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Many scholars have allowed Eurocentrist to spread the myth that the Somalians, Ethiopians and etc. represent the ancient Egyptians. This is a myth. The descendants of the Egyptians live in West Africa and Central-East Africa
It is a myth because it is clear from the research of Diop that after the fall of ancient Egypt the Egyptians migrated westward into West and Central-East Africa, not Ethiopia and Somalia which were already heavily occupied when Egypt fell into decline.
We also know that the Ethiopians are mainly associated with Punt. We find that around the time Egypt went into decline groups like the Nubians were coming from the east occupying the Sudan and Upper Egypt, while the Indo-European people who made up the backbone of todays Berber speaking people were beginning to occupy much of North Africa and the Delta. As a result, the only lands available for settlement when Egypt went into decline was West-Central-East Africa, not Ethiopia and the Horn.
The Eurocentrists chose the Ethiopians and Somalians as representatives of the Egyptians because these people had the fine features, usually associated with Europeans. But the history and anthropology make it clear the Ethiopians and Somlaians are not representatives of the ancient Egyptians who settled West Africa after Egypt went into decline.
Stop perpetuating the myth the Somalians-Ethiopaisn represent the ancient Egyptians.
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I am just wondering don't that Tutsi-man with the hair-style resembling a blue crown an Eas-tAfrican?not that I believe that there is an either or Ither make-up of who best represent the ancient Kemetians.. as you can clearly see puntites IE: East-Africans looking no different form their Kemetian counter parts...Gods-land or land of the ancestors was to the south of Kemet..to the west was the land of Amenta ....the abode of the dead..so more likely they were East-Africans...as well as West-Africans as the finds of Nabta platya and other archeological finds suggest such as the Mummified remains of the Ulan boy shows...The Kemetians were just a multi-African regional multi-African ethnic civilization as far as I can tell.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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ancient egyptians had ancestors and there ancestors had ancestors and none of them were from West Africa period.
Posts: 410 | From: Al-Ard | Registered: Jun 2009
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"The Big Myth: East Africans Represent the Ancient Egyptians" I don't know how this is a myth when ancient Egyptians were East Africans, they lived in the northeastern corner of the African continent, thus it's expected the closest related populations ethnically to be other east Africans.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Many scholars have allowed Eurocentrist to spread the myth that the Somalians, Ethiopians and etc. represent the ancient Egyptians. This is a myth...
No, the real myth is that Somalians, Ethiopians, and even northern Sudanese as well as Egyptians were all somehow "caucasoid".
quote:The descendants of the Egyptians live in West Africa and Central-East Africa
It is a myth because it is clear from the research of Diop that after the fall of ancient Egypt the Egyptians migrated westward into West and Central-East Africa, not Ethiopia and Somalia which were already heavily occupied when Egypt fell into decline.
LOL Now this is a myth also! There is no evidence that Egyptians migrated anywhere else. No archaeology or any ethnology of the kind has proven that any West African group directly descends from Egypt or that there was some kind of Egyptian 'Exodus' as proposed by Mostafa Gadalla.
quote:We also know that the Ethiopians are mainly associated with Punt. We find that around the time Egypt went into decline groups like the Nubians were coming from the east occupying the Sudan and Upper Egypt, while the Indo-European people who made up the backbone of todays Berber speaking people were beginning to occupy much of North Africa and the Delta. As a result, the only lands available for settlement when Egypt went into decline was West-Central-East Africa, not Ethiopia and the Horn.
First of all, Berber is an Afrasian language group NOT Indo-European as was explained to you ad-naseum but I guess deluded minds like Hammered cannot be swayed by facts or logic. Also when Egypt went into decline, the native Egyptians stayed where they are to receive the various foreign immigrations. They themselves did not leave in large numbers crossing the Sahara or Sahel into West Africa as you would like to believe.
quote:The Eurocentrists chose the Ethiopians and Somalians as representatives of the Egyptians because these people had the fine features, usually associated with Europeans. But the history and anthropology make it clear the Ethiopians and Somlaians are not representatives of the ancient Egyptians who settled West Africa after Egypt went into decline.
You are only partly correct. The Eurocentrists did choose Ethiopians and Somalis as representatives not only because of their features, but analysis of Egyptian mummies do show close affinities in craniofacial morphology. What the Eurocentrists were wrong about is that such morphology is native to Africa and not due to some incoming "caucasoids" but rather part of the diversity and continuum of black African traits. Also, there are many Egyptians as well as Sudanese, Ethiopians, etc. that have features that are not so "fine" or Euro-like.
quote:Stop perpetuating the myth the Somalians-Ethiopaisn represent the ancient Egyptians.
As usual the only one perpetuating myth here is YOU, Clyde. Posts: 26285 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: I am just wondering don't that Tutsi-man with the hair-style resembling a blue crown an EastAfrican? not that I believe that there is an either or Ither make-up of who best represent the ancient Kemetians..
That depends on how the Tutsi homeland of Rwanda is designated. Central Africa or Southeast Africa? It is all semantical. Either way they are all African, but ethnically you would expect the closest neighbors to be the closest relatives. Which is why Egyptians have been proven time and again to be closest related to both genetically and ethnically to Beja, Nubians, and then so-called Horners and even Chadic peoples.
quote: as you can clearly see puntites IE: East-Africans looking no different form their Kemetian counter parts...Gods-land or land of the ancestors was to the south of Kemet..to the west was the land of Amenta ....the abode of the dead..so more likely they were East-Africans...as well as West-Africans as the finds of Nabta platya and other archeological finds suggest such as the Mummified remains of the Ulan boy shows...The Kemetians were just a multi-African regional multi-African ethnic civilization as far as I can tell.
Actually if you looked closely there is a difference in looks between the Puntites and Egyptians. First of all, the Puntites were depicted with darker skin and and more aquiline features as well as long beards among the men. Obviously there are similarities, but being related does not mean you have to look the same. You are correct that the Nile Valley proper was settled by various ethnic groups which later became Kememu (Egyptian). As for the Sahara, it was this very region that was the homeland of various African groups of both East and West Africa. Thus the cultural connections between Egypt and West Africa should be sought in this region from prehistoric times NOT some mass exodus from one side of the continent to the other. Of course the worse case scenario are West Africans who claim Middle-Eastern origins for their peoples. Posts: 26285 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Does anyone take Clyde Winter's B.S serious??
Posts: 8805 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by AswaniAswad: ancient egyptians had ancestors and there ancestors had ancestors and none of them were from West Africa period.
The problem isn't claims on Egyptian ancestry so much as claims to Egyptian ancestry or rather Egyptian descent. As I just explained the connection between West African and Egypt lies in a common prehistoric Sahara. This was proven by archaeology as well as linguistics. Diop is correct to point out connections between his people the Wolof and the Egyptians, but he is wrong to say that his people or other West Africans were wholesale descendants of some ancient Egyptian refugees.
Posts: 26285 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: Does anyone take Clyde Winter's B.S serious??
Sadly, yes! --- the few usual nutcases like Marc Washington, Mike, etc.
Of course with Winters, you are talking about a man who claims the Dravidian languages of Eurasia as African but the Berber languages of Africa as Eurasian. Posts: 26285 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by AswaniAswad: ancient egyptians had ancestors and there ancestors had ancestors and none of them were from West Africa period.
The problem isn't claims on Egyptian ancestry so much as claims to Egyptian ancestry or rather Egyptian descent. As I just explained the connection between West African and Egypt lies in a common prehistoric Sahara. This was proven by archaeology as well as linguistics. Diop is correct to point out connections between his people the Wolof and the Egyptians, but he is wrong to say that his people or other West Africans were wholesale descendants of some ancient Egyptian refugees.
Exactly from what I recal and its been a while the Egyptians are said to have decended from Africans called Sahrans that migrated North along the River Nile and went West and some went East. So West Africans do share some origin with Egyptians but not direct descendans unless some new information surfaces. I do how ever believe Egyptians Migrated in to Northern Sudan and Ethiopia for better opportunities while Egypt was under opressive foreign rule. Plus the Egyptians showed the closest people culturally and ethnically to them were Africans living south and East to the Nile.
Posts: 8805 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Well I hate to disappoint you both jari & Djehuti, but more and more linguists, including myself, is more and more evidence to support the "claims" of Dr. Winters. The archeological and linguistic evidence is clear, that W. Africans were in Rome, Greece, the Middle East and the Nile Valley in ancient times. Linguists who support this contention are GJK Campbell-Dunn, Modupe Oduyoye, Mubinge Bilolo, & Catherine Acholonu. Even Martin Bernal in Black Athena Vol. III The Linguistic Evidence (pg 59) posits that the Dravidian languages are related to the Afro-Asiatic and Niger-Congo languages based on evidence. Campbell-Dunn has demonstrated that Sumerian is also closely related to Niger-Congo. Modupe Oduyoye has demonstrated Yoruba, Egyptian and Semtic to derive from the same source. Catherine Acholonu has been able to demonstrate the Igbo in Ireland and Crete in ancient times and has demonstrated Linear A to be based on scripts found in Nigeria. Independently GJK Campbell-Dunn came to the same conclusion.
I could go on for days, but a lot of the criticism of Dr. Winters' works are by people who haven't read the large body of data that many linguists have put out there based on sound comparative linguistic methods. So in this respect I have to disagree with you both and encourage you to study more deeply. There is a body of knowledge written in French and German (and English) that will force you to think differently.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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And again, because you lack a background in African languages you don't know the linguistic evidence and cultural pieces that make it impossible to a result of strictly prehistoric Africa.
You will come to find out that PUNT is really West Africa. I render PUNT simply BUNTU which was what the confederacy of the people were called in Ancient Times which survives in Zulu folklore till this day. Read Credo Mutwa's Indaba My Children.
The Greeks called PUNT is PANCHEA. This is an Igbo phrase PA-NCHI which refers to the "dwarfs" (the same dwarfs that were brought back to Egypt). The words Nchi and Nehsi are actually accurate renderings of the Igbo words for the dwarfs nwa-nchi/nwa-nshi (child of the goddess nchi/nshi/eshi). With further study you will find that the NEHESU were not only in Sudan, but in West Africa and that people travelled, like they do today, from east and west Africa to learn and for initiations.
The evidence is to much to be talked about on this forum and is scattered in several works already mentioned.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by AswaniAswad: ancient egyptians had ancestors and there ancestors had ancestors and none of them were from West Africa period.
The problem isn't claims on Egyptian ancestry so much as claims to Egyptian ancestry or rather Egyptian descent. As I just explained the connection between West African and Egypt lies in a common prehistoric Sahara. This was proven by archaeology as well as linguistics. Diop is correct to point out connections between his people the Wolof and the Egyptians, but he is wrong to say that his people or other West Africans were wholesale descendants of some ancient Egyptian refugees.
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Ancient Kush extended across a large part of the Sudan. In this vast region encompassing the Napatan and Meroitic civilizations there were many different nationalities, that spoke a myriad of languages.
Due to the ethnic diversity of the Napatans, it is clear that at least from the Napatan period of Kush the rulers of the empire had decided that no single language spoken in the empire would be used to record political, administrative and religious information. To maintain an equilibrium within and among the Napatan nationalities Egyptian was used as the lingua franca of the Napatan empire.
The leaders of the Napatan empire probably used Egyptian because it was an international language, and few Kushites were of Egyptian ethnic origin.Egyptian remained the lingua franca for the Kushites during the Napatan and early Meroitic periods in Kushite history. After the Assyrians defeated the Egyptians the ethnic composition of the Kushite empire began to change. Many Egyptians began to migrate into Kushite, to avoid non-Egyptian rule.
Beginning with the Assyrian defeat of the Twenty-Fifth Dynasty large numbers of nomadic people from the Middle East began to migrate into Egypt. These foreign people began to take over many Egyptian settlements. In response, Egyptians fled to Nubia and Kush to avoid non-Egyptian rule.
Other political and military conflicts erupted after the Assyrians defeated the Twenty-Fifth Dynasty. These incidents led many Egyptians to migrate out of Egypt into Nubia and Kush. For example, Herodotus’ mentions the mutiny of Psamtik I’s frontier garrison at Elephantine—these deserters moved into Kush.
The archaizing trend in Kush among the post Twenty-Fifth Dynasty Kings testify to a possible large migration of Egyptians into Kush. In 343 BC Nectanebos II, fled to Upper Egypt. Later according to the Natasen period stela we have evidence of other Egyptians migrating into Kush from Egypt (Torok, 1997, p.391).
Between the 260’s-270’s BC Upper Egyptian Nationalists were fighting the Ptolemy (Greek) rulers of Egypt. The rebellion was put down by Ptolemy II. This military action led to Egyptians migrating out of Egypt into Kush (Torok, pp.395-396). Rebellions continued in Egypt into the 2nd Century BC (Torok, p.426).
Between Ptolomy II and Ptolemy V, the Greeks began to settle Egypt. This was especially true in the 150’sBC. These conflicts led to many Egyptians migrating into Nubia and the Sudan. By the time the Romans entered Egypt, many Egyptians had already left Egypt and settled in the Meroitic Sudan.
Roman politics also forced many Egyptians to migrate into Kush. This was compounded by the introduction of the Pax Agusta policy of the Romans which sought the establishment of Roman hegemony within territories under Roman rule . This led to the emigration of many Romans into Egypt, and the migration of Egyptians into Kush.
During most of Kushite history the elites used Egyptian for record keeping since it was recognized as a neutral language.As more and more Egyptians, fled to Kush as it came under foreign domination . Egyptians became a large minority in the Meroitic Empire. Because of Egyptian migrations to Kush, by the rule of the Meroitic Queen Shanakdakheto, we find the Egyptian language abandoned as a medium of exchange in official records, and the Meroitic script takes its place.
The textual and historical evidence is clear. There was a large migration of Egyptian speaking nationals into Kush. This made Egyptian a major language spoken by Meroitic citizens. The change in demographics in the Meroitic Empire probably led to the shift from Egyptian to Tocharian, which would have been see as a neutral language because only a few Indians and native Buddhists were probably living in the empire at the time.
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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Even if the Egyptian language is related to various Niger-Congo languages, would that be necessarily be because Niger-Congo-speakers are descended from Egyptians. I'm more inclined to think that maybe Niger-Congo and Afroasiatic may have a common origin...and even then, Nilo-Saharan would be a better candidate for a relative of Afroasiatic than Niger-Congo.
The problem I have with people trying to link Egypt with western and southern Africa is that they're endorsing the myth of a culturally homogeneous Africa. They expect us to believe that Africans, despite being the most genetically heterogeneous people as well as being distributed across the world's second-largest continent, all have one culture. That is not even close to being true.
Tell me, did ancient Greeks have the same culture as Finns? Did Classic Mayans have the same culture as Iroquois? Did Tang Dynasty Chinese have the same culture as headhunting tribes in Borneo? If not, why should ancient Egyptians have had the same culture as Yorubas or Zulus?
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I do not believe that they all migrated but many migrated out of Egypt.
There were no exact numbers given for the people who exited Egypt during these periods. The migration of Semitic speaking people into the area is evidenced by the decline in the use of the Egyptian language after the fall of the 25th Dynasty, and rise of a period of open entry into Egypt by people during Assyrian rule of Egypt.
There were many restrictions placed on Egyptians by the Greeks. This is clear evidence of the decline of Egyptians expressing their own culture. The fact that the Greeks adopted many aspects of Egyptian culture and language in no way, supports the view that Egypt under the Greeks was an African civilization. The Greeks in India also adopted Indian religions and even began to manufacture Buddhas with European chracteristics to show their attempts to make the cultural ideology of the defeated people in their own image.
During the Greek rule of Egypt we see a decline in the arts and the beginning of a style of statuary during this period of people with obvious European features, as were the mummy portraits of the Roman period. Granted, in the culture of Hellenistic Egypt the same pharoanic insitutions were in place and rarely disrupted but, they were all made in the image of the Greeks and lack any resemblance to the cultural ideology of the ancient Egyptians.
Most of the Egyptian were not allowed in the principal Greek cities and there was a large scale migration of Europeans into Egypt during this period according to Alan K. Bowman, Egypt After the Pharaohs 332BC-AD642 (p.122). Bowman also notes that under the Greeks "The trickle of Jewish immigrants in the third century BC swelled significantly" (p.123). The major Egyptian cities during Greeco-Roman rule were settled by non-Egyptians.
Bowman wrote that "The major languages in this millennium in Egypt were Greek,, Egyptian in the form of demotic, hieroglyphic, hieratic and Coptic and Latin. Greek was in predominant use as a written language during the whole period" (p.157). Coptic, Egyptian written in Greek letters was develped by Christian missionaries to spread the gospel in the third century.
Let's not forget that many Egyptians during the Greeco-Roman period were slaves. And Bowman makes it clear that Egyptians and Greeks did not have equality.
The change in population is evident in the decline of many traditional Egyptian urban centers under Greeco-Roman rule, and rise of new urban centers mainly occupied by Europeans and a few Egyptian slaves.
The continuity between ancient Egyptian gods and Greeco-Roman gods worshipped in Egypt fail to support a view that Egypt was an African civilization under the Greeks.The Greeks easily adopted many Egyptian religions and introduced their own gods for worship even in small towns as noted by Bowman (p.170).
It is evident that after the Greeks took control of Egypt few Semitic speaking people settled the area from West Asia, as they did during the Assyrian period. Yet having read Bowman, you do know that many Jewish people did settle Egypt at this time.
In conclusion, there is no textual evidence outlining the number of people immigrating into Egypt after the fall of the 25th Dynasty, yet a cursory reading of the Greek and Roman literature written in Egypt during this period, and the rise of Greek as the state language, make it clear to me, that the Egyptian population shrank in Egypt due to population pressure by first the Semite speaking people during the Assyrian period, and especially Europeans during the Greeco-Roman eras. Consequently, we can not recognize Egypt as an African civilization after the fall of the 25th Dynasty.
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Even if the Egyptian language is related to various Niger-Congo languages, would that be necessarily be because Niger-Congo-speakers are descended from Egyptians. I'm more inclined to think that maybe Niger-Congo and Afroasiatic may have a common origin...and even then, Nilo-Saharan would be a better candidate for a relative of Afroasiatic than Niger-Congo.
The problem I have with people trying to link Egypt with western and southern Africa is that they're endorsing the myth of a culturally homogeneous Africa. They expect us to believe that Africans, despite being the most genetically heterogeneous people as well as being distributed across the world's second-largest continent, all have one culture. That is not even close to being true.
Tell me, did ancient Greeks have the same culture as Finns? Did Classic Mayans have the same culture as Iroquois? Did Tang Dynasty Chinese have the same culture as headhunting tribes in Borneo? If not, why should ancient Egyptians have had the same culture as Yorubas or Zulus?
They had the same culture because the Egyptian civilization included many Niger -Congo speakers.
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Based on the evidence, you're asking the wrong questions. You should be asking did ancient Egypt have a homegeneous culture? If it is understood that Egypt proper is the result of Africans moving in from the Sahara and Sudan, who spoke many different languages, how did this affect the over "culture" of Egypt? What aspects of "Egyptian" culture is "Egyptian" and what aspects are in fact "West-African/Saharan" or "Sudanic?"
What makes you think that the Egyptians spoke one language? If we find hundreds of languages along the length of Nigeria and the same distance across Africa in various spots, what would make you think that the same language was spoken the same distances in Egypt? We know that Egypt was made up of various African language groups, how does that affect the actual "language" of Egypt?
What words are Egyptian? What words are "others?" In an upcoming publication I will demonstrate that many of the "Egyptian" concepts and deities are in fact West African and it is these West Africans that travelled back and forth throughout Egyptian history that contributed majorly to its make-up.
It is complex and isn't something you can explain in one sentence. Egyptians are a mixed African people from various parts of Africa. The priesthoods and trading "companies" kept ties with West and Central Africa. During droughts and invasions, many of these Africans moved to various parts of Africa including back to West and Central Africa.
You should really study the African Super Highway of Wisdom and why it will help to demonstrate that the notion African people stood still is a farce and should be thrown out with the bathwater.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Even if the Egyptian language is related to various Niger-Congo languages, would that be necessarily be because Niger-Congo-speakers are descended from Egyptians. I'm more inclined to think that maybe Niger-Congo and Afroasiatic may have a common origin...and even then, Nilo-Saharan would be a better candidate for a relative of Afroasiatic than Niger-Congo.
The problem I have with people trying to link Egypt with western and southern Africa is that they're endorsing the myth of a culturally homogeneous Africa. They expect us to believe that Africans, despite being the most genetically heterogeneous people as well as being distributed across the world's second-largest continent, all have one culture. That is not even close to being true.
Tell me, did ancient Greeks have the same culture as Finns? Did Classic Mayans have the same culture as Iroquois? Did Tang Dynasty Chinese have the same culture as headhunting tribes in Borneo? If not, why should ancient Egyptians have had the same culture as Yorubas or Zulus?
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Even if the Egyptian language is related to various Niger-Congo languages, would that be necessarily be because Niger-Congo-speakers are descended from Egyptians . I'm more inclined to think that maybe Niger-Congo and Afroasiatic may have a common origin...and even then, Nilo-Saharan would be a better candidate for a relative of Afroasiatic than Niger-Congo.
The problem I have with people trying to link Egypt with western and southern Africa is that they're endorsing the myth of a culturally homogeneous Africa. They expect us to believe that Africans, despite being the most genetically heterogeneous people as well as being distributed across the world's second-largest continent, all have one culture. That is not even close to being true.
Tell me, did ancient Greeks have the same culture as Finns? Did Classic Mayans have the same culture as Iroquois? Did Tang Dynasty Chinese have the same culture as headhunting tribes in Borneo? If not, why should ancient Egyptians have had the same culture as Yorubas or Zulus?
No matter if you agree or disagree on the ancient migrations of certain or all groups that now mainly reside in Western Africa, shouldn't there be an understanding of the distinction between descended from the Nile Valley and "descended from Egyptians", while knowing the AEs themselves were not a homogenous group of black African people throughout that region and time period?
Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: Based on the evidence, you're asking the wrong questions. You should be asking did ancient Egypt have a homegeneous culture? If it is understood that Egypt proper is the result of Africans moving in from the Sahara and Sudan, who spoke many different languages, how did this affect the over "culture" of Egypt? What aspects of "Egyptian" culture is "Egyptian" and what aspects are in fact "West-African/Saharan" or "Sudanic?"
What makes you think that the Egyptians spoke one language? If we find hundreds of languages along the length of Nigeria and the same distance across Africa in various spots, what would make you think that the same language was spoken the same distances in Egypt? We know that Egypt was made up of various African language groups, how does that affect the actual "language" of Egypt?
What words are Egyptian? What words are "others?" In an upcoming publication I will demonstrate that many of the "Egyptian" concepts and deities are in fact West African and it is these West Africans that traveled back and forth throughout Egyptian history that contributed majorly to its make-up.
It is complex and isn't something you can explain in one sentence. Egyptians are a mixed African people from various parts of Africa. The priesthoods and trading "companies" kept ties with West and Central Africa. During droughts and invasions, many of these Africans moved to various parts of Africa including back to West and Central Africa.
You should really study the African Super Highway of Wisdom and why it will help to demonstrate that the notion African people stood still is a farce and should be thrown out with the bathwater.
It's funny you should say this. By all available texts, the Egyptians at least those of the delta and the Nile valley apparently read and wrote in one script but their spoken language was apparently not as singular as many tend to believe for there were differences in dialect-- enough so that in the 'Tales of Sinhue', the protagonist Sinhue who is from the Delta had a difficult time understanding the speech of the Sa'idi (Southerners). Ausar has pointed this out many times. Mind you this is just the difference between the Delta and southern Nile Valley alone, I'm sure the differences aren't that great around the middle Nile Valley between them; however what about those who live in the Eastern and Western deserts and not to add whatever dialectal or even language differences that existed within each region?
Despite the great language and overall cultural diversity of Africa, it is still possible albeit rare for a region to be inhabited predominantly by speakers of a single language. The only example I could think of is Somalia, where not only the entire nation but even the adjacent Ogaden province of Ethiopia consist overwhelmingly of Somali speakers, unless I am mistaken. But again, we must take into account dialectic differences.
Posts: 26285 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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The problem I have with people trying to link Egypt with western and southern Africa is that they're endorsing the myth of a culturally homogeneous Africa. They expect us to believe that Africans, despite being the most genetically heterogeneous people as well as being distributed across the world's second-largest continent, all have one culture. That is not even close to being true.
Dubious. Noting the links between ancient Egypt and Western and Southern Africa is hardly buying into a myth of a culturally homogeneous Africa. Keita notes such links, including DNA links such as the PN2 transition that links South, West and Nile valley Africans together, and he certainly does not subscribe to a monolithic African culture across the board.
The point in noting such links is not to prove any monolith, but to show that Egypt was indeed an indigenous African civilization, with clear links to other African peoples. The religion of ancient Egypt for example more closely resembles the religions of NorthEast Africans than anything from Mesopotamia, Lebanon, or Europe as credible scholars show.
Also keep in mind the Sahara, which once was a lush greenbelt that extended over 1/3 of Africa. The Sahara links West, North and East Africa in its various prongs, and people have moved across and within it for millenia. It is the Sahara that provided a major source of the peopling of the Nile Valley, and the Sahara has also been a conduit for the peopling of many West African regions. Not surprisingly, in West Africa, some of the most powerful historical kingdoms are centered on the Sahara. The Sahara is the motor of Africa's evolution, with revolutionary effects at times over vast swathes of the continent (Kruper and Kroelin 2006). quote:
"Radiocarbon data from 150 archaeological excavations in the now hyper-arid Eastern Sahara of Egypt, Sudan, Libya, and Chad reveal close links between climatic variations and prehistoric occupation during the past 12,000 years. Synoptic multiple-indicator views for major time slices demonstrate the transition from initial settlement after the sudden onset of humid conditions at 8500 B.C.E. to the exodus resulting from gradual desiccation since 5300 B.C.E. Southward shifting of the desert margin helped trigger the emergence of pharaonic civilization along the Nile, influenced the spread of pastoralism throughout the continent, and affects sub-Saharan Africa to the present day." --Kruper and Kroelin 2006, Climate-Controlled Holocene Occupation in the Sahara: Motor of Africa’s Evolution.
No one has to prove any cultural "monoliths" in linking the Nile Valley to other parts of Africa.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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This is perhaps too simple a way of looking at it but no!! Africa was not a cultural monolith but ideas and concepts stretches the lenght and breath of the continent. example these head rest from West-Africa Akan. Ethiopia South Africa or Mozambique; Tsonga people Old Makumba Tribe Headrest from Congo A Rare Ancient Egyptian Carved Wood Headrest ( Egypt 1550 BC to 1186 BC ) The point about the headdresses is people like ideas travels sometimes together,not unlike the Fractal mathematics,and the Mancala board games found everywhere throughout the continent From Axum and westAfrica http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/Igoware.JPGPosts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote: I do how ever believe Egyptians Migrated in to Northern Sudan and Ethiopia for better opportunities while Egypt was under opressive foreign rule.
Kemitian troops always haul their azzes south when they were not happy or in serious trouble they did the same thing centuries earlier over and over again.
Late Period: Desertion and revolt of a discontented army
A mass desertion Map of Egypt and Nubia With the accession to
the throne of Psammetic I (656-609 BCE), Pharaonic Egypt entered a last period of independence and prosperity, but it was vulnerable both from without and within. Its capability to fend off foreign aggressors and the stability of its régime depended to a large degree on the good will of mercenaries, many of whom were foreigners.
On leaving this city (Meroe), and again mounting the stream, in the same space of time which it took you to reach the capital from Elephantine, you come to the Deserters, who bear the name of Asmach. This word, translated into our language, means "the men who stand on the left hand of the king." These Deserters are Egyptians of the warrior caste, who, to the number of two hundred and forty thousand, went over to the Ethiopians in the reign of king Psammetichus. The cause of their desertion was the following:- Three garrisons were maintained in Egypt at that time, one in the city of Elephantine against the Ethiopians, another in the Pelusiac Daphnae, against the Syrians and Arabians, and a third, against the Libyans, in Marea. (The very same posts are to this day occupied by the Persians, whose forces are in garrison both in Daphnae and in Elephantine.) Now it happened, that on one occasion the garrisons were not relieved during the space of three years; the soldiers, therefore, at the end of that time, consulted together, and having determined by common consent to revolt, marched away towards Ethiopia. Psammetichus, informed of the movement, set out in pursuit, and coming up with them, besought them with many words not to desert the gods of their country, nor abandon their wives and children. "Nay, but," said one of the deserters with an unseemly gesture, "wherever we go, we are sure enough of finding wives and children." [1] Arrived in Ethiopia, they placed themselves at the disposal of the king. In return, he made them a present of a tract of land which belonged to certain Ethiopians with whom he was at feud, bidding them expel the inhabitants and take possession of their territory. From the time that this settlement was formed, their acquaintance with Egyptian manners has tended to civilise the Ethiopians. Herodotus Histories Part Two § 30.1, translated by George Rawlinson http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/weapons/deserters.htmPosts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Ezekiel 30:12,And I will make the rivers dry, and sell the Land (Egypt) into the hand of the Wicked (Asiatics/Assyrians): and I will make the Land waste, and all that is therein, by the hand of Strangers (Foreigners/modern Egyptians):I the Lord have spoken it.
That prooves Egypt was sold to the wicked (ex: Zahi Hawass) and inhabited by Stranger/Foreigners, so what was prophecied on the descendants of the ancient Egyptians and who were they, here
Ezekiel 30:23 and 26, And I will scatter the Egyptians among the Nations and Dispers them through the Countries (Africans in America)
Only one people fit that prophecy and that is the Africans in America and the Africans scattered throughout the world, and those Africans were in west Africa.
-------------------- Arthur Mayfield Posts: 53 | From: Atlanta, GA | Registered: Oct 2009
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It is obvious that the descendants of the Egyptians are no longer in Egypt (Cairo),but are the Africans scattered throughout the Nations, and I believe there are still some descendants left in Egypt but not in Cairo, more likely in Luxor,Aswan,west Africa and Deeper Sudan, and the rest were the scattered Africans who were scatter through the Nations.
Posts: 53 | From: Atlanta, GA | Registered: Oct 2009
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And the verses in Ezekiel 30 are clearly in the context of Egypt being defeated by Babylon- the Persians. Various refugees from Egypt might go here or there after a few battles, but Egypt still maintained its population. There are no "African Americans" in view to fit any such "prophecy."
30:22 Therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I am against Pharaoh king of Egypt, and will break his arms, the strong one, and that which was broken; and I will cause the sword to fall out of his hand. 30:23 And I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and will disperse them through the countries. 30:24 And I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon, and put my sword in his hand; and I will break Pharaoh's arms, so that he shall groan before him with the groanings of a deadly-wounded man. 30:25 And I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon, and the arms of Pharaoh shall fall down; and they shall know that I am Jehovah, when I have put my sword into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall have stretched it out upon the land of Egypt. 30:26 And I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and disperse them through the countries: and they shall know that I am Jehovah.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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It ALWAYS amazes me whenever I hear someone casually but accurately describe the process of how Africans from the fertile belt of the once lush Sahara, migrated to the Nile Valley, joined a cluster of peoples which lead to the formation of Kemet; then in the next breath declare that this process then became fixed! Therefore, all of the peoples who went there, would therefore be restricted to the confines of Kemet, forever, and ever, and ever...
It's nonsense, pure and simple. Backward migrations from Kemet wasn't an event where some 'Great Leader' stood before the masses of Kemet in front of the Great Gates and proclaimed "Let us leave this place to the foreigners and go West!"
The migrations of peoples is NOT an event; it is a process!
Migrations from the Sahara did not eliminate the populations that lived there, even after desertification became overwhelming - some folks left, many remained, some returned; like the ebb and flow of the tides...
And there was no Iron Curtain which hermetically sealed the population of Kemet from this natural human process...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Wally: It ALWAYS amazes me whenever I hear someone casually but accurately describe the process of how Africans from the fertile belt of the once lush Sahara, migrated to the Nile Valley, joined a cluster of peoples which lead to the formation of Kemet; then in the next breath declare that this process then became fixed! Therefore, all of the peoples who went there, would therefore be restricted to the confines of Kemet, forever, and ever, and ever...
It's nonsense, pure and simple. Backward migrations from Kemet wasn't an event where some 'Great Leader' stood before the masses of Kemet in front of the Great Gates and proclaimed "Let us leave this place to the foreigners and go West!"
The migrations of peoples is NOT an event; it is a process!
Migrations from the Sahara did not eliminate the populations that lived there, even after desertification became overwhelming - some folks left, many remained, some returned; like the ebb and flow of the tides...
And there was no Iron Curtain which hermetically sealed the population of Kemet from this natural human process...
posted
^ But again, there is no evidence that Egyptians embarked on some immense journey crossing the Sahara or Sahel during the decline period. I don't know why the insistence that West African groups are descendants of the Egyptians and not simply just relatives.
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Kemitian troops always haul their azzes south when they were not happy or in serious trouble they did the same thing centuries earlier over and over again.
Correct, but they didn't as some here believe haul themselves all the way to Sudan or Ethiopia. The upper Nile Valley and definitely the adjacent oases regions of the deserts were remote enough that foreign presence in these areas were always minimal.
Posts: 26285 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Well I hate to disappoint you both jari & Djehuti, but more and more linguists, including myself, is more and more evidence to support the "claims" of Dr. Winters. You are not disapnting me as I know of links between West anf the Nile Valley Africans. However nothing exists that says Egyptians are West and Central Africans rather than part of an East African Group who they traced their origins to, showed similarities to, and still have cultrual links to.
The archeological and linguistic evidence is clear, that W. Africans were in Rome, Greece, the Middle East and the Nile Valley in ancient times. Who is Denying this? Linguists who support this contention are GJK Campbell-Dunn, Modupe Oduyoye, Mubinge Bilolo, & Catherine Acholonu. Even Martin Bernal in Black Athena Vol. III The Linguistic Evidence (pg 59) posits that the Dravidian languages are related to the Afro-Asiatic and Niger-Congo languages based on evidence. I will have to do more research before commenting my comment about Clyde was regarding his claim that East African idea of Egypt is a Eurocentric ploy which it is not. No Linguistics and even then I have no care no interest in Dravidians as they are Not Africans.
Campbell-Dunn has demonstrated that Sumerian is also closely related to Niger-Congo. Modupe Oduyoye has demonstrated Yoruba, Egyptian and Semtic to derive from the same source. Catherine Acholonu has been able to demonstrate the Igbo in Ireland and Crete in ancient times and has demonstrated Linear A to be based on scripts found in Nigeria. Independently GJK Campbell-Dunn came to the same conclusion. Not what I was commenting on I think D.J should adress that.
I could go on for days, but a lot of the criticism of Dr. Winters' works are by people who haven't read the large body of data that many linguists have put out there based on sound comparative linguistic methods. My critisizm of Winters is his claim regarding the Egyptians and East Africans. His Linguistics I don't care for as Dravidians, Sumarians, and Olmecs and the others he focuses on are not intersting to me.
So in this respect I have to disagree with you both and encourage you to study more deeply. I will. There is a body of knowledge written in French and German (and English) that will force you to think differently. I still hold that the Egyptians were part of an East African Family.
Posts: 8805 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Wally: It ALWAYS amazes me whenever I hear someone casually but accurately describe the process of how Africans from the fertile belt of the once lush Sahara, migrated to the Nile Valley, joined a cluster of peoples which lead to the formation of Kemet; then in the next breath declare that this process then became fixed! Therefore, all of the peoples who went there, would therefore be restricted to the confines of Kemet, forever, and ever, and ever...
It's nonsense, pure and simple. Backward migrations from Kemet wasn't an event where some 'Great Leader' stood before the masses of Kemet in front of the Great Gates and proclaimed "Let us leave this place to the foreigners and go West!"
The migrations of peoples is NOT an event; it is a process!
Migrations from the Sahara did not eliminate the populations that lived there, even after desertification became overwhelming - some folks left, many remained, some returned; like the ebb and flow of the tides...
And there was no Iron Curtain which hermetically sealed the population of Kemet from this natural human process...
No one is against this but they fact remains Egyptians are part of the East African Family. Saying that Egyptians are West and Central Africans and NOT EAST Africans is just as bad as claiming Egyptian Migrations were fixed.
Egyptian N.Sudan
Ethiopian
Somali
Afroasiatic
The Afroasiatic languages constitute a language family with about 375 living languages[2] and more than 350 million speakers spread throughout North Africa, the Horn of Africa, and Southwest Asia, as well as parts of the Sahel, West Africa and East Africa. The most widely spoken Afroasiatic language is Arabic, with 230 million speakers (all the colloquial varieties).[3] In addition to languages now spoken, Afroasiatic includes several ancient languages, such as Ancient Egyptian, Biblical Hebrew, and Akkadian.
Nothing supports and Idea that Egyptians are not East African.
Posts: 8805 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: JeriAnkhAmun
quote: I do how ever believe Egyptians Migrated in to Northern Sudan and Ethiopia for better opportunities while Egypt was under opressive foreign rule.
Kemitian troops always haul their azzes south when they were not happy or in serious trouble they did the same thing centuries earlier over and over again.
Late Period: Desertion and revolt of a discontented army
A mass desertion Map of Egypt and Nubia With the accession to
the throne of Psammetic I (656-609 BCE), Pharaonic Egypt entered a last period of independence and prosperity, but it was vulnerable both from without and within. Its capability to fend off foreign aggressors and the stability of its régime depended to a large degree on the good will of mercenaries, many of whom were foreigners.
On leaving this city (Meroe), and again mounting the stream, in the same space of time which it took you to reach the capital from Elephantine, you come to the Deserters, who bear the name of Asmach. This word, translated into our language, means "the men who stand on the left hand of the king." These Deserters are Egyptians of the warrior caste, who, to the number of two hundred and forty thousand, went over to the Ethiopians in the reign of king Psammetichus. The cause of their desertion was the following:- Three garrisons were maintained in Egypt at that time, one in the city of Elephantine against the Ethiopians, another in the Pelusiac Daphnae, against the Syrians and Arabians, and a third, against the Libyans, in Marea. (The very same posts are to this day occupied by the Persians, whose forces are in garrison both in Daphnae and in Elephantine.) Now it happened, that on one occasion the garrisons were not relieved during the space of three years; the soldiers, therefore, at the end of that time, consulted together, and having determined by common consent to revolt, marched away towards Ethiopia. Psammetichus, informed of the movement, set out in pursuit, and coming up with them, besought them with many words not to desert the gods of their country, nor abandon their wives and children. "Nay, but," said one of the deserters with an unseemly gesture, "wherever we go, we are sure enough of finding wives and children." [1] Arrived in Ethiopia, they placed themselves at the disposal of the king. In return, he made them a present of a tract of land which belonged to certain Ethiopians with whom he was at feud, bidding them expel the inhabitants and take possession of their territory. From the time that this settlement was formed, their acquaintance with Egyptian manners has tended to civilise the Ethiopians. Herodotus Histories Part Two § 30.1, translated by George Rawlinson http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/weapons/deserters.htm
Very interesting, what is also interesting is that a couple of years back I read a written grievance by an Egyptian that complained of Asiatics over running Egypt and making it decline, and Also the Last Native Pharoah Nectanebo fled to Kush.
Posts: 8805 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Who were the people who fled to western Africa? Were they the priestly class,pharoahs or peasants? If there was enmasse migration couldn't you track through pollen trails and movement of crops? The only route in which large amounts of ancient Egyptains could move would be the road of 40 days. The only means of transport across a desert would have been donkeys. Camels were not introduced untill the Greco-Roman period.
Also, ancinet Egyptian text seems to point to the ancient Egyptians being very insular people. Both Herodotus and Sinuhe point to the ancient Egyptians not wanting to be buried in foreign lands. In this text Sinhue's body is rushed back to the Nile Valley to get a proper burial. However, I believe there is a ancient Egyptian text that states wherever the Nile touches is considered part of the land of Egypt. Unless the Tales of Sinhue is mistranslated and Herodotus quote about Egyptians donot like leaving the Nile valley.
I once was a big supporter of the ancient Egyptians fleeing into Western/Central Africa but I am know skeptical of such claim. I am still open to the thought but await more archaeological evidence. A very important area to study is the 40 day roag which streched from Asyut into moder day Chad.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: But again, there is no evidence that Egyptians embarked on some immense journey crossing the Sahara or Sahel during the decline period. I don't know why the insistence that West African groups are descendants of the Egyptians and not simply just relatives.
Agreed. Until there is MORE solid archeological and cultural evidence, some of the more extreme claims of West African- Egyptian links or migrations need to be treated with caution. There is however the matter of the Sahara, as a dynamic motor of Africa's evolution and development, a crucial linking pin over the centuries to both regions. I think looking at the issue from a Saharan cultural complex standpoint provides more than enough scope to link the areas together on important elements rather than try to prove some sort of direct highway between the two, or prove dubious "African American" refugees supposedly identified in Ezekiel's "prophecy" - which clearly deals with Babylon, and routine localized movements of the defeated in reaction to the Persian conquest. There was no wholesale population "evacuation" of the Nile Valley because the Persians won some battles. Stuff like this only plays into Eurocentric hands, although I understand bogus "black militants" may oft be constructed in some quarters to advance such easily demolished strawmen.
A broad Saharan/Sahelian cultural complex, with variants spinning off in different directions could well account for the similarities between West Africa and North Africa/Nile Valley without stretching the evidence on the ground beyond recognition. Hence the headrests and other examples Brada talks about could well derive from that complex, with variants spinning off into both the Nile Valley and various parts of West Africa. The Saharan complex could be seen as a key mixing ground, the mixing motor from which numerous fundamental historical patterns sprung. Backstopping this of course would be the even earlier human movement coming from East Africa and further south.
The above being said, the peoples of the Nile Valley seem to be more closely linked with those of East/NE Africa rather than West. But here again, a key linking pin is the Sahara. The builders of the Saharan megaliths for example, and the Saharan tribes with their cattle cults, cattle worship and cattle burials all find expression in Egypt's deepest cultural patterns. (Wendorf et al, 1999). The rock art of the Sahara finds its expression in Egypt as well. Mummification as in the Uan mummy is also another example. Some of these examples lean away from East Africa. Important examples Saharan rock art is found in Algeria for example, and the Uan mummy hails from Libya- again the Saharan zone at work. Such data is a lot easier to defend than mysterious migrant theories.
This is why some Eurocentric scholars studying the area conveniently skip over or downplay the Saharan zone. They are quick to jump thousands of miles south to draw DNA samples from allegedly "representative" 'Bantu', or even African Americans across the vast Atlantic (as in some 'comparison' studies of Ethiopians), or distant peoples from the forests of the Ivory Coast, but mysteriously neglect to adequately sample peoples within a few hundred miles of the Egyptian border. In like manner they will draw a few token samples from Arabized peoples farther north and label it 'Saharan' while conveniently skipping over huge swathes of Mali, Chad, Niger and the Sudan. We all know the deal.
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Kemitian troops always haul their azzes south when they were not happy or in serious trouble they did the same thing centuries earlier over and over again.
Correct, but they didn't as some here believe haul themselves all the way to Sudan or Ethiopia. The upper Nile Valley and definitely the adjacent oases regions of the deserts were remote enough that foreign presence in these areas were always minimal. [/QB]
True. It should be also noted that Nubian area origin troops were in demand as mercenaries not only in Egypt but in countries adjoining.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Who were the people who fled to western Africa? Were they the priestly class,pharoahs or peasants? If there was enmasse migration couldn't you track through pollen trails and movement of crops? The only route in which large amounts of ancient Egyptains could move would be the road of 40 days. The only means of transport across a desert would have been donkeys. Camels were not introduced untill the Greco-Roman period.
Also, ancinet Egyptian text seems to point to the ancient Egyptians being very insular people. Both Herodotus and Sinuhe point to the ancient Egyptians not wanting to be buried in foreign lands. In this text Sinhue's body is rushed back to the Nile Valley to get a proper burial. However, I believe there is a ancient Egyptian text that states wherever the Nile touches is considered part of the land of Egypt. Unless the Tales of Sinhue is mistranslated and Herodotus quote about Egyptians donot like leaving the Nile valley.
I once was a big supporter of the ancient Egyptians fleeing into Western/Central Africa but I am know skeptical of such claim. I am still open to the thought but await more archaeological evidence. A very important area to study is the 40 day roag which streched from Asyut into moder day Chad.
Yup, I was just about to point this out until Ausar beat me to it-- that Egyptians considered their native homeland sacred and did not want so much as to have their dead bodies buried in foreign lands. Add to that the fact that the deserts again largely kept them isolated and warded off invaders with the exception of Arabs who were desert nomads with camel transport.
Posts: 26285 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Hey folks look at it this way Kemet is in East-Africa fact.
At about 5000 yrs B.C the wet Saharan phase ended folks migrated in all direction including the Nile valley and beyond also fact.
Trade and commerce was made and maintained between the two regions also fact. large migration post-Saharan wet phase into or from Kemet into West-Africa unclear..
But Ideas by wondering priest or trader who may leave traces of their culture and genetic material a very strong possibility..btw this was surely a two way influence.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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If people are fleeing wars, drought, etc., you're not going to find much material evidence as people move in a hurry. Your best bet to trace the migrations is through culture and linguistics. The study of placenames is also very important. The names of deities are also important.
You have to know the culture of the people for they give you big clues. For instance, the Crook and the Flail of the Pharaohs are still used by Yoruba priests. This is not something one thinks of by oneself and it also has the same function as another culture thousands of miles away.
Another clue of migrations is the SHENU found among the Ghanaians. The shenu of the ancient Egyptians is the ovalish/rectangled shaped motif with the flat bar at the bottom that houses the royal names of the kings and queens. This same shape is associated with royalty in the famous "Akan or Ashanti stools." One of the names for the stool is AHENWA.
A linguist will not that often a /sh/ sound will split in related languages over time. Thus in this case /sh/ becomes /h/. The /u/ and /w/ sound are interchangeable and the Akan gives us better input as to how it was probably pronounced in the ancient Egyptian.
The fact that you have the same symbol, also associated with royalty, with the same or similar pronunciation between these two cultures that are far distant in time and locality, is not a coincidence. This is a non-accidental correspondence and can only be explained either by migration or travel, exchange between the two ancient cultures. This would be equivalent to saying the Khoisan could think of the Transformers Logo on their own, without any contact with Americans.
Also, among the Ga-Adagbe people of Ghana, they claim through oral tradition that they came from the Nile Valley. One clue that they are telling the truth is that they call the Mdw Ntr writing KPA writing. I thought this was a bunch of bull until I read Dr. Ayele Bekerie's book Ethiopic: An African Writing System.
In this book he demonstrates how the Ethiopic writing system is a simplified version of the Mdw Ntr script. The direction of the script from beginning to end is called HAPA. If you are a linguist you know that the /h/ in Egyptian also has the /ch/ or /kh/ sound. In Amarigna, HERU is pronounced CHERU. It is were we get the term CHERIBUM from. A /ch/ sound easy morphs into a hard /k/. HAPA (guttural /h/) and KPA are the same word to describe the Egyptian writing system.
How would this non literate tribe in Ghana know this? They would only know if they were there and migrated like they said. The reason why people don't think that there was migrations because they think they know Egyptian culture and don't recognize it, which is plain as day, in African cultures in general. You have to look for these non-accidental cultural correspondences and they betray anyone's notion that there were no migrations.
There is an abundance of evidence. Just have to take the time out to study the oral traditions and linguistics.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
It ALWAYS amazes me whenever I hear someone casually but accurately describe the process of how Africans from the fertile belt of the once lush Sahara, migrated to the Nile Valley, joined a cluster of peoples which lead to the formation of Kemet; then in the next breath declare that this process then became fixed! Therefore, all of the peoples who went there, would therefore be restricted to the confines of Kemet, forever, and ever, and ever...
It's nonsense, pure and simple. Backward migrations from Kemet wasn't an event where some 'Great Leader' stood before the masses of Kemet in front of the Great Gates and proclaimed "Let us leave this place to the foreigners and go West!" This, I refer to as the "Exodus syndrome."
The migrations of peoples is NOT an event; it is a process!
Migrations from the Sahara did not eliminate the populations that lived there, even after desertification became overwhelming - some folks left, many remained, some returned; like the ebb and flow of the tides...
And there was no Iron Curtain which hermetically sealed the population of Kemet from this natural human process...
The migrations of African populations, even from sedentary cultures, has been a constant throughout history. There has also been an exhaustive demonstration, using linguistics, cultural practices, genetics, to identify the particular western African ethnic groups that classifies them as once being components of the multi-ethnic nation of Kemet. These groups were not merely 'relatives', in that they shared a commonality of being Black, they are the descendants of a common nationality that was formed in Kemet...
What is it about this analysis that you don't understand or that you disagree with?Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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Djehuti and ausar, defending the concept of a hermetically sealed Egypt:
quote:Yup, I was just about to point this out until Ausar beat me to it-- that Egyptians considered their native homeland sacred and did not want so much as to have their dead bodies buried in foreign lands.
This argument is specious and bogus in that it attempts to impart on the Ancient Egyptian nationality a trait exclusive to them, when in fact it merely describes a natural tendency of all human societies to regard their culture as home. You can replace "Egyptian" with the name of any other nationality and the statement would be valid; but it doesn't contradict the urge or necessity of humans to migrate:
a) The Irish, who certainly love their homeland of Ireland, left their beloved home in a mass emigration to the United States during the potato famine...
b) The Chinese, who also love their homeland, have established settlements throughout the world...
c) The characteristics of any recent emigrant to a new environ is that the heart remains at home - best exemplified by retaining the 'mother' language - whereas the body, the reality exists in this new environ. This is a universal human trait.
...but this is merely a lead up to describing the essential ideological bias of a hermetically sealed Kemet:
quote:Add to that the fact that the deserts again largely kept them isolated and warded off invaders...
Which means, I suppose, that once they got there, they became 'trapped' by the deserts, they then were unable to continue with their natural migration instincts and leave (Individuals & groups - NOT the entire population) Egypt...
The entire history of humanity contradicts this illogical bias.
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
^ Yet we have actual evidence supporting the mass migrations of both Irish and Chinese but NOT Egyptians! Apparently this can't get through to your head.
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi ...Trade and commerce was made and maintained between the two regions also fact. large migration post-Saharan wet phase into or from Kemet into West-Africa unclear..
Well the farthest direct contact Egypt had was probably to the Lake Chad region, though I don't think such trade and contact was as frequent since it was still a great distance away.
quote:..But Ideas by wondering priest or trader who may leave traces of their culture and genetic material a very strong possibility..btw this was surely a two way influence.
As far as cultural connections, especially in things such as spiritual traditions and certain customs, again I have to say that these were prehistoric and are due to common ancestors in the Sahara. The genetic lineages that tie Egypt to West Africa are mainly E3a but also African variants of R1 and R1a as actually found in Saharan populations but these are just paternal lineages alone.
Posts: 26285 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yet we have actual evidence supporting the mass migrations of both Irish and Chinese but NOT Egyptians! Apparently this can't get through to your head.
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi ...Trade and commerce was made and maintained between the two regions also fact. large migration post-Saharan wet phase into or from Kemet into West-Africa unclear..
Well the farthest direct contact Egypt had was probably to the Lake Chad region, though I don't think such trade and contact was as frequent since it was still a great distance away.
quote:..But Ideas by wondering priest or trader who may leave traces of their culture and genetic material a very strong possibility..btw this was surely a two way influence.
As far as cultural connections, especially in things such as spiritual traditions and certain customs, again I have to say that these were prehistoric and are due to common ancestors in the Sahara. The genetic lineages that tie Egypt to West Africa are mainly E3a but also African variants of R1 and R1a as actually found in Saharan populations but these are just paternal lineages alone.
Jehutu
Can you list us some of those evidence of mass migration that you have for chinese and irish?
Lion!
Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yet we have actual evidence supporting the mass migrations of both Irish and Chinese but NOT Egyptians! Apparently this can't get through to your head. ...
You are joking, right?
The referenced thread below provides an abundance of evidence that details, using linguistics, customs, etc., the origins of specific West African ethnic groups from Ancient Egypt. Now you don't have to agree with the evidence presented, but you certainly cannot deny its existence!
The genetic relationship between two languages is determined by examining the basic vocabulary of the two languages. When there is systematic correspondence between the two languages in a large number of basic words, such as body parts, lower numerals and natural objects, the existence of a genetic relationship cannot be in doubt.
Mtau Ntr - Wolof(Senegal, West Africa)
aam - aam : seize (take this)
aar - aar : paradise (divine protection)
atef - ate : a crown of Osiris, judge of the soul (to judge)
ba - bei : the ram-god (goat)
bai - bai : a priestly title (father)
ben ben - ben ben : overflow, flood
bon - bon : evil
bu - bu : place
bu bon - bu bon : evil place
bu nafret - bu rafet : good place
da - da : child
deresht - deret : blood
diou - diou rom : five
djit - djit : magistrate (guide, leader)
fero - fari : king
iaay - yaay : old woman (mother)
itef - itef : father
kat - Cott li : vagina ('Katt bi' is a vulgar term for having sex)
kau - kaou : elevated, above (heaven)
kaw - kaw : height
kef - kef : to seize, grasp
kem -khem : black (burnt, burnt black)
kemat - kematef : end of a period, completion, limit
khekh - khekh : to fight, to wage war, war
kwk - kwk : darkness
maat - mat : justice
maga - mag : veteran, old person
mer - maar : love (passionate love)
nag - nag : bull (cattle)
nak - nak : ox, bull (cow)
NDam - NDam : throne
neb - ndab : basket (calabash)
nem - temb : float
nen - nen : place where nothing is done (nothingness)
nit - nit : citizen
onef - onef : he (past tense)
ones - ones : she (past tense)
onsen - onsen : they (past tense)
pe - pey : capital, heaven (King's capital)
per - per : house (the wall surrounding the house)
pur - bur : king
rem - erem : to weap, tears (compassion)
ro - ro : mouth (to swallow)
sa - sa : wise, educated, to teach
seked - seggay : a slope
sen - sen : brother
sent - san : sister
set - set : woman (wife)
shopi - sopi : transform
sity - seety : to prove
ta - ta : earth, land (inundated earth)
ta tenen - ten : first lands (clay of first humans)
tefnit - tefnit : to spit
top - bop : top of head
Mtau Ntr Bu nafret su em bu bon, "a good place has become an evil place" Wolof Bu rafet mel ni bu bon, "a good place has become an evil place" (good place = "bu nafret/bu rafet (evil place = "bu bon/bu bon
Mtau Ntr mer on ef, "he loved" Wolof maar on ef, "he loved passionately"
Mtau Ntr mer on es, "she loved" Wolof maar on es, "she loved passionately"
Mtau Ntr mer on sen, "they loved" Wolof maar on sen, "they loved passionately"
Mtau Ntr and Wolof Demonstratives (this, that, these, those - P > B)
posted
^ Language relation is still NOT proof of descent from the other. Has is not occurred to you that such relations stem from common origins in the Sahara?
Posts: 26285 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Language relation is still NOT proof of descent from the other. Has is not occurred to you that such relations stem from common origins in the Sahara?
Why not the idea that these relations could have formed during a longer time period in which the NV was densely populated only to expand into the "wet" Sahara via the various "wadis" which accounted for a much shorter time period in comparison even up until now?
Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
Jari-Ankhamun are you engaging in eyeball anthropology? Is that why you are posting all of the selective picture spam?
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by argyle104: Jari-Ankhamun are you engaging in eyeball anthropology? Is that why you are posting all of the selective picture spam?
Nope, just for reference purpose. Cranio, Language, and Limb proportions agree with me. I mean damn you are always on my nutsack, glad I bring purpose to your pathetic little life.
Posts: 8805 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Language relation is still NOT proof of descent from the other. Has is not occurred to you that such relations stem from common origins in the Sahara?
Language relationships is the best method to show a relation. Genetics can not identify the language spoken by the individual who possess a selected number of genes.
If you are suggesting that this relationship goes back to a Saharan locale please provide the evidence supporting this relationship. Also please describe the language spoken by these people who you allege represent your proposed ancestral group.
What we do have is evidence of the Egptian language which shows cognition to West African language. This shows a historical relationship and is based on empirical evidence your assumptions are based on congesture.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Language relation is still NOT proof of descent from the other. Has is not occurred to you that such relations stem from common origins in the Sahara?
Dr. Winters responds:
Language relationships is the best method to show a relation. Genetics can not identify the language spoken by the individual who possess a selected number of genes.
If you are suggesting that this relationship goes back to a Saharan locale, please provide the evidence supporting this relationship. Also please describe the language spoken by these people who you allege represent your proposed ancestral group.
What we do have is evidence of the Egyptian language which shows cognition to West African languages. This shows a historical relationship and is based on empirical evidence; your assumptions are based on conjecture.
Amen, Dr. Winters, Amen... Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Language relation is still NOT proof of descent from the other. Has is not occurred to you that such relations stem from common origins in the Sahara?
Language relationships is the best method to show a relation. Genetics can not identify the language spoken by the individual who possess a selected number of genes.
If you are suggesting that this relationship goes back to a Saharan locale please provide the evidence supporting this relationship. Also please describe the language spoken by these people who you allege represent your proposed ancestral group.
What we do have is evidence of the Egptian language which shows cognition to West African language. This shows a historical relationship and is based on empirical evidence your assumptions are based on congesture.
.
West african languages= West Atlantic sub group of the greater Niger-congo phyllum
Ancient Egyptian language(s)= Afrasian Phyllum
Two different families. Not exactly rocket science.
You're not a linguist Clyde winter, i read you court files, you didn't pass the admission test to become a police officer, and the schools you worked for disowned you and recommended Chicago Police Department not to hire you. You linguistic methods have no credibility, since your own institution and it's faculty don't acknowledge your work.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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