posted
In Wikipedia´s article about Egypt–Mesopotamia relations one gets the impression that Mesopotamia contributed a lot to the development of the Egyptian culture, especially in it´s earlier stages. One get the impression that during certain periods the influence was more or less one directional (from Mesopotamia to Egypt). Examples given of the influences are the visual arts of Egypt, technology, weaponry, imported products, religious imagery, agriculture and livestock, genetic input, and also in the likely transfer of writing from Mesopotamia to Egypt and parallels in the early stages of both cultures. Another area of influence that is mentioned is architecture:
quote:Architecture The design of the ziggurat, which appeared in Mesopotamia in the late 5th millennium BCE, was clearly a precursor to and an influence on the Egyptian pyramids, especially the stepped designs of the oldest pyramids (step pyramid), the earliest of which (Pyramid of Zoser at Saqqara) dates to circa 2600 BCE, well over two thousand years younger than Mesopotamian ziggurats/step pyramids. This again strongly suggests early cultural and technological influence on Egypt by Mesopotamia.
Does the Wikipedia article give a fair picture of the exchange of ideas and influences, or is the influence from Mesopotamia exaggerated?
Wikipedia´s caption: Standard reconstruction of the development of writing, with position of cuneiform. There is a possibility that the Egyptian script was invented independently from the Mesopotamian script.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2695 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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posted
Pyramids seem to be the sort of concept that multiple cultures around the world developed independently, probably because that's an easy way to build a big building with stone blocks or earth.
Anyway, I recall that Djoser's architect Imhotep developed the idea of the stepped pyramid by stacking multiple mastabas (the previous form of royal tomb) on top of one another, not necessarily from referring to Mesopotamian architecture. Also, pyramids in the Nile Valley were usually tombs instead of temples like the Mesopotamian ziggurats.
posted
^^ Yes I agree, pyramids and pyramid shaped structures have been built all over the world, and most of them ought to have been invented independently. You have pyramids in South America (some of them as old as the Egyptian ones), in Mesoamerica, in South East Asia, in Indonesia, in Oceania, in India and pyramidal mounds in China. Some are tombs, some are temples, some are a combination.
The pyramids of Sudan are inspired by Egyptian pyramids, but the Nsude pyramids in Nigeria may not be.
So I agree, that the pyramid shape and its varietes is a practical and rather common way to build monumental buildings in ancient times.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2695 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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posted
This is a complex and deep topic. If you any predynastic objects compared to Sumerian keep in mind the dating on each is not precise.
Comparisons should be raised point by point. For instance the Gebel el-Arak Knife has what may be a Mesopotamian looking figure, Master of the Animals that is kind of decorative looking. That is in some Egyptian rock art also but not a motif going into the dynastic. I would call it not so important
quote:
The original pyramidal structure, the Mesopotamian "Anu Ziggurat" dates to around 4000 BCE, and the White Temple was built on top of it circa 3500 BCE. The design of the ziggurat was probably a precursor to that of the Egyptian pyramids, the earliest of which dates to circa 2600 BCE.[28]
How exactly did they date the Anu Ziggurat? Is it correct to call it a precursor to Egypt pyramids? Take a look at some of the references they give Some of these questions have not been resolved
Mounds are found in many places but a pyramid has distinctive sides
That wiki article has a bunch of things in it. I'll have to look more closely later. I'm not sure I've seen it before
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posted
Unfortunately, the Wiki entry in question is nothing new and is just a reinforcement of the academic paradigm of 'A Priori Mesopotamia' or 'Asia First' in regards to civilization. Of course this topic is not new to this forum and was discussed here, here, and here.
The problem with such a hypothesis is that there are gaping holes in the thesis.
1. The original center of Egyptian civilization lay in the south in Upper Egypt or the 'Thebaid' as Egyptologists call it and not the north.
2. The proponents like to stress the similarities in say artwork and architecture between Mesopotamia and Egypt but ignore the differences which are far more stark. i.e. the difference between Egyptian pyramids even step pyramids and the Sumerian ziggurats.
3. The same proponents ignore the precursors found in the Nile Valley or adjacent areas when comparing universal motifs like the 'Master of beasts' which is found in Neolithic rock art, or the 'serpopard' which was found in palettes in Nekhen and if you look closely differs from the long necked creatures depicted in Uruk cylinders.
4. If Sumer was the transmitter of civilization to Egypt, then the medium of transmission or the link between them should be the Levant/Canaan. Yet strange how all this talk of cultural transmission but we don't see any of this Sumerian civilizing influence in Canaan at least in predynastic times.
Posts: 26312 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Not only were the Egyptian m-ru and Sumerian zigguratum were two totally different structures but they served different functions. The former were allegedly used as tombs for kings while the latter were used as temples.
Ziggurats and pyramids greatly differ in terms of purpose or function. Pyramids were originally thought to be the final resting places of the pharaohs but more recent archaeological finds have uncovered that they were built with very narrow shafts extending from the inside to the outer surface for the purpose of lifting the pharaoh’s soul unto the heavens. Ziggurats on the other hand were said to have been built to house the gods. Thus, they are the actual dwelling places of the gods themselves especially in the point of view of the Sumerians and Babylonians. In this regard, it is not a surprise that only the priests were allowed to get inside the ziggurats.
Other functions of the ziggurat are the following: a retreat area for the priests in case there is a sudden overflow of water at the ground level, for the overall security of the kingdom’s priests, and it also serves to complete an elaborate temple complex with dwelling places, storage areas and courtyards to name a few.
In terms of building location, ziggurats were mostly built somewhere within the Ancient Mesopotamian region (Sumer, Babylon & Assyria) corresponding to modern-day Iraq and part of Syria whereas pyramids were the infrastructures built in Ancient Egypt and South American regions.
Ziggurats possess a unique feature of having steps, ramps or terraces with its sides usually receding whereas the pyramids often have a long stretch of staircases and smoother sides. Ziggurats are multi-storied structures which usually share a common feature of having seven levels or layers to represent the 7 planets of the heavens. These were also postulated to have temples at the top since there are no concrete evidences claiming such until today. There are also no chambers within these infrastructures and are typically shaped in a rectangular or square fashion.
Pyramids have chambers inside and appear to have triangular outer surfaces (faces) that meet at one point at the top. Most pyramids have five faces all in all including its base although there are four-faced pyramids that have triangular or non quadrilateral bases.
Summary:
1. Pyramids are simply tombs or burial grounds while ziggurats are more temples. 2. Ziggurats were built in Ancient Mesopotamia while pyramids were built in Ancient Egypt and Southern America. 3. Ziggurats have steps or terraces on its sides and multi-storied while pyramids just have one long stretch of staircase. 4. Ziggurats were said to have temple tops while pyramids don’t have any but just a converging point for its sides. 5. Ziggurats are chamber-less while pyramids usually have internal chambers.
Now I understand there is a debate as to whether or not the meru were actually used as tombs since the sarcophagi were missing or haven't yet been found and that the theory was that they were instead used as some sort of spiritual vehicle. The point is they were not houses for idols they were in Sumero-Bablyon.
Another salient fact that tends to get overlooked in this debate is that the meru of Egypt are older than the zigguratu of Mesopotamia!
And here is a list of the famous pyramidal-like structures around the globe.
Posts: 26312 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
In the Wikipedia article they claim that the "Anu Ziggurat", in Uruk dates to the Sumerians around 4000 B C E. Then at about 3500 B C E the so called white temple was built upon it.
But that does not really tell much since, as one can see by the chart, pyramid shaped buildings are well spread in time and space. Since they are a rather logical way of building monumental structures they seem to have been invented many times, independently from each other.
For example in Caral, in Peru, one can see pyramids built at roughly the same time as the oldest Egyptian ones. And in the Peruvian Amazon pyramidal structures have been found which can be even older (around 3000 B C E).
Artistic impression of how the pyramids of Caral can have looked like when they were new
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2695 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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posted
^ Not to mention the Egyptian m-r or pyramid was a development of the archaic mastaba which again was of different design context from the Sumerian temples.
And yes I agree that South America doesn't get enough attention. Caral-Supe does indeed rival the pyramids in age and size.
Posts: 26312 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Wikipedia´s caption: Standard reconstruction of the development of writing, with position of cuneiform. There is a possibility that the Egyptian script was invented independently from the Mesopotamian script.
Of course, the writing. Not only is Sumerian cuneiform and Egyptian hieroglyphics radically different, but again the latter developed deep in the Upper Egypt not in the Delta, and the precursors to hieroglyphs are found in rock paintings and petroglyphs in southern Egypt to Lower Nubia.
Furthermore we even have this finding from 2003: An important artifact found at the site was an obsidian bowl. Obsidian is a natural glassy looking material of volcanic origin. As a natural resource, it does not exist in Egypt; it comes from the south either from modern-day Sudan or Ethiopia. Dreyer asserted that the obsidian used to make this bowl came from Ethiopia suggesting significant cultural contacts among Nile Valley populations. He concluded his presentation by noting similarities between specific Egyptian and Mesopotamian objects and suggesting that perhaps there is an initial influence of Egyptian writing on Mesopotamia because there are signs on Mesopotamian objects that are only "readable" from the standpoint of the Egyptian language, but not the Mesopotamian language.Posts: 26312 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Yes, in the article in Wikipedia they also consider the possibilities that both writing systems arose completely independently of each other, that Egypt influenced Mesopotamia or that Mesopotamia influenced Egypt.
Maybe it was an interaction where both influenced each other.
In the article they also mention things like agriculture and live stock. Especially the origins of different live stock have been rather debated.
Also one can wonder about metallurgy, copper, bronze, iron.
One invention which often is mentioned is the wheel and how it came to Egypt and other parts of North Africa.
posted
Pyramid shaped tombs are like sculptures but it's a lot of work for a useless object. The Egyptian temples and their columns are influential to architecture, places where people can actually congregate and be sheltered
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posted
^^ It is rather amazing that people around the world built objects like pyramids, either as tombs or fundaments for temples, or a combination of both, even though they did not fill any direct practical function seen with our modern, secular eyes. But people have always erected all sorts of impractical monuments like many of the megaliths, palaces, temples, churches and similar. Much man hours which could maybe have been used to more practical utilitarian purposes.
There are aspects of ancient cultures that can sometimes seem hard to understand for secular people in the modern world.
When coming to pyramids as temples and focal point for ceremonies and sacrifice there seem to have been that function too in many parts of the world
Pyramids as focal point for ceremonies, rituals and gatherings in Copan in Honduras
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2695 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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Note the differences. The Egyptian creatures are simply felines with elongated necks that intertwine whereas the Uruk creatures have hoofed or ungulate bodies with both elongated necks and elongated tails. In other words two entirely different species.
Older than the Narmer palette is the Nekhen serpopard palette.
Uruk 'Master of Beasts'
Nekhen 'Master of Beasts'
Tepe Giyan (Elamite) 'Master of Beasts'
Harappan 'Mistress of Beasts' Posts: 26312 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
It is funny, some pseudo scholars and crypto zoology fans have interpreted the serpopard motifs as depictions of dinosaurs that for some reason survived into our own time
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2695 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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posted
The master of animal motif (or the mistress of animals) is even represented in Scandinavia in a version when a woman (a goddess?) grips two snakes. Similar depictions can be seen in Crete and many other places
Mistress of the snakes, Gotland, Sweden c 600 AD
Monoan snake goddess - c 1600 BC
quote:The Master of Animals, Lord of Animals, or Mistress of the Animals is a motif in ancient art showing a human between and grasping two confronted animals. The motif is very widespread in the art of the Ancient Near East and Egypt. The figure may be female or male, it may be a column or a symbol, the animals may be realistic or fantastical, and the human figure may have animal elements such as horns, an animal upper body, an animal lower body, legs, or cloven feet. Although what the motif represented to the cultures that created the works probably varies greatly, unless shown with specific divine attributes, when male the figure is typically described as a hero by interpreters
posted
I forgot to point out that the theory of Sumerian influence on Egypt stems from a hypothesis called 'Uruk Horizon' which claimed that the Uruk Culture of Sumer expanded and spread throughout the Southwest Asia and into Egypt. This claim has been debunked years ago through archaeology showing no spread of a single population but instead dispersal of material via trade. Thus Uruk material like pottery was spread out but not the actual people.
Trade in Ancient Mesopotamia Uruk Period & Trade The Uruk Period saw the establishment of trade with Egypt during that region's Gerzean Period (also known as Naqada II Period (c. 3500-3200 BCE). Mesopotamian ceramics from Sumer – which would have come from cities including Eridu, Nippur, Ur, and Uruk – dated to c. 3500 BCE have been excavated in Egypt and include ceramics, cylinder seals, and lapis lazuli pendants. Evidence for the wealth generated by the Sumerian cities through trade is suggested by their expansion during this period, especially Uruk, which established several settlements beyond its initial boundaries at important junctions on trade routes.
Overland trade throughout Mesopotamia was ongoing during this period along the established routes and down the Tigris and Euphrates rivers to the Persian Gulf. The island of Bahrain, identified by the Sumerians as Dilmun, the Land of the Gods, served as a central trade depot for goods coming from the Indus Valley Civilization (7000-600 BCE). No monetary system in the form of coinage existed at this point; goods were exchanged for others considered of equal value.Posts: 26312 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Wouldn’t the Deffufa structures of Kerma be closer to the concept of a ziggurat than a pyramid?
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: Pyramids seem to be the sort of concept that multiple cultures around the world developed independently, probably because that's an easy way to build a big building with stone blocks or earth.
Anyway, I recall that Djoser's architect Imhotep developed the idea of the stepped pyramid by stacking multiple mastabas (the previous form of royal tomb) on top of one another, not necessarily from referring to Mesopotamian architecture. Also, pyramids in the Nile Valley were usually tombs instead of temples like the Mesopotamian ziggurats.
Posts: 8806 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Not only were the Egyptian m-ru and Sumerian zigguratum were two totally different structures but they served different functions. The former were allegedly used as tombs for kings while the latter were used as temples.
Ziggurats and pyramids greatly differ in terms of purpose or function. Pyramids were originally thought to be the final resting places of the pharaohs but more recent archaeological finds have uncovered that they were built with very narrow shafts extending from the inside to the outer surface for the purpose of lifting the pharaoh’s soul unto the heavens. Ziggurats on the other hand were said to have been built to house the gods. Thus, they are the actual dwelling places of the gods themselves especially in the point of view of the Sumerians and Babylonians. In this regard, it is not a surprise that only the priests were allowed to get inside the ziggurats.
Other functions of the ziggurat are the following: a retreat area for the priests in case there is a sudden overflow of water at the ground level, for the overall security of the kingdom’s priests, and it also serves to complete an elaborate temple complex with dwelling places, storage areas and courtyards to name a few.
In terms of building location, ziggurats were mostly built somewhere within the Ancient Mesopotamian region (Sumer, Babylon & Assyria) corresponding to modern-day Iraq and part of Syria whereas pyramids were the infrastructures built in Ancient Egypt and South American regions.
Ziggurats possess a unique feature of having steps, ramps or terraces with its sides usually receding whereas the pyramids often have a long stretch of staircases and smoother sides. Ziggurats are multi-storied structures which usually share a common feature of having seven levels or layers to represent the 7 planets of the heavens. These were also postulated to have temples at the top since there are no concrete evidences claiming such until today. There are also no chambers within these infrastructures and are typically shaped in a rectangular or square fashion.
Pyramids have chambers inside and appear to have triangular outer surfaces (faces) that meet at one point at the top. Most pyramids have five faces all in all including its base although there are four-faced pyramids that have triangular or non quadrilateral bases.
Summary:
1. Pyramids are simply tombs or burial grounds while ziggurats are more temples. 2. Ziggurats were built in Ancient Mesopotamia while pyramids were built in Ancient Egypt and Southern America. 3. Ziggurats have steps or terraces on its sides and multi-storied while pyramids just have one long stretch of staircase. 4. Ziggurats were said to have temple tops while pyramids don’t have any but just a converging point for its sides. 5. Ziggurats are chamber-less while pyramids usually have internal chambers.
Now I understand there is a debate as to whether or not the meru were actually used as tombs since the sarcophagi were missing or haven't yet been found and that the theory was that they were instead used as some sort of spiritual vehicle. The point is they were not houses for idols they were in Sumero-Bablyon.
Another salient fact that tends to get overlooked in this debate is that the meru of Egypt are older than the zigguratu of Mesopotamia!
And here is a list of the famous pyramidal-like structures around the globe.
Excellent roundup. The Wiki article is filled with misrepresentation and misinformation, and no doubt "guarded" by miscellaneous moles who will remove contrary data and scholarship with standard "stealth" methods. Which again highlights the importance of sites like ES in disseminating legitimate, quality information, allowing people to read openly given citations and data, and draw their own conclusions.
Unfortunately, the Wiki entry in question is nothing new and is just a reinforcement of the academic paradigm of 'A Priori Mesopotamia' or 'Asia First' in regards to civilization. Of course this topic is not new to this forum and was discussed here, here, and here.
The problem with such a hypothesis is that there are gaping holes in the thesis.
1. The original center of Egyptian civilization lay in the south in Upper Egypt or the 'Thebaid' as Egyptologists call it and not the north.
2. The proponents like to stress the similarities in say artwork and architecture between Mesopotamia and Egypt but ignore the differences which are far more stark. i.e. the difference between Egyptian pyramids even step pyramids and the Sumerian ziggurats.
3. The same proponents ignore the precursors found in the Nile Valley or adjacent areas when comparing universal motifs like the 'Master of beasts' which is found in Neolithic rock art, or the 'serpopard' which was found in palettes in Nekhen and if you look closely differs from the long necked creatures depicted in Uruk cylinders.
4. If Sumer was the transmitter of civilization to Egypt, then the medium of transmission or the link between them should be the Levant/Canaan. Yet strange how all this talk of cultural transmission but we don't see any of this Sumerian civilizing influence in Canaan at least in predynastic times.
^^Indeed. I would not even go so far as to say said article reflects a valid academic paradigm. In the academic forums at least balanced data is put on the table. But in said article the misrepresentation slants text to quesionable conclusions. When various authoring moles for example claim that:
The design of the ziggurat, which appeared in Mesopotamia in the late 5th millennium BCE..
This is patently bogus. The conservative and more credible Encyclopedia Britannica puts the dating at a more realistic 2200BC. QUOTE:
"Ziggurat, pyramidal stepped temple tower that is an architectural and religious structure characteristic of the major cities of Mesopotamia (now mainly in Iraq) from approximately 2200 until 500 BCE.. https://www.britannica.com/technology/ziggurat
Even if the word "design" is taken as a fudge word, the claim still fails because the using the same "design" word fudge allows Egypian pyramids to have an even earlier "design" background as seen in various predynastic tombs or religious constructions, such as at Nabta Playa.
Assorted follow-on claims that the supposed 5th millennium date "strongly suggests" early cultural and technological influence on Egypt by Mesopotamia, or is "clearly a precursor" to and an influence on the Egyptian pyramids, all fail because the early 5th millenium date asserted is bogus.
And this is before you even get to the design and functional details and diffeences.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5906 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
The Wikipedia article quotes a book that states that the Ziggurat concept would have been roughly contemporary with Djosers stepped pyramid. In the book they also mention that the oldest of them can have been 5000 years which is quite younger than 5th millennium BC which the Wikipedia article claims.
quote:... stepped towers in Mesopotamia was generally contemporary with pyramid construction in Egypt, and the stepped design of the Pyramid of Zoser at Saqqara, the oldest known pyramid along the Nile, suggests that it was borrowed from the Mesopotamian ziggurat concept." Thus, evidence from five thousand years ago clearly shows remarkable interaction ...
Held, Colbert C. (University of Nebraska) (2018). Middle East Patterns, Student Economy Edition: Places, People, and Politics. Routledge. p. 63.
In another Wikipedia article the Ziggurat at Sialk in Iran is mentioned as one of the oldest
quote:The Sialk ziggurat, in Kashan, Iran, is one of the oldest known ziggurats, dating to the early 3rd millennium BCE.[10][11] Ziggurat designs ranged from simple bases upon which a temple sat, to marvels of mathematics and construction which spanned several terraced stories and were topped with a temple.
But in the same article they claim a Ziggurat in Uruk as being from c 4000 BC.
They refer to this book regarding that information
Crüsemann, Nicola; Ess, Margarete van; Hilgert, Markus; Salje, Beate; Potts, Timothy (2019). Uruk: First City of the Ancient World. Getty Publications. p. 325.
posted
Since the Ziggurats and the Egyptian pyramids differ both in building technique and function it is most likely that they were created independently from each other. As mentioned pyramidal structures are quite common in many places in the world.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2695 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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posted
^ The Tepe Sialk ziggurat is interesting considering its locality.
Iran's archaeology is still unfortunately largely neglected due to local tribal conflicts as well as religious authorities for such ancient history.
I wonder if the Telpe Sialk represents Sumerian expansion or Sumerians being native to that region as the Sumerians claim eastern ancestral origins. Indeed, the Sumerian ziggurats are said to be modeled after mountains and the Sumerians say their ancestors worshipped on mountains hence the ziggurats are artificial versions.
The Egyptian concepts are somewhat more mysterious. I've read that the Egyptian meru are based on mountains in the Western Desert or Libya. The only people who edifices were most similar to the meru are the Kushites pyramids and later the Garamantes of Libya.
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