posted
There were no homos in ancient egypt,libya and kush and basically the whole of africa,homosexuality is considered an abomination by africans,in traditional times it was punishable by death. Most of the hebrew laws,they got them from africans.Most of the 'laws of moses' existed in ancient egypt even before the jews adopted them. Everything you need to know about african religion and concept of God,is in this book Concepts of God in Africa by John s Mbiti. Yea,i know about the alleged paintings of homos in egypt,one word FAKES.Those paintings are fakes.
Posts: 306 | From: Kenya | Registered: Dec 2013
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QUOTE]Originally posted by LEDAMA: Yea,i know about the alleged paintings of homos in egypt,one word FAKES.Those paintings are fakes.
Either you have proof something is fake or you don't . Otherwise you are just blowing hot air [/QUOTE
yes i have proof,the holding hands and kissing on the mouth thing..i wouldnt even post the painting,white people try so hard to impose homosexuality on africans,that they had to come up with that fake painting. black people never kissed on the mouth,in the ancient times.that **** came with white people.. Unless ofcourse you believe ancient egyptians were not black africans.I am a kenyan,i live in the greatlakes region,none of the tribes here condoned such habits.and dont bring that kabaka mukasa ****,yes.he got away with it,because he was KING.
Posts: 306 | From: Kenya | Registered: Dec 2013
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yes i have proof,the holding hands and kissing on the mouth thing..i wouldnt even post the painting,white people try so hard to impose homosexuality on africans,that they had to come up with that fake painting. black people never kissed on the mouth,in the ancient times.that **** came with white people.. Unless ofcourse you believe ancient egyptians were not black africans.I am a kenyan,i live in the greatlakes region,none of the tribes here condoned such habits.and dont bring that kabaka mukasa ****,yes.he got away with it,because he was KING.
Since you are describing a painting that doesn't appear in the video it means you haven't watched the video and are unfamiliar with the research
So stop blowing hot air, thanks
Posts: 42935 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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That is bulshit.white people just wanted to convince africans to accept this abomination. I am african,trust me.i know more about africans than whitey bulshit researcher.When africans say something is UN-AFRICAN.trust me they know IT IS UNAFRICAN.And you wouldn't convince them otherwise.I am sorry you african americans live in a eurocentric society,and this bulshit was successfully pushed down your throats by homo-whitey lobby groups BUT NOT US(black africans).Homosexuality will never be legalised or accepted in black african societies.NOT IN KENYA,NOT IN UGANDA,NOT IN TANZANIA,NOT IN RWANDA,BURUNDI,NOT IN NIGERIA,GHANA,ETHIOPIA,SUDAN E.T.C.Maybe south africa because they have significant 'white' population among them.It is safe to say,homosexuality is a WHITE THING,but it is not a BLACK THING.you can get butthurt if you want,but what i have said is nothing but the truth,ADIOS
Posts: 306 | From: Kenya | Registered: Dec 2013
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Stephen O. Murray (born 1950), is a sociologist, anthropologist
His main areas of fieldwork have been the North America United States Mexico, Canada, Taiwan and Mexico, though he co-edited books on homosexualities in sub-Saharan Africa and across the Islamic world with Will Roscoe.
With Regna Darnell, he co-edits the monographic series "Critical Studies in the History of Anthropology" for the University of Nebraska Press. He worked for more than a decade in public health with California county health departments and has also written on public health issues, particularly in regard to HIV/AIDS.
He has positions on the editorial boards of several social science journals including the Journal of Homosexuality and the Histories of Anthropology Annual, and is a contributor to the online encyclopedia of gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender and queer culture, GLBTQ and other reference volumes ---
a fag looking for fags where they do not exist. The gay agenda continues.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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That is bulshit.white people just wanted to convince africans to accept this abomination. I am african,trust me.i know more about africans than whitey bulshit researcher.When africans say something is UN-AFRICAN.trust me they know IT IS UNAFRICAN.And you wouldn't convince them otherwise.I am sorry you african americans live in a eurocentric society,and this bulshit was successfully pushed down your throats by homo-whitey lobby groups BUT NOT US(black africans).Homosexuality will never be legalised or accepted in black african societies.NOT IN KENYA,NOT IN UGANDA,NOT IN TANZANIA,NOT IN RWANDA,BURUNDI,NOT IN NIGERIA,GHANA,ETHIOPIA,SUDAN E.T.C.Maybe south africa because they have significant 'white' population among them.It is safe to say,homosexuality is a WHITE THING,but it is not a BLACK THING.you can get butthurt if you want,but what i have said is nothing but the truth,ADIOS
Tell them,Ledama! I tried to tell them but many here would rather rely on Anglo c ocksmers who have their own agenda. Uwaambie ukweli wa mambo! Btw,check your PM about your thread on Amhara/kikuyu dna. I sent you smth.
Posts: 433 | From: nairobi | Registered: Oct 2011
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That is bulshit.white people just wanted to convince africans to accept this abomination. I am african,trust me.i know more about africans than whitey bulshit researcher.When africans say something is UN-AFRICAN.trust me they know IT IS UNAFRICAN.And you wouldn't convince them otherwise.I am sorry you african americans live in a eurocentric society,and this bulshit was successfully pushed down your throats by homo-whitey lobby groups BUT NOT US(black africans).Homosexuality will never be legalised or accepted in black african societies.NOT IN KENYA,NOT IN UGANDA,NOT IN TANZANIA,NOT IN RWANDA,BURUNDI,NOT IN NIGERIA,GHANA,ETHIOPIA,SUDAN E.T.C.Maybe south africa because they have significant 'white' population among them.It is safe to say,homosexuality is a WHITE THING,but it is not a BLACK THING.you can get butthurt if you want,but what i have said is nothing but the truth,ADIOS
Tell them,Ledama! I tried to tell them but many here would rather rely on Anglo c ocksmers who have their own agenda. Uwaambie ukweli wa mambo! Btw,check your PM about your thread on Amhara/kikuyu dna. I sent you smth.
Habari yako ndugu,kumbe kuna mkenya mwenzangu hapa!salamz kikuyu22.
Posts: 306 | From: Kenya | Registered: Dec 2013
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Stephen O. Murray (born 1950), is a sociologist, anthropologist
His main areas of fieldwork have been the North America United States Mexico, Canada, Taiwan and Mexico, though he co-edited books on homosexualities in sub-Saharan Africa and across the Islamic world with Will Roscoe.
With Regna Darnell, he co-edits the monographic series "Critical Studies in the History of Anthropology" for the University of Nebraska Press. He worked for more than a decade in public health with California county health departments and has also written on public health issues, particularly in regard to HIV/AIDS.
He has positions on the editorial boards of several social science journals including the Journal of Homosexuality and the Histories of Anthropology Annual, and is a contributor to the online encyclopedia of gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender and queer culture, GLBTQ and other reference volumes ---
a fag looking for fags where they do not exist. The gay agenda continues.
Hahaha,tell them xayman.
Posts: 306 | From: Kenya | Registered: Dec 2013
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posted
About 4% of Human beings are naturally gay. The same is the case in Africa. There is also homosexuality in many animal species. Certain forms of homosexuality are traditional in Africa but are kept at a relatively low profile aacording to this percentage. The backlash against gays in Africa has a lot to do with the fact that largely that the Northern half of Africa was converted to Islam and the Southern half to Christianity, both foreign religions. Both are book based religions that do not acknowledge traditional African tribal beliefs despite Anglican priest Johm Mbiti's attempts to cite similarities in Christianity to some Africna beliefs.
Drawing on anthropological studies of the pre-colonial and colonial eras, it is possible to document a vast array of same-sex practises and diverse understandings of gender across the entire continent.
Examples include:
In the late 1640s, a Dutch military attaché documented Nzinga, a warrior woman in the Ndongo kingdom of the Mbundu, who ruled as ‘‘king” rather than ‘‘queen”, dressed as a man and surrounded herself with a harem of young men who dressed as women and who were her ‘‘wives”.
Eighteenth century anthropologist, Father J-B. Labat, documented the Ganga-Ya-Chibanda, presiding priest of the Giagues, a group within the Congo kingdom, who routinely cross-dressed and was referred to as ‘‘grandmother”.
In traditional, monarchical Zande culture, anthropological records described homosexuality as ‘‘indigenous”. The Azande of the Northern Congo ‘‘routinely married” younger men who functioned as temporary wives – a practise that was institutionalised to such an extent that warriors would pay ‘‘brideprice” to the young man”s parents.
Amongst Bantu-speaking Pouhain farmers (Bene, Bulu, Fang, Jaunde, Mokuk, Mwele, Ntum and Pangwe) in present-day Gabon and Cameroon, homosexual intercourse was known as bian nkû”ma– a medicine for wealth which was transmitted through sexual activity between men.
Similarly in Uganda, amongst the Nilotico Lango, men who assumed ‘‘alternative gender status” were known as mukodo dako. They were treated as women and were permitted to marry other men.
In the former Kingdom of Dahomey, women could be soldiers (above) and older women would sometimes marry younger women, according to anthropologist Melville Herkovits.
Same-sex relationships were reported amongst other groups in Uganda, including the Bahima, …
the Banyoro and … the Baganda. King Mwanga II, the Baganda monarch, was widely reported to have engaged in sexual relations with his male subjects.
A Jesuit working in Southern Africa in 1606 described finding ‘‘Chibadi, which are Men attired like Women, and behave themselves womanly, ashamed to be called men”.
In the early 17th century in present-day Angola, Portuguese priests Gaspar Azevereduc and Antonius Sequerius encountered men who spoke, sat and dressed like women, and who entered into marriage with men. Such marriages were ‘‘honored and even prized”.
In the Iteso communities, based in northwest Kenya and Uganda, same-sex relations existed amongst men who behaved as and were socially accepted as women. Same-sex practises were also recorded among the Banyoro and … the Langi. In pre-colonial Benin, homosexuality was seen as a phase that boys passed through and grew out of. There were practises of female-female marriages amongst the Nandi and … Kisii of Kenya, as well as … the Igbo of Nigeria, the Nuer of Sudan and the Kuria of Tanzania. Among Cape Bantu, lesbianism was ascribed to women who were in the process of becoming chief diviners, known as isanuses.
This is by no means an exhaustive list. Numerous reports also indicate that in the highly sex-segregated societies of Africa, homosexual behaviour and relationships were not uncommon among peers, both male and female, especially in the years before heterosexual marriage. These kinds of relations were identified with specific terms and were to varying degrees institutionalized.
What the colonisers imposed on Africa was not homosexuality “but rather intolerance of it — and systems of surveillance and regulation for suppressing it.”
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The Portuguese were among the first Europeans to explore the continent. They noted the range of gender relations in African societies and referred to the "unnatural damnation" of male-to-male sex in Congo. Andrew Battell, an English traveller in the 1590s, wrote this of the Imbangala of Angola: "They are beastly in their living, for they have men in women's apparel, whom they keep among their wives."
Transvestism occurred in many different places, including Madagascar and Ethiopia. Among the Pangwe people of present-day Cameroon and Gabon, homosexual intercourse was practised between males of all ages. It was believed to be a way to transmit wealth. The Nzima of Ghana had a tradition of adult men marrying each other, usually with an age difference of about 10 years. Similar to the pederasty of ancient Greece, Sudan's Zande tribe had a tradition of warriors marrying boys and paying a bride price, as they would for girl brides, to their parents. When the boy grew up, he too became a warrior and took a boy-wife.
In this same tribe lesbianism was practised in polygamous households. In the 18th century the Khoikhoi of South Africa used the word koetsire to describe men considered sexually receptive to other men, and soregus was the word they used for a friendship which involved same-sex masturbation.
Homosexuality is also recorded among the Siwa of Egypt. It was considered a boy's rite of passage in Benin, and woman-woman marriages involving a bride price existed in more than 30 African societies from Nigeria to Kenya to South Africa.
How far back can homosexuality be traced in Africa? You cannot argue with rock paintings. Thousands of years ago, the San people of Zimbabwe depicted anal sex between men. The truth is that, like everywhere else, African people have expressed a wide range of sexualities. Far from bringing homosexuality with them, Christian and Islamic forces fought to eradicate it. By challenging the continent's indigenous social and religious systems, they helped demonise and persecute homosexuality in Africa, paving the way for the taboos that prevail today.
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posted
I don’t know much about African culture and customs. But I would trust the word of the continentals who understand their own culture over a non-African person who don’t understand these peoples customs.
But reading what you posted on Nzinga. What makes you think she is gay? She plays dress up but still was fughking men. Ok so she is the modern than day ”leather and lace” whipping men while at it.
Bad example Lioness.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Examples include:
In the late 1640s, a Dutch military attaché documented Nzinga, a warrior woman in the Ndongo kingdom of the Mbundu, who ruled as ‘‘king” rather than ‘‘queen”, dressed as a man and surrounded herself with a harem of young men who dressed as women and who were her ‘‘wives”.
Eighteenth century anthropologist, Father J-B. Labat, documented the Ganga-Ya-Chibanda, presiding priest of the Giagues, a group within the Congo kingdom, who routinely cross-dressed and was referred to as ‘‘grandmother”.
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posted
Come-on. I need help here African brothas. Lioness is hammering me.
My rebuttal ?
It is widely unacceptable in modern African societies(case in point Ugandan laws) today unlike in modern European societies which tells me all the above may be BS, or lies. Sources?
Even in African American(California referendum), and Caribbean societies it is also unacceptable which tells me it is unblack or unAfrican. We understand the Law of Nature and are not caught up in filthy bad habits.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
One of the Egyptian 42 commandments of Maat condemn homosexuality. Homosexuality was probably a West Asian behavior practiced by the Canaanites, Syrians, Mesopotamians,Arabs and a Europeans behavior practiced by the Greeks, Romans, Celts, Scythians, Khazars.
Homosexuality is a sacred act in some ancient West Asian religions and secret society religions.
The Sacred Celibacy of Catholic Priests derives directly and solely from the continuation of the rituals and ceremonies concerning the worshipping of the Goddess Mother, the Queen of Heaven variously known as Inanna, Athena, Cybele and Mary, mother of god.
These rituals date back to at least 1500 BCE and when Cybele was brought to Rome as the Magna Mater (Great protector) in 204 BCE to Vatican Hill, the rituals of sacred celibacy from which Clerical Celibacy of Catholic Priests is directly derived.
Absolutely nothing concerning the Sacred Celibacy of Catholic Priests has anything to do with the early church fathers, their rules or the behaviour of the Apostles. Early church fathers were recognized as being married, as were the Apostles.
Even when celibacy began to be forced upon priests of the church from the middle of the 12th Century by Popes of the Roman Death Cult faction, it was for clergy of lower rank than Bishops. Bishops, Cardinals and Popes continued to father illegitimate children with abundance up until as late as the 17th Century. It was only the lower clergy who were gradually forced to adopt the extreme rights and practices of the pagan Goddess Cybele and her eunich son Attis.
The word Celibacy
The word "Celibacy" is first recorded in English from the 17th Century and claimed from the 12th Century Latin cælibatus "state of being unmarried" and cælebs "unmarried".
However, a much older Latin word coeleb meaning "bachelor" existed prior to the creation of these 12th Century forms, which strongly indicates the assumed etymology for Celibacy has been deliberately corrupted.
Instead, the word is much more likely formed from the combination of two ancient Latin terms celo "to hide, conceal, keep secret" and liber "child, offspring" (liber also later corrupted to mean book). Hence, the true meaning of Celibacy as 1st formed by the Roman Death Cult probably means literally " to hide, conceal and keep secret children and offspring".
This is crucially important as it indicates that as early as the 12th Century when the Roman Death Cult first introduced the Cybele practice of non-marriage of its priests, it did not demand they become modern equivalent of eunuchs but to merely "hide" their offpspring as permanent bachelors.
The Galla
The celebrations of Attis around the Day of Blood, were also significant as the time upon which new initiates to the priesthood of Cybele showed their utmost devotion in cutting off their own genitals in a bloody frenzy and celebration.
The Galla, also later written as the Galli were the lowest rung in the order of priestly service to Magna Mater on Vatican Hill. The most senior was the High Priestess and then later the High priest under Emperor Claudius.
Subordinate were the Archgalla (later the role of Bishops and Cardinals), followed by the priestesses, the sacred prostitutes who were "Brides of Attis". The lowest being the ordinary Galla (Galli).
On the Day of Blood (dies sanguinis) the Galla initiate forever discarded his male attire; henceforth he wore a long garment (stola), mostly yellow or many coloured with long sleeves and a belt. On their heads these priests wore a mitra, a sort of turban, or a tiara, the cap with long ear flaps which could be tied under the chin.
The chest was adorned with ornaments, and sometimes they wore ornamental reliefs, pendants, ear-rings and finger-rings. They also wore their hair long, which earned for them the epithet of "long-haired," they sometimes dedicated a lock of hair to the goddess.
By preference they had their hair bleached. On the day of mourning for Attis they ran around wildly with disheveled hair, but otherwise they had their hair dressed and waved like women. Sometimes they were heavily made up, their faces resembling white washed walls. The galli were also very conspicuous when they showed themselves in the city outside the temple precincts.
With a procession of enthusiastic followers they wandered about begging; in exchange for alms they were prepared to tell people's fortunes (vaticinari); they performed their dances to shrill music of the pipes and the dull beat of the tambourine. When the deity entered into them and they were possessed by divine power they flogged themselves until the blood came."
The origin of the Galla and their forced celibacy
While popular mythology connects the behaviour of the Galla (Galli) displaying extreme devotion primarily emulating the god Attis in cutting off their genitals and becoming women, there existed a much older and deeper function.
It relates to secret mysteries and powers believed that priests might access if they forever eliminated the distraction of male sexual urges.
In Sumerian-Akkadian myth the Galla were daemons of the underworld, who disposed of the corpse of the dead. Literally they were the servants of Ereshkigal, Goddess of the Underworld.
When Inanna's father, Enki, heard that Inanna had descended to the underworld and did not return, He took dirt from under his fingernail and from this made Kurgarra and Galatur [that which repels Galla] and sent them to the underworld where Inanna's corpse was given to them.
"The Kurgarra sprinkled the food of life on the corpse. The Galatur sprinkled the water of life on the corpse. Inanna arose..." But when, "Inanna was about to ascend from the underworld When the Annaua, the judges of the underworld seized her. They said: `No one ascends from the underworld unmarked. If Inanna wishes to return from the underworld, She must provide someone in her place.'"
Inanna agrees and the large Galla and the small Galla follow her to the world above where she sends her unfaithful husband, Dumuzi, to take her place.
"The Galla were demons who know no food who know no drink, Who eat no offerings, who drink no libations, Who accept no gifts. They enjoy no lovemaking. They have no sweet children to kiss. They tear the wife from the husband's arms, They tear the child from the father's knees, They steal the bride from her marriage home."
In other words, they were the daemons of death, and it appears that the castrated Galli-priests of Attis performed much the same ritual of sending the castrated Adonis-Attis-Dumuzi to the underworld.
The importance of Sacred Homosexuality and the Galla (Galli)
The other most important aspect of the Galla, the Catholic Priests and the continuation of the worship of Cybele is the distinction of what is Celibacy and an abstinance of sex. Originally, the Galla cut of their genitals, so they could no longer perform sex acts as men.
This did not preclude them from having sex -quite the opposite, it opened the door for sacred homosexual acts where there Galla were sodomized during various ritual and celebrations.
Such homosexuality was considered so sacred that the promotion of homosexuality outside of a religious context was frowned upon by the priests and supporters of Cybele. Open homosexuality was considered an afront to its sacred and ancient nature.
This policy has continued today with the Roman Catholic Church strongly against open homosexuality, while sacred homosexuality between its clergy remains as strong as it has been since the days of the Galla.
But reading what you posted on Nzinga. What makes you think she is gay? She plays dress up but still was fughking men. Ok so she is the modern than day ”leather and lace” whipping men while at it.
Bad example Lioness.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Examples include:
In the late 1640s, a Dutch military attaché documented Nzinga, a warrior woman in the Ndongo kingdom of the Mbundu, who ruled as ‘‘king” rather than ‘‘queen”, dressed as a man and surrounded herself with a harem of young men who dressed as women and who were her ‘‘wives”.
Eighteenth century anthropologist, Father J-B. Labat, documented the Ganga-Ya-Chibanda, presiding priest of the Giagues, a group within the Congo kingdom, who routinely cross-dressed and was referred to as ‘‘grandmother”.
read it again the bolded. You have extracted one item
I don’t know much about African culture and customs. But I would trust the word of the continentals who understand their own culture over a non-African person who don’t understand these peoples customs.
First determine if these continentals have studied the whole huge continent of Africa, many thousands of different ethnic groups
and then determine if if these continentals are biased religious adhernents to the Bible or Qur'an rather than adherants to Traditional African Religion
People have a superstition level paranoia about homosexuals becuase the homosexuals are tired of being harassed and brutalized. Their voice therefore is louder now. However there is nothing to worry about because homosexuality can't be taught. It is by and large a natural inclination that occurs in only about 4% of human beings. This should not worry the heterosexuals. Only people worried about their own sexuality, who are worried if tempting thoughts might pop into their minds, these are the people who are worried, people who are on the edge. They are the ones who hate the most
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One of the Egyptian 42 commandments of Maat condemn homosexuality. Homosexuality was probably a West Asian behavior practiced by the Canaanites, Syrians, Mesopotamians,Arabs and a Europeans behavior practiced by the Greeks, Romans, Celts, Scythians, Khazars.
Homosexuality is a sacred act in some ancient West Asian religions and secret society religions.
There are different tranaslations of 42 Negative Confessions and There is little surviving literature that describes the practice of ancient Egyptian law. Maat was the spirit in which justice was applied rather than the detailed legalistic exposition of rules.
The lines of these texts are often collectively called the "Forty-Two Declarations of Purity".[27] These declarations varied somewhat from tomb to tomb as they were tailored to the individual, and so cannot be considered a canonical definition of Maat. Rather, they appear to express each tomb owner's individual practices in life to please Maat, as well as words of absolution from misdeeds or mistakes, made by the tomb owner in life could be declared as not having been done, and through the power of the written word, wipe particular misdeed from the afterlife record of the deceased.
Homosexulaity in Ancient Egypt
Studying homosexuality in ancient Egypt is a difficult task. Not a single legal text has survived from ancient Egypt (in contrast to elsewhere in the ancient Near East); and no sure evidence points to cult prostitution taking root there (until the late Roman period). In fact, sexual intercourse was viewed as ritually defiling in sacred places.2 Explicitly sexual motifs in art and literature are limited, and coded images and metaphors often confront the investigator. Also, as Egyptologist R.B. Parkinson puts it, “the subject [of homosexuality in ancient Egypt] is surrounded by modern as well as ancient taboos…”3 Edgar Gregersen noted how some Egyptologists have been embarrassed by statues of the god Min, who is always depicted with an erection; and he reported on one young museum curator who was surprised to discover a box containing over a dozen wooden phalli that had been hacked off of Min statues in the museum and then hidden away.4 Today more open-minded research is being done, although academic homophobia still exists. In this study, we shall focus on six major sources that relate (or have been related) to homosexuality in ancient Egypt: (1) Conflict of Horus and Seth, (2) Book of the Dead, (3) Teaching of Vizier Ptahhotep, (4) Neferkare’s Affair with General Sisene, (5) Akhenaten’s Disappearing Boyfriend, and (6) Tomb of the Two Manicurists.
Conflict of Horus and Seth – One famous story in ancient Egypt describes an extended conflict between the god Osiris and Seth, his rival brother, who murders Osiris and then seeks to remove Horus, Osiris’ son and heir, with his claim to be king of the gods. This narrative, usually referred to as “The Contendings of Horus and Seth,” exists in different versions and dates back to the early Middle Kingdom (2040-1674 B.C.), with origins that are probably older.5 The earliest longest version, dated c. 1160 B.C., late in 20th Dynasty in the New Kingdom,6 describes how
“Seth said to Horus: ‘Come let us spend a pleasant hour at my house.’ Horus answered, ‘With pleasure, with pleasure.’ When it was evening a bed was spread for them and they lay down. During the night Seth made his penis stiff and he placed it between the loins of Horus. Horus put his hands between his loins and caught the sperm of Seth.7 Then Horus went to his mother, Isis [and said]: ‘Help me…! Come, see what Seth has done to me.’ And he opened his hand and let her see Seth’s semen. With a scream she took her weapon and cut off his hand and threw it in the water, and conjured up for him a hand to make up for it.”8 Then Isis helped Horus ejaculate and smeared his sperm over some lettuce, which was Seth’s favorite vegetable and which she then gave to him to eat. Later, when Seth boasted to the Ennead (the nine gods judging the conflict) that he had done the “work of a male [warrior]”9 on Horus, the gods “screamed aloud, and belched and spat in Horus’ face.”
Wolfhardt Westendorf thinks that the Egyptians looked upon semen as poison when taken into the body in the wrong way – yet Seth did not die here. Still, the gods apparently felt that for Horus to be used like a woman sexually was so incompatible with kingship that they erupted with contempt.10 Seth’s act is usually interpreted as one of dominance and aggression, yet as Dominic Montserrat points out, the story is more complex, because here: (1) Two males, comparatively the same age (adults) and same status (gods), lie down for sexual play. (2) Both rivals are able to penetrate the other, in some way, and therefore may be looked upon as equals. (3) Horus willingly consents to have sexual relations with Seth (although not anal intercourse), who physically desires him (“sweet to his heart”) and unabashedly makes his request known.11
An earlier but shorter version, dated c. 2000 B.C.,12 from the 12th Dynasty in the Middle Kingdom and from Lahun (Kahun), describes what happened a little differently: “The divine person of Seth said to the divine person of Horus: ‘How beautiful are your buttocks, how vital! […] Stretch out your legs …’13 And the Person of Horus said: ‘Watch out; I shall tell [this]!’” Then he ran and told his mother Isis, that Seth desired to sodomize him. “And she said to him: ‘Beware! Do not approach him about it! When he mentions it to you another time, then you shall say to him: “It is too painful for me entirely, as you are heavier than me. My strength [backside] shall not support your strength [erection]…”’14 Then when he gives you his strength, place your fingers between your buttocks. … Lo, he will enjoy it exceedingly (?). [Keep] this seed which has come forth … without letting the sun see it…”15 Later, Isis threw Seth’s semen into a nearby stream, then spread some of Horus’ semen on lettuce and gave it to Seth to eat. Later, when Seth boasted to the gods that he had sexually taken Horus, the youth denied it. To settle the argument, the gods called forth the seed of both. The seed of Seth answered from the water into which Isis had thrown it, while the seed of Horus came forth from Seth’s forehead in the form of a golden disk, which was grabbed by the moon god Thoth to become his symbol.16
This story, of the family of Osiris, who was looked upon as the first human king of Egypt,17 suggests that from the earliest period for a male (god or human) to take, or be forced into, a woman’s role and be anally penetrated was looked upon as humiliating and shameful.18 Yet, at the same time, homosexual desire was known and spoken of openly; and men knew of and some engaged in homosexual play in bed, apart from the degrading act. For Horus to be penetrated was a frightening prospect; yet at the same time his semen in Seth brought benefit to the moon god. So, the signals are rather mixed. Actually Seth only fell into disfavor in the 8th century B.C., when his castration and incineration began to be celebrated in hymns, while earlier kings worshipped him as the god of storms and violence, including the Hyksos rulers in Second Intermediate Period (c.1674-1553 B.C.) and Seti and Ramses in the New Kingdom (13th century B.C.). Only much later did the valiant god become a vile demon.19
Book of the Dead – The Book of the Dead is a compilation of funerary (tomb) texts, gathered together from the 18th-21st Dynasties (1552-945 B.C.), although it derives from earlier sources. These spells were meant to preserve and protect the body, particularly from terrifying demons who were believed to inhabit the region before reaching the blessed kingdom of Osiris. Chapter 125, titled “The Protestation of Guiltlessness,” included two sets of “negative confessions” that the deceased was to declare before Osiris and forty-two other gods, to show that he or she was worthy to be granted eternal life.20 The first series states straightforwardly certain actions that the deceased declares never to have committed, while the second series names and is addressed to specific deities, also disclaiming certain actions. Acts that are considered “impure” include everything from murder (A14), blaspheming a god (A8), using dishonest scales (A25), and committing adultery (B19), to lying (B9), being quarrelsome (B25), being loud-mouthed (B37), and making someone weep (A13). Clearly no one could say that he or she had never done any of these things! Perhaps Hans Goedicke is right (1967) when he suggested that the deceased only picked those declarations that could truthfully be made, while overlooking the others.21 In any case, four of the declarations are relevant to our discussion; the initial translations are by John Wilson (in J.B. Pritchard22):
(A20) “I have not had sexual relations with a boy.” Parkinson notes that this reads, “I did not nk a nkk(w),” which is best translated as “I did not sexually penetrate another male,” not indicating any age bracket.23 Later inscriptions in the temple at Edfu (in Memphis) and in a papyrus from Tanis stated that it was a taboo “to unite oneself with an hm [effeminate male] or with a nkk [passive homosexual].”24 Yet, other versions of A20 are more general, stating something like “I have not committed fornication.” (Budge, 1951) or “I have not copulated [illicitly].” (Allen, 1960; cf. Faulkner, 1972).25
(B27) “O His-Face-Behind-Him, who comes forth from Tep-het-djat, I have not been perverted; I have not had sexual relations with a boy [a male].” Tep-het-djat was a sanctuary in the region of Memphis, the northern capital of Egypt (about 12 miles south of modern Cairo) during the Early Dynastic Period and Old Kingdom.26 Budge translates this confession as, “Hail, thou whose face is [turned] backwards, who comes forth from the Dwelling, I have not committed acts of impurity, neither have I lain with men.”27 Posener notes how homosexuality was forbidden in Memphis and two other nomes (provinces).28 Therefore, the question can be raised whether this is a condemnation focused really on the outlawing of sexual acts, whether heterosexual or homosexual, in sacred places.
(A21) I have not defiled myself.” Because of its vagueness, Budge translates this as “I have not polluted myself [in the holy places of the god of my city].” – filling in from the Papyrus of Amenneb (British Museum, No. 9964).29 T.G. Allen translates from the Ryerson Papyrus (OIM No. 787, University of Chicago): “I have not been unchaste, as priest of the city-god.” – drawing from the Turin, Leyden T 2, and L 3074 Papyri.30
(B20) O Maa-Intef, who comes forth from the Temple of Min, I have not defiled myself.” Budge translates this as, “Hail, thou who lookest upon what is brought to him, who comest forth from the Temple of Amsu [Min], I have not committed a sin against purity.”31 Min, an Egpytian fertility god, was normally depicted with an erect penis, which sometimes he held in his left hand. Bunson notes that “his festivals were joyous occasions”32 and one wonders what that meant with a fertility god! As Posener notes, “The Egyptians, who devoted themselves enthusiastically to the pleasures of life, knew how to appreciate the art of ‘spending a merry day’ – to quote their expression.”33 Still, perhaps homosexual acts were frowned upon in the sacred precincts of Min, since they were, in fact, infertile.
At certain points and in certain strata, then, the Book of the Dead does look upon both active and passive homosexuality as a “sexual taboo”34 and as “a deviation from Maat,”35 the goddess and path of universal harmony.36 Yet, at the same time, ample evidence displays a high concern with purity (rather than moral) issues and the prohibiting of sexual intercourse in sacred places and with priests serving their duties in such locales.37
Teaching of Vizier Ptahhotep – The oldest surviving text dates from the 12th Dynasty (1991-1785 B.C.) in the Middle Kingdom, although it may have had an earlier origin.38 Although this “manual of good and polite conduct” was difficult to understand even back in ancient times, these kinds of work were popular. The earliest (and fortunately complete) copy of Vizier Ptahhotep’s manual is contained on the Prisse Papyrus (Bibliotheque Nationale, Paris) and begins, “The teaching of the City Governor and Vizier Ptahhotep under his Majesty the King of Upper and Lower Egypt Izezi [Djedkari Isesi],” who reigned in the 5th Dynasty (c. 2470 B.C.), near the end of the Old Kingdom.39 The term “vizier” (tjaty) in ancient Egypt referred to the chief minister of Egypt, subordinate only to the Pharaoh.40 While this kind of literary work belongs to the most official and idealizing of discourses, it seeks to give practical advice on human dangers and failures. Such teaching could well have been recited at the pharaoh’s command.41 The 32nd maxim (of 45 total) is of special interest here, and reads: “Do not copulate [nk] with a woman-boy [hmt], for you know that / what is (generally) opposed will be a [necessity] to his heart, and that which is in his body will not be calmed. Let him not spend the night doing what is opposed in order that he may be calm after he has [quenched] his desire.”42 Parkinson translates the last line a little differently: “Let him not spend the night doing what is opposed; he shall be cool after destroying [renouncing] his desire.”43 Here Vizier Ptahhotep argues that the nocturnal activities of a ‘woman boy’ will bring him no lasting relief. Nk refers to penetration, and hmt refers to a male who is open to taking the womanly role, although his social status is unclear. In many cultures, women and boys were interchangeable as sexual objects. Parkinson notes that although same-sex penetration is condemned here, it is the passive partner who is demeaned and not the active partner, who has not departed from his appropriate (active) sexual role. It is assumed elsewhere in these maxims (21st, 37th) that the pupil or audience will marry, so the aim of this prohibition is probably to safeguard the morality of the youth. Still, a certain reticence is displayed here toward the active role.44 Any gay person reading this maxim would immediately know that it is written by a heterosexual male, not someone who knows how strong homosexual desire can be and how futile the call for abstinence may also be.
Neferkare’s Affair with General Sisene – Pharaoh Neferkare (Pepi II) and Sisene (or Sasenet), a military commander, lived during the 6th Dynasty (2460-2200 B.C.) in the Old Kingdom. Known from three fragmentary copies, from the 19th–25th Dynasties (1295-656 B.C.), this text also probably originated earlier and had a long reading history.45 Although the beginning of the text is damaged, there is a reference to Sisene amusing the king “because there was no woman [or wife] there with him”; and the word “love [desire]” is mentioned in the line above.46 A little later we read that Teti, a commoner, saw “the divine person of the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Neferkare, going out during the night to walk on his own… [Remaining hidden,] Teti said to himself, ‘if this is the case, then it is true what is said about him, that he goes forth during the night.’ … [Then Teti followed the king, who] arrived at the house of the general Sasenet. He threw up a stone and stamped his foot, at which a [ladder] was lowered down for him. He climbed up, and Teti son of Henet waited... When his divine person had done what he wanted to with [the general], he returned to the palace, and Teti son of Henet followed him...” Teti then notes that the king went to the general’s house at the fourth hour of the night [10 p.m.] and spent four hours there.”47 Montserrat notes that this tale stresses the “clandestine nature of the affair,” points to “rumors [circulating] of the king’s nocturnal cruising,” and “enhances the secrecy” of the affair by describing the king’s sneaking off to meet at the general’s house. Although the narrative implies a censure of homosexuality, Neferkari is “not criticized per se for having sex with another male but for being a bad ruler.”48 Some Egyptologists have suggested that this piece (including the affair) conveys an atmosphere of “royal corruption,” yet Greenberg notes that the description itself is fairly “neutral in tone and non-judgmental.” Still, contemporaries might have looked upon such activity on the part of a king, who was an incarnation of deity, as undignified and inappropriate.49 Yet, the pharaoh evidently had homosexual desires strong enough so that he found a secret lover and a nocturnal way to satisfy them happily, at least until he was discovered.
Akhenaton’s Disappearing Boyfriend – Was there a homoerotic relationship that existed between Akhenaten, 10th ruler (c. 1352-1338 B.C.) of the 18th Dynasty in the New Kingdom, and his co-regent, the youthful Smenkhkare? Akhenaten came to the throne as Amenophis IV, turned from the worship of Amon-Re to Aten (lit. “sun disk”) and changed his name accordingly, and then built a new capital in middle Egypt named Akhetaten (now known as Amarna).50 Also unusual was the way the king had himself portrayed, with feminine-like broad hips, swelling breasts, and large thighs, rather than normally as an ideal young man – and also with a long face, bulbous chin, and plump belly.51 Sir Grafton Elliot Smith suggested that these symptoms might have been caused by Froehlich’s Syndrome, a glandular-hormonal disorder – although this condition also leads to infertility, which would hardly fit Akhenaten, who fathered six surviving daughters by Queen Nefertiti, plus two other girls through his daughters.52 Alwyn Burridge suggested instead Marfan’s Syndrome, caused by an abnormal gene, which also may have led to heart trouble and the king’s early death. Still other Egyptologists believe that Akhenaten had himself portrayed in a bisexual way for theological reasons, e.g. to echo Hapy, the god of Nile flooding, who was deliberately portrayed bisexually to suggest both male and female fertility,53 although this idea also seems speculative.
After the discovery in 1922 of the tomb of Tutankhamen (a child of unknown relationship to Akhenaten),54 Percy Newberry noted that objects had been taken from Smenkhkare’s burial chamber to increase the treasure in Tutankhamen’s tomb; and among these was a box inscribed on its knobs with “Ankheprure beloved of Neferkheprure” and “Neferneferuaten beloved of Waenra.” Decoding these titles, the text would read, “Smenkhkare beloved of Akhenaten” and “Akhenaten beloved of Smenkhkare.”55 Even more unusual, “Neferneferuaten” had formerly been a title borne by Queen Nefertiti, suggesting that in some sense Smenkhkare came to fulfill her role.56 Newberry in his article (1928) also drew attention to a small private stele (upright stone slab) in the Berlin Museum, originally made for a military officer, which showed two kings (identified by their crowns, one the double crown of Upper and Lower Egypt and the other a war crown), nude and sitting side by side. Although the piece is unfinished, with its cartouches blank (ovals which usually contained names), the figures seemed easily identified as Akhenaten and Smenkhkare, the former caressing the youth’s chin while Smenkhkare rests his arm around the older king’s shoulder.57 Two other pieces then also came to mind, a relief of a similar youth pouring wine into Akhenaten’s cup (Berlin Museum) and a sculptor’s trial piece of Akhenaten kissing a child seated on his lap (Egyptian Museum, Cairo) – and some scholars pondered whether these pairs might also include Smenkhkare.58 (Actually the former conveys no sexual meaning, and the child in the latter seems very young.) Subsequently, Egyptologists battled over Akhenaten’s sexual biology and orientation.59 For example, Donald Redford, a Canadian archaeologist, wrote (1984) that he personally disliked “this effete monarch, who could never hunt or do battle,” while Cyril Aldred, Keeper of Art and Archaeology at the Royal Scottish Museum in Edinburgh, saw (1968) “homosexual relations between the elder and the younger monarch” pictured on the Berlin stele, taking into account also the same-sex “beloved” titles, the disappearance of Nefertiti’s name from all records near the end of Akhenaten’s reign, and the king’s physical deformity (although how this latter might be a cause of homosexuality is unclear). Still he warned, the evidence is “slender” and not conclusive.60
Then in 1973 John Harris, studying the seven blank cartouches on the Berlin stele, argued that the four cartouches flanking the sun disk would have contained the name of Aten, while the other three could only have contained the name of a king and a queen, since the name of a king always required two cartouches, but a queen only one. Therefore he concluded that the figure being petted on the chin was Queen Nefertiti, not Ahkenaten’s boyfriend Smenkhkare.61 Nicholas Reeves (2001) details this and other research which has led Egyptologists, on the whole, to believe that Queen Neferititi did not disappear or die but was elevated to co-regent by Akhenaten. She changed her name to “Smenkhkare” and then even succeeded him on the throne for a few years as an independent ruler, similar to the remarkable Queen Hapshetsut (1478-1458 B.C.), who a century earlier had also presented herself as pharaoh, with male attributes and names. So, Smenkhkare may not have been a youth at all, but the great queen in a new disguise!62 Dominic Montserrat, who has written elsewhere in a perceptive way about sex in ancient Egypt, reviews this subject also (2000), takes the gay community to task for claiming that Akhenaten was “the first historical gay person” and a free spirit in some modern sense, and says that “almost nothing reliable is known about Smenkhkare’, not even his or her sex.” He notes how important it is both for historical writing to include a homosexual presence and also not to do violence to the past by reading in things which are not really documented. At the end of his book, he offers no conclusions on who the real Akhenaten and Smenkhkare were;63 and perhaps that’s where the matter must be left. Still, there remains “fierce resistance” on the part of some Egyptologists to the theory that Nefertiti became Smenkhkare,64 and questions remain.
Posts: 42935 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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The goddess NUT — whose name is spelled with the "NU" glyph — was not exclusively female in gender. There are depictions of "her" as the male god Osiris — often with an erect penis, as in the papyrus depicted here. Below NUT in this scene is NUT's consort, the Earth god GEB, engaged in freaky behavior kissing his own penis.
Posts: 42935 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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1. Allowing a stick up your azz IS self-brutlization 2. Did you copy and paste this from the gay hand-book 3. When my 4 year old nephew come home from school and ask his father if a boy can marry another boy. Yes, it can be taught. 4. It is not hate, there is disgust and worry such an insane behavour is allowed to spread and accepted as being natural 5. Is there a translation of those Glyphs about NUT? After past experiences, I don’t believe anything that comes out of the mouth of most Europeans.
Quote by Lioness
First determine if these continentals have studied the whole huge continent of Africa, many thousands of different ethnic groups
and then determine if if these continentals are biased religious adhernents to the Bible or Qur'an rather than adherants to Traditional African Religion
People have a superstition level paranoia about homosexuals becuase the homosexuals are tired of being harassed and brutalized. Their voice therefore is louder now. However there is nothing to worry about because homosexuality can't be taught.
It is by and large a natural inclination that occurs in only about 4% of human beings. This should not worry the heterosexuals. Only people worried about their own sexuality, who are worried if tempting thoughts might pop into their minds, these are the people who are worried, people who are on the edge. They are the ones who hate the mostPosts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] 1. Allowing a stick up your azz IS self-brutlization 2. Did you copy and paste this from the gay hand-book 3. When my 4 year old nephew come home from school and ask his father if a boy can marry another boy. Yes, it can be taught. 4. It is not hate, there is disgust and worry such an insane behavour is allowed to spread and accepted as being natural
What you are not understanding is that because a law could be in place allowing a woman to marry another woman or a man to marry another man that has nothing to do with the natural inclination for about 4% of the human population to be gay.
So you can teach a person that being gay is permitted but that is not going to make them feel gay.
They will either be born with a natural attraction to the same sex or they will not. So that is the given, how society chooses to deal with it is after the fact
People don't make an intellectual descision to be gay even though they might be exposed to gay information being gay is about the sexual attraction that a person is born with.
Likewise with heterosexual teenagers, they don't have to be taught to be sexually attracted to another person, this is something that happens naturally around puberty
Posts: 42935 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Why do people get so worked up about this? You are not going to be in a genetically diverse location such as Africa and not have some aberrations every now and then. That being said, it probably isn't something you want to be encouraging people to do whether it is natural or not. Hebrew Israelite attempts to damn AE by claiming that there were homosexuals among the populace should be dismissed as they do not seek to prove anything beyond that. I saw parts of the debate, some fool from GOCC was screaming about children wrestling naked, despite the fact that this is Africa and most of the cultures at the time didn't see the need for clothes. It's not their fault if western cultures sexualize every activity done in the nude past or present.
If anyone is going to have an argument about homosexuality in Africa past or present, they should keep it scientific and cultural rather than taking the moral route as the Hebrews are trying to do. I have yet to see anyone produce any absolute biological proof of homosexual orientation, so i would consider all exhibitions of it practices rather than biology. The Hebrews (Who's arguments are shakier than a building in Japan) are a joke, arguing against a culture far older than their own (a fact that damages their argument severely), that is why they have to resort to useless tit-for tat like this.
The point is not to have an 'if the did it, it must be OK' attitude towards it. There are a good number of things the AE did that were crazy and dumb just like any other culture (Although not as crazy or as dumb).
Oh btw this is my first post here ever. I couldn't find an introduce yourself topic sooo...yeah.
Posts: 1 | From: Somewhere,Somewhere | Registered: Aug 2014
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quote:About 4% of Human beings are naturally gay. The same is the case in Africa.
Wrong maybe among europeans and west asians, but when it comes to africans that percentage goes down to about 0.5%,highest peak maybe 1%.
quote:Certain forms of homosexuality are traditional in Africa but are kept at a relatively low profile aacording to this percentage .
Yes maybe aphrodites,men with female genitals or effeminate males or females with musculine traits(tomboys).Traditionally africans have reacted to such occurances differently depending on tribe to tribe.in some tribes such infants were killed at birth,like albinos were killed at birth in some african societies.others concidered such occurence to be spiritual.if a female,maybe a male spirit has possessed them,if a male,maybe a female spirit has possesed them,others considered such a bad omen.But these instances are very rare in africa.
quote:The backlash against gays in Africa has a lot to do with the fact that largely that the Northern half of Africa was converted to Islam and the Southern half to Christianity, both foreign religions. Both are book based religions that do not acknowledge traditional African tribal beliefs despite Anglican priest Johm Mbiti's attempts to cite similarities in Christianity to some African beliefs.
WRONG;The backlash against gays in africa has alot to do with traditonal beliefs and values.If you have read John mbiti's book,you would have understood that the reason africans quickly embraced christianity and islam is because these two religions share very similar beliefs and values with traditional african religions. Your argument lioness is baseless because here traditional beliefs,superstitions and values matter alot,even today africans both urban and rural observe their traditional customs alongside christianity and islam.The key word here is TOLERANCE;For example, 1)Europeans today are more tolerant to homosexuality and bestiality,despite the fact that many europeans are of the christian faith,there are even white christian churches with gay bishops and gay pastors,WHY, Because white european culture was traditionally tolerant to such perverse un-natural habits and considered fags as normal e.g even ancient greek gods were homosexuals. 2)Black africans today are more tolerant to polygamy,despite the fact that many africans more than half of africans are of the christian faith.in africa there are many christians who are also polygamists(have two or more wives),WHY, Because black african culture was tradionally tolerant to polygamy and considered polygamy as normal. It is easy to know that africans were traditionally intolerant towards homosexuality,because even those black africans of diaspora,taken to the americas as slaves are even today generally intolerant towards homosexuality and bestiality.for example,blacks in haiti do not condone homosexuality,blacks in brazil,afro-brazilians,afro-colombians,afro-cubans,jamaicans and blacks of the caribian islands,trinidadians,granadians e.t.c NOTE;most of these blacks still practice their traditional african religions e.g vodoo,which they brought with them from africa.Even U.S blacks hate fags,and consider the practise un-black..if i am not wrong.
quote:Drawing on anthropological studies of the pre-colonial and colonial eras, it is possible to document a vast array of same-sex practises and diverse understandings of gender across the entire continent. Examples include: In the late 1640s, a Dutch military attaché documented Nzinga, a warrior woman in the Ndongo kingdom of the Mbundu, who ruled as ‘‘king” rather than ‘‘queen”, dressed as a man and surrounded herself with a harem of young men who dressed as women and who were her ‘‘wives”. Eighteenth century anthropologist, Father J-B. Labat, documented the Ganga-Ya-Chibanda, presiding priest of the Giagues, a group within the Congo kingdom, who routinely cross-dressed and was referred to as ‘‘grandmother”. In traditional, monarchical Zande culture, anthropological records described homosexuality as ‘‘indigenous”. The Azande of the Northern Congo ‘‘routinely married” younger men who functioned as temporary wives – a practise that was institutionalised to such an extent that warriors would pay ‘‘brideprice” to the young man”s parents. Amongst Bantu-speaking Pouhain farmers (Bene, Bulu, Fang, Jaunde, Mokuk, Mwele, Ntum and Pangwe) in present-day Gabon and Cameroon, homosexual intercourse was known as bian nkû”ma– a medicine for wealth which was transmitted through sexual activity between men. Similarly in Uganda, amongst the Nilotico Lango, men who assumed ‘‘alternative gender status” were known as mukodo dako. They were treated as women and were permitted to marry other men. In the former Kingdom of Dahomey, women could be soldiers (above) and older women would sometimes marry younger women, according to anthropologist Melville Herkovits. Same-sex relationships were reported amongst other groups in Uganda, including the Bahima, … the Banyoro and … the Baganda. King Mwanga II, the Baganda monarch, was widely reported to have engaged in sexual relations with his male subjects. A Jesuit working in Southern Africa in 1606 described finding ‘‘Chibadi, which are Men attired like Women, and behave themselves womanly, ashamed to be called men”. In the early 17th century in present-day Angola, Portuguese priests Gaspar Azevereduc and Antonius Sequerius encountered men who spoke, sat and dressed like women, and who entered into marriage with men. Such marriages were ‘‘honored and even prized”. In the Iteso communities, based in northwest Kenya and Uganda, same-sex relations existed amongst men who behaved as and were socially accepted as women. Same-sex practises were also recorded among the Banyoro and … the Langi. In pre-colonial Benin, homosexuality was seen as a phase that boys passed through and grew out of. There were practises of female-female marriages amongst the Nandi and … Kisii of Kenya, as well as … the Igbo of Nigeria, the Nuer of Sudan and the Kuria of Tanzania. Among Cape Bantu, lesbianism was ascribed to women who were in the process of becoming chief diviners, known as isanuses. This is by no means an exhaustive list. Numerous reports also indicate that in the highly sex-segregated societies of Africa, homosexual behaviour and relationships were not uncommon among peers, both male and female, especially in the years before heterosexual marriage. These kinds of relations were identified with specific terms and were to varying degrees institutionalized.
All these is bulshit lioness,who wrote these?a black african fag?I assure you lioness,if you interview the elders from these tribes,they will tell you most of these claims are not true.There was a documentary here in kenya debunking these claims,i will post you the link later.
quote:In the late 1640s, a Dutch military attaché documented Nzinga, a warrior woman in the Ndongo kingdom of the Mbundu, who ruled as ‘‘king” rather than ‘‘queen”, dressed as a man and surrounded herself with a harem of young men who dressed as women and who were her ‘‘wives”. Eighteenth century anthropologist, Father J-B. Labat, documented the Ganga-Ya-Chibanda, presiding priest of the Giagues, a group within the Congo kingdom, who routinely cross-dressed and was referred to as ‘‘grandmother”.
Are you confusing aphrodites(males with female genitals)with fags?
quote:Same-sex relationships were reported amongst other groups in Uganda, including the Bahima, …
quote: King Mwanga II, the Baganda monarch, was widely reported to have engaged in sexual relations with his male subjects.
Somehow i knew you would bring that up,that is why i wrote this;
quote:I am a kenyan,i live in the greatlakes region,none of the tribes here condoned such habits.and dont bring that kabaka mukasa ****,yes.he got away with it,because he was KING.
I meant kabaka mwanga.
quote:There were practises of female-female marriages amongst the Nandi and … Kisii of Kenya, as well as … the Igbo of Nigeria, the Nuer of Sudan and the Kuria of Tanzania. Among Cape Bantu, lesbianism was ascribed to women who were in the process of becoming chief diviners, known as isanuses.
fool that was not lesbianism..that practice is widespread in africa.when a woman cannot give birth to chidren or has passed her chid bearing age,she is allowed to marry another woman who will give birth on her behalf.this custom was adopted by jews.(sarah and hagar).sarah gave hagar to her husband abraham to give birth on her behalf,which resulted in the birth of Ishmael.
quote:What the colonisers imposed on Africa was not homosexuality “but rather intolerance of it — and systems of surveillance and regulation for suppressing it.”
Nah,africans were already intolerant to homos,even before whitey came.
Posts: 306 | From: Kenya | Registered: Dec 2013
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posted
People attempting to deny any homosexuality in Africa engage in a dubious exercise, that seems like a bogus strawman setup on the web for others to conveniently "refute." The claim is simply is not credible. Of course there were homosexuals- there are homosexuals on eveRy continent. No thinking person goes around "denying" such an obvious fact. The key point is not whether there are homosexuals (yes there are), but whether the culture valorizes and puts homosexuality as among its highest ideals, and pushing or accepting it as on an equal footing with normal male-female relations. That is the key question.
Homosexual practice appears in every part of the world, but European "role models" seem to have taken it to an extreme level- institutionalizing it, valorizing it as among the highest cultural ideals, and putting it on a part with fundamental building blocks of human society like male-female marriage. The 5 tests below indicate that European "role models" have moved to another level
1) Whether homosexuality was institutionalized as an important part of the society's functioning- i.e. like the homosexual pairs of the Theban Sacred band, or backdoor practices of Spartan military training.
2) Whether homosexuality was instutionalized based on pederasty as clearly documented for ancient Greece,
3) Whether homosexual activity appeared frequently as normal among the society's major deities as for example with Zeus and Apollo among the Greeks.
4) Whether homosexuality was associated with the society's highest ideas, philosophy and nobility, as among the Greeks and as documented in the writings of Plato.
5) Whether homosexuality has spawned a mass movement or significant advocacy by influential national leaders, religious figures and celebrities to put it on a par with heterosexuality, including redefining the society's fundamental institution for the procreation and rearing of children. This is so in large parts of the West, from Sweden, to France, to Britain, to the United States.
These 5 tests are the crucial ones, not whether there was male/male` or female/female sexual activity somewhere in a continent with tens of millions of people and thousands of different tribes. Saying it never existed in the face of these odds is a waste of time, and a losing hand.
DATA ON SOME EUROPEANS SHOW THAT lIONIZED AND INSTITUTIONALIZED HOMOSEXUAL PEDERASTY AS PART OF THEIR HIGHEST CULTURES, NOT MERELY TOLERATED IT. MOLESTATION OF CHILDREN WAS PART OF THE HIGH CULTURAL IDEAL..
1-- The Greeks institutionalized homosexual practices more, as opposed to mere tolerance of outliers. For example, the mighty Spartans institutionalized it as an integral part of their military training. Along long with the Spartans the famous 'Sacred Band" of Thebes was made of up 300 men joined in homosexual pairs- sleeping together and fighting together.
As regards the Spartans and others:
"..young boys between the ages of 6 and 16 were organized in 'packs' and 'herds' and placed under the supervision of young adult Spartans. This supervision was sometimes seen as surrogate fathering and one marker of its activity ".. was the institution of institutionalized pederasty. After the age of twelve, each Spartan teenager was expected to receive a young adult warrior as his lover."
--From: The Spartans: the world of the warrior-heroes of ancient Greece, from utopia to crisis and collapse Paul Cartledge, 2003.pg 69-70
1A-- The Greek institutionalization of homosexual activity was heavily focused on pederasty:
In the "Politics of Spartan Pederasty" in Homosexuality in the ancient world, pg 23,
various documentation from the Spartan era ranges from rock-cut graffiti, to bronze figurines of decidedly masculine "girls", to depictions of anal copulation on drinking cups, to terracotta votive masks depicting unbearded 'Youth' and bearded adult 'Warriors' found in the sanctuary at Orthia. quote:
".. the evidence of Xenophon and Plutarch is sufficient to establish the important conclusion that pederasty in Sparta was institutionalised."
2-- The Greeks embraced homosexuality and it also appears frequently among their major gods, as part of the package, without any apparent moral censure. It was simply accepted that the major gods would get in their gay action.
For example, Mighty Poseidon took Pelops, the son of Tantalus, to Mt. Olympus as his paramour. Hermes, the Greek messenger and trickster often known as the “cunning deceiver was a lover of both men and women. Hermes had several sons including Pan, the horned satyr who loved both men and women (giving birth to the English word “pansexual”). Romans gave Hermes the name of Mercury, and both traditions considered him to have invented masturbation.
Apollo enjoyed male on male activity, tragically killing Hyacinth, his beloved male lad, in a discus-throwing accident.
Mighty Zeus was no shirker at the rear, as his relationship with human male Ganymede reveals. Ever generous, Zeus gave Ganymede’s father a golden grapevine and/or a pair of horses in exchange for raping his son.
Greek deity Zeus was no shirker at hindquarters. Here he kidnaps and prepares to sodomize the youth Ganymede ...
3-- The Greeks seem to have embraced homosexual activity widely although with certain qualifications, such as disapproval of male prostitutes outside certain areas, etc etc.
FROM: Homosexuality in the ancient world - Page 80. Wayne R. Dynes, Stephen Donaldson - 1992 -
"One of the intriguing features of the Greeks is their active interest in homosexuality... Yet the adherents of this solution [a ritual of initiation] have not attempted an explanation pf this puzzling phenomenon and they have ignored the existence of Indo-European (henceforth: I-E) parallels." pg 49
pg 50: "The bachelors had recourse to sodomy, a practice which was not reprobated but was actually a custom of the country- and a custom in the true sense, i.e., fully sanctioned by male society and universally practised."
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According to researchers Blumfield and Raymond who have written several books on homosexuality, the Greeks embraced the practice in many aspects of life, including in their militaries: --(Looking at gay and lesbian life, 1988, by Blumenfeld and Raymond: pg 153-179) QUOTE:
"It was not unusual for men to comment on the attractiveness of other men, or for them to express affection for one another. At least part of the reason for this fascination with physical attractiveness and sex is that the Greeks had developed into a culture that had a great deal of leisure time. They were not required to work constantly in order to survive. Blumenfeld and Raymond wrote: “Similarly, the Greek attitude toward sex was, for the most part, value-neutral. …And, though exclusive homosexuality was probably discouraged as a threat to the family, it was widely tolerated both for older men who had children and for younger men prior to marriage.” (Blumenfeld and Raymond 1988, 155)
The Greek military attitude toward homosexuality was that it brought a sense of comradeship. It was often believed that a person would fight harder to protect his unit if that unit included a lover or lovers. This unique form of male bonding is attributed by some to the greatness of the Greek military might. In spite of this encouragement of homosexual practices, the picture is different for those who were exclusively passive at anal sex. They were believed to be polluted, and to have become like women. Therefore, they were expelled from military service as untrustworthy.
Greek society only negatively defined homosexual activity when it was exclusive or related to prostitution by a citizen. In nearly every other instance, homosexual conduct was considered acceptable and practical. It was simply a way of enjoying the beauty and awesomeness of the male bodies that they revered so highly.
The attitude toward the family and education could have also played a role in the attitude toward homosexuality. The family was considered the basis for reproduction. Women were restricted in their sexual activity because they were needed in order to bear children. Men could have sex with either women or men, so long as they met their societal obligation to reproduce. This is probably why exclusive anal sex was prohibited. Catamites could not bear children for their partners.
Education was the responsibility of the teachers and philosophers. Girls were excluded from the education system that was designed to teach boys how to be men. The student was expected to respect and admire his teacher. The teacher was expected to gain the devotion and affection of his student. Therefore, homosexual conduct between a teacher and student was considered a valuable part of the education process. The family, on the other hand, was simply needed for procreation.
During the republic period, Cicero declared without challenge that there is nothing illegal about a man taking another to the country in order to enjoy his erotic sensual pleasures. Although one could easily have sex with his wife at home, a man in the baths, a prostitute in the brothel, and a slave in a dark corner, he would have only been criticized if he were not able to keep everything in its place."
--(Looking at gay and lesbian life, 1988, by Blumenfeld and Raymond: pg 153-179) ------------------------------------------------------------------
The Romans carried out extensive homosexual practice although "official" bans existed. Most of the bans did not object to the practices per se, but were primarily concerned about SOCIAL STATUS, such as when citizens were engaged in passive roles while being sodomized. Such roles were considered to belong to slaves or foreigners. As long as citizens exploited others in a passive role, Romans relished hindquarters action, as did some popular Roman deities.
Romans ascribed heroic aspects to some homosexual relations between military personnel. Nisus and Euryalus are a recognized heroic pair, with Nisus being an older mature man, while Euryalus is a teenager, not even shaving yet. Virgil endorses the homosexual relationship as "honorable, dignified and connected to central Roman values." This is in keeping with the general pattern of status-based Roman morality - - the more distinguished citizen sodomizes a more passive object, in this case not a slave, or foreigner but a youth. As long as status is maintained, many Romans found such pedarastic activity acceptable..
Roman rulers engaged in well known homosexual hookups
The well known homosexual relationship between the Emperor Hadrian and his lover Antinuous is famous, and upon the accidental death of the boy, the emperor had him deified. The cult of Antinous subsequently became the most popular of all cults in the Greek-speaking world. Some Roman writers also note the activities of the emperor Tiberius with very young boys, and the activities of such rulers as Commodus who rewarded his male lover with both money and priestly office. Court cases are documented involving forcible male on male rape and complaints about wild bachannalia where young men are exploited appear several times in Roman literature.
According to one scholar, the Romans were not unduly disturbed at pederasty as compared with adultery which they regarded in a much more severe light. The god Roman Priapus was a popular figure that swung with both men and women.
SUMMARY FROM: --Roman homosexuality By Craig A. Williams, 1999
[quote]:
"the first in-depth modern study of homosexuality in republican and Augustan Rome, brilliantly examines relevant literary and legal texts. She concludes that Roman homosexuality was not imported from Greece, was legal, and that master-slave sexual relations were its most socially acceptable expression. Lilja shows that the republican dramatist Plautus, for example, associated homosexuality with slavery, rather than with romance between citizens."
In Rome the main objection to homosexuality seemed to be against passive roles as regards males. Generally, Roman homosexuality was more strongly connected with superior and inferior social roles, even as Hellenization and tolerance of homosexuality increased and [quote]
"for this reason, Roman homosexuality never achieved the cultural idealization accorded pederasty in ancient Greece." --(Reader's guide to lesbian and gay studies, 2000, By Timothy F. Murphy)
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As regards the eastern European Slavs, they were busy too: [quote}:
"Among Slavs, homosexuality attracted much less negative attention. When native Slavic codes mentioned homosexuality at all, they treated it as a sin no more serious - at worst- than adultery. Western European visitors to Russia in the sixteenth century commented derisively on the toleration of homosexual activity. In Slavic lands, unlike Western Europe, homosexuality remained an ecclesiastical offense, not subject to civil sanctions. Homosexual activity by women attracted little attention in canon law and was not heavily penalized.
In a similar way, the Slavs mitigated the harsh penalties of Byzantine canon law for another form of "unnatural" sex, bestiality.. The penalties in native Slavic codes placed bestiality among simple fornication, uncanonical divorce and martial sex after mass." --(Handbook of medieval sexuality By Vern L. Bullough) pg 340, 1996)
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Northern Europeans show extensive homosexual activity stretching back to ancient times as scholars note. QUOTE:
"The fourth-century A.D. Roman writer Ammianus Marcellinus described homosexual relationships between youth and adult warriors among the Taifali, a Germanic tribe related to the Goths.. Marcellinus became familiar with the Taifali when he was posted as a soldier in the region. Their youth, Marcellinus write, remained in these homosexual relationships until they became adults and had killed a boar or bear, a typical initiatory ordeal. Similar homosexual customs were described by the Roman historian Procopius in the sixth century A.D. among another German tribe, the Heruli.. homosexuality in the form of institutionalized pederasty of the sort described by Ammianis Marcellinus and Procopius is understood to have been the rule within the Germanic warrior societies.
Remarkably similar societies of unmarried warriors existed in Norse and Celtic society. The members of the Norse warrior societies also dedicated themselves to their god, Odin, dressed likewise in skins of wolves or bears and were said to fight with the furor f one possessed of the spirits of those animals.. Like the Germanic peoples, Celtic society was ruled by a warrior aristocracy supported by a farming peasantry.. While references by classical writers to homosexual relationship between Celtic warriors and youth are not detailed enough to be able to establish an initiatory construct, the pederastic relations that they described would almost certainly have occurred within the fianna, the principal social venue of the Celtic warriors. Indeed, given the close similarity of Celtic and Germanic tribal customs, and the well documented esteem of the Celts for male homosexuality, it would have been odd if the Celts did not practice a similar type of initiatory homosexuality.
The ancient writers leave no doubt as to the Celtic warriors; enthusiasm for homosexuality in general. According to Aristotle, the Celts held homosexuality in high esteem and publicly honored homosexual relations. Diodorus writes that despite the charm of Celtic women, the Celtic men: "long instead for the embrace of one of their own sex, lying on animal skins and tumbling around with a lover on either side. It is particularly surprising that they attach no value to either dignity or decency, offering their bodies to each other without further ado. This was not regarded as at all harmful: on the contrary, if they were rejected in their approaches, they felt insulted." Celtic youth evidently shared the attitudes of their elders. The Greek writer Strabo, described the young Celts of Gaul as "shamelessly generous with their boyish charms."
"..The lack if sexual inhibitions that the Celtic warriors displayed towards each other amid such an atmosphere of masculine eroticism suggests that homosexuality was not limited to pederastic relations, and that love between comrades was also a part of Celtic warrior life. In fact, it is warriors, not youth, whom Diodorus describes as "offering their bodies to each other without further ado." Such a relationship between warrior peers even appears in an Irish Celtic saga of the late first millennium." [ENDQUOTE] --Neill, James (2009). The origins and role of same-sex relations in human societies. Mcfarland: pp 120-131
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MORE ON THE GREEKS In ancient Greece homosexuality played an important role.
In ancient Greece homosexuality played an important role, as it did among other Indo-Europeans . QUOTE: "While little is known of the sexual practices of the Kassites, Hyksos or Aryans, that is not the case with the Greeks. The extent of the prevalence and social importance of homosexual behavior among the ancient Greeks is so thoroughly documented that it is possible to get a clear picture not only of the character of homosexual relationships in Greeks society, but the important role homosexuality played in that society.. the fragmentary glimpses we have of homosexual behavior among the other Indo-European peoples can be recognized as revealing a unified pattern of sexual customs and beliefs that seems to have prevailed among all the Indo-European ancestors of modern Europeans." --Neill, James (2009). The origins and role of same-sex relations in human societies. Mcfarland:
Pedophilia and homosexuality was common among the Spartans. Wives and male lovers were shared between Spartan men. Pederasty or use of youth for homosexual purposes was well established among the Spartans, Greeks and Cretans.
[quotes from various scholars:] "..young boys between the ages of 6 and 16 were organized in 'packs' and 'herds' and placed under the supervision of young adult Spartans. This supervision was sometimes seen as surrogate fathering and one marker of its activity ".. was the instutionalization of pederasty. After the age of twelve, each Spartan teenager was expected to receive a young adult warrior as his lover.. Punishment for various infractions such as suffering silently under discipline was sometimes made on the youth's older lover, for having failed to educate his beloved properly." --From: The Spartans: the world of the warrior-heroes of ancient Greece, from utopia to crisis and collapse Paul Cartledge, Overlook Press, 2003.pg 69-70
"Aspects of Spartan society conduced less to heterosexuality than to homosexuality. In his Laws, Plato wrote that homosexuality resulted from the (male) dining groups and from male nudity in gymnasia. Records of Sparta from the classical period seem to refer to homosexual boyfriends at least as often as to wives. particularly revealing, are some assertions by Xenophon on this subject." --From: Sparta By Michael Whitby. 2002. Taylor and Francis: p. 93
"Sparta too institutionalized homosexual relations between mature men and adolescent boys, as well as between adult women and girls.. many aspects of Spartan homosexuality and marriage customs point to tribal origins. Participation was mandatory for all youth of good character. There were ordeals- a common feature of tribal initiation.. Even after marriage, men lived in men's houses, not with their wives. Wives and male lovers were shared with age-mates." ---From: The construction of homosexuality. David F. Greenberg. University of Chicago Press. 1990. p.107 --------------------------
Both homosexuality and pedophilia were institutionalized among the Greeks per scholars: [quotes from various scholars:] FROM: Homosexuality in the ancient world - Page 80. Wayne R. Dynes, Stephen Donaldson - 1992 -
quotes from Dynes and Donaldson: "In short, I have no doubt that the evidence of Xenophon and Plutarch is sufficient to establish the important conclusion that pederasty in Sparta was institutionalised." In the "Politics of Spartan Pederasty" in Homosexuality in the ancient world, pg 23, various documentation from the Spartan era ranges from rock-cut graffiti, to bronze figurines of decidedly masculine "girls", to depictions of anal copulation on drinking cups, to terracotta votive masks depicting unbearded 'Youth' and bearded adult 'Warriors' found in the sanctuary at Orthia.".
Some historian argue that Greek homosexual activity had ritual significance in the form of the semen, being an agent representing martial excellence or prowess, imparted to the receiving male in the process of sodomy. The venue of the gymnasium also played a part. quotes from Dynes and Donaldson: "Next there is the point insisted upon by Plato's Athenian Laws (1.636b; cg. Theaer. 162b, 169ab), the role played by the gymnasia as hotbeds of homosexuality. The Spartans put a premium on gymnastic exercise, and if Thucydides (1.6.5) is to be believed, it was they who invented the customs of exercising stark naked and rubbing down with olive oil. In Sparta therefore the cult of the nude male body is likely to have been pushed to the extremes, as it is known to have been in other less gymnastic Greek cities.. None of these conditions favoring homosexuality is wholly peculiar to Spartan society, but their presence in combination suggests that the integration of institutionalised pederasty into the Agoge, whenever precisely it occurred, will at any rate, not have been awkward." pg 27
Yet others argue that the ties created by pederasty extended to the networks of influence and governance. "Pederasty, in other words, could have acted at Spartan in the age of Xenophon, as it certainly did in fourth-century Crete, as a means of recruiting the political elite," ---------------
Young females were also used in Spartan society as part of homosexual relations. Quote: "Plutarch relates that in Sparta, the noble women loved the girls. Also the academic philosopher Hagnon states: "Among the Spartans it was customary (viz for adult women) to have intercourse with girls before their marriage, as one did with boys." pg 292
Homosexuality was commonly recognized and accepted in Greece, and suggest a common pattern among Indo-European peoples. As one historian notes: "One of the intriguing features of the Greeks is their active interest in homosexuality... Yet the adherents of this solution [a ritual of initiation] have not attempted an explanation pf this puzzling phenomenon and they have ignored the existence of Indo-European (henceforth: I-E) parallels." pg 49
pg 50: "The bachelors had recourse to sodomy, a practice which was not reprobated but was actually a custom of the country- and a custom in the true sense, i.e., fully sanctioned by male society and universally practised."
Some ancient Greek scholars held that the Persians learned homosexuality from the Greeks ".. we pass straight on to the Persians. Our sources are divided as to whether they practiced pederasty or not. The latter view will be the more probably one, since the Zoroastrian writings tome and again strongly forbade pederasty. It is perhaps indicative for this attitude that Agesilaos, although strongly in love with the son of high-ranking Persian, refrains from any physical contact. On the other hand, the son of Pharnabazus is enamoured of a Greek boy, and the recurrence of the prohibitions of pederasty suggests that the Persians did not succeed in stopping the practice. Such discrepancy between theory and practice could elucidate the remark of Herodotus that the Persians learned pederasty from the Greeks." pg 282
Quotes from: Homosexuality in the ancient world - Page 80. Wayne R. Dynes, Stephen Donaldson-1992 -
Historian Charles Freeman's "The Greek Achievement" (1999) holds that homosexuality had an influential place in some Greek institutions. According to Freeman: [quote] ".. "The symposia provided the arena for much of this sexual activity. These were highly ritualized affairs whose origins lay in the banqueting halls of aristocratic warriors. The men were garlanded and reclined one or two to a couch around a central table.. there is little evidence that symposia were normally used to discuss politics. Rather the opposite; the longest conversation in Plato's Symposium is about the nature of homosexual love." (Freeman: pg 299, pg 283-304)
Other writers find similar prominence in Athens: "Male homosexuality was also a prominent feature of Classical Athens. It was widely practiced and tolerated. Athenian law disenfranchised a citizen who had prostituted his body to another male, but nothing was done to males who engaged in homosexual love with male prostitutes or other adult males for love or pleasure. The law did not eliminate male prostitution but ensured that male prostitutes would be foreigners, not Athenian citizens." -- Western Civilization: To 1500, Volume 1. Jackson J. Spielvogel. 2009. Cenage.
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More info on European "role models"..
FROM: Charles Freeman (2000) The Greek Achievement. Penguin ed. pg 111, 298-300 {QUOTES}
Prevalence of pederasty in Greece
"In general terms the [Greek] evidence suggests that when men are deprived of women by a late age of marriage, as they were in Athens, they formed liaisons with younger boys (a study of Renaissance Florence where a similar age gap existed found that homosexuality was more prevalent there than in Italian city states where the ages of couples on marriage were equal. In this sense, young boys acted as a substitute for women."
The famous Greek symposium was a locale for pederastic sex. History records that some Greek parents were disturbed by homosexual activity in the symposium involving their young male children
{QUOTES}
"Young boys would attend symposia as part of their initiation into society and the symposium could act as the setting for pederastic sex."
"there was always the fear that his manhood would be compromised by the encounter and some families employed a tutor to watch over their sons to keep them clear of pederastic sex."
Pg 111 "However, as Kenneth Dover has pointed out it is just at this time, the late seventh century, that overt homosexuality between men became an accepted part of Greek social life… ' A Greek who said 'I am in love' would not mind being asked 'with a boy'..
Homosexual initiation was common in Greek societies as seen in the practices of Crete and Sparta. Young boys were taken from home and used in homosexual activity with older men as part of the culture. In Sparta, homosexual practice was also reflected by wives dressing as young boys on their wedding night. {QUOTE}
"Such an initiation ceremony is recorded by the greographer Strabo (first century B.C.) in Crete where young boys were kidnapped, taken to a remote part of the country, and then kept there for two months. They were taught hunting, feasting and military skills with the context of some form of sexual relationship. IN other words, homosexual initiation was pat of the transition from youth to adulthood. In the messes of Sparta, homosexual activity was normal, while the warriors of fourth century Thebes, at one moment the best in Greece, were said to owe their cohesion to paired homosexual bonding. In Sparta, it was ritualized by a new wife dressing as a boy for her wedding night, and then as a woman thereafter."
SOme try to avoid the homosexual activitiesof the Greeks by claiming that there was a "death penalty" for homosexuality in some Greek polities. But this is bogus. Homosexuality itself did not merit one worthy of death- to the contrary. Death was a penalty for forcible kidnapping and homosexual rape, or certain hiring out for homosexual activity and civic participation as a community member- such as a father hiring out his son as a homosexual prostitute, but as shown by the scholars above, the"symposium" man-boy format was considered consensual among the Greeks, not a forcible rape, or a forced prostitution scenario. In fact one of the same scholars addresses the death penalty saying:
"It was not the case that the law prescribed the death penalty for a male prostitute and for his client." Consensual activity was thus generally protected. Even in the cases of penalty, the execution of the actual sentence was in no way guaranteed, and it was layered with multiple provisions and qualifications.
Yet another scholar takes up the so-called "penalty" - noting the sense is vague in the Greek texts: QUOTE:"This is usually taken as an euphemism for the death penalty. But it is unlikely that the law carried any penalty beyond disenfranchisement." --T. Hubbard, Homosexuality in Greece and Rome, p 134
The clear fact is that multiple credible scholars who have studied the subject note that homosexuality was not only accepted but embraced as a high cultural ideal in the white Greek world. Noneof these scholars ever claim that it met with 100% approval of the populace. It didn't. Some opposition was based on status- the free citizen as passive participant, not on the action itself. The opposition is documented by the researchers above but so is the cultural appeal and lionization.
Different Greeks also had different standards. The Spartans for example had no "death penalty" just for homosexual activity. To the contrary they incorporated such practices directly into their military culture. Participation was mandatory for all youths of good character.
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Indo-European tribal culture may have fostered homosexual practices from early times
"Even in the absence of cross-cousin marriage, relationships between a mother's brother and his sister's son were exceptionally affectionate - unlike father-son relationships, which tended to be cold and formal. Foster parentage was a common institution among the Indo-European peoples, and in many instances the foster father was a mother's brother. In ancient Iran, the mother's brother was called "upbringer" or "foster father." Vedic texts suggest that this was also true for the Indo-Aryans. Scattered evidence suggests that among the ancient Hittites, Greeks, Romans, Celts and Germans, mother's brothers were often foster parents. Under these circumstances, it would be natural for the foster parent to supervise initiation, and perhaps to ritually sodomize his ward, without supplying his own daughter as a wife."
"Archaeological evidence shows that c. 500BC, when they were founding the La Tene culture in France and the northern part of Switzerland.. the Celts esteemed homosexuality... Evidence that the Celtic love of warriors may have extended to the British Isles (which the Celts invaded c 200BC) can be found in the Irish saga Tain Bo Cuailnge.. The hero Cuchulain explains [as to his foster brother]
Fast friends, forest companions We made one bed and slept one sleep.."
Greek and Roman practice allowed male homosexual prostitutes, levied taxes on them, and the Romans even give them a special legal holiday- April 24
QUOTE: "Although the Athenians stigmatized prostitutes, they did not deprive them of all legal rights; according to Aiskhines,, prostitutes could go to court to collect from nonpaying customers. Patronizing prostitutes was considered perfectly acceptable, not shameful or illegal. Each year, the Athenian Council conformed a special tax on male prostitutes, suggesting that they were numerous enough to warrant attention as a source of revenue.
By all accounts, prostitutions flourished in Rome after the Second Punic War (218-201 BC), when wealth poured into into the city.. Brothels opened not only in Rome but also in large and medium sized towns throughout Italy. A reference in a public speech of the elder Cato to the high price of male prostitutes makes clear that only the affluent could indulge. Most male prostitutes were slaves owned by a procurer; however some prostitutes were freedmen or even free. Under Augustus the government began taxing male prostitutes, a nd also granted them a legal holiday- April 24. By the early empire, distinct active (exoleti) and passive (cinaedi) homosexual prostitutes were serving specialized client tastes.
Wealthy men had another homosexual outlet as well: their slaves. Although Athenian law barred salves from entering gymnasia (where many pederastic affairs were initiated), or from having affairs with free men, they were at the disposal of their owners.. in practice slaves who had been raped had few remedies. Roman slave owners could also use them for sexual purposes with impunity, and some kept sizable make harems."
--David Greenberg. 1990. The Construction of Homosexuality. p. 98-126 By David F. Greenberg
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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I am sorry you african americans live in a eurocentric society,and this bulshit was successfully pushed down your throats by homo-whitey lobby groups BUT NOT US(black africans).
Again, Lioness is not black. He is a white male pretending to be a black female.
Posts: 342 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
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^^^ This is off topic. The topic is how is homosexuality practiced in Egyptian society and traditional African society not what the Europeans did. If the topic makes you uncomfortable don't click on the topic
Posts: 42935 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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In the story of Hyacinth and Apollo a gay love triangle was told by the Greeks between the god Apollo, the youth Hyacinth and the wind god Zephyrus. In one version, jealous that the youth preferred homosexual action with Apollo, Zephrus blew a discus off course, striking and killing the wayward youth.
Some European homosexual marriage advocates argue that such homosexual unions were already in place among the Greek and Romans.
The Roman emperor Nero for example set up a number of homosexual marriages once as a bride with a wine steward named Pythagoras, and once as a groom with a castrated actor called Sporus. Nero caused the youth of the freedmen, whom he used to call Sporus, to be castrated, since he, too, resembled Sabina [his former wife], and he used him in every way like a wife. In due time, though already married to Pythagoras, a freedman, he formally married Sporus, and assigned the boy a regular dowry according to contract; and the Romans as well as others publicly celebrated their wedding. According to Tacitus, "He castrated the boy Sporus and actually tried to make a woman of him ; and he married him with all the usual ceremonies, including a dowry and a bridal veil, took him to his house attended by a great throng, and treated him as his wife.."
Nero also sexually abused his step-brother Britannicus. After Nero died, Sporus took up a homosexual relationship with another Roman emperor, Otho.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: .
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^^^ This is off topic. The topic is how is homosexuality practiced in Egyptian society and traditional African society not what the Europeans did.
Ar least other posters can debate some of the details pertaining to African culture. But you can't handle it, you are so uncomfortable with this you have to change to a different continent and people
You must have issues with this on a personal level
Posts: 42935 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by kdolo: What about pedophilia and bestiality??
Whites seems to have a longstanding interest in these behavors....
Most likely these patterns apply all over. The use of animals in human sexual activity is well attested to in ancient Greece and Rome. Several research studies offer details. The Greek gods for example frequently took on animal form and then had sexual relations with humans. Greek god Zephyrus for example appeared in swan form as part of his plan to sodomize Greek youth Hyacinthus, who was a homosexual favorite of the god Apollo. Ancient Europe sows some activity. Studies of Iron Age Italy and Bronze Age Sweden show sexual contact between men and animals (Gregersen 1983; Deckers 1994; Liliequist 1988' Miletski 2002). Ancient engravings from France show animals licking human genitals, and cave paintings from the same country show men penetrating donkeys (Gregersen 1983, Taylor 1996).
Religious and cultic rites in ancient Greece show frequent animal-human sexual contact. Male goats were used for copulation in Greece as part of the worship rites for the god Mendes who was symbolized by these animals. Sexual acts with snakes were performed by priestesses in worship of the god Aseculapius, and the God Bacchus (Dionysus). Art from ancient Greece shows many accounts of sexual contacts with animals and such bestial contact is a main theme n Greek mythology. Well known examples are the story of Zeus and Leda and Zeus and Europa. Ancient Greece Bestiality themes were very popular in Greek mythology (Kinsey et al. 1953; Masters 1962; Masters 1966; Rosenfeld 1967; Bagley 1968; Harris 1969;) Greek myth tells of satyrs, creatures half man and half goat who were also a symbol of virility and lust (Deckers 1994).
The Romans were not far behind. In Ancient Rome some brothels were named according to the animals they offered for sexual purposes. According to Schmidt 1969, goats were provided in "caprarii," dogs in the "bellurii" and so on. Animals were also specifically trained for sexual interactions with women for the games at the Coliseum and Circus Maximus, namely raping women and men as a public spectacle and for public amusement (Dekkers 1994, Masters, 1962). Bestiality was also said to be widespread among shepherds (Masters 1962).
Among other Indo-Europeans views and practices varied. Among the Hittites for example, sex with a pig or dog was punished, but sex with a horse or mule was not. In modern Europe old prohibitions against human- animal sex have been loosened. The internet carries a whole genre of such contacts freely in many European countries. In Hungary for example magazines depicting such are openly traded. Some white European countries such as Germany have abolished their laws on bestiality. A new trend is emerging in some white countries, where bestiality is becoming more open and accepted. One example is the biography of Mark Matthews called "The Horseman" which tells of his life as a zooophile. The Internet has also spawned increasing interest and acceptance among many Europeans. Aside from numerous websites trading pictures, video and commentary, a growing genre of "furry" communities- in which white artists, cartoonists and writers depict, write about and even hold events centering around pretending to be animals and having sex is part of this general pattern in European countries. Studies of white male sex offenders indicate a 8.3% prevalence (Kinsey et al 1965) for the overall male population. Among white juvenile sexual offenders 7.4% claimed to have seen others engage in bestiality or have engaged in it themselves (Beetz 2012).
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
Just what in biology would make one group more pre- disposed to promiscuity than others? And from an objective view, who even cares about promiscuity you were never forced to watch against your will, other than superstitious primitives?
Either a "deviant" behaviour can be discouraged on medical, legal or other rational grounds or it can not. If not, and you're somehow emotionally invested or bothered by what eccentric people/ societies agree to do to get their jollies off, then that's just your superstitions, religious conditioning or hang-ups causing you to put your own brainwashing on display.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Zarahan you may want to revisit Mendes.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
I am just going by the what the reference mentioned. Break it down if you will Tukler. Would it be the case that the Greeks adapted the rites and took them in another direction entirely to fit local desires or fetishes? The ref seems to be for their version or "spin."
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Umm, maybe it'd be better if you check into it.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
When I get time I'll pull some more but the ref specifically says in Greece, indicating that it was their local Greek version or extreme in question.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
I am not sure what was said here or the point made. Primitives do not accept homosexuality?
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [About 4% of Human beings are naturally gay. The same is the case in Africa. There is also homosexuality in many animal species. Certain forms of homosexuality are traditional in .QB] Just what in biology would make one group more pre- disposed to promiscuity than others? And from an objective view, who even cares about promiscuity you were never forced to watch against your will, other than superstitious primitives?
Either a "deviant" behaviour can be discouraged on medical, legal or other rational grounds or it can not. If not, and you're somehow emotionally invested or bothered by what eccentric people/ societies agree to do to get their jollies off, then that's just your superstitions, religious conditioning or hang-ups causing you to put your own brainwashing on display. [/QB]
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
^When you allow your thinking on human behaviour to be hi-jacked by Bronze Age Abrahamic superstitions and conditioning to the point where you actively seek out and pontificate to people who agree to do things in their own bedroom that will never affect you, I think you're mentally a very stagnated and primitive person, yes.
If you're not one of those people, and I'm assuming most people here aren't, why would you be so invested in what goes in other people's bedrooms and sort societies on a spectrum of promiscuity? That is what I was asking.
It's an abuse of these statistics and sources to repurpose them for ethnic mud-slinging.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
So poking another man in the butt, getting shyte on your dick, is the new norm and what 21st century modernists way of fughking. Got you. What's the next stage? Poking a dog? 22nd century norm.....once you keep it "private"
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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That public rubbing-it-in-your-face stuff is another subject entirely, and not something particularly enjoy, either. But then again, I realize the world doesn't revolve around me and what I think.
@Xyyman I was put in this world--I didn't create it. I'm just not in denial that this appears to be part of human wiring.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
Being intolerant to outgroups something just crossed my mind.
To the gays on the forum
When you guys are done do you take s shower or just lay in bed with that foul smell cuddling with feces on your dick? How does that work? Just curious.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
You really insist on putting these images on peoples' retina, don't you? You have a romantic view of humanity that doesn't square with reality. Do you really think that is the most unsettling thing people do? You got grownups dressing up in diapers and people fantasizing about being covered in you know what. Then there are those who get turned on by cannibalism, necrophilia or contracting HIV ("bug chasing"). You can't rationalize what turns on the next person. These things simply exist. What are you gonna do, lose sleep over it? Go ISIS on people?
You read all this stuff about evolution, biology, etc. then turn the knowledge switch off and return to daily life with a romantic view of humans as if you haven't learned anything.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
For those who can look at scientific data with an inquisitive mind, without using it as ammunition or making it about them and what they think. Read and learn:
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Being intolerant to outgroups something just crossed my mind.
To the gays on the forum
When you guys are done do you take s shower or just lay in bed with that foul smell cuddling with feces on your dick? How does that work? Just curious.
I guess you never heard of condoms
also try going to a straight porn site and type in "anal" see if anything comes up
Posts: 42935 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Australian Business Advisor....nuff said.
try African Business Advisor..take it from there.
Actually, the results were from a Canadian research team, not an Australian one. The author of the link simply reports the findings. But if you want an "African business advisor" (whatever that means)...try Google Trends. It wasn't too long ago that search engine data was posted that exposes that North African countries, amongst other "Arab" countries, rank highest in all sorts of gay, animal and child sex search engine queries.
Time to own up to the fact that HUMANS, not some fringe elements in society, do all these sexual things that are either phuched up, eccentric, or both, depending on what behaviour you're talking about. If you have a pre-scientific revolution view of humanity, uncleanliness after sex should be the least of your worries.
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