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“The Stoning of Soraya M.” explores some of the most contentious beliefs of fundamentalist Muslims.
Like “The Passion of the Christ,” McEveety’s new movie is not for the faint of heart. “The Stoning of Soraya M.” is adapted from the 1994 nonfiction of the same name by the French-Iranian journalist Freidoune Sahebjam, who traveled to a small Iranian village in the mid-1980s and came across the story of an innocent woman stoned to death over concocted charges of infidelity.
The film, which is selling to foreign distributors at the Cannes market and will be released domestically on June 26, is framed by the arrival of the journalist (played by “The Passion of the Christ’s” Jim Caviezel) into the hillside town of Kupayeh. The Shah of Iran has been overthrown as part of the Islamic Revolution, and there’s a resurgence of fundamentalist religious belief, which has reached the men of Kupayeh.
“What happened here yesterday was wrong,” a woman named Zahra (”House of Sand and Fog’s” Shohreh Aghdashloo) tells the journalist, before she relates the tragic events of what has happened to her niece, Soraya (Mozhan Marnò). Soraya’s husband was tired of his marriage and wanted a younger spouse; rather than pursue a divorce, he concocted a scheme to get rid of her.
The fabricated charge was adultery, which under the town leaders’ judgment was a crime not only against her husband but also Islam. The penalty was death by public stoning, and nothing Zahra or Soraya could do or say would stop it. “It is God’s law,” one person says, while the local mullah says, “With each stone you throw, your honor will return.”
Director and co-writer Cyrus Nowrasteh spares little in depicting the execution, in which Soraya is buried to her chest with her arms bound, and pelted with heavy rocks from close range until she bleeds to death.
“We had to keep toning it down so that people could bear it,” says McEveety. “It was far worse originally. But there were people who wanted us to tone it down even more than we did.”
Yet McEveety felt it was critical to depict Soraya’s killing graphically so that audiences would leave the theater outraged. “You can’t tone it down too much, or you do an injustice to the crime,” he says. But he doesn’t want people to be angry at the Islamic faith; rather, he wants to stop stoning around the world, even as it is . What’s more, McEveety wants people who see the film to cease being passive witnesses to injustice in any form.
“Another thing is that we’re all guilty — we don’t stand up when we should,” McEveety says. “I hope you will explore your own soul when you watch this film. Can you say that about many other movies?”
That’s not the only question the film might raise.
In its depiction of deeply religious yet merciless Muslims, “The Stoning of Soraya M.” risks creating a parallel argument about how Jews were shown in “The Passion of the Christ,” which any number of critics considered anti-Semitic. When the film is shown at the Los Angeles Film Festival on June 20, it will be accompanied by a panel discussion about stoning and religious fundamentalism. And Mpower says it has been showing the film to leaders in the Islamic faith.
“It’s more about the abuse of a religion than the religion itself,” says McEveety, adding that much of the filmmaking team, cast and crew were Iranian Muslims. “It’s their movie. I empowered them to tell their story.
“For me, it’s about victims and the abuse of women, which doesn’t only happen in Iran, but in our own backyards,” he says. “There are so many lessons in this film that don’t pertain to Iran or to Muslims. I think the movie is loaded with moral values. This has nothing to do with politics. This exists. People are stoned to death.”
In test screenings, the movie has been received best by Muslim women, McEveety says. “There’s no controversy because everybody agrees this is barbarous.”
Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
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From the trailer of the film, that's obviously a negative form of the tribal beliefs of Muslim societies adopted from Judaism and Christianity(Mary Magdalene) and made to picture the narrow minded villiage people of Iran or Afghanistan or whatever but not Arabia, since Arabs have good relations with the west, and obviously the producers don't want trouble with the Sheikhs of Saudi Arabia. The movie is another fiasco showing the sinners of Islam in action. I find the idea very childish and futile, and the old hag deserves to be stoned, she's old enough to not have done a silly mistake as such. Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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The whole issue is ridiculous, including the movie, its like doing a movie about the Spanish or Roman inquisition. I haven't seen one prostitute nowadays taken into a football stadium and stoned till death,that's in Egypt at least, but I know that in conservative socities, both Islamic and Coptic, specially in rural ones, the girl is wasted by her own family..like in the well known film of El Bostagi (The Postman) after the novel by Tawfik El Hakim.
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quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: The whole issue is ridiculous, including the movie, its like doing a movie about the Spanish or Roman inquisition. I haven't seen one prostitute nowadays taken into a football stadium and stoned till death,that's in Egypt at least
Dzosser, the Spanish inquisition is a thing of the past, while people are still being stoned to death in this day and age. It happens in several countries and human rights organizations have been trying to put a stop to the practice for a long time.
Also, even nowadays there are scholars who claim that stoning for adultery is obligatory. And it's not only Salafis or other extremists who do so. If you take a look at the popular website IslamOnline, run by Qaradawi who is considered a "moderate" by some people, you will find fatawa claiming that stoning adulterers is an obligation and not adhering to this supposed rule means you are not adhering to Islamic law.
Didn't you know that?
Currently, six out of fifty-two Muslim-majority countries in the world use stoning as a legally-sanctioned form of punishment: Afghanistan, Iran, Nigeria (about one-third among 36 states), Pakistan, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates. Two Muslim-majority countries, Iraq and Pakistan have reported incidents of stonings outside of the boundaries of law.
posted
Dear questioner! Thanks a lot for your confidence in us and your eagerness to understand the true teachings of Islam and find guidance. May Allah help us fulfill His Commands!
First of all, a correction should be made to the following phrase in your question: “the punishment specified for the person who commits adultery is 80 lashes”. It’s to be noted that as regard flogging - as a punishment specified for an unmarried person guilty of fornication – it’s 100 and not 80 lashes. In the very beginning of Surat An-Nur, it is stated that 100 lashes is the punishment specified for unmarried adulterer and adulteress, Allah says: (The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.) (An-Nur 24: 2).
Coming to the issue of stoning to death as a punishment for married adulterer and adulteress, the statement that there is no verse stipulating that punishment is not correct. It is to be made crystal clear that the punishment is explicitly sanctioned by both the Qur’an and the Prophetic Tradition. Before explaining this further, it’s to be stressed that such punishment should not be a cause of wonder, especially when we know that it had been there in the Divine Scriptures revealed before the Glorious Qur’an. There is a reference to this punishment in the Bible, for instance. It reads: "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die." (Deuteronomy 22: 22) and also in Leviticus, we find the following verse: "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife-with the wife of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death" (Leviticus 20: 10).
All this makes it clear that it was neither Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) nor the glorious Qur’an, revealed to him, brought the capital punishment (as a punishment for adultery) out of the blue. Being the Seal Prophet, it was his mission to perfect the Divine Message of the Supreme Creator!
The second point that should be borne in mind on this issue is that, as previously refuted, the statement that the Qur’an is silent on this punishment is not genuine. Actually, according to renowned Muslim jurists, there was a verse (Ayah) in the Qur’an that talked about this matter. Though the verse was abrogated, but the abrogation here is in wording; the ruling is still kept in force.
One may ask “What is abrogation?” Abrogation means removal. It may involve the text or the ruling or both. There is a great Divine wisdom behind every incident of abrogation, part of which is to assert that the Islamic legislation, unlike man-made ones, was not established at once; rather, all its teachings and rulings were set gradually. In addition, when abrogating the words of a verse but not its ruling, this serves as a reminder that not all the Divine messages are to be through one channel, i.e. a direct revelation. Rather, part of these messages is to be clarified through the practice and tradition of the Prophet sent to deliver the message.
So the point here is: the practice of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is itself a part of revelation. Almighty Allah explains this saying: (And whatsoever the messenger giveth you, take it. And whatsoever he forbiddeth, abstain (from it). And keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is stern in reprisal.) (Al-Hashr 59: 7) Also Allah says: (…then let those beware who withstand the Messenger's order, lest some trial befall them, or a grievous penalty be inflicted on them) (An-Nur 24: 63).
According to eminent Qur’an exegetes, this verse serves as a strong warning against deviating from the Tradition of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). Imam Ibn Kathir says: “The words ‘the messenger’s order’ refer to his Path, teachings, laws and tradition. Thus, all words and deeds should be weighed according to the words and deeds of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) in the sense that whatever correspond with his words and deeds are accepted and whatever contradicts that should be rejected.”
The abrogated verse stated that “A married man and woman, if they commit adultery, stone them to death.”
This verse states clearly that the prescribed punishment for adultery, which means an illegitimate sexual intercourse between a married man and a woman married to another man is stoning to death. But this offense must be proven either through a confession made voluntarily by the accused or by the testimony of four witnesses who state under oath that they have witnessed the commission of the crime. It's only after this legal procedure that the accused will be punished by lapidation. This punishment is agreed upon by scholars and there is no question about it. In citing proofs for this punishment, scholars of Hadith quote `Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) as saying that he would have written this verse if not for the fear that it would be viewed as tampering with Allah's book.
So we are to bear in mind that the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is a part of the Divine Revelation, indicating that many things were revealed to the Prophet either through inspiration or instruction. Allah tells us in the Qur'an that the Prophet does not speak out of his own fancy. It is all an inspiration sent down to him. (An-Najm 53: 3-4) Therefore, what the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, teaches us is part of our religion. It is not something that he has determined by himself. It is certainly revealed to him.
In the Kuwaiti Encyclopedia of Islamic Jurisprudence, we read the following:
Ibn Qudamah wrote: “Muslim jurists are unanimous on the fact stoning to death is a specified punishment for married adulterer and adulteress. The punishment is recorded in number of traditions and the practice of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) stands as an authentic source supporting it. This is the view held by all Companions, Successors and other Muslim scholars with the exception of Kharijites.”
Al-Bahuty said: “The authentic practice of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) supports stoning to death as a punishment specified for adultery. In addition, the verse commanding this punishment was revealed in the Qur’an. Later, it was verbally abrogated but its ruling is still binding. `Umar ibn Al-Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him) said: “Almighty Allah sent Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) with the truth and revealed unto Him the Qur’an. Among the revelation (brought by him) was the verse stipulating that married adulterer and adulteress should be stoned to death. We read, comprehended and understood it. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) acted in accordance with that and so did all of us. I fear, by the passage of time, that some people will say: ‘We do not find this verse in the Qur’an’, and thus they go astray abandoning an obligation given to them by Allah. Stoning to death is a Divine obligation and punishment specified for any married adulterer or adulteress once there is four witnesses or the confession of the accused.”
In another narration, `Umar added: “By the One in Whose hands is my soul, had it not been that people would say: ‘`Umar added to the Book of Allah, I would have reinserted it. It (the verse) read: “A married man and woman, if they commit adultery, stone them to death. This is a punishment from Allah. Allah is Almighty and Wise.”
Finally, we would like to note that there are many incidents in the Sunnah and the life of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) in which the Prophet stoned the married adulterer and adulteress to death. This happened in the case of Ma`iz and the Ghamidi woman. All this makes it clear that the punishment is proven and authentic and is not debatable.
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´UK: “Muslim Law Councillor” sees “nothing wrong with stoning a women to death”…
February 27, 2009
“If an unmarried woman has an affair she is lashed 100 times. If a married woman has an affair she is stoned to death. What is wrong in it?”
Politicians in Brent are calling for the resignation of a councillor after he advocated the introduction of Sharia law for British Muslims on a website, including the death penalty for women who commit adultery.
The remarks were a response to The Archbishop of Canterbury’s comments made earlier this month in which he said the adoption of Sharia law in the UK seemed unavoidable.
“Yes of course I believe in Sharia, it is our way of life. I don’t see any harm in Muslims believing what is in the Koran.” But politicians from different parties have been outraged by the remarks and believe he should step down from his post. Councillor Ann John, leader of the Labour group, said: “I was pretty shocked and I don’t think he is fit to hold office. He should resign. He should be challenging his religion. It is disgusting. “To think that whipping and stoning women to death is okay is appaling. We live in a liberal and democratic society but we still have a long way to go. Saying that this is exceptable whether here or anywhere else is not right.” Mr Malik was expelled from the Brent Conservative group in May last year for voting against Tory policy. Councillor Bob Blackman, leader of Conservative group, said: “We live in the UK and our system of law works well for us. We can tolerate people having different views but such extremism renders him unfit to be a politician. These comments confirm the wisdom of the group to expell him and if the group had not already told him to leave then it would do now.”... web pagePosts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
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Some Muslim clerics such as Ayatollah Hussein Mousavi Tabrizi have spoken out against the practice and argued that stoning should be stopped as a response to the demands of modern age. Others decry that any punishment, including stoning, that defames, embarrasses or depicts a bad picture of Islam is harmful to the religion and should be discontinued.
Stoning is a grave and serious violation of International Human Rights Law.
Stoning breeches the International Convention of Civil and Political Rights (1966), to which Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq, the Sudan are party signatories.
Article 6 of the ICCPR states that “in countries which have not abolished the death penalty, sentence of death may be imposed only for the most serious crimes”, of which adultery is not one.
Article 7 of the ICCPR states that "No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment".
This last injunction is the content of a whole Convention: the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (1987), which is widely considered to have reached the level of customary law due to its strong international acceptance by more than fifty nations, including many Muslim nations.
# Shouldn’t we just accept stoning as part of someone’s culture and their right to freedom of belief?
There is no excuse for the killing of women in the name of any ‘religion’, ‘culture’ or ‘tradition’.
‘Religion’ and ‘culture’ cannot and must not be invoked as excuse for the killing of women, because religion and the laws which derive from it are always subjective interpretations. Culture is not static, but constantly re-created and re-defined by the various interests of groups in positions of power in a society at any given time. There is no excuse for the killing of women. Murder is a brutal violation of the most basic human right – the right to life – and any practice which harms women or impinges upon their agency and autonomy contradicts fundamental rights, such as the right to security; the right to freedom from violence; from inhuman, degrading treatment and punishment; from terror; the right to choose a marriage partner; and the right to not face discrimination under the law. As long as impunity exists, the misappropriation of culture and religion will continue to threaten women’s safety.
No ‘culture’ has the right to kill and harm women based on their perceptions of morality or honour. The freedom of belief does not mean freedom to kill. Stoning is a brutal example of how culture and religion are being misused to perpetuate violence against women.
Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
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I think you guys are making a big issue out of nothing, since everybody knows that the trick is to never be caught in the act, simple and straight forward, Islam has very strict conditions to condemn the act, it needs 4 witnesses to prove the act being genuinely true. I think fornication and adultery are both taboos in other cultures and religions, depending on location and mentality even in places like Sardegna, or Sicily or even in those nomadic Ex-Soviet states ending in -ISTAN, like Uzbek, Kazakh and so on..who'd like to see his spouse in bed with another person ? We cannot just leave things like this, but rarely do they get caught, and sometimes retaliation could be in cutting off the guy's prick, like in the famous case we all know. I'd rather we protest the death penalty by lethal injection, or even worse the electric chair. Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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I think the problem with this is that vary rarely do any of them produce 4 witnesses to the act, THATS the problem and thats what clear in Quran. When these barbaric countries agree to this its all supposedly 'from' the religion but stoning is not in Quran and the 4 witnesses are 'waved' also, therefore making it a 'cultural' practice rather then an Islamic one.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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"Article 6 of the ICCPR states that “in countries which have not abolished the death penalty, sentence of death may be imposed only for the most serious crimes”, of which adultery is not one."
Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
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Yes we know that, but the penalty itself has been stopped in many countries, while some states insist on this horrible technique, what's wrong with the good 'ol rope ?
Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: I think you guys are making a big issue out of nothing, since everybody knows that the trick is to never be caught in the act, simple and straight forward, Islam has very strict conditions to condemn the act, it needs 4 witnesses to prove the act being genuinely true.
So you think stoning is Islamic and all the people who get stoned have simply been stupid because they got themselves caught in the act, so to speak?
Do you believe that killing people for having sex is justified?
Are you saying those countries who still stone people to death are acting in accordance with Islamic law? Why, then, are there many cases, like the one of Amina Lawal, where the woman is the one getting the death sentence while the man does not get the same punishment?
Really, Dzosser, I don't understand what you are trying to say here. I am shocked by your apologetic attitude, your extremely cynical remarks and the fact that you seem to be suggesting there is nothing wrong with stoning at all. Also, you seem to be believing that the countries who are still stoning people to death are sticking to the four witness rule and that people who get stoned somehow deserve it.
And, yes, I am opposed to ALL sorts of capital punishment. But at least people who are put on the elecric chair or get a lethal injection die quickly and painlessly and without a drooling and screaming mob watching.
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Not surprised a militant Muslim Like you is defending the Killing of Women in this way. It's just too bad that people seem to think they are following the rules of there religion when it comes to stoning people.
Thats just shameful. Wakeup Dzosser dying like that is inhumane. Getting Hanged is also wrong.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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How is “adultery” proven, before a stoning sentence is passed in the courtroom?
In states where stoning is codified in law (Iran and the Sudan,) adultery must be proven in court. According to many interpretations of Islamic Law (including the Iranian Penal Code), proving adultery is very difficult, and a guilty sentence is nearly impossible to obtain through hard evidence. Adultery punishable by stoning must be proven by the eye-witness testimony of either four just men (or three just men and two just women) or through four separate confessions by the defendant before a judge. But in fact, most stoning sentences are issued not on the basis of testimony or confession but on the judge’s “knowledge” or “intuition.” Article 105 of the Islamic Penal code of Iran allows a single judge to rule according to his personal opinion instead of hard evidence. As a result, most if not all adultery cases are unfairly tried.
How is stoning carried out?
The Islamic Penal Code of Iran is very specific regarding the details of how stoning should be executed. Article 102 states that men shall be buried up to their waists and women up to their breasts for the execution. Article 104 states, referring to the penalty for adultery, that the stones used should “not be large enough to kill the person by one or two strikes; nor should they be so small that they could not be defined as stones (pebbles.)”. In some cases, if a victim can escape from the ditch during the stoning, they will be freed. However, because women are buried up to their breasts and men only at their waists, women will have a smaller chance of escaping than men.
What is the relationship between stoning and women’s rights?
Women are far more likely to become victims of stoning. For example, of the ten cases of individuals awaiting punishment by stoning in Iran, nine are women. Even though there is no article in law that mandates punishment by stoning exclusively for women, misogynist and discriminatory laws in the Iranian Penal Code, particularly Family Law, make women far more likely than men to be found guilty of “adultery”.
In the Iranian Penal Code, a married woman has no right to divorce, a privilege which is reserved for the husband. Women have no custody rights of their children after age seven; as a result, women who can obtain a divorce by proving their husbands are either abusive or an addict, choose not to do so fearing the loss of their children. A man can marry up to four wives simultaneously, and may establish a sexual relationship with any other single woman through a temporary marriage without the requirements of marriage registration, ceremony, or obligation to any possible child that may result. In addition, a woman is legally obliged to submit to her husband’s sexual demands and do her best to satisfy him sexually. Many similar discriminatory laws and regulations exist in other countries and communities where stoning is still practiced.
Hence if a man is sexually unsatisfied or in an unhappy relationship, he has many avenues open to him to dissolve the marriage and/or satisfy his sexual needs in a temporary “marriage”. However, these legal options are denied to women, and a woman seeking alternative intimate relationships is, in the eyes of the law, “committing adultery”.
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Dalia of course I disagree with stoning like I disagree with using Sharia in our modern times, but its a fact that man has created laws to punish those who sin..the trick is not to be a sinner..is this a problem ? If you are a sinner then the law shall be applied, regardless of the kind of punishment, but a sinner must be punished...if a man rapes a woman he deserves to be hung..this is what we gave them in Egypt, while in the west, he's back into society after serving 3-5 years in the slammer! Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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You said something I agree with. In the west pedofiles and rapist of women seem to get less and less time served. I think people who violate children should be giving the death penalty. I can't stand that perverts get to ruin a life and get like 2-4 years for there crimes. That is just shameful and the 1st World really needs to rethink there criminal justice system.
Lots of Children and Women commit suicide because they relive what happens to them and there life is basically over. Something Harsher needs to be done to these people.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: Dear questioner! Thanks a lot for your confidence in us and your eagerness to understand the true teachings of Islam and find guidance. May Allah help us fulfill His Commands!
First of all, a correction should be made to the following phrase in your question: “the punishment specified for the person who commits adultery is 80 lashes”. It’s to be noted that as regard flogging - as a punishment specified for an unmarried person guilty of fornication – it’s 100 and not 80 lashes. In the very beginning of Surat An-Nur, it is stated that 100 lashes is the punishment specified for unmarried adulterer and adulteress, Allah says: (The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.) (An-Nur 24: 2).
Adultery: voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than his or her lawful spouse.
Fornication: voluntary sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons or two persons not married to each other.
Clear to me, 100 stripes. An unmarried person cannot commit adultery, the word adultery refers to a married person. An unmarried person commits fornication, not adultery. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: I think the problem with this is that vary rarely do any of them produce 4 witnesses to the act, THATS the problem
Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 82, Number 806:
Narrated Abu Huraira: A man came to Allah's Apostle while he was in the mosque, and he called him, saying, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." The Prophet turned his face to the other side, but that man repeated his statement four times, and after he bore witness against himself four times, the Prophet called him, saying, "Are you mad?" The man said, "No." The Prophet said, "Are you married?" The man said, "Yes." Then the Prophet said, "Take him away and stone him to death." Jabir bin 'Abdullah said: I was among the ones who participated in stoning him and we stoned him at the Musalla. When the stones troubled him, he fled, but we overtook him at Al-Harra and stoned him to death.
Volume 8, Book 82, Number 818:
Narrated Zaid bin Khalid Al-Jihani: I heard the Prophet ordering that an unmarried person guilty of illegal sexual intercourse be flogged one-hundred stripes and be exiled for one year. Umar bin Al-Khattab also exiled such a person, and this tradition is still valid.
Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
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The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
Sahih Bukhari: Volume 8, Book 82, Number 815:
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid: While we were with the Prophet, a man stood up and said (to the Prophet ), "I beseech you by Allah, that you should judge us according to Allah's Laws." Then the man's opponent who was wiser than him, got up saying (to Allah's Apostle) "Judge us according to Allah's Law and kindly allow me (to speak)." The Prophet said, "Speak." He said, "My son was a laborer working for this man and he committed an illegal sexual intercourse with his wife, and I gave one-hundred sheep and a slave as a ransom for my son's sin. Then I asked a learned man about this case and he informed me that my son should receive one hundred lashes and be exiled for one year, and the man's wife should be stoned to death." The Prophet said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, I will judge you according to the Laws of Allah. Your one-hundred sheep and the slave are to be returned to you, and your son has to receive one-hundred lashes and be exiled for one year. O Unais! Go to the wife of this man, and if she confesses, then stone her to death." Unais went to her and she confessed. He then stoned her to death.Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
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Muhammad claimed to be the best example and a messenger of God yet he followed the pagan practices of a people whom he called ignorant. By doing so he made their 7th century laws and practises, norms for everyone. The Quran is self-evidently a writing of its time. It would never cross any open mind that the Quran might be the eternal dictate of the Creator.
Muhammad began and ended up with a pagan religion with the only difference being that he repackaged it in a monotheistic context.
If you hear a scholar say: to read the Quran in translation is to take it out of context, you may reply: No, it is you who have wrenched it from its context. It belongs within the context of the seventh century CE, in the context of a land of tribal feuds and treachery. That is the only context in which it stands. The Quran is indeed literal. It is human. All too human.
Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
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UT you quote hadith and say this is what happened then quote Quran which shws what should happen. No matter how many times you say it the prophet was given his orders from God and no way would he have done what is quoted in hadith when he had a clear verse in Quran.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by unfinished thought.: Surah 24:2
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
Sahih Bukhari: Volume 8, Book 82, Number 815:
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid: While we were with the Prophet, a man stood up and said (to the Prophet ), "I beseech you by Allah, that you should judge us according to Allah's Laws." Then the man's opponent who was wiser than him, got up saying (to Allah's Apostle) "Judge us according to Allah's Law and kindly allow me (to speak)." The Prophet said, "Speak." He said, "My son was a laborer working for this man and he committed an illegal sexual intercourse with his wife, and I gave one-hundred sheep and a slave as a ransom for my son's sin. Then I asked a learned man about this case and he informed me that my son should receive one hundred lashes and be exiled for one year, and the man's wife should be stoned to death." The Prophet said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, I will judge you according to the Laws of Allah. Your one-hundred sheep and the slave are to be returned to you, and your son has to receive one-hundred lashes and be exiled for one year. O Unais! Go to the wife of this man, and if she confesses, then stone her to death." Unais went to her and she confessed. He then stoned her to death.
What an A-hole. Religion is all bullshit.
Posts: 1325 | From: For tooti http://www.csa.gov.uk/ | Registered: May 2009
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quote:Originally posted by unfinished thought.: Surah 24:2
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
Sahih Bukhari: Volume 8, Book 82, Number 815:
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid: While we were with the Prophet, a man stood up and said (to the Prophet ), "I beseech you by Allah, that you should judge us according to Allah's Laws." Then the man's opponent who was wiser than him, got up saying (to Allah's Apostle) "Judge us according to Allah's Law and kindly allow me (to speak)." The Prophet said, "Speak." He said, "My son was a laborer working for this man and he committed an illegal sexual intercourse with his wife, and I gave one-hundred sheep and a slave as a ransom for my son's sin. Then I asked a learned man about this case and he informed me that my son should receive one hundred lashes and be exiled for one year, and the man's wife should be stoned to death." The Prophet said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, I will judge you according to the Laws of Allah. Your one-hundred sheep and the slave are to be returned to you, and your son has to receive one-hundred lashes and be exiled for one year. O Unais! Go to the wife of this man, and if she confesses, then stone her to death." Unais went to her and she confessed. He then stoned her to death.
What an A-hole. Religion is all bullshit.
are you all blind? This hadith does NOT match what Quran says, its is CONTRADICTORY to Quran and the punishment is NOT equal and there are no 4 witnesses! It is BS!
quote:Originally posted by unfinished thought.: Surah 24:2
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
Sahih Bukhari: Volume 8, Book 82, Number 815:
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid: While we were with the Prophet, a man stood up and said (to the Prophet ), "I beseech you by Allah, that you should judge us according to Allah's Laws." Then the man's opponent who was wiser than him, got up saying (to Allah's Apostle) "Judge us according to Allah's Law and kindly allow me (to speak)." The Prophet said, "Speak." He said, "My son was a laborer working for this man and he committed an illegal sexual intercourse with his wife, and I gave one-hundred sheep and a slave as a ransom for my son's sin. Then I asked a learned man about this case and he informed me that my son should receive one hundred lashes and be exiled for one year, and the man's wife should be stoned to death." The Prophet said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, I will judge you according to the Laws of Allah. Your one-hundred sheep and the slave are to be returned to you, and your son has to receive one-hundred lashes and be exiled for one year. O Unais! Go to the wife of this man, and if she confesses, then stone her to death." Unais went to her and she confessed. He then stoned her to death.
What an A-hole. Religion is all bullshit.
are you all blind? This hadith does NOT match what Quran says, its is CONTRADICTORY to Quran and the punishment is NOT equal and there are no 4 witnesses! It is BS!
Does that mean Muhammed didnt say or do it?? A fake Hadith?? Hasnt Muhammed become the imperson/picture of Islam/muslims??
Posts: 1325 | From: For tooti http://www.csa.gov.uk/ | Registered: May 2009
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quote:Originally posted by *Dalia* quoting islamonline.com: not all the Divine messages are to be through one channel, i.e. a direct revelation. Rather, part of these messages is to be clarified through the practice and tradition of the Prophet sent to deliver the message.
So the point here is: the practice of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is itself a part of revelation.
Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
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posted
They are not fake hadiths. They are Sahih Hadiths meaning authentic, true. The early Muslim scholars accepted a hadith as Sahih only when its authenticity was verified.
If stoning is a punishment from Allah then let Allah stone the adulterers in the afterlife. No one has the right to take the life of another human being.
Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
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quote:Originally posted by unfinished thought.: Surah 24:2
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
Sahih Bukhari: Volume 8, Book 82, Number 815:
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid: While we were with the Prophet, a man stood up and said (to the Prophet ), "I beseech you by Allah, that you should judge us according to Allah's Laws." Then the man's opponent who was wiser than him, got up saying (to Allah's Apostle) "Judge us according to Allah's Law and kindly allow me (to speak)." The Prophet said, "Speak." He said, "My son was a laborer working for this man and he committed an illegal sexual intercourse with his wife, and I gave one-hundred sheep and a slave as a ransom for my son's sin. Then I asked a learned man about this case and he informed me that my son should receive one hundred lashes and be exiled for one year, and the man's wife should be stoned to death." The Prophet said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, I will judge you according to the Laws of Allah. Your one-hundred sheep and the slave are to be returned to you, and your son has to receive one-hundred lashes and be exiled for one year. O Unais! Go to the wife of this man, and if she confesses, then stone her to death." Unais went to her and she confessed. He then stoned her to death.
What an A-hole. Religion is all bullshit.
are you all blind? This hadith does NOT match what Quran says, its is CONTRADICTORY to Quran and the punishment is NOT equal and there are no 4 witnesses! It is BS!
Does that mean Muhammed didnt say or do it?? A fake Hadith?? Hasnt Muhammed become the imperson/picture of Islam/muslims??
Tibe, if God told His prophet a certain rule then how could he go against that? It is specific in Quran so Muhammed is not going to go his own way and stone someone when God said lashing. Muhammed would certainly not have treated the man in one way and the woman in another, the Quran is equal punishment for both the man and the woman and its lashing NOT stoning. Stoning was in use way before this and is from Torah, these men had to have a way to keep hold of their 'cultural traditions' after Muhammed died which is why the hadith do NOT match Quran even though they have 'supposedly' been 'scientifically sorted' to throw out any that contradict Quran, this one clearly does!
Its the same with FGM and marrying 4 wives, cultural traditions some didnt want to lose hold of so what other way is there than to invent 'hadith' saying the prophet allowed this? And to say the rediculous that there WAS a verse saying this but was abrogated and it no longer there then if thats the case why still USE it??
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by unfinished thought.: They are not fake hadiths. They are Sahih Hadiths meaning authentic, true. The early Muslim scholars accepted a hadith as Sahih only when its authenticity was verified.
If stoning is a punishment from Allah then let Allah stone the adulterers in the afterlife. No one has the right to take the life of another human being.
In Quran it is NOT a punishment from Allah as YOU clearly posted the verse. Stoning WAS a punishment in the Torah, a book YOU should still be following if it wasnt for Paul the founder of Christianity who made up a pack of lies to cover his own ass and split from Judaism which JESUS FOLLOWED. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Do you really believe these are the eternal words of God?
This is from Quran: Surah 24:2
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
Still lashing is not an acceptable punishment for "fornification" in this time and age.
Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
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Its the same with FGM and marrying 4 wives, cultural traditions some didnt want to lose hold of so what other way is there than to invent 'hadith' saying the prophet allowed this? And to say the rediculous that there WAS a verse saying this but was abrogated and it no longer there then if thats the case why still USE it??
Did I understand you right when you said here that marrying four wives is not mentioned in the Quran? Please correct me.
Posts: 657 | From: Cairo | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by unfinished thought.: Surah 24:2
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
Sahih Bukhari: Volume 8, Book 82, Number 815:
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid: While we were with the Prophet, a man stood up and said (to the Prophet ), "I beseech you by Allah, that you should judge us according to Allah's Laws." Then the man's opponent who was wiser than him, got up saying (to Allah's Apostle) "Judge us according to Allah's Law and kindly allow me (to speak)." The Prophet said, "Speak." He said, "My son was a laborer working for this man and he committed an illegal sexual intercourse with his wife, and I gave one-hundred sheep and a slave as a ransom for my son's sin. Then I asked a learned man about this case and he informed me that my son should receive one hundred lashes and be exiled for one year, and the man's wife should be stoned to death." The Prophet said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, I will judge you according to the Laws of Allah. Your one-hundred sheep and the slave are to be returned to you, and your son has to receive one-hundred lashes and be exiled for one year. O Unais! Go to the wife of this man, and if she confesses, then stone her to death." Unais went to her and she confessed. He then stoned her to death.
What an A-hole. Religion is all bullshit.
are you all blind? This hadith does NOT match what Quran says, its is CONTRADICTORY to Quran and the punishment is NOT equal and there are no 4 witnesses! It is BS!
Does that mean Muhammed didnt say or do it?? A fake Hadith?? Hasnt Muhammed become the imperson/picture of Islam/muslims??
Tibe, if God told His prophet a certain rule then how could he go against that? It is specific in Quran so Muhammed is not going to go his own way and stone someone when God said lashing. Muhammed would certainly not have treated the man in one way and the woman in another, the Quran is equal punishment for both the man and the woman and its lashing NOT stoning. Stoning was in use way before this and is from Torah, these men had to have a way to keep hold of their 'cultural traditions' after Muhammed died which is why the hadith do NOT match Quran even though they have 'supposedly' been 'scientifically sorted' to throw out any that contradict Quran, this one clearly does!
Its the same with FGM and marrying 4 wives, cultural traditions some didnt want to lose hold of so what other way is there than to invent 'hadith' saying the prophet allowed this? And to say the rediculous that there WAS a verse saying this but was abrogated and it no longer there then if thats the case why still USE it??
So does that mean that if the hadith is good - its true and usefull but if its saying something bad its lies or useless??? Im not a muslim-cristian or jew. Never had the desire to follow any old books or rules but still i find it interesting to discuss. (Please forgive if it sounds harsh, - i just like to challenge things by questioning them )
Posts: 1325 | From: For tooti http://www.csa.gov.uk/ | Registered: May 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: [qb] Stoning WAS a punishment in the Torah, a book YOU should still be following if it wasnt for Paul the founder of Christianity who made up a pack of lies to cover his own ass
Stoning is what Jews practised 3000 years ago. Stoning is something only Muslims practice today, because Muhammad made it an eternal command.
Jesus never stoned anyone. In fact, the "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" incident is one of the most well-known lessons of the Bible.
"And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto Him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto Him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the Law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest Thou?"
"This they said, tempting Him, that they might have to accuse Him."
"But Jesus stooped down, and with His finger wrote on the ground, as though He heard them not. So when they continued asking Him, He lifted up Himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
"And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst."
"When Jesus had lifted up Himself, and saw none but the woman, He said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? Hath no man condemned thee?"
"She said, No man, Lord."
"And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." (John 8:2-11 KJV)
Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
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Its the same with FGM and marrying 4 wives, cultural traditions some didnt want to lose hold of so what other way is there than to invent 'hadith' saying the prophet allowed this? And to say the rediculous that there WAS a verse saying this but was abrogated and it no longer there then if thats the case why still USE it??
Did I understand you right when you said here that marrying four wives is not mentioned in the Quran? Please correct me.
I didnt say it was not mentioned in Quran, it is, but it is also mentioned that you can do this IF you can treat them fairly and in 4:129 you are told quite clearly that Allah KNOWS YOU CANT no matter how much you try therefore = 1 is better for you. but man in his infinite wisdom thinks he knows better than Allah and carries on marrying up to 4 'coz Allah said he can' Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by unfinished thought.: Surah 24:2
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
Sahih Bukhari: Volume 8, Book 82, Number 815:
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid: While we were with the Prophet, a man stood up and said (to the Prophet ), "I beseech you by Allah, that you should judge us according to Allah's Laws." Then the man's opponent who was wiser than him, got up saying (to Allah's Apostle) "Judge us according to Allah's Law and kindly allow me (to speak)." The Prophet said, "Speak." He said, "My son was a laborer working for this man and he committed an illegal sexual intercourse with his wife, and I gave one-hundred sheep and a slave as a ransom for my son's sin. Then I asked a learned man about this case and he informed me that my son should receive one hundred lashes and be exiled for one year, and the man's wife should be stoned to death." The Prophet said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, I will judge you according to the Laws of Allah. Your one-hundred sheep and the slave are to be returned to you, and your son has to receive one-hundred lashes and be exiled for one year. O Unais! Go to the wife of this man, and if she confesses, then stone her to death." Unais went to her and she confessed. He then stoned her to death.
What an A-hole. Religion is all bullshit.
are you all blind? This hadith does NOT match what Quran says, its is CONTRADICTORY to Quran and the punishment is NOT equal and there are no 4 witnesses! It is BS!
Does that mean Muhammed didnt say or do it?? A fake Hadith?? Hasnt Muhammed become the imperson/picture of Islam/muslims??
Tibe, if God told His prophet a certain rule then how could he go against that? It is specific in Quran so Muhammed is not going to go his own way and stone someone when God said lashing. Muhammed would certainly not have treated the man in one way and the woman in another, the Quran is equal punishment for both the man and the woman and its lashing NOT stoning. Stoning was in use way before this and is from Torah, these men had to have a way to keep hold of their 'cultural traditions' after Muhammed died which is why the hadith do NOT match Quran even though they have 'supposedly' been 'scientifically sorted' to throw out any that contradict Quran, this one clearly does!
Its the same with FGM and marrying 4 wives, cultural traditions some didnt want to lose hold of so what other way is there than to invent 'hadith' saying the prophet allowed this? And to say the rediculous that there WAS a verse saying this but was abrogated and it no longer there then if thats the case why still USE it??
So does that mean that if the hadith is good - its true and usefull but if its saying something bad its lies or useless??? Im not a muslim-cristian or jew. Never had the desire to follow any old books or rules but still i find it interesting to discuss. (Please forgive if it sounds harsh, - i just like to challenge things by questioning them )
doesnt sound harsh tibe and its good to question things, especially religion whether you believe or not you have a right to ask questions.
First I do not think hadith should be used as part of Islam, they are not from God and there are numerous posts here relating to hadith, when they could have been collected and the timings involved etc, I doubt all of them to be actually anything to do with the prophet and when we are told repeatedly about the 'scientific' ways of searching through and sorting them and classifying them into 'sahih' etc makes me laugh. the one thing they do say is if it doesnt match Quran its thrown out as false, this one obviously doesnt match Quran so why is it still there as 'sahih' hadith?? because then they invent that it 'used to be there' but was abrogated, leaving one to think that they are making Quran fit with hadith instead of the other way round.
The rules are all in Quran, it says its complete it says it has the rules then why does man need to add more?? because he needs it to fit with what MAN wants, as man did before and we were warned about IN Quran.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Okay Ayisha, thank you, I thought so too. Are you aware that denying the Sunna or Prophetic traditions and sayings would be looked upon as denying Islam itself from the point of view of practically all Muslims? The way they see it, (and it was displayed here before by one of the members) that Hadith clarifies certain aspects in the Quran.
One thing always lingered in my mind concerning the stoning issue by the way. If we would agree that stoning was imposed by Omar Ibn El Khatab as some historians say, yet why do Shia’s use it till today like in Iran? They totally deny anything narrated by Omar nor his son, but why that specific issue? If we agree that stoning was not mentioned in Quran, might it be that this practice was approved by a higher authority than Omar, maybe the Prophet himself?
Posts: 657 | From: Cairo | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
This story feeld a bit like some people loose their own mind when the become muslims. The follow the old traditions and rules and dont care about compassion or normal moral in year 2009. The loose their brain down in and old book full of strange thoughts about how people should live and behave. Is compassion and tolerance forbidden in Islamic socity???
Posts: 1325 | From: For tooti http://www.csa.gov.uk/ | Registered: May 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Sub-zero: [QB] Okay Ayisha, thank you, I thought so too. Are you aware that denying the Sunna or Prophetic traditions and sayings would be looked upon as denying Islam itself from the point of view of practically all Muslims? The way they see it, (and it was displayed here before by one of the members) that Hadith clarifies certain aspects in the Quran.
subz I am well aware that the majority of muslims would consider me a kafir, I have been called it enough times. I do not deny Islam, the Islam that Allah gave in His Books, I deny the man made Islam that most follow today as did the Jews and Christians, also warned about in Quran. I do not need a label of 'Muslim' to BE muslim and I will be judged by Allah alone. If the hadith worshippers consider me not a muslim then I would refer them to the hadith where it is said if one Muslim calls another a non-muslim, then one if them is certainly not muslim. I dont know the number or book thats in but it is sahih. if the hadith worshippers would care to have a verse from Quran also: 6:116 Wert thou to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead thee away from the way of Allah. They follow nothing but conjecture: they do nothing but lie.
quote:One thing always lingered in my mind concerning the stoning issue by the way. If we would agree that stoning was imposed by Omar Ibn El Khatab as some historians say, yet why do Shia’s use it till today like in Iran? They totally deny anything narrated by Omar nor his son, but why that specific issue? If we agree that stoning was not mentioned in Quran, might it be that this practice was approved by a higher authority than Omar, maybe the Prophet himself?
I dont see how it could be and again refer to what I said earlier. Muhammed got his rules from Allah, not from his own thoughts or ideas, if Allah gave a specific rule for a certain thing can you really see Muhammed going over His head and applying his own rules? As for shia I dont know a lot about them but they do have strange practices as far as I know like lashing and cutting themselves and such. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Tibe still working: This story feeld a bit like some people loose their own mind when the become muslims. The follow the old traditions and rules and dont care about compassion or normal moral in year 2009. The loose their brain down in and old book full of strange thoughts about how people should live and behave. Is compassion and tolerance forbidden in Islamic socity???
No tibe, in Islam it should ALL be about compassion and tollerance, according to Quran anyway. All the way through it will give rules for this or that punishment yet at the same time it tells you if you repent then Allah is the most comapssionate, the most merciful.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Tibe still working: This story feeld a bit like some people loose their own mind when the become muslims. The follow the old traditions and rules and dont care about compassion or normal moral in year 2009. The loose their brain down in and old book full of strange thoughts about how people should live and behave. Is compassion and tolerance forbidden in Islamic socity???
No tibe, in Islam it should ALL be about compassion and tollerance, according to Quran anyway. All the way through it will give rules for this or that punishment yet at the same time it tells you if you repent then Allah is the most comapssionate, the most merciful.
Yes but where are the tolerance in rules and punishments?? Especially rules that is against human nature such as premarital sex and why are women punished harder for the same crime than men are. Men given lashes and women being stoned to death. Why does they witness' to a crime have to be muslims and men (like with rape). Where is the tolerance and compassion in that?
Posts: 1325 | From: For tooti http://www.csa.gov.uk/ | Registered: May 2009
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posted
verse 25:68 says about adultery and fornication, that they should be punished.
verse 25:69 says the punishment will be doubled in heaven
verse 25:70 then says 'unless they repent' and work righteous deeds etc
how can one repent if one is stoned to death? Its clear by this that the punishment is lashing, then one can repent after the punishment, but not if you are stoned to death.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Tibe still working: This story feeld a bit like some people loose their own mind when the become muslims. The follow the old traditions and rules and dont care about compassion or normal moral in year 2009. The loose their brain down in and old book full of strange thoughts about how people should live and behave. Is compassion and tolerance forbidden in Islamic socity???
No tibe, in Islam it should ALL be about compassion and tollerance, according to Quran anyway. All the way through it will give rules for this or that punishment yet at the same time it tells you if you repent then Allah is the most comapssionate, the most merciful.
Yes but where are the tolerance in rules and punishments?? Especially rules that is against human nature such as premarital sex and why are women punished harder for the same crime than men are. Men given lashes and women being stoned to death. Why does they witness' to a crime have to be muslims and men (like with rape). Where is the tolerance and compassion in that?
This is what im saying tibe, Quran gives the same punishment to men and women, there is no lashing for men and stoning for women, that is hadith and its from MAN not from GOD. Quran says for adultery and fornication 100 lashes, for BOTH men and women, man in his infinite wisdom has decided differently.
There has to be 4 witnesses to the ACT of sex, now unless they are doing it as a show in front of witnesses how is that ever going to happen?? Also if someone accuses someone of adultery and its false the accuser is lashed for lying. All in all SHOULD make people very careful about who they accuse of what and to be damned sure they can prove it, which does NOT happen today with using hadith to back up the MAN made rules they go by.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Ayisha, are you going to argue the facts we as Muslims know to be our faith of Islam the word of Allah with a group of polytheistic and atheist mortals ??? Are you outa your mind ??!! Let them go astray, what do you care ?
Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: The rules are all in Quran, it says its complete
But it's not. The Quran without hadith is not complete. In hadith for example, you are given detailed instructions as to how perform the salat. If the Quran was complete why would Gabriel needed to teach it to Muhammad? Obviously the Quran was not enough and that is why Gabriel had to show to Muhammad how to perform the prayer. Then Muhammad explained that orally to his followers. That is what constitutes hadith. Therefore, again we see that without the hadith, not even the pillars of Islam can be practiced. Of course, there is a lot more to hadith. It is also the source of the history of Islam and that is the most important function of it. Islam will not become meaningless even if Muslims prayed differently, but without a history, the very existence of Muhammad can be questioned.
So you see the Quran is not complete. As a matter of fact, Quran is wrong in almost all its assertions. Every objective person can see that. Yet, you refuse to acknowledge the obvious. You insist the Quran is complete and perfect,
This is how you prove your claim that ‘the Quran is divine’: The Quran is divine because it is a perfect and error free book.
And this how you prove your claim that ‘the Quran contains no errors’: It is illogical to say the Quran contains errors, because it is divine and perfect.
This is what I call circular reasoning.
Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: Ayisha, are you going to argue the facts we as Muslims know to be our faith of Islam the word of Allah with a group of polytheistic and atheist mortals ??? Are you outa your mind ??!! Let them go astray, what do you care ?
LOL Dzosser would you have me clap them in irons or hang them or stone them perhaps? for asking questions? What do I care?? I care because we all have questions at some point and asking those questions shouldnt be seen as an invitation to discriminate. At one time I asked a lot of questions and if I hadnt found answers to those questions maybe I wouldnt be Muslim today. Who are we to know whats in the heart of another person, Allah guides all people in different ways, one is to ask questions. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: Ayisha, are you going to argue the facts we as Muslims know to be our faith of Islam the word of Allah with a group of polytheistic and atheist mortals ??? Are you outa your mind ??!! Let them go astray, what do you care ?
LOL Dzosser would you have me clap them in irons or hang them or stone them perhaps? for asking questions? What do I care?? I care because we all have questions at some point and asking those questions shouldnt be seen as an invitation to discriminate. At one time I asked a lot of questions and if I hadnt found answers to those questions maybe I wouldnt be Muslim today. Who are we to know whats in the heart of another person, Allah guides all people in different ways, one is to ask questions.
There is bad attitudes and there is good attitudes - perfect example
Thanks for answering my critical questions Ayisha Posts: 1325 | From: For tooti http://www.csa.gov.uk/ | Registered: May 2009
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