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Author Topic: Abydos pharoanic images predate Qustul?
Oshun
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So I've been reading some discussions and apparently there's a debate about whether pharonic culture is distinctly Egyptian (and influenced Nubia) or if it's Nubian in origin. People were saying that Qustul was proof that pharonic culture began in Nubia, but then Abydos materials have been found predating it? I'm trying to see how that makes sense. I thought upper Egyptian peoples were Nubian related.

-Are people saying that Abydos had burial/cultural characteristics that could be found in "Nubian" societies of the same time period?

-I found said here on ES:
quote:

He himself states that there are MANY proto-egyptian style glyphs found in the A-Group cemetaries. Especially the pharoanic glyph found in front of the symbol for Ta-Seti. THAT says everything you need to see right there: Ta-Seti had the EARLIEST pharoanic style ruling elite PRIOR to that in Abydos OR Naquada...

What evidence and references can I read that suggest that glyphs came from Ta-Seti, including a pharoanic one?
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Itoli
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I read in an older thread that the Abydos findings were characteristically Nubian. I can't remember if the person who posited that expounded, but if that's the case then an Egyptian origin of Pharonic culture doesn't seem likely when we consider how far south Abydos is.
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Oshun
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quote:
Originally posted by Itoli:
I read in an older thread that the Abydos findings were characteristically Nubian.

If anyone has examples of this please share.
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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by Oshun:
So I've been reading some discussions and apparently there's a debate about whether pharonic culture is distinctly Egyptian (and influenced Nubia) or if it's Nubian in origin. People were saying that Qustul was proof that pharonic culture began in Nubia, but then Abydos materials have been found predating it? I'm trying to see how that makes sense. I thought upper Egyptian peoples were Nubian related.

-Are people saying that Abydos had burial/cultural characteristics that could be found in "Nubian" societies of the same time period?

-I found said here on ES:
quote:

He himself states that there are MANY proto-egyptian style glyphs found in the A-Group cemetaries. Especially the pharoanic glyph found in front of the symbol for Ta-Seti. THAT says everything you need to see right there: Ta-Seti had the EARLIEST pharoanic style ruling elite PRIOR to that in Abydos OR Naquada...

What evidence and references can I read that suggest that glyphs came from Ta-Seti, including a pharoanic one?
They are characteristically Nile Valley and related to other Nile Valley cultures like that of Ta Seti and the culture that created Nabta Playa and the desert Oases sites like Gilf Kebir. "Nubia" has nothing to do with it and just serves to distract from the fundamental point that ancient KMT was a development of Nile Valley with a relationship to other Nile Valley cultures. Prototypes of the heiroglyphs are seen in older rock art from the Sahara and Nile Valley.
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Oshun
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Sources please.
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the lioness,
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I am nit thoroughly convinced this incense burner is showing a Hedjet crown (the white crown) and that there was necessarily a king sitting wearing that crown where the missing fragment was.
The crown here is the size of his whole torso and the legs very small in proportion to it. It looks like a child's proportions
The shape next too it he thinks is a falcon but it is highly simplified so it's hard to tell

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Itoli
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[IMG]https://images2.imgbox.com/d8/49/fvHfuaS3_o.jpg[MG]

I am nit thoroughly convinced this incense burner is showing a Hedjet crown (the white crown) and that there was necessarily a king sitting wearing that crown where the missing fragment was.
The crown here is the size of his whole torso and the legs very small in proportion to it. It looks like a child's proportions
The shape next too it he thinks is a falcon but it is highly simplified so it's hard to tell

What do you think it is then? It looks like a seated person wearing the crown to me. I don't see how the size changes that because that can be due to the artistic choices of the artist to emphasize it for whatever reason (size was stylized in Egyptian and Nubian art to show importance/power, after all) to the artistic limitations of the artist, i.e. they were amateurs.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Itoli:

It looks like a seated person wearing the crown to me.


There is no seated person on that incense burner.

What you see highlighted in pink above is speculation as to what originally may have appeared in the missing fragment they never found.
That seated figure is what Bruce Williams thinks was there originally but he does not know what was there.


 -

^^this is what they found. Bruce Williams thinks that shape is a white crown

What they found is broken off under that. They don't have that piece and never did.

The seated figure on the other picture not this one is what Bruce Williams guesses is there.

Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUc6srVc8WY

Zion Lexx DEBUNKS Bro. Jabari’s assertions of the Qustul Incense Burner in Nubia


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^ this is the same side but turned a little. This was photographed later when they mounted the fragments in a stone-looking support that represents the complete shape of the incense burner. The smooth parts are the modern structure that the ancient pieces are set in. A lot is missing so this allows people to get a feel for the overall shape of the incense burner when it was
whole.

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Itoli
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Ah, gotcha
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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by Oshun:
Sources please.

Sources for which? The Qustul incense burner is widely documented and published and you should already be aware of it.

But outside of that there are numerous influences from along the Nile Valley prior to the development of "Egypt". Again, "Nubia" vs "Egypt" has nothing to do with it. They are simply "Nile Valley" cultural traits with a strong Saharan cultural influence as well. There was no "nubia" or "egypt" 6,000 years ago. Just like there was no "britain" and "france" 6000 years ago either.

Numerous books have been written on this in more recent times. The idea of a "Nubia" vs "Egypt" in prehistory is more baggage from the early 1900s in archaeology. A lot of scholars simply associate the cultural trends with Nile Valley and Saharan cultural complexes.

Some examples Wadi Kubbaniya, Nabta Playa, Qurta etc.


https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/11/pictures/121129-oldest-pharaoh-rock-art-egypt-science/

http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/discovering-the-artists-of-the-eastern-sahara

https://books.google.com/books?id=-zBwBwAAQBAJ&pg=PT190&lpg=PT190&dq=earliest+rock+art+nile+valley+discovery&source=bl&ots=KD6-HIK-yD&sig=h51FodFYhY_LxdjJkZ7FytSGmac&hl=en&sa=X&ved =0ahUKEwifuMOctY3YAhXBSd8KHQKtDDs4ChDoAQgoMAA#v=onepage&q=earliest%20rock%20art%20nile%20valley%20discovery&f=false

https://anthropology.net/2007/06/19/egyptian-palaeolithic-rock-art-found-at-qurta-kom-ombo/

https://www.heritagedaily.com/2011/11/nile-rock-art-is-at-least-15000-years-old/16419

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
There was no "nubia" or "egypt" 6,000 years ago.

The topic question pertains to pharoanic images, not predynastic
That is the dynastic period believed to have started approximately 3100 BC. That is 5117 years ago when there was a civilization called KMT, or "Egypt" in English which was a political entity separate from the other political entities in the region or as the Egyptians called them "nine bows"

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Oshun
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Actually the topic is about where geographically the first pharoanic imagery came from. Yes there was no "nubia" or "egypt" 6k years ago. However, the general idea that the imagery could appear geographically south of Egypt or within the lands that would be come Egypt can still be discussed. For those that are saying that "Nubia was Egypt" culturally (and/or that pharonic culture came from Nubia/Sudan to Egypt):

-Can you point to evidence that suggests predynastic Abydos (which has pharonic imagery before Qustul) was part of a cultural substratum that included locations south of the geographic locations that'd become pharonic Egypt?

-Can you point to any evidence south of the geographic locations that'd become pharonic Egypt that uses pharonic imagery before Abydos?

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the lioness,
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http://antiquity.ac.uk/projgall/hendrickx334/

The earliest representations of royal power in Egypt: the rock drawings of
Nag el-Hamdulab (Aswan)


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Figure 2: General view of site 7 with tableau 7a (Figure. 3) in the centre.


 -
Figure 6: Site 2, tableau 2a. On the upper boat, a king wearing the white crown stands in front of a Wepwaout standard (damaged by modern inscriptions).
Image 6 of 10

http://anthropology.msu.edu/anp363-ss14/files/2013/01/ant0861068.pdf


 -
On the upper boat, a king wearing the white crown stands in front of a Wepwaout standard (older photo before damage by modern inscriptions).


Mohamed El-Beyali, the general director of Aswan and Nubia monuments, said that the Nag El-Hamdulab cycle of images probably dates back to about 3200 BCE, corresponding to the late Naqada period.
about 5,200 years ago

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Oshun:
[QB] So I've been reading some discussions and apparently there's a debate about whether pharonic culture is distinctly Egyptian (and influenced Nubia) or if it's Nubian in origin. People were saying that Qustul was proof that pharonic culture began in Nubia, but then Abydos materials have been found predating it?

Doug put the link up, I put the photos up of the earliest representations of royal power in Egypt: the rock drawings of
Nag el-Hamdulab in Aswan.

What "Abydos materials " are you talking about? Where are your sources ?

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Oshun
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I thought that Abydos' materials were around 3300-3400 BC (http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=003538).

quote:
The earliest known examples of Egyptian royal iconography, such as, e.g., the representation of the Red Crown on a late Naqada I (c. 3500 BC) pottery vessel from Abydos or the triumphal scenes in the painting from Hierakonpolis Tomb 100 (c. 3400-3300 BC) are much older than the Qustul censer. It seems thus that it was the Qustul rulers who adopted symbols of royal authority developed in Egypt and not vice versa.
Török, László. Between Two Worlds : The Frontier Region Between Ancient Nubia and Egypt, 3700 BC-AD 500. In Probleme Der Ägyptologie. Leiden: Brill. 2009. ISBN 9789004171978

...What is the official date of the Abydos stuff they say predates Qustul? [Confused]

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Oshun:
I thought that Abydos' materials were around 3300-3400 BC (http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=003538).

quote:
The earliest known examples of Egyptian royal iconography, such as, e.g., the representation of the Red Crown on a late Naqada I (c. 3500 BC) pottery vessel from Abydos or the triumphal scenes in the painting from Hierakonpolis Tomb 100 (c. 3400-3300 BC) are much older than the Qustul censer. It seems thus that it was the Qustul rulers who adopted symbols of royal authority developed in Egypt and not vice versa.
Török, László. Between Two Worlds : The Frontier Region Between Ancient Nubia and Egypt, 3700 BC-AD 500. In Probleme Der Ägyptologie. Leiden: Brill. 2009. ISBN 9789004171978

...What is the official date of the Abydos stuff they say predates Qustul? [Confused]

All of the dating in this period is probably speculative to the extent of give or take a few hundred years

I don't have time now, you can look into it, Török's references 122 and 123

https://books.google.com/books?id=irbP2hHqDAwC&pg=PA43&lpg=PA43&dq=


Look those titles up, notes at the end of p 43 from 1993 and 1973

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