Some Images from Ancient Egyptian Art , with emphasis on the 19th dynasty:
Horemhab
Rameses 1
Text cover
Seti I
Face inlay of Seti 1
Noble couple
...
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Nice pics, got any more?
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Hear is some more pics of the 19th dynasty.
Merenptah, the 4th King of Egypt's 19th Dynasty
19th Dynasty ...
Nefertari's - 19th Dynasty Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
4th Dynasty
"The wife of a prince from the court of Memphis is one of the first clearly recognizable portraits of a black in the history of Egyptian art. Her broad nose and thick lips are clearly delineated in a limestone head of about 2600 B.C." - Frank Snowden, Before Color Prejudice, page 11.
"I have designated her a Nubian because I am one of the many scholars who have considered her features clearly Nubian, i.e., Negroid, not Egyptian." - Frank Snowden, Egypt in Africa, page 106.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Photograph of painted wall relief in the tomb of Ramesses III
Egypt in Africa, (1996), Theodore Clenko, editor -- article by Frank J. Yurco, page 110-111
Excerpt:
“When Egyptian statuary, wall reliefs, and painted scenes are viewed without selectivity, they show a population with various complexions, from light to dark brown, mirroring the diversity of the modern Egyptian population. That this was also so in antiquity is indicated by a statement in Sinuhe's autobiography: "as when a Delta man sees himself in Elephantine, a marsh man in Nubia," metaphors describing the broad ethnic and cultural differences within the country (Lichtheim 1973:225). This agrees with anthropological studies (Keita 1990; 1993) that demonstrate that African population is diverse. The Arab conquest of 639-642 A.D. did not alter significantly Egypt's population, which still remains very diverse (Batrawi 1945; 1946). The Islamization of the population came largely through religious conversion from Christianity although some ten percent of Egyptians remain Christian. This modern population still echoes Nile Valley diversity, where people of the lightest and darkest complexions within Africa are found (Trigger 1978; Yurco 1989). Nonetheless, these Nilotic populations are all Africans, so was the population, religion, culture, and other aspects of pharaonic Egypt (Frankfort 1948). It is quite correct that many early Egyptologists tried to detach Egypt from its African context, as Asante posits in this section, and that this partly reflects racist thinking of earlier eras. Yet, some of the effort to see foreign influence on late Predynastic Egypt was based upon archaeological finds and the early interpretation of them. Current scholarship in Egyptology not acknowledged often by Afrocentrists, has demonstrated that Egyptians were most closely related to Saharan Africans, culturally and linguistically (Hoffman 1991), that such Mesopotamian influence as can be inferred, came through the Nile Delta town of Buto, as part of long-distance trade. Whatever foreign ideas and cultural item were adopted, they were speedily Egyptianized, and they probably did not include writing or its concept (see Yurco essay in the African Origins of Egyptian Writing section). Egypt made early contact with its Nubian neighbors on its southern boundary. After the unification in about 3100 B.C., a distinct Egyptian state emerged (Hoffman, 1991).
Thenceforth, Egyptians called their country Kemet and themselves Rmt. All foreigners were called by distinctive names and portrayed with distinctive dress. Nubian, first call Nhsy(Fisher 1961), were depicted darker, with frizzy hair, and wore a distinctive dress. Later, other groups were encountered in Nubia, for example, Mdja, and viewed as distinct from the Nhsy.”
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Amenhotep III, the Ninth King of Egypt's 18th Dynasty
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
More Amenhotep III 18th dynasty Tuthmosis III 18th Dynasty,1504-1450 BC
[ 04. May 2007, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: Horus_Den_1 ]
Posted by Pax Dahomensis (Member # 9851) on :
I remember reading that the two pictures above respectively represent Thutmose III and Amenhotep III(along with his wife Tiyi), not the contrary.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger: Photograph of painted wall relief in the tomb of Ramesses III
Egypt in Africa, (1996), Theodore Clenko, editor -- article by Frank J. Yurco, page 110-111
Shame on Frank Yurco for his dishonest contribution to Egypt in Africa.
The above article by Yurco is FLAWED and even DISHONEST, and here is why:
Egyptologist Dr. Frank Yurco is one such person that completely misrepresents the "Table of Nations" scene in the Ramses III tomb. In a 1996 article on the Ramses III tomb reliefs, Yurco makes a number of false statements as he conveniently overlooks the actual tomb evidence.[3]
1. Yurco claims that the Sethe/Lepsius edition "is indeed a pastiche and not at all what actually is on the wall in Ramses III's tomb reliefs. ...Accordingly, all claims based upon the 1913 pastiche...rest upon a nineteenth to early twentieth century copy that is not correct!"
Yurco misrepresents the work of Sethe/Lepsius and does not explain that they simply reduced the scene from 16 figures to 4 figures, and that the image of each group of men and the accompanying texts are condensed but that the reproduction is otherwise ACCURATE, as the actual tomb photographs indicate. Yurco conveniently shows only 2 members per group and does not show ALL FOUR members of the Egyptian or Nubian groups -> IN ORDER TO OMIT THEIR NAME.
2. Yurco compounds his error by claiming that the "Ramses III reliefs are *exactly* like the Sety I wall reliefs." [emphasis added].
This statement is completely false. From Yurco's own photographs of the two tombs, the Ramses III and Seti I wall reliefs of the four "Table of Nations" groups are obviously different. In each case the appearance and attire of the four groups are shown differently in the two tombs. Not only are there different ethnic groups in the B and D position, but the Egyptians and Nubians are also portrayed markedly different. In fact, several of the groups in the Seti I tomb reliefs are not even wearing shirts! Anyone can compare the images in the two tombs and see that not only are the Ramses III and Seti I scenes obviously different, but that Yurco is openly making false statements. Notice the undeniable contrast between the Seti tomb images (fig. 5-6) and the Ramses III tomb images (fig. 4). - Professor Manu Ampim.
I pronounce thee Nubian, and so...non Egyptian! ->
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger: Egypt's 18th Dynasty
^^"I have designated [him] a Nubian because I am one of the many scholars who have considered [his] features clearly Nubian, not Egyptian." Frank Snowden.
^ such blatant arrogance in support of racism.
More Frank Snowden "Nubians/not Egyptians":
1st Dynasty: Abydos.
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
Some Egyptian princesses
Real-world view
Anok Ang Kame.t, EnEn Anok Deshre.t! Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
Does anybody have any images of the following tomb scenes:
1. Fowling in the Marshes[I think from the Tomb of Nebamun or Nakht]
2. Picture of Sennefer[mayor of Waset]
3. Female mourning scene in the tomb of Ramose
4. Tomb scene of men moving furniture in the tomb of Ramose
If anybody has these then please post them.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Fowling in the Marshes
Sennefer
tomb of Ramose Female mourning and men moving furniture
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
quote:Originally posted by ausar: Does anybody have any images of the following tomb scenes:
1. Fowling in the Marshes[I think from the Tomb of Nebamun or Nakht]
2. Picture of Sennefer[mayor of Waset]
3. Female mourning scene in the tomb of Ramose
4. Tomb scene of men moving furniture in the tomb of Ramose
If anybody has these then please post them.
I found some photos for you Ausar. It was fun looking for them.
The Prince is the son of King Ramses II & Queen Nefertari, and the grandson of the Pharaoh Seti I.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Khnumhotep II was Overseer of the Eastern Desert, a title granted in Year 19 of the reign of the Pharaoh Amenemhet II, about 1910 B.C., 12th dynasty
The tomb of Khnumhotep II is cut deep into the eastern cliffs that border the Nile at Beni Hassan
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
Thanks Myra and King for posting the pictures. Know the so-called Nubian reserve head was labeled the female wife of the tomb owner. Currently the MET has proposed that such reserve head was not actually the wife of the owener but a male Egyptian[not a Nubian] that had similarities with other 4th dyansty kings. Over 32 reserve heads date from this period.
Reserve Head of a Man. Giza; Fourth Dynasty, probably reign of Khufu (ca. 2551?2528 B.C.E.). Limestone; H. 11 7/8 in. (30 cm). Museum of Fine Arts, Boston, Harvard University?Museum of Fine Arts Expedition (14.719).
Although each reserve head has characteristics that make it unique, this example stands out from the group. It is one of the largest and is the most perfectly preserved, exhibiting none of the intentional damage found on others. Excavated in a shaft with another head, this one was originally identified as the Nubian wife of the tomb owner. Recent study, however, suggests that it probably represents the male owner of the tomb. Although the face has affinities with later depictions of Nubians, it also bears a striking resemblance to statues of Fourth Dynasty kings and undoubtedly represents an Egyptian. The variations among reserve heads probably reflect the diversity in Egypt's population. Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger:
The tomb of Khnumhotep II is cut deep into the eastern cliffs that border the Nile at Beni Hassan
If I'm not mistaken, in the background, is yet another example of 'black-tone' representation of Egyptian royal service men.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
quote:Originally posted by Supercar: If I'm not mistaken, in the background, is yet another example of 'black-tone' representation of Egyptian royal service men.
YES!
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
Priestly ceremony
Herdsmen
Servents pulling boat
Statue of Horemakhet
Osiris
Kememu woman Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Tomb of King Horemheb - 18th Dynasty
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
Fellaheen/Peasants
Farmers
Pharaoh
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
Djoser (Djosre ?)
Amenemhat III
Libyan captive
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wally: Libyan
Tehenu Berber?
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
I think this individual is Tehenu...Ausar would probably have a more definitive answer...
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
Osiri Anu (Osiris): Great Ancestor Father of the Kememu
Isi Anu (Isis): Great Ancestor Mother of the Kememu
quote: Osiris: The Egyptians, like so many modern African peoples, worshiped the spirits of their ancestors, and that early in the Dynastic Period, Osiris became the great ancestor of all Egypt, and was worshiped as such. The cult of the ancestor spirit is common all over Africa and its existence seems not to be incompatible with a belief in God, the Creator of the World and all in it.
...The figure of Osiris brought with it the help, protection, and support of the father-god, and it was to the Egyptian exactly what the ancestral-spirit figure is to the African today.
Isis: She was the wife of Osiris, and if Osiris was the great father ancestor, she was, of necessity, the great mother ancestress. The legends which exist in Egyptian texts tell us how the goddess, after she had conceived Horus, retired to the swamps of the Delta, and how being quite alone there, she brought him forth.
In this, as in many other respects, tradition regarded Isis as an African woman, and preferably a woman from the Sudan, for she brought forth her son as Sudani women bring forth their children.
-- EW Budge
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
12th dynasty
Amenemhet I, 1st King, 12th Dynasty
King Senwosret 12th Dynasty
Nubian
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
Tehenu Berber?
The features look like it-- looking rather Egyptian (still black).
It must be remembered that the Egyptians recognized 2 main groups living in the Western Deserts. The Tjemehu who lived in the southern part of the Western desert across from Upper Egypt, and the Tehenu who lived in the northern part West of the Delta.
Because the Tjemehu lived to the south, these people are described in some sources as 'Nubian'.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
The Northerners are likely related to the modern Siwa Berber.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING:
Funny how this scribe is paraded around by Eurocentrics and white supremacists because of his 'fair' color and features.
Yet notice that the true dark color of the statue has been conveniently worn off but could still be seen on the knees and legs and edges of the statue.
Also, are his features really not African?
Compare to the very black man in the green shirt
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
The Libyan captive depicted is unfortunately a black and white photo so I cannot really tell by the apperance. Tehennu were usually depicted in a dark brownish apperance with sometimes a pointed beard and a penis sheath. I believe the book The Eastern Libyans by Oric Bates has some pictures of the following. If you can find this book thought inter-library loan or some other means.
The fair skin tamahou type does not really appear untill around the New Kingdom.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
The TMHHW first appear in a 6th dynasty text by the merchant noble Harkhuf. But true I can't recall any painted illustrations of them until the 19th dynasty. The amazing thing is the Tjemehu are first located far south on the west bank of the Nile in Yam yet are mostly creamy coloured (with or without cafe) in New Kingdom paintings.
Tamehou might have become generic in the latter times with Meshwesh and other farther west and nearer the Mediterranean "westerners" falling under that designation.
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by KING:
Funny how this scribe is paraded around by Eurocentrics and white supremacists because of his 'fair' color and features.
Yet notice that the true dark color of the statue has been conveniently worn off but could still be seen on the knees and legs and edges of the statue.
Indeed.
Pseudoscience often contradicts itself, even in its own terms. - Rory Coker, Ph.D
"Narrow" nasal index of the figure is masqueraded as a "Caucasian" feature [another pseudo-logic notion], along with the thin lips, while the actual tone of the figure [which apparently doesn't fit into the "Caucasion" ideology] is ignored.
quote:Djehuti: Also, are his features really not African?
Compare to the very black man in the green shirt
Pseudo-science: They not only provide no evidence that their claims are true. They also ignore all findings that contradict their conclusions. - Rory Coker
...and:
Pseudoscientists often attempt to imitate the jargon of scientific and technical fields by spouting gibberish that sounds scientific and technical.
...of which, someone like Evil Euro for instance, provided a classic example!
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Tomb of Neferrenpet-Kenro, TT178.
From the time of King Tuthmosis III, 18th Dynasty
From right to left, they are: Mutemwia (his wife) and Neferrenpet, then Piay (his father) and Wiay (his mother).
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Niankhpepi the Black, 6th Dynasty
Cairo Antiquities Museum
Material: Painted Wood Size: Height: 36.5 cm Location: Meir, Tomb of Niankhpepi the Black (A 1) Excavation: Antiquities Service Excavations of 1894 Period: 6th Dynasty, Reign of Pepi I (2289-2255 BC)
Niankhpepi the Black was the "Supervisor of Upper Egpt" and "Chancellor of the King of Lower Egypt".
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Material: Papyrus Size: Height 37 cm; Length: 450 cm Location: Western Thebes, Deir el-Bahri Cache (TT 320) Excavation: Antiquities Service Excavations of 1881 Period: 21st Dynasty reign of Pinudjem I (About 1065-1045 BC)
Discovered in the famous Deir el-Bahri Cache, this is part of the Book of the Dead belonging to Pinudjem I.
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger: Niankhpepi the Black, 6th Dynasty
Cairo Antiquities Museum
Material: Painted Wood Size: Height: 36.5 cm Location: Meir, Tomb of Niankhpepi the Black (A 1) Excavation: Antiquities Service Excavations of 1894 Period: 6th Dynasty, Reign of Pepi I (2289-2255 BC)
Niankhpepi the Black was the "Supervisor of Upper Egpt" and "Chancellor of the King of Lower Egypt".
We must be careful; vigilent! The entire 6th dynasty was Black, so why would we accept this "Niakhepepi the Black" nonsense. Do you have the glyph for this person's name? In the Mdu Ntr "Niakhepepi the Black" would be written "Km Ni Akhe pepi"; thus, "ni Akhe pepi kem" would mean "the last NiAkhepepi" or "niAkhepepi the last(one)!" Let us not accept these devious terms; let us look at the writings...
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^^Yes Wally, your translation seems to make more sense.
Not only is the 6th dynasty (like all Egyptian dynasties) black, but if one were to go the Eurocentric route and claim that the Egyptians weren't black, then by claiming that Niankhpepi was black would mean that he isn't Egyptian but 'Nubian'! Yet is there any proof that the guy was 'Nubian' and not Egyptian?!!
Anyway, all the depictions of him look no different from other ancient Egyptians, so what gives with this "the black" stuff??
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
The Identification of the Eighteenth Dynasty Royal Mummies; A Biological Perspective James E. Harris and Fawzia Hussien National Research Center, Cairo, Egypt lnternafional Journal of Osteoarchaeology, Vol 1: pp.235-239
Quote:
"Thutmose I has all those craniofacial characters common to the Nubian people, i.e. skeletal-dental-alveolar prognathism."
Akheperkare Thutmose I (d. 1492 BC; sometimes spelled Thutmosis or Tuthmose) was the third Pharaoh of the 18th dynasty of Egypt. He ruled Egypt from 1504 BC until his death in 1492 BC. He was the father of the Pharaohs Thutmose II and Hatshepsut, and was the first king to be buried in the Valley of the Kings (tombs KV20 and KV38).
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Siptah:
Tawsert/Sethnakht
Akhenaten/Nefertiti:
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Random Images:
Old Kingdom: This is a period from which many statues are HEAVILY damaged, which gives rise to claims of "distortion" by Egyptologists since they dont differentiate between the ORIGINAL INTENDED colors versus the decayed damaged colors. Often the decayed damaged colors seem to be passed off as the original colors. Most of these statues were originally painted medium/dark brown. HOwever, after decay many only retain a REDDISH residue after the original paint wears away (reddish brown paint will do this). On the other hand the yellow color is still maintained even in the residue.
[ 04. May 2007, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: Horus_Den_1 ]
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
Ethiopian beauty and...
Kememou beauties.
My Favorite Beja Girl! Closest relatives to the people of Kemet...
[ 04. May 2007, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: Horus_Den_1 ]
Posted by Horus_Den_1 (Member # 12222) on :
Let's stay professional and enrich this interesting topic with more info & images about Ancient Egyptian art
I will not do another Hrs long clean up of 80/90 off-topic replies so if it sinks to it's previous level then it will stay locked!
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by Horus_Den_1: Let's stay professional and enrich this interesting topic with more info & images about Ancient Egyptian art
I will not do another Hrs long clean up of 80/90 off-topic replies so if it sinks to it's previous level then it will stay locked!
Yes, let us post new and more info & images about Ancient Egyptian art - only. please...
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
King Seti I
ancient Egyptian Funerary Art
...the living and the dead...
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
Bes, the Dwarf god or really a Twa?
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wally: Bes, the Dwarf god or really a Twa?
A Modern Theory of Language Evolution, by Carl J. Becker, 2004, pp. 164 & 167:
In Tanzania lie Lake Victoria, the Ngorongoro Crater and the Olduvai Gorge where the oldest known remains of the human species have been found. The north-south line of lakes, Albert, Ruranzige, Kivu, and Tanganyika, make the eastern edge of the Ituri Forest in Congo. The Efe Pygmies who live on the Ituri Forest called the Towering massif of Ruwenzori Baba Tiba, the Mountains of the Moon. In Efe theology the first man ascended to the heavens after serving as a benevolent governor of the primordial Pygmy nation. He then established residence on the moon where he still assists God by serving as the angel-of-the-moon. For tropical Black Africa the moon was, and still is, the favorite object of veneration, not the sun.
Egyptian texts from around 2500 BC refer to the Pygmies as little men from the land of trees and spirits at the foot of the Mountains of the Moon. Egyptian king Nefrikare sent an expedition into central Africa and it returned with a dancing dwarf known as Akka. In the pyramid text of the sixth-dynasty monarch Pepi I it is declared that, "He who is between the thighs of Nut is the Pygmy who danceth like the god and who pleaseth the heart of the god before his great throne." Nut was the goddess of heaven and the mother of Osiris. This Pygmy was called Bes.
Page 167:
We see, therefore, that it is physiology and genetics that tell us where our earliest ancestors came from; paleontology can only tell us where they went. Geneticist Douglas Wallace believes that Homo sapiens sapiens is descended from the ancestors of Baka Bambuke pygmies. Steven M. Stanley a paleontologist at Johns Hopkins supposes that hominids were forced out of the jungle environment by the cooler and drier climate of Earth by 2.5 millions years ago. Lucy's group was probably part of this group. This would have been an Australopithecine version of the Twa Pygmies who live in the same general area around Lake Kivu on the eastern side of the Mountains of the Moon. The Twa have acclimated to life outside the Ituri Forest and are smiths, potters, and jack-of-all trades.
-----------------
The Akka
That this race is an exceedingly ancient one is proved by the fact that Egyptologist Marriette Bey has discovered on a tomb of the ancient Empire of Egypt a figure of a dwarf with the name Akka inscribed by it. [Source]
.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wally: King Seti I
ancient Egyptian Funerary Art
...the living and the dead...
Interesting image of golden-funerial imagery, contrasted with living persons.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger: Egyptian texts from around 2500 BC refer to the Pygmies as little men from the land of trees and spirits at the foot of the Mountains of the Moon. Egyptian king Nefrikare sent an expedition into central Africa and it returned with a dancing dwarf known as Akka.
Statute of the Dwarf Perniankhu - 2500 BC, probably the reign of Khafre
Hidden Treasures of Ancient Egypt, by Zahi Hawass, p. 151 (2004):
"Perniankhu is clearly here as a dwarf, a diagnosis that was confirmed by the discovery of his skeleton in a burial shaft below the superstructure of his tomb. Dwarves were not uncommon in ancient Egypt and were often held in high esteem. Dwarves also participated in funeral dances and were closely associated with the sun god."
.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
STATUE OF RANEFEREF Painted limestone Dynasty 5, reign of Raneferef Abusir, Mortuary temple of Raneferef Excavations of Miroslav Verner, 1984
Hidden Treasures of Ancient Egypt, by Zahi Hawass, p. 132 (2004):
Abusir, which lies six miles south of Giza, was the burial ground for the kings of the 5th dynasty. Miroslav Verner, the Czech team has identified an unfinished pyramid at Abusir as the tomb of Raneferef, a short-lived king of the 5th dynasty about whom little is known. Their work has enabled them to clarify the history of this shadowy period. Raneferef came to the throne in about 2419 B.C. He began construction on his pyramid, just a few meters southwest of his father's complex, but only the first step of the core was completed before his sudden death only three years later. The mummy was examined, and the age of the young king at his death was found to be 22 or 23. The Horus hawk stands on the throne back behind Raneferef's head, ready to lift him to heaven. The well-preserved stone of this statue has retained much of its original paint, giving the modern viewer an excellent sense of its ancient appearance.
.
Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
I have some pics of Tehenu from BATES at home. I'll scan and post them tomorrow.
quote:Originally posted by ausar: The Libyan captive depicted is unfortunately a black and white photo so I cannot really tell by the apperance. Tehennu were usually depicted in a dark brownish apperance with sometimes a pointed beard and a penis sheath. I believe the book The Eastern Libyans by Oric Bates has some pictures of the following. If you can find this book thought inter-library loan or some other means.
The fair skin tamahou type does not really appear untill around the New Kingdom.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Seti I
.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
King Sahure 5th Dynasty (2458-2446 B.C.) Metropolitan Museum of Art.
.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I think Bes was Twa but most Kemmemou never seeing a Denq dancer of the neteru depicted him as a dwarf the closest living example they were familiar with.
quote:Originally posted by Wally: Bes, the Dwarf god or really a Twa?
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Late Period, after 600 BC
.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Middle Kingdom, about 2040-1750 BC
6th Dynasty, around 2200 BC Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
Pics of Thnw according to BATES : Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
^Do you feel there is any difference between the Tehenu and the Tamahou?
Posted by Yom (Member # 11256) on :
Al-Takruri,
quote:I think Bes was Twa but most Kemmemou never seeing a Denq dancer of the neteru depicted him as a dwarf the closest living example they were familiar with.
Is it dng or dnq? In Amharic the word for a dwarf is "dink", and Kitchen states that the word was "dng," connecting it to the Amharic word.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Weren't there any painted depictions of Tehenu that show them to have the same brown complexion as the Egyptians?
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
To a certain extent g q and k are interchangeable as far as glyphing a sound that may or may not be part of the language using the glyphs.
For instance the number one man of Libya, is he * Ghadafi, * Qadhafi, * Khadafi ?
quote:Originally posted by Yom: Al-Takruri,
quote:... a Denq dancer of the neteru ...
Is it dng or dnq? In Amharic the word for a dwarf is "dink", and Kitchen states that the word was "dng," connecting it to the Amharic word.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Weren't there any painted depictions of Tehenu that show them to have the same brown complexion as the Egyptians?
Yes there are, but they are hard to locate/link on the web.
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: ^Do you feel there is any difference between the Tehenu and the Tamahou?
...keep in mind that most people continue to make the mistake of not translating the Mdu Ntr words for these ethnic groups into their exact meanings; which I think leads to confusion; add nauseum...
Namou Sho > Nam=traveler - ou=people - Sho=sands; "people who travel the sands" - Nomads who are pictorially shown to be Asiatic.
Tamh > hematite; ochre; reddish > Tamhou Red ones - What today we refer to as White people.
Tehenn = "sparkling", "dazzling", "Egyptian Faience (an opaque glaze, usually strong greenish blue)" Tehennu = "sparkling or dazzling or bright blue ones/people"; portrayed pictorially as Blacks
and so on and so forth.
It's all explained by the Mdu Ntr...
Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
Sorry moderator if it's off-topic.
I'm pretty sure I have seen the first pic labeled as a Lebu somewhere so I'm not sure BATES is correct about it depicting a Tehenu.
Physically, the other pics posted above seem to depict Black African people to me as well as to BATES who labelled them as "negroids".
The New Kingdom Tamahu also don't look like those Tehenu from Sahure's tomb IMO, who look much like Ancient Egyptians (courtesy of a Berber activist site):
Socially & culturally the Egyptians seem to have had a different perception of those two people, the Tehenu having being referred early as Hatyu "princes", while Temehu never had been considered positively by Egyptians to my knowledge.
Senegalese Egyptologist Babacar SALL also laid down the hypothesises that Tehenu were most likely farmers and Temehu nomads.
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: ^Do you feel there is any difference between the Tehenu and the Tamahou?
Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
Senegalese Egyptologist Aboubacry Moussa LAM also pointed out the resemblances between Pulaar dingaa, dengkii "shorty" and Egyptian d3ng & Amharic denk.
quote:Originally posted by Yom: Al-Takruri,
quote:I think Bes was Twa but most Kemmemou never seeing a Denq dancer of the neteru depicted him as a dwarf the closest living example they were familiar with.
Is it dng or dnq? In Amharic the word for a dwarf is "dink", and Kitchen states that the word was "dng," connecting it to the Amharic word.
Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
Djehuti:
Weren't those types of headbands worn by some of the Tehenu above you noticed on Asiatics, Puntites & Neteret and that you hypothetically attributed to a common cultural origin?
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
Sorry moderator if it's off-topic.
I'm pretty sure I have seen the first pic labeled as a Lebu somewhere so I'm not sure BATES is correct about it depicting a Tehenu.
Physically, the other pics posted above seem to depict Black African people to me as well as to BATES who labelled them as "negroids".
The New Kingdom Tamahu also don't look like those Tehenu from Sahure's tomb IMO, who look much like Ancient Egyptians (courtesy of a Berber activist site)...
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: ^Do you feel there is any difference between the Tehenu and the Tamahou?
Which is why I asked the question cited!
Ps - Any possibility that the pictures you posted earlier can be rotated, so that the remaining pictures are the right way up as the first?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: Djehuti:
Weren't those types of headbands worn by some of the Tehenu above you noticed on Asiatics, Puntites & Neteret and that you hypothetically attributed to a common cultural origin?
Yes. The headbands or "fillets" as scholars call them are not only depicted Semitic speaking Asiatics, Libyans, and Puntites but are also shown being worn by the Egyptians themselves.
And since the same type of headbands are still worn to this day by various peoples in the Horn from Ethiopia to Somalia, I would only surmise that this accessory is of common Afrasian origin.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Egyptian artwork should probably called the white racist's nightmare considering the blatant African depictions!
I take it that those same people who claim the Egyptians weren't black have seen very little Egyptian art!
I remember a thread years ago we posted a picture of a New Kingdom funerary wall painting, to which the silly troll Hore said something like "you should go digging in Nubia for more stuff like that". He actually thought the depiction of all those black people were "Nubians"! LOL Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
From various locations:
Medinet Habu:
Deir el Bahri:
Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: Djehuti:
Weren't those types of headbands worn by some of the Tehenu above you noticed on Asiatics, Puntites & Neteret and that you hypothetically attributed to a common cultural origin?
Yes. The headbands or "fillets" as scholars call them are not only depicted Semitic speaking Asiatics, Libyans, and Puntites but are also shown being worn by the Egyptians themselves .
And since the same type of headbands are still worn to this day by various peoples in the Horn from Ethiopia to Somalia, I would only surmise that this accessory is of common Afrasian origin.
What other Egyptians than the Neterut were shown to wear these headbands?
Also, what do you think is the common significance of this item among these people cited above?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^I'm surprised you think only the Neter were depicted with headbands, as there are numerous examples of Egyptian commoners wearing such items from wall paintings to statuary.
The only example I could think of at the moment is in Tut's tomb paintings.
As for the significance of it, I have no clue! I have to do research on the significance of it in the modern cultures of people who wear it for me to get even an idea of what it meant to the Egyptians. I can say I have seen people like the Afar wear it during special occasions.
Perhaps Yom or someone else from the Horn region who is familiar with such adornments could help us out.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Ibumped up some "Libyan" threads but this one Tehenu Ancient Black Libyans (clickable link) is on lockdown. Maybe some moderator will de-weed and unlock it or failing that just bump it up for quick review since it's a current topic.
Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
Djehuti:
Actually, since those "fillets" are arguably some of the most banal headdresses worldwide and that I have seen them worn by many Egyptians and various Non-"Afrasian" African people I didn't think the Neteret were the only Egyptians to be depicted wearing it. It is just that I remember you associating it with Egyptian Goddesses along with Asiatic women and Puntites in an old thread.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
^^ Sorry Mystery Solver hadn't seen your request. I'll try to rotate the pics.
Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
Thanks for the pics Djehuti, I didn't doubt there are pics of AE wearing the fillet as I have one of an OK or MK official from SCHÄFER's Principles of Egyptian Art at home.
Some of the other Africans who wear it are Betammaribe people from Northern Benin and Mina from Togo/Benin (I've seen pics of ritual dances).
I don't think their use is related to that of the people cited above since it is a very common ornament and I thought you claimed a common origin for them because their significance and use was the same.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^That's the problem-- I don't know what the Kemetians thought of the 'fillets' let alone what the significance is to them.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Description: Paying respect to Akhenaten. Painted sandstone, from Karnak. Cairo Museum, Egypt.
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Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
The two first characters from the left are Asiatics, right? If yes, may their different hairstyles refer to their belonging to different ethnic groups?
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
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Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Amarna Period
Limestone scene representing the daughter of Akhenaten. Brooklyn Museum of Art, New York.
Sandstone and painted image of Nefertiti dating to the first 5 regnal years of Amenhotep IV/Akhenaten's reign from Karnak. Brooklyn Museum of Art, New York.
Painted limestone scene of a man carrying a talatat block. Brooklyn Museum of Art, New York.
Painted limestone scene of musicians from Amarna and it was excavated in 1935. Brooklyn Museum of Art, New York.
Limestone relief of two soldiers, dating to the Amarna period. Fitzwilliam Museum, Cambridge.
Sandstone relief of soldiers, dating to the Amarna period. Fitzwilliam Museum, Cambridge.
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Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Queen Tiye
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Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Painted limestone relief showing two Princesses shaking sistrums. Excavated from a chapel called the 'Weben Ateb' at the Great Temple in Amarna in 1932. Brooklyn Museum of Art, New York.
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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Is that small wooden figurine really that of Tiye or one of her daughters or granddaughters?
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Is that small wooden figurine really that of Tiye or one of her daughters or granddaughters?
Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York. They said it's Tiye.
An important tomb for information concerning how ancient monumental construction was performed, but not widely published on the web, partly because it was heavily damaged by coptic christians.
Glazed tiles from Medinet Habu. Medinet Habu was the mortuary temple of Ramesses III and is located on the west bank opposite Thebes. They represent the neighbours of Egypt. They are Nubian, Philistine, Amorite, Syrian and Mitani.
Nubian
Philistine
Amorite
Syrian
Mitani
Ramesses III
.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Much thanks for the detailed zooms of the faience tiles!!!
Does anyone see a strong resemblance in the Mitanni and "Libyan" (not shown above) profile facial features?
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Why is it that out of all these images and names that conjure up specific people and places, only the jet black African is given a name which has no meaning or identity? What does NUBIAN mean in this context? I doubt that the Egyptians actually used this term and probably gave something more descriptive than that. As opposed to the others who have a specific geographical frame of reference, where is the territory of this "nubian"? Was he from the 1st cataract? 2nd cataract? 3rd cataract? 4th or 5th cataract? Further south?
Rameses III and the famous tableu of the "races" from his tomb:
More from Rameses III tomb:
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Much thanks for the detailed zooms of the faience tiles!!!
Does anyone see a strong resemblance in the Mitanni and "Libyan" (not shown above) profile facial features?
Yes, but could this not be due to coincidence as such a phenotype can be found in other areas like southern Europe, Western Asia, and perhaps Central Asia.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Why is it that out of all these images and names that conjure up specific people and places, only the jet black African is given a name which has no meaning or identity? What does NUBIAN mean in this context? I doubt that the Egyptians actually used this term and probably gave something more descriptive than that. As opposed to the others who have a specific geographical frame of reference, where is the territory of this "nubian"? Was he from the 1st cataract? 2nd cataract? 3rd cataract? 4th or 5th cataract? Further south?
Come now, Doug. We are all too familiar with the 'Nubian' label and its uses by Western scholars.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
More of Rameses III tomb walls
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Much thanks for the detailed zooms of the faience tiles!!!
Does anyone see a strong resemblance in the Mitanni and "Libyan" (not shown above) profile facial features?
Yes, but could this not be due to coincidence as such a phenotype can be found in other areas like southern Europe, Western Asia, and perhaps Central Asia.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Why is it that out of all these images and names that conjure up specific people and places, only the jet black African is given a name which has no meaning or identity? What does NUBIAN mean in this context? I doubt that the Egyptians actually used this term and probably gave something more descriptive than that. As opposed to the others who have a specific geographical frame of reference, where is the territory of this "nubian"? Was he from the 1st cataract? 2nd cataract? 3rd cataract? 4th or 5th cataract? Further south?
Come now, Doug. We are all too familiar with the 'Nubian' label and its uses by Western scholars.
But it wasnt a western scholar that posted it. Somebody took the time to research these images and identify them with various ACTUAL peoples and nationalities from the time EXCEPT for the one of the black "Nubian", meaning WHAT LABEL did the Egyptians use for this guy? Was he a Kushite? Kushite being much more likely as it ACTUALLY EXISTED than a non existent entity called "Nubia".
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: As opposed to the others who have a specific geographical frame of reference, where is the territory of this "nubian"? Was he from the 1st cataract? 2nd cataract? 3rd cataract? 4th or 5th cataract? Further south?
20th Dynasty, Ramesses III (1184-1153 BC)
At this time there are recorded ties to southern Nubia, as far south as the fort of Buhen, that lies just north of the Second Cataract on the Nile River. The local military power, which was neither the Hyksos nor the Kings of Thebes, but the King of Kush. A family covering five generations left inscriptions at Buhen and these show that the last two generations served the King of Kush. The Kushites captured Buhen during the 13th dynasty, and held it until Ahmose I recaptured it at the beginning of the 18th dynasty. It was stormed and recaptured by Kushites forces at the end of Egypt's 20th dynasty.
Over a period of nearly 2000 years, the fortifications seem to have been occupied by a succession of different cultures (Egyptians, Kushites, and the Meroitic peoples) without the need for major reconstruction.
The erection of the Aswan High Dam in 1964 has fully submerged Buhen, and all the other monuments along this stretch of the Nile River, under Lake Nasser.
Source:
The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt, by Ian Shaw (2003) .
Posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh* (Member # 13372) on :
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger: Boston Museum
Glazed tiles from Medinet Habu. Medinet Habu was the mortuary temple of Ramesses III and is located on the west bank opposite Thebes. They represent the neighbours of Egypt. They are Nubian, Philistine, Amorite, Syrian and Mitani.
Nubian
Philistine
Amorite
Syrian
Mitani
Ramesses III
.
I don't think that image for Mitanni is true. That actually looks like a Libyan mulatto. Mitanni were blond haired blue eyed peoples/
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: As opposed to the others who have a specific geographical frame of reference, where is the territory of this "nubian"? Was he from the 1st cataract? 2nd cataract? 3rd cataract? 4th or 5th cataract? Further south?
20th Dynasty, Ramesses III (1184-1153 BC)
At this time there are recorded ties to southern Nubia, as far south as the fort of Buhen, that lies just north of the Second Cataract on the Nile River. The local military power, which was neither the Hyksos nor the Kings of Thebes, but the King of Kush. A family covering five generations left inscriptions at Buhen and these show that the last two generations served the King of Kush. The Kushites captured Buhen during the 13th dynasty, and held it until Ahmose I recaptured it at the beginning of the 18th dynasty. It was stormed and recaptured by Kushites forces at the end of Egypt's 20th dynasty.
Over a period of nearly 2000 years, the fortifications seem to have been occupied by a succession of different cultures (Egyptians, Kushites, and the Meroitic peoples) without the need for major reconstruction.
The erection of the Aswan High Dam in 1964 has fully submerged Buhen, and all the other monuments along this stretch of the Nile River, under Lake Nasser.
Source:
The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt, by Ian Shaw (2003) .
So this guy was a kushite then? As there was no nubia and because the Egyptians nor the people in question used the term, you should understand why I am asking for something more meaningful than a modern label that has been applied to them by foreigners. Something like Kushite or Meroite has more meaning context and is of greater historical value than "nubian".
Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
Ptolemaic or New Kingdom sculpture from the Delta area. New York, The Metropolitan Museum of Art
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
So this guy was a Kushite then?
As there was no Nubia and because the Egyptians nor the people in question used the term, you should understand why I am asking for something more meaningful than a modern label that has been applied to them by foreigners. Something like Kushite or Meroite has more meaning context and is of greater historical value han "Nubian".
This is correct. I like when authors use Kushite and Meroite, but we have to be aware that there were other groups also. The modern names of the Pan Grave and A-C Group cultures which names are just as bad. Academically, this is a very lazy way of identifying culture groups.
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Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger:
This is correct. I like when authors use Kushite and Meroite, but we have to be aware that there were other groups also. The modern names of the Pan Grave and A-C Group cultures which names are just as bad. Academically, this is a very lazy way of identifying culture groups.
It could be laziness, lack of sufficient knowledge on the complexity of the Nile Valley regions in question or both, and/or it could be purposeful; the latter would require generalized non-indigenous and possibly non-historic typological terms to apply to a region(s), where intra-variation and/or possible inter-affinity within and between [respectively] the typological constructs become concealed, while inter-variation between the types are pronounced.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Although I can't help but to think this 'laziness' was in part due to the fact that these cultures lay to the south of Egypt.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
^^Absolutely. It was also based on a preconceived notion that the South had no history of any significance in its own right. Therefore Egypt and its development HAD to be a separate achievement from other African cultures. This is why no research was done in the South, especially to show any advanced culture could have existed there prior to Egypt, let alone influenced Egypt in any way. All the current research is showing exactly the opposite trend, that the developments along the Nile in Egypt were precisely a result of developments in social organization, kingship and cosmology from further South and West. This is consistent with the fact that modern humans have been living and developing cultures along the Nile longer than most any other place on the planet, with the Nile being a DIRECT connection to the ancestral homeland of human beings in Africa.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
A tomb from the first intermediate period, which is not often found widely published:
so djehuti what's so damn significant about this tomb?
Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger: Late Period, after 600 BC
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Is it just me or Bes strikingly resembles American boxer James TONEY in this pic: Posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh* (Member # 13372) on :
^^^^^Dayum lol, he really DOES look like Bes. That's kind of spooky.
Hell, Khasekhemwy looks like Brah-man from the Martin show lol, and Narmer looks like Tek from that rap group Smyth and Wesson and lil Dap from Group Home.
Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
Ptolemaic or New Kingdom sculpture from the Delta area. New York, The Metropolitan Museum of Art
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
Kushite Statue Old Kingdom, Sixth Dynasty, 2300 BC New York, Metropolitan Museum of Art
This statue was excavated at Elkab, south of Luxor and belongs to a certain "royal acquaintance and high priest Nefershemem." Both the inscriptions and the archaeological context date it to the late old kingdom. The proportions of the limbs and highly schematic modeling of arm and leg musculature, along with the inclined face and small forehead, resemble features from the Kushite Period.
Photo and text from Sudan Ancient Kingdoms of the Nile, Dietrich Wildung, p. 47
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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18: so djehuti what's so damn significant about this tomb?
It was Doug who posted pics of the tomb not I.
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger: Late Period, after 600 BC
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Is it just me or Bes strikingly resembles American boxer James TONEY in this pic:
Not to me. Bes statue has larger eyes, more prominent eyebrows and the lips and nose are closer together.
quote:Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*: ^^^^^Dayum lol, he really DOES look like Bes. That's kind of spooky.
Hell, Khasekhemwy looks like Brah-man from the Martin show lol, and Narmer looks like Tek from that rap group Smyth and Wesson and lil Dap from Group Home.
I don't know about all of that but I think Djoser looks like 50 cent except the nostrils aren't as wide and of course the ears.
Posted by Tyrannosaurus (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Egyptian artwork should probably called the white racist's nightmare considering the blatant African depictions!
I take it that those same people who claim the Egyptians weren't black have seen very little Egyptian art!
I remember a thread years ago we posted a picture of a New Kingdom funerary wall painting, to which the silly troll Hore said something like "you should go digging in Nubia for more stuff like that". He actually thought the depiction of all those black people were "Nubians"! LOL
To be honest, in my experience people come to different conclusions about this when looking at artwork. I've met both people who were convinced that Egyptian artwork depicted black people and people who use artwork as evidence AGAINST the Black Egypt argument. Artwork is notoriously subject to varying personal interpretations.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ I agree Tyranno, for the following reason(s):
* Art is subjective.
** This facilitates the ability of people to see what they want to see.
Modern Europeans have a whole history of twisted vanities where they create delusional images of themselves and of others.
If it flatters their vanity, they well see themselves as Africans, [Ancient Egyptians] as Indians [native americans and India/Indian such as Ben Kingsley = Gandhi], as Japanese [Tom Cruise is the last Samurai], or whatever they envy, admire or lust after.
The above isn't trivial.
One of the rationale enabled by the defunct caucazoid race definition, which is given a polygenic [more than one] origin, in Europe, Asia, Africa, and sometimes Polynesia, is that Europeans may thus attribute to themselves all the civilisations of the world by *racial* affinity.
That these civilisations were supposedly created by the 'caucasoid race' at a time when Europeans were uniformly savage is held in the Eurocentric duplicitous psyche as a form of irony, and argumentative "difficulty", as opposed to the desparate lunacy it actually is.
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
Some Kushite art/reality...
Below, a very large Kushite Queen; non-Nilotic or east African type and more southern African, wouldn't you say?
A Kushite Queen...
...all of them Kememou/Kemetou, of course
quote: Translation, for newbies: ...all of them Ancient Egyptians, of course
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Seem familiar?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LOL A universal human notion of high and pomp.(?)
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ I agree Tyranno, for the following reason(s):
* Art is subjective.
** This facilitates the ability of people to see what they want to see.
Modern Europeans have a whole history of twisted vanities where they create delusional images of themselves and of others.
If it flatters their vanity, they well see themselves as Africans, [Ancient Egyptians] as Indians [native americans and India/Indian such as Ben Kingsley = Gandhi], as Japanese [Tom Cruise is the last Samurai], or whatever they envy, admire or lust after.
The above isn't trivial.
One of the rationale enabled by the defunct caucazoid race definition, which is given a polygenic [more than one] origin, in Europe, Asia, Africa, and sometimes Polynesia, is that Europeans may thus attribute to themselves all the civilisations of the world by *racial* affinity.
That these civilisations were supposedly created by the 'caucasoid race' at a time when Europeans were uniformly savage is held in the Eurocentric duplicitous psyche as a form of irony, and argumentative "difficulty", as opposed to the desparate lunacy it actually is.
That may well be, but when you have tomb paintings showing the Egyptian people in their obvious dark brown (black) coloring or even those depicting stereotypical features like round noses and full lips etc. and Eurocentrics still call these "caucasians", would that not border on psychosis??
quote:Originally posted by Wally: Below, a very large Kushite Queen; non-Nilotic or east African type and more southern African, wouldn't you say?
Wally, what about the Candace above makes her "non-Nilotic", or how is Nilotic not an east African type. Or how is she "southern African"??
Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
^^ I think that the politically influential woman's stoutness feature is more often associated with the Central/Southern part of the continent than in East Africa nowadays in many people's mind. Don't know how accurate is this assumption though.
Senegalese Egyptologist Babacar SALL also pointed out the existence of this feature in Saharan art as well as in Predynastic Egypt, and the only depiction of the Puntite Queen seems to show it as well.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Yes, but would the depiction of the Puntite Queen as well as modern day East African women of afluence who are also plump in shape refute the notion that such is associated with 'southern' African types only?
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Yes, but would the depiction of the Puntite Queen as well as modern day East African women of afluence who are also plump in shape refute the notion that such is associated with 'southern' African types only?
I believe the [Midogbe's] point was that it is not an uncommon feature in many African societies, and hence Midogbe writes:
Senegalese Egyptologist Babacar SALL also pointed out the existence of this feature in Saharan art as well as in Predynastic Egypt, and the only depiction of the Puntite Queen seems to show it as well.
The keywords being 'as well'.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
Seem familiar?
Actually, many of you missed the point.
ONE derives from THE OTHER:
1) Symbols of state, ie fans, rings, poles, jewels crowns and wide dress.
2) Wide flared dress as a sign of power, authority and beauty. One is real and the other is similac.
The point I was making is the symolic and literal apparatus of state for European royal women traces directly back to Africa. Also, the symbolism of Europeans conquering the black globe is ALSO part of the tradition of European royal portraiture. The Europeans understood this symbolism so well that they made extra effort to steal them from the Africans: obelisks, benin bronzes and other artifacts were all PURPOSELY obtained by military conquest as symbolizing their DOMINATION of the black globe, symbolically and literally. This allows them to REP about beatdowns on Africans as part of their prestige and heraldry. Therfore, using the symbolism of chess, the queen becomes the most powerful figure on the board, making moves and taking over under her right to rule, forcing all vanquished foes (blacks) to kneel at her feet (Queen of England).
quote: Djehuti wrote: Wally, what about the Candace above makes her "non-Nilotic", or how is Nilotic not an east African type. Or how is she "southern African"??
Djehuti, This may seem difficult to explain to someone who's not African but is simple in fact; as an African (American), I can descern immediately the various physical distinctions amongst my own people. I can know immediately if a Black person that I meet is from Somalia, Nigeria, or Zimbabwe; and I am certain that I am not the only Black person on the planet with this ability. The type portrayed of the Kandakas (Candaces) on the murals of Kush, show a specific African type, a type that is found most often amongst the Shona, Ndebele, etc. women of southern Africa. Now, while this type can be found amongst ALL Black populations, it is the exception rather than the rule. The typical Masai woman or the typical Wolof woman doesn't exhibit this image, whereas the typical Ndebele woman does.
Some Ndebele women ...and these Ndebele are some FINE women!!
Some of the prettiest Black women I have known are from South Africa...This is, I guess, a good example for the argument that Africans should write African history... Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Tomb of Pairy from reign of Amenhotep III:
Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
Some Roman depictions of Neteru: I-II century AD depiction of Anubis:
Bes, from the same period:
Pompei's painting of Isis & Osiris:
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: [QB] Some Roman depictions of Neteru: I-II century AD depiction of Anubis:
^ The reason why such composite or hybrid statues of gods that featured animal heads were mocked and poked fun at by the Greeks is that they simply did not understand the concept of totemism. In Greek mythology like almost all Indo-European myths, the gods were strictly anthropomorphic or human in form. In Greek myth the only beings with animal heads were demons or monsters like the minotaur; although the latter creatures may have likely been deities in their own right during more ancient times. Interestingly the only Indo-European speaking people who do worship totemic zoomorphic deities are in India which may be a vestige of earlier religions.
Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
a Roman Horus: Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Tomb of Horemheb The Valley of the Kings:
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger:
Kushite Statue Old Kingdom, Sixth Dynasty, 2300 BC New York, Metropolitan Museum of Art
This statue was excavated at Elkab, south of Luxor and belongs to a certain "royal acquaintance and high priest Nefershemem." Both the inscriptions and the archaeological context date it to the late old kingdom. The proportions of the limbs and highly schematic modeling of arm and leg musculature, along with the inclined face and small forehead, resemble features from the Kushite Period.
Photo and text from Sudan Ancient Kingdoms of the Nile, Dietrich Wildung, p. 47
.
However, also note that this is purely an Egyptian from the 6th dynasty and not a Kushite from the 25th.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Another new kingdom tomb, Rameses VII: (KV1)
Weret Hekau, the winged serpent, who represents heka(magic) and is the serpent on the crown of Egypt:
Old picture from outside temple of Ramses III at Medinet Habu: Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Tomb of Paheri ():
Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
Some Greco-Roman period "Fayum portraits":
Posted by Yonis (Member # 7684) on :
Were these portraits of the ptolemy rulers or the average Egyptian? They look very similar to modern egyptians, and dynastic egypt didn't end that far behind the ptolemy rule. These portraits either crushes the notion of nordic like greeks, or tropical like Egyptians. But i think it portraits the Greeks going by their clothes and stature.
Posted by Yonis (Member # 7684) on :
More portraits from Fayum during Greco-roman period.
This boy looks extremly modern egyptian
Another typical Cairo phenotype
I personally believe now that modern lower Egyptians are more heavily mixed with greeks and romans rather than arabs, going by this well done portraits.
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
^I realize this is a personal belief, and understand it within that context, but on a substantive basis, it wouldn't be so according to this:
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Well those were Greco Roman portraits of Greco Roman Egyptians. What do you expect? Likewise, Ausar himself has said here in the past that up to 2 million Greeks occupied Alexandria at one point. That is a substantial number of foreigners in Egypt if it is true. Either way
This:
is not that
by any stretch of the imagination.
The latter existed at least 1,000 years prior to the former, which makes one irrelevant to the other.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
A rare tomb from the early 18th dynasty, from the reign of Amenhotep I.
Note that during this period many of the people still wore "afro" style wigs with plaits.
Tomb of Renni:
(Note the archways and gardens in this image of an Egyptian house as well as the overhead blue print style of the house lay out)
In fact, these tombs ARE the blueprint for civilization.....
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: ^I realize this is a personal belief, and understand it within that context, but on a substantive basis, it wouldn't be so according to this:
Ok, is it possible that it's on the maternal side then? Since according to other sources lower egypt had a considerable amount of greco-roman settlers especially in the oasis, they can't all just have moved back. Also greeks carry a good amount of e3b so maybe that's why it's hard to diffirentiate?
Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
Hawara, Roman Period mummy footcase, UC 28118
Base of cartonnage foot case showing two bound captives. By their colouring, the person on the left might represent a Syrian as one type of northern foreigner, while the figure on the right might represent a Greek or Roman. date: early Roman Period
Does anyone know why this site assumes the right character to be a Roman captive? Do we have other representations of Roman captives in Roman Egyptian (!) art?
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis:
Ok, is it possible that it's on the maternal side then? Since according to other sources lower egypt had a considerable amount of greco-roman settlers especially in the oasis, they can't all just have moved back. Also greeks carry a good amount of e3b so maybe that's why it's hard to diffirentiate?
Egyptians carry little of the M78 'clusters' prevalent in Asian minor, and Europe. They carry northeast African derivatives, not to mention undifferentiated and older M78 lineages. This is according to Cruciani et al. 2007
Posted by Tyrannosaurus (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
Hawara, Roman Period mummy footcase, UC 28118
Base of cartonnage foot case showing two bound captives. By their colouring, the person on the left might represent a Syrian as one type of northern foreigner, while the figure on the right might represent a Greek or Roman. date: early Roman Period
Does anyone know why this site assumes the right character to be a Roman captive?
Maybe the webmaster believes the Romans were black.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Here is another shot of the architectural tradition of Egypt that often gets overlooked (arches/archways):
Middle Kingdom artwork from tomb of Djehutyhotep:
Hunting scenes (with obvious similarities to such scenes from the sahara):
Men with bows and what looks like an ancient chain link fence (it is called a net on the site):
Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye (one of a few throne paintings that have been badly damaged but were once in fairly good condition when Europeans started researching):
quote:Originally posted by Yonis: Were these portraits (Greco-Roman) of the ptolemy rulers or the average Egyptian? They look very similar to modern egyptians, and dynastic egypt didn't end that far behind the ptolemy rule.
Neither. The Faiyum portraits represent the children of Greek nobility and other wealthy Greek families who intermarried with native Egyptians. The Ptolemies themselves did NOT mix with natives but on the contrary tried very much to keep their Greek lineages 'pure' from any foreign blood, going so far as committing incest. And of course these portraits were not of "average" Egyptians either, since most Egyptians were neither that wealthy nor mixed with the Greek colonists who were still a small minority.
quote:These portraits either crushes the notion of nordic like greeks, or tropical like Egyptians. But i think it portraits the Greeks going by their clothes and stature.
LOL I believe the Greeks' own artwork and portraits (in Greece proper) as well as they themselves crush the silly notion of "nordic" Greeks. Also, Egyptians are indigenous Africans with Egypt itself being in the subtropics. So I don't know how the notion of Egyptians being tropically adapted (black) Africans can ever be crushed.
^ Two average Egyptian boys.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
From the tomb of Nefersekheru from 18th dynasty reign of Amenhotep I:
Red, White and Blue theme from the early Eighteenth dynasty.
(note the multi color belt, almost gucci like on the one diety in the upper right register)
Text from the chamber attaching the spirit or soul of the deceased with the eternal life force:
quote: Isis, the great, the God's mother, Hornedjheritef, Anubis, before the hall of the gods, Imiut, Lord of the sacred land, the Great Ennead, the small annead So that they give: transfiguration in the heavens through Re, power on Earth through Geb, An offerings to the dead for the transfiguration before the Lords of Eternity A going out and coming in at the necropolis, that he is not rejected at the two doors of the Duat, For the Ka of the Osiris, scribe of the treasury, Nefersekheru, justified. ..... An offering which the king gives to: Osiris, First of the West, the Great God, Ruler of the living, Isis, the Great, the God's mother, Mistress of Heaven, Mistress of the Two Lands, Anubis, Lord of the cavernous openings, Imiut, Lord of the exalted land. So that they may be transfigured in the heavens through Re, have power on Earth through Geb, and justification through the great god. For the Ka of the Osiris, the deputy administrator of the treasury of the Lord of the Two Lands in the southern city [Thebes], Nefersekheru, justified, the worthy. .... [An offering which the king gives to Osiris, First of the West, Wennefer,] the Lord of the Sacred land, the Great God, Ruler of Abydos, the Ruler in the Necropolis, the great in Busiris, the eldest in [Heracleopolis], who is in the tomb hills, the First of the horizon. Who is with the atef-crown, who came from his mothers body, whose body the uraeus snake decorates, the Ba with the secret face in his Ennead of gods, who is in the hills of the western-mountains, the Lord of Praise, to whom obeisance is made. One kisses the earth at the place where he is, the Lord of embodiment with numerous manifestations, from his thought everything, which is, arose. ... missing section ... May you grant that I am in the entourage of your Ka, that I am associated with your praises and that I accompany those who are transfigured, that I survive in peace, as they survive; the Osiris, scribe of the divine offering of all the gods, Nefersekheru. .... An offering, which the king gives to Atum, Lord of the Two Lands, the One of Heliopolis, Ptah-Sokar, who is in the Sektit ("the evening barque of the sun"), Nefertem-Horhekenu, and all gods of the necropolis. May they give: a blessed spirit in the heavens, power on Earth, and justification to me.<br> So that I may sit like they sit and stand like they stand. So that my name is known like one of them, like the beautiful transfigured ones in the necropolis. For the Ka of the Osiris, the real scribe of the king, whom he prefers, the deputy administrator of the treasury of the Lord of the Two Lands of the city ("Thebes"), Nefersekheru, justified. Through his beloved sister, the chantress of Amun, Nefertiri, justified in peace.
quote:LOL I believe the Greeks' own artwork and portraits (in Greece proper) as well as they themselves crush the silly notion of "nordic" Greeks. Also, Egyptians are indigenous Africans with Egypt itself being in the subtropics. So I don't know how the notion of Egyptians being tropically adapted (black) Africans can ever be crushed
I guess it would have to be 'crushed' based on doubtfull art interpretation from the Ptolemiac era, since we know based upon anthropology that pre dynastic and dynastic kmt were tropically adapted and the Ptolemiac era 'royal' [imposters] are not representative of them.
Ok, back to the picture show.... Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Doug, keep it up. You're on a roll! Posted by nur23_you55ouf (Member # 10191) on :
Great thread that deserves a bump.
What do skeptics of a black afican egypt/eurocentrists dismiss such portrayals as? Inconsistent paintings?! Mixed egyptians?!
The evidence is ridiculously right in front of them...Is denial even an option anymore?
I see nothing ambiguous, as far as how they portrayed themselves.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Racism as a powerful ideology--once it has taken hold of the mind--can take on the symptoms of and is frighteningly akin to that of a mental disorder, in that reality or the interpretation thereof becomes eskewed.
Thus, when Petrie noticed the "negroid" features of certain queens he came to the conclusion that Pharoahs married women of a "lower" type.
When white explorers came across the remains of advanced cultures or civilizations in 'Sub-Sahara', they automatically assumed them to be work of foreigners like Phoenicians or even Egyptians (who were thought to be "caucasians"). Even when no such evidence supports such a thing and all of the available evidence points to the opposite-- that the native peoples were responsible.
It is because of such sensless irrationality that I and others agree that racism is a mental disorder. People like Horemheb are ones who suffer from it, and places in the net like "Racial Reality", "Stormfront", "American Rennaisance" etc. are the unofficial nuthouses of people who suffer from such.
And the same is true for non-white racists, even black ones like Clyde Winters and his followers (Marc Washington, Lord, etc.) who mimic the same bias and illogical modus operandi as the white racists he goes against, when he ignores all valid linguistic data and writes (makes up) his own or distorts genetic evidence all to make up the 'history' or his fantasies in which blacks created civilization everywhere in the globe, including Europe and white people did not appear until the Middle Ages just appearing out of nowhere and displacing (eradicating?) the true black indigenees of Europe. And I assume this was the case with East Asia (China) and the Americas.
Again, racism is a mental disorder! Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Egyptian/Matakam (Cameroon), from NDIGI (1997) Posted by Agluza (Member # 14023) on :
Bantu and OK AEgyptian official, from PFOUMA 1993: Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Interesting picture, Agluza.
Posted by Agluza (Member # 14023) on :
The inner Africans using mortars aren't labelled as Matakam, my bad.
From PFOUMA (2000); NK Egypt/West African Simbo:
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^
Posted by Agluza (Member # 14023) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wally: Bes, the Dwarf god or really a Twa?
German Africanist Leo FROBENIUS compared depictions of Bes with those pics from the Mezzak:
Posted by Agluza (Member # 14023) on :
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: Thanks for the pics Djehuti, I didn't doubt there are pics of AE wearing the fillet as I have one of an OK or MK official from SCHÄFER's Principles of Egyptian Art at home.
Some of the other Africans who wear it are Betammaribe people from Northern Benin and Mina from Togo/Benin (I've seen pics of ritual dances).
I don't think their use is related to that of the people cited above since it is a very common ornament and I thought you claimed a common origin for them because their significance and use was the same.
Posted by Agluza (Member # 14023) on :
NK tomb depiction of "Syrians" paying tribute:
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Got the rest of it where the little girl is offered too?
Posted by Agluza (Member # 14023) on :
^^ Nope...Could you please describe us the scene or direct us to a reference dealing with it?
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
Looking at all these comparative images, can there be any doubt about the "Africanity" of Kemetic culture?! LOL.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Got the rest of it where the little girl is offered too?
LOL I've seen the part with the little girl, but how do you know that she was part of the offering?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: Looking at all these comparative images, can there be any doubt about the "Africanity" of Kemetic culture?! LOL.
Of course not!
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Iirc it's just the continuation of the very scene you posted.
quote:Originally posted by Agluza: ^^ Nope...Could you please describe us the scene or direct us to a reference dealing with it?
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
From the tomb of Sebekhotep who was Thutmose IV's (1400-1390 BCE) senior treasurer. Posted by Agluza (Member # 14023) on :
Thanks Djehuti & alTakruri for the pics.
Matakam (North Cameroon)fertility dance/Egypt from PFOUMA (2000) Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Agluza, could you please explain the details of those renditions of Egyptian art depicting rows of dancers?
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Racism as a powerful ideology--once it has taken hold of the mind--can take on the symptoms of and is frighteningly akin to that of a mental disorder, in that reality or the interpretation thereof becomes eskewed...
"We repudiate and condemn all forms of racialism, for racialism not only injuries those against whom it is used, but warps and perverts the very people who preach and project it."
Kwame Nkrumah, speech of welcome at Accra, Conference of Independent African States, 15 April 1958
Posted by Agluza (Member # 14023) on :
Djehuti: I don't have the PFOUMA'S book at hand, so I don't know.
By the way, the fillet was called sSd in Egyptian whose internal Egyptian etymology goes back to "to bind, to tie", so I guess we won't know its symbolic meaning from internal Egyptian etymology alone.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
This one, more so than some other threads deserves a sticky. Or better yet, why not a sticky thread indexing urls to posts devoted to authentic self-depicting AE art?
Posted by Ebony Allen (Member # 12771) on :
I don't understand how whites and Arabs could possibly think the ancient Egyptians were white or Arab just lookkng at these paintings, figures, and sarcophagi. It makes no sense. They just need to give it up already.
Posted by Ebony Allen (Member # 12771) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Racism as a powerful ideology--once it has taken hold of the mind--can take on the symptoms of and is frighteningly akin to that of a mental disorder, in that reality or the interpretation thereof becomes eskewed.
Thus, when Petrie noticed the "negroid" features of certain queens he came to the conclusion that Pharoahs married women of a "lower" type.
When white explorers came across the remains of advanced cultures or civilizations in 'Sub-Sahara', they automatically assumed them to be work of foreigners like Phoenicians or even Egyptians (who were thought to be "caucasians"). Even when no such evidence supports such a thing and all of the available evidence points to the opposite-- that the native peoples were responsible.
It is because of such sensless irrationality that I and others agree that racism is a mental disorder. People like Horemheb are ones who suffer from it, and places in the net like "Racial Reality", "Stormfront", "American Rennaisance" etc. are the unofficial nuthouses of people who suffer from such.
And the same is true for non-white racists, even black ones like Clyde Winters and his followers (Marc Washington, Lord, etc.) who mimic the same bias and illogical modus operandi as the white racists he goes against, when he ignores all valid linguistic data and writes (makes up) his own or distorts genetic evidence all to make up the 'history' or his fantasies in which blacks created civilization everywhere in the globe, including Europe and white people did not appear until the Middle Ages just appearing out of nowhere and displacing (eradicating?) the true black indigenees of Europe. And I assume this was the case with East Asia (China) and the Americas.
Again, racism is a mental disorder!
Some actually believe white Phoenicians taughtthe Ife people of West Africa to smelt iron and metals for the bronze work.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Two completel different techniques to produce iron. One African metal science even produces carbon steel at least a millenium before it was done on anywhere else.
^ Doug, where did you get all these great pics??
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
I got them from flickr. There are a ton of Egyptian images under the Egyptian art set and many of them were added fairly recently. It seems a few of them are trying to get a comprehensive collection of Egyptian art from various museums onto the web.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Where is White Nord and Celts when you need them.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Yes, where oh where are Glider's red-headed cacasoid Egyptians?
All I see is beautiful northeast African art featuring black people.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Some of the images like those on the tomb of Userhat where the skin is dark are unmistakably black. But when the skin color begins to wear, suddenly to the eurocentric they are not even any longer misinterpreted as white meds, but BLOND NORDS! The interesting thing is the blond hair, seems no different from what the wigs or dyed hair Kushites wore.
Note how he is embracing Min, symbolizing the seed of the earth and mankind in front of the symbols of authority, including a royal standard of the palace (castle) as well as all the other trappings: jeweled belt, wig, uraeus and so forth. All of this underneath the sign for the cross roads, the symbol of the state itself as a political entity.
Seshat Netr of counting holding a notched reed, showing the legacy of the shango bone and the ceremonial use of notched sticks as symbols of royal lifespans in Africa. Such types of staffs can be seen in other cultures in Africa, decorated with notches, shells, beads or other ways of counting.
Pharaoh (hatshepsut?) striding in front of Min. She holds a t square, symbolizing the role of the King in propagating the seed of life, in terms of measuring land plots for agriculture, the origin of geometry (earth measure).
Images from the Lieden Museum (European museums have SO MUCH of Egypt's history it is ridiculous spread among museums and private collections big and small, it is a crime the amount of THEFT):
Mentuhotep II:
Image of a man with a 'fro:
Some images of DARK BLACK Egyptians from old kingdom reliefs (which were quite common in some mastabas):
quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): The AEs, in their art are nice too :
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): More AE art:
And I notice the men's/boy's garb looks about familiar, another pic from Loango we have:
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): Some things I notice about Egyptian art in general including all of the above photos (except the first AE man I posted and perhaps a few in the smaller resolution pics I posted):
is that the ancient Egyptians seem to love wearing white, and either shaved their heads or wore wigs.
Ex:
And most people get fooled into thinking it's real hair.
Especially on this pic!:
^^NOT REAL HAIR!! A head piece!
But that's understandable, unlike the time someone that one phaoroh's tall bright yellow head piece was his hair! (can't find the pic unfortunately)
Don't know about this Princess, though:
Oh yeah, and my method of telling
I'm not psychic: you can tell when it's their real hair by looking for their ears. If you can see them, then it may not be a wig.
Also use common sense: these guys show their ears, but their obviously wearing headdresses.
LOL .. you know what, I'll try and find some pictures of folks who don't fit these standards ... they don't wear white, they show their hair...etc.
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): best I could do:
Ramses here isn't in white:
Neither is Imhotep:
...
This girl shows her real hair:
.
.
and so does this guy:
.
.
And these guys! (older workers TL - there's nudity)
No traditional clothe in Egyptian martial arts training:
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): You may also notice that the man is placed before the women, with respect to the direction they're facing.
..In Mdu Ntr...
Is it because behind every great man, there's simply a woman? Is it sexist?
Is this always the case??
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger: From the artist point of view it illustrates that Kemet wasn't a sexist society.
.
...but most of the time, you'll find, Kemetians had things in order. (just joking, women in front of men is just fine)
btw, if one is observant, one will notice that some of the people (quite a few) in the above pictures show their ears, which contradicts nothing I've said earlier.
It's just likely they were showin their real hair, like these ladies:
and unlike these ones:
peace, I'm quite done postin pics ... for a while..
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
Posted by Marc Washington (Member # 10979) on :
. .
Wow! Just checked-out this thread for the first time some minutes ago. Some damn nice pictures! Outstanding. Lots of these I've seen for the first time.
Thanks for the sharing of all those who posted.
Marc W.
. .
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Images from the 5th dynasty mastaba of Merefnebef, one of many mastabas that have been found from the Old Kingdom but not readily published for the public:
^ Agreed, Doug always seems to find the best wall paintings. I wonder where he finds them?
This is one of my favorites:
I like the attention to detail on the guy's hair. How did they carve those tiny little circles in with their big chiesels?
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
He gets them down at the crossroads from Elegba!
quote:Originally posted by Tyrann0saurus: ^ Agreed, Doug always seems to find the best wall paintings. I wonder where he finds them?
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
I appreciate all the support. I just found a few sites that consistently show images that others don't. One is osirisnet.net which has historically shown many images of Egyptian tombs that are normally not included in the catalog and table books of Egyptian art. Of course, most of these tombs are the ones with surviving paint that makes it hard to deny the blackness of the AE, but of course that has nothing to do with it now does it?
The other place I go is flickr which has one of the largest public collections of ancient Egyptian imagery anywhere on the net. Two top picks for anyone who is serious about seeing the range of artwork from ancient Egypt. Of course the best bet is always the nearest University Library and Special Research collection, but of course most don't have access to that, which makes the omissions that much more onerous and deceitful.
Anen, priest astronomer of Heliopolis and brother of Tiye. Also well known for a tomb (TT120), which contains a well preserved image of Queen Tiye and Amenhotep III. It is located in Qurna, which recently had all its population relocated so that scholars could restore the many tombs there.
The following images are from the Egyptological Museum in Florence Italy:
Head of Queen Tiye:
Two girls from an Egyptian tomb wearing red and white....
And some random other stuff:
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Images of Ahmose Nefertari Deified through the dynasties:
Stela from Dier El Medina
Fragments of a sedan chair with Ahmose Nefertari with her son Amenhotep I from Turin:
Stela of Amememope showing Ahmose Nefertari and Amenhotep I:
Thutmosis I and his mother, reproduction by Howard Carter:
Mutnofret daughter of Nebamun, fragment of an image from his tomb: Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Here's a nice fragment of an image of Thutmosis III from Dier el Bahri. This time period is labeled as one of the most colorful and well executed periods of Egyptian art, but how much of it do we see. I am sure there are a number of images like this that are scattered all over.
Image of Queen Ahmose from Dier el Bahri in a scene showing something similar to the annunciation to Mary, where the queen is shown bearing the next King. The key here is that there are many such "passion plays" or scenes of divine birth represented in the various temples of Egypt, where the king's mother is shown as being impregnated by the God's (often Amun), often as foretold by some deity and giving birth to the god's seed. All of this is the basis of the whole "immaculate conception" story of Christianity, which in reality is about political power in the Roman Empire and later European world.
quote: To strengthen her position as pharoh, Hatshepsut invented the myth about her own divine birth which is shown in scenes on the walls of her temple at Deir el-Bahari: The god Amun-Re comes to her mother Ahmose in the form of king Thutmose I and finds her sleeping in her room. He awakens her with his pleasant odor. Amun-Re then places the ankh, a symbol of life, to Ahmose's nose, and Hatshepsut is conceived. Khnum, the god who forms the bodies of human children, is then instructed to create a body and ka, or life force, for Hatshepsut. Khnum and Heket, goddess of life and fertility, lead Ahmose along to a lion bed where she gives birth to Hatshepsut.
To further strengthen her position, the Oracle of Amun proclaimed that it was the will of Amun that Hatshepsut be Pharaoh. She publicized Amun's support by having the god’s endorsement carved on her monuments.
She also claimed that she was her father's intended heir and that he made her crown prince of Egypt.
This image of Ahmose is from this scene. Again a repro by Howard Carter:
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Great Pics. Only a twisted fool will deny these are Black Africans.
Worst yet. Say they are white nords.
Posted by sportbilly (Member # 14122) on :
These are all white nordics!
I'm sorry, I couldn't resist!
This whole thread has been INCREDIBLE though. I sure hope there may be additions to it sometime.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Indeed, where is White Nerd? LOL Excellent pics, you guys!
Posted by sportbilly (Member # 14122) on :
Does anyone know where this picture came from? I found it on a youTube video and am curious about pics showing the Egyptian's maritime activities.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ I don't know but where are all the white nords of Egypt??
Posted by sportbilly (Member # 14122) on :
Probably in the cabin of the ship, trying to stay out of the sun!
Good to be hearing from you again DJ. Been a while.
Posted by Tyrann0saurus (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I don't know but where are all the white nords of Egypt??
Well, I have seen Nordicists point to images such as these:
Seriously, images like that where the black paint has been scratched off make me wonder whether archaeologists in the past really were running around "Aryanizing" Egyptian images. I doubt this happens too much today (the stereotypical image of an AE you see in cartoons and movies nowadays is of a guy with long black hair), but knowing the Nazi-type ideologies that were popular up to half a century ago...
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Some of the most beautiful Egyptian pics on the Net. Thanks Doug M.
I wonder what White Nord has to say about these pics.
Peace
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Much appreciated, but on't thank me, thank the sites and those individuals who put them on the net......
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Some more images from Flickr's ancient Egyptian art Pool:
Ahmose Nefertari: venerated ancestor of the New Kingdom
Ptahmes, chief of temple of Ptah under Ramses II:
Reliefs from the tomb of MeryMery in Saqqarah:
Ramessid Statue:
Hathor Statue from time of Amenhotep III:
Terra Cotta doll (roman period?):
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Is that braids I am looking at?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Forget the braids, look at all that dark paint. Even if this artwork comes from the Roman period, obviously the child depicted not that of a Roman or Greek colonist.
As for White Nord, let braindead nords lie.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Lid from British Museum Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Hey Yonis. Who needs a passport. When I can visit AE in my shorts. HE! HE! HE!
Just kidding. - I have visited several countries around the world but not Egypt. Infact my brother and his 9yr old son is making the trip in a few weeks - some group tour with one of those Afrocentrist . Maybe I can upload some pics when he gets back.
Great photos Doug!!
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Ahmose Nefertari again, shown as Mother of the Dynasty and painted black, which is symbolic of her association with the South, the headwaters of the Nile, which represents rebirth and the origin of the Egyptian royal line, which inevitably comes from the South, both during the early 18th dynasty and early dynastic Egypt. All of which is a symbolic and literal representation of the origins of Egyptian dynastic culture being from inner Africa. But it is absurdly hilarious to hear how Egyptologists try and get around this obvious meaning, from calling her color as "covered with asphalt", to being "queen of the necropolis" and all other sorts of non-sense to get around her OBVIOUS symbolism as the Queen who birthed the Great King that liberated the country from the Hyksos, the reds, the desert dwellers, the bringers of dryness and chaos from without. As such she symbolizes the force of the Nile itself, originating IN AFRICA bringing with it renewal and the restoration of the throne of Kingship which originated in the South.
Such symbolism was tied to the entire institution of kingship and worship in dynastic Egypt from the very beginning, with each temple being symbolic of the womb and sacred mound (black earth) of creation from which the pharaoh was born. The black earth both refers to the symbolism of the fertile soil, but also to the skin of those who were the first children of the earth, the man and women of inner Africa, at the headwaters of the Nile. Therefore, the mother of the King was symbolic of the ties of Egyptian kingship to their southern roots IN AFRICA and Ahmose Nefertari was venerated THROUGHOUT the New Kingdom as SYMBOLIC of her role as Queen Mother in restoring Maat in Egypt and restoring the line of Kings from the South.
quote: Because these royal worship temples celebrated the pharaoh's glory, they were also very close linked with the notion of royal power. We understand that they disappeared at the end of the XXth dynasty when the high priests or the king priests acceded to the throne. At the Ramesseum, the official worship didn't go on beyond the end of the ramesside period.
However, the abandonment of the worship is not synonymus of the abandonment of the place. As soon as, the XXIIth dynasty, a necropolis was settled in most of the outbuildings. The Tombs and the funerary chapel were reserved for the members of the Theban clergy. Some princesses in charge of sacerdotal functions like Sathorkhenem and some divine adoratrices such as Karomama, who came from royal families (Osorkon I, Takélot II) were inhumed in the precinct of the Ramesseum. An organization was set up to manage the plots, the inhumations and the upkeep of the necropolis.
From the XXIXth dynasty onwards, and during the Ptolemaic and the Roman periods, the Ramesseum was subject to several amputations, which brought about the disappearance of the mammisi of Touy and Nefertari and the dismantling of many walls, pillars and columns. Many of these materials were reused in the late arrangements of the complex of Medinet Habou. The removal of pieces of the Ramesseum lasted until the medieval period.
During the first century AD, the temple was transformed into a church. This is proved by some hasty arrangements in the last hypostyle halls and by many engraved or painted graffitis on the walls. The hammering of many reliefs is also a feature of this period. During the last archaeological digs, some architectural elements and some liturgical objects were discovered.
quote:The black earth both refers to the symbolism of the fertile soil
^ Actually, there are few if any references to black EARTH in mdw ntr.
When the AE reference themselves as Black, they sometimes paint THEIR SKIN jet Black.... in these instances, there is no reference to earth, dirt, soil or the waters of the nile, whatsoever.
The KM.t seldom if ever refer to black waters of the nile for example.
If you have actual references to black water or black earth from Egyptian text please present.
I say, that none exists, and the notion of black water and black dirt is a Eurocentric ruse, to destract from the reality of Black people.
I think you should not further this distraction.
Your own brilliant collection of pictures demonstrates the reality of black people.
There is not a single image that can show a reference to black soil, or black water.
Why is that?
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ In my opinion Wally's remains the best and most insightful take on Egyptian color dialectics.
He was the 1st, to my knowledge to point out that the Egyptians referred to what is now called the Red Sea, as the Kem Wer - "Great Black Sea".
Kem wer [miri][large body of water] = The Great Black sea (The Red sea). This sea is neither black nor red, this is in reference to which nation, Black or Red, at a particular time, controlled this body of water. http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/ Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ Great thread Doug, one of the best in years
quote:The black earth both refers to the symbolism of the fertile soil
^ Actually, there are few if any references to black EARTH in mdw ntr.
When the AE reference themselves as Black, they sometimes paint THEIR SKIN jet Black.... in these instances, there is no reference to earth, dirt, soil or the waters of the nile, whatsoever.
The KM.t seldom if ever refer to black waters of the nile for example.
If you have actual references to black water or black earth from Egyptian text please present.
I say, that none exists, and the notion of black water and black dirt is a Eurocentric ruse, to destract from the reality of Black people.
I think you should not further this distraction.
Your own brilliant collection of pictures demonstrates the reality of black people.
There is not a single image that can show a reference to black soil, or black water.
Why is that?
Rasol, why do you respond to my posts as if I am some newbie to Egypt and its history? NO, black earth means black earth. It refers to BOTH the color of the earth AND the first HUMANS of the earth and is SYMBOLIC of the force and power of creation. That symbolism is FUNDAMENTAL to Egyptian cosmology. It isn't a ONE OR THE OTHER issue, it is BOTH. Fundamentally, what it means is that BLACKS are the first humans created on earth and the sacred connection between ALL mankind and the force of creation in the universe. Isis, Heru and Wosir (Osiris) are SYMBOLIC of the force of creation and regeneration as a FUNDAMENTAL force of biology and genetics, which TIES ALL THINGS to the great throne of Osiris, the primeval essence of human creation, ie the Great Black, the LIVING EARTH, the SEED and essence of the living spirit of creation in the flesh, BORN from the earth.
When I speak of the black earth and black seed, THAT is what I am referring to, which IS INDEED what is symbolized in ancient Egyptian cosmology. This has NOTHING to do with Eurocentric attempts to create a FALSE DICHOTOMY where the symbolism of BLACKNESS as it relates to fertility or the earth, thereby means it CANNOT be related to skin color. OBVIOUSLY, in Egyptian cosmology, with its MULTI LAYERED SYMBOLISM, things are not that SIMPLE.
Quote from the Pyramid texts:
quote: 626a. To say: O Osiris N., stand up, lift thyself up;
626b. thy mother Nut has brought thee forth; Geb has wiped thy mouth for thee.
626c. The Great Ennead avenge thee;
626d. they put for thee thine enemy under thee.
627a. Carry thou (him who is) greater than thou, said they to him, in thy name of "He of the Great Saw Palace."
627b. Lift (him up who is) greater than thou, said they, in thy name of "He of the Great Land Nome."
628a. Thy two sisters Isis and Nephthys come to thee; they heal thee
628b. complete and great, in thy name of "Great Black,"
628c. fresh and great, in thy name of "Great Green."
629a. Behold, thou art great and round like the "Great Round";
629b. behold, thou are bent around, and art round like the "Circle which encircles the nb.wt";
629c. behold, thou art round and great like the "Great Circle which sets."
630a. Isis and Nephthys protected thee in Siût,
630b. even their lord in thee, in thy name of "Lord of Siût";
p. 126
630c. even their god in thee, in thy name of "God."
631 a. They adore thee, so that thou shalt not (again) withdraw from them, in thy name of "Dwȝ-ntr" (or, "divine Dwȝ");
631b. they take care of thee, so that thou mayest not (again) be angry, in thy name of "Dndr.w-boat."
632a. Thy sister comes to thee, rejoicing for love of thee.
632b. Thou hast placed her on thy phallus,
632c. that thy seed may go into her, (while) it is pointed like Sothis.
632d. Horus the pointed has come forth from thee as Horus who was in Sothis.
633a. Thou art pleased with him, in his name of "Spirit who was in the Dndr.w-boat";
633b. he avenges thee, in his name of "Horus, the son, who avenges his father."
This is an all encompassing world view not simply a one dimensional idea. And it represents TRUTH, literally, symbolically and HISTORICALLY, which is why it is so powerful to begin with. For humans were born in Africa and the result of the forces of creation, which makes them the original SEED of the earth which was carried to the four corners of the earth. Which makes Egyptian cosmology more than some made up mythological fairy tales told to please the crowd. It represents potent historical, biological, anthropological truths, tied into a political framework. It is the original PASSION play or drama of life itself and has powerful imagery underlying it, which actually reflects on the fundamental biological essence of human life.
And another image that I forgot to post earlier, showing another tradition that has African roots: Seti I lassoing the sacred bull at Abydos:
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ I must agree with Rasol. The color black was sacred to the Egyptians who associated it with the divine hence Ahmose Nefertari depicted in black since here elevation to divine status. No 'earth' or 'soil' involved which is why it's funny to see the Eurocents spin about these crazy explanations even those which say the black color represents her "death". LOL Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
And to further show how the symbolism of the earth, blackness, the seed, the "sun" or son of the earth is found in the symbolism, note the following passage carefully:
quote: 632a. Thy sister comes to thee, rejoicing for love of thee.
632b. Thou hast placed her on thy phallus,
632c. that thy seed may go into her, (while) it is pointed like Sothis.
632d. Horus the pointed has come forth from thee as Horus who was in Sothis.
633a. Thou art pleased with him, in his name of "Spirit who was in the Dndr.w-boat";
633b. he avenges thee, in his name of "Horus, the son, who avenges his father."
It represents the symbolic renewal of the country as personified by the inundation of the Nile, which flows from the south and is associated with the "flow" (like the Nile) of kingship and the royal line which is the personification of this essence with the newly risen "king" as the manifestation of the balance between the forces of life and death and the well being of the country.
The symbolism is found firstly in Sothis, the morning star or great EASTERN STAR of the horizon, Sirius, which announces the YEARLY inundation of the Nile and the return of the fertility of the black earth. She represents she who is ready to give birth and ready for the new birth of spring as Horus the living seed, who is avenging the season of death and dismemberment of his father (the yearly threshing the dead grain and chaff after the harvest) at the hands of his uncle set (the season of dryness). This is the manifestation and representation of OSIRIS as the LIVING EARTH (great black and great round) regenerating himself by becoming the great green (plant, animal and human reproduction) which is the great circle (cycle) of creation and is symbolic of the creative essence of the universe itself, which is the invisible blackness that encircles all.
From this you get the concept of the King as Osiris or Horus, the risen seed, being symbolic of the "daily bread" of the people as he who is the living life force of the earth and the reproduction of plants and animals and the propagation of the seed (agriculture, animal husbandry), the seed of animal husbandry and life sustainment harnessed by the king is symbolized by the lassoing of the Great Bull and is symbolized in the Apis bull: male seed of cow reproduction, another symbol of Osiris and of course Hathor is representation of the womb or uterus.
And all of this is why Jesus was born in a manger, or in other words in a farm setting, surrounded by cows, announced by the rising of a star in the East and immediately visited by Magi signifying their understanding of him as the "risen lord", which is actually a personification of Serapis, the Hellenized version of Osiris and Apis, the "savior" (of his father) and a deity of grain and the harvest.
quote: n Egyptian mythology, Apis or Hapis (alternatively spelt Hapi-ankh), was a bull-deity worshipped in the Memphis region.
According to Manetho, his worship was instituted by Kaiechos of the Second Dynasty. Hape (Apis) is named on very early monuments, but little is known of the divine animal before the New Kingdom. Ceremonial burials of bulls indicate that ritual sacrifice was part of the worship of the early cow deities and a bull might represent a king who became a deity after death. He was entitled "the renewal of the life" of the Memphite god Ptah: but after death he became Osorapis, i.e. the Osiris Apis, just as dead humans were assimilated to Osiris, the king of the underworld. This Osorapis was identified with the Hellenistic Serapis, and may well be identical with him. Greek writers make the Apis an incarnation of Osiris, ignoring the connection with Ptah.
Apis was the most important of all the sacred animals in Egypt, and, as with the others, its importance increased as time went on. Greek and Roman authors have much to say about Apis, the marks by which the black bull-calf was recognized, the manner of his conception by a ray from heaven, his house at Memphis with court for disporting himself, the mode of prognostication from his actions, the mourning at his death, his costly burial, and the rejoicings throughout the country when a new Apis was found. Mariette's excavation of the Serapeum at Memphis revealed the tombs of over sixty animals, ranging from the time of Amenophis III to that of Ptolemy Alexander. At first each animal was buried in a separate tomb with a chapel built above it. Khamuis, the priestly son of Ramesses II (c. 1300 B.C.), excavated a great gallery to be lined with the tomb chambers; another similar gallery was added by Psammetichus I. The careful statement of the ages of the animals in the later instances, with the regnal dates for their birth, enthronization, and death have thrown much light on the chronology from the Twenty-second dynasty onwards. The name of the mother-cow and the place of birth often are recorded. The sarcophagi are of immense size, and the burial must have entailed enormous expense. It is therefore remarkable that the priests contrived to bury one of the animals in the fourth year of Cambyses.
quote: The Greek name for the goddess called Sopdet by the Egyptians. She was the personification of Sirius, the Dog Star. This star, after a long period of invisibility, reappeared again in the sky just when the Nile innundation was about to begin - the so-called heliacal rising of Sirius. The start of the new year, heralded by the rising of the waters, was linked with this 'going forth of Sothis' and led to the goddess being called 'lady of the new year'. On the basis of a depiction on an ivory tablet from the 1st Dynasty, which shows Sothis in the form of a cow with a plant between its horns, it has been concluded that at this early time already, a relationship was seen between the arrival of the goddess and the new year. Only once in every 1,460 years did the heliacal rising of Sirius coincide with the start of the solar year. Such a event occurred during the reign of Antoninus Pius in 139 AD. Taking this as a starting point, it can be calculated that earlier concurrences took place in 1,321 BC and in 2,781 BC. As we also have records of the phenomenon from the reigns of Senwosret III and Amenhotep I/Thutmosis III, this makes it possible to draw up a more precise chronology of Egyptian history. Sothis was often mentioned as a member of a triad, with her husband the god Sah (the personification of the constellation of Orion) and the child, the god Soped. Parallels link the three divinities with Osiris, Isis and Horus. As early as the Pyramid Texts, it is stated that Sothis united with Osiris and then gave birth to the morning star. Sothis is usually depicted as a woman with a star on her head, and sometimes also cow's horns, copying Isis who in turn had adopted this attribute from Hathor.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I must agree with Rasol. The color black was sacred to the Egyptians who associated it with the divine hence Ahmose Nefertari depicted in black since here elevation to divine status. No 'earth' or 'soil' involved which is why it's funny to see the Eurocents spin about these crazy explanations even those which say the black color represents her "death". LOL
Why was black divine and how did the Egyptians represent the divinity of blackness in their cosmology? I just GAVE you a passage from the Medu Neter showing CLEARLY that Osiris is the "Great Black" ROUND EARTH and symbolic of the LIFE FORCE of the earth AND UNIVERSE (the great circle) as maintained through the SEED, which is SYMBOLIC of the KINGSHIP of the COUNTRY ITSELF.
So can you not read?
quote: 627b. Lift (him up who is) greater than thou, said they, in thy name of "He of the Great Land Nome."
The Great Land Nome is the 8th nome of Upper Egypt or ABYDOS. Abydos is the Nome of Osiris and is the location where many rites and rituals central to the Osirian drama were carried out. The name says it all.
quote: 628a. Thy two sisters Isis and Nephthys come to thee; they heal thee
628b. complete and great, in thy name of "Great Black,"
628c. fresh and great, in thy name of "Great Green."
Right here, you have two references, one to "great black" as meaning what and then "Great Green". Now what does great black and great green in reference to the SAME deity? Not to forget that the FATHER of Osiris is MIN who is almost ALWAYS depicted as a BLACK MALE with an erect penis representing FERTILITY. THAT RIGHT THERE shows the connection between blackness, the earth, the seed and HUMAN BEINGS. Osiris is the Ka or SPIRIT of the life force of th EARTH ITSELF. And that Ka or LIFE FORCE is manifested in human form as the GREAT BLACK, which is THE EARTH PERSONIFIED, the RISEN SEED of the earth, the FIRST FORM to emerge from the time of FIRST CREATION from the SACRED MOUND that arose in.... guess where? INNER AFRICA.
Ahmose Nefertari is almost always shown as black because SHE is the mother of the Dynastic line, with her color meaning the renewal of the royal line, meaning the rebirth of the dynastic seed and the ascension of SOUTHERNERS to the throne of Egypt, after a period of chaos and death caused by the foreigners. This strong black symbolism is ALSO seen in the 11th dynasty when Mentuhotep reigned after a long season of death (actual droughts) and conflict in Egypt and surrounded himself with BLACK WOMEN (kemsit) in order to ENSURE the renewal and rebirth of the BLACK SEED and the health of the country. The IRONY here is that mostly MALES are considered as the defenders and protectors of the womb and the seed of life and hence depicted as the black Earth and seed of Osiris and the FATHER of the dynasty. However, Ahmose Nefertari is unique in this respect AS A WOMAN she becomes symbolic of the dynasty itself and the POWERFUL FORCE of the restoration and regeneration of the royal line and the seed of the throne and the defense of this institution.
All you guys do is talk about Eurocentrism when Egyptian cosmology existed thousands of years before such a thing was thought about. The "black Queen" Ahmose Nefertari is a parallel to the legendary "white Queen" of various European cultures. They BOTH represent ancestry and ties to geographical origins, with the "white queen" representing white skin, the white snow and the cold environment that PRODUCES such people, whereas Ahmose Nefertari represents EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE, black skin, the black earth and the environment that produces such people.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Old Kingdom stuff:
Mastaba Uhemka at the Roemer Pelizaeus Museum, Hildesheim Germany
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: He gets them down at the crossroads from Elegba!
quote:Originally posted by Tyrann0saurus: ^ Agreed, Doug always seems to find the best wall paintings. I wonder where he finds them?
alTakruri, what are you really saying? Your cryptography goes over my head often times.
Please break it down for the learners.
Also, please do be extra vigilant with your TNV account. The gang is very sore right now. I have dragged them around on a leash tied to the behind of my chariot for many days now on ES.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ That whole leash and chariot thing is what they probably do in their homes anyway. LOL
Anyway, keep it up Doug.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Most of these images come from a few places: flickr and some from Osirisnet. But for even more spectacular images, books are the best and a trip to a good university library would turn up much better stuff than this.
Hathor:
Bes:
Amarna worker:
Woman with Lily:
Pepi:
Stela:
Djedefre:
Hathor:
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Why was black divine and how did the Egyptians represent the divinity of blackness in their cosmology?
Not because of the Nile Valley: things were divine because they were 'black' (- their blackness marked their divinity).
The 'red' desert to the North was not divine because it was not [black].
The black woman/man was rich and fertile as was the black [/b]land[/b] of the Nile.
Black <-> life/creation; red <-> death/destruction.
Osirus, the spirit of the Earth is black because the Earth brought forth life; osirus is fertile.
Set didn't become an antagonist until he was adopted by reds/Asiatics.
Kmt's blackness isn't dependant on their connection to land though. If you happen to think so then well you're looking at this backwards. Let me explain:
Something or someone doesn't need to be land-oriented in order for it to be black/fertile or red/infertile.
The land (or person) however does need to be 'red' to be infertile and need to be black to symbolize fertility [virility].
quote:
quote: 628b. complete and great, in thy name of "Great Black,"
628c. fresh and great, in thy name of "Great Green."
Right here, you have two references, one to "great black" as meaning what and then "Great Green". Now what does great black and great green in reference to the SAME deity?
Yes, black symbolised completion among other things.
quote:the FATHER of Osiris is MIN who is almost ALWAYS depicted as a BLACK MALE with an erect penis representing FERTILITY.
quote:Osiris is the Ka or SPIRIT of the life force of th EARTH ITSELF. And that Ka or LIFE FORCE is manifested in human form as the GREAT BLACK, which is THE EARTH PERSONIFIED, the RISEN SEED of the earth, the FIRST FORM to emerge from the time of FIRST CREATION from the SACRED MOUND that arose in.... guess where? INNER AFRICA.
Yes, another connection between black and fertile.
quote: This strong black symbolism
.. is just that, black symbolism.
"Kemet" refers to the polity and the people.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): [QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug M:
Kmt's blackness isn't dependant on their connection to land though. If you happen to think so then well you're looking at this backwards. Let me explain:
Actually it is dependant on the land, because the blackness is a form of nationalism and national identity where the symbolism within the cosmology is what TIES the people to the land as defined within their world view, belief system and culture. That fundamental ideology is what supports the power of the ruling class and political system of ANY nation. It is the earliest form of the idea that the people are "chosen" by the God's as a symbol of the power of God's creation and the land is a symbol of gods continual blessings to the people. Their fate and destiny is in the hands of the ruling class, where the rulers are stand ins and agents working on the behalf of the "gods", maintaining order and the land as a symbol of gods blessing to the people. Such ideas are fundamental to the development of modern nationalistic/theological doctrines and why religion has developed as a tool of colonialism and empire building, because it allows others to define THEMSELVES as chosen by the 'gods' and therefore granted EXCLUSIVE privileges in terms of being able to harvest the wealth and prosperity of the land, no matter whether they are NATIVE to those lands or not. It is also the basis of the doctrine of white supremacy which is also a blatant form of nationalism rooted in European masonic theft of African culture and turning it on its head in order to further the aims of white nationalism, which itself is based on a FALSE view of history, a FALSE view of biology and a FALSE view of creation. Therefore, they are NOT servants of truth they are NOT keepers of the law and they are NOT keepers of the word. They are liars thieves and crooks, looking to use the goodness of nature as a basis for wanton death and destruction in the name of "the gods". The ideology and cosmology of KMT is based on FACT and TRUTH. The black seed IS the root of humanity on earth. It IS the first creation of the gods' and it DOES reflect gods creative force in the universe.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Sorry Doug for messing up the thread. My brother and 10yo just back from the tour. Didn't like the guide he said next time he will do Asha Kwesi. Said there is definitely a difference between Cairo and Luxur. Seems to be strong ethnic line between the Nubians and the "Egyptians". He will drop some pics on a DVD for me. I will see if I can post some good ones. Said the size of the temples etc are unbelievable.
quote:Originally posted by Hori:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: He gets them down at the crossroads from Elegba!
quote:Originally posted by Tyrann0saurus: ^ Agreed, Doug always seems to find the best wall paintings. I wonder where he finds them?
alTakruri, what are you really saying? Your cryptography goes over my head often times.
Please break it down for the learners.
Also, please do be extra vigilant with your TNV account. The gang is very sore right now. I have dragged them around on a leash tied to the behind of my chariot for many days now on ES.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Whom are you referring to as "Nubian" here? Egyptians from Luxor to Aswan are Egyptians. Self identified "Nubians" are those who live in the extreme North of Sudan. They are Sudanese by nationality. So what you really seem to be saying is that there is a strong line between Cairene Egyptians and Egyptians from the South, which makes sense to anyone who knows anything about the last 2000 years of Egyptian history.
Posted by Hri (Member # 11484) on :
^ Hey Doug
Please feel free to join and create your classic picture threads ('pages' in wiki talk): http://www.aegyptopedia.com/
I will ensure no funny business goes on there. And I'll be pushing the site hard on google.
YH.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Yep. That's why I used quotation marks. Apperently the Nubians don't like to be classified as . . . the "other" group.
One observation he made was the MONEY brought in by AE tourism. Not sure about this but he said (tourguide) that tourism was the largest money earner in Egypt. And this is an oil producing country. And guess who are the tourist. Not AA. But white Europeans. Millions . . .maybe not so much. . .of them every year.
His 10yr really enjoyed it. Was eager to talk about it. Eye opening trip you a young Black male.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Whom are you referring to as "Nubian" here? Egyptians from Luxor to Aswan are Egyptians. Self identified "Nubians" are those who live in the extreme North of Sudan. They are Sudanese by nationality. So what you really seem to be saying is that there is a strong line between Cairene Egyptians and Egyptians from the South, which makes sense to anyone who knows anything about the last 2000 years of Egyptian history.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
You still haven't answered the question. Who are you referring to as "Nubian"? What regions and people are you considering "Nubian" and what is the distinguishing factor? Darker skinned people in Upper Egypt are EGYPTIANS, not "Nubians".
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Interesting, almost a perfect match:
Man restoring reliefs at a Ramessid temple.
Nice....
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I haven't seen the people he was referring to but knowing my brother I will assume he was talking about(nubians) the non-Arabs AA looking Egyptians. Whom he considers the AE.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: You still haven't answered the question. Who are you referring to as "Nubian"? What regions and people are you considering "Nubian" and what is the distinguishing factor? Darker skinned people in Upper Egypt are EGYPTIANS, not "Nubians".
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
I understand but Non Arab, AA looking Egyptians are just that Egyptians. Nubians are those around Aswan into Northern Sudan and they self identify as such. Calling someone in Egypt Nubian just because they have dark skin in Egypt is a misapplication of the term IMO.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Some other images from the tomb of Nedjemger and Hori:
^Think that last one was posted by Doug already in the race of the AE thread or possibly here. Not sure where, so it's sticking here.
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
Sarcoughogus
Metjetji:
Old Kingdom, late Dynasty 5-early Dynasty 6, circa 2371-2288 B.C. Probably from Saqqara Wood, gessoed and painted; alabaster, obsidian, and copper 51.1, Charles Edwin Wilbour Fund
Senenmut and Neferura:
Modern Egyptian art in the making. (Alabaster)
Painting kerosene on Egyptian wall reliefs (helps preserve them):
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
Brewery and bakery:
Some King (Pharaoh)
Wah (man who became a God)
Wah's jewelry:
Boats
Sporting boat Dynasty 12 early reign of Amenemhat I from tomb of Meketre Thebes 1981-1975 BCE
Traveling Boat Rowing Dynasty 12 early reign of Amenemhat I from tomb of Meketre Thebes 1981-1975 BCE
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
Funeral boat sailing Dynasty 12 early reign of Amenemhat I tomb of Meketre 1981-1975 BCE
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
Kitchen Tender Rowing Dynasty 12 early reign of Amenemhat I from tomb of Meketre Thebes 1981-1975 BCE
Notice the differences between all the types of boats..
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
Another shot of the Sporting and Traveling boats
Better tint (you can see more contrast - less amber-brown glare).
*
Grainery:
Slaughterhouse:
Stables:
Brewery and Bakery:
Egyptian Model of a garden Dynasty 11 2009-1998 BCE from Thebes painted and gessoed wood
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Beautiful depictions of all the chocolate dark 'cacazoids'! Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
^Uh..? .... They got a tad bit tanned it looks like.
Thutmose IV Peristyle Hall by Horus 2008 by Kairoinfo4u on Flickr:
Tutankahmun:
Djeser-djeseru, Hatshepsut’s temple Luxor, Egypt 2 Portico Hall of Punt Thutmosis III wearing the Khepresch crown appears in front of Amun offering two jars of myrrh
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
It seems that at sometimes, there wasn't as much yellow paint than at others (they used whites, yellows, reds, greens, blues and blacks to create the colors we see -- or so I've read). I'll post later after confirming in Supercar's AE art Lessons thread.
*
Egypt Qila el-Dab'a old Kingdom necropolis of Ain Asil قلاع الضبة
Limitations in available paint materials?
Hmm..
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
Coffin lid of Queen Ahhotep
Thutmoses III
Shepard Kings
Giant COLLOSAL Ramses II ...
On more different-texture shot of the boats: the other boats
Kitchen "tender" rowing..
Funerary...
Traveling boat rowing..
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
Other figurines:
Thutmose III
Kemet's soldiers:
other figurines:
Close up on soldiers
Close up on a boat rower:
This guy looks JUST LIKE a friend of mine, and has that SAME smirck on his face, lol:
This is blurrier and further out and smaller than the one of the soldiers I posted a page back (that I always post, for lack of other pictures), but it's from a different angle I think (the other one was from straight ahead) and smaller frame.
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
Paneshy Panesy
The famous Queen Nerfertiti.
I would post the infamous 'Berlin Bust' of NAZI Germany that Europeans - especially those who are not French - seem to be particularly proud of. But seeing as how it looks completely different from the way it did when they 'found' it, I won't.
Instead, just about every othah pic.
Other depictions of Nefertiti:
Partiers:
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
It's a celebration!
Some in the above scene got cut off - the following scenes are from a book:
Another scene:
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
Young girl
Blind harpist
?
Egyptian women working:
cow guy / hoer i guess
Children w/ their royal parents:
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
Items in Tut's tomb
Other things
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
Thebes Dynasty 11 offering bearer:
Procession of Bearers
Slaughter House, Dynasty 11 (2009-1998 BCE)
More Egyptian Bearers:
Another Dynasty 11 Offering carier:
And I think this one's from Dynasty 11 too:
I know this next one is:
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
Wow (the sheer number of works is amazing, but it was a 3,000+ year civilization.
Domestic scene
? some boat:
Dynasty 12 Workshop
Nother view of bearers:
Dynast 6 Overseer of Granery found at Saqqara
Brewery and Bakery, 11th Dynasty:
11 Dynasty Granary:
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
Same
11th, Slaughter House:
quote:Originally posted by ausar: Tuthmose I
[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 13 December 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by ausar:
Pepi II Old Kingdom
quote:Originally posted by ausar:
Face of Senuret III
quote:Originally posted by ausar:
quote:Which Dynasty, please?
That would be the 18th dyansty during the New Kingdom. At this time Egypt's border extended around to the Fourth cataract in modern Sudan.
Khasekhemwy 2nd dyansty
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: 19th Dyn, tomb of Rwy royal scribe for Horemheb
.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Tomb of Kenamon in the time of Amenophis II
[This message has been edited by alTakruri (edited 15 December 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Senefre & Hatshepsut, time of Amenophis II
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Nebsen & Nebetta, time of Amenhotep III
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Kiya wife of Akhenaten
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Depends on whose list your using as prime documentation; Tjemehu, Nehesu, A3mu, H3w Nebu, and even some Romitu!
But this tomb painting of Tiy and Amenhotpe III's dais has: Sen-gar Kush Naharin Irem Keftiu Iuntiu-seti Tehenu Mentu-nu-setet Shasu.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: OK, you [need] a magnifier to see them but at the bottom are the 9 Bows traditional enemies of [T3.mry].
Tomb of Anen 2nd prophet of Amen, son of Yuya & Tuya.
I forgot to ask before but, which peoples comprised the 9 bows?
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: I've also noticed that every pic of a Napatean royal women I've seen depicts her in red, i.e. the same complexion of Kings: Queen Qalhata, mother of King Tanwetamani : King Taharqa and his wife Dikahatamani:
I also remember reading from an Assyrian royal text I forgot the name that Taharqa's relatives were referred as being as "black as asphalt". So what I get from the data I've seen so far is that Kushites borrowed Egyptian color symbolism and adapted it to their kingship, the royal women having a equal status to men at the time of the Napata period already (cf. Babacar SALL).
Maybe this, as well as only old fat male individuals in the OK kingdom being painted in yellow would indicate that the red/yellow dichotomy had a value originally associated with manhood/feminity that also evolved into a more abstract activeness/softness symbolism.
quote:Mystery Solver/Supercar:
quote:Originally posted by Psusennes I: I hope I am doing this right. There aren't any rules or anything? You just post pictures and sculptures of the Ancient Egyptians I assume:
Funerary stela of Mer-Hathor-Ites. Early Ptolemaic period.
[This message has been edited by Psusennes I (edited 09 December 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Psusennes I: Detail of the Animal on the offering bearer
Detail of Basket:
It is fantastic that such simple objects are so fantastic and intricate. One must remember that the most common finds in Egypt are common home and basic burial objects- and some of these are just as amazing as even the greatest treasures of Egypt.
[This message has been edited by Psusennes I (edited 10 December 2004).]
[This message has been edited by Psusennes I (edited 10 December 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Willing Thinker {What Box}:
Kemsit^
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by supercar: Continued...again from The Egyptian Museum
Neferhernenptah and his family, 6th dynasty
Old Kingdom seated scribe.
Merenre Bronz statue, Pepi I’s son.
Khafre’s son: Menkaure Triad
Menkaure Triad2
Statue of King Nebhepetre II Mentuhotep
[This message has been edited by supercar (edited 09 December 2004).]
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by supercar: Let us not forget poineer Narmer:
Narmer bust (courtesy of aldokkan.com)
The following are from The Egyptian Museum link, where other interesting stutue photos can be viewed.
Narmer Palette
The Djoser Statue in the Museum
Old Kingdom Statues
Several small statues from the Fourth Dynasty.
Rameses II, the child in front Horus figure
More statues from the old kingdom
continued...
Not!
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
Imhotep Mastaba tomb guardian
Golden Sarcophogus from ?:
Cosmetic monkey vessel:
Ointment vessels:
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
^Why does African food always look so delicious?
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
Old Kingdom
Another Sarcophagus
Eyes of a Queen
Sarcophagus
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
Sarcophagus:
Funerary Mask
Sarcophagus
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
Sarcophagus of Horkhebit
?
Ritual statuette of Thutmosis III
Sarcophagus of Djehor from Sakkara
^This last one's from the Ptolemic period
Posted by Alive (Member # 10819) on :
Iset-Weret, Ptolemaic Period,
305-30 B.C. Said to be from Akhmim
Ptolemaic period
Posted by Alive (Member # 10819) on :
^^Nice Set, here.
Posted by Alive (Member # 10819) on :
Not AE but nice!
Posted by Alive (Member # 10819) on :
This makes absolutely no sense, but:
A joke about a post some misguided Bantu poster made accusing moderation of being pro-Horn African (we had alot of intra african ethnic wars in this forum in the past).
Anyway..
quote:Originally posted by Supercar:
quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18: The good old days
...Bantu cattle....
^^Nice pic of war captives.
Ps - Matter of fact, here is a Kushite/"Nubian", with his enemies:
^ Amazing the lengths of distortion and obfuscation Western scholars in the past went through to say that these people above were somehow not black but 'caucasian'. I wonder what explanations they had for the remaining dark paint that were the peoples' complexions.
quote:Originally posted by Alive: Ancient Egyptian JENA 6, bytch!
^ The kneeling men in that mural above represent the 'giant' Levantine types subdued from northern Palestine and Syria as was also described in the Bible.
Posted by T. Rex (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Amazing the lengths of distortion and obfuscation Western scholars in the past went through to say that these people above were somehow not black but 'caucasian'. I wonder what explanations they had for the remaining dark paint that were the peoples' complexions.
Really deep suntans?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Sure, they were spray-on tans of the chocolate dark variety. Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Some examples of tomb art that is not often seen outside of Egypt. Note there are hundreds if not thousands of tombs all over Egypt, many of which still have some paint and MOST of them are hardly ever seen by the public outside of Egypt. Not only that many of these tombs still have remains in them and are in a state of disrepair. Many also are wide open to the public with no protection from dampness or moisture or tampering.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: ...Not only that many of these tombs still have remains in them and are in a state of disrepair. Many also are wide open to the public with no protection from dampness or moisture or tampering.
I wonder why.
Could it be because they preserved the very dark paint? What about all those other murals where the original paint is preserved but are still displayed in various media?
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote: The original meaning of the Maypole dates back to the spring fertility festivals of India and Egypt. The Maypole was decorated with flowers and streamers. The streamers were held by dancers who circled the pole, weaving a pattern as they passed each other during the dance. The pole represents the masculine principle of nature whereas the wreath represents the feminine principle.
So many black people. Note the vast contrast in skin color between people on the wall murals and the nordic tourists taking the pics.
Those on the wall are so black, most have thick lips and . . .prognatism. Sounds so . . . negroid.
Maybe they are heavily tan, caucasoids, with thick lips and prognatism. LOL!
Many of the paintings are faded imagine what they looked like when freshly painted. Reminds of the Bejas and some Somalis. ie jet black Africans.
Even the "egyptians" on TV(Cities) don't align with those on the walls.
Why there is a debate is beyond me.
Nice pics, added many to my collection.
Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
many arabs have thick lips as well. There ae no black people in those pictures, it is a figment of your fertile imagination.
Posted by naturalborn7 (Member # 15598) on :
One thing is for sure. I don't see ANY "caucasions" in these pics. To see one in these photos would be the real stretch of imagination.
Anyone of them would be identified as black in Texas.
Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
riiiight.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Of course Natural is right. What Texan (in the right mind) would deny peoples with chocolate dark skin from Africa as anything other than 'black'??
quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: many arabs have thick lips as well. There ae no black people in those pictures, it is a figment of your fertile imagination.
LMAO
Keep telling yourself that 'professor' if it makes you feel better, but there are many blacks with thin lips as well but NON of those pictures with the mahogany to ebony complexions are 'Arabs'!
Posted by naturalborn7 (Member # 15598) on :
^Also, so what if arabs also have thick lips as well. We can rule out these people as being arab. Arabs didn't exist at this time.
We can also rule out these people as being "caucasion". They are to dark. Dark brown "caucasion" Africans with tans is really a stretch. Almost comical when you think about it.
What is PAT left with at this point?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Of course Pat is left with nothing as usual.
First of all there is no such thing as 'race' since racial classifications such as 'cacasoid' are as specious and subjective as 'negroid' or 'mongoloid'. Therefore, scientifically they are not valid and thus don't exist!
Africans vary in features and complexions but are pretty much consistent in that all have tropical adaptations in the form of limb proportions and dark coloring.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
What I shudder at is that PAT is Able to say that all those pics, show Non-Africans.
Love it great discussion
Posted by gilgameshx (Member # 14404) on :
Could'nt agree more nuary32 honestly i'm mixed race and the only people i resemble in these portraits/art are the greco-roman influenced fayum portraits,the apparently "white egyptians" are far far blacker than me.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Various egyptian Stela:
Note the symbols of authority held by Osiris, which are very reminiscent of the symbols of authority of the Pope: Note also the Shen ring in between the Eyes of Ra, similar to the black dot or red dot symbolizing the third eye in India. From: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Egypte_louvre_210_stele.jpg
I wonder what Philippe J. Rushton has to say about all these portraits. Maybe he'll say that the paint has gotten "darker" with age or that it's rust! LOL Perhaps he'll dismiss all the obvious black figures as being 'Nubian' servants. I'm still waiting on portraits of white ancient Egyptians. Posted by Nubian1984 (Member # 16955) on :
just went through this whole tread, and saved so many pictures.
Thanks for the pictures guys.
Posted by StTigray (Member # 16910) on :
Man this is awesome stuff I am forever amazed
Posted by TheTruthHurts (Member # 17194) on :
I see no reasonable motives to refute the fact's here.Because it right here in the face's of the racist bigot people and with the lairs and cheater's that change history to suit there beliefs.The Ancient artist's of that time knew for a fact what there own people look like and draw them as best they could have to there likeness.When you see theses pictures and look closely..How can someone say with a sane mind say that the first 1 though 25 dynasty's(With the invasions and immigration of different groups that mixed over time in the last of light of ancient kemet)of Anicent Kemet were other then Native African people of the south it's literally crazy for any sane uncorrupted person in any field to think other wise.
Why do we need all these people from different country's that is not of African descent and or not from Africa.Coming into Africa and doing there own study's and test and undoing what ancient Africa people have done for many years.Just because they dislike us and give us false information and distort images and statues and dig up mummies (African People) for there own greed need's and there purpose's is really sicken to say the least.
I read somewhere that when they first started digging up ancient mummies that they used to grain them up make them into to fine powder(Thinking that it hide some magically power's which is fucking wrong) and put it on them which is sick.They are what we call Europeans at that time and now they want to be the very people that there ancestors grain up and put on there skin..yea right .Disrespecting your ancient family and digging them up is something that (Only namely Europeans and and some others do) and Native African people would!!! not do that for greed and for the wrong purposes.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Should we really be using Egyptian art as an argument for their biological affinities? The skin tones aren't necessarily realistic, unless you want to argue that ancient Egypt was populated by red men and yellow women.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
This is one of not many images in Egyptian art where a woman doesn't look like she's wearing a wig. Any more images of women wearing just their natural hair like this?
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Should we really be using Egyptian art as an argument for their biological affinities? The skin tones aren't necessarily realistic, unless you want to argue that ancient Egypt was populated by red men and yellow women.
Yes, only as long as you realize these are portraits of black Africans depicted in natural brown tones with yellow and other colors used for symbolic purposes. All women were not depicted as yellow in AE art a great many were also depicted in the same shades as the men. Does anyone question the whiteness of the Greeks even when their art depicted the men as black skinned and the women as white? First and foremost it is art and therefore it has an artistic and cultural context as well as an ethnographic context. ALL Greek art is not explicitly realistic enough to use as a basis for determining physical features. Yet some of it is. The same goes for AE art.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Politics of photographing Egyptian art:
quote: Egypt photos A couple of people have asked me to post somewhere (like here) a few photos of my work in Egypt. I of course took thousands (actually literally) of them, most of them in and around Deir El-Bahari and the Temple of Hatshepsut in particular. Where they show any unpublished part of a site for which somebody else has the concession however, publishing these here would require the agreement of the Mission director (and possibly now under new rules maybe somebody from the SCA), and I have not applied for (and cannot be bothered to apply for) such permission. I could of course flaunt that requirement, but am not inclined to.
But here's one that should be OK. The notice says you cannot photo the Temple of Hatshepsut at the end of the road from afar without having a ticket... the ticket office is of course far in the distance... by the temple (duh). Note the big black police car speeding towards me as I take the photo (OK, carefully chosen moment, I knew what time the afternoon shift goes home and waited). Now, while I understand the attitude that the SCA feel they need to control the availability of photos of iconic monuments (English Heritage debated the same thing with monuments like Stonehenge a few years back), this is obviously futile and counter-productive.
Worse still, you can no longer take photos in the Valley of Kings, no not just in the royal tombs, but in the Valley itself outside them. You are now supposed to surrender your camera at the entrance. This was because so many tourists ignored the ban on damaging and distracting photography in the tombs (scil. the gaffirs guarding the tombs were not stopping tourists from doing this, just garnering "bakshish" to allow them to). If I want to show you a photo of me standing in my pith helmet and jodphurs in front of the entrance to KV62 I cannot (well, I can, because have one from last time I was there two years ago). This is just nuts. More to the point, nowhere can one buy - even a extortionate tourist rate prices - ANY decent photos produced by the SCA of any of the tombs - inside or out. Unless of course you buy one of Zahi Hawass's latest lavishly illustrated books and rip the pages out. Anyhow here's the best I could do for a photo of the Valley of Kings this year. That's illegal too as you are not supposed to be in the hills above it either - despite all the guidebooks telling you what a wonderful walk it is (recommended is Ken Weeks' "Luxor"). My guess is that the more the Egyptians try to stop people doing things while on holday (walking around, taking photos) the more people are going to go off Egypt as a holiday destination, which would be a shame.
Of course it comes off like folks have something to hide and want to manipulate more than anything else.
Posted by StTigray (Member # 16910) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Racism as a powerful ideology--once it has taken hold of the mind--can take on the symptoms of and is frighteningly akin to that of a mental disorder, in that reality or the interpretation thereof becomes eskewed.
Thus, when Petrie noticed the "negroid" features of certain queens he came to the conclusion that Pharoahs married women of a "lower" type.
When white explorers came across the remains of advanced cultures or civilizations in 'Sub-Sahara', they automatically assumed them to be work of foreigners like Phoenicians or even Egyptians (who were thought to be "caucasians"). Even when no such evidence supports such a thing and all of the available evidence points to the opposite-- that the native peoples were responsible.
It is because of such sensless irrationality that I and others agree that racism is a mental disorder. People like Horemheb are ones who suffer from it, and places in the net like "Racial Reality", "Stormfront", "American Rennaisance" etc. are the unofficial nuthouses of people who suffer from such.
And the same is true for non-white racists, even black ones like Clyde Winters and his followers (Marc Washington, Lord, etc.) who mimic the same bias and illogical modus operandi as the white racists he goes against, when he ignores all valid linguistic data and writes (makes up) his own or distorts genetic evidence all to make up the 'history' or his fantasies in which blacks created civilization everywhere in the globe, including Europe and white people did not appear until the Middle Ages just appearing out of nowhere and displacing (eradicating?) the true black indigenees of Europe. And I assume this was the case with East Asia (China) and the Americas.
Again, racism is a mental disorder!
INteresting
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
bump!!! bump!!!!
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Are these Western Europeans!!!
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Tomb of Mentuherkhepeshef son of Ramses IX, dynasty 19:
LOL, So Greek civilization is a colony of Egypt after All...Im gonna go but Black Athena and I hop Mary Lefcrowitz and her people will now retract their conclusions.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
^^
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^^ Indeed. I can definitely see the red hair and blue eyes of Mentuherkhepeshef. Why even the name sounds so Celtic! LMAO Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
up, for the retard trolls in this forum.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
You think our resident 'art expert' lyingass would make some reply to a thread that is 8 pages long in Egyptian artwork.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
...
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Painting of Scene in Tomb of Tjay (Met Museum Collection Wilkinson painting):
Truthcentric, did you ever notice how that the Egyptians in some of this art look black
while others like this below look like they don't look black or perhaps uncertain
look at the features, although you have some Somalis and Ethiopians who don't have the broad features this guy doesn't look like them. They usually have longer narrower heads.
or look at this;
look at the very small nose with small nostrils doesn't even look Semitic like some horn Africans, doesn't look broad like SSA noses. Some of the ancient Egyptians definately look like black Africans to me. Others like the above look like they might be Levantines or Mediterraneans, Sea people, Europeans or something, or some mix thereof. Doesn't look African to me. I could be wrong but find me a tribe of people with small noses like that, not single anecdotal examples. Or look at the relief in the center, the nose is slightly upturned. Some of the Ethiopians and Somalis have straight noses but they point downward like the Semites. This nose does not look like that.
I realize that that's politically incorrect and not a political advantage for black people but that's the way I see it.
I could sort of ignore what my eyes are telling me and say dark skin, in Africa, he's one of ours but I just feel dishonest in doing so. And the Levant and mid East are so close by, closer than the horn. The culture seems multi racial to me, it's a natural conclusion. Why is it such an issue? because people want have it all one way or the other. I apologize to the other black people in this forum for this but I think the sense of a political advantage here is greatly overestimated.
Posted by Apocalypse (Member # 8587) on :
Seated statue of Pharoah Menkaure
Posted by Apocalypse (Member # 8587) on :
Glass Inlay Ptolemaic period.
Posted by Apocalypse (Member # 8587) on :
Shawabti box and shawabtis, New Kingdom, reign of Ramesses II, ca. 1279–1213 b.c. Egyptian; From the tomb of Sennedjem, Deir el-Medina, western Thebes Painted wood; limestone and ink
Source: Shawabti box and shawabtis [Egyptian; From the tomb of Sennedjem, Deir el-Medina, western Thebes] (86.1.14,.18,.21) | Heilbrunn Timeline of Art History | The Metropolitan Museum of Art Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
^ Beautiful! Beautiful! Wow! Much of this stuff is new to me as I've never seen them before!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
I was waiting for the dumb liar to make her move..
quote:Originally posted by the lyingass: Truthcentric, did you ever notice how that the Egyptians in some of this art look black
while others like this below look like they don't look black or perhaps uncertain
And exactly how is the mahogany complexioned man above not black??!
quote:look at the features, although you have some Somalis and Ethiopians who don't have the broad features this guy doesn't look like them. They usually have longer narrower heads.
Apparently it hasn't occurred to you that blacks variation is greater than just the Horn or the Congo, you dummy.
quote:or look at this;
look at the very small nose with small nostrils doesn't even look Semitic like some horn Africans, doesn't look broad like SSA noses. Some of the ancient Egyptians definitely look like black Africans to me. Others like the above look like they might be Levantines or Mediterraneans, Sea people, Europeans or something, or some mix thereof. Doesn't look African to me. I could be wrong but find me a tribe of people with small noses like that, not single anecdotal examples. Or look at the relief in the center, the nose is slightly upturned. Some of the Ethiopians and Somalis have straight noses but they point downward like the Semites. This nose does not look like that.
Again you fail to grasp the phenotypic diversity of Africans which correlates to their genetic diversity. If YOU haven't seen Africans with very small noses, that's too bad for you. I live near a divers African community and I have. But it doesn't matter what I say because your anti-African race-mix ideology won't allow you to accept anything that counters it.
quote:I realize that that's politically incorrect and not a political advantage for black people but that's the way I see it.
And I realize that it is not a matter of politics but FACTS, and how you see things is also irrelevant as your views are skewed by your ideology.
quote:I could sort of ignore what my eyes are telling me and say dark skin, in Africa, he's one of ours but I just feel dishonest in doing so. And the Levant and mid East are so close by, closer than the horn. The culture seems multi racial to me, it's a natural conclusion. Why is it such an issue? because people want have it all one way or the other. I apologize to the other black people in this forum for this but I think the sense of a political advantage here is greatly overestimated.
And you could say whatever the hell you want including your claim that you are African (even though everyone knows otherwise). Your reasoning of Egypt's geographic proximity to the Levant is also flawed as was explained to you countless times.-- Egypt is STILL in and very much part of Africa. Since the Mideast is right next to Africa/Egypt, why can't it be argued that the Mideast is an extension of Africa instead of Asia?? In fact, geologically we know this to be true with the Arabian plate breaking away from Africa and the landscape of both the Levant and Arabia continuous with that of Africa. We know that since the Pleistocene Africans have migrated from Africa into the Near East giving rise to the Kebarans, Natufians, and Harifians-- all described as having African even "Sub-Saharan" traits. But keep telling yourself the lie of Eurasian input being responsible for Egyptian civilization if it puts you at ease from knowing blacks by themselves created one of the great sophisticated cultures of the ancient world. Even though such a culture has been shown to you in detail as being African ONLY. Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: And the Levant and mid East are so close by, closer than the horn. The culture seems multi racial to me, it's a natural conclusion.
Yes, there were a few communities of Asiatics in Egypt, particularly during the Middle and New Kingdom. You know how we know this? Because their names are distinct from those of the majority of the Egyptian population. Egypt may have had some ethnic minorities, but it was founded by blacks who formed the majority of the population. Egypt was no less a black civilization than America is a white one.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: And the Levant and mid East are so close by, closer than the horn. The culture seems multi racial to me, it's a natural conclusion.
Yes, there were a few communities of Asiatics in Egypt, particularly during the Middle and New Kingdom. You know how we know this? Because their names are distinct from those of the majority of the Egyptian population. Egypt may have had some ethnic minorities, but it was founded by blacks who formed the majority of the population. Egypt was no less a black civilization than America is a white one.
America is 1/3 non-white
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Egypt is STILL in and very much part of Africa. Since the Mideast is right next to Africa/Egypt, why can't it be argued that the Mideast is an extension of Africa instead of Asia?? In fact, geologically we know this to be true with the Arabian plate breaking away from Africa and the landscape of both the Levant and Arabia continuous with that of Africa.
yes the naming is arbitrary, you could say there was input from the the Middle Easterners who were "Africans" Similarly Greeks who came up with the concept of continents debated over including what we now call Africa as part of Asia
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Speaking of which, it is the Greeks themselves who were mixed or multiracial as was shown here! So basically your point about geographic proximity is null and void. Glad you could rectify that.
quote:Originally posted by the lionass: America is 1/3 non-white
You mean modern America as opposed to ancient America which was 100% non-white. And ancient Egypt which has nothing to do with modern America.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: America is 1/3 non-white
That's still a minority, even if it's a large one, and I didn't mean to imply that ancient Egyptians were 1/3 non-black. I rather meant that they were no less black than America is white.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Speaking of which, it is the Greeks themselves who were mixed or multiracial as was shown here! So basically your point about geographic proximity is null and void. Glad you could rectify that.
quote:Originally posted by the lionass: America is 1/3 non-white
You mean modern America as opposed to ancient America which was 100% non-white. And ancient Egypt which has nothing to do with modern America.
As you can see above when Truthcentric said America he meant modern America, read back
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Again you fail to grasp the phenotypic diversity of Africans which correlates to their genetic diversity.
I ma an African American. I live in an area about 40% black. I gave been to Africa twice. I am well aware of African diversity. Why do you keep changing the subject? The subject is not a large continent called Africa. The subject is Egypt. Looking at comparisons it would make much more sense to draw a 1000 mile radius around Egypt but you would rather have racial nationalism based on terms devised by Europeans, namely Africa and Asia.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Quit with the lies already. Not too long ago you said you were West African. Now you are saying you are an African American who's been to West Africa.
Whatever you are, you are an anti-African ignoramus. That's for certain.
Now this thread is about Ancient Egyptian art, not YOUR twisted racial fancies!
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Quit with the lies already. Not too long ago you said you were West African. Now you are saying you are an African American who's been to West Africa.
Whatever you are, you are an anti-African ignoramus. That's for certain.
Now this thread is about Ancient Egyptian art, not YOUR twisted racial fancies!
I am of West African descent you damn fool. My grandmother was born there.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
For this post I'll be concentrating on Egyptian depictions of their gods. I think that if anyone really wants to racially analyze Egyptian artwork, they should look at images of the gods, as their facial features are probably more likely to represent the Egyptian ideal than the faces of individual mortals:
Amun
Ptah
Osiris
Neith
Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
If the Egyptians describe themselves as black like this picture.
Why are there no more pictures like that of the Egyptians? Only in color, not black.
It has images of black Egyptians Like this picture? I'm not talking about the Nubians.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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That may well be, but when you have tomb paintings showing the Egyptian people in their obvious dark brown (black) coloring or even those depicting stereotypical features like round noses and full lips etc. and Eurocentrics still call these "caucasians", would that not border on psychosis??
...and these Ndebele are some FINE women!!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
