827AD Moors begin invasion of Sicily and Rome - Courtesy geocites/College Park.

For some reason, distortion junkies like to just dive into 15th century, but not go into details on how it came about. There is a reason(s) for this...

For example, when this piece of information was posted:

I felt the danger of being a modern participant in the complex historical relationship between the southern Italian, whose land borders Africa and was dominated for centuries by dark-skinned Moors, and the black man. - Maria Laurino [italian]

...the predictable distortionist response was :

...while ignoring others like its comtemporaries like:

Thecloseup view.

Depictions of four Moorish Princes killed in battle with Aragonese forces.

"Pictured above is another such figure, the sorceress Circe of the Odyssey. Here she is seen offering a magic potion to Odysseus (Ulysses). The painting is displayed upon a Grecian vase dated back to the 5th century BC. Circe's niece was Medea, the sorceress responsible for helping Jason secure the legendary Golden Fleece. (Photo and Information courtesy of Blacks in Antiquity by Frank Snowden)"

"Procopius in the 6th Century, in comparing another North African racial group to the Moors, states that they were "not black-skinned like the Moors.

Pictured above is a veiled Berber Moibt Themin warrior; typical of the Almoravid types which dominated Spain in the 11th Century."

St. Maurice; an Egyptian.

"There is also mention of a "Nageir the More." In 1501 one of the King's Minstrels was Peter the Moryen or Moor who is described as Black. Frederick II (1197-1250), of the Hohenstaufen dynasty, maintained a close relationship with the remaining Moors in Sicily. He retained a Moorish chamberlain who was constantly at his side. Though breaking the Muslim powerbase in the region, he also solicited their aid in his struggle with the papacy.

After resettling conquered Muslims on the Italian mainland at Lucera, the monarch was said to have recruited an elite guard of 16,000 Moorish troops, many of them no doubt Africans. Within Sicily there was even a structure named, "The Gate of the Blacks." Pictured above is a statue of a Black Norman Knight (St. Maurice?) from the 14th Century."

Sources of quotation: Courtesy of geocites.com/College Park

The implications:

They set examples of long European presence of Africans (in this period, by way of invasions), who no doubt intermingled with local populations over there, and that they played an instrumental role in assisting northern Europeans to come out of the "dark ages".

As one review of John Le Goff's "The Birth of Europe (Making of Europe S.)" put it:

"Jacques Le Goff, arguably the leading medievalist of his generation, presents his view of the primacy of the Middle Ages in the development of European history. He contends that it was in the Middle Ages that many of the institutions and ideas we consider to be 'European' were defined and developed for the first time"

Most of the knowleadge that the Arabs reintroduced into Europe was taken from Syriac Christian monestaries and from Persian Sassanids. Definately, they were original in some of their works of mathematics,medicine,and science but most of the originators of such works were largely non-Arabs like Persians and Jews.

Yes, the Arabs should be acredited with reintroducing Greco-Roman works into Europe and also sea-fearing technology. Most of what the Arabs transported were sugar processing,the zero,magnetic compass,Hindu numericals,etc. These were mostly Asiatic inovations that came from India and China.

You forgot that the Byzantine Empire still existed during the Middle Ages. Byzantine served as a vector for exchange in Eastern ideas.

The Reinassance offically came from Italy.

[John Baker, Race. New York: Oxford University Press, 1974]

"The above picture of particularly dark-skinned Muslims is shown on various 'Afrocentric' web pages attempting to prove that Black Africans dominated Spanish society during the Muslim occupation. But further examination of more pictures from the same Book of Games reveals the same pattern as in the Cantigas: the component of the Muslim population that approached 'black African' in appearance seems to have been a small minority. If the pictures are any indication, then the bedrock of Islamic society in Spain consisted of people who resembled European or Middle Eastern types."

quote:

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But further examination of more pictures from the same Book of Games reveals the same pattern as in the Cantigas: the component of the Muslim population that approached 'black African' in appearance seems to have been a small minority

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Moorish Conquerer in Southern Europe:

from spaincostaluz.com website
The Moors are not a specific race of people. The word has never been clearly defined and remains ambiguous and confusing. This term has been broadly used to denote various people in North Africa, people who came from Morocco or simply to describe Muslims in general. Christians in the 13th century also referred to the Moors as "Moriscos" and "Mudejares".

The word MOORS may have evolved from the Greek 'Mauros' which means 'dark'. The Greeks were in Spain around 500 BC, 300 years before the Romans. The Romans probably pinched it from the Greeks, complete with its original connotation of 'dark'. This might explain why the Latin 'Maurus' translates literally into 'Moors', with no further definition. Borrowing directly from the Greek meaning, this would have been good enough for the Romans to describe the 'dark' skinned people of North Africa. Circa 46 B. C., the Roman army entered West Africa where they encountered black Africans whom they called ‘Maures’ from the Greek adjective mauros, meaning dark or black.
Chandler, Wayne B. "The Moor: Light of Europe's Dark Age." Golden Age of the Moor. Edited by Ivan Van Sertima. New Brunswick: Transaction Press, 1992: 151-81.

The Webster's New World Dictionary identifies Moors as "a member of Moslem people of mixed Arab and Berber descent." This deletion of "black" or "Negro" from the term Moor is generally recent. Though the word "Moor" originally seems to have been meant to indicate Blacks, it in time came to be applied to Muslims in general, especially the Berbers.

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Originally posted by Horemheb, University of The Trollers:

Don't mind rasol Evil....he thinks everyone is black.

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The Moors
By Ross Brann, Cornell University

"The 'Moor" in these and other texts of similar provenance underscores for Christians not only the Muslims' religious and cultural otherness but also and more particularly their 'foreign', African origins, their misplaced and thus temporary presence as outsiders without roots in Castile."

http://www.nyu.edu/gsas/program/neareast/andalusia/pdf/10.pdf

"Isidore of Seville, who died well before Islam came to Iberia, follows Roman usage in referring to northwest Africa as Mauritania (from which maurus/moro is derived) on account, he says, of its inhabitants **blackness**."

http://www.nyu.edu/gsas/program/neareast/andalusia/pdf/10.pdf

An elegiac passage from the thirteenth century Primera cronica general (chapter 559 General Chronicle of Spain) recounts the events of 711 fro what is construed as the (temporary) downfall of "Spain" in that year. The text testifies that semantic transformation of "Moor" was not nearly as benign as some readers have assumed:

"their faces were black as pitch, the handsomest among them was black as a cooking pot, and thei eyes blazed like fire; their horses swift as leopards, their horsemen more cruel and hurtful than the wolf that comes at night to the flock of sheep. The vile African people...."

http://www.nyu.edu/gsas/program/neareast/andalusia/pdf/10.pdf

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Originally posted by Horemheb The Troller:

have you been to Spain Thought? You will find the decendants of these people in southern Spain and they are not negroid.

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Thought Posts:

Annals of Human Genetics Volume 67 Issue 4 Page 312 - July 2003

Joining the Pillars of Hercules: mtDNA Sequences Show Multidirectional Gene Flow in the Western Mediterranean.

S. Plaza, F. Calafell, A. Helal, N. Bouzerna, G. Lefranc, J. Bertranpetit and D. Comas

"A similar estimation can be performed for Y-chromosome lineages, since E1* and E3a* haplogroups (according to the nomenclature of the Y Chromosome Consortium, 2002) found in NW Africa at a frequency of 8.0%±2.0% (Bosch et al. 2001), are of sub-Saharan origin."

Thought Posts:
http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/EJHG_2004_v12_p855.pdf

Table # 1

Huelva = E3a = 4.5%
Malaga = E3a = 3.8%

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb The "Professor":
and ? the point?

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Thought Writes:

The 'point' is that even after the Reconquista and the push-back of Moors and Mudejars (European Muslims) back into Africa the West African blood line still remains. The genetic record corresponds with the historic and skeletal record (see below).

Thought Posts:

**The second source of variation is provided by two populations (Muslims and Jews), different from the rest from an archaeological and cultural point of view, and can probably be attributed to influences from sub-Saharan Africa. The massive deportations of the Jews in 1492 and of the Moors between the 15th and 17th centuries may have erased this source of variability from the present population of the Iberian Peninsula.**

Am J Phys Anthropol. 1996 Mar;99(3):413-28. Related Articles, Links

Cranial variation in the Iberian Peninsula and the Balearic Islands: inferences about the history of the population.

Fox CL, Gonzalez Martin A, Vives Civit S.

Department of Animal Biology, Faculty of Biology, Barcelona, Spain.

A multivariate analysis of four prehistoric and nine historic populations from the Iberian Peninsula and Balearic Islands with large sample sizes (n > 30 individuals for the neurocranium and n > 15 for the facial skeleton) is presented, considering 874 male and 557 female skulls and using 20 craniometric measurements. Cluster analyses have been undertaken using the squared Euclidean distance as a measure of proximity and the average linkage between groups (UPGMA), and neighbor-joining algorithms as a branching method, and a bootstrap analysis was used to assess the robustness of the clustering topology. The study was complemented with a principal coordinate analysis and with the application of the Mantel test to measure the degree of correspondence between the information furnished by the female and the male samples. The analyses show that the main source of morphometric variability in the Iberian Peninsula is the Basque population. The second source of variation is provided by two populations (Muslims and Jews), different from the rest from an archaeological and cultural point of view, and can probably be attributed to influences from sub-Saharan Africa. The massive deportations of the Jews in 1492 and of the Moors between the 15th and 17th centuries may have erased this source of variability from the present population of the Iberian Peninsula. The remaining studied populations, including samples from Castile, Cantabria, Andalusia, Catalonia and Balearic Islands, are grouped together, showing a notable morphological homogeneity, despite their temporal and geographic heterogeneity. These results are in general agreement with those obtained in synthetic maps, by analyzing multiple genetic markers. In such studies, the Basque population is described as the main source of genetic variability, not only in the Iberian Peninsula, but also in Western Europe.

Thought Writes:

What does this have to do with Spain during the Middle Ages…nothing but another excuse to hide the fact that Greek (really Egyptian and Sumerian) knowledge was reintroduced to Dark Ages Europe by Africans.

{To say that there is no negroid interaction with other populations in places where they come together would obviously be foolish.}

Thought Writes:

I don’t even use the term ‘Negroid” because it does not give a full representation of Sub-Saharan biological diversity. Stop putting words in my mouth.

{To say that the Moors were/are black africans would be foolish as well}

Thought Writes:

I have provided three solid lines of evidence to support my position. I eagerly await ANY evidence from you in support of yours.

Well, the truth about the Moors is that most Imazigh[Berbers] and Western Africans were mostly soliders. The people in charge were mostly Yemeni and Syrian Arabs. The only time there was largely a dominating pressence of Western Africans and Imazigh[Berbers] was when the Almoravids and Almohads ruled Spain.

See the following websites:

Spain Under the Moors

In 711 a Berber Muslim army, under their leader Tariq ibn-Ziyad, crossed the Strait of Gibraltar from northern Africa into the Iberian peninsula. Roderick, last of the Visigothic kings of Spain, was defeated at the Battle of Río Barbate. By 719 the invading forces were supreme from the coast to the Pyrenees. Their progress north was arrested at a battle fought in France, between Tours and Poitiers, in 732 by the Frankish ruler Charles Martel. The first years of their rule, the Moors, as the Berber conquerors came to be known, held the peninsula (except for Asturias and the Basque country) as a dependency of the Province of North Africa, a division of the caliphate of Damascus. After 717 the country was ruled by emirs, appointed by the caliphs, who were frequently neglectful of their duties; misrule resulted in the appointment and deposition of 20 successive emirs over the next 40 years. This state of affairs was ended by a struggle between the Umayyad and Abbasid dynasties for control of the caliphate. The last of the Spanish emirs, Yusuf, favoured the Abbasids, but the local officials of the empire supported the Umayyads. The Umayyad faction invited Abd-ar-Rahman I, a member of the family, to become the independent ruler of Spain. In 756 Abd-ar-Rahman founded the powerful and independent emirate, which later developed into the caliphate of Córdoba.

During the establishment of Moorish power, a remnant of Christian rule was preserved in the northern portion of the peninsula. The most important Christian state of the northern peninsula, the small kingdom of Asturias, was founded about 718 by Pelayo, a Visigothic chieftain. Pelayo's son-in-law, Alfonso, conquered nearly all the region known as Galicia, recaptured most of León, and was then crowned Alfonso I, king of León and Asturias. Alfonso III greatly extended these territories during his reign, which ended in 910. During the 10th century the region of Navarre became an independent kingdom under Sancho I. As the kings of León expanded their domains to the east in the early 10th century, they reached Burgos. Because of the castles built to guard the frontiers of newly acquired territory, this region became popularly known as Castilla, or Castile. Under Count Fernán González the region became independent of León, and in 932 the Count declared himself the first king of Castile. In the 11th century a considerable part of Aragón was captured from the Muslims by Sancho III, king of Navarre, who also conquered León and Castile, and in 1033 he made his son, Ferdinand I, king of Castile. This temporary unity came to an end at Sancho's death, when his domains were divided among his sons. The most prominent of Sancho's sons was Ferdinand, who acquired León in 1037, took the Moorish section of Galicia, and set up a vassal county in what is now northern Portugal. With northern Spain consolidated, Ferdinand, in 1056, proclaimed himself emperor of Spain (from the Latin Hispania), and he initiated the period of reconquest from the Muslims.

http://www.sonhex.dk/under.htm

During this same time, Arabs entered Europe from the South. ABD AL-RAHMAN I, a survivor of a family of caliphs of the Arab empire, reached Spain in the mid-700's. He became the first Caliph of Al-Andalus, the Moorish part of Spain, which occupied most of the Iberian Peninsula. He also set up the UMAYYAD Dynasty that ruled Al-Andalus for over three-hundred years. (Grolier, History of Spain). Al Andalus means, "the land of the vandals," from which comes the modern name

http://www.xmission.com/~dderhak/index/moors.htm

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Originally posted by ausar:

Well, the truth about the Moors is that most Imazigh[Berbers] and Western Africans were mostly soliders. The people in charge were mostly Yemeni and Syrian Arabs. The only time there was largely a dominating pressence of Western Africans and Imazigh[Berbers] was when the Almoravids and Almohads ruled Spain...

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This is by far the clearest definition of what constitutes a Moor put forth. In fact, I have read that the Moors originate from a small group of families or clans from Yemen; in any case their roots are Yemeni Arab and as you stated, a probable alliance with the Arabs of Syria.

People seem to completely ignore the process of Arab colonialism; its policy of assimilation:
when these Moor colonizers had extended their realm to the far western regions of Africa, by then many of them, through assimilation, had become very much black Arabs, while the elite remained essentially ethnic Arabs.

One has only to examine Mauratania, for example, to see this process in play (see also Sudan, Algeria...)

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Originally posted by Thought2:
I have provided three solid lines of evidence to support my position. I eagerly await ANY evidence from you in support of yours.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
ausar is correct.
Super Car is trying to use his almost non existent knowledge of European history to make some kind of incoherent point.

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I hate to break up the loony fanfare, but Ausar's statements only back up what I was trying to emphasize; the process that went down in the middle ages. It is a shame, that non-Europeans have to teach you about European history, isn't it Horemheb?

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Go back and read the post ...you did not come anywhere close to saying what he said.
Earth to Super Car.....hello, is anyone home?

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"Pictured above is a veiled Berber Moibt Themin warrior; typical of the Almoravid types which dominated Spain in the 11th Century."

quote:

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ausar:

Well, the truth about the Moors is that most Imazigh[Berbers] and Western Africans were mostly soliders. The people in charge were mostly Yemeni and Syrian Arabs. The only time there was largely a dominating pressence of Western Africans and Imazigh[Berbers] was when the Almoravids and Almohads ruled Spain.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Numbnuts, SC....I asked you to read rubenstein's book 'Aristotle's children' a month ago. The book covers that VERY subject. You are so historically challenged you get it all confused and try to make some black thing out of it. If you would listen now and then and get your ego out of play you would learn something.

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You didn't take the advice of learning how to read alphabets, which are essential for you to at least understand the simplest terms in the parent thread, have you?

The Moorish obviously were a blend of muslims from North Africa, West Africa, Yemen, and Syria as posted. Some interestingly try to deny sub-Sahara African presence among these groups. So if you must know, that was one of points of the parent thread. The other point, was to show how these non-Europeans, who obviously had more going for them at the time, than the Northern Europeans, managed to conqueror parts of Europe, enough to help start the process, which you interesting call European "awakening"...from the 'dark age'. Remember the comments about Le Goff's book, which was written in a somewhat sophisticated language for trollers? Well, according to it, Le Goff's emphasis was on this crucial period of events in Europe; the 'Middle ages'; not ancient Greece! Get his book; it may teach you a thing or two; if you can read the words in simple alphabets.

It's interesting how genetics and historical texts come in the way of trollers, doesn't it, horemheb? It is evident that those studies, caught the trollers' pants down.

quote:

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This is by far the clearest definition of what constitutes a Moor put forth. In fact, I have read that the Moors originate from a small group of families or clans from Yemen; in any case their roots are Yemeni Arab and as you stated, a probable alliance with the Arabs of Syria.

People seem to completely ignore the process of Arab colonialism; its policy of assimilation:
when these Moor colonizers had extended their realm to the far western regions of Africa, by then many of them, through assimilation, had become very much black Arabs, while the elite remained essentially ethnic Arabs.

One has only to examine Mauratania, for example, to see this process in play (see also Sudan, Algeria...)

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The irony of this is that another amalganted group around the Western Sahara of Morocco is a group of mixed Yemani Arabs called the Sahrawi people. These people have been opressed by the Moroccan goverment and continue to fight over their land.

It was not just Yemani Arabs that migrated into Magreb[Northern Africa] but also Hilain and Sulayim Arabs that were driven to parts of Libya and the Western Desert and they mixed with the Fezzani and Berbers there. These sucessive waves drove many of the Tuareg people southwards into Sahelian countries like Mauritania. Should I mention that the Hilian Arabs were sent to Magreb from the Fatimid caliph which was stationed in Egypt.

The process of Arabization mostly occured through intermarriage. Since many of these societies like the Beja and Nubians were matrilineal the Arabs inherited the bloodline and rulership from the female. This is how the Arabs came to dominate the ruling positions in many non-Arabic countries in Africa.[see the book by Yusef Fodl Hassan]

Many of the modern Arab groups in Sudan like the Jaaliyin and Baggara are really not ethnic Arabs. The Jaalyin are arabized Dongola Nubians who were sedentary,and the Baggara are Arabized Nilotic people that look no different than southern Sudanese people. Most people in the media don't know this.

The elites in Mauritania have a good mixture and I seriously doubt they are purely Arabic in origin.

In the Arab world its like the one-drop rule in reverse. You have some Arabic ancestry and automatically you are an Arab.

There also seems to be some confusion about the term Moor. Originally this term was Greek and it did denote people that were either black or dark in color. This term later denoted Muslims either Berber,Western Africa,or Arab in origin. Much like the term saracen denoted Arabs but later became all quote Mohammedeans[the orientalist generic term for collective Muslims].

You also had black rulers in Al-andulusia like Yacob al-Mansur and Yusef Ibn Tashfin who were Almohad and Almoravid respectively.

However, I would be hestiant to claim the following people because the Almoravids and Almohads wrecked havoc on indigenous Western African kingdoms like Ghana. Many were deranged Islamicized maniacs who wrecked havoc across the Sahelian states in Western Africa.

Also the Arabs really didn't like Imazigh[berber] people very much. Many were treated like slaves and sold abroad on aution blocks in Cairo[al-Fustat] and even in parts of Iraq. The main body of the Moorish Imazigh were what we would call sellouts and some were actually slaves. Most either retreated in the mountains or fled further south that also pushed many Black Saharan tribes further southward to.

Read this following book if you want more details:

A Gateway to Hell, A Gateway to Paradise: The North African Response to the Arab Conquest
by Elizabeth Savage

ISBN 0878501126

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There also seems to be some confusion about the term Moor. Originally this term was Greek and it did denote people that were either black or dark in color. This term later denoted Muslims either Berber,Western Africa,or Arab in origin. Much like the term saracen denoted Arabs but later became all quote Mohammedeans[the orientalist generic term for collective Muslims.

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This is correct.

Moor - from Gk. Mauros, perhaps a native name, or else cognate with mauros "black" (but this adj. only appears in late Gk. and may as well be from the people's name as the reverse). Being a dark people in relation to Europeans, their name in the Middle Ages was a synonym for "Negro;" later (16c.-17c.) used indiscriminately of Muslims (Persians, Arabs, etc.) but especially those in India. -etymonline

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Originally posted by Horemheb:

Again, you are not paying attention. I think I implied to Thoughtless that there could be african genes in any population where the two groups were in close proximity. That does not mean the populations were black.
When are we going to hear about the black Japanese?

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A troller talking genetics is like an infant playing dangerously with matches; a fire could start any moment!

Sub-Saharan markers were found, precisely because these folks left their mark in the region. It doesn't matter what they look like. That is the point, not surprisingly, you missed.

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
[B]Supercar, there are a very fasinating chracter named Zaryab. His name translates as the ''black parrot'' because of his musical ability. He revolutionized al-andulasian classical music and his musical scale is still used across the Magreb. He opened up a school that many Western European/Northern Europeans went to. Some Portugeese and Spainish music has a strong Sahelian Saharan influence probably from the influence from the Almoravids and Almohads.

You also had black rulers in Al-andulusia like Yacob al-Mansur and Yusef Ibn Tashfin who were Almohad and Almoravid respectively.

However, I would be hestiant to claim the following people because the Almoravids and Almohads wrecked havoc on indigenous Western African kingdoms like Ghana. Many were deranged Islamicized maniacs who wrecked havoc across the Sahelian states in Western Africa.

Also the Arabs really didn't like Imazigh[berber] people very much. Many were treated like slaves and sold abroad on aution blocks in Cairo[al-Fustat] and even in parts of Iraq. The main body of the Moorish Imazigh were what we would call sellouts and some were actually slaves. Most either retreated in the mountains or fled further south that also pushed many Black Saharan tribes further southward to.

Read this following book if you want more details:

A Gateway to Hell, A Gateway to Paradise: The North African Response to the Arab Conquest
by Elizabeth Savage

ISBN 0878501126

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
The Moors were NOT heavily black. Hell any of us might have black markers in our background...that does not make us black. There were blacks in Rome, a minute % of the population , but some. You'll find black genes in many American Indian tribes....that does not make them black. Some of you guys find a black marker and just go nuts. This is exactly what happens when people try to mix history and politics. It leads you down these bizarre paths into 'goofball land.'

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Don't hurt your head; thinking doesn't obviously suit you.

Has it occurred to you why northern Europeans show relatively smaller sub-Saharan markers than southern Europeans? Again, let others do the thinking for you; Thought gave you a good dose of it earlier.

Remember:

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The Moors were NOT heavily black. Hell any of us might have black markers in our background...that does not make us black. There were blacks in Rome, a minute % of the population , but some. You'll find black genes in many American Indian tribes....that does not make them black. Some of you guys find a black marker and just go nuts. This is exactly what happens when people try to mix history and politics. It leads you down these bizarre paths into 'goofball land.'

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The Almoravids and Almohads definately were.Even the Sanhaja that invaded Spain had a large black component.

Please don't confused modern Morocco for the original homeland of the Moors. The name Morocco itself actually comes from a word Marakesh which was established by Yusef Ibn Tashfin and does indeed mean ''black''.

As you can see in the Y neighbor joining tree below, Andalusians group with other Europeans in a separate branch from Northwest Africans, who in turn group far away from Sub-Saharan Africans. Hence, the data indicates that Moors were unrelated to blacks, and that their 800-year rule in Spain did not appreciably affect that country's genetic make-up.

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Moors, group far away from Sub-Saharan Africans

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quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:

Well, the truth about the Moors is that most Imazigh[Berbers] and Western Africans were mostly soliders. The people in charge were mostly Yemeni and Syrian Arabs. The only time there was largely a dominating pressence of Western Africans and Imazigh[Berbers] was when the Almoravids and Almohads ruled Spain.

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Thought Writes:

We have to step beyond the narrow view of the 'True Negro' and take a Pan-African perspective. In addition to West Africans (which **INCLUDES** Imazigh) there were EAST Africans and people of African descent from Yemen as well. Prior to the birth of Muhammed Yemen was a part of the kingdom of Aksum. Islam spread itno Africa under a Caliph that had a East African grandmother - Omar. It is important to contextualize Yemen at this time.

quote:

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Originally posted by Wally:

when these Moor colonizers had extended their realm to the far western regions of Africa, by then many of them, through assimilation, had become very much black Arabs, while the elite remained essentially ethnic Arabs.

One has only to examine Mauratania, for example, to see this process in play (see also Sudan, Algeria...)

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Thought Writes:

Wally, please provide references or sources for this claim. "Ethnic Arabs" were diverse **prior** to the birth of Muhammed (the Year of the Elephant).

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:

Many of the modern Arab groups in Sudan like the Jaaliyin and Baggara are really not ethnic Arabs. The Jaalyin are arabized Dongola Nubians who were sedentary,and the Baggara are Arabized Nilotic people that look no different than southern Sudanese people. Most people in the media don't know this.

The elites in Mauritania have a good mixture and I seriously doubt they are purely Arabic in origin.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:

In the Arab world its like the one-drop rule in reverse. You have some Arabic ancestry and automatically you are an Arab.

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Thought Writes:

Arabs are a diverse amalgamation of people in Africa AND Asia. But when discussing these sorts of issues we need to contextualize our positions with time and place and support our positions with sources and references.

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
When are you going to start doing that Thoughtless? My advice is to gain some basic understanding of history before you confuse yourself further.

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Thought Writes:

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:

Yawn.... more non-specific slander. I am going to have to cut our life line Horemheb. When you are ready to make a statement of some value I will respond to you. But for now.... your fired!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:

Arabs are a diverse amalgamation of people in Africa AND Asia. But when discussing these sorts of issues we need to contextualize our positions with time and place and support our positions with sources and references.

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Concurred; viewed almost as misleadingly as the Berbers.

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

Wally, please provide references or sources for this claim. "Ethnic Arabs" were diverse **prior** to the birth of Muhammed (the Year of the Elephant).

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quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
Oh, like the Lemba you earlier claimed grouped far away from Sub-saharans.

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Your problem:

Your brain:

Your lack of answers:

Your demise: