst type – appropriation, that’s theft and usurpation, of identity and historical lineage and heritage. It’s akin to the attempt by the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (now North Macedonia) appropriating the Macedonian identity and heritage that belongs to Greece and the Greeks. In like manner, any claims by these peoples is a cultural appropriation of the Pharaonic identity and heritage that belongs only to the Copts. _________________________________
It is clear then that the Coptic Christians did not reject Ancient Egyptian glories, nor did they fail to seek national identity. In the absence of a clear awareness and understanding of their past history, it is unfair to judge them on these issues. Rather than being a hindrance, Christianity, in fact, came to the native Egyptians as a national saviour – it inculcated in the Egyptians a unifying sense of identity and gave them a strong incentive to resist any assimilation into the dominant culture at a time that had little to do with Ancient Egypt. As H. Idris Bell puts it: “Christianity in fact (not in Egypt only) released hidden nationalist impulses and gave new life to the native idiom. … In Egypt, … the Greeks seem to have been concentrated chiefly in the nome-capitals, leaving the villages in the main to the Egyptians. … [And] the native Egyptian life continued, secretly hostile to Hellenism and cherishing its national pride. Christianity, when it reached this class, acted as a liberating force, and it was helped by a change of script[19].”[20] In the absence of much awareness of Egypt’s ancient past, the Copts, as Moawad rightly states, “based [their identity] primarily on Christian fundamentals. In Coptic identity there are no traces of ancient Egypt.” The Copts, therefore, based their newly acquired identity on religion rather than state, since they were ruled by a foreign state and had no state of their own – the last ended a millennium ago – and the Coptic Church became their only rallying point. In these circumstances it is understandable that they started their history from St. Mark, the evangelist, who brought Christianity to Egypt, and who is regarded as the first patriarch of the Coptic Church.
As the Copts awoke to a new understanding of their national history that is rooted in Ancient Egypt, and they discovered a special pride in their pharaonic past, they started to readjust their perception of their identity. Such redefining of identity is not unique to the Copts – the Greeks went through the same thing, as Donald Malcolm Reid explains:
Copts in search of a golden age to anchor their modern identity could look either to their spiritual leaders of Roman-Byzantine times – an era of persecution, however – or to ancient Egypt. In nineteenth-century Greece, the clergy and common people identified more readily with Orthodox and Byzantine memories than with the distant classical past, while lay intellectuals and merchants often joined western and northern Europeans in revering ancient Greece. Among Copts, too, a church-centred vision was more congenial to the clergy and common folk, while laymen influenced by Western ideas often felt the allure of the pharaohs.
The difference in the way the clergy and laity perceive their identity or look at history is natural and understandable. The clergy, in all nations, have always leaned towards the spiritual and identified with it more strongly, while the laity emphasised the secular. There is no contradiction in the two views if one looks at Coptic identity as composite and spectrum. In the writer’s view, there is no contradiction between the two views; and as Reid says: “Interest in the Coptic and pharaonic pasts was often complementary, not mutually exclusive. Both were easily compatible with territorial Egyptian patriotism.”[22]
Admittedly, the Copts have still got a long way to go to sort out their national narrative and remove any apparent contradictions; however, it is only a matter of education and time. Copts will define themselves, in time, and in a clear and effective way, as descendants of the ancient Egyptians who in time turned Christian. They have the longest history of all nations; and the greatness of their pharaonic or Christian legacy is not a matter of controversy.
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: This man is gutter and he needs to show his lineage.
quote: A false Pharaoh. Illustration by Floc’h in The New Yorker (November 8, 2009)
Zahi Hawass (b. 1947) is an Egyptian archaeologist and he occupied for a considerable time the position of a Minister of State for Antiquities Affairs. The least that could be said about him is that he is a controversial man. Two good articles on that are to be found in Wikipedia and The New Yorker. But, here, I would like to focus on his claim to be of ancient Egypt as he presented himself as the right heir to the Pharaohs. The fact is that he belongs to an Arab tribe by the name of Hawass that emigrated from Syria to Egypt as explained in a book by Saad Abu Saif al-Houti (I publish below a snippet of the relevant section, p. 232):[1]
The book does not explain how and when they came to Egypt, but it seems that they also went to Libya.[2]
It is alright, and desirable, for any man to study Egyptology and work in archaeology but to claim that he represented the Pharaohs and that he is a son of ancient Egypt is nothing but cultural appropriation. Hawass’ roots are not Egyptian but Arab. And his cultural appropriation of the ancient Egyptian culture must be resented.
What do you expect? Modern Egypt is an "Arab Republic" born out of the experience of colonization by Europeans. They see themselves as part of the Arab world and not as "descendants of pharaohs". And the closest people to the Pharaohs, the people around Aswan, were not even citizens until recently. Meaning this is the basis of the idea that modern Egypt isn't African because it has been associated with the Arab world, since independence, and before that the Ottoman Empire. Both the Arabs and the Ottomans see Egypt as a conquered land and colony and the 'natives' as beneath Arab culture and identity. This is the whole issue.
This is exactly the opposite of the ancient Nile valley which was an African culture, people and civilization. And this is why for most of the last 1500 years, the ancient monuments were not respected or honored as part of their "legacy" and Europeans were allowed to take whatever they wanted to Europe. It is also why Hawass, who was born in Egypt, had to go to the United States to learn "Egyptology" and become an Egyptologist. This is the reason why you should expect nonsensical statements from these people especially when Egypt is in Africa and has been African for over 100,000 years of human history, yet these idiots call it "Afrocentric" when someone points out Egypt is in Africa and most of its history is African.
And Hawass isn't the only one. Salima Ikram isn't even Egyptian, she is a Pakistani who also had to learn Egyptology in America and works at the American University in Egypt. All of these people are purely regurgitating talking points given to them by the Europeans who control the study of ancient Egypt. because other than the money and resources being spent in Egypt by the Americans and Europeans the "Arab" nation wouldn't care about the ancient monuments which is why they gave so much of it away in the first place.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: And Hawass isn't the only one. Salima Ikram isn't even Egyptian, she is a Pakistani who also had to learn Egyptology in America and works at the American University in Egypt. All of these people are purely regurgitating talking points given to them by the Europeans who control the study of ancient Egypt. because other than the money and resources being spent in Egypt by the Americans and Europeans the "Arab" nation wouldn't care about the ancient monuments which is why they gave so much of it away in the first place.
quote:“With the passage of time, each wave of new immigrants has assimilated into the local mix of peoples , making modern Egypt a combination of Libyans, Nubians, Syrians, Persians, Macedonians, Romans, Arabs, Turks, Circassians, Greeks, Italians, and Armenians, along with the descendants of the people of ancient Egypt.”
(Jr. Goldschmidt Arthur (2007), From A Brief History of Egypt)
quote: “Alexander the Great’s conquest of Egypt, in 332 BCE, precipitated a period of mass immigration”
(Riggs, 2012, Ethnicity)
quote: The Muslim conquerors did not attempt a mass conversion of Christianity to Islam, if only because that would have reduced the taxes non-Muslims were compelled to pay, but a number of other factors were at work. Arab “men could marry Christian women and their children would become Muslim. Large-scale Arab immigration into Egypt began during the eighth century.”
(Jason Thompson (2009), A History of Egypt: From Earliest Times to the Present)
quote: According to this recent study modern Egyptians are 80% non-African and 20% African. And the non-African admixtures are dated to around 750 years ago. Well, after the foundation of Ancient Egypt or the precursor cultures (Badarians, Tasians, Nabta Playa, etc).
"Using ADMIXTURE and principal-component analysis (PCA) (Figure 1A), we estimated the average proportion of non-African ancestry in the Egyptians to be 80% and dated the midpoint of the admixture event by using ALDER20 to around 750 years ago (Table S2), consistent with the Islamic expansion and dates reported previously."
(Luca Pagan et al., Tracing the Route of Modern Humans out of Africa by Using 225 Human Genome Sequences from Ethiopians and Egyptians)
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: And Hawass isn't the only one. Salima Ikram isn't even Egyptian, she is a Pakistani who also had to learn Egyptology in America and works at the American University in Egypt. All of these people are purely regurgitating talking points given to them by the Europeans who control the study of ancient Egypt. because other than the money and resources being spent in Egypt by the Americans and Europeans the "Arab" nation wouldn't care about the ancient monuments which is why they gave so much of it away in the first place.
quote:“With the passage of time, each wave of new immigrants has assimilated into the local mix of peoples , making modern Egypt a combination of Libyans, Nubians, Syrians, Persians, Macedonians, Romans, Arabs, Turks, Circassians, Greeks, Italians, and Armenians, along with the descendants of the people of ancient Egypt.”
(Jr. Goldschmidt Arthur (2007), From A Brief History of Egypt)
quote: “Alexander the Great’s conquest of Egypt, in 332 BCE, precipitated a period of mass immigration”
(Riggs, 2012, Ethnicity)
quote: The Muslim conquerors did not attempt a mass conversion of Christianity to Islam, if only because that would have reduced the taxes non-Muslims were compelled to pay, but a number of other factors were at work. Arab “men could marry Christian women and their children would become Muslim. Large-scale Arab immigration into Egypt began during the eighth century.”
(Jason Thompson (2009), A History of Egypt: From Earliest Times to the Present)
quote: According to this recent study modern Egyptians are 80% non-African and 20% African. And the non-African admixtures are dated to around 750 years ago. Well, after the foundation of Ancient Egypt or the precursor cultures (Badarians, Tasians, Nabta Playa, etc).
"Using ADMIXTURE and principal-component analysis (PCA) (Figure 1A), we estimated the average proportion of non-African ancestry in the Egyptians to be 80% and dated the midpoint of the admixture event by using ALDER20 to around 750 years ago (Table S2), consistent with the Islamic expansion and dates reported previously."
(Luca Pagan et al., Tracing the Route of Modern Humans out of Africa by Using 225 Human Genome Sequences from Ethiopians and Egyptians)
From the time of Roman Egypt in 200AD to the Ottoman Period the population size of Egypt likely fell somewhat but was relatively stable at around 5 million in 1800. It reached 20 million in 1952, around the time of the Egyptian revolution and independence. Since then it has exploded to over 100 million people. Most of that increase happened in the Northern parts of the country.
The modern population is not the same as the ancient one as most of the primary centers of population in Roman times through today are in the North. From Alexandra in Romnan times to Cairo today. Of course, these are the areas with the heaviest influence of foreign blood.
Meanwhile in ancient times, the primary population centers were in Luxor, Thebes and so forth, in other words, areas to the South.
Also, a bit of historical context. For the most part, under the Romans and everyone after them, right up to the present day, most of the country, especially the Southern areas were exploited for their agricultural output. This burden mostly borne on the backs of the Fellahin.
After the Ottomans, came Muhammad Ali an Albanian who decided to make Egypt into his own personal family kingdom. After a three way war between the Ottomans, Albanians and Mamluks, Ali came out the victor and was in control of Egypt. He then went on to invade Sudan and Libya.
quote: n 1820 Muhammad Ali gave orders to commence the conquest of eastern Libya. He first sent an expedition westward (Feb. 1820) which conquered and annexed the Siwa oasis. Ali's intentions for Sudan was to extend his rule southward, to capture the valuable caravan trade bound for the Red Sea, and to secure the rich gold mines which he believed to exist in Sennar. He also saw in the campaign a means of getting rid of his disaffected troops, and of obtaining a sufficient number of captives to form the nucleus of the new army.
The forces destined for this service were led by Ismail, his youngest son. They consisted of between 4000 and 5000 men, being Turks and Arabs. They left Cairo in July 1820. Nubia at once submitted, the Shaigiya tribe immediately beyond the province of Dongola were defeated, the remnant of the Mamluks dispersed, and Sennar was reduced without a battle.
Mahommed Bey, the defterdar, with another force of about the same strength, was then sent by Muhammad Ali against Kordofan with like result, but not without a hard-fought engagement. In October 1822, Ismail, with his retinue, was burnt to death by Nimr, the mek (king) of Shendi; following this incident the defterdar, a man infamous for his cruelty, assumed the command of those provinces, and exacted terrible retribution from the inhabitants. Khartoum was founded at this time, and in the following years the rule of the Egyptians was greatly extended and control of the Red Sea ports of Suakin and Massawa obtained.
While Muhammad Ali promoted reforms to the economy, it was mostly for his own personal profit as all the land was his and along with all the state corporations he created. And to maintain the country he had to rely on peasants to serve in the army and do the hard labor. This caused some rebellions to break out.
quote: In 1824 a native rebellion broke out in Upper Egypt headed by one Ahmad, an inhabitant of al-Salimiyyah, a village situated a few miles above Thebes. He proclaimed himself a prophet, and was soon followed by between 20,000 and 30,000 insurgents, mostly peasants, but some of them deserters from the Nizam Gedid, for that force was yet in a half-organized state.
The peasants were angered by many of Ali's reforms, especially the introduction of conscription and the increase in taxes and forced labour.
The insurrection was crushed by Muhammad Ali, and about one fourth of Ahmad's followers perished, but he himself escaped and was never heard of again. Few of these unfortunates possessed any other weapon than the long staff (nabbut) of the Egyptian peasant; still they offered an obstinate resistance, and the combat in which they were defeated resembled a massacre. This movement was the last internal attempt to destroy the pasha's authority.
Even though many historians claim that Muhammad Ali was a reformer, he was basically a tyrant who built his fortunes on the back of the peasant population.
quote: Various restrictions were laid upon Muhammad Ali, emphasizing his position as vassal. He was forbidden to maintain a fleet and his army was not to exceed 18,000 men. The pasha no longer a disrupting figure in European politics, but he continued to occupy himself with his improvements in Egypt. But times were not all good; the long wars combined with murrain of cattle in 1842 and a destructive Nile flood made matters worse. In 1843 there was a plague of locusts where whole villages were depopulated. Even the sequestered army was a strain enough for a population unaccustomed to the rigidities of the conscription service. Florence Nightingale, the famous British nurse, recounts in her letters from Egypt written in 1849–50, that many an Egyptian family thought it be enough to "protect" their children from the inhumanities of the military service by blinding them in one eye or rendering them unfit by cutting off their limb. But Muhammad Ali was not to be confounded by such tricks of bodily non-compliance, and with that view he set up a special corps of disabled musketeers declaring that one can shoot well enough even with one eye.
Meantime the uttermost farthing was wrung from the wretched fellahin, while they were forced to the building of magnificent public works by unpaid labor. In 1844–45 there was some improvement in the condition of the country as a result of financial reforms the pasha executed. Muhammad Ali, who had been granted the honorary rank of grand vizier in 1842, paid a visit to Istanbul in 1846, where he became reconciled to his old enemy Khosrev Pasha, whom he had not seen since he spared his life at Cairo in 1803.
After Muhammad Ali died, things didn't get any better as his grandson continued with the agenda of his grandfather with the result being the country went into bankruptcy and was invaded and taken over by the British, even after providing slave labor to built the Suez Canal. At the end of his rule he was removed from power and the country defacto rule of the British.
quote: Isma'il Pasha (Arabic: إسماعيل باشا Ismā‘īl Bāshā; Turkish: İsmail Paşa), known as Ismail the Magnificent (31 December 1830 – 2 March 1895), was the Khedive of Egypt and conqueror of Sudan from 1863 to 1879, when he was removed at the behest of Great Britain. Sharing the ambitious outlook of his grandfather, Muhammad Ali Pasha, he greatly modernized Egypt and Sudan during his reign, investing heavily in industrial and economic development, urbanization, and the expansion of the country's boundaries in Africa.
His philosophy can be glimpsed in a statement that he made in 1879: "My country is no longer in Africa; we are now part of Europe. It is therefore natural for us to abandon our former ways and to adopt a new system adapted to our social conditions".
quote: In his earlier years of reign, much was changed regarding Egypt's sovereignty, which seemed likely to give Ismail a more important place in history. In 1866 the Ottoman Sultan granted him a firman, obtained on condition that he increase his annual tribute from £376,000 to £720,000. This made the succession to the throne of Egypt descend to the eldest of the male children and in the same manner to the eldest sons of these successors, instead of to the eldest male of the family, following the practice of Turkish law. In the next year another firman bestowed upon him the title of khedive in lieu of that of vali, borne by Mehemet Ali and his immediate successors. In 1873 a further firman placed the khedive in many respects in the position of an independent sovereign.
Ismail re-established and improved Muhammad Ali's administrative system, which had fallen into decay under Abbas's uneventful rule. This included a thorough revamping of the customs system which was anarchic, and remodeled on British lines and by English officials. In 1865, he established the Egyptian post office; he reorganized the military schools of his grandfather, and gave some support to the cause of education. Railways, telegraphs, irrigation projects, lighthouses, the harbour works at Suez, and the breakwater at Alexandria, were carried out during his reign, by some of the best contractors of Europe. Most important of all, was Egypt's support for the Suez Canal, which finally opened in 1869. Not only did the government buy many shares in the venture, initially intended for British investors, it provided the corvee labour to dig the canal, as well as digging a canal to bring Nile water to the new city of Ismailia at the Suez's midpoint. When Khedive Ismail sought to terminate Egypt's corvee labour obligation, because he needed it for cotton production to take advantage of vastly inflated cotton prices, caused by the loss of American exports during its Civil War, Egypt was compelled to pay more than £3 million in compensation to the Canal Company. The funds helped pay for the elaborate dredging equipment brought in to replace the labour and needed to complete the canal.[8]
Once that conflict ended Ismail had to find new sources of funding to keep his development and reform efforts alive. Thus the funds required for these public works, as well as the actual labor, were remorselessly extorted from a poverty-stricken population. A striking picture of the condition of the people at this period is given by Lady Duff Gordon in Last Letters from Egypt. Writing in 1867 she said: "I cannot describe the misery here now every day some new tax. Every beast, camel, cow, sheep, donkey and horse is made to pay. The fellaheen can no longer eat bread; they are living on barley-meal mixed with water, and raw green stuff, vetches, &c. The taxation makes life almost impossible: a tax on every crop, on every animal first, and again when it is sold in the market; on every man, on charcoal, on butter, on salt. . . . The people in Upper Egypt are running away by wholesale, utterly unable to pay the new taxes and do the work exacted. Even here (Cairo) the beating for the years taxes is awful."
quote: After the Arab conquest of Egypt, they called the common masses of indigenous peasants fellahin (peasants or farmers) because their ancient work of agriculture and connecting to their lands was different from the Jews who were traders and the Greeks (Rum in Arabic), who were the ruling class. With the passage of time, the name took on an ethnic character, and the Arab elites to some extent used the fellah synonymously with "indigenous Egyptian". Also when a Christian Egyptian converted to Islam he was called falih which means "winner" or "victorious".
Most urban Egyptians are considered to be fellahin but see the term as offensive and so prefer to call themselves Masriin ("Egyptians") instead.
Comprising 60% of the Egyptian population,[8] the fellahin lead humble lives and continue to live in mud-brick houses like their ancient ancestors.[1] Their percentage was much higher in the early 20th century, before the large influx of Egyptian fellahin into urban towns and cities. In 1927, anthropologist Winifred Blackman, author of The Fellahin of Upper Egypt, conducted ethnographic research on the life of Upper Egyptian farmers and concluded that there were observable continuities between the cultural and religious beliefs and practices of the fellahin and those of ancient Egyptians.[9]
Whole lot of Africans there that I can see. And of course this is a large reason why these Arab,Turkish, Greek and Roman invaders have treated them like serfs.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: From the time of Roman Egypt in 200AD to the Ottoman Period the population size of Egypt likely fell somewhat but was relatively stable at around 5 million in 1800. It reached 20 million in 1952, around the time of the Egyptian revolution and independence. Since then it has exploded to over 100 million people. Most of that increase happened in the Northern parts of the country.
Years ago, I mean in 1996 I saw a website with some Turkish scholar claiming that the ancient Egyptians were Turkish.
When I was in Egypt in 2010, I had a tour guide who obviously was of Turkish decent. I know a Turk when I see one and he was that.
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But to the point of the thread, Hawass has made this pronouncement, and this is not the first time he has said such things publicly for all to see. Note that to this day no Egyptologist will go on record disputing or disagreeing with these things. That is because in order to be hired and paid as an Egyptologist at any major institutions, especially those where you are on TV and a face known to the larger public, these are the views you HAVE to promote. No Egyptologist will EVER go on record publicly saying otherwise because this is the status quo the whole entire institution is built to maintain. And it doesn't matter what background they are, many of them say the same thing. What they like to do is use "Afrocentrics" as boogeymen to draw attention from their lies, racism and fraudulent pseudoscience because any serious investigation of the facts shows it to be full of deception and they know it.
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Fear of blackness: descriptions and ethnogenesis of the original Afro-Arabian tribes of “Moorish” Spain by Dana Marniche
quote: “Red, in the speech of the people from Hejaz means fair-complexioned, and this color is rare amongst the Arabs. This is the meaning of the saying … a red man as if he is one of the slaves.” From Seyar A’laam al-Nubalaa, vol. 2, by the Syrian Al-Dhahabi (Thahabi),of the century 14th c. A.D. […]
Descriptions and Ethnogenesis of the Original Arabs:
The tribes leaving the north and central parts of Arabia occupying the Hejaz and Nejd can be divided into major branches. They include those traditional genealogy called “Ishmaelites” or descendants of Kedar, like the tribes of Qays ibn Ailan or El Nas and El Yas, and the Rabi’ah and Wa’il all based in the central regions of the peninsula. Many of these were “the Saracens” whom Ammianus Marcellinus, Roman general of the 4th c. A.D. claimed had originated “from the cataracts of the Nile” in Sudan. […] Because many of the indigenous Arabian people of Jordan and Hejaz were near black in color and claim descent from the Kedar, Kinanniyya (Kana’ani or Cana’an), and Nabataeans (such as the modern Haweit’at), the Syrians and others who had come to adopt Arabic nationality (or who had been colonized by the Arabs), came to presume names such as Nabit, Kedar, Kanaan meant “black” people. […] THE QAYS AILAN BIN MUDAR – DESCRIPTIONS AND SETTLEMENT IN SPAIN: The descriptions of the Qays clans families and individuals are many. To the Qays Ailan groups belonged the famous northern Arabian tribes of the Harra and Hejaz including the well-described children of Mansur (Mansour or Manas’ir) Sulaym bin Mansur, Mazin bin Mansur and Hawazin bin Mansour whose sub clans are in the dozens. The descendants Mansur bin Ikrima bin Khasafa bin Qays bin Ailan in Arabia, like most early Arabs in Arabia are referred to as black and dark brown in texts. Although they were famous for their slave raiding and use of Greco- Romans (Rum) concubines in ancient times, many clans, in fact, remain near black in color in the peninsula today.
The Iraqi Al Jahiz (9th c.) and Ibn Athir, the Kurd (12th -13th c.) both refer to the Sulaym bin Mansour in particular as “pure” Arabs and “black” in color, not simply dark brown which was also common in the Hejaz. Al Jahiz said that all the tribes of the Harra an area south of Jordan and extending into Hejaz were black like the lava and animals in the region. […] Circa 1879, the famed British adventurer Sir Richard Burton describing the Hamida as a large clan of the Banu Salim bin Auf of Hejaz, Sir Richard Francis Burton describes the men as, “small chocolate colored beings, stunted and thin… with mops of bushy hair… straggling beards , vicious eyes, frowning brows … armed with scabbards slung over the shoulder and Janbiyyah daggers…” a people “of the great Hejazi tribe that has kept his blood pure for the last 13 centuries…” ( Burton in Personal Narrative of a Pilgrimage to el Medina and Mecca .p. 173 3rd edition William Mullen and Son.) […]
ELYAS (ELIAS BIN MUZAR, MUZIR OR MUDAR)
Muzar’s other descendants were the clans of Elyas of the southern Hejaz. When the tribes and individuals of the clans of Elyas are described, they are described in writings as “dark brown” or “black”. They were centered in Hejaz or western Arabia stretching southward toward the Yemen. The El Yas or Elias bin Muzir or Mudar was exemplified by the Kinaniyya or Kinana bin Khuzaima bin Mudrika bin Elyas (who became famously known as the Canaanites) from which came Mohammed’s tribe of the Qureish, and the tribes of Tamim bin Murra, Hudhail, Nadir, Mustaliq, Makhzumi and Zahra.
Elyasa or Elias included the famous Kinana who were described in European Talmudic texts as “black, thieving people” with “large male members”. Wah ibn Munabbih a 7th century descendant of Iranian mercenaries who had settled in the Yemen just before the period of Islam also made Cana’an “black”, being quite familiar with the Kinaaniyya tribe of Hejaz. The Banu Umayya who founded the Umayyad dynasty of Islam among the clans descended from tribes of Qureish founded the Umayyad dynasty.
quote:The number of Blacks is greater than the number of Whites, because most of those who are counted as Whites are comprised of people from Persia, the mountains, Khurasan, Rome, Slavia, France and Iberia, and anything apart from them is insignificant. But among the Blacks are counted the Negroes, the Ethiopians, the Fezzan, the Berbers, the Copts, the Nubians, the Zaghawa, the Moors, the people of Sind, the Hindus, the Qamar, the Dabila, the Chinese, and those beyond them … The Arabs come from us — not from the Whites — because of the similarity of their color to ours ... The Hindus are more yellow in color than the Arabs, yet they are (counted) among the Black peoples. And the Prophet (God bless him and grant him salvation) said, ‘I was sent to the Reds and to the Blacks,’ and people already know that the Arabs are not red, as we mentioned before. That is our glory and that of the Arabs over the Whites, whether they like it or not. And if they hate (to admit) it, it is still our glory in what we have mentioned (here) over all.
(Nicholas C. McLeod, Race, rebellion, and Arab Muslim slavery : the Zanj Rebellion in Iraq, 869 - 883 C.E., University of Louisville)
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"Not to mention since when did modern Egypt care about the ancient past? They sure didn't care about it in the 1700s and 1800s when Europeans invaded and took most of the artifacts. So who are they kidding?"
People like Rifaa Rafi al-Tahtawi, Mustafa Kamil, Ahmad Lutfi al-Sayyid, Sami Gabra and Selim Hassan, just to name a few, were all interested in Ancient Egypt. 1700-1800's and even until 1900's Egypt was under colonial rule.
"Egypt is an Arab republic and Arabs don't see ancient Egypt as "Arab history". This is complete and utter nonsense. Since the numerous invasions and colonization by various European powers explicitly for the purposes of stealing ancient African history, the country see ancient Egypt as an important part of their economy, so of course they will say this."
That depends on the political ideology of whose being asked. Egyptians who believe in a territorial nationalism are more likely to and do embrace their ancient past, where as those into Islamism might not. The French colonization of Egypt in 1798 was mainly concerned with preventing Britain access to India, and throwing off Mamluk rule.
"Salima Ikram isn't even Egyptian, she is a Pakistani"
To what extent does her race/ethnic identity matter ?
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quote:Originally posted by Karem: "Not to mention since when did modern Egypt care about the ancient past? They sure didn't care about it in the 1700s and 1800s when Europeans invaded and took most of the artifacts. So who are they kidding?"
People like Rifaa Rafi al-Tahtawi, Mustafa Kamil, Ahmad Lutfi al-Sayyid, Sami Gabra and Selim Hassan, just to name a few, were all interested in Ancient Egypt. 1700-1800's and even until 1900's Egypt was under colonial rule.
"Egypt is an Arab republic and Arabs don't see ancient Egypt as "Arab history". This is complete and utter nonsense. Since the numerous invasions and colonization by various European powers explicitly for the purposes of stealing ancient African history, the country see ancient Egypt as an important part of their economy, so of course they will say this."
The bigger issue here is that European powers were able to take much of the artifacts from Egypt, The Levant and Iraq because those lands were under Ottoman Rule and the Ottomans did not have much interest in keeping them for themselves. Arab regimes have long been known to treat prior history before Arab/Islamic invasion as against Islam. It is due to the way the process of Arabization/Islamization works. You don't have to be a "radical islamist" for this to happen. Islamic states historically all revolved around the religion as the basis for the state, which means Islamic/Arab history becomes the core of the history. Now in early Islam, scholarship was more liberal, especially in the Islamic Golden Age, but since then much of Islamic teaching has been devoted to the Quran and Islamic principles.
The bigger issue is that obviously the ancient culture was an African culture created by African people. Non Africans would have brought obvious non African culture, tradition, gods and dress which you do not see in the ancient Nile Valley. Everything that has happened since the Persians shows that foreigners don't respect African traditions. So it makes no sense to claim that this ancient African culture would have come from Non Africans. Why would non Africans worship Khunum or Aset or Ausar as deities tied to Africa and the Nile? Why would they elevate inner Africa as Ta Netjer and not the Levant? Why would they depend on soldiers and police from other African lands and not Levantine and Asiatic soldiers? That just contradicts logic and facts. Most importantly the ancient society wasn't a slave society so they wouldn't have had "slave soldiers" which was a key feature of many Islamic armies in the Ottoman and Mamluk era. So those soldiers would have been afforded respect, power and prestige which wouldn't make sense if they hated Africans so much. Why would the color black be a sacred color is they hated blackness so much?
quote:Originally posted by Karem: That depends on the political ideology of whose being asked. Egyptians who believe in a territorial nationalism are more likely to and do embrace their ancient past, where as those into Islamism might not. The French colonization of Egypt in 1798 was mainly concerned with preventing Britain access to India, and throwing off Mamluk rule.
"Salima Ikram isn't even Egyptian, she is a Pakistani"
To what extent does her race/ethnic identity matter ?
Ideology plays a part but a lot of it has to do with money which in turn plays a big role in politics. And the country needs money from tourism. The country just built a huge new museum and they will need foreigners to help pay for it. Of course, it doesn't matter what the background of the scholar is, but again, the ideology is that the ancient Nile wasn't African. People may often have assumed that Salima was an Egyptian. To this day, the native Egyptians mostly are used as laborers in the field while most of the scholars are non Egyptian. This is why in order to get a degree in Egyptology you have to LEAVE EGYPT and go to Europe or America. That just shows you that the whole institution of Egyptology itself is based on a foreign colonial ideology and has nothing to do with any actual facts or evidence on the ground. And most of the digs and research on Egypt is done by European institutions and many of these scholars likewise paid by Europeans as well. So for the former director of the Egyptian Supreme Council of Antiquities to say the ancient culture and people weren't African, he may as well say they were European because that's who controls Egyptology. The only distinction in terms of politics is that the government of Egypt wants to keep any new artifacts found in Egypt in the country as part of national sovereignty. A lot of this started around the time of the discovery of the tomb of Tutankhamun.
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"The bigger issue here is that European powers were able to take much of the artifacts from Egypt, The Levant and Iraq because those lands were under Ottoman Rule and the Ottomans did not have much interest in keeping them for themselves. Arab regimes have long been known to treat prior history before Arab/Islamic invasion as against Islam. It is due to the way the process of Arabization/Islamization works. You don't have to be a "radical islamist" for this to happen. Islamic states historically all revolved around the religion as the basis for the state, which means Islamic/Arab history becomes the core of the history. Now in early Islam, scholarship was more liberal, especially in the Islamic Golden Age, but since then much of Islamic teaching has been devoted to the Quran and Islamic principles."
That's all true, but I was responding to your point about modern Egyptians not being at all interested in their ancient past. Modern Egyptians aren't responsible for what those ruling over them, like Ottomans did.
"The bigger issue is that obviously the ancient culture was an African culture created by African people. Non Africans would have brought obvious non African culture, tradition, gods and dress which you do not see in the ancient Nile Valley. Everything that has happened since the Persians shows that foreigners don't respect African traditions. So it makes no sense to claim that this ancient African culture would have come from Non Africans. Why would non Africans worship Khunum or Aset or Ausar as deities tied to Africa and the Nile? Why would they elevate inner Africa as Ta Khent and not the Levant? Why would they depend on soldiers and police from other African lands and not Levantine and Asiatic soldiers? That just contradicts logic and facts. Most importantly the ancient society wasn't a slave society so they wouldn't have had "slave soldiers" which was a key feature of many Islamic armies in the Ottoman and Mamluk era. So those soldiers would have been afforded respect, power and prestige which wouldn't make sense if they hated Africans so much. Why would the color black be a sacred color is they hated blackness so much?"
No one in here is disputing Ancient Egypt as African.
"Ideology plays a part but a lot of it has to do with money which in turn plays a big role in politics. And the country needs money from tourism. The country just built a huge new museum and they will need foreigners to help pay for it. Of course, it doesn't matter what the background of the scholar is, but again, the ideology is that the ancient Nile wasn't African. People may often have assumed that Salima was an Egyptian. To this day, the native Egyptians mostly are used as laborers in the field while most of the scholars are non Egyptian. This is why in order to get a degree in Egyptology you have to LEAVE EGYPT and go to Europe or America. That just shows you that the whole institution of Egyptology itself is based on a foreign colonial ideology and has nothing to do with any actual facts or evidence on the ground. And most of the digs and research on Egypt is done by European institutions and many of these scholars likewise paid by Europeans as well. So for the former director of the Egyptian Supreme Council of Antiquities to say the ancient culture and people weren't African, he may as well say they were European because that's who controls Egyptology. The only distinction in terms of politics is that the government of Egypt wants to keep any new artifacts found in Egypt in the country as part of national sovereignty. A lot of this started around the time of the discovery of the tomb of Tutankhamun."
That's right, despite attempts to view and present it as a system of race relations - as though its main and only objective is to produce white supremacy, not economic and political domination of Egypt (thanks to the Fields sisters for that). Correct, and its those laborers who are erased from museum displays, as well as being portrayed as 'savages' in film. Without their labour, we wouldn't be able to enjoy many of the artefacts we see in todays museums, or written about in books and academic papers. 'Cultural appropriation' is much discussed, but theres little to no talk about the appropriation of labour. Those laborers are likely more concerned with providing for their families, than western culture wars.
Posts: 61 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Karem: "The bigger issue here is that European powers were able to take much of the artifacts from Egypt, The Levant and Iraq because those lands were under Ottoman Rule and the Ottomans did not have much interest in keeping them for themselves. Arab regimes have long been known to treat prior history before Arab/Islamic invasion as against Islam. It is due to the way the process of Arabization/Islamization works. You don't have to be a "radical islamist" for this to happen. Islamic states historically all revolved around the religion as the basis for the state, which means Islamic/Arab history becomes the core of the history. Now in early Islam, scholarship was more liberal, especially in the Islamic Golden Age, but since then much of Islamic teaching has been devoted to the Quran and Islamic principles."
That's all true, but I was responding to your point about modern Egyptians not being at all interested in their ancient past. Modern Egyptians aren't responsible for what those ruling over them, like Ottomans did.
"The bigger issue is that obviously the ancient culture was an African culture created by African people. Non Africans would have brought obvious non African culture, tradition, gods and dress which you do not see in the ancient Nile Valley. Everything that has happened since the Persians shows that foreigners don't respect African traditions. So it makes no sense to claim that this ancient African culture would have come from Non Africans. Why would non Africans worship Khunum or Aset or Ausar as deities tied to Africa and the Nile? Why would they elevate inner Africa as Ta Khent and not the Levant? Why would they depend on soldiers and police from other African lands and not Levantine and Asiatic soldiers? That just contradicts logic and facts. Most importantly the ancient society wasn't a slave society so they wouldn't have had "slave soldiers" which was a key feature of many Islamic armies in the Ottoman and Mamluk era. So those soldiers would have been afforded respect, power and prestige which wouldn't make sense if they hated Africans so much. Why would the color black be a sacred color is they hated blackness so much?"
No one in here is disputing Ancient Egypt as African.
"Ideology plays a part but a lot of it has to do with money which in turn plays a big role in politics. And the country needs money from tourism. The country just built a huge new museum and they will need foreigners to help pay for it. Of course, it doesn't matter what the background of the scholar is, but again, the ideology is that the ancient Nile wasn't African. People may often have assumed that Salima was an Egyptian. To this day, the native Egyptians mostly are used as laborers in the field while most of the scholars are non Egyptian. This is why in order to get a degree in Egyptology you have to LEAVE EGYPT and go to Europe or America. That just shows you that the whole institution of Egyptology itself is based on a foreign colonial ideology and has nothing to do with any actual facts or evidence on the ground. And most of the digs and research on Egypt is done by European institutions and many of these scholars likewise paid by Europeans as well. So for the former director of the Egyptian Supreme Council of Antiquities to say the ancient culture and people weren't African, he may as well say they were European because that's who controls Egyptology. The only distinction in terms of politics is that the government of Egypt wants to keep any new artifacts found in Egypt in the country as part of national sovereignty. A lot of this started around the time of the discovery of the tomb of Tutankhamun."
That's right, despite attempts to view and present it as a system of race relations - as though its main and only objective is to produce white supremacy, not economic and political domination of Egypt (thanks to the Fields sisters for that). Correct, and its those laborers who are erased from museum displays, as well as being portrayed as 'savages' in film. Without their labour, we wouldn't be able to enjoy many of the artefacts we see in todays museums, or written about in books and academic papers. 'Cultural appropriation' is much discussed, but theres little to no talk about the appropriation of labour. Those laborers are likely more concerned with providing for their families, than western culture wars.
It is an issue of theft, colonization, Imperialism, fraud, deception, pseudo-science, slavery, oppression, murder and everything else. The modern nation of Egypt is not even 100 years old. What happened in Egypt since the foreigners invaded has been nothing but continuous subjugation. Using native laborers as basically slaves has been in place since those times. Egypt's Arab spring was a result of the fact that the economy of Egypt has been historically dominated by foreigners and built off the backs of the natives and fellahin. This is why the country today is so impoverished. And now you got foreign Europeans basically exploiting them for their history because in those European's eyes the ancient Nile Valley was European. Make no mistake about that. This is because many of the rulers and upper classes of Egypt have often aligned themselves and looked up to Europe. So abusing the peasants (natives, subjects, conquered) isn't an issue for them.
quote: An Anglican Missionary, George Percy Badger confirmed the number of workers in the thousands and testified that they had been promised payment but now had lost hope on this happening, being forced to work and wanting to go back to their homes.
The reality of the workers in the Canal was dreadful. Le Chantier du Canal de Suez (1859-1869) by Nathalie Montel showed that the workers didn´t even have enough to drink under the scorching sun and that there were two different kinds of life around the Canal. On one side there were banks, bakeries and bars for the expatriates, and on the other side the misery and starvation of forced labor.
The Suez Canal… An Epic story of a People and the Dream of Generations, published by the ministry of education in 2014, claims that overall there were 1 million Egyptians employed in the construction, and around 100,000 died from 1859 to 1869.
quote: CAIRO – 2 July 2018: Minister of Manpower, Mohamed Saffan, said Sunday that the ministry has taken legal procedures against 74 institutions that violate Egypt’s child labour law from 2017 until the end of 2018’s first quarter.
Celebrating the launch of the national plan to combat child labor 2018/2025, Saffan said that his ministry has found that 12,700 institutions are not hiring children, while 74 institutions have been proven to be violators of the Egyptian child labour law, adding that other 4,248 institutions have been warned by the ministry.
A number of 18,885 children, including 12,536 male children, have been protected by the state from child labour law violators during the previously mentioned period, according to Saffan.
Numerous Egyptian parents help their children work for reasons that include poverty and incomplete education.
posted
True, and with that in mind, when you state "They sure didn't care about it in the 1700s and 1800s when Europeans invaded and took most of the artifacts" its worth remembering that some of the works carried out were done using corvee labour.
The decolonization of Egyptology is welcome, although if the spokespeople for it focus on and centre conversations about inequality on culture and identity, and talk about 'inclusion and diversity' along 'race' lines only, but don't include discussions of capitalism or class, it might limit just how decolonized Egyptology (and higher education) can be.
Posts: 61 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2016
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posted
Anyway, Hawass sounds like he thinks Egyptians in their current form just sprung up from nothing right there in the Lower Nile Valley. He doesn't seem to think AE were African or Eurasian, but rather uniquely "Egyptian". The dude probably knows nothing about the subject of AE origins or affinities.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: It is an issue of theft, colonization, Imperialism, fraud, deception, pseudo-science, slavery, oppression, murder and everything else. The modern nation of Egypt is not even 100 years old. What happened in Egypt since the foreigners invaded has been nothing but continuous subjugation. Using native laborers as basically slaves has been in place since those times. Egypt's Arab spring was a result of the fact that the economy of Egypt has been historically dominated by foreigners and built off the backs of the natives and fellahin. This is why the country today is so impoverished. And now you got foreign Europeans basically exploiting them for their history because in those European's eyes the ancient Nile Valley was European. Make no mistake about that. This is because many of the rulers and upper classes of Egypt have often aligned themselves and looked up to Europe. So abusing the peasants (natives, subjects,
What so sad about the issue is the continued intellectual dishonesty of Hawass and his acolytes/enablers. They know full well that there are multiple lines of evidence (DNA, limb proportions, cranial, cultural, archaeo, etc on the African character and foundation of AE. They know full well that the people ethnically the closest to the Aes are Nubians, etc and much more. They well know the substantial body of hard data in support as well as credible mainstream scholars in support. Yet they still continue to "spin" the issue as a matter of Diop 1962, or Count Volley c. 1800s, or Petrie 1899, or Herodotus c. 400 (legit background but dated) or simply a matter of "Afrocentrics". Its such a dirty, cynical game, by dirty. cynical people. Part of the game is to "spin" the issues as if they are frozen in time to these dated sources, after which alleged "Afrocentric" claims can be "refuted." One of their key tactics is the bogus or distorted strawman.
Its like the dirty moles on Wikipedia who keep on removing credible, legit info on such matters from Wiki to maintain laughably weak articles on "spin" away the facts, or the dirty trolls that keep on cynically denying or misrepresenting the facts and evidence on site after site, or the fake "militant Afrocentrists" setting up fake memes and posts in various places to "refute."
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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An apt response. Can't wait for Hawass to stop talking bs.
-------------------- "Nothing hurts a racist more than the absolute truth and a punch to the face" Posts: 101 | From: United States | Registered: Aug 2020
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: I can't find the name of either of Zahi Hawass’ parents
Hawass was born in a small village near Damietta
"Hawass went on, “I’m not the son of a minister or an important man. And I don’t think that anyone in Egypt like me, from an ordinary family, has become a public figure.” (This seemed to overlook Presidents Nasser and Sadat, among others.) His father—“a good man, proud of himself”—was a farmer, who died when Zahi was thirteen, leaving his mother with six children. Zahi was the oldest son.
Al-'Ubaydiyya (Arabic: العبيدية) was a Palestinian Arab village in the Tiberias Subdistrict. It was depopulated during the 1947–1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine on March 3, 1948. It was located 11 km south of Tiberias, situated close to the Jordan River.
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Posts: 1549 | From: California, USA | Registered: Jan 2006
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Al-'Ubaydiyya (Arabic: العبيدية) was a Palestinian Arab village in the Tiberias Subdistrict. It was depopulated during the 1947–1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine on March 3, 1948. It was located 11 km south of Tiberias, situated close to the Jordan River.
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You have linked Britannica
it says:
Zahi Hawass, (born May 28, 1947, Al-ʿUbaydiyyah, Egypt)...
Maybe there are two places named this ? It says right in the beginning of the Britannica
Al-ʿUbaydiyyah, Egypt
I haven't had much success researching it
_________________________
Ubayd Allah al-Mahdi Billah a.k.a Said ibn Husayn (Arabic: عبيد الله بن الحسين المهدي) is considered the founder of the Fatimid dynasty, the only major Shi'ite caliphate in Islam. He established Fatimid rule throughout much of North Africa. He ruled from 909 to 934.
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Karem: True, and with that in mind, when you state "They sure didn't care about it in the 1700s and 1800s when Europeans invaded and took most of the artifacts" its worth remembering that some of the works carried out were done using corvee labour.
The decolonization of Egyptology is welcome, although if the spokespeople for it focus on and centre conversations about inequality on culture and identity, and talk about 'inclusion and diversity' along 'race' lines only, but don't include discussions of capitalism or class, it might limit just how decolonized Egyptology (and higher education) can be.
The decolonization starts with those who did the colonization in the first place. Everything else from class, to race and capitalism is in support of the colonization agenda. The entire paradigm of colonization affects all aspects of human activity and the control of history is a big part of it because it allows them to promote themselves as the basis of all that is good and right in the universe. That is the whole point. And honestly even if the facts contradict them, they will simply revert to might makes right and I don't care if it is wrong I can do what I want. Because they didn't get where they are by doing the right thing and being honorable in the first place.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I mean who cares? We've been on Egyptsearch for how long? Some of us here for DECADES.... We already KNOW Hawass has an anti-African stance, so what's new exactly?
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: I mean who cares? We've been on Egyptsearch for how long? Some of us here for DECADES.... We already KNOW Hawass has an anti-African stance, so what's new exactly?
Facts...that AH has continued in his delusions.
-------------------- "Nothing hurts a racist more than the absolute truth and a punch to the face" Posts: 101 | From: United States | Registered: Aug 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: I mean who cares? We've been on Egyptsearch for how long? Some of us here for DECADES.... We already KNOW Hawass has an anti-African stance, so what's new exactly?
Supposedly they are going to come out with more aDNA data from Egyptian royal mummies next year.
quote:Historical records suggest that a smallpox-like disease has been with us for more than 3,000 years, and might even have killed the young pharaoh Rameses V in the twelfth century BC — although nobody can be certain that he had smallpox or that, if he did, the disease killed him. The latest DNA evidence doesn’t shed any light on that idea, but an Egyptian project to analyse the DNA of royal mummies is scheduled to report in 2022.
But with Hawass expressing the sentiments he does, I question whether it'll cover the mummies' apparent population origins or affinities at all. He doesn't sound like he wants his nationalistic Egypto-centric beliefs challenged either way.
posted
If Hawass wanted aDNA to correspond to "nationalistic Egypto-centric beliefs" then presumably he would want modern and ancient Egyptian DNA to correspond
Modern Egyptians in a study by Luis et al. (2004) found that the male haplogroups in a sample of 147 Egyptians were E1b1b (36.1%, predominantly E-M78), J (32.0%), G (8.8%), T(8.2%), and R (7.5%).
Egyptians from Gurna found a genetic ancestral heritage to modern Northeast Africans, characterized by a high M1 haplotype frequency and a comparatively low L1 and L2 macrohaplogroup frequency of 20.6%. Another study links Egyptians in general with people from modern Eritrea and Ethiopia The ancient Egyptian aristocrats Nakht-Ankh and Khnum-Nakht were also found to belong to the M1a1 subclade. The half-brothers lived during the 12th Dynasty, with their tomb located at the Deir Rifeh cemetery in Middle Egypt
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
"The decolonization starts with those who did the colonization in the first place. Everything else from class, to race and capitalism is in support of the colonization agenda. The entire paradigm of colonization affects all aspects of human activity and the control of history is a big part of it because it allows them to promote themselves as the basis of all that is good and right in the universe. That is the whole point. And honestly even if the facts contradict them, they will simply revert to might makes right and I don't care if it is wrong I can do what I want. Because they didn't get where they are by doing the right thing and being honorable in the first place."
There are people attempting that, but because class analysis and class struggle are often omitted, replaced with a focus on 'insert identity' relations, and a politics of diversity and inclusion, which is usually along 'identity' line, we're left with a liberal reformism where nothing fundamentally changes.
Posts: 61 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2016
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posted
Exactly, and it does'nt even matter what Hawass or anybody else says, does'nt matter how many revisionist dog whistling DNA studies they use to distort, The descendants of the people of Ta-Seti are still there.
^^^^^ I mean why is this even a debate? These were the Egyptians who were on the throne as early as the 5th Dynasty (Id argue the 3rd with Djoser tbh)
These were the Egyptians who expelled the Hyksos, who forced the 12th Dynasty to create a propaganda piece to explain his non-Royal Egyptian ancestry (Prophecy of Neferti)
These were the people who were retaining authentic Kemetian culture and authority, well into the common era, Rebelling against Greek and Roman rule and were the last to write the Mdu-Ntr on the temple walls.
Who the f-k is Zahi Hiwass or any Arab Egyptologist to tell these people their history?
quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: I mean who cares? We've been on Egyptsearch for how long? Some of us here for DECADES.... We already KNOW Hawass has an anti-African stance, so what's new exactly?
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
There is no debate for those who know and do their own independent study....
When I started out studying this subject years ago I was definitely naive to the Capitalist Economy that is Ancient Egypt/British Egyptology/Modern Arabic Egypt and it's complete ecosystem, involving governments/universities and museums...... all involved are INVESTED and SILENCED by Peer pressure, personal ambition and 200 year old eurocentric orthodoxy/mythology and none of this will change ANYTIME soon... especially after last weeks spectacle.. I am sure the Egyptian government will expect a return on it's investment... so the DNA study will be to prop the Grand Museum.. they need to do tourist numbers especially after almost 2 years of COVID lockdown has devastated Tourism around the world.
quote:The lavish, multimillion-dollar spectacle saw 22 mummies - 18 kings and four queens - transported from the peach-coloured, neo-classical Egyptian Museum to their new resting place 5km (three miles) away.
With tight security arrangements befitting their royal blood and status as national treasures, the mummies were relocated to the new National Museum of Egyptian Civilisation in what is called The Pharaohs' Golden Parade.
They were transported with great fanfare in chronological order of their reigns - from the 17th Dynasty ruler, Seqenenre Taa II, to Ramses IX, who reigned in the 12th Century BC.
TWITTER is where the current Egyptological community is at... it is a very enlightening subject to follow there... all of the zoom seminars, new research are announced on twitter I don't believe there as ever been a time of such a better window of access for the Afrocentric community at large.. we should follow silently observe and learn...
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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posted
Its always been about placating the idea that Europeans and leukoderm peoples are somehow the core of civilization and humanity. Africans, Native Americans and other Asian/Pacific Islander groups are thus outside the norm because Europeans define what the norm is, i.e Stone building, the wheel, cities etc. This is why Ancient Egypt is such a problem, because Egypt was African and did all those things on African terms, its language, art, religion/dieties were African. Outside of trading and some minor cultural influences, Egypt was not "Middle Eastern" and all of those things it did with Middle Easterners Egypt did with Africans further South and to the West and East.
Now the new game is to obfuscate by printing DNA studies in their Dog-whistling non-sense with sensational titles, pretending that somehow DNA (Genotype) implies a skin color (Phenotype) pretending that all blacks(or what Europeans defined as Black) are genetically African and all gentically non Africans are white/non black.
Such a joke, but it works, and the dog-whistlers know it.
The idea that an Arab or any type of invader can come, dig up the bones of another people and dictate what those people were and the origins of the nation/culture that their ancestors built with their blood, sweat and tears, is insulting to say the least.
Hawass can go directly to the War and diplomatic chronicles of the Sutens and Aristocracy to see which population his visage resembles, and the people of Upper Egypt can do the same.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: I mean who cares? We've been on Egyptsearch for how long? Some of us here for DECADES.... We already KNOW Hawass has an anti-African stance, so what's new exactly?
Supposedly they are going to come out with more aDNA data from Egyptian royal mummies next year.
quote:Historical records suggest that a smallpox-like disease has been with us for more than 3,000 years, and might even have killed the young pharaoh Rameses V in the twelfth century BC — although nobody can be certain that he had smallpox or that, if he did, the disease killed him. The latest DNA evidence doesn’t shed any light on that idea, but an Egyptian project to analyse the DNA of royal mummies is scheduled to report in 2022.
But with Hawass expressing the sentiments he does, I question whether it'll cover the mummies' apparent population origins or affinities at all. He doesn't sound like he wants his nationalistic Egypto-centric beliefs challenged either way.
quote:Originally posted by Karem: "The decolonization starts with those who did the colonization in the first place. Everything else from class, to race and capitalism is in support of the colonization agenda. The entire paradigm of colonization affects all aspects of human activity and the control of history is a big part of it because it allows them to promote themselves as the basis of all that is good and right in the universe. That is the whole point. And honestly even if the facts contradict them, they will simply revert to might makes right and I don't care if it is wrong I can do what I want. Because they didn't get where they are by doing the right thing and being honorable in the first place."
There are people attempting that, but because class analysis and class struggle are often omitted, replaced with a focus on 'insert identity' relations, and a politics of diversity and inclusion, which is usually along 'identity' line, we're left with a liberal reformism where nothing fundamentally changes.
As a scientific endeavor the issue is always about facts and evidence and many African scholars are about dealing with facts and evidence, but there are always those who go beyond what is based on facts and evidence. Unfortunately "identity politics" came into the field from the very beginning when they decided to throw out facts and just go with propaganda. So it isn't something that just came into this. This idea of 'identity' has been promoted by European race-science and anthropology for the last 500 years all over the planet.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Karem: "Not to mention since when did modern Egypt care about the ancient past? They sure didn't care about it in the 1700s and 1800s when Europeans invaded and took most of the artifacts. So who are they kidding?"
People like Rifaa Rafi al-Tahtawi, Mustafa Kamil, Ahmad Lutfi al-Sayyid, Sami Gabra and Selim Hassan, just to name a few, were all interested in Ancient Egypt. 1700-1800's and even until 1900's Egypt was under colonial rule.
"Egypt is an Arab republic and Arabs don't see ancient Egypt as "Arab history". This is complete and utter nonsense. Since the numerous invasions and colonization by various European powers explicitly for the purposes of stealing ancient African history, the country see ancient Egypt as an important part of their economy, so of course they will say this."
That depends on the political ideology of whose being asked. Egyptians who believe in a territorial nationalism are more likely to and do embrace their ancient past, where as those into Islamism might not. The French colonization of Egypt in 1798 was mainly concerned with preventing Britain access to India, and throwing off Mamluk rule.
"Salima Ikram isn't even Egyptian, she is a Pakistani"
To what extent does her race/ethnic identity matter ?
They do and did not. When I was in Egypt they told me how bricks were taken from old (ancient ) buildings, to make new buildings with them. No regard for the history and culture whatsoever. I mean, who does that?
Something to read:
"Hawass, Zahi. "Zahi Hawass talks to KMT about matters on the Giza Plateau (Interview)." KMT 8, no. 2 (Summer 1997), pp. 16-25."
Al-'Ubaydiyya (Arabic: العبيدية) was a Palestinian Arab village in the Tiberias Subdistrict. It was depopulated during the 1947–1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine on March 3, 1948. It was located 11 km south of Tiberias, situated close to the Jordan River.
You have linked Britannica
it says:
Zahi Hawass, (born May 28, 1947, Al-ʿUbaydiyyah, Egypt)...
Maybe there are two places named this ? It says right in the beginning of the Britannica
Al-ʿUbaydiyyah, Egypt
I haven't had much success researching it
_________________________
Ubayd Allah al-Mahdi Billah a.k.a Said ibn Husayn (Arabic: عبيد الله بن الحسين المهدي) is considered the founder of the Fatimid dynasty, the only major Shi'ite caliphate in Islam. He established Fatimid rule throughout much of North Africa. He ruled from 909 to 934.
I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't even exist in Egypt and this SCA plant just made up some story. I mean, he's a "world-renowned archaeologist " after all, but nothing is known about his place? That's nearly impossible. And it's even more so not impossible to not find such place with a geographical map locator in 2021. However, it keeps referring to the district of Tiberias. And that right there could / would explain why Hawass referred to Palatine in the article posted by Yatunde Lisa.
Either the author doesn't know where it is or…something else weird is going on. When did Hawass release this info? Was it before the age of online geographical map locators? If so he pulled the scam of the century, but for now I just give him the benefit of the doubt. Arab- apologists and Eurocentric's sure would have splattered the place on Wikideia, and even there it's not found?
quote: Damietta, Arabic Dumyāṭ, also spelled Dimyat, city, capital of Dumyāṭ muḥāfaẓah (governorate), in the Nile River delta, Lower Egypt, on the Mediterranean coast. Damietta, the port of the governorate, is located 8 miles (13 km) from the Mediterranean, on the right (east) bank of the Damietta branch of the Nile. The name is a corruption of the ancient Coptic Tamiati.
[…]
Damietta was an important city of ancient Egypt and was formerly closer to the sea than it is at present. It declined with the development of Alexandria (after 322 BCE). In 638 CE it fell to Arab invaders, who made it a commercial centre famous for its textiles. Frequently attacked by the Crusaders, it was only briefly in their hands (1219–21; 1249–50). The settlement’s vulnerability to sea attacks led the Mamlūk sultan Baybars I (reigned 1260–77) to raze the town and fortifications, block access to the Damietta branch of the river, and erect a new town called Damietta 4 miles (6.4 km) inland on the present site. During both the Mamlūk and the Ottoman periods, the town was used as a place of banishment. After the construction in 1819 of the Maḥmūdiyyah Canal, which diverted much of the Nile’s shipping to Alexandria, Damietta’s importance as a trade centre diminished, although it retained some trade, principally with Syria.
posted
A little bit more about the University of Pennsylvania Supreme and Council of Antiquities found by Auguste Mariette.
quote: Zahi Hawass, (born May 28, 1947, Al-ʿUbaydiyyah, Egypt), Egyptian archaeologist and public official, whose magnetic personality and forceful advocacy helped raise awareness of the excavation and preservation efforts he oversaw as head of Egypt’s Supreme Council of Antiquities (SCA). He served as Egypt’s minister of antiquities in 2011.
Hawass won a Fulbright fellowship and enrolled in a Ph.D. program in Egyptology at the University of Pennsylvania, from which he graduated in 1987.
quote:Those who serve to preserve antiquities are in charge of the conservation and preservation of antiquities, as well as research and often give interviews and report on discoveries and work being done.[9] In the 21st century they also face the difficult task of keeping monuments safe from a fringe of Islamist radicals who want the destruction of pharanoic monuments.[10][11] Their official titles, depending on the years they served, have ranged from Director, to Director-General, to Chairman to Minister.[12][1] The position may entail also, as was done by Zahi Hawass for many years, to stimulate tourism to Egypt, with charm and charisma.[13] Sayed Tawfik was an Egyptologist who served from 1989–1990, when the body was called the Egyptian Antiquities Organization.[14] At the end of 2011, Dr. Mohamed Ibrahim Aly was named antiquities minister and he promised to give new life to the body, by bringing in young archeologists and restarting projects which had been put on hold.[15]
Credits: Produced by Penn Museum, Penn Museum Education Department, and Annenberg TV. Narrated by David O’Connor, Egyptian Section Senior Curator. Technical Producer Ellen Reynolds, Graphics Ron Schindlinger, Written and Directed by Michael Wakely. Funded by Pew Charitable Trusts and NEH This production was likely shown in the gallery of the exhibit of the same title. There is a mix of live footage taken in modern Sudan and Egypt, maps of the region and delineation of ancient Nubian areas, and footage and stills of ancient artifacts, murals and architecture. The program gives an overview of the history of Nubia and its relationship to Egyptian kingdoms. “Ancient Nubia: Egypt’s Rival in Africa” Oct 10, 1992–Oct 3, 1993 (extended to Nov 7, 1993
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: A little bit more about the University of Pennsylvania Supreme and Council of Antiquities found by Auguste Mariette.
quote: Zahi Hawass, (born May 28, 1947, Al-ʿUbaydiyyah, Egypt), Egyptian archaeologist and public official, whose magnetic personality and forceful advocacy helped raise awareness of the excavation and preservation efforts he oversaw as head of Egypt’s Supreme Council of Antiquities (SCA). He served as Egypt’s minister of antiquities in 2011.
Hawass won a Fulbright fellowship and enrolled in a Ph.D. program in Egyptology at the University of Pennsylvania, from which he graduated in 1987.
quote:Those who serve to preserve antiquities are in charge of the conservation and preservation of antiquities, as well as research and often give interviews and report on discoveries and work being done.[9] In the 21st century they also face the difficult task of keeping monuments safe from a fringe of Islamist radicals who want the destruction of pharanoic monuments.[10][11] Their official titles, depending on the years they served, have ranged from Director, to Director-General, to Chairman to Minister.[12][1] The position may entail also, as was done by Zahi Hawass for many years, to stimulate tourism to Egypt, with charm and charisma.[13] Sayed Tawfik was an Egyptologist who served from 1989–1990, when the body was called the Egyptian Antiquities Organization.[14] At the end of 2011, Dr. Mohamed Ibrahim Aly was named antiquities minister and he promised to give new life to the body, by bringing in young archeologists and restarting projects which had been put on hold.[15]
Credits: Produced by Penn Museum, Penn Museum Education Department, and Annenberg TV. Narrated by David O’Connor, Egyptian Section Senior Curator. Technical Producer Ellen Reynolds, Graphics Ron Schindlinger, Written and Directed by Michael Wakely. Funded by Pew Charitable Trusts and NEH This production was likely shown in the gallery of the exhibit of the same title. There is a mix of live footage taken in modern Sudan and Egypt, maps of the region and delineation of ancient Nubian areas, and footage and stills of ancient artifacts, murals and architecture. The program gives an overview of the history of Nubia and its relationship to Egyptian kingdoms. “Ancient Nubia: Egypt’s Rival in Africa” Oct 10, 1992–Oct 3, 1993 (extended to Nov 7, 1993
A better presentation would be Kemet and the Nile Valley region a cultural and historical synthesis. They love to use "Nubia" as some kind of barrier between Egypt and Africa but Egypt is a development of the Nile Valley as a historical process spanning over 10,000 years. It is silly to put "Nubia" in the middle of this as if that separates Kemet from the full span of Nile history going back all those years.
Keep in mind Kemet is not Egypt. Kemet is the original native civilization, Egypt is the Greco-Roman colony and subsequent nation state based on foreign domination and identity.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: A better presentation would be Kemet and the Nile Valley region a cultural and historical synthesis. They love to use "Nubia" as some kind of barrier between Egypt and Africa but Egypt is a development of the Nile Valley as a historical process spanning over 10,000 years. It is silly to put "Nubia" in the middle of this as if that separates Kemet from the full span of Nile history going back all those years.
Keep in mind Kemet is not Egypt. Kemet is the original native civilization, Egypt is the Greco-Roman colony and subsequent nation state based on foreign domination and identity.
I posted this sources to get a better understanding what is behind Zahi Hawass his reasoning. But it's indeed a Nile Valley culture.
In that 1992 video The Penn Museum museum mentioned four "races within mankind" known to ancient Egyptians. The Libyan, Egyptian, Nubian and Asiatic. This made me wonder, where was the European?
I went looking for the Seti I Tomb image to use here, and I bumped in to this LOony tHinG below, which shows the dangers of the Zahi Hawass rhetoric and such.
Before watching take in some extra nutrients as prevention to brain cell loss.
The Races of Mankind : Egyptian wall Art shows the truth 2018 Seti I Tomb
Dr. Josef Wegner, Associate Curator, Egyptian Section, Penn Museum, and Associate Professor, Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations, University of Pennsylvania.
Some of the earliest cities in the world arose along the banks of the Nile. Millennia of change have obscured the remains of these once-great urban centers. Archaeology is increasingly revealing the characteristics of some of these cities of Egypt’s past. The lecture will look at some the earliest, and greatest, cities of the civilization of the pharaohs.
Rise of the City: The Lost Cities of Ancient Egypt (2017), Penn Museum.
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