An American academic, who teaches at the Warwick University in the United Kingdom, has described J R R Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings trilogy as an 'epic rooted in racism'.
Dr Stephen Shapiro, an expert in cultural studies, race and slavery, said the author used his novels to present bigotry through a fantasy world.
Following the release in UK of the film The Two Towers, the second in the series, Dr Shapiro told rediff.com that the books represent anxieties about immigration in mid-1950s Britain.
He said: "Put simply, Tolkien's good guys are white and the bad guys are black, slant-eyed, unattractive, inarticulate and a psychologically undeveloped horde."
In the trilogy, a small group, the fellowship, is pitted against a foreign horde and this reflects long-standing Anglo-European anxieties about being overwhelmed by non-Europeans, he said.
This is consistent with Tolkien's Nordicist convictions. He thinks the Northern races had a culture and it was carried in the blood, Dr Shapiro said.
While Tolkien describes the Hobbits and Elves as amazingly white, ethnically pure clans, their antagonists, the Orcs, are a motley dark-skinned mass, akin to tribal Africans or aborigines. The recent films amplify a 'fear of a black planet' and exaggerate this difference by insisting on stark white-black colour codes, Dr Shapiro said.
He added: "Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings because he wanted to recreate a mythology for the English, which had been destroyed by foreign invasion. He felt the Normans had destroyed organic English culture. There is the notion that foreigners destroy culture and there was also a fantasy that there was a solid homogeneous English culture there to begin with, which was not the case because there were Celts and Vikings and a host of other groups.
"We have a pure village ideal, which is being threatened by new technologies and groups coming in. I think the film has picked up on this by colour coding the characters in very stark ways.
"For instance, the fellowship is portrayed as uber-Aryan, very white and there is the notion that they are a vanishing group under the advent of the other, evil ethnic groups.
"The Orcs are a black mass that doesn't speak the languages and are desecrating the cathedrals.
"For today's film fans, this older racial anxiety fuses with a current fear and hatred of Islam that supports a crusading war in the Middle East. The mass appeal of The Lord of the Rings, and the recent movies may well rest on racist codes."
Dr Shapiro said that the trilogy, which began in the 1930s and published in the 1950s, was written at the onset of de-colonisation, when the first immigrants from the Caribbean and Indian subcontinent came to Britain. The Midlands, Tolkien's model for the Shire, was becoming a multicultural region.
A spokesman for Harper Collins, publisher of the trilogy, accused Dr Shapiro of mixing up his dates: "The copyright for The Fellowship of the Ring, the first in the series, was 1954. Tolkien would have finished writing the book quite a bit before the mid-50s and certainly the idea would have come a number of years before, given the sheer size of the book. So I think the timing is out.
"A number of academics have commented on Tolkien's work and this is the first time anybody has ever seen these issues in it. Of course, if you look hard enough at many great epics, you can extrapolate what you like, particularly if you have academic kudos behind you.
"A number of people have said that they think The Lord of the Rings could be an allegory for the Second World War, or indeed the first, as Tolkien fought in it, but it was never a view that he agreed with. His great abiding passion and interest came from the Icelandic sagas and mythology, and this was his version of one of those sagas."
Richard Crawshaw, a trustee for the Tolkien Society, said: "There was definitely no racial intent in his work. He detested racism."Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:"A number of academics have commented on Tolkien's work and this is the first time anybody has ever seen these issues in it.
I've read the Ring Trilogy a couple of times and, although I enjoyed reading it, I'm surprised that the barely sublimated racsism has not been commented on before.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I mentioned awhile ago on the old Nile Valley forum LOTR's key mytho-elements of racial purity and whiteness, and the threat of the Blacks, the Arabs, the Asiatics....Hyenna riding, Elephant riding [channeling Hannibal?] enemies of "Middle Earth" {aka Euro-central?]
The whole 'return of the king' concept was about restoring Europes waning racial purity by mating the super-white heir to the throne Aragon [Aryan?] with Elves who are even whiter.
Also the the big speech about 'men of the west unite' during the climatic final battle all but drops pretense of anything other than a rallying of the whites against all of their potential enemies - Asiatic, African, Arabian, etc..
The point of this isn't to critique a particular book, but to understand the psychological roots of the racist discourse in history.
It is a comprehensively perverted world-view, which even Africanists can unconsciously succumb to, because we are subtly propagandised with it every day.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Well, it only works if you believe in FANTASY stories as REAL history. Real history says that ancient Western European civilization that originates among the mountain valleys of Western Europe and "Germania" is a FARCE. Civilization originated THOUSANDS of years prior to that in lands to the South and East and had nothing to do with the "white" Elves of the Western European forest.
In fact, the ULTIMATE fantasy is to think of Elves as western European. In all reality all the tales of the elves ACTUALLY are reflections on ancient cultures of Africa, Asia and elsewhere, who DID worship nature. The dwarves refer back to the ancient anu and Twa of Africa and elsewhere. The hobbits are the small people that some scientists say existed in places as far away as Australia. So all this talk about racism in the Lord of the Rings only reflects a FANTASY of Europe being the ORIGIN of high culture and civilization when it wasnt. So no matter the racial overtones, it is still PURE FANTASY to me.
However, what this FANTASY story does reflect is a FANATICAL desire among Western Europeans to put THEMSELVES on top of everyone else as a way of GETTING BACK at everyone else for being the LAST to become "civilized". In this way such fantasy stories become the base "truth" that Europeans hold self evident and are the keys to their manifest destiny. NONE of it is REAL, but the IDEA is what counts, which states that Europeans are must become the Kings of Kings on the world stage and return power and glory to Europe, regardless of whether ancient Europe was the HOME of civilization or not, basically WHITE supremacy 101.
Actually, to the reality is that the Myths reflect a way of Europeans trying to deny the fact that the TRUTH of history was that Western Europe was on the RECIEVING end of culture and CIVLIZATION and that they were BACKWARDS compared to their neighbors in the South and East. Their embarrassment at this state of BACKWARDNESS compared to Rome, Greece, Africa(Egypt, Sudan, ets) and ultimately the golden age Islamic empires of the Moors and later the Ottomans, is what sparked their desire to become "masters" of the world, based on a FANATICAL claim of racial purity (which never existed in fact). Western Europeans are descendents of populations who migrated North and were basically CUT OFF from the developments of civilization that were occurring in WARMER climes to the South and East. I am not claiming that the Europeans are INFERIOR, however. But I am claiming that much of Europe's claim to greatness is based on a whole BOATLOAD of B.S. that is NOT based on any historical fact and that Western Europe was the LAST to become civilized among men, not the FIRST.
This mythology of Western Europeans being the ORIGIN of civilization is behind the RACISM and oppression that parades around as civilization. It can be seen as expressed in the Aryanist doctrines, the Christian attitude toward indigenous people and the ECONOMIC exploition of indigenous populations. ALL of it has its origins in the MYTHOLOGY of Western Europe being the ORIGIN of civilization and culture, when it WAS NOT.
Posts: 8890 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Well, it only works if you believe in FANTASY stories as REAL history.
I wish that were true. Unfortunately the relationships are subliminal and devastating.
How many images of Africa have been shaped by Tarzan?
How many Black American Baptist churches worship the blonde, blue eyed image of Jesus?
How many so called Africanist continue the racial discourse rooted in the assumptive purity of the white race of Europe, and the assumed miscgenation of Africans and East Asians visa the European 'standard'?
This fantasy/ideology is reflected in the Sudan genocide....the Rwanda genocide, and the more self defeating discourses of so called Afro-centrism.
Hamites are as much a of myth has Hobbits.
The Middle East is as much of a false construct as Middle Earth.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:The point of this isn't to critique a particular book, but to understand the psychological roots of the racist discourse in history.
The appeal of this type myth is a vein that runs through European (inclusive of its offshoots) history. It often finds an expression through art.
The Nazis appealed to a pure Aryan past subverted by Jews and Slavs. Richard Wagner's operas (The Nibelung's Ring, etc.,) were used to rally Germans to this vision.
We still can't shake off the Pharaonic race nonsense in Egypt. To this day we can barely find a TV documentary about ancient Egypt in which the pharaohs are not depicted as white.
DW Griffith's racist movie, Birth of a Nation, is another example of this myth of a pure white past (southern damsels, moonlight and marigolds)subverted by the presence of a vile inferior race. This movie is still hailed as a "great" movie despite its unrelenting racism.
It seems to be a way for Europeans to rationalize their agression against others.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote: Civilization originated THOUSANDS of years prior to that in lands to the South and East and had nothing to do with the "white" Elves of the Western European forest.
The white Elves is also a myth. Many of the Wee people, when you read the authentic literature were described as small black people. These small Blacks may refer to the pgymies who formerly occupied the ancient world until the Great Flood destroyed their civilization.
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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It's a known fact that many of the old fantasy writers like J.R.R. Tolkien (LOTR trilogy and other Middle Earth epics) and C.S. Lewis (Chronicles of Narnia) wrote their novels with racial ideals in mind. Where everybody is white, and all the dark-skinned people are evil or something. TCON is more blatant...I've read in some of the later books, black-skinned people are referred to as "darkies" and other derogatory terms.
Problem is, when people think of a fantasy movie...THIS is what they think of. They think fantasy is all about elves and dwarves and orcs...when there are HUNDREDS of fantasy stories from ALL regions from around the world! Why should one aspect of fantasy (the European kind often portrayed) be pushed into films when all others are left out?
On the plus side though, there's a new fantasy movie coming out called Eragon. It is more recently written (meaning 2002). It's the first book in a trilogy...
I don't know how good it's going to do, but I know Djimon Honsou is in it and he plays a character named Ajihad. A good guy who leads a group called the Varden.
Here is the movie website. You can see the trailer on there too.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:The white Elves is also a myth. Many of the Wee people, when you read the authentic literature were described as small black people.
Obviously Elves and Dwarfs are myths. These myths probably arose innocently among Europeans some time in pre-history. Whether or not Elves and Dwarves refer to real people is debatable. To go back and forth about the "real" elves being black or white is destined to be an exercise in futility.
The more interesting aspect of this conversation is the intentional appeal to myths in the service of racism and xenophobia.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote: Obviously Elves and Dwarfs are myths. These myths probably arose innocently among Europeans some time in pre-history. Whether or not Elves and Dwarves refer to real people is debatable. To go back and forth about the "real" elves being black or white is destined to be an exercise in futility.
Not really. Like the struggles of Hercules, many of the myths and fairy tales about Dwarves go back to the conflict between the Indo-Europeans and Blacks who were ruling Europe when the Indo-Europeans arrived on the scene.
These Black rulers of Europe are often referred to as Dwarves or Ogres. These Blacks were supposed to have lived in castles and possessed fabulous treasures. In most of the fairy tales about these Blacks whites are trying to steal their treasures and their land.
The term Ogres, probably comes from the word Ugrian, an early name for the Blacks . One of the major Ugrian tribes was the Magyar=Hungarians who trace their origins back to the Sudan in Africa.
posted
You're correct that the words Hungarian and Ogre have similar roots. Both words refer to the HUNS, as in Atilla the Hun, who invaded Europe from the Eurasian steppes. Your theory of a Sudanic provenance is far-fetched at best.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote: You're correct that the words Hungarian and Ogre have similar roots. Both words refer to the HUNS, as in Atilla the Hun, who invaded Europe from the Eurasian steppes. Your theory of a Sudanic provenance is far-fetched at best.
^^The Huns and Magyar are two different groups.
Calypso before you make this claim you should read the information at the website I posted.
The Sudani origin for the Hungarians has been reconstructed by Hungarians/Magyar themselves. This is not my theory
posted
Dr. Winters, I read your post. But even before I read it I knew what was coming...Mande Magyars!!!
These Mande ubermensch seem to be everywhere. What impelled their many travels would you say? Perhaps, the hot climate? Was it perhaps a tad too draughty for them in Mandeland?
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Oh please. Not a single soul who watch those three films had a single racial thought about them. What about 101 Dalmations? They had black spots on a white dog. Maybe there was something sinister in that movie as well.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: Oh please. Not a single soul who watch those three films had a single racial thought about them. What about 101 Dalmations? They had black spots on a white dog. Maybe there was something sinister in that movie as well.
We're not saying they did. We're putting the books into context with history.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Calypso: Dr. Winters, I read your post. But even before I read it I knew what was coming...Mande Magyars!!!
These Mande ubermensch seem to be everywhere. What impelled their many travels would you say? Perhaps, the hot climate? Was it perhaps a tad too draughty for them in Mandeland?
I agree. You see, this is what I'm talking about...hyper-diffusionism. I guess to Clyde, the whole world was brought about by the Mande :roll: .
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Dr. Winters, I read your post. But even before I read it I knew what was coming...Mande Magyars!!!
These Mande ubermensch seem to be everywhere. What impelled their many travels would you say? Perhaps, the hot climate? Was it perhaps a tad too draughty for them in Mandeland?
You can't read. There is nothing in the webpage talking about the Magyar were Mande speakers. The Magyar claim they were Kushites. They speak Magyar.
I agree. You see, this is what I'm talking about...hyper-diffusionism. I guess to Clyde, the whole world was brought about by the Mande :roll: .
You don't know what you're talking about. The Magyar don't claim a Mande origin.
quote:
Dr. Vamos-Toth Bator has opened up the world to new knowledge about the toponyms and cultural traits that connected the ancient world civilizations. He has been able to use linguistic, anthropological and historical-toponymic evidence to vividly make us aware of Tamana culture.
The Hungarian people speak the Magyar language. Many researchers have assumed that the Magyar people only recently arrived in the Carpathian Basin from Asia. This is not necessarily true for all the Magyar.
The Magyar trace their origins back to ancient Nubia. The Arvisurak , an ancient book of the Magyar said that the name Uz was applied to the ancient Magyar, the largest tribe of the Black Huns .
Tibor Barath, has given a considerable amount of data which indicates that the Kushites from Nubia, played an important role in the formation of the Magyar. As a result we find that the Magyar/Hungarian language is closely related to African and Dravidian languages.
The Proto-Magyar were one of the many ethnic groups which formerly lived in the Fertile African Crescent. They offered prayers to *kan, e.g., Magyar kan, konyorog, Manding kani, and Dravidian ka-n. They also worshipped the god Amon, who they called Anya (Winters, 1986).
The name Maa is found in many Proto-Saharan ethnonyms. For example the Manding called themselves Ma-nde (the children of Ma), the Sumerians called themselves Mah-Gar-ri (exalted God's children), and the Magyar of ancient times referred to themselves as Muh-ger-ri , or Ma-ka-r (exalted children) (Winters,1986).
According to David MacRitchies the most ancient Uralic speakers were called czernii ugris or 'Black Ugris'. The Ugris were also called Hunni. The name Ugrian, is the origin for the word Hungarian. The Hungarians were also called Sabatocospali ,"the Blacks".
The Carpathian blacks arrived in the area in the 4th millennium B.C. The Tripolye culture dates from 3800 to 2100 B.C. The Tripolye culture was established in the Ukraine, Moldavia and Romania along the Siret River in the Ukraine.
The Tripolye people may have collected/cultivated barley, millet and wheat. They also had domesticated cattle, sheep-goats and pigs. As in Africa, their principle domesticate at this time was cattle .
During the middle Neolithic copper was being exploited in several mountainous regions of Europe. The center for copper mining in Europe was the Carpathian mountains. Many copper objects have been found on Tripolyean sites .
Many animal and human figurines have been found on Tripolyean sites. The Tripolye rotund ceramic female figurines are analogous to the rotund female figurines found in ancient Nubia.
It appears that for over a millennium the Linear Pottery and Cris farming groups practiced agriculture in the core region of Tripolyean culture. The middle Neolithic Tripolye people on the other hand are associated with cattle herding and mining.
These Mande ubermensch seem to be everywhere. What impelled their many travels would you say? Perhaps, the hot climate? Was it perhaps a tad too draughty for them in Mandeland?
The Mande speakers who settle Europe and Asia after 2500 BC went there in search of metals.
The Mande speakers who founded the Olmec civilization a thousand years later fled to the New World as a result desertification of the Sahara. They could not find homes in West Africa or Chad because these places were heavily settled at this time. They could not live in the Niger Valley because it was too heavily forested and full of illnesses.
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Dr. Winters wrote: There is nothing in the webpage talking about the Magyar were Mande speakers. The Magyar claim they were Kushites. They speak Magyar.
Got it Doctor: Magyars were Kushites!
Now, moving boldly forward. Greeks and other southern Europeans had myths and legends (probably with some basis in reality) that were not xenophobic or racist but to the contrary glorified in their relationship with people outside Europe. When did this change? Was it with Alexander the Great's conquest of Egypt?
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote: alTakruri wrote: Alexander was the prime proponent of miscegenation.
Hellenism (syncretism of Hellene with any and all non-Hellene cultures and individuals)is due to him.
But my understanding is that Alexandria was somewhat barred to native Egyptians. If this is true then the element of xenophobia was already in place. Perhaps the Ptolemies differed from Alexander as regards syncretism?
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Imperialists can be xenophobic and at the same time attempt to legitimize their morally bankrupt 'occupation' of a foreign, presumably in eyes of the folks of the land they "invaded" uninvited, through political means, which in the case of the Greeks, was to synchronize certain Egyptian deities and other cosmological elements with their own, while in other cases, this is done by the planting of a local 'proxy' administration of the imperialist. The former, that is, via religious synchronization, is relatively rare, being that Ancient Egypt was considered a father-like figure culture to the ancient Greek one.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote: Striking but true! For more than 100 years after Champollion was able to read and understand Egyptian Hieroglyphics, there was not a single Egyptian Egyptologist!
Egyptology is as much a Pan-European doctrine as it is a true science.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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I have it (perhaps incorrectly) that Alexander more or less encouraged his troops take wives from the conquered (to speed up integration of the various countries and ethnies of his vast transcontinental empire).
Alexander never as much as saw Alexandria because the city wasn't completed until after his demise.
My unsubstantiated feeling is that if Clitus Niger was indeed a dark African Alexander would have no Afrophobia/anti-blackism. That, coupled with the way he valued the oracle of Amon in Libya, leads me believe that when he designed the city forced segregation was not a consideration.
Alexander's empire was "inherited" by his top generals.
Relevant to our studies, Seleucos got the Levant and Mesopotamia. Ptolemy got Egypt and the two adjacent territories of eastern Libya and Sinai/Palestine.
At what point one of the Ptolemys introduced discrimination and segregation, if not from the beginning, I don't know but indeed they did even though initially the first Ptolemy did adapt certain elements of AE culture much of which his successors retained.
quote:Originally posted by Calypso: ]But my understanding is that Alexandria was somewhat barred to native Egyptians. If this is true then the element of xenophobia was already in place. Perhaps the Ptolemies differed from Alexander as regards syncretism?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: I mentioned awhile ago on the old Nile Valley forum LOTR's key mytho-elements of racial purity and whiteness, and the threat of the Blacks, the Arabs, the Asiatics....Hyenna riding, Elephant riding [channeling Hannibal?] enemies of "Middle Earth" {aka Euro-central?]
The whole 'return of the king' concept was about restoring Europes waning racial purity by mating the super-white heir to the throne Aragon [Aryan?] with Elves who are even whiter.
Also the the big speech about 'men of the west unite' during the climatic final battle all but drops pretense of anything other than a rallying of the whites against all of their potential enemies - Asiatic, African, Arabian, etc..
The point of this isn't to critique a particular book, but to understand the psychological roots of the racist discourse in history.
It is a comprehensively perverted world-view, which even Africanists can unconsciously succumb to, because we are subtly propagandised with it every day.
^I knew I wasn't the only one who was able to percieve all the above subliminal racist messages, practically all of my non-white friends as well as even some of my white friends were able to see them.
And yes the elephant and hyena riding Arabs couldn't be more blatant!
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: Oh please. Not a single soul who watch those three films had a single racial thought about them. What about 101 Dalmations? They had black spots on a white dog. Maybe there was something sinister in that movie as well.
LMAO Good ol' Hore was known to bring laughs some laughs to this board!
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Well, it only works if you believe in FANTASY stories as REAL history.
I wish that were true. Unfortunately the relationships are subliminal and devastating.
How many images of Africa have been shaped by Tarzan?
How many Black American Baptist churches worship the blonde, blue eyed image of Jesus?
How many so called Africanist continue the racial discourse rooted in the assumptive purity of the white race of Europe, and the assumed miscgenation of Africans and East Asians visa the European 'standard'?
This fantasy/ideology is reflected in the Sudan genocide....the Rwanda genocide, and the more self defeating discourses of so called Afro-centrism.
Hamites are as much a of myth has Hobbits.
The Middle East is as much of a false construct as Middle Earth.
Indeed, as can be seen by works from Winters even in this board.
The Tripolye culture is a Neolithic culture that developed in Eastern Europe. While we know the Neolithic is derived in Africa, we have no evidence of there being any actual "blacks in the Carpathians". Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Also, what are we to make of the new movie Eragon? Another film based on European myth only this time I see a black man in it-- a character played by the actor Djimon Hounsou. If you ask me it is just another Euro-fantasy war-adventure like LOTR except with a token black man! LOLPosts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Also, what are we to make of the new movie Eragon? Another film based on European myth only this time I see a black man in it-- a character played by the actor Djimon Hounsou. If you ask me it is just another Euro-fantasy war-adventure like LOTR except with a token black man! LOL
Not to mention one that takes a lot of inspiration for its plot from Star Wars. At least the dragon looked cool and had a sexy voice.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Calypso, actually it was not Alexander or the Ptolemies that barred Egyptians from going into Alexandria but actually the Romans. The Romans made it to where no Egyptian could enter Alexandria.
You can read about it in Egypt After the Pharaohs by Alan K Bowman and Egypt Under Roman Rule.
Greek intermarriage with local Egyptian women was common during the Greek occupation in Egypt.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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^ Yeah, some of that stuff in the book is, especially the first time you look at it.
I do like some stuff in the preface, CHAP.1 The Cress Theory of C.C., and also some of the points made in CH.24 Black Women Moving Towards the 21st Century.
I didn't read through all of it though, and yeah it is pretty weird.
quote: Ausar wrote: Calypso, actually it was not Alexander or the Ptolemies that barred Egyptians from going into Alexandria but actually the Romans. The Romans made it to where no Egyptian could enter Alexandria.
You can read about it in Egypt After the Pharaohs by Alan K Bowman and Egypt Under Roman Rule.
Greek intermarriage with local Egyptian women was common during the Greek occupation in Egypt.
Thanks for the info regarding Alexandria during Roman rule Ausar.
Was this policy, of excluding indigenes, extended to cities in other parts of the Roman empire, or was this policy unique to Alexandria?
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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I don't know if it's bout "Africa in European Mythmaking" I see more history of Christanity- A king who rise from the dead and defeats the death and evil from East (Mordor) a king who is tempted--but pass and much more.
Actually you will find devoted readers of Tolkien among Christians
Posts: 2198 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Calypso,I am not that familiar other provinces under the Roman empire but they probablly had a similar policy. Roman citizenship,to my knowledge, was only awarded to Roman born citizens.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Arwa: I see more history of Christanity- A king who rise from the dead and defeats the death and evil from East (Mordor)
The point about the return of the King - Aragon - is that he represents the purity of bloodline that has become deginerate over time.
It has nothing to do with Christianity, it has to do with racial purity.
Thus the resolution is to *mate* Aragon with the Elf [Arwin] [Elves in Tolkiens story are even purer and 'whiter' than 'men'] and so produce pure children. This is completely unlike the Jesus myth. Jesus must die to redeem human sins, and thus eschew earthly existence as a man. In contrast Aragon must take a wife, breed and restore racial purity defiled by denizens of Mordor [btw - mordor means: the Black Lands]. It is the same root as "moors".
Aryans vs. Moors. It's not even veiled.
Frankly the Aragon myth has less to do with Jesus, than with the NAZi's.
Lord of the Rings was written between the late 1930's and 1940's.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Septimius Severus, a North African probably of partial Poeni and mostly Amazigh ancestry, was a Roman emperor. So were other non-Italians.
quote:Originally posted by ausar: Calypso,I am not that familiar other provinces under the Roman empire but they probablly had a similar policy. Roman citizenship,to my knowledge, was only awarded to Roman born citizens.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Arwa: I see more history of Christanity- A king who rise from the dead and defeats the death and evil from East (Mordor)
Modor is stated by Tolkien to be East and South [Arabia and Africa] - ie the Moors. The Kingdom of Aragon is the West.
It's and interesting point of irony to note that in the Christian story, Christ is from the South and East, the evil in Christianity is represented by the Roman empire, ie - the West.
LOTR could never work as a Christ Story. Aragon is much more Ceaser than Jesus.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Tolkien draws inspirations from Anglo-Saxon, Icelandic saga, Nordic saga (Norse mythology) , Celtic saga, and Christanity---all mixed in one put.
All characters in LOTR you will find to possess some of these qualities. Just make a google "Tolkien Christanity"--more than 1.5 mio hits will appear.
Another author is C. S. Lewis--Narnia books-- and what these authors have in commen is Christanity.
I know some fanatic Christians (most of them hold university degree) and they claim Christanity plays a role in LOTR. I don't mean from A->Z, but you do have at the end Kindom on Earth, return of the King--who defeat the death by going to underworld.You have Denethor who refuses the King I like to continue this topic, see you soon
quote:Originally posted by Arwa: Tolkien draws inspirations from Anglo-Saxon, Icelandic saga, Nordic saga (Norse mythology) , Celtic saga, and Christanity---all mixed in one put.
I agree. But the narrative of LOTR is not the Christ narrative. Similarities are superficial, differences are fundamental, as noted in the prior post.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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I wish that were true. Unfortunately the relationships are subliminal and devastating.
How many images of Africa have been shaped by Tarzan?
How many Black American Baptist churches worship the blonde, blue eyed image of Jesus?
How many so called Africanist continue the racial discourse rooted in the assumptive purity of the white race of Europe, and the assumed miscgenation of Africans and East Asians visa the European 'standard'?
This fantasy/ideology is reflected in the Sudan genocide....the Rwanda genocide, and the more self defeating discourses of so called Afro-centrism.
Hamites are as much a of myth has Hobbits.
The Middle East is as much of a false construct as Middle Earth.
quote:The point about the return of the King - Aragon - is that he represents the purity of bloodline that has become deginerate over time.
It has nothing to do with Christianity, it has to do with racial purity.
Thus the resolution is to *mate* Aragon with the Elf [Arwin] [Elves in Tolkiens story are even purer and 'whiter' than 'men'] and so produce pure children. This is completely unlike the Jesus myth. Jesus must die to redeem human sins, and thus eschew earthly existence as a man. In contrast Aragon must take a wife, breed and restore racial purity defiled by denizens of Mordor [btw - mordor means: the Black Lands]. It is the same root as "moors".
Aryans vs. Moors. It's not even veiled.
Frankly the Aragon myth has less to do with Jesus, than with the NAZi's.
Lord of the Rings was written between the late 1930's and 1940's.
...
Modor is stated by Tolkien to be East and South [Arabia and Africa] - ie the Moors. The Kingdom of Aragon is the West.
It's and interesting point of irony to note that in the Christian story, Christ is from the South and East, the evil in Christianity is represented by the Roman empire, ie - the West.
LOTR could never work as a Christ Story. Aragon is much more Ceaser than Jesus.
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I don't see how this is inherently Christian. From the Greek mythos I can recall Orpheus and Persephone entering the underworld and returning. And though any names escape me, in Norse mythology some god or hero slips past the hellhound to enter the realm of the dead and return.
I don't know if Ausir was in an underworld and true Ausit never went there to get him though she did resurrect him at least long enough to sire Heru the younger.
Unfamiliarity with other peoples spirituality and mythology prevents me from giving even more pre Christian universal examples of the "defeat of death by returning from the underworld" but I'm sure they exist.
Peoples with seasons effecting perennials would have a natural aptitude for resurrection beliefs.
quote:Originally posted by Arwa: ... Christanity plays a role in LOTR. I don't mean from A->Z, but you do have ... return of the King--who defeat the death by going to underworld.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
^I must say that Arwa is correct about certain Christian themes in the trilogy. Of course Tolkien used mainly pagan myth especially that of Germanic myth in the story, he did throw in some Christian elements.
Also, are you aware that the Christian author and famous writer of the Chronicles of Narnia, C.S. Lewis was also a good friend of Tolkien and they exchanged alot of ideas?
But Rasol is still correct about associating demonizing the 'East' and 'South'. What I should point out though is the irony or paradox began after the 'West' adopted Christianity that they began associating Christ with themselves and demonizing peoples of the Near-East. Hence Jesus was no longer a Semite but was given 'Aryan' status while Jews and other Semites including Arabs are denigrated!
But speaking of LOTR mythos, did you know that Tolkien based the Elvish language off of ancient Finnish which is almost extinct and is now spoken by old Finnish shamans?
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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