quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Hot sauce! So Tiggas was boogyin in Stuttgart and doo that far back, ah dang.
Check the Turqoise K, it's the one I mean. Like you said, high today in Nilo-Saharans. Crosses language families a little but then I'm with that guy who said a zone of language confluence makes for loose distinction between certain "Greenberg families" across Sahel and adjacent Sahra folks. Can't say he had Cushitic in mind.
ANA is probably the primary signal that links Maghrebi North Africans to Eastern North Africans, well that and the allegedly 'West Eurasian' Dzudzuana-like ancestry that also links Mediterranean Europeans as well as some minor 'Sub-Saharan' components. Speaking of which, the claims of Antalas are hilarious considering that his own alleged people-- modern-day Berbers/Amazigh-- are outliers among the Western Eurasian cluster that includes North Africans simply because of a higher frequency of Sub-Saharan ancestry than even modern Northeast Africans as well as having the least amount of more 'easterly' influences i.e. EHG and especially ANE that again even show up in Northeast Africans.
The problem of course is that there are still gaps in sampling both spatially and chronologically between the Maghreb and Misr (Egypt). We know that there is a genetic link between the Natufians and successor Neolithic Levant with the Egypto-Nubians and as far south the Nile Valley as the Kenyan Neolithic. The question concerns the forebears of proto-Amazigh speakers though clues to them may be found in the eastern Berbers especially the Siwans who show the most 'Egyptian-like' profile while having less Arab-Levantine influence. Another key is the Cavalli-Sforza autosomal study showing a striking close relation between the Beja nomads of the east and the Tuareg nomads of the west.
As for the north-south cline, we are missing important DNA samples from the central part of the Sahara that could very well be the source of ANA and thus the link to Nilo-Saharan speakers. By the way, there were/are tiny isolated languages that Greenberg grouped into Nilo-Saharan which later linguists realized are isolates and not truly related to Nilo-Saharan which makes me wonder what other language families or populations existed in the Green Sahara which we know nothing about.
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quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: My understanding is that Dzudzuana is itself a cross between West Eurasian and "Basal Eurasian", with the latter possibly being of African origin just like ANA. That would leave the sampled Iberomaurisian ancestry as essentially ANA + BE + actual Eurasian ancestry.
This is my understanding as well. In fact Chris Stringer et al. confirms this in Origins of modern human ancestry identifying BE's earliest known spread in Eurasia as being in the area of modern Georgia (of the Caucasus) 26k years BP. Second to that is of course the Persian Gulf region.
According to the Lazaridis 2018 Paleolithic Caucasus study: We first estimated FST, a measure of population genetic differentiation, to assess the genetic relationships between ancient West Eurasian populations (Extended Data Table 1; Methods). Post-glacial Near Easterners and North Africans (PGNE) (CHG, Natufians, Taforalt Ibero-Maurusians from North Africa, and early Neolithic farmers from Anatolia, Iran, the Levant, and the Maghreb) are strongly differentiated from all European and Siberian hunter-gatherers (ESHG) (FST = 0.078−0.267). By contrast, Dzudzuana is genetically closer to both contemporaneous Gravettians from Europe (0.051±0.012) and also to the much later Neolithic Anatolian farmers (0.039±0.005) who are genetically closest to them according to this measure. Genetic drift inflates FST over time, so the affinity to the Gravettians may partly be due to the great age of these samples. However, age cannot explain the affinity to much later Neolithic Anatolians of ~8kya, a population closer to Dzudzuana than any other PGNE (0.052−0.195).
It's interesting that Maghrebi both modern and ancient (Iberomaurusian) possess high frequencies of Anatolian Neolithic a.k.a. EEF yet in Y chromosome are E-M81 and E-M35 respectively.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: It's interesting that Maghrebi both modern and ancient (Iberomaurusian) possess high frequencies of Anatolian Neolithic a.k.a. EEF yet in Y chromosome are E-M81 and E-M35 respectively.
It may be of interest that there's evidence for the E-M81 in Maghrebis having undergone a bottleneck around the time of the destruction of Carthage after the Third Punic War. So maybe populations in the region prior to that had more E-M35.
posted
^ Yes, I remember Lioness's thread on the topic here. What I also find interesting is that second to E-M81 is E-M75 (E2) that has its highest frequency in Berbers among the Tuareg.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yes, I remember Lioness's thread on the topic here. What I also find interesting is that second to E-M81 is E-M75 (E2) that has its highest frequency in Berbers among the Tuareg.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yes, I remember Lioness's thread on the topic here. What I also find interesting is that second to E-M81 is E-M75 (E2) that has its highest frequency in Berbers among the Tuareg.
E-M81 is Maghreb descendant of E-M78
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E-M81 is part of E1 and descends from E1b1b1 (E-M35) add an additional "b" E-M81 (E1b1b1b) (and there are a couple of stages in between as well)
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I do remember info posted here some years ago that Tuareg and other Saharans possess E2-M75 especially the Zenaga clan. So maybe you could look that up.
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I do remember info posted here some years ago that Tuareg and other Saharans possess E2-M75 especially the Zenaga clan. So maybe you could look that up.
The Zenata population, also called Zenet or Iznaten, is an ethnic Berber group in North Africa that is spread from Libya to Morocco. They speak a Berber dialect called Zenet or Zetani, which have some similitude with other Berber dialects. The Zenata individuals sampled are residents in the city of Timimoun, a little oasis village in Adrar Province, in the Gourara region (West Algerian Sahara).
To describe the relationships among Algerian samples, principal component analysis (PCA) and multidimensional scaling (MDS) analyses were performed. The PCA plot performed on the Y-chromosome haplogroup frequencies (Fig 2) shows that both Oran and Algiers samples are clustered together, respectively, and the first PCA component separates the northern populations (Oran and Algiers) from the Mozabite and the Reguibate, which present higher frequencies of haplogroup E1b1b1b-M81 whereas E1b1b1a-M78 is absent in the southern populations.
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To my knowledge Sanhaja incl Zenatta, Zenaga are not Tuareg (but some may dispute it)
The Sanhaja (Berber languages: Aẓnag, pl. Iẓnagen, and also Aẓnaj, pl. Iẓnajen; Arabic: صنهاجة, Ṣanhaja) were once one of the largest North African tribal confederations, along with the Iznaten and Imesmuden confederations. Many tribes in Morocco and Mauritania bore and still carry this ethnonym, especially in its Berber form. Other names for the population include Zenata, Zenaga, Znaga, Sanhája, Sanhâdja and Senhaja.
Senhaja population in Morocco 55,000 Total in all countries ?
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As we see here in the chart E2-M75 is zero in all populations in the study However we see here Zenata 22.86% E1b1a-M2 which is considered sub-saharan and their M81 48.57%
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posted
^ Well in that case, I stand corrected. Thank you for the fact-checking and again my belief about E2 in Tuareg and other Saharans was based solely on what I've read years ago on this forum.
And to show that I'm not making things up, the source of my claim comes directly from Rasol who mentioned here:
quote:Taureg lineages vary greatly but in some genetic study they show as having as much as 30% E3b [east african], 30% native E1 and E2 [sahelian/west african], and 30% E3a [west african. They have very little in the way of a Arabian component usually less than 10%, so they definitely do not originate in Arabia.
I had no reason not to believe this since he usually backs up his claim with sources. The Cavelli-Sforza source on the autosomal affinities between Tuareg and Beja still hold true.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Old comments on nrY may not apply today if only letternumber IDed instead of letternumbermutation.
Y Consortium keeps track of letternumber chamges over the years as improved methodologies and sampling has yielded more sub-haplogroups. So the Y tree is not static.
The mutation never changes. That's why it's the prefered way to ID MSY clades.
Stumbled across the remains used to compose some of the Lazaridis/Reisch acronymed "genomic groupings". Can't recall how I compiled it but the main thing is is it correct. Then the other acronyms need the same treatment if applicable. I mean I accept data pooling much more readily than statistical entities, not saying such don't sometimes "predict" remains not yet found.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Old comments on nrY may not apply today if only letternumber IDed instead of letternumbermutation.
Y Consortium keeps track of letternumber chamges over the years as improved methodologies and sampling has yielded more sub-haplogroups. So the Y tree is not static.
The mutation never changes. That's why it's the prefered way to ID MSY clades.
Yeah that's what I thought. So they refined the NRY classifications. Of course it seems they mainly do this with E clade-- the one clade that bridges Sub-Saharans to Eurasians.
Stumbled across the remains used to compose some of the Lazaridis/Reisch acronymed "genomic groupings". Can't recall how I compiled it but the main thing is is it correct. Then the other acronyms need the same treatment if applicable. I mean I accept data pooling much more readily than statistical entities, not saying such don't sometimes "predict" remains not yet found.
So of these initial finds is it only WHG EEF and ANE based on human remains?
BE and ENA don't look like from any sampled aDNA?
Basal Eurasian was at first only hinted at in living populations of the Middle East and was only later confirmed by the Dzudzuana study. The same with with ENA. ENA diverged from BE, with ENA having its highest frequency in Eastern Eurasian populations.
Map of West Eurasian populations and Principal Component Analysis (a) Geographical locations of analyzed samples, with color coding matching the PCA. We show all sampling locations for each population, which results in multiple points for some (e.g., Spain). (b) PCA on all present-day West Eurasians, with ancient and selected eastern non-African samples projected. European hunter-gatherers fall beyond present-day Europeans in the direction of European differentiation from the Near East. Stuttgart clusters with other Neolithic Europeans and present-day Sardinians. MA1 falls outside the variation of present-day West Eurasians in the direction of southern-northern differentiation along dimension 2.
As for ANA, the label was never coined by Lazaridis himself but by others who first noticed this differentiated signal from BE and other West Eurasian signals in the Dzudzuana study.
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: Pastorilists tend to adopt languages... Pul, Fula may have adopted Niger Congo... I am sure Somalia is connected to ancient Egypt... but that does not diminish other groups connection to ancient Egypt.. Egypt has been removed from Africa by Eurocentrist and racist egyptologist...
But by studying different West African groups and their own oral histories, cultures and folk ways those connections and ties are there... for those who are looking and want to make the connections for those who don't they won't look because they don't want those connections to be made Schrodinger's cat and all that..
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: We'll need more aDNA samples from ancient Egypt to see which African groups they would be most closely related to. I suspect the majority of their African ancestry is going to be local to northeastern Africa (i.e. something like "Basal Eurasian" or ANA), but they might have at least a little admixture from southern Sudanic Nilotes as well as maybe an Omotic-like population. However, I would not rule out some ancestry being shared between Nile Valley and West African populations via the Green Sahara, especially since we know the latter have some ANA ancestry.
That Fulani have ANA was first noticed as far back as 2012 by the likes of Razib Khan in his Discover Magazine article The Fulani Have an Old "Berber" (?) Element The Fulani (Fula) people of the western Sahel seem to have a relatively old West Eurasian component which has distinct affinities with the "Maghrebi" element discerned by Henn et al. In fact, the non-Sub-Saharan African ancestry of the Fulani is almost exclusively of this origin. To me this serves as a peculiar mirror of what you see in the Cushitic and Ethiopian Semitic peoples of the far east of the Sahel-Sudan latitudinal region. These populations also seem to be compounds of a Sub-Saharan Africa element with a West Eurasian one, but in their case the admixture is almost exclusively from a Southwest Eurasian (Arabian) component. Geographically these two symmetric admixture events make sense, but the exclusivity is still a bit surprising. Additionally, in both the case of the Fulani and the Ethiopian and Cushitic groups the admixture is widely distributed and even enough to imply that they are old events. I also assumed this because in some admixture runs a "pure" Fulani cluster partitions out, which is not unexpected for stabilized hybrid populations (all human populations are stabilized hybrids if you go back far enough).
This was later confirmed by 2015 Triska et al. paper that I cited before.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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posted
^ I'm weary about any claims of West Africans having direct ancestry from the Nile Valley. If anything, I think they rather have a shared ancestry with the Nile Valley via the Central Saharan cultures that existed in the Holocene Green Sahara.
In fact autosomal studies prove this with the Egyptians have some markers in common with West Africans but not others.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I'm weary about any claims of West Africans having direct ancestry from the Nile Valley. If anything, I think they rather have a shared ancestry with the Nile Valley via the Central Saharan cultures that existed in the Holocene Green Sahara.
In fact autosomal studies prove this with the Egyptians have some markers in common with West Africans but not others.
Which West Africans are you talking about?
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I'm weary about any claims of West Africans having direct ancestry from the Nile Valley. If anything, I think they rather have a shared ancestry with the Nile Valley via the Central Saharan cultures that existed in the Holocene Green Sahara.
In fact autosomal studies prove this with the Egyptians have some markers in common with West Africans but not others.
Which West Africans are you talking about?
And I don't care what anyone "thinks" or is "weary" of... I know what I know from hard study...if you don't want to know.. that is up to you.. it does not change much what you "think"
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I'm weary about any claims of West Africans having direct ancestry from the Nile Valley. If anything, I think they rather have a shared ancestry with the Nile Valley via the Central Saharan cultures that existed in the Holocene Green Sahara.
In fact autosomal studies prove this with the Egyptians have some markers in common with West Africans but not others.
Which West Africans are you talking about?
And I don't care what anyone "thinks" or is "weary" of... I know what I know from hard study...if you don't want to know.. that is up to you.. it does not change much what you "think"
How would you model an ancient Egyptian? Particularly the ones who migrated into West Africa.
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: Which West Africans are you talking about?
I'm specifically referring to West Africans of the Sahara and Sahel. I don't buy into the fabrication that all West Africans from Mandika to Yoruba are Nile Valley descendants. I know Moustafa Gadalla's book Exiled Egyptians is popular among some Africanist circles, though as much as I respect Gadalla and his work I think this specific claim is wrong (for the most part). I say for the most part, because we know that up to late dynastic times Kmt has had trade routes going into the western oases and beyond, perhaps since the predynastic and that certain nomadic groups at the collapse of Egypt may have traversed west just as others traveresed east is more than probable.
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posted
^ Yes, the way some Africans like to fabricate genealogies of their people originating from the east-- like Jerusalem or Mecca depending on the religion for prestige purposes. This is no different from Europeans who when discovering ancient ruins in Sub-Sahara like Great Zimbabwe, postulate (fabricate) foreign settlment from Arabia or Phoenicia.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yes, the way some Africans like to fabricate genealogies of their people originating from the east-- like Jerusalem or Mecca depending on the religion for prestige purposes. This is no different from Europeans who when discovering ancient ruins in Sub-Sahara like Great Zimbabwe, postulate (fabricate) foreign settlment from Arabia or Phoenicia.
"fabrication" is an overstatement
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yes, the way some Africans like to fabricate genealogies of their people originating from the east-- like Jerusalem or Mecca depending on the religion for prestige purposes. This is no different from Europeans who when discovering ancient ruins in Sub-Sahara like Great Zimbabwe, postulate (fabricate) foreign settlment from Arabia or Phoenicia.
"fabrication" is an overstatement
Especially when a group would know their own history better than any outsider.I can understand outside influence changing the origin of story of a particular group but how often does one find that?
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yes, the way some Africans like to fabricate genealogies of their people originating from the east-- like Jerusalem or Mecca depending on the religion for prestige purposes. This is no different from Europeans who when discovering ancient ruins in Sub-Sahara like Great Zimbabwe, postulate (fabricate) foreign settlment from Arabia or Phoenicia.
"fabrication" is an overstatement
Especially when a group would know their own hist better than any outsider.I can understand outside influence changing the origin of story of a particular group but how often does one find that?
Its very common, pretty much every Muslim group in Africa claim descent from Saudi Arabia or Yemen.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yes, the way some Africans like to fabricate genealogies of their people originating from the east-- like Jerusalem or Mecca depending on the religion for prestige purposes. This is no different from Europeans who when discovering ancient ruins in Sub-Sahara like Great Zimbabwe, postulate (fabricate) foreign settlment from Arabia or Phoenicia.
"fabrication" is an overstatement
Especially when a group would know their own hist better than any outsider.I can understand outside influence changing the origin of story of a particular group but how often does one find that?
Its very common, pretty much every Muslim group in Africa claim descent from Saudi Arabia or Yemen.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: "fabrication" is an overstatement
Especially when a group would know their own history better than any outsider. I can understand outside influence changing the origin of story of a particular group but how often does one find that?
Of course a group would know their own history better, and in particular specialists like griots and elders. The problem is that these traditional experts tend to get replaced by newer authorities based on foreign religions. Hence, again certain Africans claiming descent from Jews of Jerusalem or Arabs from Mecca! There are those less obvious and instead claim descent from Egypt but are no less inauthentic.
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quote:Originally posted by Mansamusa: You mean the Euronuts will NOT take it well? If true, the analysis shows that Natufians really ain't all that, and are probably the source of ANA in neighboring SW Asian ancient populations and not a source of Levant Neolithic ancestry in Ancient African populations like Kenyan PN or modern Horners.
The Eurasian back migration fetish in Africa that is so prominent in the genetic blogging community needs to be toppled. At this point, it's embarrassing. The Horner and N. African tribalists fantasize about their prehistoric ancestors mating with Eurasians in Africa and setting them apart from SSAs.
The last paragraph is very true.
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I remember how the Euronuts were running around the net with glee in all the biodiversity and genetic blogs with this fake news even trolling all the black and Afrocentric forums. Of course even Lioness was doing her part in promoting it in this forum until the news of the error came out. Now they're as silent as scared crickets! LOL
Meanwhile they still have yet to address the elephant in the room as shown below as Tukuler cited:
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Lioness was doing her part in promoting it in this forum until the news of the error came out. Now they're as silent as scared crickets! LOL
You are constantly trying to rekindle conflict or imagined conflict to try to self validate as self appointed champion of black racial purity and you attempt false guilt by association. You are a very petty individual and others on the forum know it
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: "fabrication" is an overstatement
Especially when a group would know their own history better than any outsider. I can understand outside influence changing the origin of story of a particular group but how often does one find that?
Of course a group would know their own history better, and in particular specialists like griots and elders. The problem is that these traditional experts tend to get replaced by newer authorities based on foreign religions. Hence, again certain Africans claiming descent from Jews of Jerusalem or Arabs from Mecca! There are those less obvious and instead claim descent from Egypt but are no less inauthentic.
I need a specific ethnic group (s) and origin story ( ies)
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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Of course not all people of the groups I mentioned above agree with such silly assertions, but a good number do because of religious privileges. It's not an African or black phenonmenon either. Before the Black Hebrew Israelites of America hundreds of years ago there were the British Hebrew Israelites-- white British who claim Hebrew ancestry.
So you see why I'm weary of the claims of some indigenous folk having foreign ancestry from some 'prestigious' group.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: You are constantly trying to rekindle conflict or imagined conflict to try to self validate as self appointed champion of black racial purity and you attempt false guilt by association. You are a very petty individual and others on the forum know it
No, lying one! Just because I busted you on your support of an absurd theory that most Sub-Saharan Africans including Khoisan have Eurasian admixture, does NOT make me a "champion of black racial purity"! LMAO
You, just like the rest of your Euronut ilk attempt to project your insecurities of racial impurity (having 1/3 recent African ancestry) onto Africans hence the obsession with back-migrations and even latching on to the silly theory as mentioned above. Of course when it came out that there was an error in the genome reading and you and the other neandernuts scattered. That's not my problem!
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Of course not all people of the groups I mentioned above agree with such silly assertions, but a good number do because of religious privileges. It's not an African or black phenonmenon either. Before the Black Hebrew Israelites of America hundreds of years ago there were the British Hebrew Israelites-- white British who claim Hebrew ancestry.
So you see why I'm weary of the claims of some indigenous folk having foreign ancestry from some 'prestigious' group.
Your amateur opinions are inconsequential and meaningless in the grand scheme of things and literally know one cares what a keyboard warrior thinks.
Publish something to dispute the claims. Provide evidence and prosecute the claims as false.
Show hard evidence that says the Igbo, Hausa, Yoruba claims are false
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: Your amateur opinions are inconsequential and meaningless in the grand scheme of things and literally know one cares what a keyboard warrior thinks.
LOL What opinion? I just stated FACT and cited evidence to support it!
quote:Publish something to dispute the claims. Provide evidence and prosecute the claims as false.
The burden of proof is NOT on me but on those who make the claims to begin with! Those 3 African groups I mentioned (there are many more by the way) have yet to provide any evidence to back up their claims. You might as well ask me to provide evidence that refutes the claims of the White British Israelites! LOL
quote:Show hard evidence that says the Igbo, Hausa, Yoruba claims are false
It's easier to produce evidence of a positive than a negative. If their claims are true how about YOU produce evidence supporting their claims! By the way, not all Igbo and Yoruba even make such claims of foreign ancestry, it is only a minority among them that do and unsurprisingly those who were more than exposed to 'Abrahamic' beliefs. Interestingly, the Hausa legend is one that is held by virtually all Hausa since before European colonialism, but even the legend itself shows no actual evidence of foreign ancestry at least from outside of Africa. In fact not all Hausa historians agree that their patriarch Bayajidda was Arab much less from "Baghdad". Instead, they say he was an African from one of the Sahelian kingdoms likely Kanem Bornu due to the early historical relations between the latter with the proto-Hausa as explained here: Bayajidda, Hausa Historical Legend: Myth or Reality
So you see there are many people groups (though not the groups in entirety) who fabricate foreign origins for prestige. Africans are not the only ones guilty of this. Some Europeans, Indians, and even some Southeast Asians are as well. Should I provide examples of Muslim Indonesians who not only claim to be of Arab ancestry but descended from their prophet Muhammad's family??! LOLPosts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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