quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: Cushite 25th dynasty domination of the Levant via Egypt during the 8th century BC must be taken into consideration when doing this calculus.
quote:HEBREW BIBLE/OLD TESTAMENT Cushite/Ethiopian = Arab
NEW TESTAMENT Cushite/Ethiopian = Nubian (N. Sudan/S. Egypt)
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I think that the label of Biblical Cush vs. Egyptian Kush resulted from the linguistic error of 'false friends' that is is words that seem to be cognate or even related but are not related at all.
Djehuti, the Goldberg book pages you posted say
quote: "In sum, Kush in the Hebrew Bible usually refers to East Africa or South-west Arabia, sometimes to North Arabia or South Israel, and, at least once, to Mesopotamia. The early Greek and Latin translations of the Bible do not distinguish between the different areas, translating them all as "Ethiopia," that is, Nubia. Through these translations the name Kush became exclusively identified with Africa. Descriptions and images of the African Kush, preserved in the Hebrew Bible, will give us a picture of how the land was perceived by the Jews of antiquity. In only a few places does the Bible describe aspects of the topography, resources, and geographical location of Nubia.
(second paragraph of the last smaller type size page and leading up to it )
But after that in the larger size text in the last pages it talks about actual Nubia references Isa 18:1, Job 28:19 and several other verses Such as the the final paragraph:
quote: Apparently de- scribing those who will recognize God and come to worship him, Ps 68:32/31 states that “hashmanim will come out of Egypt; Kush shall stretch out its hands to God."45 The difficult Hebrew word, which occurs but once in the Hebrew Bible, has been translated as meaning either princes, nobles, envoys, or some sort of rich tribute (or those who bring tribute), such as bronze vessels, red cloth, or blue-green wool.46 Although the hashmanim are said to derive from Egypt, not Kush, the parallelism of the two names would indicate an association between them, most probably placing the psalm at the time of the Nubian dynasty of Egypt.
there are a lot of exceptions, where Nubia does seem to be referred to in the Hebrew Bible but elsewhere referring to Arabians, I suppose moreso
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: It is primarily in the New Testament that we see 'Cushite' be identified with Nubians instead of Arabians, and it is at this time that we see more commerce between Nubia and Israel since the 25th Dynasty.
Djehuti, you are saying this man would be classified as a Cushite in the Hebrew Bible, OK maybe
I'm not saying it. The Bible is. Biblical tradition both the Torah and Rabbinic texts equates Arabia as the land of Kush (along with Nubia). This is backed by Assyrian texts that referred to Arabia as 'Kush'. So Arabians are Kushites and references are made to their black skin so yeah I guess the Shammar bedouin man and others of his complexion would fit, your point?
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB) 17 Bible results for “Ethiopia”
Yirmeyah 13:23 Can the Kushi (Ethiopian) change his ohr (skin), or the namer (leopard) his spots? Then may ye also do tov, that are accustomed to do rah.
Yechezkel 30:4 And the cherev shall come upon Mitzrayim, and great anguish shall be in Kush (Ethiopia), when the slain shall fall in Mitzrayim, and they shall take away her wealth, and her yesodot (foundations) shall be broken down.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: It is primarily in the New Testament that we see 'Cushite' be identified with Nubians instead of Arabians, and it is at this time that we see more commerce between Nubia and Israel since the 25th Dynasty.
So tell me if this is what you are saying
The word "Ethiopia" is something used in later Greek translations of Old Testament texts since the word is of Greek origin. The original Hebrew name was 'Kushi' which was used for both Arabians and Nubians.
quote:HEBREW BIBLE/OLD TESTAMENT Cushite/Ethiopian = Arab
NEW TESTAMENT Cushite/Ethiopian = Nubian (N. Sudan/S. Egypt)
Similarly "Moor" takes on different usage in different times periods regardless of etymology
So in each bible do they also refer to the region further South, now in what in modern times is called Ethiopia? If so what word?
The distortion of 'Moor' was done in later history to divorce the label from its black association. Even Egyptians were originally called "Moor".
You are correct that Kush refers to the region further south... but south of what?! In most texts, the references is to south of Edom not Egypt!
Even the context of the name 'Ethiopia' itself has changed with that name originally referring to Sudan and not the modern country of Ethiopia.
Again, I am not discounting the fact that the term was used for Nubia, but as I pointed out earlier there was a difference between Nubian Kash and Arabian Kush that Hebrew texts did not clearly delineate.
quote:qb]KJV
quote:Song of Solomon 1
5 I am black, but comely, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, as the tents of Kedar, as the curtains of Solomon.
6 Look not upon me, because I am black, because the sun hath looked upon me: my mother's children were angry with me; they made me the keeper of the vineyards; but mine own vineyard have I not kept.
Kedar (Heb. קֵדָר), a nomadic tribe or league of tribes in the Arabian Desert.
So she was a dark skinned Arab it seems although their features vary
Biblical The name Qēḏār is often used in the Hebrew Bible to refer to Arabia and Arabs in general,[6] and in a Biblical prophecy, the Juhadite prophet Jeremiah used the names of Kittim (Cyprus) and Qēḏār to refer, respectively, to the western and eastern cardinal points.[8]
The Qedarite capital of Dūmat also appears in the Hebrew Bible, where its population is represented by the sixth son of Ishmael, Dumah, and his descendants. Although the descendants of Dumah had once been tentatively identified with the site of Dūmā (now Deir ed-Dōmeh) near Hebron, or with Mount Seir near Edom, they have since been more decisively and accurately identified with the Qedarite centre of Dūmat.
Dumat al-Jandal (Arabic: دُومَة ٱلْجَنْدَل, romanized: Dūmat al-Jandal, pronounced [ˈduːmat alˈdʒandal]), also known as Al-Jawf or Al-Jouf (Arabic: ٱلْجَوْف),[1] is an ancient city of ruins and the historical capital of the Al Jawf Province, northwestern Saudi Arabia [/QB]
Kedar was one of the 12 Ishmaelite tribes, with their patriarch Ishamael married to an Egyptian and Ishmael himself born of an Egyptian mother Hagar. So already you see southern peoples associated with Egyptians and still identified as 'black'. The tribes of the Sinai are said to descend from Ishmaelites.
Dana is correct that at one time 'Arab' was associated with 'black'. 'Arab' by the way simply meant wild or wilderness.
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: Cushite 25th dynasty domination of the Levant via Egypt during the 8th century BC must be taken into consideration when doing this calculus.
quote:HEBREW BIBLE/OLD TESTAMENT Cushite/Ethiopian = Arab
NEW TESTAMENT Cushite/Ethiopian = Nubian (N. Sudan/S. Egypt)
Yatunde has the right idea. I myself gave examples also using chronological contexts. I wish Tukuler was here as he is more familiar with Torah scriptures than I. But I am sure there are other clues in the texts which may help specify which 'Cushite' is being described
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I think that the label of Biblical Cush vs. Egyptian Kush resulted from the linguistic error of 'false friends' that is is words that seem to be cognate or even related but are not related at all.
Djehuti, the Goldberg book pages you posted say
quote: "In sum, Kush in the Hebrew Bible usually refers to East Africa or South-west Arabia, sometimes to North Arabia or South Israel, and, at least once, to Mesopotamia. The early Greek and Latin translations of the Bible do not distinguish between the different areas, translating them all as "Ethiopia," that is, Nubia. Through these translations the name Kush became exclusively identified with Africa. Descriptions and images of the African Kush, preserved in the Hebrew Bible, will give us a picture of how the land was perceived by the Jews of antiquity. In only a few places does the Bible describe aspects of the topography, resources, and geographical location of Nubia.
(second paragraph of the last smaller type size page and leading up to it )
What I cited from Goldenberg does not contradict my statement. Nubian Kash is not the same as Arabian Cush or Cushan as it was called by Israelites, Assyrians and Babylonians.
Goldenberg is incorrect though to identify the Kassites as Kushites and identify them with Nimrod when Kassites are clearly identified with the northeast (Iranian Plateau).
quote:But after that in the larger size text in the last pages it talks about actual Nubia references Isa 18:1, Job 28:19 and several other verses Such as the the final paragraph:
quote: Apparently de- scribing those who will recognize God and come to worship him, Ps 68:32/31 states that “hashmanim will come out of Egypt; Kush shall stretch out its hands to God."45 The difficult Hebrew word, which occurs but once in the Hebrew Bible, has been translated as meaning either princes, nobles, envoys, or some sort of rich tribute (or those who bring tribute), such as bronze vessels, red cloth, or blue-green wool.46 Although the hashmanim are said to derive from Egypt, not Kush, the parallelism of the two names would indicate an association between them, most probably placing the psalm at the time of the Nubian dynasty of Egypt.
I've read a rabbinc source years ago (I forgot which) that exegeted the Hashmanim to be non other than Ishmaelites/Hagarites since these tribes are of Egyptian descent. Indeed, the prophecy came true since Edomite princes did indeed convert to Judaism and offered tribute to Jerusalem and the Idumean royalty were called Hasmonean. I believe Dana even pointed out that even before the time of Muhammad there were Arabs of prestigious status who called themselves "Hashemite". Even the prophecy of Kush stretching out his hands to God came true since peoples of Arabia as far south as Yemen converted to Judaism since before the destruction of the 2nd Temple tribute from Arabia to Jersusalem came as far south as Sheba. As far as I know there were no Jewish states in Nubia or Kush.
quote:there are a lot of exceptions, where Nubia does seem to be referred to in the Hebrew Bible but elsewhere referring to Arabians, I suppose moreso
Yes that's my point.
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posted
^Another example of Cush being linked to Arabia is NT quoting Jesus as saying the kingdom of Sheba was "at the ends of the earth", which points to present day Yemen, from the perspective of someone living in Palestine. Not to Sudan, as it does not border the open ocean.
Like you said, and as I said earlier, Assyrians, newcomers to Mesopotamia, using the word Cush for some of the same populations implies that this word is older than the bible and the Hebrews, and predates the African Kushite state. Although, like I said earlier, I don't understand why the Egyptian Kush (ie Upper Nubia) would be the oldest recorded use of the consonants, according to modern scholars.
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posted
^ I never heard that claim. Is it consonants or vowels? It was Tukuler who reminded me that the Nubian state of Kesh is different from the Arabian country of Cush as mentioned in both Mesopotamian and Levantine sources. Both use the consonants k-sh so the only difference would be the vowels.
As I said to Lioness, the majority of Biblical references to Cush are that it lay to the south. They never said south up the Nile just south into the deserts pass Edom which is itself to be a mixed ethnic nation comprised of Hebrews mixed with Canaanites and Ishmaelites.
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The Kushites in Arabia and the Kushites in Upper Egypt are the same people or related groups. Mainly the nomadic Beja.
quote:Midianites” and “Asur”: “How the Nation of the Troglodytes were Derived from Abraham by Keturah”. The children of Keturah were named Jokshan, Madan, Midian, Ishbak, Shuah and Dedan (or Judadas). The Genesis chapter also says, the sons "of Jokshan: (were) Sheba and Dedan. The sons of Midian: Ephah, Apher, Hanoch, Abida, and Eldaah. All these were descendants of Keturah”. Josephus in his commentary on the people wrote that Ashurim or Assurim was the child of “Yudadas” a people whom, according to him, were dwelling in ‘western Ethiopia’. Judadas, settled the Judadeans, a nation of the western Ethiopians, and left them his name; as did Sabas [Saba] to the Sabeans…” (See The New Complete Works of Josephus 1999, p.58, Book 1, Chapter 6).
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See my earlier posts in this thread where I first brought this up.
Modern scholars claim the consonants Ksh are first recorded in Egyptian references to the kingdom of Kush, and that Middle Easterners got it from Egypt.
Hence, modern scholarship generally making a mess when they talk about West Asian Cushites as being either:
--Nubians or Abyssinians (totally misinterpreting the ancient meaning of Aethiopian as employed by Homer and early Greeks),
--Iron Age colonies from NE Africa in/near Hijaz (e.g. Midianites and inhabitants of Lachish have been interpreted this way because these regions are close to Africa), or
--Errors due to name similarity with Kassites (since they think biblical Cushites were African, they cannot fathom Cushites in Mesopotamia, and so they invent an explanation involving Kassites).
This is why I brought up the relevance of the idiom "from Shur to Havilah", as it puts these people near where the rivers empty into the Persian Gulf (see your map, earlier in this thread), which is far away from Africa. So we know they are not confined to the parts of Arabia next to Africa (Sinai, Negev, Yemen, etc), which is commonly implied by commentators when they make it an issue of "Africans from Nubia", much in the same way that some online commentators call Arabians with dark skin 'Ethiopians migrants', because they can't mentally deal with/process this type of 'racial' diversity in the Middle East.
All of this confuses the fact that Hamites of the bible also included non-'Caucasian' people native to the southern Asia (e.g. Veddoid populations from Arabia, Ubaidans, Persian Gulf Oasis migrants, South Asian mtDNA M found in Sumerians), as well as African migrants that predate biblical characters and would therefore not be accurately referred to as Nubian newcomers (e.g. Akkadians).
Bible commentators make these errors often, and the uncertain link with the African Kush has a lot to do with it. Some scholars are genuinely confused (because they think the word is an African ethnonym), but others are exploiting this confusion because it's a convenient way to ignore the elephant in the room and keep Mesopotamia free of racial contradictions that have always haunted some Euro scholars (e.g. it seems important to the mental well-being of some Euro scholars to repeat often to themselves and their audience that "civilization and writing in Caucasian Mesopotamia was older than in African Egypt". And Cushites in Mesopotamia complicate that narrative.).
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^Another example of Cush being linked to Arabia is NT quoting Jesus as saying the kingdom of Sheba was "at the ends of the earth", which points to present day Yemen, from the perspective of someone living in Palestine. Not to Sudan, as it does not border the open ocean.
One other example of a West Asian Cushite from the bible, who was definitely not African, was "Three times Evil Cushan", a ruler from Mesopotamia whose name I don't remember.
Kush was the Egyptian name (#35) for the area to the south of Egypt extending deep into East Central Africa. Its border with Egypt ranged from between the first and second cataracts (waterfalls) of the Nile during the early Egyptian dynasties down to the fourth cataract in the biblical period. The name Kush, first found in Egyptian texts from the twentieth century B.C.E. , was taken over into several languages of the ancient Near East, including Babylonian (kas), Assyrian (kusu), Old Persian (kusa), Old Nubian (kas), and Hebrew (kis).
The curse of Ham : race and slavery in early Judaism, Christianity, and Islam by Goldenberg, David M., 1947-
[QUOTE] In the Hebrew Bible the term Kush usually designates this area in Africa south of Egypt including the lands bordering the Red Sea. So, for example, Ezek 29:10 indicates that Kush was geographically situated in an area south of Egypt, beginning at Syene (i.e., Aswan) .” The same information is provided by the Greek geographer Strabo (b. 64/63 B.c.E.).® References to this African Kush in the Bible are common , especially where Kush is paired with Egypt (Isa 20:3—4, 43:3, 45:14; Ezek 29:10, 30:4, 9; cf. Dan 11:43; Nah 3:9; Ps 68:32).? Similarly, the line from Jeremiah (13:23), “Can the Kushite change his skin?” refers to the dark-skinned Nubian. The Kaushite dynasty of Egypt is referred to a few times in the Bible, most notably in 2 Kgs 19:9 (= Isa 37:9) where Tirhaqa, who reigned as one of the Kushite pharaohs of Egypt between 690 and 633 B.c.£., is called “King of Kush72°/QUOTE]
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In several instances in the Bible, however, “Kush” seems to refer to a location not in Africa. The Table of Nations in Gen 10:7 (and 1 Chron 1:9) lists “the descendants of Kush: Seba, Havilah, Sabtah, Raamah, and Sabteka; the descendants of Raamah: Sheba and Dedan.” Are these descendants or locations in Africa, which would seem to be required, if Kush, the ancestor, is located in Africa? In regard to Seba there are indeed a number of indications arguing for a location in Africa . Isa 43:3 groups together Egypt, Kush, and Seba, thus pointing to an African location.! Isa 45:14 has the same grouping (Egypt, Kush, Sebaites) and characterizes the Sebaites as “tall,” which further points to an African location in view of Isa 18:1—2, “Beyond the rivers of Ethiopia . . . to a people tall and smooth.” !? In addition, Josephus (first century C.E.) and Strabo locate Seba in Africa. Consider also the early Christian traditions that identify the queen of Sheba (= Seba) with the queen of Ethiopia, and the onomastic lists that define Saba, Sabaeans as “Ethiopians.”!+ Some scholars have therefore concluded that Seba is indeed to be located in Africa. 1® Despite this, there is general agreement that the other names of Kush’s descendants (according to some even Seba) correspond to names of peoples who inhabited areas not in Africa but in the southern and southwestern parts of the Arabian peninsula.
There are 2 HAVILAH'S
quote:In one case, Havilah is associated with the Garden of Eden, that mentioned in the Book of Genesis (2:10–11):
And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
In addition to the region described in chapter 2 of Genesis, two individuals named Havilah are listed in the Table of Nations. The Table lists the descendants of Noah, who are considered eponymous ancestors of nations. Besides the name mentioned in Genesis 10:7–29, another is mentioned in the Books of Chronicles (1 Chronicles 1:9–23). One person is the son of Cush, the son of Ham. The other person is a son of Joktan and descendant of Shem.
Title: The student's manual of ancient geography, based upon the Dictionary of Greek and Roman geography Year: 1861
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This, however, does not necessarily mean that the descendants of Kush in Arabia and the African Kushites are of different ethnic stock, for historically there was always movement across the Red Sea and the Sinai peninsula between Africa and Arabia.’” The biblical conception informing the Table of Nations, therefore, that the people on both sides of the Red Sea were ethnically related and descended from the same Kushite ancestor probably reflects the historical situation. This relationship between the peoples on either side of the Red Sea is, incidentally, paralleled in the field of linguistics, where scholars now see a relationship between the respective families of languages and refer to a parent family as Afro-Asiatic/QUOTE]
The curse of Ham : race and slavery in early Judaism, Christianity, and Islam
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The Beja are divided into clans including the Hadharme (Djurhum) or Hadareb, Habab and Hadandawa all of whom tend to resemble each other. They have occupied since ancient times both sides of the Red Sea.
posted
^ I believe Dana associates the Beja with the Saracens and others of the Hejaz. Many people are unaware that the first Islamic invasions or expansion known as 'Al-Fatiha' was done by people who were not called Arab but 'Saracens' and in fact the Romans distinguished the two peoples. There were in fact 3 distinct groups who inhabited the Arabian Peninsula according to Hippolytus of Rome and Uranius during the first half of the third century: the Saraceni, the Arabes, and the Taeni. The Saraceni are associated with the northern region of Arabia Petraea, the Arabes with Arabia Deserta and the Taeni with Arabia Felix.
Perhaps the most telling source comes from soldier and historian Ammianus Marcellinus who wrote this: However, the Saraceni, whom we never found desirable either as friends or as enemies, ranged up and down the country in a brief space of time and destroyed whatever they could find. In doing so, they were like rapacious kites which, whenever they have caught sight of any prey from on high, seize it with swift swoop and quickly take off. Although I recall having told of their customs in my history of the emperor Marcus [in one of the lost books], and several times after that, yet I will now briefly relate a few more particulars about them.
Among those ethne whose original home extends from the Assyrians to the cataracts of the Nile and the frontiers of the Blemmyians (Beja), all alike are warriors of equal rank. They are half-nude, wearing dyed cloaks down to the crotch, ranging widely with the help of swift horses and slender camels in times of peace or of disorder. No man ever grasps a plough-handle or cultivates a tree, none seeks a living by farming. Instead, they roam continually over wide and extensive tracts without a home, without fixed settlements or laws. They cannot endure the same sky for long and the sun of a single district never makes them content.
So apparently there has been intercourse between the Eastern Deserts of Africa and Arabia before the Islamic Period let alone during that time which may explain the West Asian paternal ancestry found among Beja as Lioness cites.
This supports Swenet's point about "From Shur to Havilah".
Here's another source that tries to pinpoint the origins of the Saracens farther south in Arabia- SARACE´NI
Anyway, I have a lot more info on the Saracens which deserves a topic on their own but the point is that these same Saracens were also identified as BLACK to the point that Saracen became as synonymous with black as the word Moor was though Moor was identified with Africans while Saracens with Asiatics. And the Saracens were the dominant people of Arabia before the Arabes proper. Yet notice how the latter has completely displaced the former to the point that not many people today has even heard of the name Saracen except in European football (soccer) teams!
But the main point that Dana made was that Eurocentrists always stressed 'back-migrations' into Africa but tend to ignore Out-of-African migrations into Asia. Her theory was that Africans have been migrating from the Egyptian Eastern deserts into Arabia not only from the time of Proto-Afrisian speakers but afterwards. Hence the myths of Hagar the Egyptian and African settlements in the Hejaz and Yemen since the Neolithic.
Beja
Rashaida
To call Africans like Beja "mixed" but not Arabs is not only hypocritical but dishonest.
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In several instances in the Bible, however, “Kush” seems to refer to a location not in Africa. The Table of Nations in Gen 10:7 (and 1 Chron 1:9) lists “the descendants of Kush: Seba, Havilah, Sabtah, Raamah, and Sabteka; the descendants of Raamah: Sheba and Dedan.” Are these descendants or locations in Africa, which would seem to be required, if Kush, the ancestor, is located in Africa? In regard to Seba there are indeed a number of indications arguing for a location in Africa . Isa 43:3 groups together Egypt, Kush, and Seba, thus pointing to an African location.! Isa 45:14 has the same grouping (Egypt, Kush, Sebaites) and characterizes the Sebaites as “tall,” which further points to an African location in view of Isa 18:1—2, “Beyond the rivers of Ethiopia . . . to a people tall and smooth.” !? In addition, Josephus (first century C.E.) and Strabo locate Seba in Africa. Consider also the early Christian traditions that identify the queen of Sheba (= Seba) with the queen of Ethiopia, and the onomastic lists that define Saba, Sabaeans as “Ethiopians.”!+ Some scholars have therefore concluded that Seba is indeed to be located in Africa. 1® Despite this, there is general agreement that the other names of Kush’s descendants (according to some even Seba) correspond to names of peoples who inhabited areas not in Africa but in the southern and southwestern parts of the Arabian peninsula.
There are 2 HAVILAH'S
quote:In one case, Havilah is associated with the Garden of Eden, that mentioned in the Book of Genesis (2:10–11):
And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
In addition to the region described in chapter 2 of Genesis, two individuals named Havilah are listed in the Table of Nations. The Table lists the descendants of Noah, who are considered eponymous ancestors of nations. Besides the name mentioned in Genesis 10:7–29, another is mentioned in the Books of Chronicles (1 Chronicles 1:9–23). One person is the son of Cush, the son of Ham. The other person is a son of Joktan and descendant of Shem.
Title: The student's manual of ancient geography, based upon the Dictionary of Greek and Roman geography Year: 1861
There are not just two Havilahs but also two Dedans and two Shebas. Many scholars like Alice Linsley have noted that duplication in names is a sign of familial inheritance of that name and the different lineages from which those names arise indicates intermarriage between those lineages. Hence lines of Shem and lines of Ham intermarried even though Shem and Ham are already brothers. This tradition of intermarriage and name inheritance occurs in Genesis Pre-Flood times with the lines of Cain and Seth.
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posted
Saracens are an interesting subject but let's stick to the biblical period and set some parameters.
quote:Page 19
In addition to Kush in Africa and South or Southwest Arabia, there is another people of that name known from the ancient Near East. A group of nomadic or seminomadic tribes located in the Negev or on the southern border of Israel identified as Kushu (kwsw) is mentioned in Middle Egyptian execration texts (nineteenth or eighteenth century B.c.E. ), and possibly in other Egyptian sources as well.?+ Scholars have variously identified these bedouin people behind some of the biblical references to Kush or Kushite, such as Zerah the Kushite (2 Chron 14:8—14, 16:8), the Kushites who were “neighbors of Arabs” (2 Chron 21:16), Kushan
So the " arabs & the kushites" were DISTINGUISHABLE in biblical times.
quote:Page 20
Habakkuk 3:7, and the Kushites in the service of the kings of Judah (2 Sam 18.21ff., Jer 38.7ff.).2° It has also been pointed out that the biblical reference (1 Chron 4:40) to the area of Simeon’s territory near Gedor (or Gerar) as having been formerly inhabited by descendants of Ham (min ham), would support the notion of a Kushite people in the northern Negev at the southern borders of Israel. Simeon’s territory was located in the southern part of ancient Israel bordering on the Negev.?” The existence of a Kushite people in this general area and references to it in the Bible have become well accepted in biblical scholarship .
quote:Page 20
In sum, Kush in the Hebrew Bible usually refers to East Africa or Southwest Arabia, sometimes to North Arabia or South Israel, and, at least once, to Mesopotamia. The early Greek and Latin translations of the Bible do not distinguish between the different areas, translating them all as “Ethiopia,” that is, Nubia. Through these translations the name Kush became exclusively identified with Africa.
The curse of Ham : race and slavery in early Judaism, Christianity, and Islam by Goldenberg, David M., 1947-
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Job 28:19 indicates that gold and topaz (chrysolite) were among the natural resources of Kush/Nubia
quote:One enigmatic passage in the Bible may also point to a Nubian natural resource, although it is not clear what that resource is. Apparently describing those who will recognize God and come to worship him, Ps 68:32/31 states that “hashmanim will come out of Egypt; Kush shall stretch out its hands to God .”*° The difficult Hebrew word, which occurs but once in the Hebrew Bible, has been translated as meaning either princes, nobles, envoys, or some sort of rich tribute (or those who bring tribute), such as bronze vessels, red cloth, or blue-green wool.*° Although the hashmanim are said to derive from Egypt, not Kush, the parallelism of the two names would indicate an association between them, most probably placing the psalm at the time of the Nubian dynasty of Egypt .
quote:of Egyptians being described as dark-skinned. In a midrashic expansion of the biblical story of Abraham’s sojourn in Egypt (Gen 12:10ff), R. “Azariah in the name of R. Yuda ben R. Simon (fourth century) has Abraham say to his wife Sarah on their entrance to Egypt, “Now we are about to enter a place of ugly and dark [people]. ”1°! Another rabbinic text that sees the Egyptians as dark-skinned occurs in a midrash on Ps 68:32/31, “ Hashmanim will come out of Egypt; Kush shall stretch out its hands to God .” We have seen that in this description of those who will recognize God and come to worship Him, the word hashmanim, occurring but once in the Hebrew Bible, has proved to be problematic. Ancient and modern attempts to understand the word have come up with envoys, nobles, ambassadors, or some sort of precious cloth or metal as tribute.'°” The Rabbis in this midrash tried a different approach: “Hashmanim is interpreted as “hashmanim, dark men [‘hanashim shehorim] as it is written ‘|The children of Ham were] Kush and Egypt’ (Gen 10:6) ; (et interchanging with ‘alef).”19%
quote:Page 108
This text understands hashman to be related to ‘ashman, through an interchange of / and ’, and translates ‘ashman as “dark man.” How does the midrash derive this meaning of ‘ashman? The word occurs elsewhere (only once, Isa 59:10) in the Hebrew Bible, in a passage where, based on the context, the traditional interpretation of the word—from the LXX, Targum Jonathan, and Saadia on through the medieval period—was “darkness, place of darkness (the grave), gloom.”!°* In addition, the connection to “dark men” may have suggested itself to the Rabbis through an association of ‘ashman and ‘aswan, that is, Aswan, with a phonetic interchange of m with w (a not uncommon occurrence).!°° “ Ashmanim is then a deliberate although unstated reference to the place-name Aswan (*’aswanim), the traditional border between Egypt and Kush.! °° Note that the verse speaks of both Egypt and Kush. All this, lastly, should not make us lose sight of the fact that the Rabbis are probably engaging in wordplay, reading ‘ashmanim as ‘anashim shehorim. In any case, in this rabbinic interpretation, which is reflected in some versions of the Targum,1°7 we see that dark skin is considered to be a common characteristic of both Kushites and Egyptians.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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^ Ashmanim is not the same as Hashmanim since in Afroasiatic languages especially Semitic is based on consonants, thus the first letter h is just as important as the other consonants. But in regards to precious minerals like gold and topaz, are you aware that such is also found in Arabia, particularly the Hejaz?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Ashmanim is not the same as Hashmanim since in Afroasiatic languages especially Semitic is based on consonants, thus the first letter h is just as important as the other consonants. But in regards to precious minerals like gold and topaz, are you aware that such is also found in Arabia, particularly the Hejaz?
So the Incense Road included trade in gold and precious stones as well as incense
This shouldn't be surprising because geologically the Arabian Plate and the Nubian Plate were joined.
So you are disputing David Goldenberg? On that translation? On the etymology? of Ashmanim/Hashmanim?
The curse of Ham : race and slavery in early Judaism, Christianity, and Islam by Goldenberg, David M., 1947-
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Ashmanim is not the same as Hashmanim since in Afroasiatic languages especially Semitic is based on consonants, thus the first letter h is just as important as the other consonants. But in regards to precious minerals like gold and topaz, are you aware that such is also found in Arabia, particularly the Hejaz?
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: So you are disputing David Goldenberg? On that translation? On the etymology? of Ashmanim/Hashmanim?
The curse of Ham : race and slavery in early Judaism, Christianity, and Islam by Goldenberg, David M., 1947-
In Indo-European languages like Greek or English it is not unusual for the aspirate letter h to be dropped especially if it comes in the beginning of a word. The language we are dealing with is Semitic where every consonant counts so yes I dispute the fact that ashmanim is the same as hashmanim.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
This shouldn't be surprising because geologically the Arabian Plate and the Nubian Plate were joined.
you mean 25 million years ago?
Yes, well that same geological relation that is millions of years old is the reason why western Arabia and eastern Egypto-Sudan have the same mineral resources, Lioness.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Is that a bullwhip? What is the background info on this image?
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^ I'm not certain what the man is holding but I think it's a miswak-- not the modified toothbrush version but its original root form used as a whip for livestock and yes women too in very Islamic cultures. Those three women are his wives.
The photo is of Rashaida Arabs of Eritrea and comes from the Carol Beckwith & Angela Fisher collection. Beckwith is a famous photographer for various magazines including National Geographic while Fisher is an ethnologist who documents rural or tribal cultures. They did collaborations together in a number beautifully illustrated books like Maasai, Faces of Africa, African Ark : People and Ancient Cultures of Ethiopia and the Horn of Africa, Women of the African Ark, African Ceremonies, etc.
The Rashaida or Banu Rasheed are one of the main 9 ethnic groups in Eritrea although they are originally from Arabia. Their tribe was for the most part exiled from Arabia after they lost the civil war to their rivals the Banu Hanifa after WWI and the collapse of the Ottoman Empire since the Hanifa were close allies of the British who helped installed their House of Saud as rulers of most of Arabia.
Here's another photo from Faces of Africa
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^Nice pics. I ask because I know from an article I read months ago that many nomadic cultures apparently used whips as weapons on horseback, but I didn't know Arabs used them as well (and I didn't expect seeing it on a camel rider for uses other than controlling animals, but I guess it makes sense that they'd have it, too).
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^ Nice web article on weaponry. It's just a regular driver's whip not necessarily for martial purposes.
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Nowadays I assume (though I could very well be wrong with this assumption in this case) that a lot of weapons used as attire (Yemeni Jambiya) or relics (SE Asian kris) or showmanship (Chinese wushu spears and swords), etc have been relegated to peaceful purposes but were once used in warfare or other martial purposes, and are in some cases mobilized as regular weapons in times of war. This is especially the case with Tuareg, who own their Takoba swords as family heirlooms and who bring them out for traditional 'dances', but these same swords are never far from use in warfare.
The same is also true for some Chinese martial arts, which have mostly been relegated to exercises now and have lost some of their effectiveness as a result (causing them to be ridiculed by some, like some in the MMA community), but were once used in warfare.
This is why I took it for granted that the camel rider's whip once had martial purposes, as he's not restricting its use in the pic, to control the animal. Though that would assume that the whip is part of the attire of camel riding in that culture (as opposed to being used for herding or something else independent of the camel).
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: The third major Cushite figure is another woman, Tzipporah the wife of Moshe/Moses. She the daughter of the high priest Yethro of Midian and thus a holy woman in her own right as pointed out by Linsley. Many are familiar with the story of Moshe's siblings being struck with leprosy after complaining about him being married to a Cushite. Again there are traditions that this Cushite woman was different from Tzipporah with no evidence from the actual text. According to this tradition which is cited by Josephus, Moses's first wife was a Nubian princess named Tharbis whom he left behind in Egypt when he fled. Interestingly nowhere in Exodus is she mentioned.
Moses Kushite wife, sometimes called Tharbis is an interesting figure who sparked some speculations.
Here is an article about her
quote:ABSTRACT
Most of the time, women's names are not mentioned, words are not put in their mouths or they are not allowed to say a word, and their achievements are behind the scene in the narratives. Passages that mention the presence and contribution of African women in the Bible are especially neglected, perhaps because there are few African women biblical scholars and also deep prejudices against women. References to the African wife of Moses (Numbers 12) are so scanty in the Bible that very few critical biblical scholars noticed them. The purpose of this article is to discuss critically the narrative of the Cushite woman whom Moses married and her marginalisation by the author of the story in Numbers 12:1-10. The narrator of the text did not only refuse to give her a name, there is no single word put in her mouth despite the dominant and significant role her presence played in the narrative. Why is she silent and what does her silence mean? The answers to these questions are discussed in this article.
quote:In Josephus' account, Tharbis was the daughter of an unnamed king of "Saba" (which he claims was in Ethiopia, not Yemen) who lived before the Exodus. In the medieval rabbinic version found in the Sefer HaYashar, she is instead the king's wife, not his daughter, and the king is named Kikianus
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^ Yes, I do recall that scene from the movie (which I haven't seen since I was a kid) but I totally forgot that Nubian princess was Tharbis! Alice Linsley gives some credence to the Tharbis story since it was a tradition among patriarchs to marry at least 2 wives. However, despite how "marginalized" a woman may appear in the the Torah the wives of patriarchs are always named when reference is made to them. This is why most rabbis and scholars identify the Cushite woman with Tzipporah. Also is the premise that if Moses married the Nubian Tharbis before his escape to Midian, his siblings would have complained about it sooner then during the exodus out of Egypt which is when they are to find out about Tzipporah. So it is a very curious passage in Scripture. Is the Cushite woman Tzipporah or someone else.
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In addition to Kush in Africa and South or Southwest Arabia, there is another people of that name known from the ancient Near East. A group of nomadic or seminomadic tribes located in the Negev or on the southern border of Israel identified as Kushu (kwsw) is mentioned in Middle Egyptian execration texts (nineteenth or eighteenth century B.c.E. ), and possibly in other Egyptian sources as well.?+ Scholars have variously identified these bedouin people behind some of the biblical references to Kush or Kushite, such as Zerah the Kushite (2 Chron 14:8—14, 16:8), the Kushites who were “neighbors of Arabs” (2 Chron 21:16), Kushan --Goldenberg, Curse of Ham p.19
As I mentioned, the area of the Negev is the territory of the matriarch Keturah whose six sons by Abraham were Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah.
New Kingdom tile head of Shasu from the Negev
This, however, does not necessarily mean that the descendants of Kush in Arabia and the African Kushites are of different ethnic stock, for historically there was always movement across the Red Sea and the Sinai peninsula between Africa and Arabia.’” The biblical conception informing the Table of Nations, therefore, that the people on both sides of the Red Sea were ethnically related and descended from the same Kushite ancestor probably reflects the historical situation. This relationship between the peoples on either side of the Red Sea is, incidentally, paralleled in the field of linguistics, where scholars now see a relationship between the respective families of languages and refer to a parent family as Afro-Asiatic.--Goldenberg, Curse of Ham p.18
The Mediterranean racial zone stretches unbroken from Spain across the Straits of Gibraltar to Morocco, and thence eastward to India. A branch of it extends far southward on both sides of the Red Sea into southern Arabia, the Ethiopian highlands, and the Horn of Africa. Of the three main Mediterranean sub-races which this zone contains, the most widespread, the most central, the most highly evolved, and most characteristically Mediterranean is the central Mediterranean form, as best exemplified skeletally by the pre-dynastic Egyptians. Today the largest unified area in which this moderate-sized, intermediate Mediterranean racial type is found in greatest purity is the Arabian Peninsula.--Chapter XI, section 2 The Mediterranean race in Arabia of C.S. Coon's Races of Europe
There's a reason why Dana Marniche describes indigenous 'pure-blood' Arabs of northern Hejaz across the sea from Egypt as "Naqada type" in appearance.
In 1879 the famed British adventurer Sir Richard Burton describing the Hamida--a large clan of the Banu Salim bin Auf of Hejaz as, “small chocolate colored beings, stunted and thin… with mops of bushy hair… straggling beards, vicious eyes, frowning brows… armed with scabbards slung over the shoulder and Janbiyyah daggers… a people of the great Hejazi tribe that has kept his blood pure for the last 13 centuries…” (Burton in Personal Narrative of a Pilgrimage to el Medina and Mecca .p. 173 3rd edition William Mullen and Son.)
But earlier in 1829 the famed Swiss adventurer John Ludwig Burckhardt described another tribe of the Asir (southern Hejaz just above Yemen) “The Dowaser are said to be very tall men, and almost black. In former times they used to sell at Mekka ostrich feathers to the northern pilgrims, and many pedlars of Mekka came here in winter to exchange cotton stuffs for those feathers.”
It was Burckhardt's and others' description of southern Arabian tribes that seemed to lead credence to southern Arabia as a probable location of the Biblical Saba.
I even remember as one old source I read years ago of an account from a British traveler to British colonial Egypt where he compared a certain immigrant Arab Bedouin tribe to being very similar in appearance to a Nubians.
Arab bedouin of Sudan
Bedouin of Maan Jordan
Anaiza man of Saudi Arabia
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If you're interested, the Persian Gulf oasis could be something you might want to look into, as far as the source of some of the Cushites mentioned in the bible.
Abstract
The emerging picture of prehistoric Arabia suggests that early modern humans were able to survive periodic hyperarid oscillations by contracting into environmental refugia around the coastal margins of the peninsula. This paper reviews new paleoenvironmental, archaeological, and genetic evidence from the Arabian Peninsula and southern Iran to explore the possibility of a demographic refugium dubbed the “Gulf Oasis,” which is posited to have been a vitally significant zone for populations residing in southwest Asia during the Late Pleistocene and Early Holocene. These data are used to assess the role of this large oasis, which, before being submerged beneath the waters of the Indian Ocean, was well watered by the Tigris, Euphrates, Karun, and Wadi Batin rivers as well as subterranean aquifers flowing beneath the Arabian subcontinent. Inverse to the amount of annual precipitation falling across the interior, reduced sea levels periodically exposed large portions of the Arabo-Persian Gulf, equal at times to the size of Great Britain. Therefore, when the hinterlands were desiccated, populations could have contracted into the Gulf Oasis to exploit its freshwater springs and rivers. This dynamic relationship between environmental amelioration/desiccation and marine transgression/regression is thought to have driven demographic exchange into and out of this zone over the course of the Late Pleistocene and Early Holocene, as well as having played an important role in shaping the cultural evolution of local human populations during that interval. New Light on Human Prehistory in the Arabo-Persian Gulf Oasis https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/657397
Greek texts say "Aethiopians" were along all the southern coasts of Asia. This includes the Middle East in this case, because the Aethiopians were said to be opposite of the northern Scytians. So the Persian Gulf makes a lot of sense as a major source for some of the populations that the bible speaks of as Cushities, but who had no obvious ties to Africans.
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^ You're right. That area (the Persian Gulf) is also where Susa is situated and said to be the home of Memnon. Brandon's thread on ancient Bahraini genomes show the Bronze Age inhabitants to be melanated but showing affinities to South Asians.
Dana Marniche has created threads on Arabia as Eastern Ethiopia. Speaking of which, does anyone have her email address? I must've accidentally deleted her from my list and I have been meaning to correspond with her again.
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