Alot of threads sprouted reacently about Blacks and intelligence I thought about responding directly, but that would violate my stance against supporting troll threads. So I am here to break certain sterotypes about Blacks, not for the sake of trolls who pollute this forum, but for those out there watching. A fellow NewYorker Dr Neil Degrasse Tyson: Astrophycisist.
Physicists Are Looking At How We Might Take A Trip Through Time
Ronald Mallett hadn’t even heard of physics when he read H.G. Wells’ 1895 classic, "The Time Machine," just a few months after his father died at age 33.
The 10-year old assumed that to build such a device, and see his father again, he should go into electronics, his dad’s field. It was only during his stint at the Strategic Air Command that he learned that it was physicists who were discovering seeming impossibilities: that space can bend, time can slow, particles can be waves and waves, particles. It was physics, he realized, that offered the hope of making Wells’ fiction - and his boyhood hope - a reality.
"But I was astute enough not to tell people I was interested in the physics of time travel," says Dr. Mallett, a professor of physics at the University of Connecticut, Storrs. "I chose black holes as my cover story, and didn’t come out of the time-travel closet until 1998."
The closet is emptying fast. Ever since Einstein formulated his general theory of relativity in 1915, describing gravity as dips and curves in the single entity called space-time, researchers have been finding hidden gems in its equations. Those equations permit numerous "solutions," or particular shapes of space-time - from deep wells to gentle waves. One solution, for instance, implies the existence of black holes; at first only theorized, black holes have since become, through astronomical observations, members in good standing of the cosmic menageries. Now physicists are taking seriously the newest solutions, those that imply geometries of space-time that actually allow travel to the past.
Prof. Mallet theorized in 2000 that if a powerful laser light were bent into a ring, it would create a region at its center where space-time curves back on itself so severely that someone proceeding into the future would wind up back when he started, in his own past. In 1991, Princeton University astrophysicist J. Richard Gott theorized that cosmic strings, thinner than an atomic nucleus but infinitely long and more massive than a galaxy, could warp space-time enough to create these paths to the past, called closed timelike curves.
But it is a 1989 discovery, by Caltech’s Kip Thorne and colleagues, that has done the most to get the physics of time travel into reputable scientific journals. They theorized that general relativity permits wormholes - tunnels that cut across a curved region of space-time, connecting here to there and now to then. Earlier calculations suggested that wormholes don’t stay open long enough to serve as practical time machines, but Prof. Thorne showed that, with enough negative energy, they can be propped open.
That’s how the heroes of "Timeline," in theaters next week, travel back to the 14th century (and immediately plunge into nonstop sword-wielding, horse-galloping mayhem). In the film, scientists accidentally discover a wormhole, one end of which is anchored in 1357 France. That gets a thumbs up from physicists: If wormholes and closed timelike curves exist, they are going to be found, not created. You’d have to settle for whatever endpoints they have.
Just because wormholes emerge from general relativity doesn’t mean they emerge in reality, of course. But physicists take them seriously because of their experience with black holes, which were first only theoretical, too. Maybe wormholes, too, will move from theory to reality.
"In physics," says physicist Michio Kaku of the City College of New York, "that which is not forbidden is mandatory. If you want to forbid some bizarre phenomenon, you have to kill it by showing that a law of physics prevents it."
No one has yet done that with wormholes or time travel. The energy needed to prop open a wormhole is about what you would get by converting the mass of a large star into energy through E = mc2. But that is practical, not a fundamental, objection. British cosmologist Stephen Hawking once proposed a "chronology protection conjecture" that would forbid time travel as a result of the laws of physics, but has since retreated.
That has brought a sea change to physics. "A dozen years ago, if you talked about time travel your name would be mud," says Prof. Kaku. "But now we feel that by exploring the possibility of time travel, we are testing the extremes of the laws of physics, which may lead to new physics."
If new physics is lurking anywhere, a good place to check is the sub-subatomic world of "quantum foam." In this roiling microworld, space itself is holey, and wormholes and black holes 100 billion billion times smaller than a proton constantly pop into existence (as the blip that became our universe probably did) only to quickly disappear (as our universe didn’t). But it might be possible to pump enough energy into an otherwise transitory wormhole it to keep it around.
Physicists even have the engineering specs for how to then turn a wormhole into a time tunnel. Anchor one mouth in the present - say Nov. 21, 2010. Drag the other mouth through space at nearly the speed of light, until Nov. 21, 2011. Moving objects age more slowly than stationary ones, according to relativity. If you hop inside the wormhole, therefore, you could travel to any point in time in-between, back to 2010.
And there’s the rub. Time travelers could never reach a time earlier than when a wormhole was engineered. No wonder none have visited us.
Famous Black Mathematicians Times have witnessed many well-known mathematicians who have come up with interesting new discoveries in the field of mathematics. To know about some of the famous Black mathematicians, read on… Mathematics has continued to interest many, since centuries. Several mathematicians and theorists who, through their theorems and corollaries have found solutions to many complex mathematical problems and have shaped the modern-day mathematics. Here is a look at some of the very famous Black mathematicians.
Benjamin Banneker: Born on November 9, 1731, Benjamin Banneker was a Black mathematician, astronomer, clockmaker and publisher. During his childhood years, he was trained in reading and doing basic arithmetic, by his grandmother and a Quaker schoolmaster. When he was capable of helping his parents in working at their farm, he stopped taking formal education. When Banneker was 21 years of age, he saw Andrew Ellicott's pocket watch. Seeing his keen interest in the watch, Ellicott presented it to Banneker. Banneker started examining the watch and it’s working. He designed huge replicas of the watch by calculating the gear assemblies and made a huge striking clock. This invention of Benjamin Banneker served as an accurate timepiece and he earned recognition as a clockmaker. Banneker contributed to the field of astronomy, by devising calculations to predict solar and lunar eclipses.
He is famous for his puzzles in mathematics and trigonometry. His puzzle, 'Trigonometry' demonstrates his expertise in logarithms. People still wonder which logarithmic table he might have used. He was instrumental in devising a method of finding the lengths of the sides of an equilateral triangle inscribed in a circle, whose diameter is known. His pioneering discoveries that were to bring a positive change to mathematics make evident the genius in him. He died in 1806 but is remembered as one of the famous Black mathematicians.
Kelly Miller: Born on July 23, 1863, Kelly Miller was a mathematician and also a sociologist, newspaper columnist, author and essayist. He graduated from the Howard University in 1886 and was the first black person to be admitted to Johns Hopkins University. He was a law graduate from the Howard School of Law. In 1890, he was hired as a professor at the Howard University. During his service there, he introduced sociology in the curriculum and gave a new dimension to the classical curriculum during his tenure as a dean of the College of Arts and Sciences. His articles and essays were published in various magazines, newspapers and included in various famous books. He endorsed the concept of a symmetrical development through education, which offered both vocational and intellectual instruction.
Elbert Frank Cox: Born on December 5, 1895, Elbert Frank Cox grew up to become the first black person in the world to receive a Ph.D. in mathematics. Since childhood, he exhibited a flair for mathematics and physics. He was also talented in playing violin. He took up a major in mathematics at the Indiana University. He continued his studies, first in the Cornell University and then in the McGill University in Montreal. Being a Black, he had to face difficulties in his pursuit of mathematics, but he rose above them to earn a doctorate in that subject. Cox expanded the work on Euler polynomials and introduced generalized Euler polynomials as also the generalized Boole summation formula and studied several specialized polynomials. From 1925, Cox served the West Virginia State College as a teacher of mathematics and physics. In 1930, he started teaching math at the Howard University. He was an enthusiastic professor and extremely popular among his students. His death in 1969 meant the loss of an excellent teacher and a renowned Black mathematician.
David Blackwell: Born on April 14, 1919, David Blackwell was a Professor Emeritus of Statistics at the University of California. The famous Rao-Blackwell Theorem that deals with transformation of estimators in statistics has been named after this Black mathematician. He was the first African American to make it to the National Academy of Sciences. Since at early age of 16, his love for mathematics kept growing. Accepting the fact that a Black would be allowed to teach only in black colleges, he started applying to various black colleges. He served in the Southern University and then at the Clarke College in Atlanta. In 1946, he became an associate professor in the Howard University. In 1955, he became a professor of statistics at UC, Berkeley. He is among some of the most noted Black mathematicians, times have seen.
J. Earnest Wilkins, Jr.: Born on November 27, 1923, Wilkins was a famous Black mathematicians who entered the University of Chicago aged 13 and completed a B.S in mathematics in four years. Only two years later, he earned a PhD in mathematics from the University of Chicago. He published several papers on a wide range of subjects that included linear differential equations, integrals, differential geometry as also optics and nuclear engineering. Presently, Wilkins serves at the Clark Atlanta University as a Distinguished Professor of applied mathematics and mathematical physics. He finds a place in the list of famous African American mathematicians.
This was an overview of some of the famous Black mathematicians. They have revolutionized the present-day mathematics through their work.
By Manali Oak Published: 7/28/2008
Famous African American Inventors The African American community has produced numerous outstanding scientists and inventors. Read on to learn about a few of them. Some of the famous African Americans are featured below.
Granville Woods Granville was born on April 23, 1856 in Columbus, Ohio. He started developing his skills through a machinist and blacksmith apprenticeship in a machine shop. Granville taught himself electronics. He later worked in a mill. He also did a mechanical engineering course in an eastern college. Later he moved to Cincinnati, Ohio and started his own machine shop. He and his brother Lyates founded the Woods Electrical Company. Granville was a talented electrician and an inventive genius. He patented over thirty-five mechanical and electrical inventions. Granville invented fifteen appliances for electric railways. In 1884, he received his first patent for an improved steam boiler furnace. He patented the Synchronous Multiplex Railway Telegraph in 1887, which made it possible to communicate between trains and between train stations from moving trains. This particular invention made train movements faster and prevented a number of accidents and collisions. He also invented an electric incubator, which incubated fifty thousand eggs at a time. Granville died on January 30, 1910 in New York City.
George Washington Carver Carver was born in 1864 in Missouri. He discovered 300 uses for peanuts, a crop with a poor reputation. He developed the crop rotation method, which revolutionized Southern agriculture. He produced dyes of 500 different shades. He invented a process for producing stains and paints from soybeans. He found hundreds of uses for sweet potatoes, pecans and soybeans. He died in 1943.
Dr. Jocelyn Simpson He co-developed a novel class of high performance piezoelectric polymers, which have superior properties over conventional materials. A piezoelectric material generates electricity when pressure is applied to it. The inventors state that this new polymer technology may dramatically improve power generation by providing a new, low cost, environmentally safe source of electricity.
Annie Easley Annie is a mathematician from Cleveland State University. She developed and implemented computer code used in determining energy, wind and solar projects for NASA. She has contributed to several NASA papers such as: ‘Effect of Turbulent Mixing on Average Fuel Temperatures in a Gas-core Nuclear Rocket Engine’, ‘Bleed Cycle: Propellant Pumping in a Gas-core Nuclear Rocket Engine System’ and ‘Performance and Operational Economics Estimated for a Coal Gasification Combined-Cycle Cogeneration Powerplant’.
John Henry Thompson John earned a degree in Computer Science and Visual Studies from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in 1983. He invented lingo programming used in Macromedia Director and Shockwave. As chief scientist at Macromedia he developed a number of products including VideoWorks II, Macromedia Director, Action and The Videoworks Accelerator.
Dr. Percy Julian Percy was born on April 11, 1899 in Montgomery, Alabama. He produced over 100 patents including two synthetic hormones (progesterone and testosterone) and cortisone. He also isolated a protein that became the basis for a fire-fighting solution in the Second World War. He died on April 19, 1975 in Chicago, Illinois.
Kenneth J. Dunkley Kenneth discovered the existence of two points located on the periphery of a person's vision that, if obstructed, will cause an ordinary picture to appear three-dimensional. This particular discovery led to the invention of the Three-Dimensional Viewing Glasses (3-DVG) which achieves 3-D effects without lenses, mirrors or optical elements of any kind.
Richard Spikes Richard patented the following inventions: •automatic car washer •automobile directional signals •self-locking rack for billiard cues •combination milk bottle opener and cover •method and apparatus for obtaining average samples and temperature of tank liquids •improved automatic gear shift transmission and shifting thereof •multiple barrel machine gun •horizontally swinging barber chair David Crosthwait David was born in Nashville, Tennessee. He obtained a Master of Engineering degree from Purdue University in 1920. He received 39 patents for various devices including refrigeration methods, heating systems, vacuum pumps and processes and temperature regulating devices. His most outstanding creation was the heating system for New York's famous Radio City Music Hall.
By Prabhakar Pillai Published: 7/1/2008
Research Psychologist - Human Factors NASA Ames Research Center Chat Archives Vernol Battiste:
"When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have him around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned." Mark Twain
Who I Am I am working on a project that we hope will revolutionize the current Air Traffic Control System. The project is called the distributed air ground concept project. Our goal in this project is to increase the efficiency'and flexibility of the system by distributing needed information to the system's users (controllers, pilots, airlines, others). Also, with the additional information users can make better decisions. We are designing a system, which takes advantage of the distributed information by allowing the users to make informed requests.
My Career Path After high school I joined the Air Force for 9 years. I spent the first four years as a Jet Engine Mechanic, and the final 5 years as an Air Traffic Controller. After completing my tour of duty in the Air Force, I decided that a career as an Air Traffic was what I wanted, so I passed the Federal Aviation Administration's (FAA) Air Traffic Control Entrance exam and was sent to Oklahoma City, OK for training. I completed the training program and worked as an FAA controller at Oakland Center.
After 4 years with the FAA as a Controller, I was fired by President Regan after the 1981 National Air Traffic Controller strike, and started a Tennis Court construction business. We sold the business after 2 years, and I went back to school where I met a professor in the Psychology department who introduced me to Human Factors: the study of man and machine integration. This field tries to combine things that a person does best with things that a machines does best. After working for a year in Dr. Klapp's lab I was offered a position at NASA, conducting human factors research.
I have a BA Psychology, California State University, Hayward, California and a MA Research Psychology, San Jose State University.
My curiosity and a burning desire to understand complex systems helped me prepare for this career. My first real experience with complex machines was working on cars with my uncle.
What I like best about my job One of the things that I like best about my job is that each day I get to work on projects that have great relevance to this country, and to have fun testing the limits of what the next generation Air Traffic Control System can be. The thing I like least about my job is the time spent away from my family while on official travel.
As a Child I was born and raised in Mobile Alabama, one of the original homes of Mardi Gras. When I was in Mrs. Robinson's third grade elementary class, I remember thinking that I wanted to be a scientist. Sometimes little boys' dreams do come true.
I have many fond memories of my teen and preteen years growing up in Roger Williams Projects. There were many children around my own age in the projects. We had a very large playground area where we played semi-organized sports, and next to the playground were thick wooded areas where we explored and captured small animals. I attended Central High School, an all black high school in Mobile. I was not a very focused student and thus achieved only average grades in high school.
I have two role models: 1) My grandmother, who raised me, and taught me the values that govern my life, 2) Professor Stuart Klapp, who introduced me to Human Factors during my undergraduate studies at California State University, Hayward University. Stuart and I started out as professor and student, and have become good friends.
As a child I did not read any books for pleasure, only schoolbooks. From my perspective, this limited my exploration to locations, and things that only I could imagine. Today I get many ideas and great pleasure from reading, but I still spend a great deal of time reading material for work. I just enjoy it a great deal more.
Advice Look for opportunities to find what you are truly interested in and pursue those interests. Try and find a career that challenges you and that is fun.
Future Plans To retire from the government and work part time as a Human Factors Consultant. If I don't retire from NASA, I would like to conduct research and design systems to support navigation and geographical orientation on other planets.
Personal Today I live in San Jose, CA with my wife and 10-year-old son. We live in the Evergreen district, located in the southeastern foothills which surround the San Francisco Bay. Another member of our family is a female Alaskan Husky, named Makita. She is very playful and very smart, and she loves little children. my hobbies include computers, fishing, restoring old cars (68 GTO, 70 Mustang, 68 Grand Prix) and woodworking
Philip Emeagwali's father went to school with Chike Obi, the first African to get a Ph.D. in Mathematics. Philip Emeagwali was born in 1954 in Nigeria. He was raised in the town of Onitsha which is located in South-Eastern Nigeria. Dubbed "Calculus" by schoolmates, Emeagwali at age 14 had mastered the subject, and could even out-calculate his instructors. Then a crisis struck. He had to drop out of school because his family could not afford to send all eight children. But he continued studying on his own, and after getting a general certificate of education from the University of London. At the age of 17, he was awarded a full scholarship to Oregon State University where he majored in math. Upon graduation, he attended George Washington University and was awarded two engineering master's degrees, one in civil engineering and the other in marine engineering, a master's in mathematics from the University of Maryland. He later achieved his doctorate from the University of Michigan in civil engineering (really scientific computing). Philip Emeagwali's greatest achievement, that warranted him the most praise, was The Connection Machine. The Connection Machine utilizes 65,000 computers linked in parallel to form the fastest computer on Earth. This computer can perform 3.1 billion calculations per second. This is faster than the theoretical top speed of the Cray Supercomputer. Though he did not "invent" The Connection Machine, his work on it won Philip Emeagwali the Gordon Bell Prize of 1989. The parallel computer was twice as fast as the previous year's computer. The Connection Machine was a great advancement over previous designs built by IBM's design teams of Thomas J. Watson, Jr. and Fred Brook.
At the Army High Performance Computing Research Center at the University of Minnesota, Emeagwali conducts research on next-generation supercomputers that will enable scientists and engineers to solve important problems in diverse fields: meteorology, energy, the environment, health, etc. He has also worked with the Maryland State Highway Administration, U.S. National Weather Service, U.S. Bureau of Reclamation, and the University of Michigan, where he conducted his award-winning research.
"I find supercomputing to be a fascinating, challenging, and critical technology that can be used to solve many important societal problems, such as predicting the spread of AIDS, and many other computational `grand challenges.' These are scientific problems whose accurate solution requires that a quadrillion or more arithmetical calculations be performed," the computer wiz says. Such problems are impossible to solve on traditional computers, but massively parallel supercomputers will make it possible.
Major Awards and Prizes Mr. Emeagwali has won many awards and prizes including:
The Nigeria Prize-Africa's largest scholarly prize.
In 2004, one of the 50 Most Important Blacks in Research Science
Philip Emeagwali designed the program and formula for the fastest computer on earth, the Connection Machine. He designed the system of parallel computers that are used by all search engines, for example Yahoo or Search.com. The parallel computer idea was also worked on by individuals such as Burton Smith and Daniel Hillis.
The Connection Machine with a program developed by Philip Emeagwali solved a 350 year old packing problem that was considered to be one of the great unsolved mathematics problems. The Connection Machine and Mr. Emeagwali also designed equations to explain how sperm swim, how polluted groundwater flows, how the Earth's interior moves and causes volcanic eruptions, finally how to recover petroleum safer and in larger quantities.
Finally Philip Emeagwali designed the Hyperball computer which is able to forecast long-term global warming patterns.
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Alot of threads sprouted reacently about Blacks and intelligence I thought about responding directly, but that would violate my stance against supporting troll threads. So I am here to break certain sterotypes about Blacks, not for the sake of trolls who pollute this forum, but for those out there watching. A fellow NewYorker Dr Neil Degrasse Tyson: Astrophycisist.
Physicists Are Looking At How We Might Take A Trip Through Time
Ronald Mallett hadn’t even heard of physics when he read H.G. Wells’ 1895 classic, "The Time Machine," just a few months after his father died at age 33.
The 10-year old assumed that to build such a device, and see his father again, he should go into electronics, his dad’s field. It was only during his stint at the Strategic Air Command that he learned that it was physicists who were discovering seeming impossibilities: that space can bend, time can slow, particles can be waves and waves, particles. It was physics, he realized, that offered the hope of making Wells’ fiction - and his boyhood hope - a reality.
"But I was astute enough not to tell people I was interested in the physics of time travel," says Dr. Mallett, a professor of physics at the University of Connecticut, Storrs. "I chose black holes as my cover story, and didn’t come out of the time-travel closet until 1998."
The closet is emptying fast. Ever since Einstein formulated his general theory of relativity in 1915, describing gravity as dips and curves in the single entity called space-time, researchers have been finding hidden gems in its equations. Those equations permit numerous "solutions," or particular shapes of space-time - from deep wells to gentle waves. One solution, for instance, implies the existence of black holes; at first only theorized, black holes have since become, through astronomical observations, members in good standing of the cosmic menageries. Now physicists are taking seriously the newest solutions, those that imply geometries of space-time that actually allow travel to the past.
Prof. Mallet theorized in 2000 that if a powerful laser light were bent into a ring, it would create a region at its center where space-time curves back on itself so severely that someone proceeding into the future would wind up back when he started, in his own past. In 1991, Princeton University astrophysicist J. Richard Gott theorized that cosmic strings, thinner than an atomic nucleus but infinitely long and more massive than a galaxy, could warp space-time enough to create these paths to the past, called closed timelike curves.
But it is a 1989 discovery, by Caltech’s Kip Thorne and colleagues, that has done the most to get the physics of time travel into reputable scientific journals. They theorized that general relativity permits wormholes - tunnels that cut across a curved region of space-time, connecting here to there and now to then. Earlier calculations suggested that wormholes don’t stay open long enough to serve as practical time machines, but Prof. Thorne showed that, with enough negative energy, they can be propped open.
That’s how the heroes of "Timeline," in theaters next week, travel back to the 14th century (and immediately plunge into nonstop sword-wielding, horse-galloping mayhem). In the film, scientists accidentally discover a wormhole, one end of which is anchored in 1357 France. That gets a thumbs up from physicists: If wormholes and closed timelike curves exist, they are going to be found, not created. You’d have to settle for whatever endpoints they have.
Just because wormholes emerge from general relativity doesn’t mean they emerge in reality, of course. But physicists take them seriously because of their experience with black holes, which were first only theoretical, too. Maybe wormholes, too, will move from theory to reality.
"In physics," says physicist Michio Kaku of the City College of New York, "that which is not forbidden is mandatory. If you want to forbid some bizarre phenomenon, you have to kill it by showing that a law of physics prevents it."
No one has yet done that with wormholes or time travel. The energy needed to prop open a wormhole is about what you would get by converting the mass of a large star into energy through E = mc2. But that is practical, not a fundamental, objection. British cosmologist Stephen Hawking once proposed a "chronology protection conjecture" that would forbid time travel as a result of the laws of physics, but has since retreated.
That has brought a sea change to physics. "A dozen years ago, if you talked about time travel your name would be mud," says Prof. Kaku. "But now we feel that by exploring the possibility of time travel, we are testing the extremes of the laws of physics, which may lead to new physics."
If new physics is lurking anywhere, a good place to check is the sub-subatomic world of "quantum foam." In this roiling microworld, space itself is holey, and wormholes and black holes 100 billion billion times smaller than a proton constantly pop into existence (as the blip that became our universe probably did) only to quickly disappear (as our universe didn’t). But it might be possible to pump enough energy into an otherwise transitory wormhole it to keep it around.
Physicists even have the engineering specs for how to then turn a wormhole into a time tunnel. Anchor one mouth in the present - say Nov. 21, 2010. Drag the other mouth through space at nearly the speed of light, until Nov. 21, 2011. Moving objects age more slowly than stationary ones, according to relativity. If you hop inside the wormhole, therefore, you could travel to any point in time in-between, back to 2010.
And there’s the rub. Time travelers could never reach a time earlier than when a wormhole was engineered. No wonder none have visited us.
Famous Black Mathematicians Times have witnessed many well-known mathematicians who have come up with interesting new discoveries in the field of mathematics. To know about some of the famous Black mathematicians, read on… Mathematics has continued to interest many, since centuries. Several mathematicians and theorists who, through their theorems and corollaries have found solutions to many complex mathematical problems and have shaped the modern-day mathematics. Here is a look at some of the very famous Black mathematicians.
Benjamin Banneker: Born on November 9, 1731, Benjamin Banneker was a Black mathematician, astronomer, clockmaker and publisher. During his childhood years, he was trained in reading and doing basic arithmetic, by his grandmother and a Quaker schoolmaster. When he was capable of helping his parents in working at their farm, he stopped taking formal education. When Banneker was 21 years of age, he saw Andrew Ellicott's pocket watch. Seeing his keen interest in the watch, Ellicott presented it to Banneker. Banneker started examining the watch and it’s working. He designed huge replicas of the watch by calculating the gear assemblies and made a huge striking clock. This invention of Benjamin Banneker served as an accurate timepiece and he earned recognition as a clockmaker. Banneker contributed to the field of astronomy, by devising calculations to predict solar and lunar eclipses.
He is famous for his puzzles in mathematics and trigonometry. His puzzle, 'Trigonometry' demonstrates his expertise in logarithms. People still wonder which logarithmic table he might have used. He was instrumental in devising a method of finding the lengths of the sides of an equilateral triangle inscribed in a circle, whose diameter is known. His pioneering discoveries that were to bring a positive change to mathematics make evident the genius in him. He died in 1806 but is remembered as one of the famous Black mathematicians.
Kelly Miller: Born on July 23, 1863, Kelly Miller was a mathematician and also a sociologist, newspaper columnist, author and essayist. He graduated from the Howard University in 1886 and was the first black person to be admitted to Johns Hopkins University. He was a law graduate from the Howard School of Law. In 1890, he was hired as a professor at the Howard University. During his service there, he introduced sociology in the curriculum and gave a new dimension to the classical curriculum during his tenure as a dean of the College of Arts and Sciences. His articles and essays were published in various magazines, newspapers and included in various famous books. He endorsed the concept of a symmetrical development through education, which offered both vocational and intellectual instruction.
Elbert Frank Cox: Born on December 5, 1895, Elbert Frank Cox grew up to become the first black person in the world to receive a Ph.D. in mathematics. Since childhood, he exhibited a flair for mathematics and physics. He was also talented in playing violin. He took up a major in mathematics at the Indiana University. He continued his studies, first in the Cornell University and then in the McGill University in Montreal. Being a Black, he had to face difficulties in his pursuit of mathematics, but he rose above them to earn a doctorate in that subject. Cox expanded the work on Euler polynomials and introduced generalized Euler polynomials as also the generalized Boole summation formula and studied several specialized polynomials. From 1925, Cox served the West Virginia State College as a teacher of mathematics and physics. In 1930, he started teaching math at the Howard University. He was an enthusiastic professor and extremely popular among his students. His death in 1969 meant the loss of an excellent teacher and a renowned Black mathematician.
David Blackwell: Born on April 14, 1919, David Blackwell was a Professor Emeritus of Statistics at the University of California. The famous Rao-Blackwell Theorem that deals with transformation of estimators in statistics has been named after this Black mathematician. He was the first African American to make it to the National Academy of Sciences. Since at early age of 16, his love for mathematics kept growing. Accepting the fact that a Black would be allowed to teach only in black colleges, he started applying to various black colleges. He served in the Southern University and then at the Clarke College in Atlanta. In 1946, he became an associate professor in the Howard University. In 1955, he became a professor of statistics at UC, Berkeley. He is among some of the most noted Black mathematicians, times have seen.
J. Earnest Wilkins, Jr.: Born on November 27, 1923, Wilkins was a famous Black mathematicians who entered the University of Chicago aged 13 and completed a B.S in mathematics in four years. Only two years later, he earned a PhD in mathematics from the University of Chicago. He published several papers on a wide range of subjects that included linear differential equations, integrals, differential geometry as also optics and nuclear engineering. Presently, Wilkins serves at the Clark Atlanta University as a Distinguished Professor of applied mathematics and mathematical physics. He finds a place in the list of famous African American mathematicians.
This was an overview of some of the famous Black mathematicians. They have revolutionized the present-day mathematics through their work.
By Manali Oak Published: 7/28/2008
Famous African American Inventors The African American community has produced numerous outstanding scientists and inventors. Read on to learn about a few of them. Some of the famous African Americans are featured below.
Granville Woods Granville was born on April 23, 1856 in Columbus, Ohio. He started developing his skills through a machinist and blacksmith apprenticeship in a machine shop. Granville taught himself electronics. He later worked in a mill. He also did a mechanical engineering course in an eastern college. Later he moved to Cincinnati, Ohio and started his own machine shop. He and his brother Lyates founded the Woods Electrical Company. Granville was a talented electrician and an inventive genius. He patented over thirty-five mechanical and electrical inventions. Granville invented fifteen appliances for electric railways. In 1884, he received his first patent for an improved steam boiler furnace. He patented the Synchronous Multiplex Railway Telegraph in 1887, which made it possible to communicate between trains and between train stations from moving trains. This particular invention made train movements faster and prevented a number of accidents and collisions. He also invented an electric incubator, which incubated fifty thousand eggs at a time. Granville died on January 30, 1910 in New York City.
George Washington Carver Carver was born in 1864 in Missouri. He discovered 300 uses for peanuts, a crop with a poor reputation. He developed the crop rotation method, which revolutionized Southern agriculture. He produced dyes of 500 different shades. He invented a process for producing stains and paints from soybeans. He found hundreds of uses for sweet potatoes, pecans and soybeans. He died in 1943.
Dr. Jocelyn Simpson He co-developed a novel class of high performance piezoelectric polymers, which have superior properties over conventional materials. A piezoelectric material generates electricity when pressure is applied to it. The inventors state that this new polymer technology may dramatically improve power generation by providing a new, low cost, environmentally safe source of electricity.
Annie Easley Annie is a mathematician from Cleveland State University. She developed and implemented computer code used in determining energy, wind and solar projects for NASA. She has contributed to several NASA papers such as: ‘Effect of Turbulent Mixing on Average Fuel Temperatures in a Gas-core Nuclear Rocket Engine’, ‘Bleed Cycle: Propellant Pumping in a Gas-core Nuclear Rocket Engine System’ and ‘Performance and Operational Economics Estimated for a Coal Gasification Combined-Cycle Cogeneration Powerplant’.
John Henry Thompson John earned a degree in Computer Science and Visual Studies from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in 1983. He invented lingo programming used in Macromedia Director and Shockwave. As chief scientist at Macromedia he developed a number of products including VideoWorks II, Macromedia Director, Action and The Videoworks Accelerator.
Dr. Percy Julian Percy was born on April 11, 1899 in Montgomery, Alabama. He produced over 100 patents including two synthetic hormones (progesterone and testosterone) and cortisone. He also isolated a protein that became the basis for a fire-fighting solution in the Second World War. He died on April 19, 1975 in Chicago, Illinois.
Kenneth J. Dunkley Kenneth discovered the existence of two points located on the periphery of a person's vision that, if obstructed, will cause an ordinary picture to appear three-dimensional. This particular discovery led to the invention of the Three-Dimensional Viewing Glasses (3-DVG) which achieves 3-D effects without lenses, mirrors or optical elements of any kind.
Richard Spikes Richard patented the following inventions: •automatic car washer •automobile directional signals •self-locking rack for billiard cues •combination milk bottle opener and cover •method and apparatus for obtaining average samples and temperature of tank liquids •improved automatic gear shift transmission and shifting thereof •multiple barrel machine gun •horizontally swinging barber chair David Crosthwait David was born in Nashville, Tennessee. He obtained a Master of Engineering degree from Purdue University in 1920. He received 39 patents for various devices including refrigeration methods, heating systems, vacuum pumps and processes and temperature regulating devices. His most outstanding creation was the heating system for New York's famous Radio City Music Hall.
By Prabhakar Pillai Published: 7/1/2008
Research Psychologist - Human Factors NASA Ames Research Center Chat Archives Vernol Battiste:
"When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have him around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned." Mark Twain
Who I Am I am working on a project that we hope will revolutionize the current Air Traffic Control System. The project is called the distributed air ground concept project. Our goal in this project is to increase the efficiency'and flexibility of the system by distributing needed information to the system's users (controllers, pilots, airlines, others). Also, with the additional information users can make better decisions. We are designing a system, which takes advantage of the distributed information by allowing the users to make informed requests.
My Career Path After high school I joined the Air Force for 9 years. I spent the first four years as a Jet Engine Mechanic, and the final 5 years as an Air Traffic Controller. After completing my tour of duty in the Air Force, I decided that a career as an Air Traffic was what I wanted, so I passed the Federal Aviation Administration's (FAA) Air Traffic Control Entrance exam and was sent to Oklahoma City, OK for training. I completed the training program and worked as an FAA controller at Oakland Center.
After 4 years with the FAA as a Controller, I was fired by President Regan after the 1981 National Air Traffic Controller strike, and started a Tennis Court construction business. We sold the business after 2 years, and I went back to school where I met a professor in the Psychology department who introduced me to Human Factors: the study of man and machine integration. This field tries to combine things that a person does best with things that a machines does best. After working for a year in Dr. Klapp's lab I was offered a position at NASA, conducting human factors research.
I have a BA Psychology, California State University, Hayward, California and a MA Research Psychology, San Jose State University.
My curiosity and a burning desire to understand complex systems helped me prepare for this career. My first real experience with complex machines was working on cars with my uncle.
What I like best about my job One of the things that I like best about my job is that each day I get to work on projects that have great relevance to this country, and to have fun testing the limits of what the next generation Air Traffic Control System can be. The thing I like least about my job is the time spent away from my family while on official travel.
As a Child I was born and raised in Mobile Alabama, one of the original homes of Mardi Gras. When I was in Mrs. Robinson's third grade elementary class, I remember thinking that I wanted to be a scientist. Sometimes little boys' dreams do come true.
I have many fond memories of my teen and preteen years growing up in Roger Williams Projects. There were many children around my own age in the projects. We had a very large playground area where we played semi-organized sports, and next to the playground were thick wooded areas where we explored and captured small animals. I attended Central High School, an all black high school in Mobile. I was not a very focused student and thus achieved only average grades in high school.
I have two role models: 1) My grandmother, who raised me, and taught me the values that govern my life, 2) Professor Stuart Klapp, who introduced me to Human Factors during my undergraduate studies at California State University, Hayward University. Stuart and I started out as professor and student, and have become good friends.
As a child I did not read any books for pleasure, only schoolbooks. From my perspective, this limited my exploration to locations, and things that only I could imagine. Today I get many ideas and great pleasure from reading, but I still spend a great deal of time reading material for work. I just enjoy it a great deal more.
Advice Look for opportunities to find what you are truly interested in and pursue those interests. Try and find a career that challenges you and that is fun.
Future Plans To retire from the government and work part time as a Human Factors Consultant. If I don't retire from NASA, I would like to conduct research and design systems to support navigation and geographical orientation on other planets.
Personal Today I live in San Jose, CA with my wife and 10-year-old son. We live in the Evergreen district, located in the southeastern foothills which surround the San Francisco Bay. Another member of our family is a female Alaskan Husky, named Makita. She is very playful and very smart, and she loves little children. my hobbies include computers, fishing, restoring old cars (68 GTO, 70 Mustang, 68 Grand Prix) and woodworking
Philip Emeagwali's father went to school with Chike Obi, the first African to get a Ph.D. in Mathematics. Philip Emeagwali was born in 1954 in Nigeria. He was raised in the town of Onitsha which is located in South-Eastern Nigeria. Dubbed "Calculus" by schoolmates, Emeagwali at age 14 had mastered the subject, and could even out-calculate his instructors. Then a crisis struck. He had to drop out of school because his family could not afford to send all eight children. But he continued studying on his own, and after getting a general certificate of education from the University of London. At the age of 17, he was awarded a full scholarship to Oregon State University where he majored in math. Upon graduation, he attended George Washington University and was awarded two engineering master's degrees, one in civil engineering and the other in marine engineering, a master's in mathematics from the University of Maryland. He later achieved his doctorate from the University of Michigan in civil engineering (really scientific computing). Philip Emeagwali's greatest achievement, that warranted him the most praise, was The Connection Machine. The Connection Machine utilizes 65,000 computers linked in parallel to form the fastest computer on Earth. This computer can perform 3.1 billion calculations per second. This is faster than the theoretical top speed of the Cray Supercomputer. Though he did not "invent" The Connection Machine, his work on it won Philip Emeagwali the Gordon Bell Prize of 1989. The parallel computer was twice as fast as the previous year's computer. The Connection Machine was a great advancement over previous designs built by IBM's design teams of Thomas J. Watson, Jr. and Fred Brook.
At the Army High Performance Computing Research Center at the University of Minnesota, Emeagwali conducts research on next-generation supercomputers that will enable scientists and engineers to solve important problems in diverse fields: meteorology, energy, the environment, health, etc. He has also worked with the Maryland State Highway Administration, U.S. National Weather Service, U.S. Bureau of Reclamation, and the University of Michigan, where he conducted his award-winning research.
"I find supercomputing to be a fascinating, challenging, and critical technology that can be used to solve many important societal problems, such as predicting the spread of AIDS, and many other computational `grand challenges.' These are scientific problems whose accurate solution requires that a quadrillion or more arithmetical calculations be performed," the computer wiz says. Such problems are impossible to solve on traditional computers, but massively parallel supercomputers will make it possible.
Major Awards and Prizes Mr. Emeagwali has won many awards and prizes including:
The Nigeria Prize-Africa's largest scholarly prize.
In 2004, one of the 50 Most Important Blacks in Research Science
Philip Emeagwali designed the program and formula for the fastest computer on earth, the Connection Machine. He designed the system of parallel computers that are used by all search engines, for example Yahoo or Search.com. The parallel computer idea was also worked on by individuals such as Burton Smith and Daniel Hillis.
The Connection Machine with a program developed by Philip Emeagwali solved a 350 year old packing problem that was considered to be one of the great unsolved mathematics problems. The Connection Machine and Mr. Emeagwali also designed equations to explain how sperm swim, how polluted groundwater flows, how the Earth's interior moves and causes volcanic eruptions, finally how to recover petroleum safer and in larger quantities.
Finally Philip Emeagwali designed the Hyperball computer which is able to forecast long-term global warming patterns.
I'm sorry, but just what exactly is all of this supposed to prove. None of this discredits THE FACT that blacks, on average, show an intellectual inferiority as measured via IQ when compared to other races. And Philip Emeagwali is a liar; Here are some sites that thoughroughly debunk all of his grandiose claims:
That's why after the birth of his idea this publication editor re-edited this original draft
to this:
All for the media-hype, his rationale was that he "could see the caucasian in him".
And you're using a pretty shaky tool if the *intelligence* quotient score is your model to measure hereditary "intelligence" which.
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
Also, as the thread author mentions this has been discussed several times recently, and these 4 unrefutable posts sum up the whole IQ thing perfectly:
^^ ROFL only two pints of that stellar Stella mate.
Posted by fawal (Member # 16388) on :
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: ^I agree, he's "media hype" alright.
That's why after the birth of his idea this publication editor re-edited this original draft
to this:
All for the media-hype, his rationale was that he "could see the caucasian in him".
And you're using a pretty shaky tool if the *intelligence* quotient score is your model to measure hereditary "intelligence" which.
I'm not quite sure as to what those two pictures are supposed to prove exactly; but what I do know for a fact is that they most certainly do not rebut any of the sources that I posted (the first two of which actually came from Nigerian sites). And secondly, as far as that statement about intellectual aptitude as measured through IQ tests as being a "pretty shaky tool," you are either naive or simply misinformed, as IQ tests have been proven time and time again to be an accurate predictor of socioeconomic outcomes, this is why they continue to be used today in recruiting potential job candidates by Fortune 500 companies and US Government Institutions such as the Department of Justice and the Department of Homeland Security to separate the "wheat from the chaff." No contemporary psychologist who wants to be taken seriously denies this fact or that there is a gap in terms of black-white IQ scores; the contention lies behind what is actually responsible for this gap: whether it my be due strictly to environmental causes OR if it is simply another expression of human diversity and actually quantifies something innate.
Posted by fawal (Member # 16388) on :
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: Also, as the thread author mentions this has been discussed several times recently, and these 4 unrefutable posts sum up the whole IQ thing perfectly:
None of those sources shed any light as to why afro americans consistently score the lowest on standardized test scores, or why government funded programs such as Head Start have all but failed black american children. Am I to assume then that black americans are "less modern," than white and asian americans? I think not. Now as I have already pointed out the contention lies behind why this is, not whether or not it is a reality.
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
quote:None of those sources shed any light as to why afro americans consistently score the lowest on standardized test scores
You're illiterate then, as almost all of those posts contain information directly applicable to the subject of black american testing, the "African American Intelligence Quotient", and so on.
quote:And secondly, as far as that statement about intellectual aptitude as measured through IQ tests as being a "pretty shaky tool," you are either naive or simply misinformed, as IQ tests have been proven time and time again to be an accurate predictor of socioeconomic outcomes
More proof of lack of reading comprehension.
What i stated was that simply using simple empirical values (i.e. raw IQ score) to measure hereditability of some ambiguous and subjective trait (few ever define "intelligence") leaves alot to be desired in the way of objectivity not to mention alot of variables.
But its pretty clear from your vague and casual usage of terms like "races" that i'm probably not conversing with anyone knowledgeable.
In case - as i suspect - you are indeed clueless as to which **unaccounted for** variables i may have been referring to, here is a short intro: with each generation even the IQ value that designates mental retardation has to be raised, which in and of itsself is a controversial issue. And America as a whole at the turn of the 20th Century would have placed below that learning disabled line on today's tests. The score has been shown to correlate with social and economic class as well as environment (culture, communication, goals and even opinions). With African Americans in fixed environments scores are equal to or superior to those of mixed or white children, and black Americans outside of those environs have been shown to have scores that drop from virtual equality with whites by as much as 15 points before leveling out at age 25.
But, if you were capable of reading you'd 've known all htis was covered in the links i posted.
Anything empirical, anything aside from being *linked* with physical evidence is purely theoretical and purely uninteresting to me (physical evidence = actual gene expression -- not IQ, g-factor, "intelligence", dark hair, light skin, big teeth, long nose, etc).
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
@ Fawal if you checkout one of Neil Degrasse interview,he at onetime made to feel guilty for pursuing a career in astrophysic.He was told by someone he looked up to that our community cannot affored the luxury of such feilds,that he should enter a career that would help our people. The point of the above is what do people of differing communities tend to concrate on,For AA's the last 150yrs was about gaining political power so they can protect themselves from abuse by certain members of the majority population. case in point after Slavery and dispite grinding poverty and discrimation, Blacks began to make head way in business,education and even science,so much so that some of their communities bagan to out shine neighbouring white communities but lack of political power and this is what happend:
THE BRIDGE: Black History & Race Riots
By Darryl James
The Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. called riots the "voice of the unheard." African Americans have been speaking with this voice since the days of slavery, even as American history pretends that we sat idly by waiting for good natured whites to come and save us.
In many instances, we saved ourselves, or at least fought the good fight. It is important for us to study the history of rioting in America, so that we understand how we fought back before the 1960's. Some of those riots will provide us with a look inside the lives of African Americans before integration with surprising results.
1921--The Black Wall Street
One of the bloodiest, and perhaps most significant race riots of this nation¹s history was the Tulsa, Race Riot of 1921 in Oklahoma. Its importance stems not from its resultant death toll, but from its shroud of mystery. Shortly after the bloody massacre, history closed its mouth and attempted to erase memory of the ugly event.
The Tulsa Race Riot was also significant because it represented white backlash against Blacks who were attempting to enjoy the promises of capitalism and democracy with their own communities and their own commerce.
In Tulsa, the Black area called the "Greenwood District" was nationally recognized as an area of high entrepreneurial activity, dubbed the "Black Wall Street of America."
Blacks came from all over the nation, hearing of the economic opportunities available on The Black Wall Street, where the concept of recycling Black dollars was thriving in the face of segregation which gave Blacks no other option but to conduct commerce amongst themselves.
The community grew and flourished economically. Whites in the remainder of Tulsa were not only jealous, but afraid of what Black prosperity meant for their own growth potential.
In the same fashion as the Wilmington Race Riot of 1898, the Tulsa Race Riot erupted based on the assumption of Black sexual assault against a white woman named Sarah Page.
The white woman in question was actually having an affair with a Black man, named Dick Rowland. A hotly debated incident in a local elevator lead the white citizens to believe that the white woman, who was also married, had been attacked by Rowland.
Rowland was arrested and the white mob that came to the jail looking for their own brand of justice, commonly referred to as lynching, was met by an armed group of Blacks, preparing to defend Rowland. One of the white men tried to disarm one of the Black men and the gun discharged, setting off mass confusion and an all-out race war, complete with burning and looting.
While the Blacks were outnumbered, the majority of them were former soldiers and began to battle military style. Unfortunately, they and the Tulsa police were overwhelmed by the swelling mob of hatred, which chased even the firefighters away. Before the National Guard arrived, the Greenwood District was burned to its foundation.
Official estimates placed the death count at ten whites and twenty-six Blacks, however, later reports place the total at more than three hundred dead, with property damage in the millions.
Even though the entire area was leveled, eventually, the residents returned to their community and rebuilt it from the ground up.
Toward the end of the twentieth century, survivors of the horrible event began to speak, and in 1997, The Tulsa Race Riot Commission was formed to investigate the Tulsa Race Riot of 1921.
1923-- Rosewood, Florida
Two years after the Black Wall Street was burned to the ground, the prospering Black community in Rosewood, Florida was also burned to the ground, based on friction between the races (and the white effort to "protect" the chastity of white womanhood from the sexual advances of the Black man), as well as white hatred of any Black advancement.
Similar in origin to Tulsa, Rosewood's rioting was begun by murderous whites who assumed that a white woman had been sexually assaulted by a Black man.
Rosewood was a small community with a majority of Black citizens who owned their homes and their land. It was named for the red cedar that grew nearby.
That cedar was cut and shipped to New York to become pencils, which made the community prosperous. When the cedar ran out, so did the majority of the white citizens. Of the mostly Black population that remained, the men went to work at a sawmill in a nearby town and the women mostly did domestic work. Some Blacks even worked for Goins & Brothers, a Black-owned Naval store in Rosewood, whose owners also owned or leased most of the land in a section called "Goin's Quarters."
The town also had a general store owned by a Black family, a Black-operated sugar mill, and a private school of their own. Rosewood even had its own train station.
The difficulties between the races that led to a major race war in Rosewood, Florida had been brewing for at least three years.
In the summer of 1920, smaller incidents included the lynching of four Black men who were removed from jail after being arrested for the alleged rape of a white woman.
In November of that same year, two whites and five Blacks were killed following a dispute over voting rights. Ococee, a Black community, was destroyed, including twenty-five homes, two churches and a Masonic lodge.
In 1921 and 1922, several Black men were lynched or burned at the stake for alleged assault or murder of white women.
In January of 1923, a white woman reported an attack by a Black man she couldn't identify. The sheriff apparently decided he could make the identification and apprehended one Black man, while a posse of white vigilantes apprehended and killed another.
Descendants of Blacks in Rosewood recall that the man who assaulted the white woman was actually her white lover. They also say that the woman, who was married and having an adulterous affair, protected her reputation by creating the Black assailant.
The next day more than two hundred whites gathered and converged on Rosewood, murdering two Black men. Many of the Black citizens escape Rosewood to Gainesville by train.
Two days later, the white mob returned to Rosewood and burned every building in sight.
All tolled, eight people lost their lives--six Black and two white.
A grand jury was convened to investigate the riot, but claimed to find "insufficient evidence," and did not prosecute anyone.
In the cases of both The Black Wall Street and Rosewood, Blacks fought back even though they were outnumbered and overwhelmed. American history likes to ignore these stories mainly because they were prosperous Black neighborhoods, thriving in the era of Jim Crow.
We should remember such stories during Black History Month and year round.
And this does not including common everyday slights and humilitions,so almost by necessity Black folks had to pour their energies into the political arena or just basic survival. and dispite all that you have Black Folks that shine like the morning star.Fawal I don't know in what part of the world you live in but if it's in England then you are in trouble the Nigerians know what i am talking about,see their education stats.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Fawal,
IQ tests measure IQ and are mainly determined by the environment.
If IQ is such a big indicator of innate cognitive ability then please explain why AAs score higher than Indians(IQ 81), Iraq(83), Iran(84), Mexico(83), and most of South East Asia.
The scores that are attributed to Africa are mainly bogus because the assigned IQ of 70 is borderline retarded in the West. This means that the individual with an IQ of 70 could not lead an independent life, drive a taxi, use a cell phone, give correct change, go to the market without and escort, etc. Africans do all of those things easily. So IQ tests on that basis are just bunk--once you transfer them across cultures.
James Flynn's recent text "What is Intelligence" shows that IQ tests are truly determined by enviroenmental factors. Get his book and try to read it.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: For AA's the last 150yrs was about gaining political power so they can protect themselves from abuse by certain members of the majority population. case in point after Slavery and dispite grinding poverty and discrimation, Blacks began to make head way in business,education and even science,so much so that some of their communities bagan to out shine neighbouring white communities but lack of political power and this is what happend:
I doubt political power would have halted the destruction of Tulsa. They would have found some way to crush that example. In fact the drive for political power came from integrationists like Dubois while Garvey called for economic and cultural nationalism, in vain. Obviously blacks have not been able to defend their communities despite political power. Look at how whites destroyed a whole Phili neighborhood in the 80s claiming they were going after a cult called "Move". Blacks had political power then but that didn't stop whites from burning down the place. Also, look at black communities today from LA to NY they are "destroyed' in the sense that poverty, drugs and single parent households are the norm. AA communities are just a microcosm of Africa: powerless and depended on white patronage. Obviously the promise of freedom and liberation through civil rights has not materialized.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Lamin people like to take folks who are in dire strights and have had centuries of abuse by their own ancestors non the less then turn around and... say look at you!!! there must be something wrong with you why are you not as well off as I am while ignoring all the above^^and at the sametime trying to prepetrate the abuse in some fashion.
Here is a laundry list of things Black folks were not supposed to do:
1)compete successfully in sports against whites-done* 2)fly airplanes-see Tuskeegee Airmen-done* 3)build sucessful communites-see the above and wide spreads of places like Atlanta and hundreds more Black communities all across the states-done* 4)Be the equal or the superior of others in education-see Nigerians and Barbadians-done* 5)Excell in the higher sciences-see the above-done* 6)dominate the political scene check POTUS-done* 7) become Millionaires and billionaires by their own hands done countless times-done* Whatever they claimed we couldn't do we did and have been doing for thousands of years....DONE*
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Bogle I kinda agree and disagree at the sametime with enough political and economic power to back it up it would have been much tougher,Imagine if you have the power to remove a police chief or a senetor who is blocking your progerss thats power.
About the Philly incident,that was indeed unfortunate but that was carried out under the leadership of a black mayor and i believe a black chief of police,I think double check on the police chief is needed.
Yes the in fighting between the back to Africa movement and the intergrationist has been unfortunate and while the intergrationist won the day maybe it could be a positive thing to fight within the belly of the beast so to speak.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: About the Philly incident,that was indeed unfortunate but that was carried out under the leadership of a black mayor
Yes, my point exactly! Even with blacks in political "power" they are still powerless to change the system because having been an economically and culturally dependent entity, they were allowed into the political space by the establishment in the 60s, never forget that fact.
Black integrationists always have it backwards. Economic power is fundamental. Jews established economic power long before they were interested in assimilation into goy society. Remember Jews were powerful long before Disraeli. The Jewish Lobby in America owes its existence and power to Jewish MONEY.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Yeah but all the economic power in the world couldn't help them when mister Hitler came to.... "POWER".
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
What do you mean? They declared war on him and defeat him, because of their international economic power used western nations to defeat Germany. Hitler feared their power, read The Transfer Agreement written by a Jew.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
What is the transfer agreement?
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
It's the name of a book that details the alliance between the Zionists and Nazis to build up Jewish homeland in Palestine.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Will look it up no Barns&Nobles around here.
But the point is perhaps not either or iether but both is needed untill that happends then things will be tough for AA's and Africans.
Posted by Alhaji (Member # 11484) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: 4)Be the equal or the superior of others in education-see Nigerians and Barbadians-done*
You don't say. Come to think of it, I've been meeting dudes from Barbados in the offices for years now. Come to think of it, the only other Black guy where I'm at is from Barbados.
Posted by fawal (Member # 16388) on :
quote:You're illiterate then, as almost all of those posts contain information directly applicable to the subject of black american testing, the "African American Intelligence Quotient", and so on.
Typical afrocentrist, quick to result to silly ad hominem attacks when someone is trying to hold a rational discussion with you. I'm illiterate? I find that very hard to believe especially since I'm not the one who actually believes that the Ancient Carthaginians were all negroes, despite the fact that countless busts, coins and frescoes clearly show that they were not.
quote:But its pretty clear from your vague and casual usage of terms like "races" that i'm probably not conversing with anyone knowledgeable.
Nothing vague about it. And I find it quite hilarious that you would lambaste my use of the term, especially since almost every single thread on this board is devoted to the discussion of race.
quote:With African Americans in fixed environments scores are equal to or superior to those of mixed or white children, and black Americans outside of those environs have been shown to have scores that drop from virtual equality with whites by as much as 15 points before leveling out at age 25.
Please provide for me the exact source for this claim; I have a very busy schedule and as such I have no time to winnow through hundreds of posts. And after you have done as such, please explain to me why it is exactly this data does not correlate to reality: explain to me why it is that Howard University, a predominantly black school, has a graduation rate of 54% when the University of Virginia, a predominantly white school, has one of 92%. Why is it that black americans consistently score the lowest on standardized test scores such as the SAT, GRE, MCAT and the LSAT? At the school that I attend I am enrolled in course 20 (biological engineering), and out of 137 juniors only six are black; Why is this? In my previous post I drew reference to "Head Start," why is it that this program proved more effective in helping poor whites as opposed to poor blacks?
quote:Anything empirical, anything aside from being *linked* with physical evidence is purely theoretical and purely uninteresting to me (physical evidence = actual gene expression -- not IQ, g-factor, "intelligence", dark hair, light skin, big teeth, long nose, etc).
Its not "theoretical," its science. And yes though you are right about the fact that at present there isn't any genetic evidence to substantiate such an idea (something as complex as human intelligence would be polygenetic and as such the exact genetic sequence would take years to analyse), it really isn't all that far-fetched when you look at it in terms of simple Darwinistic principles.
Also, let me just add that I am in no way advocating the idea that blacks are less intelligent than whites or asians. I am just simply pointing out the fact that data from standarized testing does in fact show that there is a difference between groups of people in terms academic achievement: Why is it that Asian and Jewish Americans are overrepesented in science and math based careers, yet African Americans are so grossly underrepresented, despite the fact that both groups combined make up less than 10% of the total US population, while blacks make up 13%. And the excuse about all this being due to racism, really doesn't suffice, since if you look at the stats from this government site, anti-semetism is almost just as bad as anti-black racism.
Posted by fawal (Member # 16388) on :
quote:Fawal,
IQ tests measure IQ and are mainly determined by the environment.
This is completely false. IQ fundamentalists argue that it is almost entirely genetic, while egalitarian, far-left marxists agrue that it is entirely due to the environment. Reasonable evolutionary psychologists on the other hand argue that it is due to an interplay between genes and the environment. The debate revolves around to what extent IQ is genetic.
quote:If IQ is such a big indicator of innate cognitive ability then please explain why AAs score higher than Indians(IQ 81), Iraq(83), Iran(84), Mexico(83), and most of South East Asia.
The scores that are attributed to Africa are mainly bogus because the assigned IQ of 70 is borderline retarded in the West. This means that the individual with an IQ of 70 could not lead an independent life, drive a taxi, use a cell phone, give correct change, go to the market without and escort, etc. Africans do all of those things easily. So IQ tests on that basis are just bunk--once you transfer them across cultures.
Yes I agree with you. Steven Pinker is the Johnstone Professor of Psychology at Harvard University. In his most recent book "The Blank Slate: The Denial of Human Nature," he notes that IQ tests, though precise in that they statistically predict life outcomes like school and job performance, psychiatric diagnoses and marital stability, are problematic when it comes to measuring across different populations. He notes that in order to get a test that "statistically predicts life outcomes" for people in a culture with no school, job performance, or Western notions of marital stability, you would have to completely rewrite the test to the point where it is not comparable with the one used on subjects from Western populations. This however, really doesn't do much to explain why it is that blacks raised in a Western environment, consistently rank the lowest in terms of academic achievement.
quote:James Flynn's recent text "What is Intelligence" shows that IQ tests are truly determined by enviroenmental factors. Get his book and try to read it.
You strike me as someone who has obviously never read any of the arguments that oppose your world view. First of all, I will repeat again: No contemporary psychologist (or evolutionary biologist for that matter) maintains that IQ is entirely environmental, to quote the psychologist Eric Turkheimer, "The nature-nurture debate is over. All human behavioral traits are heritable." And secondly, I would recommend that you read and internalize these articles here and here in which Linda Gottfredson quite effectively deconstructs Flynn's hypothesis.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Fawal,and you didn't read my above post now did you.Blacks the world over have had a tough 500yrs,they have been in basic survival mode for all that time,but still they perserver and in some cases pull ahead of others at what ever they set their minds to.People generally do what everbody else is doing in anygiven community.eg Jamaicans usually like to move to Brooklyn live in an apt.work 2~3 jobs save some money buy a house in Queens or Westchester N.Y or join the greater upscale Black migration to Atlanta.They are almost as a sterotype enter the auto-move repair industry for men and women become certified nurses.and resturant owners, Some will get in the music business as entertainers or producers and technicians. what I am saying is people living in the same communities will move in the similar patterns untill someone brakes the pattern and does something that proved even more successful than what was previously known. As a matter of fact I have family members chomping at the bits to setup shop here in Japan.Not to mention the car-parts business.
So to recap any group of people whose focus is on higher education will produce folks who is highly repersented in that field.You mentioned that at your uni. Blacks enter fields that are not math/science related i again refer you to Dr Degrasse comments.^^
BTW I havn't heard anyone on this forum proposed an all "Black" population for Khart-Haddas,although Blacks were highly represented in all strata of the sociaty.
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
I will only add this since some of these points have been neglected thus far and because Fawal doesn't seem as trollish as some of the others more than he is misguided.
quote:to quote the psychologist Eric Turkheimer, "The nature-nurture debate is over. All human behavioral traits are heritable.
This statement is a broad one, though it still doesn't describe IQ since IQ is not a behavioral trait but rather a suggested property that lies dormant until utilized. It does not describe behavior although there are seeming correlations. Variance in behavior among humans has only been demonstrated to be cultural. This is actually the definition of culture (behavior that is passed on). This brings to the point that your claims are based on a false premise of racial units. No such distinct races can be defined nor can they be boxed in according to IQ. "Black" is not a "race". You did not adequately respond to lamin's post about the IQ and Wealth of nations table. So-called Blacks score higher than most of the Arab world, native Americans, and many southeast Asians. According to your Rushton style hierarchy, the so-called Caucasoids are for some reason behind these "Negroids". One explanation I've seen from white supremacists is because AAs are mixed. Most recent estimates place such admixture at 18%. Hardly substantial enough to overcome such a gap at the expense of the fellow Caucasoid brothers of Europeans.
Flynn's work is sound. He has shown CLEARLY that IQ is not genetic. He has shown that the IQ of blacks, over the past 30 years has risen as economic conditions improved and they gain a full 5 points relative to whites, hence it is not 85 which is an outdated number and it's above 90. This is IMPOSSIBLE under a genetic model. Nbsett has shown that adopted Black children of mixed and non-mixed ancestry actually out perform whites under the same settings. The hierarchy showed Blacks>>Mixed>>White, in terms of IQ score which is the exact opposite of what race loons would predict. Tobias and others have shown that 1), AA crania, when evaluated in context are larger than any white group (including white Americans) besides Swedes and 2) that Black Americans have an excess of at least 200,000 more brain neurons than white Americans. Sociologists have shown that in context, African immigrants (in America AND Britain) achieve much greater educational attainment than both white immigrants and white natural-born citizens. Finally, genetics prove that Blacks are more variable than whites and genetically more efficient in weeding out bad mutations given this variability. There were primates in Eurasia AND Africa, yet brain size and human intelligence evolved in Africa, not Eurasia. Intelligence by definition, is an African invention that can't be claimed by Europe or Europeans. This is an extremely weird debate for me as the evidence is clear and the main proponents of your view are considered fringe in the scientific community.
So let's review...
Race its self debunks you.
IQ its self debunks you.
Academics debunk you.
Genetics debunk you.
Fringe hack jobs who have no support in the scientific community however, support you.
^ If blacks are equal in intellgience why haven't they built or maintained any civilization?
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
^Ask your mom.
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by fawal: I'm illiterate?
Dude. Yes. You failed to find any relevant information in the links and fail to demonstrate how any of it's irrelevant and there must be an explanation. You have to be a combination of some of these: illiterate, "low IQ", slow, and disingenuous.
quote:Typical afrocentrist, quick to result to silly ad hominem attacks when someone is trying to hold a rational discussion with you. I'm not the one who actually believes that the Ancient Carthaginians were all negroes, despite the fact that countless busts, coins and frescoes clearly show that they were not.
Red herring and ad hominem.
What's the first thing you do after accusing me of ad-hominem? Commit it your self with claims attributed to some group i remind you of, but nevertheless, claims never made by me nor directly relevent to this discussion.
quote:I find it quite hilarious that you would lambaste my use of the term,
Of course you do. You're confused.
Race originally means sub-species of Homo sapiens sapiens, a taxonomical entity that doesn't exist.
Sure, some use it in a sociological context, but as such it isn't a very scientific tool with which guage of anything biological.
Even in Africans, the folks of the continent with the highest degree of genetic diversity (more than that of every other geographic region combined), even in very distinct language groups the majority of the diversity is always within group diversity and not between group diversity -- and populations diverge genetically in Africa primarily based on language. What's more is that globally humans cluster first into African and non-African with people like Andamanese and Indonesians being more genetically distant from Africans than are the Middle Easterners and Europeans due to proximity (admixture), an example of the fact that phenotype can be misleading as far as genetic relatedness goes.
quote:especially since almost every single thread on this board is devoted to the discussion of race.
Red herring.
quote:
quote:With African Americans in fixed environments
Please provide for me the exact source for this claim
I did, it was in one of the links.
quote:I have a very busy schedule and as such I have no time to winnow through hundreds of posts.
I'd figured you didn't read them, and there were only four posts i linked directly to.
I'll give you a hint, it wasn't in the long one. That leaves the 3 posts that were a few paragraphs or less in length.
quote:please explain to me why it is exactly this data does not correlate to reality
It's not just data, it is reality; the black children mentioned in one of the posts i knew you hadn't read excelled those of other races from the *same* enriched environments.
quote:
quote:Anything empirical, anything aside from being *linked* with physical evidence is purely theoretical and purely uninteresting to me (physical evidence = actual gene expression -- not IQ, g-factor, "intelligence", dark hair, light skin, big teeth, long nose, etc).
So ... you link to a page demonstrating that the brain is the center of intelligence ... no way kid, get outta here.
Theory and science btw are not mutually exclusive, so u still haven't said shyit.
quote:it really isn't all that far-fetched when you look at it in terms of simple Darwinistic principles.
Failure.
Simple Darwinistic principles fail at times when the objective is analyses of "superior thinking". A simple example is that many disasters that could cleanly wipe birds, dolphins, and primates (us too) off the face of the Earth could leave things like micro-scopic bacteria and roaches.
Posted by Kemp (Member # 16733) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: ^Ask your mom.
The only civilization that arose in Africa was Egypt which was nordic.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Sundjata
Good rebuttal of this kemp character. I refuse to acknowledge him on these forums. I will never direct a post at him because he is just a dumb racist. He does not deserve anymore then what you told him(Ask your mom)bahahhaahahahahah
Peace
Posted by Kemp (Member # 16733) on :
An ancient scholar named Al-Jahiz saw blacks as being mentally inferior and inferior all around.
Like the crow among mankind are the Blacks for they are the worst of men and the most vicious of creatures in character and temperament.
Al Jahiz
Yep Al-Jahiz was a smart man for seeing you blacks asintellecutaly retarded.
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
Kemp you Idiot. The book title is called the Superiority in glory of the Blacks over the Whites.Markellion where are you? school this fool will ya???
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Brada-Anansi
No need to explain simple logic to a fool. They just latch onto anything that promotes there sick views. You should of just let the village idiot with a low selfesteem think he found someone who agrees with his demented views.
He's not worth responding to.
Peace
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Yeah King, but the Mofo is on my thread!!! Btw Al-Jahiz was of African decent.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Fawal, Maybe you cannot follow plain language. I said that IQ is mainly determined by the environment.
Let me show you why: 1) IQ scores must be constantly normed because they have been increasing at the rate of 0.30 points per year since 1947. If allowances were not made for such then the IQ scores of the grandparents of individuals who now score 100 would score 70 on the same test.
2) The Europeans have been in Europe for at least 35K years yet it is only in the last 150 years that the majority of them have learned to read and write. Thus if the average European were given a simple test of logical reasoning some 150 years ago that individual would have scored at the level of a moron. Clearly the reason why his/her descendants would score about 100 on average is due to the environment.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Farwal[obviously a fake Arab name),
You stupidly raise the question why blacks raised in Western countries score lower than whites and others? The simple answer is that in those Western countries the cultures in which blacks live are sufficiently diiferent from the mainstream culture to be correctly viewed as equivalent to distinctly different societies--as if such blacks lived in other countries.
Simple isn't it! Yet you are so brainwashed by the nonsense put out by the IQ boys that if they told you that Santa Claus existed you would believe it.
Posted by fawal (Member # 16388) on :
quote:So to recap any group of people whose focus is on higher education will produce folks who is highly repersented in that field.You mentioned that at your uni. Blacks enter fields that are not math/science related i again refer you to Dr Degrasse comments.^^
No one is denying the fact that there are in fact very talented black people. The point is that ON AVERAGE, data based on years of standardized testing shows that unfortunately most are not. I have actually met Dr. Tyson; he has guested lectured at my school on several occasions. And yes, though he is very brilliant, the fact of the matter is, that he really hasn't contributed much to the scientific community at large (though it should be noted that he is still young).
quote:BTW I havn't heard anyone on this forum proposed an all "Black" population for Khart-Haddas,although Blacks were highly represented in all strata of the sociaty.
Oh yes they have. Earlier this year I had a brief discussion with a few of them after reading a thread which claimed that Hannibal and the Ancient Carthaginians were all black Africans. And as far as the statement that blacks were "highly represented," I find that quite odd, especially since if you look at the art left by the Carthaginians themselves, or if you look at the frescoes in the ancient citadels, it quickly becomes apparent that that statement doesn't hold any water.
Posted by fawal (Member # 16388) on :
quote:Variance in behavior among humans has only been demonstrated to be cultural.
This is a complete fallacy and ties in with the philosophy of tabula rasa, or the idea that the human mind is a completely blank slate from birth, and must be shaped from socialization. Most modern day geneticists and evolutionary psychologists do not agree with this as it completely contradicts years of research in twin studies, and also because it does not adhere to simple Darwinistic principles. Michael Jackson was a great singer simply because he was born that way - if you ever read a biography of him you would realize at the very tender age three he had already had far better voice control than most older performers, despite the fact that he had never had formal voice training. By your logic, any average Joe on the street can be just as good as a performer or even better than Michael Jackson "if they just try hard enough." The reality is that this really just isn't the case. You do not become a great performer of the caliber of MJ, you must be born that way. Steven Pinker completely lays waste to this idea in his newest book.
quote:This brings to the point that your claims are based on a false premise of racial units. No such distinct races can be defined nor can they be boxed in according to IQ.
Oh I see, so you adhere to dogma spouted by the PC "race doesn't exist" crowd. People like Franz Boas, Steven J. Gould, and most recently Jared Diamond would have you believe that evolution stopped as soon as man left Africa. Anyone with a basic understanding of evolutionary principles knows that this simply just cannot be the case. Early hominids who left Africa would have had to adapt to better survive in their newfound environments. This phenomena would have been accomplished via gene mutations. To better give you an idea of how dramatic these mutations can be, I will draw a reference from cystic fibrosis. Cystic Fibrosis is a disease caused by a recessive mutation in a gene located on chromosome 7. This gene codes for a 1480 amino acid long chloride channel known as CFTR. Now the importance of this channel is that it allows the diffusion of chloride ions in and out of the cell. In CF suffers this fuction does not occur, and as a result they suffer from a buildup of abnormally thick, sticky mucus which eventually clogs the intestines, lungs, pancreas and liver. In addition males are almost always infertile and females frequently infertile. Now there are approximately 20,000 genes in the human genome. These genes can combine to form an almost infinite number of sequences (found via taking the factorial of 20,000). In the case of CF we can see whereby the alteration in the structure of a single gene, thereby resulting in the complete rearrangement of the genetic sequence, produces phenotypically a profound effect(a debilitating lifelong disease). Yes it is true that all humans are 99.9% identical; however the genetic distance between humans, though statistically minute, is still profound enough to produce a large phenotypic difference. To get a better understanding of the implications of this fact, I would recommend that you watch this video. Let me just enlighten you on something, for every researcher that you can find that espouses the ideology that race is merely a social construct, you can find another that does not. Moreover I'll pose the exact same question that I asked you on another thread: If "races" (i.e. groups of people genetically isolated over time, and therefore subject to the effects of mutations and adaptations to better acclimate themselves to their environment) do not exist and we are all 100% genetically identical, then why is it that sickle-cell anemia is found mostly among people of recent Sub-Saharan ancestry, while cystic fibrosis is found predominantly amongst Europeans? I would strongly recommend that you read the work of Vincent Sarich; he's the Emeritus Professor of Anthropology at Berkeley, and really has very little patience for the "race does not exist crowd."
quote:You did not adequately respond to lamin's post about the IQ and Wealth of nations table. So-called Blacks score higher than most of the Arab world, native Americans, and many southeast Asians. According to your Rushton style hierarchy, the so-called Caucasoids are for some reason behind these "Negroids". One explanation I've seen from white supremacists is because AAs are mixed. Most recent estimates place such admixture at 18%. Hardly substantial enough to overcome such a gap at the expense of the fellow Caucasoid brothers of Europeans.
In what way exactly did I not respond adequately? For starters, I didn't even respond to that assertion myself, I simply relayed the explanation given by the evolutionary psychologist Steven Pinker in his latest book. If you have an issue with this explanation, I recommend you take it up with him (you can reach him at either (617) 491-4437 or (508) 349-0280)
quote:Flynn's work is sound. He has shown CLEARLY that IQ is not genetic. He has shown that the IQ of blacks, over the past 30 years has risen as economic conditions improved and they gain a full 5 points relative to whites, hence it is not 85 which is an outdated number and it's above 90. This is IMPOSSIBLE under a genetic model.
That sounds like your opinion. By chance did you even read the rebuttals offered by Linda Gottfredson? Just so you know she actually had a debate with James Flynn moderated by the Cato Institute, and let me just say that at the end of it all it was really quite clear who the winner was, and it most certainly wasn't Flynn.
quote:Nbsett has shown that adopted Black children of mixed and non-mixed ancestry actually out perform whites under the same settings. The hierarchy showed Blacks>>Mixed>>White, in terms of IQ score which is the exact opposite of what race loons would predict.
I would love to see a source for this please; And furthermore I am going to ask you the exact same question that I posed to "Whatbox" : If this is all true, why it is that Howard University, a predominantly black school, has a graduation rate of 54% when the University of Virginia, a predominantly white school, has one of 92%. Why is it that black americans consistently score the lowest on standardized test scores such as the SAT, GRE, MCAT and the LSAT? At the school that I attend I am enrolled in course 20 (biological engineering), and out of 137 juniors only six are black; Why is this? In my previous post I drew reference to "Head Start," why is it that this program proved more effective in helping poor whites as opposed to poor blacks?
quote:Tobias and others have shown that 1), AA crania, when evaluated in context are larger than any white group (including white Americans) besides Swedes and 2) that Black Americans have an excess of at least 200,000 more brain neurons than white Americans.
I never said anything about head size, and 200,000 more neurons is supposed to prove what exactly? Based on years of psychometric research it most certainly doesn't correlate to increased intelligence as measured through standardized testing.
quote:Sociologists have shown that in context, African immigrants (in America AND Britain) achieve much greater educational attainment than both white immigrants and white natural-born citizens.
Sunjata as an African myself, let me just inform you that the Africans who can actually afford to migrate to The West in the first place, are those who generally come from well to do families in the first place. Case in point the Zambian born economist Dambisa Moyo. If you watch this interview with her here on the National Review; you will see that she actually comes from a family of intellectuals. Kofi Annan's family was actually part of Ghana's elite class, with both his grandfathers and uncles being tribal chiefs. Kwame Anthony Appiah's father was an affluent Ghanian politician and attorney. These people all represent an "elite" class, and most of them would be among those you find in the upper quartile of the bell curve. The upper quartile is completely irrelevant; what is of concern is the middle 50% of the bell curve form which you would derive the absolute average of the entire population. The claim that black african immigrants outperform native born whites in the west is really quite disingenuous, as it compares this small elite class against the much larger white population(composed of people from all ranks along the bell curve). A more objective assessment would be to compare the black african upper quartile with the native born white upper quartile. Also there are a little over 1 million African Immigrants (including North Africans) residing in the US, as opposed to 800 million living in Sub-Saharan Africa. The idea of taking this small population, which really only accounts for a drop in the bucket, and trying to extrapolate this as representative of the entire population is really quite nonsensical.
quote:Finally, genetics prove that Blacks are more variable than whites and and genetically more efficient in weeding out bad mutations given this variability.
I would to see a peer reviewed source that substantiates the claim that blacks" are genetically more efficient in weeding out bad mutations given this variability."
quote:Intelligence by definition, is an African invention that can't be claimed by Europe or Europeans.
How the f*ck is it exactly that human intelligence (an abstract property produced via 3.5 billion years of blind natural selection) an "African Invention." You know you really are beginning to take this Afrocentrism thing really out of hand.
quote:This is an extremely weird debate for me as the evidence is clear and the main proponents of your view are considered fringe in the scientific community.
The only reason it is considered "fringe," is because of the fact that most intellectuals are liberal and politically correct, and as such are afraid to swallow logic and inconvenient truths. When James Watson got into trouble a few years ago it really wasn't because what he was saying was necessarily wrong (he merely expressed the view that his hope was that everyone is equal, though all testing shows not really), but simply because he dared to shatter the egalitarian world view that is tantamount to liberalism. The fact of the matter is you cannot pretend that evolution ended when man left Africa, especially since natural selection is dependent on mutations and genetic recombination of alleles both of which take place during gametogenesis.
quote:Fringe hack jobs who have no support in the scientific community however, support you.
Who exactly are the fringe hack jobs? All of the people that I have mentioned are some of the most brilliant minds of their generation. Posted by fawal (Member # 16388) on :
quote:So ... you link to a page demonstrating that the brain is the center of intelligence ... no way kid, get outta here.
Theory and science btw are not mutually exclusive, so u still haven't said shyit.
I think you need to read that link again, as that article, published in March of this year clearly shows that the tests do in fact measure what the are supposed to, completely dispelling the myth that the tests aren't an accurate measure of intelligence.
quote: Failure.
Simple Darwinistic principles fail at times when the objective is analyses of "superior thinking". A simple example is that many disasters that could cleanly wipe birds, dolphins, and primates (us too) off the face of the Earth could leave things like micro-scopic bacteria and roaches.
Huh???
I find it quite odd Whatbox that you completely skimmed over some of the most pertinent questions I posed to you. So I'll ask them again: Why it is that Howard University, a predominantly black school, has a graduation rate of 54% when the University of Virginia, a predominantly white school, has one of 92%. Why is it that black americans consistently score the lowest on standardized test scores such as the SAT, GRE, MCAT and the LSAT? At the school that I attend I am enrolled in course 20 (biological engineering), and out of 137 juniors only six are black; Why is this? In my previous post I drew reference to "Head Start," why is it that this program proved more effective in helping poor whites as opposed to poor blacks?
Posted by fawal (Member # 16388) on :
quote:Fawal, Maybe you cannot follow plain language. I said that IQ is mainly determined by the environment.
Let me show you why: 1) IQ scores must be constantly normed because they have been increasing at the rate of 0.30 points per year since 1947. If allowances were not made for such then the IQ scores of the grandparents of individuals who now score 100 would score 70 on the same test.
2) The Europeans have been in Europe for at least 35K years yet it is only in the last 150 years that the majority of them have learned to read and write. Thus if the average European were given a simple test of logical reasoning some 150 years ago that individual would have scored at the level of a moron. Clearly the reason why his/her descendants would score about 100 on average is due to the environment.
See the Linda Gottfredson links above. Posted by fawal (Member # 16388) on :
quote:Farwal[obviously a fake Arab name),
I am not an "Arab," I am 100% Imazighen and proud. And quite frankly I really couldn't give a sh*t about whether you choose to believe me or not.
quote:You stupidly raise the question why blacks raised in Western countries score lower than whites and others? The simple answer is that in those Western countries the cultures in which blacks live are sufficiently diiferent from the mainstream culture to be correctly viewed as equivalent to distinctly different societies--as if such blacks lived in other countries.
Simple isn't it! Yet you are so brainwashed by the nonsense put out by the IQ boys that if they told you that Santa Claus existed you would believe it.
Oh I see, so your taking the whole Thomas Sowell approach as documented in his book "Black Rednecks and White Liberals," where he tried to ascribe these differences to being solely due to culture. All right then, just elaborate for me just how it is exactly that "black culture," differs from mainstream american culture.
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by fawal: the tests do in fact measure what the are supposed to
Fawal:
i can read. The brain scans may be predictive of IQ scores, but my point still stands.
When i commented about hard evidence i didn't have an article stating intelligent brains are different in mind.
I'm already aware of the fact that things like wrinkles etc accumulate in growing minds,
just as muscle tone and mass grows with those growing in physical strength.
A better guage of innate muscle potential is greater bone density in some individuals compared to others, just as a better guage for smarter folks are brains more thickly laced with gray matter -- nuerons, of which African Americans have about 200 million more, and of which, young childrens reach the trillions before loosing all their unused neurons.
Really i consider us at such a primitive and in ways wasteful times as far as the mind is concerned i don't even find 'measuring "up" to IQ' talk fruitful.
quote:I find it quite odd Whatbox that you completely skimmed over some of the most pertinent questions I posed to you.
I don't, because they were answered in the links to anyone with a willing and functional mind.
Heyy guess what Fawal: weightlifting is an accurate measure of innate muscle strength.
Running is an innate measure of fitness.
Why do black people have a problem with being overweight and eating right (diabetes)?
Could it be that if you spent two seconds around the ones with the problems and the ones without, that you'd know?
When basic survival is front and center, that is what people get primarily concerned with. They have a lot of kids and easily get over weight if possible. (Don't blame me, blame Darwin).
Same thing goes for strength. When that is front and center and people feel weak they flock to things they feel represent strength: they build muscle, buy or make weapons, are emotional and negative, flock to gangs or to guys in gangs, etc -- they don't read books, lol, that's an evolutionary step further. First thing's are first.
Some stress maybe good for tests, but ability to focus and concentrate is better for learning or getting smarter.
Not to again mention the developments that happen in pre-toddler aged kids minds that grow and shrink at monumental rates.
quote:"Compared mean IQ test performance and response styles to cognitive demands of the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children (WISC) among 23 Black children (aged 7-10 yrs) who had been adopted by middle-class White families (i.e., transracially adopted) and 23 age-matched Black children who had been adopted by middle-class Black families (i.e., traditionally adopted). Findings indicate that while the traditionally adopted Ss received normal IQ scores, transracially adopted Ss showed nearly 1 standard deviation Full-Scale Scoring advantage over them. A multiple analysis of variance (MANOVA) indicated significant differences in the styles of responding to test demands demonstrated by the 2 groups of Ss, which were conceptualized as contributors to the difference in average test score observed between them. Multivariate analysis of the helping behaviors adopted mothers exhibited when helping their children solve a difficult cognitive task revealed significant differences between Black and White mothers, which were conceptualized as culturally determined. White adopted mothers tended to release tension by joking, grinning, and laughing, while Black adoptive mothers more often released tension in less positive ways such as scowling, coughing, and frowning. White adoptive mothers were more likely than Black adoptive mothers to provide positive evaluations of their children's problem solving efforts. It is concluded that the ethnicity of the rearing environment exerts a significant influence on children's styles of responding to standardized intelligence tests and on their test achievement."
quote:"An experiment by Tizard and colleagues compared black and white orphans who had all been raised in the same highly enriched institutional environment. At four or five years of age, white children had IQs of 103, black children had IQs of 108, and children of mixed race had IQs of 106."
quote:the children fathered by black American G.I.s in postwar Germany and brought up by their German mothers have the same I.Q.s as the children of white American G.I.s and German mothers. The difference, in that case, was not the fact of the children’s blackness, as a fundamentalist would say. It was the fact of their Germanness—of their being brought up in a different culture, under different circumstances. “The mind is much more like a muscle than we’ve ever realized,” Flynn said. “It needs to get cognitive exercise. It’s not some piece of clay on which you put an indelible mark.” The lesson to be drawn from black and white differences was the same as the lesson from the Netherlands years ago: I.Q. measures not just the quality of a person’s mind but the quality of the world that person lives in.
quote:"British blacks from Africa are a more educated group as a whole than are whites in the United Kingdom"
- "African-Born Blacks in the United Kingdom Are Far More Likely than Whites to Hold a College Degree", The Journal of Blacks in Higher Education, No. 34 (Winter, 2001-2002), pp. 29-31
quote:"A study by Witty and Jenkins (1934) identified 63 children in a sample of black Chicago schoolchildren with IQs of 125 or above and 28 with IQs of 140 or above. On the basis of their self reports about ancestry, the investigators classified the children into several categories of Europeanness. The children with IQs of 125 or above, as well as those with IQs of 140 or above, had slightly less European ancestry than the best estimate for the American black population at the time.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
fawal – You brought up a very pertinent point with your statement: quote – “I am 100% Imazighen and proud”. Actually your statement goes to the heart of my argument that the I.Q. issue is a White racist invention to confuse the truth. Please note the definition of Imazighen that I found on Answers.com. True this particular site is a piece-of-sh1t, but it does speak to the propensity White people have, for spreading lies and misinformation, in their never-ending effort to rewrite history to include themselves, and exclude the people who actually made the history - Blacks.
My question to you is: If this is a Imazighen or Berber;
Then who are these White People who call themselves Imazighen or Berbers? He he.
Definition of Imazighen from Answers.com.
Many Berbers call themselves some variant of the word Imazighen (singular: Amazigh), possibly meaning "free people"
Berbers, aboriginal Caucasoid peoples of N Africa, called Imazighen in the Tamazight language. They inhabit the lands lying between the Sahara and the Mediterranean Sea and between Egypt and the Atlantic Ocean. The Berbers form a substantial part of the populations of Libya, Algeria, and Morocco. Except for the nomadic Tuareg, the Berbers traditionally were small farmers, living under a loose tribal organization in independent villages with local industries (iron, copper, lead, pottery, weaving, and embroidery). The Berbers are Sunni Muslims, and their native languages are Afroasiatic languages, but most literate Berbers also speak Arabic, the language of their religion. Berber languages are spoken by about 12 million people, not all of whom are considered ethnic Berbers. Despite a history of conquests, the Berbers retained a remarkably homogeneous culture, which, on the evidence of Egyptian tomb paintings, derives from earlier than 2400 B.C. The alphabet of the only partly deciphered ancient Libyan inscriptions is close to the script still used by the Tuareg. The origins of the Berbers are uncertain, although many theories have been advanced relating them to the Canaanites, the Phoenicians, the Celts, the Basques, and the Caucasians. In classical times the Berbers formed such states as Mauretania and Numidia.
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
I'm not sure how a people aboriginal to any area other than the Caucasus could be Caucasoid unless they were descended from them but hey.
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
Sources:
quote:Originally posted by Freehand: I'VE always thought that it'd be nice to find out how we can maximize a child's potential:
quote:Four weeks after conception, the embryo's neurons are already forming at an astonishing rate: 250,000 each minute. By 8 months, a baby's brain holds 1,000 trillion synapses, the vital junctions that connect neurons. By age 10, those synapses drop down to about 500 trillion, under a "use it or lose it" principle that prunes away underutilized connections to make the most active ones stronger. The brain is thus sculpted by experience: researchers found that when mothers spolke to their infants often, their children learned almost 300 more words by age 2 than did children whose mothers rarely spoke to them.
In my experience, babes just need to feel alot of love and appreciation. And attention, and interaction. For todds and older children aswell, this lyric is so true! I've seen many kids act that lyric out:
"I am, whatever you say I am, if I wasn't, then why would you say I am?"
quote:Originally posted by afroblack: We don't even need African Immigrants to prove our equality to your race.
Bond (1924) early last century pointed out that the average IQ scores of African Americans from several northern states were higher than those for whites from many southern states (Bond, 1924a, p. 63). He argued that African Americans who migrated to the North must have left their "duller and less accomplished White fellows in the South." Indeed, at that time upward of 85% of African Americans resided in the South, as most still do, to do this day. Bond also believed that IQ test scores reflected social and educational training. Inline with this belief, Jenkins's (1936) reported the results of IQ tests given to Black and White children in Illinois, and found that the proportion of students with scores over 130 was the same among Black and White children when environmental influences were comparable. A study involving Caribbean children would essentially replicate these findings. For example, this study found that when raised in the same enriched institutional environments as white children; black children demonstrated superior IQ test scores. The IQ’s of the children in this particular orphanage were: Blacks 108, Mixed 106, and Whites 103 (Tizard et al, 1972).
In the United States, when matched for IQ with Whites, American Blacks have been shown to demonstrate superior “Working Memory ” (Nijenhuis et al., 2004). This is an interesting finding, as African Americans are typically taught by less qualified teachers (e.g. non-certified teachers and teachers with limited experience) than their white counterparts, and are provided with less challenging school work (Hallinan 1994; Diamond et al., 2004; Uhlenberg and Brown 2004).
Serpell et al. (2006) took 162 low-income African American and white fourth graders and assigned them, randomly, to ethnically homogeneous groups of three to work on a motion acceleration task, using computer simulation or physical tools; or to a control group that did not participate in the learning activities. It was shown that both African American and White students performed equally well on the test of initial learning, with both groups scoring significantly higher than the control group. However, this study also found that African American’s transfer outcomes were superior to those of their White counterparts (Serpell et al., 2006). The study demonstrated, empirically, that not only do African American children learn as well as white children, but that they may also exceed white children in their ability to transfer learned abilities to real tasks; further highlighting the need for better education for this group.
Barnes (1972) noted that the Stanford-Binet, and the Wisc IQ tests are examples of “Culture specific tests,” and that the culture in this instance is what is referred to as “white middle class” culture. Lyman (1970) designed a cross cultural test called the “American Cross Culture Ethnic Nomenclature Test”, or “ACCENT.” The instrument contained 20 black biased and 20 white biased items. In one experiment this test was administered to 110 undergraduates (91 whites and 19 blacks). It was found that the black participants out performed the white participants, with blacks obtaining a mean of 15.3 on the black items and 11.1 on the white items, while white subjects obtained a mean of 12.7 on the white items and 8.3 on the black items. The results indicate that when blacks and whites are tested cross-culturally that blacks may outperform whites.
Africa isn't in the condition it is in because of Low IQ's.
Research has shown that IQ test scores tend to correlate negatively with scores of practical intelligence (Sternberg, 2001, 2004). Practical intelligence can be described as a person’s ability to apply learned skills and knowledge to everyday, real life tasks; or how to handle challenging situations. There is currently a lot of evidence demonstrating IQ tests to be unable to gauge a person’s overall potential or aptitude for learning (see Bradshaw, 2001; Siegel, 1989; Sternberg & Grigorenko, 2002a). What this means essentially is that a person who scores unusually high on an IQ test may not be an especially great learner (Sternberg, 2001). In fact, high scoring individuals may actually be demonstrating deficits in other areas; particularly in areas involving adaptive behavior or “practical intelligence” (See Sternberg, 2001).
quote:Originally posted by thegaul: Also, the situation of NON-Voluntary versus VOLUNTARY immigrants/emigrants seems to be the same worldwide:
"Herrnstein and Murray mention the work of John Ogbu, an anthropologist who has distinguished a number of types of oppressed minorities. A key category is that of "caste-like" minorities who are regarded by themselves and others as inferior, and who, if they are immigrants, are not voluntary immigrants. This category includes the Harijans in India, the Buraku and Koreans in Japan, and the Maori in New Zealand. He distinguishes them from groups like Chinese and Jews who are voluntary immigrants and have a culture of self-respect. If higher socio-economic status Blacks still are to some extent part of a caste-like minority, then they will be at an environmental disadvantage relative to higher socio-economic status Whites. But low status Blacks and Whites are more likely to share a caste background. As Henry Louis Gates, Jr., points out (New Republic, October 31, 1994), affirmative action has had the effect of quadrupling the size of the Black middle class since 1967 . Most middle class Blacks have arrived in the middle classes relatively recently, many of them under less than ideal conditions for the development of self-respect. It would be surprising if children of these newly middle-class Blacks were to have fully escaped their caste background in so short a time.
Ogbu notes that where IQ tests have been given, "the children of these caste-like minorities score about 10-15 points . . . lower than dominant group children ." He notes further that differences remain "when minority and dominant group members are of similar socioeconomic background." But when "members of a caste-like minority group emigrate to another society, the twin problem of low IQ test scores and low academic achievement appears to disappear. Data suggest that the Buraku who have emigrated to this country do "at least as well at school and the work place" as other Japanese."
This explains clearly why African immigrants achieve higher education levels than their immigrant and non-immigrant counterparts. Interestingly, the great majority of them are from majority black countries in east and west Africa.
quote:Research on the assimilation of immigrants has raised the topic of the extent to which the socioeconomic attainments of the second generation differ from mainstream (i.e., the third-and-higher generation) Americans. We investigate this issue for African Americans using the Current Population Survey from 1994 to 2004. Our results indicate that the schooling and wages of second-generation African American women exceed those of the third-and-higher generation African Americans. Furthermore, second-generation African American women do not face a direct racial socioeconomic disadvantage at least in the sense that their schooling and wages are also greater than the third-and-higher generation non-Hispanic white women. Although years of schooling among second-generation African American men is on average as high as for the third-and-higher generation non-Hispanic white men, and the wages of second-generation African American men lag behind those of the third-and-higher non-Hispanic white men even after controlling for basic demographic characteristics. Second-generation African American men have higher wages than the third-and-higher generation African American men, but the wages of second-generation African American men are about 11% less than the third-and-higher generation non-Hispanic white men after controlling for schooling and other basic demographic characteristics. The theoretical implications of these findings for theories of the assimilation of African Americans are discussed.
Lastly the fact that black women out achieve black men in terms of careers and equal or surpass white women -- while black men lag. There's obviously a sociological answer here; no further questions.
quote:JACK KAPLAN:
The argument that IQ tests are valid measures of intelligence rests ultimately on the mathematically complex subject of statistical factor analysis, and therefore cannot be fully understood by people who lack technical training. But common sense should convince any reasonable person that something is fishy.
A typical intelligence test asks a variety of questions, many of which are of the type one learns to answer in school. For example, if you take a Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale test, probably the leading IQ test currently in use, you will be asked to define words; to answer factual and comprehension questions; and to do simple arithmetic problems.
An old version of the test, no longer in use, includes the following questions: what is the meaning of the word "reluctant"?; name three kinds of blood vessels; why does the state require people to get a license before they get married?; a coat that normally sells for $600 is reduced by 15 percent during a sale---what is the price of the coat?
Maybe I am missing something, but it seems perfectly plain to me that the likelihood of answering such questions correctly is heavily affected by, among other things, the quality and quantity of the education one receives as well as by one's intelligence.
In fact, it seems obvious to me that how well a person does on an IQ test depends on a variety of factors besides intelligence: education, reading habits, experience with and attitudes toward taking tests, upbringing, and mental and physical health, to name a few.
Intelligence is difficult to define precisely, but we can all agree that it refers to intellectual ability as opposed to intellectual achievement. No one, so far as I know, thinks that physical ability can be reliably measured by having people tested on a variety of physical skills--running, jumping, swimming, doing push-ups, etc.--and then doing a factor analysis of the results. Why should intellectual ability be any different?
Count me among those who regard the study of intelligence as more pseudo-science than science.
Department of Mathematics Quinnipiac College Hamden, Connecticut
Yay i did some push ups and other conditioning excersizes and did quantifiably good and they evens measured my muscles. Yay I'm genetics over the fat and slow or skinny and scrawny white kids in my neighborhood that don't go outside near as much as i do.
Does anybody get the impression that Fawal might be a regular contributor to a racialist website. For a Tunisian he seems well versed in racial politics of America. It almost seems like he is superimposting a Tunisian identity upon himself to validate his views and fit into Egyptsearch. Either way, he should be able to support his views without deception and simply stand upon his own views.
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by ausar: Does anybody get the impression that Fawal might be a regular contributor to a racialist website. For a Tunisian he seems well versed in racial politics of America. It almost seems like he is superimposting a Tunisian identity upon himself to validate his views and fit into Egyptsearch. Either way, he should be able to support his views without deception and simply stand upon his own views.
They aren't uncommon on the net.
Their net personalities stick out like sore thumbs when you think of the people thye claim to be you've met in real life.
They often get busted by the real things on the net.
Who knows? Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
^ you really need to get over your silly paranoia and just debate him with facts and sound argument. Why does it matter if he is Arab or white? He could be Jewish [your favorite white group ] as alot of Jews argue this way too.
quote: These people all represent an "elite" class, and most of them would be among those you find in the upper quartile of the bell curve.
Maybe to raise the standard of black intelligence we should begin Eugenics movement? lol Zionists advocated it and in practice Jews have an informal version of it through extreme in-group breeding, of course a centuries old culture of study must have helped too making intelligence both genetic and environmental.
quote:A more objective assessment would be to compare the black african upper quartile with the native born white upper quartile.
Ok, good point. What does the stats show here?
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Fawal, look!! Like I have been trying to tell you it's about how and what any given community focused on. If it's Higher education it will show,if It's drug running It will show,If it's about small time trade it will show,The black community is diverse and there are in fact not one Black community but multiple black communities,some is ethnic based some economicly based Eg* someone like myself would have very little in common with some like Vernon Jordon and the crowd he hangs out with,but both of us are Blacks.The fact that you are a Amazigh and I don't know if you are American born or when you migrated to the states,the fact is you should know better.for the majority of your people lived no better than the Majority of other Africans,how do I know this I am friends with Moroccans,Tunsians,Egyptians, Ethiopians and Somailians and others who attend the University of Kyushu and hang out at my place.their stories are in fact no different than the Camaroonians,Nigerians,Ghanians and others about the dire streights most of their countryfolks faced.So for you to have your shot at education and fortune in the West and then turn around and thumped your nose at darker skinned Africans or poor folks of African decent then shame on you for you know better...But for the grace of god goes I. For your migration story and I know you have one is proberly very similar to my own.
The battle you had with some folks sometime ago has to do with Hannibal now if you have the chance look up a physcial anthropologist called S.Gesell...he did alot of research on the bones of the people of Khart-Haddass,people argue over Hannibal because of the Coins or the bust.IF you look at the bust he looks non black in the image of Herakules,If it's the coins he looks Black which he could have been.
Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by ausar: Does anybody get the impression that Fawal might be a regular contributor to a racialist website. For a Tunisian he seems well versed in racial politics of America. It almost seems like he is superimposting a Tunisian identity upon himself to validate his views and fit into Egyptsearch. Either way, he should be able to support his views without deception and simply stand upon his own views.
He seems to me like he could be a Tunisian immigrant in America.
Ausar, is it common for lighter-skinned Maghrebians to feel superior to blacks the way Fawal evidently does? It certainly seems to me that a lot of people in the Mediterranean basin region have issues with black people and having black ancestry.
Posted by Kemp (Member # 16733) on :
quote: Flynn's work is sound. He has shown CLEARLY that IQ is not genetic. He has shown that the IQ of blacks, over the past 30 years has risen as economic conditions improved and they gain a full 5 points relative to whites, hence it is not 85 which is an outdated number and it's above 90.
James Flynn comes very close to being disingenuous in his conclusions.
Here is an extract from Reason Magazine concerning his debate with Charles Murray:
quote: Nevertheless, Flynn noted, in the US the tendency is for the black/white IQ score gap to widen with age. According to Flynn, the average IQ for black four-year olds is 95.4, which drops to 89.4 at age 14 and widens further to 83.4 by age 24.
...why don’t [psychometricians] agree on whether the gap is closing or not? The difference turns on how they slice the data. Murray prefers to look at test scores by birth cohorts, e.g., how the scores of white and black 18-year olds stack up to one another. Those data show no closing of the gap on tests administered since the late 1970s. It remains at about 15 IQ points. Flynn looks at test scores in the year they are administered without taking account of differences in age, e.g., how blacks and whites of every age who took in the test in 1985 compare. Flynn found that the black/white IQ score gap narrowed by 5.67 points between 1972 and 2002. Thus the IQ gap has fallen from 15 points to about 10 ten points.
In fact, what Flynn did to claim a closing of the IQ gap was to choose a lower starting score for negroes than is actually accepted in the science or supported in the recorded data. He asserts the average IQ for negroes in 1970 was 80 or a bit less. He can do this and get away with it by the means cited above, but it is marginally unethical. All the data from all reputable sources tells us the average then, thirty or forty years ago, was the same as it is now, and the same as Flynn reports in that same study by the age of 24: an average IQ of 85 or a bit less, as he concedes above as quoted in Reason.
There has been no closing of the IQ gap. That is impossible because intelligence is heritable. Whites who are born with low IQs inherited their low IQs and there is nothing they can do about it; negroes born with high IQs inherited their high IQs and they cannot unlearn it. On average though, Whites are born with higher IQs than negroes.
Posted by Kemp (Member # 16733) on :
^ Looks like I made Sunjandtia run.
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr Identity aka the Stalking Mangina: ^ you really need to get over your silly paranoia
^folks, the irony.
Let go like you and Jews?
quote:just debate him with facts and sound argument. Why does it matter if he is Arab or white? He could be Jewish [your favorite white group ] as alot of Jews argue this way too.
That's an interesting question: my favorite white group ... but then upon thought and recollection i surmise i don't have a favorite white group -- i'm just cool with *cool* white people.
And why - you ask - does it matter what identity this poster is to me?
Well really, o Stalking one, ausar's questions shouldn't matter because if it didn't matter it shouldn't matter what ethnicity you claim to be. But i only afford respect to those who show the same respect to me -- dude did attack what he thinks we all are with the "afrocentrist" red herring.
I just stated that in my experience people from the West LOVE to pose as some other ethnicity to mess with people: mostly they like to mess with blacks the whole idea of race controversy while posing as ebonics speaking black people or poor english speaking people from somewhere, notably around Africa or India/East Asia.
Untill they get caught in the act.
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: Ausar, is it common for lighter-skinned Maghrebians to feel superior to blacks the way Fawal evidently does?
IMO those posts are no sign of a secure sense of superiority, lmao.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
If you feel "stalked" why do you keep replying? Admit it Jeeves, you get off thinking you are being stalked by men. LOL
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: Ausar, is it common for lighter-skinned Maghrebians to feel superior to blacks the way Fawal evidently does? It certainly seems to me that a lot of people in the Mediterranean basin region have issues with black people and having black ancestry.
I have a theory that this racism developed in the 20th century somehow because of white supremacist imperialism.
quote:Sultan Abul-Hasan was well known for his ostentatious ways and his presumption to vie with the mightiest monarchs and adopt their customs in exchanging gifts with their peers and counterparts and dispatching emissaries to distant kings and far frontiers. In his time the king of Mali was the greatest of the kings of the Sudan and the nearest to his kingdom in the Maghrib. Mali was 100 stages distant from the southern frontiers of his realms
quote:It would be more accurate to say the Nordic race. Other white races have not uniformly shown this discrimination. The Mediterranean race in particular has never manifested the same amount of race feeling. The Arabs have tended to receive the Negro almost on terms of equality, partly on religious grounds; it seems probable that the decadence of the Arabs is largely due to their miscegenation.
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: Ausar, is it common for lighter-skinned Maghrebians to feel superior to blacks the way Fawal evidently does? It certainly seems to me that a lot of people in the Mediterranean basin region have issues with black people and having black ancestry.
quote:Originally posted by markellion: I have a theory that this racism developed in the 20th century somehow because of white supremacist imperialism.
I've had a similar feeling of truth (i get 'feelings' that i now know always turn out to be truths) for a while now.
In part i just think that it was simple rationalizing of a 'bad act' on simple minded people.
To many less conscious folk in the past sacrifice of *other people* was almost nothing:
Timbuktu's new ruler on page 107 of Timbuktu: the Sahara's Fabled City of Gold by Mark De Villiers & Sheila Hirtle, Sonni Ali from the city of Gao, was said to have put to death thirty virgins like that <<spaps fingers>> because in leaving their homes for the first time they didn't make the 9 kilometer trek to his base.
Back to racism: i everyone needs to be aware of the illogical nature of anachronisms. There are no absolutes. Some things stay the same and some things change.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
There has been no closing of the IQ gap. That is impossible because intelligence is heritable. Whites who are born with low IQs inherited their low IQs and there is nothing they can do about it; negroes born with high IQs inherited their high IQs and they cannot unlearn it. On average though, Whites are born with higher IQs than negroes.
1)If so, then explain why the average twin differential for Jensen's(1974) monozygotic twin study was 6.0 points. The cultures/environments in which the twins grew up were uniform Euro cultures.
2) In fact, approximately 12% of the Jensen twin subjects registered differentials of more than 14 points--with some as high as 20 points.
3)Sure, cognitive abilities are heritable but not necessarily directly from immediate parents. The parents of Einstein were just individuals of ordinary intelligence and his children all turned ot be just average types.
4)Explain why the IQ of AAs is on the average higher than those of areas that Europeans claim produced "civilisation". Examples are India(81), Iran(Persia)[83], Mexico[Incas and Mayas][83], Iraq(Ancient Mesopotamia)[83], Greece(the source of Western civilisation)94. Guatemala(78), Honduras(83).
5)In Europe--Lynn(1974) pointed out that Italian and Portugese migrants to the U.S. some 50+ years ago averaged 83 points on IQ tests. Scandinavians scored at the U.S average.
6) The point is that while cognitive abilities(g factor) are heritable, the cultural/learning environment plays a decisive role-- which explains why white middle class people are fanatical about getting their children into the "right" schools.
7) If "intelligence" was purely heritable, explain IQ test results are regularly normed--and this applies to Europe where testing is done only on Europeans.
8)Here are some other scores: Israel(94), Brazil(85), Ireland(95), Cambodia(87), and Pakistan(81).
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
How are IQs done elsewhere? I in someplaces they should create their own type of test.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Quote:
4)Explain why the IQ of AAs is on the average higher than those of areas that Europeans claim produced "civilisation". Examples are India(81), Iran(Persia)[83], Mexico[Incas and Mayas][83], Iraq(Ancient Mesopotamia)[83], Greece(the source of Western civilisation)94. Guatemala(78), Honduras(83).
lamin - Are you really that simple? Of the examples that you gave; in which country does the original people still survive as a unique people?
Simple_2 - What does all of the best performing countries have in common, and what does all of the poor performing countries have in common.
Hint; Wealth/Poor - ya I know that Mexico is actually a wealthy country, but average Mexicans never see that money. Posted by ChairmanofBA (Member # 16757) on :
Transcript from a debate reguarding IQ
JARED (white nationalists) : Well I think in some cases you have outright discrimination that prevents them from getting ahead. My only point is that if you're talking about Asians as a groupãif society, if environment, if that's the thing, or the key element, or whether or not they were working on a degree when they came to the United States, you would not find aggregate differences in IQ of Japanese in Japan as opposed to whites in the United States. And in fact you find the same IQ differences if you're talking about the Japanese in the United States as opposed to Japanese in Japan. You have an average IQ of 103, 104, as opposed to the average white that's 100. You see these differences reflected in the different fields in which they choose to be occupied.
TIM(Anti Racists): Except that a three to four point IQ difference is considered statistically insignificant by those who do IQ testing. I'd also point out that if we're going to talk about IQ, because it seems to me the main argument that's made by white nationalists regarding IQ is that not the difference between Asians and whites, which they will usually argue are there but are quite small, the difference between whites and blacks. Yet what's fascinating is that a few years ago after "The Bell Curve" came out, which was this very mainstream, bestselling book, supposedly mainstream, it certainly did well, which argued the same point, that there was, that IQ was very substantial in terms of likely economic livelihood and success and education and jobs and income and everything and argued that IQ was very much related to biology and race in particular. What's fascinating is that two years after, three years after the book came out, researchers at Washington University in St. Louis, using the very same longitudinal database that Murray and Herrnstein used for their research, which had demonstrated this persistent IQ gap between whites and blacks, looked at the same data and were able to take what Murray and Herrnstein didn't mention in their book from the data, which was that when African Americans in the US go to college, they raise their IQ four times faster than whites who go to college and in the process close the average IQ gap between whites and blacks in half in just four years. That would not be possible if IQ was fundamentally related to biology and yet it is exactly what the very database that Murray and Herrnstein used, actually demonstrated the average gap, which used to be back in the old studies, fifteen points between whites and blacks. Some evidence now suggests the average prior to college is only ten points. The college experience in four years cuts it down to half, or about five points, which, again, is statistically insignificant and which demonstrates the importance of access, opportunity, and environment on IQ scores. That could not happen, and it did, that could not happen, if IQ was fundamentally a biological concept.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
lamin - Are you really that simple? Of the examples that you gave; in which country does the original people still survive as a unique people?
Since I assume that peoples from all geographical regions are cognitively on par absent environmental influences, I don't see the relevance of your question.
So let's hear what you actually assume/believe.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^ You prefaced your statement with: Quote - Explain why the IQ of AAs is on the average higher than those of areas that Europeans claim produced "civilisation"
Obviously, areas didn't produce civilization; people did. And those people are long gone.
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
^So according to this rationale: it is what it is what it is.
It's who is on top that matters in this discussion; basically there is no point in arguing, as long as whites are on top of someone they are top dog.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
quote:Obviously, areas didn't produce civilization; people did. And those people are long gone.
.
Come on Mike, let's be serious now. The word "areas" is used metaphorically here. Get it? It's like saying: "Kenya produces many outstanding distance runners". Get it?
Posted by -Horus- (Member # 11484) on :
Mike is not a very bright guy.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
lamin - You asked the question: I was merely pointing out; that your question could not yield a sensible answer, because your question itself was based on a nonsensical premise.
That is: all of the areas that you used as examples i.e. India, Iran(Persia), Mexico[Incas and Mayas], Iraq(Ancient Mesopotamia), Greece (the source of Western civilisation). Guatemala, Honduras.
All have totally new; Caucasian or Caucasian-mix populations. So how is a parallel to be drawn, between what the original populations achieved, and what the new (Caucasian or Caucasian-mix) populations achieved, when the only similarity is in location?
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Horus - you simple Negro, was that simple enough for you? Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Mike, the point is that if you assume that all human groups--on average-- have equal cognitive capacities then any group that lived in Persia, India, Mesopotamia, Mexico, etc. at the time that those areas witnessed technologically advanced(relatively) civilisations--then the results would have been the same.
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by fawal: [QB]
quote:Variance in behavior among humans has only been demonstrated to be cultural.
This is a complete fallacy and ties in with the philosophy of tabula rasa, or the idea that the human mind is a completely blank slate from birth, and must be shaped from socialization...........
Talk about a long-winded and overly redundant post.
The problem here is that your own source contradicts you and doesn't associate intelligence with any particular "behavioral trait".
"In reality, there is no universal agreement on the definition of intelligence, even among those who study it for a living."
and:
Are behaviors inbred, written indelibly in our genes as immutable biological imperatives, or is the environment more important in shaping our thoughts and actions? Such questions cycle through society repeatedly, forming the public nexus of the "nature vs. nurture controversy," a strange locution to biologists, who recognize that behaviors exist only in the context of environmental influence. Nonetheless, the debate flares anew every few years, reigniting in response to genetic analyses of traits such as intelligence, criminality, or homosexuality, characteristics freighted with social, political, and legal meaning.
They go on to mention the influence of genes, but not across group or "racial" lines. You misinterpret your sources as they do not support you.
You asked:
quote:Originally posted by Fawal: If "races" (i.e. groups of people genetically isolated over time, and therefore subject to the effects of mutations and adaptations to better acclimate themselves to their environment) do not exist and we are all 100% genetically identical, then why is it that sickle-cell anemia is found mostly among people of recent Sub-Saharan ancestry, while cystic fibrosis is found predominantly amongst Europeans?
1) That is not the definition of race and 2), this is a naive question as it relies on one variable to define race. If we go by this one variable (sickle-cell anemia) then certainly many Greeks and other SE Europeans would cluster with Africans rather than with Europeans.
Also, suggesting that micro-evolution continues to occur everywhere else besides Africa is begging the question. Ironically, Sforza cites that Europeans can not be described as or fit into any "racial blocs" of humanity given the shortness of their branch in his diagram/population tree, claiming that this is either due to hybridization or a slower rate of evolution.
Also see Keita and Kittles (1997)...
These assumptions (that the European ecosystem somehow begets higher intellect), as noted by Brace about Rushton is based on nothing more than anthropological naivete. Again, primates inhabited Africa AND Eurasia yet Africa is the place that produced innate human intelligence (hence, "African invention").
quote:In what way exactly did I not respond adequately? For starters, I didn't even respond to that assertion myself, I simply relayed the explanation given by the evolutionary psychologist Steven Pinker in his latest book. If you have an issue with this explanation, I recommend you take it up with him
The geneticists already have:
"Without a doubt, evolutionary psychology remains handicapped by the current primitive state of behavioral genetics and by our extremely inadequate understanding of gene-environment and gene-gene interactions. It is still a subfield that is inordinately dependent upon conjecture and extrapolation. Even in this exercise, it is hindered by an inability to understand cross-culturally most of the complex behavioral phenotypes it seeks to quantify."---Jackson; Lieberman (2001)
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:That sounds like your opinion. By chance did you even read the rebuttals offered by Linda Gottfredson? Just so you know she actually had a debate with James Flynn moderated by the Cato Institute, and let me just say that at the end of it all it was really quite clear who the winner was, and it most certainly wasn't Flynn.
The above also sounds like an "opinion"..
About Nisbett:
quote:I would love to see a source for this please
quote:And furthermore I am going to ask you the exact same question that I posed to "Whatbox" : If this is all true, why it is that Howard University, a predominantly black school, has a graduation rate of 54% when the University of Virginia, a predominantly white school, has one of 92%. Why is it that black americans consistently score the lowest on standardized test scores such as the SAT, GRE, MCAT and the LSAT? At the school that I attend I am enrolled in course 20 (biological engineering), and out of 137 juniors only six are black; Why is this? In my previous post I drew reference to "Head Start," why is it that this program proved more effective in helping poor whites as opposed to poor blacks?
They proved a long time ago that tests like SAT were biased with such experiments as the the urban SAT and PBS' secrets of the SAT. This is only reinforced by Flynn's latest work showing a closing of the gap as he used standardized test scores, including AFQT.
On crania and neurons:
quote:I never said anything about head size, and 200,000 more neurons is supposed to prove what exactly? Based on years of psychometric research it most certainly doesn't correlate to increased intelligence as measured through standardized testing
I mispoke actually as it's 200 million excess neurons and neurons are attributed to information processing. Intelligence actually is attributed more so now to densely packed neurons than brain size yet I had to cover you on both fronts, again showing the opposite advantage when data is leveled out in context.
quote:Sunjata as an African myself, let me just inform you that the Africans who can actually afford to migrate to The West in the first place, are those who generally come from well to do families in the first place. Case in point the Zambian born economist Dambisa Moyo. If you watch this interview with her here on the National Review; you will see that she actually comes from a family of intellectuals. Kofi Annan's family was actually part of Ghana's elite class, with both his grandfathers and uncles being tribal chiefs. Kwame Anthony Appiah's father was an affluent Ghanian politician and attorney. These people all represent an "elite" class, and most of them would be among those you find in the upper quartile of the bell curve. The upper quartile is completely irrelevant; what is of concern is the middle 50% of the bell curve form which you would derive the absolute average of the entire population. The claim that black african immigrants outperform native born whites in the west is really quite disingenuous, as it compares this small elite class against the much larger white population(composed of people from all ranks along the bell curve). A more objective assessment would be to compare the black african upper quartile with the native born white upper quartile. Also there are a little over 1 million African Immigrants (including North Africans) residing in the US, as opposed to 800 million living in Sub-Saharan Africa. The idea of taking this small population, which really only accounts for a drop in the bucket, and trying to extrapolate this as representative of the entire population is really quite nonsensical.
Your logic is flawed. Black immigrants in no way represent an elite class anymore than any other immigrant population and many of these people easily outperform immigrant Europeans. The variables are the same, unlike your selected natural-born elite class Americans. Whenever the playing field is level there always seems to be a slight advantage for Blacks and this kind of spin can't mitigate this fact since the data is clear.
On Blacks being more efficient in weeding out bad mutations:
quote: I would to see a peer reviewed source that substantiates the claim that blacks" are genetically more efficient in weeding out bad mutations given this variability."
My apologies for the late response. But as I pointed out in an earlier post, I have a very busy schedule; And unlike many of the regular posters on this forum, I actually have a life. So thus my hands were tied.
Posted by fawal (Member # 16388) on :
quote:I don't, because they were answered in the links to anyone with a willing and functional mind.
I did browse through those links that you provided me, none of them answered any of the questions that I posed to you: I read arguments ranging from the excuse that "asians cheat more," to one study that claimed that IQ measures how modern an individual is (to which I then asked you: In what ways exactly are black americans less modern than white and asian americans? - and to which I am still awaiting a response), to the article pertaining to black african immigrants and educational attainment. So I will ask you just one final time, and this time I would like to get a direct answer instead of simply being directed to some obscure thread:
1)In what ways exactly are African Americans less modern than White and Asian Americans?
2)Why it is that Howard University, a predominantly black school, has a graduation rate of 54% when the University of Virginia, a predominantly white school, has one of 92%?
3)Why is it that black americans consistently score the lowest on standardized test scores such as the SAT, GRE, MCAT and the LSAT?
4)At the school that I attend I am enrolled in course 20 (biological engineering), and out of 137 juniors only six are black; Why is this?
5)In my previous post I drew reference to "Head Start," why is it that this program proved more effective in helping poor whites as opposed to poor blacks?
quote:Answer: it all has to do with perception.
When basic survival is front and center, that is what people get primarily concerned with. They have a lot of kids and easily get over weight if possible. (Don't blame me, blame Darwin).
Same thing goes for strength. When that is front and center and people feel weak they flock to things they feel represent strength: they build muscle, buy or make weapons, are emotional and negative, flock to gangs or to guys in gangs, etc -- they don't read books, lol, that's an evolutionary step further. First thing's are first.
Some stress maybe good for tests, but ability to focus and concentrate is better for learning or getting smarter.
I'm guessing that this vauge, and highly convoluted explanation is somehow meant to answer the questions that I posed to you above. What then is it that accounts for the differences in terms of life outcomes between Jewish Americans and African Americans given that anti-semetism is almost just as bad as anti-black racism? Posted by fawal (Member # 16388) on :
quote:"Compared mean IQ test performance and response styles to cognitive demands of the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children (WISC) among 23 Black children (aged 7-10 yrs) who had been adopted by middle-class White families (i.e., transracially adopted) and 23 age-matched Black children who had been adopted by middle-class Black families (i.e., traditionally adopted). Findings indicate that while the traditionally adopted Ss received normal IQ scores, transracially adopted Ss showed nearly 1 standard deviation Full-Scale Scoring advantage over them. A multiple analysis of variance (MANOVA) indicated significant differences in the styles of responding to test demands demonstrated by the 2 groups of Ss, which were conceptualized as contributors to the difference in average test score observed between them. Multivariate analysis of the helping behaviors adopted mothers exhibited when helping their children solve a difficult cognitive task revealed significant differences between Black and White mothers, which were conceptualized as culturally determined. White adopted mothers tended to release tension by joking, grinning, and laughing, while Black adoptive mothers more often released tension in less positive ways such as scowling, coughing, and frowning. White adoptive mothers were more likely than Black adoptive mothers to provide positive evaluations of their children's problem solving efforts. It is concluded that the ethnicity of the rearing environment exerts a significant influence on children's styles of responding to standardized intelligence tests and on their test achievement."
This I will admit is interesting! By chance do you have a link to the entire study? I would like to see the sample sizes that they used to obtain these results.
quote:the children fathered by black American G.I.s in postwar Germany and brought up by their German mothers have the same I.Q.s as the children of white American G.I.s and German mothers. The difference, in that case, was not the fact of the children’s blackness, as a fundamentalist would say. It was the fact of their Germanness—of their being brought up in a different culture, under different circumstances. “The mind is much more like a muscle than we’ve ever realized,” Flynn said. “It needs to get cognitive exercise. It’s not some piece of clay on which you put an indelible mark.” The lesson to be drawn from black and white differences was the same as the lesson from the Netherlands years ago: I.Q. measures not just the quality of a person’s mind but the quality of the world that person lives in.
You know, judging by how often this unreplicated 1961 Eyferth study gets cited in 2009, you’d have to say that one side in this debate is a little short on evidence. It's not as though African American G.I.s have stopped fathering half German children. Let me highlight the two main errors with that study: 1)Between 20 and 25% of the ‘black’ fathers were actually North African. 2)At the time, the US Army screened out low IQ applicants with its preinduction Army General Classification Test. The rejection rate was 34% for African Americans, compared to 3% for White Americans(you will need JSTOR access to view that paper).
quote:"An experiment by Tizard and colleagues compared black and white orphans who had all been raised in the same highly enriched institutional environment. At four or five years of age, white children had IQs of 103, black children had IQs of 108, and children of mixed race had IQs of 106."
That study has never been peer reviewed. For starters neither Jack nor Barbara Tizard(there were two, a husband and wife team) were trained psychometricians. Tizard produced results that no-one else seems to have produced, and which were very convenient for his particular ideological position(I've read before that he was a communist). This seems to me to be grounds for caution, if not suspicion. Psychometrics is one of the few scientific fields (other than paleontology!) where the possibility of outright fabrication of data has to be taken very seriously.
quote:"British blacks from Africa are a more educated group as a whole than are whites in the United Kingdom"
Can you read? I specifically explained to you all why that study is not objective. They are comparing a small cognitive elite(Black African Immigrants) against the much larger native-born white population, instead of comparing it against the native-born white cognitive elite.
quote:"A study by Witty and Jenkins (1934) identified 63 children in a sample of black Chicago schoolchildren with IQs of 125 or above and 28 with IQs of 140 or above. On the basis of their self reports about ancestry, the investigators classified the children into several categories of Europeanness. The children with IQs of 125 or above, as well as those with IQs of 140 or above, had slightly less European ancestry than the best estimate for the American black population at the time.
That study is thoroughly discussed in the comments section of this link. Posted by fawal (Member # 16388) on :
quote:Bond (1924) early last century pointed out that the average IQ scores of African Americans from several northern states were higher than those for whites from many southern states
quote:In the United States, when matched for IQ with Whites, American Blacks have been shown to demonstrate superior “Working Memory ”
quote:African American children learn as well as white children, but that they may also exceed white children in their ability to transfer learned abilities to real tasks; further highlighting the need for better education for this group.
quote:The results indicate that when blacks and whites are tested cross-culturally that blacks may outperform whites.
In order for me to to effectively comment on these studies, I need for you to provide for me links to the actual peer reviewed sources. I did a google search for all those quotes, and oddly enough the only websites that carried any actual information in regards to them were Africa Resource and other similar "black" sites. That first study in particular done by Horace Mann Bond in 1924 is very old. Has that study even been replicated in the modern era?
quote:Research has shown that IQ test scores tend to correlate negatively with scores of practical intelligence (Sternberg, 2001, 2004). Practical intelligence can be described as a person’s ability to apply learned skills and knowledge to everyday, real life tasks; or how to handle challenging situations. There is currently a lot of evidence demonstrating IQ tests to be unable to gauge a person’s overall potential or aptitude for learning (see Bradshaw, 2001; Siegel, 1989; Sternberg & Grigorenko, 2002a). What this means essentially is that a person who scores unusually high on an IQ test may not be an especially great learner (Sternberg, 2001). In fact, high scoring individuals may actually be demonstrating deficits in other areas; particularly in areas involving adaptive behavior or “practical intelligence” (See Sternberg, 2001).
Robert Sternberg is nothing more than a far-left hack! You can find a detailed refutation to his 2001 paper here. This paper(the refutation that is) incidentally won the MENSA 2005 Excellence in Research Award.
quote:A key category is that of "caste-like" minorities who are regarded by themselves and others as inferior, and who, if they are immigrants, are not voluntary immigrants. This category includes the Harijans in India, the Buraku and Koreans in Japan, and the Maori in New Zealand.
quote:Ogbu notes that where IQ tests have been given, "the children of these caste-like minorities score about 10-15 points . . . lower than dominant group children ."
Yes I'm quite aware of this. These findings were published in his paper "Minority Education and Caste: The American System in Cross-Cultural Perspective" in the 1970s. In that paper he also argued that blacks and non-asian minorities should not be expected to perform as well as asians and whites unless they got at least as much psychic and emotional support from schools and society as whites and Asians were presumably getting(how exactly asian-americans are afforded any more special treatment as compared to other minorities is still a mystery to me ).In order to redress this school reformers therefore began to promote multicultural education (afrocentrism ) . Curricula that celebrated the cultures of racial-ethnic minorities would make minority students feel more welcome, more respected, and more engaged in their studies. At the college level, the effort to promote full and effective academic engagement has included providing ethnic housing and cultural centers, conducting separate orientation and awards ceremonies, adding college majors that focus on ethnicity, and instituting speech codes that forbid students and faculty from expressing views that individuals from racial-ethnic minorities might find offensive. Such efforts to compensate for presumably missing emotional as well as material resources has changed education in many ways, but it has done little to narrow the racial IQ gaps. Furthermore, John Ogbu also did a final book shortly before his death entitled "Black American Students in an Affluent Suburb: A Study of Academic Disengagement" in which he chronicles the poor academic performance of african american students at an upscale Cleveland magnet school. At this school the average african american gpa was 1.9 compared to 3.45 for their white classmates. At the end of his research Ogbu concluded that the students poor academic performance wasn't due to socioeconomics, school funding, or racism, but instead attributed it to their fear of being accused of "acting white"(obviously in denial of over 100 years of psychometric research ).
quote:JACK KAPLAN:
The argument that IQ tests are valid measures of intelligence rests ultimately on the mathematically complex subject of statistical factor analysis, and therefore cannot be fully understood by people who lack technical training. But common sense should convince any reasonable person that something is fishy.
A typical intelligence test asks a variety of questions, many of which are of the type one learns to answer in school. For example, if you take a Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale test, probably the leading IQ test currently in use, you will be asked to define words; to answer factual and comprehension questions; and to do simple arithmetic problems.
An old version of the test, no longer in use, includes the following questions: what is the meaning of the word "reluctant"?; name three kinds of blood vessels; why does the state require people to get a license before they get married?; a coat that normally sells for $600 is reduced by 15 percent during a sale---what is the price of the coat?
Maybe I am missing something, but it seems perfectly plain to me that the likelihood of answering such questions correctly is heavily affected by, among other things, the quality and quantity of the education one receives as well as by one's intelligence.
In fact, it seems obvious to me that how well a person does on an IQ test depends on a variety of factors besides intelligence: education, reading habits, experience with and attitudes toward taking tests, upbringing, and mental and physical health, to name a few.
Intelligence is difficult to define precisely, but we can all agree that it refers to intellectual ability as opposed to intellectual achievement. No one, so far as I know, thinks that physical ability can be reliably measured by having people tested on a variety of physical skills--running, jumping, swimming, doing push-ups, etc.--and then doing a factor analysis of the results. Why should intellectual ability be any different?
Count me among those who regard the study of intelligence as more pseudo-science than science.
Department of Mathematics Quinnipiac College Hamden, Connecticut
And this is supposed to prove what exactly? This is the opinion of one man who is a mathematician by profession; he's not a psychologist, he's not a geneticist, he's not a neuroscientist. This is what actual science has to say on the matter:
"Brain regions controlling language and reading skills were virtually identical in identical twins, who share exactly the same genes, while siblings showed only 60 percent of the normal brain differences. This tight structural similarity in the brains of family members helps explain why brain diseases, including schizophrenia and some types of dementia, run in families. We were stunned to see that the amount of gray matter in frontal brain regions was strongly inherited, and also predicted an individuals IQ score, said Paul Thompson, the studys chief investigator and an assistant professor of neurology at the UCLA Laboratory of Neuro Imaging. The brains language areas were also extremely similar in family members. Brain regions that were found to be most similar in family members may be especially vulnerable to diseases that run in families, including some forms of psychosis and dementia." LINK
"A substantial body of literature from twin, family and adoption studies documents significant genetic effects on human intelligence. Heritability estimates range from 40 to 80% and meta-analyses suggest an overall heritability of around 50%" Dick et al, (2006) "Association of CHRM2 with IQ: Converging Evidence for Genes Influencing Intelligence." Behavioral Genetics. LINK
"Data from more than 8000 parent-offspring pairs, 25,000 sibling pairs, 10,000 twin pairs and adoption studies provide evidence that genetic factors play a substantial role in the variation of general intelligence, with heritability estimates ranging from 40 to 80%" --Burdick et al, Cognitive variation in DTNBP1 influence general cognitive ability. Human Molecular Genetics, 2006, Vol 15, No. 10.
Intelligence tests predict school performance fairly well, at least in American schools as they are now constituted. Similarly, achievement tests are fairly good predictors of performance in college and postgraduate settings.--Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns Report of a Task Force established by the Board of Scientific Affairs of the American Psychological Association Released August 7, 1995 LINK
Recent research has begun to explore what seem to be still more direct measures of neural processing. Although there are various physiological candidates that may account for some degree of what we see as g, two are especially salient: nerve conduction velocity (NCV) and myelination. See the March 2009 New Scientist article on this: "By comparing brain maps of identical twins, which share the same genes, with fraternal twins, which share about half their genes, the team calculate that myelin integrity is genetically determined in many brain areas important for intelligence. This includes the corpus callosum, which integrates signals from the left and right sides of the body, and the parietal lobes, responsible for visual and spatial reasoning and logic (see above). Myelin quality in these areas was also correlated with scores on tests of abstract reasoning and overall intelligence (The Journal of Neuroscience, vol 29, p 2212)." LINK
For a summary of the neurobiological correlates with 'g' see Thompson & Gray's summary: LINK
It is also linked to cortical thickness: "In healthy adults, greater intelligence is associated with larger intracranial gray matter and to a lesser extent with white matter. Variations in prefrontal and posterior temporal cortical thickness are particularly linked with intellectual ability." Cerebral Cortex 2007 17(9):2163-2171
The differences are seen in children's brain development: "The researchers found that the relationship between cortex thickness and IQ varied with age, particularly in the prefrontal cortex, seat of abstract reasoning, planning, and other "executive" functions. The smartest 7-year-olds tended to start out with a relatively thinner cortex that thickened rapidly, peaking by age 11 or 12 before thinning. In their peers with average IQ, an initially thicker cortex peaked by age 8, with gradual thinning thereafter. Those in the high range showed an intermediate trajectory (see below). While the cortex was thinning in all groups by the teen years, the superior group showed the highest rates of change." LINK
Note that the general intelligence factor or 'g' is strongly predictive of academic performance. See the recent paper headed by Ian Deary: "Deary took the analysis a step further however and did a little latent variable modeling. As the IQ test had three components/subtests (verbal, nonverbal, quantitative), he correlated a latent g factor with a latent academic factor using the following subtests: English, English Literature, Math, Science, Geography, French (n=12519). The correlation between the latent factors was .81. That is: 66% of the variance in latent (general) academic achievement can be explained by latent cognitive ability---measured 5 years previously. Take home message: While general cognitive ability and academic achievement are not isomorphic, the former is necessary for the latter, while the converse is not necessarily true. Spearman suggested this more than a century ago, and, to quote the last sentence in Deary's work, These data establish the validity of g for this important life outcome. Ian J. Deary, Steve Strand, Pauline Smith and Cres Fernandes: Intelligence and educational achievement LINK
This is the case internationally: "International cognitive ability and achievement comparisons stem from different research traditions. But analyses at the interindividual data level show that they share a common positive manifold. Correlations of national ability means are even higher to very high (within student assessment studies, r = .60-.98; between different student assessment studies [PISA-sum with TIMSS-sum] r = .82-.83; student assessment sum with intelligence tests, r = .85-.86). Results of factor analyses indicate a strong g-factor of differences between nations (variance explained by the first unrotated factor: 94-95%)." The g-factor of international cognitive ability comparisons: the homogeneity of results in PISA, TIMSS, PIRLS and IQ-tests across nations Heiner Rindermann *
At a macro level this is very important to economic performance: "In longitudinal analyses with various samples of nations, education and cognitive abilities appear to be more important as developmental factors for GDP than economic freedom. Education and intelligence are also more relevant to economic welfare than vice versa, but at the national level the influence of economic wealth on cognitive development is still substantial." "Relevance of education and intelligence at the national level for the economic welfare of people" Intelligence Volume 36, Issue 2, March-April 2008, Pages 127-142 Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
I believe you missed one:
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox:
quote:Research on the assimilation of immigrants has raised the topic of the extent to which the socioeconomic attainments of the second generation differ from mainstream (i.e., the third-and-higher generation) Americans. We investigate this issue for African Americans using the Current Population Survey from 1994 to 2004. Our results indicate that the schooling and wages of second-generation African American women exceed those of the third-and-higher generation African Americans. Furthermore, second-generation African American women do not face a direct racial socioeconomic disadvantage at least in the sense that their schooling and wages are also greater than the third-and-higher generation non-Hispanic white women. Although years of schooling among second-generation African American men is on average as high as for the third-and-higher generation non-Hispanic white men, and the wages of second-generation African American men lag behind those of the third-and-higher non-Hispanic white men even after controlling for basic demographic characteristics. Second-generation African American men have higher wages than the third-and-higher generation African American men, but the wages of second-generation African American men are about 11% less than the third-and-higher generation non-Hispanic white men after controlling for schooling and other basic demographic characteristics. The theoretical implications of these findings for theories of the assimilation of African Americans are discussed.
no further questions
And btw, these were for the most part copied and pasted from the exact posts i linked to (it wouldn't have been necissary to read the entire thread as you kept implying.
quote:how exactly asian-americans are afforded any more special treatment as compared to other minorities is still a mystery to me
So, according to you Native and African Americans are in exactly the same cultural boat as any immigrants and minorities anywhere, such as descendants of Arab, Italian, Jewish, Chinese and Japanese American immigrants who come over here? Correct?
Just so we're clear.
quote:In what ways exactly are African Americans less modern than White and Asian Americans?
Economically.
Not only that, but alot of the black middle class has been there for barely a generation if that and could very well retain cultural ties. The Flynn affect is very real and in my observation we (black Americans) tend to culturally resemble Southerners. From a genetic standpoint. But maybe there are genetic causes for Southern, black and earlier IQ test takers as well as psuedo-scientific "fastly evolving" genes that explain the Flynn affect more properly than shifts between cultural mediums.
Posted by ChairmanofBA (Member # 16757) on :
quote: What then is it that accounts for the differences in terms of life outcomes between Jewish Americans and African Americans given that anti-semetism is almost just as bad as anti-black racism?
The comparison of African-Americans and Jewish Americans compares a unique
Blacks have a 375-year history on this continent: 245 involving slavery, 100 involving legalized discrimination, and only 30 involving anything elsw. Jews to North America and included doctors, lawyers, professors, and entrepreneurs among their ranks. Moreover, European Jews are able to function as part of the White majority.
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
^Talk about 'elite'.
quote:Fawal: I'm guessing that this vauge, and highly convoluted explanation is somehow meant to answer the questions that I posed to you
Nope; actually, that's what all the citations i posted at the bottom of the page [from the links] were supposed to be for, but if you say you fail to grasp their relevence to your questions i won't disagree. The rant was simply meant to get your mind going.
The point was and is that people under basic stresses and anxieties (such as feeling in un safe / un sure and/or 'weak' and powerless) tend to not end up being as informationally versed and developed as people not under such duress feeling safe and secure.
I thought you might not understand however, which is why i've already stated no further questions. Purhaps half-sigma can help you.
For now my opinion is curious -- accepting, but skeptical. Jews and Chinese American immigrants are more informationally versed than black Americans? Ok. This, some suppose, has a genetic basis to it. Sure (here i'm skeptical).
Gene expression for me holds the keys to the answer.
So, i'm done, but everyone can feel free to continue to post information you will perhaps enlighten me with (in terms of my healthy skepticism).
Posted by ChairmanofBA (Member # 16757) on :
IQ tests don't really mean anything. They don't measure musical, creativity, and artistic abilities.
Your IQ is not your destiny according to recent studies and it is also not need for success.
I am interested in knowing why Blacks excel in sports which takes a high amount of cognitive abilities.
Professional athletes and especially those involved in team sports must operate within highly dynamic and multi-dimensional situational contexts (Vickers, 2007) requiring a very complex set of cognitive skills (see Kioumourtzoglou et al, 1998; Horgan and Tienson, 1992).
Athletes must be able to make split-second decisions under the pressures of competition (Vickers, 2007). Hundreds of times in the course of a basketball game, for instance, a player is faced with a decision that must be made rapidly, to shoot or pass, for example, and if to pass, to which teammate.
The player has to take in a complex, rapidly changing situation, and doing this requires a highly specialized and practiced kind of perceptual processing (Huciński et al, 2007; Apostolidis et al 2004; Wyżnikiewicz-Kopp, 1977;Horgan and Tienson, 1992).
There is a large amount of propositional information the players must apply to the scene to appropriately “take in” the situation. Some players are better at recognizing situations than others. Thus, players with similar physical abilities do not always respond in physically or behaviourally similar ways to similar situations, because their cognitive abilities and responses are different (Huciński et al, 2007; Horgan and Tienson, 1992).
In view of the diversity and variability of motor stimuli, basketball demands particular cognitive abilities to be able to adjust one’s internal states to diverse situations, or to think tactically (Huciński et al, 2007).
Besides decision making and perceptual skills there are also the basic properties that structure the game. For example, who is in the game? Of those in the game, who is a teammate and who is an opponent? This information is not literally contained in a perceptual or image-like representation of the situation. There are also more global properties of the game, such as the score, the time left on the time clock, the time left in the game, the coach's game plan and/or latest instructions, and what defense the opposition is playing. Second, there are specific properties of individual players: height, jumping ability, speed, shooting ability, and so forth. Third, there are more transient properties: who is guarding whom, what position each player is playing, who is having a good game and who isn't, who is shooting well, who is in foul trouble, etc. So sports which blacks dominate takes extreme amounts of cognitive abilities.
What do you have to say Fawwass?
Posted by ChairmanofBA (Member # 16757) on :
Currently, whites have the monopoly of science. They can release pseudo science and have it accepted into the mainstream. African-Americans must venture into this field and have our psychologists refute Rushton and all of those like him. We also need to have Black Supremacist psychologists write books opposite of Race, Evolution, and Behavior. White kids perform better than African-Americans because Blacks are subconsciously taught they are inferior. White people teach that they are the fathers of History, Mathematics, and science. They teach that Hippocrates is the father of medicine when Imhotep a black man produced medical scripts predating Hippocrates existence. Whites people also teach they invented the Pythagoras theorem when it was used in Egypt FIRST! When you never get recognition for your amazing accomplishments you start to fail academically because you have become a tree with no roots.
I still can’t believe you have whites telling us blacks we are inferior. I laugh at such a bizarre idea considering we are the fathers of medical sciences and mathematical principles. We are the original inventors of the disciplines that helped to bring the world into the technological age and yet somehow we are intellectually inferior? HAHAHHA!
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by ChairmanofBA: IQ tests don't really mean anything. They don't measure musical, creativity, and artistic abilities.
To me, IQ tests don't at all evaluate that genius that is responsible for getting us from the stages of hunting meat and foraging plants for food to where we are now.
It's an appreciative and adaptive genius that can be seen in people like musicians and artists.
The genius that said, these aren't stone and wood, these are instruments (smoothing/grinding tools, hunting tools, weapons, etc), is the same mind that said these animals and berries aren't just meals, they're renewable resources. It's the same mind that came up with speech / language and when the time came writing. The same one that came up with ceramics, adhesives, medicines, etcetera.
There are those students who are mentally fit/knowledgable, but what of those who are constantly discovering or on the verge of discovering things that are chapters ahead because they not only have taken their time in getting a good understanding/grasping but are good at things like seeing patterns and / or making connections?
Posted by YellowPeril (Member # 16646) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: There has been no closing of the IQ gap. That is impossible because intelligence is heritable. Whites who are born with low IQs inherited their low IQs and there is nothing they can do about it; negroes born with high IQs inherited their high IQs and they cannot unlearn it. On average though, Whites are born with higher IQs than negroes.
1)If so, then explain why the average twin differential for Jensen's(1974) monozygotic twin study was 6.0 points. The cultures/environments in which the twins grew up were uniform Euro cultures.
2) In fact, approximately 12% of the Jensen twin subjects registered differentials of more than 14 points--with some as high as 20 points.
3)Sure, cognitive abilities are heritable but not necessarily directly from immediate parents. The parents of Einstein were just individuals of ordinary intelligence and his children all turned ot be just average types.
4)Explain why the IQ of AAs is on the average higher than those of areas that Europeans claim produced "civilisation". Examples are India(81), Iran(Persia)[83], Mexico[Incas and Mayas][83], Iraq(Ancient Mesopotamia)[83], Greece(the source of Western civilisation)94. Guatemala(78), Honduras(83).
5)In Europe--Lynn(1974) pointed out that Italian and Portugese migrants to the U.S. some 50+ years ago averaged 83 points on IQ tests. Scandinavians scored at the U.S average.
6) The point is that while cognitive abilities(g factor) are heritable, the cultural/learning environment plays a decisive role-- which explains why white middle class people are fanatical about getting their children into the "right" schools.
7) If "intelligence" was purely heritable, explain IQ test results are regularly normed--and this applies to Europe where testing is done only on Europeans.
8)Here are some other scores: Israel(94), Brazil(85), Ireland(95), Cambodia(87), and Pakistan(81).
Good points all lamin. Flynn showed that scores of many whites back in the 1950s and 1960s would be deemed as "dumb" or "below par" today. It it were purely heritable, changes at the magnitudes that have taken place would not exist. Jews for example did poorly on Army intelligence tests during WWI. Today their scores far outstrip supposedly pacesetting 'Aryans'.
And let us not forget that Asians are superior. All the "Aryan" talk doesn't mean diddly. Asians are kicking their asses thoroughly.
The Asian-white gap is actually bigger than it appears because of the practice of lumping numerous groups under the 'Asian" banner including native Hawaiians, Samoans, and other Pacific Islanders, plus S.E Asians like Hmong refugees and others deemed to fit. Asian scores are also underreported due to the large number of Asian immigrants that are just learning English. When apples to apples are compared - native born, East Asians versus whites in the USA, the IQ score gap between whites and Asians widens in favor of Asians. Indeed Asians surpass whites on several counts. Racists for example like to point out the lack of blacks in Advanced Placement classes, but when the finger is redirected at whites, you find that (quote)
"Asian-American high school students complete Advanced Placement courses at triple the white rate. Whites are strikingly behind Asians in their commitment to taking these academically rigorous courses... (Thernstrom A. (2004) No Excuses: p. 92).
"The Asian presence [in higher education] is striking. Roughly 4 percent of Americans today are of Asian background. And yet Asian Americans made up 27 percent of the 2000-2001 freshmen class at MIT, 25 percent at Stanford, 24 percent at Cal tech.. 17 percent at Harvard, 15 percent at both Brown and Yale.... [etc etc.] They are far more likely to graduate from college- a startling fact. In 2000, a majority (54 percent) of Asian Americans ages 25-29 had a bachelor's degree or more as compared to with just a third (34 percent) of whites. The 20-point Asian-white graduation rate gap us even larger than the 16-point black-white gap. The Asian success story in graduate education is equally impressive. For example, Asian-American students now make up one-fifth of all the medical students in the United States, five times their share of the population as a whole. Given the enormous prestige and high income of doctors, this is a stunning achievement... [At the leading law schools] Asians currently account for 10 to 20 percent of the law students at Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Columbia, NYU, COrnell, Northwestern, Berkeley, UCLA, and the University of Southern California." (Thernstrom, 2004: p. 85).
Nationwide data at the K-12 level such as NAEP scores often underreports Asian superiority, due to small sample sizes, lack of reporting data, lumping in Pacific Islanders, etc. Because to these problems, in many such assessments Asian students at the lower K-12 levels appear similar to whites, but the small datasets mask clear Asian advantages. In areas where there is more data, such as at the high school level in Math, this superiority is clear. (quote):
"Asian-American twelth-graders outscored whites by an average of about 10 points on the four mathmetics assessments conducted between 1990 and 2000." (Thernstrom A. (2004) No Excuses. p. 86).
Asians are a remarkable 2.5 times more likely than their white classmates to qualify for admission to high- end and selective, top-tier college systems like the University of California system. Asians are also more disciplined. They watch less TV than whites and do more homework. For example, (quote):
"only a quarter of white students in middle school spend more than an hour daily on schoolwork, but half of all Asian-American children do so. By the twelfth grade, the difference is even starker. Less than a quarter of whites, but 53 percent of Asians, report doing over an hour of homework every day.."
Note that research finding again: {quote}
"The 20-point Asian-white graduation rate gap us even larger than the 16-point black-white gap." Posted by ChairmanofBA (Member # 16757) on :
^ To add to that
WHITE boys are virtually BOTTOM of the class in a shock new British schools report, we can reveal today.
They do WORSE in their GCSEs than children from almost EVERY other group in the country.Caribbean, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Indian, black African and Chinese pupils-as well as girls from any background-are all well ahead of them according to latest research by government education
1. Chinese (+6 grades); 2. Black African (+5 grades), 3. Indian (+4.5 grades); 4. Bangladeshi (+4 grades); 5. Pakistani (+3 grades); 6. Caribbean (+2.5 grades); 7. Female (+2 grades); 8. White British Male (0)
quote: IQ tests don't really mean anything. They don't measure musical, creativity, and artistic abilities.
Howard Gardner's theory might give comfort to some who don't want to drill blacks to overtake whites in standardized tests, like Asians eventually did, but obviously IQ tests mean something, even if you want to argue they are biased and environmental.
quote: Your IQ is not your destiny according to recent studies and it is also not need for success.
Maybe so, but then why is Asia the fastest developing nonwhite region? They are a success in terms of development comparable to Africa lags behind.
quote: White kids perform better than African-Americans because Blacks are subconsciously taught they are inferior.
Agreed. So instead of diverting to Gardner's theory of seven or eight intelligences to avoid IQ tests why not do like Japanese who were below whites once and now they score above them (Amos Wilson, Awakening The Natural Genius in Black Children, 1991).
quote: And let us not forget that Asians are superior.
With language like this are you saying blacks are inferior?
quote:It's an appreciative and adaptive genius that can be seen in people like musicians and artists.
^ what rubbish. This is what white liberalism has done to blacks.
Posted by ChairmanofBA (Member # 16757) on :
quote: Maybe so, but then why is Asia the fastest developing nonwhite region? They are a success in terms of development comparable to Africa lags behind.
This is a blatant false statement and you are forgetting how Europeans underdeveloped Africa. Africa is home to some of the fastest growing cities and Bontswana has an equal living standard to Turkey and Mexico.
quote: Agreed. So instead of diverting to Gardner's theory of seven or eight intelligences to avoid IQ tests why not do like Japanese who were below whites once and now they score above them (Amos Wilson, Awakening The Natural Genius in Black Children, 1991).
We perform better than Asians in some areas. Africans are more educated than Asians.
1. Chinese (+6 grades); 2. Black African (+5 grades), 3. Indian (+4.5 grades); 4. Bangladeshi (+4 grades); 5. Pakistani (+3 grades); 6. Caribbean (+2.5 grades); 7. Female (+2 grades); 8. White British Male (0)
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
Mexico is in Americas and when I said Asia I was referring to the well known Asian Tigers and China not so much Turkey. In any event I don't think anyone will argue Asia (East Asia) is ahead of Africa in terms of economic development.
However, in your rush to show "THE WORLD'S FASTEST GROWING ECONOMY" you fail to realize the distinction between growth and development. You can have impressive economic growth, especially if you have abundance of natural resources that are exploited by a local elite and MNCs, but the people can still be left out of that boom. In fact this was a feature of colonialism and it is a feature of neocolonialism today. I remember reading an article in New African where Angola was growing at 10 or more a year, but few would argue that development is taking place.
Posted by ChairmanofBA (Member # 16757) on :
I realize Mexico is in America I made the comparison between Botswana and Mexico to show how Africa s improving. I also made the comparison to Turkey to show that Botswana was on par with some European countries. Africa despite being colonized is showing improvement in several areas.
China, was never colonized, enslaved, raped, and robbed the way Africa was. China was never forced to have rival tribes live amongst each other. No one has ever assimilated their native cultures it was Europeans who underdeveloped Africa.
Why did you ignore my info about Blacks outdoing Asians?
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
OMG, if Botswana is an example of Africa improving then I feel so sorry for you. Yes Europeans underdeveloped Africa, but the British left Singapore as a god dam swamp, I guess Lee Yuan Yu(?) had a choice to complain like you or develop the people and country and guess what he did? As for China not being colonized, enslaved, raped, and robbed the way Africa was, how long does it take for human agency to kick in and for history to stop being a determinant? As African leaders mess things up further with their proxy wars for whites, Swiss bank accounts and austerity economic measures that do nothing to develop the people but pauperize them, don't you think Walter Rodney's book gets more and more irrelevant? Or is Africa doomed forever by history? I guess I'm asking do you believe in free will or is history (like genetics for some) an irreversible determinant?
quote:We perform better than Asians in some areas....Why did you ignore my info about Blacks outdoing Asians?
Because blacks performing better than Asians in some areas has nothing to do with my point: Asia today is more developed than Africa.
Posted by ChairmanofBA (Member # 16757) on :
Botswana is an example of Africa improving. You restating my position in a sarcastic overtone does absolutely nothing to debunk the notion. Botswana has become more economically more successful under black rule than when they were under white rule. You have yet to refute this or even challenge it. After receiving independence Botswana has had one of the fastest growth rates per capita in the world. It has the fourth highest gross national income in Africa and has a living standard equal to Mexico and Turkey. It also has a higher living standard than Botswana is economically sound and after the cure for AIDS is released it will surpass several small European countries. Singapore gained independence from Britain in 1965 and never went through what Africa went experienced. Africans were enslaved, beaten, killed, and robbed from. When Europeans left the citizens were giving no training in running a country. They were left disenfranchised and totally unfit to run a government. Europeans never enslaved Singaporeans and colonization *AND* slavery is to blame for most of Africa’s problems. The colonial powers had did not care about the indigenous people and treated them less than human. Whites left while giving the native people who they dehumanized no training for the maintenance of economic of political infrastructure. Rodney’s book is not irrelevant its one of the most important books an African read because he proves why Africa is in the condition it’s in. You could place some blame on Africa’s condition to African leaders but they are simply mimicking their colonial masters who exploited and subjugated their citizens. Many territorial conflicts on the continent are because of Europeans establishing artificial borders ignoring cultural diffrences amongst native population. Africa is not doomed by history one day ever African nation shall be a super-power after all it’s Africans who invented the disciplines that brought the world into the technological age. You said Africa was more underdeveloped than Asia(Which I don't deny). You shifted the blame on Africans when automatically intimates you believe in black intellectual inferiority (which I find hilarious). Blacks academically outperforming Asians destroys that myth. It disproves Africa being in it's current condition because of genetic predisposition to intellectual inferiority because we are outdoing both whites and Asians.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote: Botswana is an example of Africa improving. You restating my position in a sarcastic overtone does absolutely nothing to debunk the notion.
If you use one country in Africa to conclude that the continent is improving, whats to stop someone from doing the same with, say, the DRC is an example of Africa not improving?
The rest of your post are the same old tired arguments that leaves no room for human agency, lifes complexities and choice. Which is probably why you couldn't answer: how long does it take for human agency to kick in and for history to stop being a determinant?
quote: It disproves Africa being in it's current condition because of genetic predisposition to intellectual inferiority because we are outdoing both whites and Asians.
First I didn't advance the genetic argument and second I said Asia is more developed than Africa, successful African immigrants in the *US* don't change this fact.
quote: Whites left while giving the native people who they dehumanized no training for the maintenance of economic of political infrastructure.
This is so simplistic and patronising you must be a white liberal or "Doug M" he lives to insult Africans like this.
Africans inherited the colonial school system, secondary schools and various universities. It was not a case where Africans were left country-in-hand illiterate and clueless. In fact this is a racist stereotype.
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
Brandon, my acessment of fawal is mainly due to his familiarity with racial debates in America. Most immigrants tend to focus upon their own community instead of issues in America. Only very assimilated communites;general second generation tend to focus on racial phenomenon. I doubt that many Tunisians have settled in America to have second generation like other Arabic speaking populations like Egyptians(mostly Christians),Iraqis,Syrians or Lebanese.
Alot of his familiarity with the subject made me suspect he could be a writer from right-wing blogs that specialize in the whole iq-race debate. Either way its immaterial considering he articulated his arguements in a orderly fashion.
I cannot speak for Magrebians,however, many do seem to have issues with darker skinned African populations. Many fo the ''white'' Berber groups tend to distance themselves away from the continent as a whole and even connect themselves to southern Europeans. This is all from my personal observation. The same also seems to apply to many modern Egyptians regardless of hue.
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
So, this is a black intelligence thread and its centered around how well "sovereign African governments" are doing half a Century after Africa acheived "independence" and how well African Americans do in Western "intelligence quotient" tests.
Weaksauce.
quote:Bogle: but how long does it take for human agency to kick in and overshadow history
Good question, though i'm not sure the "history" which you speak of is at all yet *history*.
I would say the developing machinations at work then are in full fledged affect now.
As for people overcoming certain circumstances, that is a good question.
Some phenomena, like a certain drought at an inconveniant time for a government (such as, facing the threat of losing control over resources, political instability, both, war, etc) that cause entire Empires to weaken, can be overcome in several decades -OR- overcome in a couple centuries -OR- NEVER overcome until the rise of a NEW EMPIRE.
Any debate over whether it is the people or empire that is inadequate is itself inadequate. A better discussion is focused on how people do in a given empire and how we could get a desired outcome.
quote:Bogle: what rubbish.
I disagree.
I say the people that create and discover great uses for things and great wisdoms that other people cop for generations are more genius than someone who is able to learn those wisdoms.
The encyclopedic storing of symbols is to humans as being a vagina is to Stalking Manginas and as having claws and teeth is to the lion.
When i'd first heard about race-intelligence debates i'd quickly analyzed things, laughed, and moved on as there were other things that were more worth learning.
As i began to explore the net and see just how many people have a passionate belief that other people just can't think, i (stupidly) began to become more interested (waste of time) as i thought that such propaganda must be eliminated as it could hurt black confidence.
Meanwhile i didn't notice that me myself having encountered such propaganda and yet still having a well above average IQ.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
Is it just me or whenever this queer posts its like reading Foucault on speed! Jeeves, I'm afraid only your fellow Bohemian queer folks know what you are trying to say.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Why you guys even bother to address the idiot Kemp in matters as mundane as this is beyone me!
All the idiot has is his stupid Bell Curve studies which were DEBUNKED long time ago!!
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
quote:I would say the developing machinations at work [then]
i.e. as in the West for those of you who are challenged ... but could still score above average on IQ test.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
I find it interesting that "neonazi connections" can be made with Murray & Herrnstein's "The Bell Curve". This is interesting because one author is a Jew and the book claims Ashkenazis are the most intelligent. Hence Fawal and others point to the Jewish list of Nobel Peace Prize Laureates as a supposed example of Jewish exceptionality. Bell Curve is proof that white Jews are cut from the same tree as white nords or Berbers.
In 1994 Richard Herrnstein, a Jew, and his non-Jewish co-author, Charles Murray, came out with a controversial book, The Bell Curve, hell-bent on again resurrecting in new form the old racist and classist argument that intelligence is hereditary in that some "races" are inherently smarter -- and some, conversely, stupider -- than others. But the authors are especially particular about Jewish superiority. "Ashkenazic Jews of European origins," they say, "test higher (for intelligence) than any other ethnic group." Such Jews "constantly show their disproportionate level of success, usually by orders of magnitude, in various inventories of scientific and artistic achievement." OTHER JEWISH CONTRIBUTIONS TO MODERN RACIST CURRENTS Posted by ChairmanofBA (Member # 16757) on :
quote:If you use one country in Africa to conclude that the continent is improving, whats to stop someone from doing the same with, say, the DRC is an example of Africa not improving?
The only problem is overall Africa is improving because more democratic elections have been taking place. This website has an overview of other areas Africa is improving in you should look into it.
The rest of your post are the same old tired arguments that leaves no room for human agency, lifes complexities and choice. Which is probably why you couldn't answer: how long does it take for human agency to kick in and for history to stop being a determinant?
What to you mean by human agency? Anyways, I foresee Africa surpassing Asian and European in one hundred years.
quote:
First I didn't advance the genetic argument
Understood. I stand corrected.
quote: and second I said Asia is more developed than Africa, successful African immigrants in the *US* don't change this fact.
I never tried to refute this fact because I agree with it. I misunderstood your argument to begin with. I thought you were trying to advance the argument that blacks were mentally inferior. On that one dispute I concede. Now if you believe that Africa's current condition is due to "innate mental inferiority" I will refute that but only if you subscribe to that belief.
quote:
This is so simplistic and patronising you must be a white liberal or "Doug M" he lives to insult Africans like this.
I'm not insulting Black people at all I was presenting an argument.
quote: Africans inherited the colonial school system,
We had out own school systems before Europeans entered Africa.
quote: secondary schools and various universities.
Africa had schools before European invaders.
quote: It was not a case where Africans were left country-in-hand illiterate and clueless. In fact this is a racist stereotype.
It was like that. Europeans destroyed our schools and universities and set up their own colonial schools that taught from a Eurocentric perspective. They did leave the people ignorant of true history which is needed for blacks succeed.
Posted by ChairmanofBA (Member # 16757) on :
Also Boogle what do you think about Botswana having the fastest growing economy in the world from 1966 to 2001? China came next followed by Singapore.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote: The only problem is overall Africa is improving at least more democratic elections are being hold.
Democratic elections are not a sign of economic improvement as there can be development without democracy e.g. Singapore, Asian Tigers, China and democracy without people development e.g. South Africa.
quote: What to you mean by human agency?
Human beings are cognitive beings, not machines, hence they can choose the life they live.
quote: We had out own school systems before Europeans entered Africa.
That's not the point. You said whites left without giving Africans training in economic and political infrastructure, which is not true.
quote: Europeans destroyed our schools and universities and set up their own colonial schools that taught from a Eurocentric perspective.
And now you contradict yourself. Before you said Africans were left country-in-hand illiterate and clueless, you said "It was like that". Now you say it was not like that. LOL
quote:They did leave the people ignorant of true history which is needed for blacks succeed.
Before you said it was no training for the maintenance of economic of political infrastructure. But I can understand your contradictions as you are trying to reconcile your outdated Walter Rodney thesis with contemporary realities facing Africa.
quote:Also Boogle what do you think about Botswana having the fastest growing economy in the world from 1966 to 2001? China came next followed by Singapore.
I already told you economic growth means nothing. It's economic development that count. China and Singapore are industrial nations, Botswana just a big diamond mine for white people.
Posted by ChairmanofBA (Member # 16757) on :
quote:Democratic elections are not a sign of economic improvement as there can be development without democracy e.g. Singapore, Asian Tigers, China and democracy without people development e.g. South Africa.
I never said more Democratic elections taking place in Africa was a sign of economic improvement.
quote: Human beings are cognitive beings, not machines, hence they can choose the life they live.
Thanks for bringing that concept to my attention but like I said in the original post I see African nations surpassing Asian and European nations in one hundred years.
quote: That's not the point. You said whites left without giving Africans training in economic and political infrastructure, which is not true.
You're correct. Africans were given very little and inefficient training in economic and political infrastracture.
quote: And now you contradict yourself. Before you said Africans were left country-in-hand illiterate and clueless, you said "It was like that". Now you say it was not like that. LOL
There was no contradiction. Africans were left clueless of there history and there accomplishments. And Europeans set up schools to misseducate Africans.
quote:
Before you said it was no training for the maintenance of economic of political infrastructure.
I stand by what I originally said. Africans were given little to no training in the maintenance of economic and political infrastracture. Again, there were no contradictions.
Whites set up schools to keep blacks ignorant.
quote:But I can understand your contradictions as you are trying to reconcile your outdated Walter Rodney thesis with contemporary realities facing Africa.
Walter Rodney thesis may be old but it remains valid just like Diop's black Egypt theory that was once ridiculed by white "scholars".
quote: Before you said it was no training for the maintenance of economic of political infrastructure.
quote: I already told you economic growth means nothing. It's economic development that count. China and Singapore are industrial nations, Botswana just a big diamond mine for white people.
Understood. Now why do you believe Africa is in it's current condition? Why do you believe they aren't industrious?
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote: I never said more Democratic elections taking place in Africa was a sign of economic improvement.
Then why do you bring up democratic elections in a debate about economic development in Africa?
quote: I see African nations surpassing Asian and European nations in one hundred years.
How sad.
quote: There was no contradiction. Africans were left clueless of there history and there accomplishments. And Europeans set up schools to misseducate Africans.
Yes there is a contradiction. First you said nothing was left for them, then you said "very little and inefficient training", now you switch from training in government and economics to them not teaching us about our history! Are you serious?!! Why would they do that?!?! Of course the colonials are going to leave a colonial school system in place so as to administer a system [the colonial infrastructure] that was imposed by them. Stop whining please, as this was the case in Asia too. Europeans left colonial school system to train natives to administer the system they left. What we do with it after they left is up to us. Are you going to blame Europeans for African governments sticking to Eurocentric curricula and not following what Diop etc advocated?
quote: I stand by what I originally said. Africans were given little to no training in the maintenance of economic and political infrastracture.
You are starting to resort to dishonesty, sure sign you are desperate. Initially you said NO training was given.
quote: Walter Rodney thesis may be old but it remains valid just like Diop's black Egypt theory that was once ridiculed by white "scholars".
He is irrelevant today. Rodney, like all good Marxists, thought all society would, based on Hegelian dialectics, inevitably become Marxist. But according to Rodney Europeans intervened and stunted that process to Marxist development in Africa. Of course this is a very Eurocentric view of development, but you black leftys never realise this. Oh well.
quote: Understood. Now why do you believe Africa is in it's current condition? Why do you believe they aren't industrious?
A myriad of reasons, but leadership plays a big role. European predator capitalism is a given, they are looking out for their interests and no one is going to feel sorry for you and cut you some slack. This is where our leadership should have stepped in and looked out for our own interests. Unfortunately they have been more interested in Swiss bank accounts, white wives and pleasing whites.
As I said Singapore was a swamp and they turned it around with good leadership. Your favorite example Botswana cannot compare. It is still a primary producing country because the only thing whites want from it are diamonds and the small black elite are happy to keep the country as mono cash crop exporter. It is no model of development for anyone.
Posted by fawal (Member # 16388) on :
I have already addressed that Tizard study in one of my earlier posts above.
quote:They proved a long time ago that tests like SAT were biased with such experiments as the the urban SAT and PBS' secrets of the SAT. This is only reinforced by Flynn's latest work showing a closing of the gap as he used standardized test scores, including AFQT.
You know I find it really quite surprising that as a black person yourself, that you would use the tired and lame excuse put forward by many white liberals that the SATs somehow are racist and culturally biased, because basically what they are saying is that black people aren't capable of learning at the same level that other people are. Vocabulary, Writing Ability, Grammar, Reading Comprehension, Improving Sentences, Logical Reasoning, Spatial Inferences, Data Interpretation, Arithmetic, and Basic Algebra comprise 95% of the SAT. Are you then conceding to the idea that blacks in general are lacking as far as these skills are concerned? Moreover in 2005 the College Board has completely revised the old SAT releasing a newer version that is now racially and socioeconomically blind (no longer do words like "regatta" or "wicket" appear) but still the trends remain: asians first followed by whites and other minorities with blacks dead last. Why is this?
I have already provided you with links that deal with Linda Gottfredson's rebuttal to Flynn's hypothesis. Furthermore, the Flynn Effect rests on the supposition that IQ is entirely environmental, if you read the studies that I have posted above in bold you will quickly see that this is not in keeping with the most recent neurobiological findings.
quote:Your logic is flawed. Black immigrants in no way represent an elite class anymore than any other immigrant population and many of these people easily outperform immigrant Europeans. The variables are the same, unlike your selected natural-born elite class Americans. Whenever the playing field is level there always seems to be a slight advantage for Blacks and this kind of spin can't mitigate this fact since the data is clear.
And as far as that statement about how "whenever the playing field is level there always seems to be a slight advantage for blacks," I drew reference to John Ogbu's final book "Black American Students in an Affluent Suburb: A Study of Academic Disengagement" in one of my posts above. In that book, the playing field was level and still the blacks underperformed.
Hardly! Read the entire source! Nowhere in that study does it state that blacks are genetically predisposed to "weeding out" harmful mutations. Incidentally though, it should be noted that recent science has shown that many "negative" mutations that result in several genetic diseases such as Tay-Sachs, Canavan disease, Gaucher's disease, Niemann-Pick disease, Mucolipidosis type IV, and other lipid storage disorders and sphingolipid diseases, do in fact correlate with high intelligence, and others are known to cause neurons to grow an increased number of connections to neighboring neurons(these diseases are found predominantly amongst Ashkenazic Jewish populations). See: Natural History of Ashkenazi Intelligence Did Discrimination Enhance Intelligence of Jews? Steven Pinker - Jews, Genes and Intelligence A Jewish Gene for Intelligence? Posted by fawal (Member # 16388) on :
quote:And btw, these were for the most part copied and pasted from the exact posts i linked to (it wouldn't have been necissary to read the entire thread as you kept implying.
If this is somehow meant to imply that I purposefully skipped over that citation, I didn't. If you look at the order in which I addressed your quotes you will see that I addressed them in order relevance, not in the order to which you stated them. I simply missed that citation accidentally. That study that you posted is from the paper The Socioeconomic Attainments of Second-Generation African Americans. If you read that entire paper IN CONTEXT you will realize two things: 1) The study deals with second generation African Americans, i.e. the children of immigrants and not blacks who have lived here since the founding of this country. 2) The study is discussing wages and how higher educated african americans are paid more then those that do not have a higher education. They found that those with higher degrees don't really have a disadvantage when compared with whites or hispanics. In other words, the excuse that so many of you love to use about "the white man holding you down," is moot.
quote:Economically.
Not only that, but alot of the black middle class has been there for barely a generation if that and could very well retain cultural ties.
Point taken as far as white americans are concerned, however I completely disagree with this assessment when applied to asian americans. Most Asians who first immigrated to the US were in a similar or worse condition as american blacks economically speaking. The prosperity that you see amongst many of them today is simply due to the fact that many of them excelled.
quote:The Flynn affect is very real and in my observation we (black Americans) tend to culturally resemble Southerners.
If you choose to cling to that notion religiously then by all means be my guest. In contemporary differential psychology, the Flynn Effect is still hotly debated territory; and I have already cited several studies that put Flynn's hypothesis in limbo. Furthermore there really isn't any use in debating a religious fanatic, because the true believer will never be convinced regardless of how much evidence you give them.
quote:But maybe there are genetic causes for Southern, black and earlier IQ test takers as well as psuedo-scientific "fastly evolving" genes that explain the Flynn affect more properly than shifts between cultural mediums.
You have not given me any studies validating the assertion that early Northern Blacks, scored higher than Southern Whites. You quoted a very old study by Horace Mann Bond and I asked you to provide me with the entire peer reviewed study so that I may access it. Notice that unlike yourself, whenever I quote a study, I always cross-reference so that you all may validate them.
Posted by fawal (Member # 16388) on :
quote:The comparison of African-Americans and Jewish Americans compares a unique
Blacks have a 375-year history on this continent: 245 involving slavery, 100 involving legalized discrimination, and only 30 involving anything elsw. Jews to North America and included doctors, lawyers, professors, and entrepreneurs among their ranks. Moreover, European Jews are able to function as part of the White majority.
quote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EGLkvPfCbU
OH CRY ME A RIVER!!! First of all let me just make it perfectly clear, this world is composed of over 6 billion people, and most of us really couldn't give a f*ck about black americans pining over slavery. And secondly, blacks weren't by any means the only people who suffered. There is no group of people on the face of this earth who weren't enslaved at one point or another. Blacks weren't the only ones who were lynched during Jim Crow(in 1915 you had the lynching of Leo Frank a Jewish engineer, which was the catalyst behind the formation of the Anti-Defamation League). They weren't the only ones who had to endure segregation. Asians had to endure the Asian Exclusion Act, the Chinese Exclusion Act, the Japanese American Internment and not to mention working under virtual slave-like conditions in the construction of the Trans Continental Railroad. Jews have had to deal with over 2000 years of antisemetism. And furthermore if you have even bothered to do a little research you would know that the Irish, Germans, Jews, Italians, Spaniards, Hispanics, Slavs, and Greeks(i.e. non Anglo-Saxons), were not considered to be "white" at different points in american history(in the case of Jews it was not until after World War II). So as far as I am concerned, that excuse about racial discrimination really doesn't hold any merit.
Posted by ChairmanofBA (Member # 16757) on :
quote:Then why do you bring up democratic elections in a debate about economic development in Africa?
I believed it was a debate about the overall progression of Africa.
quote:How sad.
W
What's so sad about it? Do you think it's not a viable approximation? Or is it the lengthy amount of time.
quote:Yes there is a contradiction. First you said nothing was left for them,
I have never stated “nothing” was left for them. I did say they were left disenfranchised and totally unfit to run a government which I stand by.
quote: then you said "very little and inefficient training", now you switch from training in government and economics to them not teaching us about our history!
I never switched because a combination of these factors left Africa in its current condition.
quote: Are you serious?!! Why would they do that?!?!
I never said they had a reason to do so. I am saying Africa is in its current condition because they did not do so.
Posted by fawal (Member # 16388) on :
quote:IQ tests don't really mean anything. They don't measure musical, creativity, and artistic abilities.
I have highlighted some of the most recent scientific studies that completely knock down that position, and still you persist in expressing this antiquated view. So I will post them again:
Intelligence tests predict school performance fairly well, at least in American schools as they are now constituted. Similarly, achievement tests are fairly good predictors of performance in college and postgraduate settings.--Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns Report of a Task Force established by the Board of Scientific Affairs of the American Psychological Association Released August 7, 1995 LINK
Note that the general intelligence factor or 'g' is strongly predictive of academic performance. See the recent paper headed by Ian Deary: "Deary took the analysis a step further however and did a little latent variable modeling. As the IQ test had three components/subtests (verbal, nonverbal, quantitative), he correlated a latent g factor with a latent academic factor using the following subtests: English, English Literature, Math, Science, Geography, French (n=12519). The correlation between the latent factors was .81. That is: 66% of the variance in latent (general) academic achievement can be explained by latent cognitive ability---measured 5 years previously. Take home message: While general cognitive ability and academic achievement are not isomorphic, the former is necessary for the latter, while the converse is not necessarily true. Spearman suggested this more than a century ago, and, to quote the last sentence in Deary's work, These data establish the validity of g for this important life outcome. Ian J. Deary, Steve Strand, Pauline Smith and Cres Fernandes: Intelligence and educational achievement LINK (Actual Study) LINK (Commentary)
quote:Your IQ is not your destiny according to recent studies and it is also not need for success.
quote:I am interested in knowing why Blacks excel in sports which takes a high amount of cognitive abilities.
Professional athletes and especially those involved in team sports must operate within highly dynamic and multi-dimensional situational contexts (Vickers, 2007) requiring a very complex set of cognitive skills (see Kioumourtzoglou et al, 1998; Horgan and Tienson, 1992).
Athletes must be able to make split-second decisions under the pressures of competition (Vickers, 2007). Hundreds of times in the course of a basketball game, for instance, a player is faced with a decision that must be made rapidly, to shoot or pass, for example, and if to pass, to which teammate.
The player has to take in a complex, rapidly changing situation, and doing this requires a highly specialized and practiced kind of perceptual processing (Huciński et al, 2007; Apostolidis et al 2004; Wyżnikiewicz-Kopp, 1977;Horgan and Tienson, 1992).
There is a large amount of propositional information the players must apply to the scene to appropriately “take in” the situation. Some players are better at recognizing situations than others. Thus, players with similar physical abilities do not always respond in physically or behaviourally similar ways to similar situations, because their cognitive abilities and responses are different (Huciński et al, 2007; Horgan and Tienson, 1992).
In view of the diversity and variability of motor stimuli, basketball demands particular cognitive abilities to be able to adjust one’s internal states to diverse situations, or to think tactically (Huciński et al, 2007).
Besides decision making and perceptual skills there are also the basic properties that structure the game. For example, who is in the game? Of those in the game, who is a teammate and who is an opponent? This information is not literally contained in a perceptual or image-like representation of the situation. There are also more global properties of the game, such as the score, the time left on the time clock, the time left in the game, the coach's game plan and/or latest instructions, and what defense the opposition is playing. Second, there are specific properties of individual players: height, jumping ability, speed, shooting ability, and so forth. Third, there are more transient properties: who is guarding whom, what position each player is playing, who is having a good game and who isn't, who is shooting well, who is in foul trouble, etc. So sports which blacks dominate takes extreme amounts of cognitive abilities.
First of all, that part about sports requiring a large amount of cognitive ability is your opinion and that of the author of this article on Africa Resource. And secondly as far as the studies are concerned, I agree with them wholeheartedly. If you read this thread you would realize that I also expressed the view that blacks may have a genetic predisposition to excel in athletics. But a distinction must be made - the cognitive skills needed to dribble a ball, are not the same as the executive cognitive faculties needed to comprehend quantum thermodynamics; they are not the same as those required to understand the principles underlying game theory, or to understand numerical and symbolic computation, etc. - many of which are needed to be a productive member of the modern day capitalist world. Many of this was addressed in the study I posted above entitled "Why g matters."
quote:What do you have to say Fawwass?
How so very mature of you. Posted by fawal (Member # 16388) on :
quote:We also need to have Black Supremacist psychologists write books opposite of Race, Evolution, and Behavior.
By this statement I am guessing that you are implying that all the researchers that I cited are somehow "white supremacist." Produce evidence that all of these people are "white supremacist":
quote:Imhotep a black man produced medical scripts predating Hippocrates existence.
Here are two forums frequented by actual egyptologists: Egyptologists' Electronic Forum In The Hall of Maat That first forum is private, so you first need to email the forum moderator to request access. Ask the actual experts on those forums if Imhotep was a black african, and see what they tell you.
quote:Whites people also teach they invented the Pythagoras theorem when it was used in Egypt FIRST!
1. Chinese (+6 grades); 2. Black African (+5 grades), 3. Indian (+4.5 grades); 4. Bangladeshi (+4 grades); 5. Pakistani (+3 grades); 6. Caribbean (+2.5 grades); 7. Female (+2 grades); 8. White British Male (0)
That Africa Resource article shows that African Immigrants are more educated(as in have more degrees) than Asians yes, however it does not prove that Africans are more intelligent(as measured through IQ or "g") than Asians. As far as the GCSE results, I have already beaten that to death: the immigrant groups each represent a distinct cognitive elite. The results that you posted above shows THE AVERAGE for each group. The United Kingdom is a very homogeneous country; there are almost no minorities outside of the industrial centers of London, Manchester and Leeds. Comparing the large white population(92%) against the much smaller immigrant populations and trying to extrapolate and say that this proves that blacks are more intelligent than whites is statistically inaccurate.
I won't bother to comment on Botswana because I think Bogle has done an adequate job on that already.
Posted by ChairmanofBA (Member # 16757) on :
First of all this has absolutely nothing to do with “crying a river” because you asked why Jewish Americans outperformed African-Americans. I am fully aware that all groups of people have been enslaved but disregarding the slavery that is taking place in select regions of Africa our enslavement happened most recently. Also none-blacks being lynched was a minority and doesn’t have much to do with anything. Blacks were denied RIGHTS and current whites indirectly benefited from slavery by having less competition for schools, admissions, jobs, and government programs. Sure there have been some programs set up to reconcile this discrimination but they haven’t been in effect for to long. The Asian exclusion act prevented Asians from entering America. That’s all! That’s not a law that will affect you for generations to come. And Japanese building the railroads does not even begin to compare with the horrible conditions blacks went through. Jews had to deal with 2000 years of anti-Semitism and the holocaust but guess what? They get over billions of dollars a year because of it which has aided in there progression. The Irish, Germans, Jews, Italians, Spaniards, Hispanics, Slavs, and Greeks never faced the kind of discrimination blacks faced. Don’t even try to make the comparison.
Posted by fawal (Member # 16388) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Why you guys even bother to address the idiot Kemp in matters as mundane as this is beyone me!
All the idiot has is his stupid Bell Curve studies which were DEBUNKED long time ago!!
First of all I am not "Kemp," and despite what many of you may believe, I am not a racist either. And secondly if you actually took the time to read through all of those studies that I posted above in bold, you would notice that absolutely none of them came from "The Bell Curve." Now I have read through many of those articles in that link you have provided and many of them are claiming that IQ is environmental and not genetic: This is not in keeping with the most recent scientific research(discovered in March of this year)!
Posted by ChairmanofBA (Member # 16757) on :
quote:By this statement I am guessing that you are implying that all the researchers that I cited are somehow "white supremacist." Produce evidence that all of these people are "white supremacist":
quote: Here are two forums frequented by actual egyptologists: Egyptologists' Electronic Forum In The Hall of Maat That first forum is private, so you first need to email the forum moderator to request access. Ask the actual experts on those forums if Imhotep was a black african, and see what they tell you.
So since your internet buddies think Egypt wasen't black it wasen't? Yawn!
German Institute for Archaeology -excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. In several of the noble specimens: "The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin." (Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues", Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13)
"The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the "super-Negroid" body plan described by Robins (1983).. This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations." (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.
"..After studying all the data, particularly after analyzing the computerized ethcings, one can certainly see that the royal mummies displayed high frequencies of African traits shared with most Africans. Thus, the royal mummies display a strong southern affinity just like other ancient Egyptians of all classes studied by Cheikh Anta Diop, Larry Angel and Shomarqa Keita." James Harris and Edward Wente, X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980)
quote: There is absolutely no evidence to support the notion that the Ancient Egyptians ever discovered the Pythagorean Theorem; See: The Pythagorean theorem: a 4,000-year history by Eli Maor See Also: The Myth of Egyptian Pi Irrational Numbers and Pyramids
Your correct they were not the first to discover the Pythagorean theorem but there is evidence they introduced it to the Greeks.
quote: have highlighted some of the most recent scientific studies that completely knock down that position, and still you persist in expressing this antiquated view. So I will post them again:
Intelligence tests predict school performance fairly well, at least in American schools as they are now constituted. Similarly, achievement tests are fairly good predictors of performance in college and postgraduate settings.--Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns Report of a Task Force established by the Board of Scientific Affairs of the American Psychological Association Released August 7, 1995 LINK
Note that the general intelligence factor or 'g' is strongly predictive of academic performance. See the recent paper headed by Ian Deary: "Deary took the analysis a step further however and did a little latent variable modeling. As the IQ test had three components/subtests (verbal, nonverbal, quantitative), he correlated a latent g factor with a latent academic factor using the following subtests: English, English Literature, Math, Science, Geography, French (n=12519). The correlation between the latent factors was .81. That is: 66% of the variance in latent (general) academic achievement can be explained by latent cognitive ability---measured 5 years previously. Take home message: While general cognitive ability and academic achievement are not isomorphic, the former is necessary for the latter, while the converse is not necessarily true. Spearman suggested this more than a century ago, and, to quote the last sentence in Deary's work, These data establish the validity of g for this important life outcome. Ian J. Deary, Steve Strand, Pauline Smith and Cres Fernandes: Intelligence and educational achievement LINK (Actual Study) LINK (Commentary)
IQ test do not measure musical, creativity, artistic abilities and other areas blacks excel in. As far as intelligence tests predicting school performance fairly well you have some explaining to do.
Why are blacks outpreforming whites in school performance?
1. Chinese (+6 grades); 2. Black African (+5 grades), 3. Indian (+4.5 grades); 4. Bangladeshi (+4 grades); 5. Pakistani (+3 grades); 6. Caribbean (+2.5 grades); 7. Female (+2 grades); 8. White British Male (0)
ChairmanofBA, as far as I am concerned you really shouldn't be discussing this issue of blacks and intelligence; because you really do not help the case for many intelligent-minded blacks.
quote:I never said they were white supremacist.
I never said that you said that they were white supremacist, I merely articulated that you were implying that they were with your snide remark that blacks should have their own black supremacist psychologists publish "pseudo-science" to refute Jensen and his ilk.
quote:So since your internet buddies think Egypt wasen't black it wasen't? Yawn!
Those people are not my "internet buddies." They are actual egyptologists and anthropologists who have actually practiced their professions for years, and are far more well versed on the issue than all of the "experts" on this forum combined.
quote:Your correct they were not the first to discover the Pythagorean theorem but there is evidence they introduced it to the Greeks.
There is no credible evidence to support the notion that the Egyptians knew of the Pythagorean Theorem, let alone introduced it to the Greeks. I have given you three links done by actual professionals that supports this. That link that you provided that incidentally "proves" that they influenced the Greeks is unsourced. On the other hand, all of the links that I provided you are - for every point made, there is an actual citation verifying that point.
quote:IQ test do not measure musical, creativity, artistic abilities and other areas blacks excel in. As far as intelligence tests predicting school performance fairly well you have some explaining to do.
Why are blacks outpreforming whites in school performance?
1. Chinese (+6 grades); 2. Black African (+5 grades), 3. Indian (+4.5 grades); 4. Bangladeshi (+4 grades); 5. Pakistani (+3 grades); 6. Caribbean (+2.5 grades); 7. Female (+2 grades); 8. White British Male (0)
If you carefully read through each of my most recent posts, in contiguous order, you will see that I have addressed all of this.
Posted by ChairmanofBA (Member # 16757) on :
quote:That Africa Resource article shows that African Immigrants are more educated(as in have more degrees) than Asians yes, however it does not prove that Africans are more intelligent(as measured through IQ or "g") than Asians.
This is just further evidence that IQ tests do not measure intelligence. Obtaining a degree takes a considerable amount of intelligence yet Black Africans outperform Asians. What could this possibly mean?
How can Blacks outperform Asians and whites academically yet have lower intelligence? Does obtaining a degree not take intelligence?
1. Chinese (+6 grades); 2. Black African (+5 grades), 3. Indian (+4.5 grades); 4. Bangladeshi (+4 grades); 5. Pakistani (+3 grades); 6. Caribbean (+2.5 grades); 7. Female (+2 grades); 8. White British Male (0)
quote: As far as the GCSE results, I have already beaten that to death: the immigrant groups each represent a distinct cognitive elite. The results that you posted above shows THE AVERAGE for each group.
Just like IQ statistics show THE AVERAGE for each groups. On average Indians, Black Africans, and Caribbeans are outperforming white Britons. Fact!
quote: The United Kingdom is a very homogeneous country; there are almost no minorities outside of the industrial centers of London, Manchester and Leeds. Comparing the large white population(92%) against the much smaller immigrant populations and trying to extrapolate and say that this proves that blacks are more intelligent than whites is statistically inaccurate.
The dominate class should be outperforming the minorities academically according to this study.
According to you high intelligence correlates with high academic performance and not the other way around. Yet Black Immigrants are outperforming the dominate group despite the disadvantage.
That’s telling………………
Posted by ChairmanofBA (Member # 16757) on :
quote: ChairmanofBA, as far as I am concerned you really shouldn't be discussing this issue of blacks and intelligence; because you really do not help the case for many intelligent-minded blacks.
I will take your advice not for your retarded reasons though.
quote: Those people are not my "internet buddies." They are actual egyptologists and anthropologists who have actually practiced their professions for years, and are far more well versed on the issue than all of the "experts" on this forum combined.
Show me the field of their work! Here is what prominent anthropologists had to say
German Institute for Archaeology -excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. In several of the noble specimens: "The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin." (Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues", Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13)
"The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the "super-Negroid" body plan described by Robins (1983).. This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations." (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.
"..After studying all the data, particularly after analyzing the computerized ethcings, one can certainly see that the royal mummies displayed high frequencies of African traits shared with most Africans. Thus, the royal mummies display a strong southern affinity just like other ancient Egyptians of all classes studied by Cheikh Anta Diop, Larry Angel and Shomarqa Keita." James Harris and Edward Wente, X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980)
The following quotes are primary sources.
"Ethiopians say also that the Egyptians are colonists sent out by the Ethiopians, Osiris having been the leader of the colony...And the larger part of the customs of the Egyptians are, they hold, Ethiopian..." (Diodorus Siculus, Book III. 2. 4-3. 3)
"Why are the Ethiopians and Egyptians bandy-legged? Is it because of that the body of itself creates, because of disturbance by heat, like loss of wood when they become dry? The condition of their hair supports this theory; for it is curlier than that of other nations..." (Aristotle, _Problemata_ 909, 7)
"Those who are too black are cowards, like for instance, the Egyptians and Ethiopians. But those who are excessively white are also cowards as we can see from the example of women, the complexion of courage is between the two." (?) (Aristotle, _Physiognomy_, 6)
So primary sources are wrong but your friends over at those other forums are correct:?
quote: There is no credible evidence to support the notion that the Egyptians knew of the Pythagorean TheoremI have given you three links done by actual professionals that supports this. That link that you provided that incidentally "proves" that they influenced the Greeks is unsourced. On the other hand, all of the links that I provided you are - for every point made, there is an actual citation verifying that point.
,
I reviewed your sources and it turns out your correct. Egypt did however contribute so much to the world in other ways. Like Imhotep who is the real father of medicine.
quote:
If you carefully read through each of my most recent posts, in contiguous order, you will see that I have addressed all of this.
The dominate class should be outperforming the minorities academically according to this study.
According to you high intelligence correlates with high academic performance and not the other way around. Yet Black Immigrants are outperforming the dominate group despite the disadvantage.
Anyways I am out of here reading all of this pseudo scientific nonsense while trying to complete a thesis statement so I finish off my sophomore year of high-school just isn't healthy on my intellectual endeavors..... Don't take this as me waving the white flag either I just don't want to take part in this debate because its just not healthy.
I enjoyed the debate and the learning process though
peace
Posted by Kemp (Member # 16733) on :
That dim-witted jungle monkey ChairmanofBA gave up on proving white and black equality. Thanks to you Fawass he now believes Aryans are the true master race. ChairmanofBA you should drop out of school while you’re on top only 30% of African Americans receive a diploma anyways.
Posted by fawal (Member # 16388) on :
ChairmanofBA, you are not thinking.
quote:This is just further evidence that IQ tests do not measure intelligence. Obtaining a degree takes a considerable amount of intelligence yet Black Africans outperform Asians. What could this possibly mean?
How can Blacks outperform Asians and whites academically yet have lower intelligence? Does obtaining a degree not take intelligence?
Nowhere did I ever state that earning a degree does not require intelligence. The link that you posted to the article from Africa Resource merely states that Black African immigrants earn more degrees as opposed to other groups. As I already pointed out, this does not prove that Black Africans are more intelligent than other groups: earning a degree in art history, is not the same as earning one in theoretical physics; likewise, earning an associates degree is not the same as earning a PHD. As far as the issue of the whether or not IQ is an accurate measure of intelligence, and whether or not it has a genetic basis, I have already articulated that on the second page of this thread (all those studies I posted in bold) and via this link here highlighting the results of the most recent scientific research.
quote:Just like IQ statistics show THE AVERAGE for each groups. On average Indians, Black Africans, and Caribbeans are outperforming white Britons. Fact!
Again, as I already pointed out, the groups you are referring to comprise a very small portion of the British population; and they also represent a "cognitive elite." It is therefore statistically inaccurate to extrapolate from these minute segments of the British population and deduce that they are somehow more intelligent than the British cognitive elite.
quote:The dominate class should be outperforming the minorities academically according to this study.
According to you high intelligence correlates with high academic performance and not the other way around. Yet Black Immigrants are outperforming the dominate group despite the disadvantage.
That’s telling………………
You have obviously not read your own source. According to your link the subordinate classes in Britain are the Irish and Scots, not Black Africans. I have already addressed John Ogbu and his "caste-like" minority hypothesis, its late and right now I'm really tired. I may expand on this later today.
quote:Show me the field of their work! Here is what prominent anthropologists had to say
German Institute for Archaeology -excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. In several of the noble specimens: "The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin." (Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues", Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13)
"The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the "super-Negroid" body plan described by Robins (1983).. This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations." (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.
"..After studying all the data, particularly after analyzing the computerized ethcings, one can certainly see that the royal mummies displayed high frequencies of African traits shared with most Africans. Thus, the royal mummies display a strong southern affinity just like other ancient Egyptians of all classes studied by Cheikh Anta Diop, Larry Angel and Shomarqa Keita." James Harris and Edward Wente, X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980)
The following quotes are primary sources.
"Ethiopians say also that the Egyptians are colonists sent out by the Ethiopians, Osiris having been the leader of the colony...And the larger part of the customs of the Egyptians are, they hold, Ethiopian..." (Diodorus Siculus, Book III. 2. 4-3. 3)
"Why are the Ethiopians and Egyptians bandy-legged? Is it because of that the body of itself creates, because of disturbance by heat, like loss of wood when they become dry? The condition of their hair supports this theory; for it is curlier than that of other nations..." (Aristotle, _Problemata_ 909, 7)
"Those who are too black are cowards, like for instance, the Egyptians and Ethiopians. But those who are excessively white are also cowards as we can see from the example of women, the complexion of courage is between the two." (?) (Aristotle, _Physiognomy_, 6)
So primary sources are wrong but your friends over at those other forums are correct:?
I'm not getting into the entire issue regarding the race of the Ancient Egyptians for two reasons: 1) That isn't what this thread is about. 2) You obviously seem very emotionally invested in the Egyptians being Black Africans, so I really don't want to disappoint you.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
fawal quote: I'm not getting into the entire issue regarding the race of the Ancient Egyptians for two reasons: 1) That isn't what this thread is about. 2) You obviously seem very emotionally invested in the Egyptians being Black Africans, so I really don't want to disappoint you.
Hey fawal, nice touch; dismissively condescending without being overtly contradictory or argumentative; you must be an old hand at this.
But you are an intelligent (I am sure) human being, so I am interested in your true and innermost thoughts regarding this matter. So lets set the parameters and see where it goes.
The prevailing opinion here, is that the Egyptians were Africans (Black people), living in Africa, and living a fundamentally African existence in culture and technology.
This opinion is based on uninterrupted archeological data, which traces them moving up through Sudan from central Africa; and artifacts like statues and paintings (which they made themselves), and in which they clearly depicted themselves as Black people.
This evidence seems incontrovertible to people of good faith and science, but you seem to have a contrary opinion, so would you please share it, and the evidence that you have to support your contrary position.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by fawal: There is absolutely no evidence to support the notion that the Ancient Egyptians ever discovered the Pythagorean Theorem;
There is no evidence there was even a Pythagoras. Your own source says everything you read about him must be taken with a grain of salt. So how do we attribute discoveries to someone your "experts" aren't even sure existed? And your sources cant agree among themselves about whether the Egyptians even knew of the 3:4:5 right-angled triangle. Robins and Shute do not agree with your other sources.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by fawal:
There is absolutely no evidence to support the notion that the Ancient Egyptians ever discovered the Pythagorean Theorem;
Must not be aware of the so-called "Moscow" papyrus. And oh yeah, the great pyramids were built with obvious care to dimensions without any mathematical insight; makes perfect sense.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
The Explorer - I wasn't aware that a public institution had verified the Egyptians contributions to science and technology. That certainly puts a damper on the White Greek bullsh1t. Thanks for the post.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^^fawal - That makes at least TWO things that you need to address.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
fawal, fawal - Has anybody seen fawal?
He was here just a while ago, but now he seems to have disappeared. I wonder what happened. Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by fawal:
There is absolutely no evidence to support the notion that the Ancient Egyptians ever discovered the Pythagorean Theorem;
Must not be aware of the so-called "Moscow" papyrus. And oh yeah, the great pyramids were built with obvious care to dimensions without any mathematical insight; makes perfect sense.
Perhaps he has it they probably borrowed that information from Jewish Caucasian Greek slave pyramid-builders.
Posted by fawal (Member # 16388) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: fawal, fawal - Has anybody seen fawal?
He was here just a while ago, but now he seems to have disappeared. I wonder what happened.
I haven't gone anywhere Mike111; unlike many of the simpletons here, I actually have far more productive things to do with my life than spending 20 hours a day on egyptsearch. Posted by fawal (Member # 16388) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: fawal quote: I'm not getting into the entire issue regarding the race of the Ancient Egyptians for two reasons: 1) That isn't what this thread is about. 2) You obviously seem very emotionally invested in the Egyptians being Black Africans, so I really don't want to disappoint you.
Hey fawal, nice touch; dismissively condescending without being overtly contradictory or argumentative; you must be an old hand at this.
But you are an intelligent (I am sure) human being, so I am interested in your true and innermost thoughts regarding this matter. So lets set the parameters and see where it goes.
The prevailing opinion here, is that the Egyptians were Africans (Black people), living in Africa, and living a fundamentally African existence in culture and technology.
This opinion is based on uninterrupted archeological data, which traces them moving up through Sudan from central Africa; and artifacts like statues and paintings (which they made themselves), and in which they clearly depicted themselves as Black people.
This evidence seems incontrovertible to people of good faith and science, but you seem to have a contrary opinion, so would you please share it, and the evidence that you have to support your contrary position.
If you all want to debate about the race of the Ancient Egyptians then you can always start a new thread here. But my guess is that none of you will. And do you know why that is? Its because the posters here would only debate like-minded dunderheads on sites like Shifting Sands or Stormfront. None of you here would dare to duke it out and go mono-e-mono against the very same egyptologists that so many of you love to accuse of "Eurocentrism," simply due to the fact that you all subconciously know that you would have all of your arguments easily shot down. Its pathetic really. Posted by fawal (Member # 16388) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle:
quote:Originally posted by fawal: There is absolutely no evidence to support the notion that the Ancient Egyptians ever discovered the Pythagorean Theorem;
There is no evidence there was even a Pythagoras. Your own source says everything you read about him must be taken with a grain of salt. So how do we attribute discoveries to someone your "experts" aren't even sure existed? And your sources cant agree among themselves about whether the Egyptians even knew of the 3:4:5 right-angled triangle. Robins and Shute do not agree with your other sources.
OK, first of all where on earth did you get the fallacious idea that there isn't any evidence that Pythagoras even existed? A cursory search on the internet will yield you a wealth of information regarding Pythagoras' life and work (See here, here, and here). Secondly, whether or not the Egyptians actually knew of the 3:4:5 triangle is a matter that is of yet not entirely resolved. I think you are misreading that Robins and Shute article. They are not arguing that the Egyptians did in fact know of this Pythagorean Triple, but rather are showing ways to which they may have derived it. In that article they specifically said:
quote:We do not claim that the Egyptians necessarily did use the method of calculation outlined above, although they could have, but we give it because it can readily yield any Pythagorean triple, and because of the slur, which we think to be unjustified, that the Egyptians were mathematically inept, and hampered by being harnessed to unit fractions. [34] In fact, some of the calculations in the mathematical papyri are quite complex. Moreover, it would be wrong to suppose that what survives in such student manuals represents the sum total of ancient Egyptian mathematical knowledge.
Posted by fawal (Member # 16388) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by fawal:
There is absolutely no evidence to support the notion that the Ancient Egyptians ever discovered the Pythagorean Theorem;
Must not be aware of the so-called "Moscow" papyrus. And oh yeah, the great pyramids were built with obvious care to dimensions without any mathematical insight; makes perfect sense.
The Explorer, I can tell that simple reading comprehension obviously isn't your strong point. You, like ChairmanofBA, really shouldn't be posting in a thread entitled "Blacks and Intelligence." Read your link carefully! There is absolutely nothing in that source dealing with a derivation for the Pythagorean Theorem. When you click on the heading entitled "The Pythagorean Theorem" at the top of that screen, it takes you to Problem 10. That problem has absolutely nothing to do with the Pythagorean Theorem, triangles, or pyramids but rather shows the derivation for the surface area of a hemisphere. Problem 14 deals with the volume of a frustum. I will repeat again (and hopefully this time it will sink in), there is absolutely no evidence to support the notion that the Ancient Egyptians ever knew of the Pythagorean Theorem. See: Mathimatics in Ancient Egypt Pyramid Construction Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
fawal - You make such a pathetic supremacist - you source your foolishness to a forum page???
I had hoped to get some enjoyment out of kicking your pale butt around these pages for a while, but you are pure ignorant bullsh1t, incapable of providing anything worthwhile to argue about.
And you don't even comprehend your own quotes.
fawal Quote: - In fact, some of the calculations in the mathematical papyri are quite complex. Moreover, it would be wrong to suppose that what survives in such student manuals represents the sum total of ancient Egyptian mathematical knowledge.
{The repository of Egyptian knowledge - the Alexandria Library - was destroyed by a fire started by Whites in 48 B.C.}
This was of course AFTER Whitie had transcribed all knowledge contained within, and carried it off to their newly conquered lands of Greece and Italy. Them being originally ignorant and illiterate Nomads, they needed to steal everything that they could get their hands on. This, because initially, they didn't know how to make anything that they had taken from the Black Europeans work!
The Berlin Papyrus
The Berlin Papyrus 6619, commonly known as the Berlin Papyrus is an ancient Egyptian papyrus document from the Middle Kingdom. This papyrus was found at the ancient burial ground of Saqqara in the early 19th century CE.
The papyrus is one of the primary sources of ancient Egyptian mathematical and medical knowledge, including the first known documentation concerning pregnancy test procedures, and is thus part of the medical papyri.
The Berlin Papyrus contains a problem stated as "the area of a square of 100 is equal to that of two smaller squares. The side of one is ½ + ¼ the side of the other." The interest in the question may suggest some knowledge of the Pythagorean theorem, though more likely the data shows a straight forward solution of two second degree variables stated as one unknown, and not two unknowns, as reported by Scott Williams:
"100 square cubits is equal to that of two smaller squares, the side of one square is 1/2 + 1/4 of the other. What are the sides of the two unknown squares.
In modern terms we would express this as x2 + y2 = 100 and x = (3/4)y. What are x and y? A modern solution in this form might be ((3/4)y)2 + y2 = 100 implies (1 + 9/16)y2 = (25/16)y2 = 100 implies y2 =(16/25)100 = 64 implies y=8 and x= (3/4)8 = 6.
However, most translators believe the egyptians viewed this problem the way we do the simultaneous equations
x2 + y2 = 100 4x - 3y = 0 What are x and y?
Here was their solution. Assume the square of the first side (y) to be 1 cubit. Then the other side (x) will be 1/2 + 1/4. Then y2 = 1, and using Egyptian multiplication we determine x2 with 1 1/2 + 1/4 1/2* 1/4 + 1/8 1/4* 1/8 + 1/16 1/2 + 1/4 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/8 + 1/16 = 1/2 + 1/16
So x2 = 1/2 + 1/16. Thus, x2 + y2 = 1 + 1/2 + 1/16. Now (1 + 1/2 + 1/16)1/2 = 1 + 1/4 and (100)1/2 = 10 (we will discuss square roots later). Divide 10 by 1 + 1/4 and you get 8 (see the method of problem 24). So we get y=8. The Berlin Papyrus contains damage here so we can at best assume the solution for x was to divide 8 by 1/2 + 1/4 (as in the method of problem 24) to achieve x=6.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote: OK, first of all where on earth did you get the fallacious idea that there isn't any evidence that Pythagoras even existed?
Well that's my conclusion [or Initial reaction] from your own source which says everything you read about him must be taken with a grain of salt... everything. I'm thinking "yeh kinna like Jesus Christ" here. lol
Clearly you were not being honest with your own sources which is why for instance you no longer cite Robins and Shute in your posts about the "Pythagorean Theorem" anymore but source wiki and a chat room instead. LOL.
Personally I think he did exist but like all legends what is attributed to him is perhaps mostly fable. Now I can understand you want to run to other sources after your "actual professionals" undermine you [serve you right for not reading your sources] but everything means everything.
quote: Secondly, whether or not the Egyptians actually knew of the 3:4:5 triangle is a matter that is of yet not entirely resolved. I think you are misreading that Robins and Shute article.They are not arguing that the Egyptians did in fact know of this Pythagorean Triple,
I never said they said Egyptinas knew, read slowly, I said your sources don't agree that there is no evidence. Not knowing this you used them to back you your initial claim that there was no evidence Egyptians ever knew of it; but clearly Robins and Shute show that there is some, thus they don't agree with the slur, e.g. van der Waerden cited as evidence by your other source Eli.
Yes one could argue for his existence but it's inferred from available evidence, no matter how slim; Egyptian knowledge of the theorem is also inferred from evidence. Whether or not you choose to believe one line of evidence and not the other depends on your agenda, and we all know yours.
Its the same with the debate over claims of Jewish [and other white peoples] genetic genius and concomitant black inferiority: you choose to believe one side, perhaps misrepresenting your own sources here too, as clearly, you are not in a habit of reading them.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: fawal, fawal - Has anybody seen fawal?
He was here just a while ago, but now he seems to have disappeared. I wonder what happened.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:fawal
The Explorer, I can tell that simple reading comprehension obviously isn't your strong point. You, like ChairmanofBA, really shouldn't be posting in a thread entitled "Blacks and Intelligence." Read your link carefully! There is absolutely nothing in that source dealing with a derivation for the Pythagorean Theorem. When you click on the heading entitled "The Pythagorean Theorem" at the top of that screen, it takes you to Problem 10. That problem has absolutely nothing to do with the Pythagorean Theorem, triangles, or pyramids but rather shows the derivation for the surface area of a hemisphere. Problem 14 deals with the volume of a frustum. I will repeat again (and hopefully this time it will sink in), there is absolutely no evidence to support the notion that the Ancient Egyptians ever knew of the Pythagorean Theorem. See: Mathimatics in Ancient Egypt Pyramid Construction
It isn't exactly a mystery that acting human is definitely not your strong suit. You could not have possibly come out of a household with a father figure, or one under the care of a human being. Do you approach every person you immediately get into contact with, with savagery? What are you fed, man; raw human meat?
Of course, the point of the link was to show that, contrary to your belief system, there is actual primary material that bespeaks the alertness of ancient Egyptians of the principle of what would eventually become the so-called Pythagorean. The site, which clearly notifies that it is 'under construction', cites *specific* primary material to this end, and it thereafter falls upon you, to simply look up the said references. Apparently, this 'evident' self-responsibility was not all too evident to you, complaining about it not going as far as spoon feeding you through the actual equations as an excuse to dismiss the evidence; fair enough then, as what follows here now, both sources that are open-minded about ancient Egyptian alertness to the so-called Pythagorean principle and those that are close-minded about it, simply reinforce what that site was linked for:
Lumpkin, Beatrice. Note: the Egyptians and Pythagorean triples. Historia Math. 7 (1980), no. 2, 186--187. SC: 01A15, MR: 81c:01004.
The author notes that some ancient Egyptian problems suggest a knowledge of certain Pythagorean triangles. For example, in the Berlin Papyrus there are problems where a given square is to be written as the sum of two squares in a given ratio. The solutions involve the fact that 62+82=102 and 122+162=202; these facts are familiar to us from our knowledge of the (3,4,5) right triangle. She also notes that the Egyptian units of measurement suggest a knowledge of the Pythagorean theorem in the special case of an isosceles right triangle. "The double remen is the diagonal of a square whose side was one cubit. By changing the units of measurement from cubits to double remens, the area of a figure would be doubled." - courtesy of http://mtcs.truman.edu/~thammond/history/PythagoreanTriangles.html
History of mathematics
The area of study known as the history of mathematics is primarily an investigation into the origin of new discoveries in mathematics and, to a lesser extent, an investigation into the standard mathematical methods and notation of the past.
Before the modern age and the worldwide spread of knowledge, written examples of new mathematical developments have come to light only in a few locales. The most ancient mathematical texts available are Plimpton 322 (Babylonian mathematics ca. 1900 BC), the Moscow Mathematical Papyrus (Egyptian mathematics ca. 1850 BC), the Rhind Mathematical Papyrus (Egyptian mathematics ca. 1650 BC), and the Shulba Sutras (Indian mathematics ca. 800 BC). All of these texts concern the so-called Pythagorean theorem, which seems to be the most ancient and widespread mathematical development after basic arithmetic and geometry. - courtesy of http://www.iwymicsa.co.za/?page=home
Even this unapologetically Eurocentric author could not help it, but at least note,...
Proof based mathematics are unquestionable.Non proof based mathematics are arguable as the mathematical problems are supported by suspicion rather than reason. If no good explanation is given then the problem cannot be credible. For example, the Pythagorean Theorem is named after the Greek Pythagoras since he proved it. This theorem was used way before by the Babylonians, the Egyptians and even the Chinese. The Cairo Mathematical papyrus, an Egyptian papyrus dating from about 300 B.C, contains forty problems; nine of them deal exclusively with the Pythagorean Theorem. The papyrus show that Egyptians not only knew that 3, 4, 5 triangle is right angled, but that 5, 12, 13 and 20, 21, 29 were right angles as well. The 3, 4, 5 triangle as a right triangle also appears in the Chớu-peï, the oldest know Chinese mathematical work, which may date back to the second millennium B.C.(Eves 65) Unfortunately, these old civilizations used suspicion and intuition instead of reason, therefore understanding was not reliable. - Prof Roypal, link: http://faculty.csuci.edu/roger.roybal/teaching/spring09/math331/project1/P1_459.pdf
Now of course, the fellow feels that since in areas like Egypt, where fragile medium has rendered survival of much of the primary academia material relatively scarce, that this must surely be indicative of what amounts to the said ancients' heavy reliance on untested "superstitious" belief apparatus that were put into undertaking practical particulars of life, like say, pyramid designing and construction thereof. It's not even as much that the ancient Egyptians didn't jot down the principles behind analytical concepts; rather, its just that we haven't been for fortunate enough to uncover a great deal of it; that's what it is. However, as several observers have noted time and again, one senses from the meager document collection that is available, that ancient Egyptian intuition into Pythagorean principle is any but mere suspicion; this link seems to follow that theme: http://www.math.washington.edu/~greenber/PiPyr.html
It notes, for example...
There is also a frequently mentioned relationship between the Great Pyramid and the number φ, which I will now discuss. The legend that the architect who designed the Great Pyramid of Khufu intentionally incorporated the Golden Mean (which is this number φ) into the proportions of that structure seems to have its roots in a misunderstanding or distortion of the writings of Herodotus. The story goes as follows: Herodotus learned from Egyptian priests that the Great Pyramid was built so that the square whose side is the height of the Great Pyramid will have an area equal to that of each of the Pyramid's faces. Based on this statement, it is not difficult to derive the famous relationship between the Great Pyramid and the number φ. The derivation makes use of the Pythagorean theorem and is described here.
This serves as one amongst others, to reiterate the point that the Great pyramid dimensions are telltale signs that these constructions were not undertaken via some mindless brainstorming sessions involving superstitious guidance concept of hit-and-miss approach to getting a workable or the designed goal, but actually via well-thought out and thought through quantitative analytical concepts.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
^ In the way of the ongoing theme, another source says...
One theory about the construction of the pyramids involves the use of special right triangles. The Egyptians may have used (wooden?) right triangles during the construction process to help determine the slope of the pyramid...
Pyramids and Mathematical Papyri
Problems 56 - 59 of the Rhind Mathematical Papyrus compute the seqed of a triangle. The seqed is related to the slope of the side of the pyramid. If we look at a triangular cross section, then the seqed is defined to be (1/2 base of the pyramid) / height.
It site reiterates the often observed aspect of the great pyramids, in that their designs involved calculation...a mathematical one, not superstitious; for more, see: http://math.slu.edu/escher/index.php/The_Pyramids
As for Pythagoras himself, while in the process reiterating what has already been noted, perhaps, one site put it nicely in a bundle:...
The Pythagorean Theorem is one of Euclidean Geometry's most beautiful theorems. It is simple, yet obscure, and is used continuously in mathematics and physics. In short, it is really cool.
Evidence of the theorem can be traced far back into Egyptian history with the help of the Rhind Papyrus(1788-1580 BC). The Rhind Papyrus itself claims to be a copy of an earlier work, possibly dating as far back as 2000 BC. The use of the 3-4-5 triangles(9+16=25) to construct perfect right angles, indeed seems to have been a very common practice, long ago. Unfortunately, little information predates the Greeks, so this will probably remain another mystery of the Egyptians. Traditionally, however, the theorem has been credited [in western culture] to Pythagoras of Samos. The legend has it that he was so excited by its proof that he sacrificed a bull for the occasion, even though Pythagoreans were against animal sacrifice. Unfortunately, there are only legends. The Pythagorean School, which gets its name from its founder, was a secret cult. They regarded their knowledge as something to be kept from all outsiders. Thus, they did not write things down until the cult began to lose prominence several generations later, leaving posterity with a void where the life of Pythagoras should have been. Consequently, classicists do not know if Pythagoras was actually responsible for the first proof.
How does one prove this enigma? The geometry books I have had experience with turned this rose into a briar. Unfortunately, nobody knows how "Pythagoras" originally proved the theorem, but here are three ways.
This first method is one of the ways the Pythagoreans would have proved the theorem. Unfortunately, it lacks glamour. In the following picture let ABC be a right triangle and BD be a segment drawn perpendicular to AC.
Since the triangles are similar, the sides must be of proportional lengths.
AB/AD=AC/AB, or AB x AB = AD x AC BC/CD=AC/BC, or BC x BC= AC x CD
Then, adding the two together, BC^2 + AB^2 = (AD + DC) x AC= AC^2
Guess who else made it a point to hide academic "body of knowledge" from the world outside of the circles of religious neophytes and authorities? Yeap, the ancient Egyptian scribes. Indeed, "pyramids" were not a Greek "thing" to begin with, whereas it was, with regards to Kemet. And so, it is no mystery that whatever Pythagoras and co. acquired about triangles and pyramids, comes from what they learned from the Egyptians while in ancient Egypt; no genius is required to put the two together...
Pythagoras probably also absorbed much knowledge from his travels through the ancient world, particularly Egypt and Persia. What is certainly known is that he founded the Pythagorean School in the outskirts of the Greek empire, on the southeast coast of modern Italy. - courtesy of Daniel Vikum, cs.middlebury.edu
On that note, you'll hopefully be more human-like, if or when you address me in your next reply; and I'd like to point out that those links of your's are just worthless. That link on the pyramids for instance, contains some pointless rambling by a self-admitted clueless character on the subject matter, on how the pyramids might have been built, and nothing relevant on the underlying analytical features of the pyramid's dimensions whatsoever, which is what I alluded to. So, guess whose been struggling with his/her reading comprehension after all?
Posted by fawal (Member # 16388) on :
quote:fawal - You make such a pathetic supremacist - you source your foolishness to a forum page???
I had hoped to get some enjoyment out of kicking your pale butt around these pages for a while, but you are pure ignorant bullsh1t, incapable of providing anything worthwhile to argue about.
Typical really. Its exactly as I thought. You all would never step outside your comfort zones and actually debate all of the "issues" that are frequently raised on this forum in an actual scholarly setting. Also, if you don't mind me asking, just what exactly are the qualifications of the posters on this board? Do any of you actually have any formal training in the areas that so many of you love to pontificate? Are there any actual egyptologists here? How about archeologists? Anthropologists perhaps? Or, is it as I suspect, that the very few of you who actually have a degree have it in such "disciplines" as "Africana" or "Black Studies."
Kicking my butt? Don't make me laugh! What I find quite odd, is the fact that so many of you are so eager to deflect away from the initial topic of this thread of "Blacks and Intelligence." Am I then to assume that you all have decided to throw in the towel as far as that topic is concerned? If so, then just who exactly is kicking whose butt?
quote: And you don't even comprehend your own quotes.
fawal Quote: - In fact, some of the calculations in the mathematical papyri are quite complex. Moreover, it would be wrong to suppose that what survives in such student manuals represents the sum total of ancient Egyptian mathematical knowledge.
quote: The Berlin Papyrus
The Berlin Papyrus 6619, commonly known as the Berlin Papyrus is an ancient Egyptian papyrus document from the Middle Kingdom. This papyrus was found at the ancient burial ground of Saqqara in the early 19th century CE.
The papyrus is one of the primary sources of ancient Egyptian mathematical and medical knowledge, including the first known documentation concerning pregnancy test procedures, and is thus part of the medical papyri.
The Berlin Papyrus contains a problem stated as "the area of a square of 100 is equal to that of two smaller squares. The side of one is ½ + ¼ the side of the other." The interest in the question may suggest some knowledge of the Pythagorean theorem, though more likely the data shows a straight forward solution of two second degree variables stated as one unknown, and not two unknowns, as reported by Scott Williams: "100 square cubits is equal to that of two smaller squares, the side of one square is 1/2 + 1/4 of the other. What are the sides of the two unknown squares.
In modern terms we would express this as x2 + y2 = 100 and x = (3/4)y. What are x and y? A modern solution in this form might be ((3/4)y)2 + y2 = 100 implies (1 + 9/16)y2 = (25/16)y2 = 100 implies y2 =(16/25)100 = 64 implies y=8 and x= (3/4)8 = 6.
However, most translators believe the egyptians viewed this problem the way we do the simultaneous equations
x2 + y2 = 100 4x - 3y = 0 What are x and y?
Here was their solution. Assume the square of the first side (y) to be 1 cubit. Then the other side (x) will be 1/2 + 1/4. Then y2 = 1, and using Egyptian multiplication we determine x2 with 1 1/2 + 1/4 1/2* 1/4 + 1/8 1/4* 1/8 + 1/16 1/2 + 1/4 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/8 + 1/16 = 1/2 + 1/16
So x2 = 1/2 + 1/16. Thus, x2 + y2 = 1 + 1/2 + 1/16. Now (1 + 1/2 + 1/16)1/2 = 1 + 1/4 and (100)1/2 = 10 (we will discuss square roots later). Divide 10 by 1 + 1/4 and you get 8 (see the method of problem 24). So we get y=8. The Berlin Papyrus contains damage here so we can at best assume the solution for x was to divide 8 by 1/2 + 1/4 (as in the method of problem 24) to achieve x=6.
OH MY GOD!!! This is just characteristic of the blatant distortions and downright spin tactics that have made Afrocentrists so infamous in contemporary Western Academy! Nowhere in those two quotes does it state (or imply for that matter) that the Egyptians discovered the Pythagorean Theorem! Robins and Shute specifically said that they do not claim that the Egyptians used the possible methods of calculation that they outlined (they did point out the fact that some of the calculations in Egyptian papyri are quite complex, however at present there is NO EVIDENCE to substantiate the claim that they knew it). That article that you copied and pasted out of wikipedia says that it may suggest some knowledge of the Pythagorean Theorem, though more likely the data shows a straight forward solution of two second degree variables stated as one unknown, and not two unknowns. To me Afrocentrists are like young-earth creationists: your beliefs are neither based on facts nor sound scholarship, but rather myths and fantasies - if it could be true, then it must be true.
quote: {The repository of Egyptian knowledge - the Alexandria Library - was destroyed by a fire started by Whites in 48 B.C.}
This was of course AFTER Whitie had transcribed all knowledge contained within, and carried it off to their newly conquered lands of Greece and Italy. Them being originally ignorant and illiterate Nomads, they needed to steal everything that they could get their hands on. This, because initially, they didn't know how to make anything that they had taken from the Black Europeans work!
quote:Clearly you were not being honest with your own sources which is why for instance you no longer cite Robins and Shute in your posts about the "Pythagorean Theorem" anymore but source wiki and a chat room instead. LOL.
Personally I think he did exist but like all legends what is attributed to him is perhaps mostly fable. Now I can understand you want to run to other sources after your "actual professionals" undermine you [serve you right for not reading your sources] but everything means everything.
Huh? First of all, in what way exactly did I stop citing Robins and Shute? In what way exactly were they "undermining" my position that the Egyptians did not discover the Pythagorean Theorem? You do realize that that Robins and Shute article that I linked to deals primarily with whether the irrational numbers Pi and Phi were employed in pyramid design and concludes that they weren't, right (they only touched briefly on Pythagorean Triples)? My main source for the statement that there is no evidence to substantiate the idea that the Egyptians ever discovered the Pythagorean Theorem was Eli Maor's book "The Pythagorean Theorem: A 4000 Year History." The two other links that I provided were "The Myth of Egyptian Pi" and "Irrational Numbers and Pyramids." I provided that first link of the two for the purpose of dispelling the myth that the Greeks "stole" their mathematical knowledge from the Egyptians, and the second one I provided because it dealt tacitly with the issue of the Egyptians and the Pythagorean Theorem. That is why I told you that you were obviously not reading that Robins and Shute article properly. Secondly, I linked to wikipedia in response to your completely false claim that there was no evidence that Pythagoras even existed - it had absolutely nothing to do with the Pythagorean Theorem. If you look carefully, you will see that that "chat room" that I linked to comes off the exact same site as the Robins and Shute article - that particular thread deals with this article which made similar exagerated claims as far as Egyptian mathematics was concerned. And finally just what other sources did I run to exactly?
quote:I never said they said Egyptinas knew, read slowly, I said your sources don't agree that there is no evidence. Not knowing this you used them to back you your initial claim that there was no evidence Egyptians ever knew of it; but clearly Robins and Shute show that there is some, thus they don't agree with the slur, e.g. van der Waerden cited as evidence by your other source Eli.
Yes one could argue for his existence but it's inferred from available evidence, no matter how slim; Egyptian knowledge of the theorem is also inferred from evidence. Whether or not you choose to believe one line of evidence and not the other depends on your agenda, and we all know yours.
Bogle, there is absolutely no evidence that the Egyptians knew of the Pythagorean Theorem - you will see this in my response to The Explorer below. And absolutely none of those sources that I provided contradict me. Furthermore I have no "agenda."
quote: Its the same with the debate over claims of Jewish [and other white peoples] genetic genius and concomitant black inferiority: you choose to believe one side, perhaps misrepresenting your own sources here too, as clearly, you are not in a habit of reading them.
I have not misrepresented any of my sources; the links to all the studies are there, feel free to show me however I may have erred. And secondly I don't have to prove "black inferiority" - you all prove that to the entire world everyday of your pitiful lives. Posted by fawal (Member # 16388) on :
quote:It isn't exactly a mystery that acting human is definitely not your strong suit. You could not have possibly come out of a household with a father figure, or one under the care of a human being. Do you approach every person you immediately get into contact with, with savagery? What are you fed, man; raw human meat?
quote:Of course, the point of the link was to show that, contrary to your belief system, there is actual primary material that bespeaks the alertness of ancient Egyptians of the principle of what would eventually become the so-called Pythagorean. The site, which clearly notifies that it is 'under construction', cites *specific* primary material to this end, and it thereafter falls upon you, to simply look up the said references. Apparently, this 'evident' self-responsibility was not all too evident to you, complaining about it not going as far as spoon feeding you through the actual equations as an excuse to dismiss the evidence; fair enough then, as what follows here now, both sources that are open-minded about ancient Egyptian alertness to the so-called Pythagorean principle and those that are close-minded about it, simply reinforce what that site was linked for
OH PLEASE!!! This has absolutely nothing to do with "spoon feeding," there was absolutely nothing on that site dealing with the Pythagorean Theorem. I saw no primary material or reference sources dealing with the theorem either (and I searched the entire site). If you knew that that site was under construction, then why did you link to it in the first place? Moreover, why did you draw reference to the Moscow Papyrus when that document has nothing to do with the Pythagorean Theorem?
OK, first of all I think you are mistaking a Pythagorean Triple for the actual Theorem itself. The Pythagorean Theorem is the relationship x^2=y^2+z^2. Many modern day egyptologists believe that the Egyptians may have had knowledge of Pythagorean Triples, however currently there is NO EVIDENCE that they ever derived the actual formula relating the hypotenuse of a right-angled triangle to its side opposite and side adjacent. It is known that the Babylonians did, and that the Chinese did, because unlike the Egyptians who wrote on papyrus, they wrote their proofs of the theorem in stone. Many of the quotes that you provided me did not come from actual egyptologists, but rather most of them came from math departments, and many of your links are also unsourced. That book that I cited by Eli Maor was published in late 2007 and he actually draws reference to actual egyptologists. This book therefore represents the most recent consensus regarding whether or not the Egyptians actually knew of the theorem. I would strongly recommend that you read that chapter again(scroll down to page 14 of that pdf file). Also here is the contact information for some actual egyptologists at The Chicago Orientalist Institute who will confirm for you everything that I have just posted:
I would also recommend that you view this site which shows all the known derivations of the Pythagorean Theorem in human history. None of them come from Ancient Egypt.
quote:That link on the pyramids for instance, contains some pointless rambling by a self-admitted clueless character on the subject matter, on how the pyramids might have been built, and nothing relevant on the underlying analytical features of the pyramid's dimensions whatsoever, which is what I alluded to.
I did not link to that particular thread to show any underlying analytical features of the pyramid's dimensions, on the contrary, I linked to that thread to show that pyramid design did not need any complex mathematical knowledge on the part of the Egyptians at all.
Posted by Serpent Wizdom (Member # 7652) on :
wow!! black people are VERY popular. i bet people like "kemp" wake up with us on his mind.
proud to be black!
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
The Explorer wrote: ------------------------------------- It isn't exactly a mystery that acting human is definitely not your strong suit. You could not have possibly come out of a household with a father figure, or one under the care of a human being. Do you approach every person you immediately get into contact with, with savagery? What are you fed, man; raw human meat? -------------------------------------
Folks if this isn't proof that "The Explorer" is a fruitcake I don't know what is.
"The Explorer" has posted some of the most deranged psychotic racist eurocentric things about Africans. Things that you don't even see at white supremacist sites.
Explorer do you want me to post links?
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
The Explorer wrote: -------------------------------- On that note, you'll hopefully be more human-like, if or when you address me in your next reply; --------------------------------
Do you want your anti-African rantings and ravings linked?
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by fawal:
The Explorer, I think that instead of worrying about my domestic upbringing, you should instead worry about that of black american children
You are very slow, kid: it is not so much as being worried, as it is about bluntly stating the obvious.
quote:
This has absolutely nothing to do with "spoon feeding," there was absolutely nothing on that site dealing with the Pythagorean Theorem.
Of course, there is: it is an educational institution link referencing the *primary sources* in which it is implicated. You are simply too dense to grasp the significance of this, which as I've amply demonstrated, is nonetheless reaffirmed by both 'open-minded' and close-minded sources on the net, in academia links.
quote:
If you knew that that site was under construction, then why did you link to it in the first place?
Read above and learn, kid.
quote: Moreover, why did you draw reference to the Moscow Papyrus when that document has nothing to do with the Pythagorean Theorem?
I referenced it for the same reason one of my earlier sources referenced it. Hint: truncated pyramid of say, problem 14. You take it from there.
quote:
OK, first of all I think you are mistaking a Pythagorean Triple for the actual Theorem itself. The Pythagorean Theorem is the relationship x^2=y^2+z^2.
Moron, if the Pythagorean triple doesn't relate to the formula you just jotted down, then what does it relate to?
quote:
Many modern day egyptologists believe that the Egyptians may have had knowledge of Pythagorean Triples, however currently there is NO EVIDENCE that they ever derived the actual formula relating the hypotenuse of a right-angled triangle to its side opposite and side adjacent.
Enlighten us. How do you arrive at the principle of certain versions of Pythagorean triples without having an understanding of *a model*, which makes it consistently certain that you'll get the answer to the undetermined dimension?
quote: Many of the quotes that you provided me did not come from actual egyptologists, but rather most of them came from math departments
Well, where else did you expect mathematical discipline to be dealt with, if not *math* departments, by mathematicians or the mathematical experts [like the teachers with PhD in math]? Your numb-minded rationale is akin to saying an Egyptologist, in general, ought to have more authority in a matter relating to genealogy of the ancient Egyptians over actual geneticists, which is quite moronic, to be frank.
quote:
, and many of your links are also unsourced.
For what?
quote: That book that I cited by Eli Maor was published in late 2007 and he actually draws reference to actual egyptologists. This book therefore represents the most recent consensus regarding whether or not the Egyptians actually knew of the theorem. I would strongly recommend that you read that chapter again(scroll down to page 14 of that pdf file). Also here is the contact information for some actual egyptologists at The Chicago Orientalist Institute who will confirm for you everything that I have just posted:
I would also recommend that you view this site which shows all the known derivations of the Pythagorean Theorem in human history. None of them come from Ancient Egypt.
I strongly recommend you stop recommending matters you have no clue about, and start addressing those you're being educated on.
quote:
I did not link to that particular thread to show any underlying analytical features of the pyramid's dimensions, on the contrary, I linked to that thread to show that pyramid design did not need any complex mathematical knowledge on the part of the Egyptians at all.
Explain how the dimensions of the great pyramids were attained without mathematical knowledge. What do you know about these dimensions, for starters, or are you of the mindset that they don't have any?
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:O CrakaCoonBuckwheat:
The Explorer wrote: -------------------------------- On that note, you'll hopefully be more human-like, if or when you address me in your next reply; --------------------------------
Do you want your anti-African rantings and ravings linked?
Go f*ck yo mama.
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
The Explorer wrote: ---------------------------------- O CrakaCoonBuckwheat ----------------------------------
Folks, notice how he uses racial epithets meant to denigrate Africans.
Why doesn't he do that to Europeans? Or any non-African for that matter?
Explorer, why are you so docile to Euros? Why are you so frightened of them? Why do you hate Africans?
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
^dickhead, I gave you an instruction. Go do it.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by fawal: Huh? First of all, in what way exactly did I stop citing Robins and Shute?
why, by flooding your posts with Wiki and a Chat room to drown out the damaging verdict of your own source, like Eli. Now you are flooding your posts with, oh my god, Lefkowitz, Walker and Howe!?!? Are these "real professionals" too? LOL
Scrambling now to explain why you initially cited Eli et al. doesn't matter as they are already a wealth of evidence regarding your stupidity. One is of the view that everything about Pythagoras is to be taken with a grain of salt. And the other clearly shows the stupidity of the claim that there is absolutely no evidence that the Egyptians knew of the Pythagorean Theorem.
The first shows how pathetic you are for choosing to believe what you read on Wiki (!!!) regarding a particular subject while rejecting evidence about another. You remind me of confused Descartes: doubt everything, expect god (Pythagoras), that cannot be proven with certainty. LOL
quote: Bogle, there is absolutely no evidence that the Egyptians knew of the Pythagorean Theorem
Saying this a thousand times will not help you either. A careful reading of one of your own sources shows that some do not agree with your absolutist position on whether or not the Egyptians knew of the "Pythagorean" Theorem. You do understand I have to put Pythagorean in quotes as I cant be sure of his existence much less attribute certain "discoveries" to him as your own source says everything we read of him is to be taken with a grain of salt. .
quote: And absolutely none of those sources that I provided contradict me.
At this point it is clear you have no idea of the significance of some of your own sources in relation to your absolutist position on whether or not the Egyptians knew of the "Pythagorean" Theorem. You do understand I have to put Pythagorean in quotes as I cant be sure of his existence much less attribute certain "discoveries" to him as your own source says everything we know of him is to be taken with a grain of salt.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:OK, first of all I think you are mistaking a Pythagorean Triple for the actual Theorem itself. The Pythagorean Theorem is the relationship x^2=y^2+z^2.
Moron, if the Pythagorean triple doesn't relate to the formula you just jotted down, then what does it relate to?
LOL
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Many modern day egyptologists believe that the Egyptians may have had knowledge of Pythagorean Triples, however currently there is NO EVIDENCE that they ever derived the actual formula relating the hypotenuse of a right-angled triangle to its side opposite and side adjacent.
Enlighten us. How do you arrive at the principle of certain versions of Pythagorean triples without having an understanding of *a model*, which makes it consistently certain that you'll get the answer to the undetermined dimension?
LOL
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Many of the quotes that you provided me did not come from actual egyptologists, but rather most of them came from math departments
Well, where else did you expect mathematical discipline to be dealt with, if not *math* departments, by mathematicians or the mathematical experts [like the teachers with PhD in math]? Your numb-minded rationale is akin to saying an Egyptologist, in general, ought to have more authority in a matter relating to genealogy of the ancient Egyptians over actual geneticists, which is quite moronic, to be frank.
LOL
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: [QUOTE]That book that I cited by Eli Maor was published in late 2007 and he actually draws reference to actual egyptologists.
Yep, the same guy that advised you to take with a grain of salt everything you read about your Pythagoras.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by fawal: That book that I cited by Eli Maor was published in late 2007 and he actually draws reference to actual egyptologists. This book therefore represents the most recent consensus regarding whether or not the Egyptians actually knew of the theorem.
LOL what a clown! Go look at his footnotes again, nothing is after the 1970s. He is merely regurgitating old information. And why doesn't your least PDF citation of Eli not include the chapter where he says "But who was this revered person [Pythagoras]? Truth is, we don't know."?
^ Maybe "real professionals" should start consulting Wikipedia on Pythagoras' life and work, yes? LOL
Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
^ Bump. I just noticed that as well. You can only expect so much from him.
Fawal
quote:Those people are not my "internet buddies." They are actual egyptologists and anthropologists who have actually practiced their professions for years, and are far more well versed on the issue than all of the "experts" on this forum combined.
This guy is the real James Bond. He seems to have access to information not accessible in the academia. I mean, the position we hold are presented and cited in rather mainstream journals.
On the other hand, can your "experts" field an actual argument on this issue? How about you send the questions that were addressed to that Alcoholic poster? Close-minded prick, your understanding amounts to nothing.
Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
quote:Originally posted by fawal:
quote:We perform better than Asians in some areas. Africans are more educated than Asians.
1. Chinese (+6 grades); 2. Black African (+5 grades), 3. Indian (+4.5 grades); 4. Bangladeshi (+4 grades); 5. Pakistani (+3 grades); 6. Caribbean (+2.5 grades); 7. Female (+2 grades); 8. White British Male (0)
That Africa Resource article shows that African Immigrants are more educated(as in have more degrees) than Asians yes, however it does not prove that Africans are more intelligent(as measured through IQ or "g") than Asians. As far as the GCSE results, I have already beaten that to death: the immigrant groups each represent a distinct cognitive elite. The results that you posted above shows THE AVERAGE for each group. The United Kingdom is a very homogeneous country; there are almost no minorities outside of the industrial centers of London, Manchester and Leeds. Comparing the large white population(92%) against the much smaller immigrant populations and trying to extrapolate and say that this proves that blacks are more intelligent than whites is statistically inaccurate.
Do you know why your arguments would fall? Well, it'd fall realizing that higher income African-American (who are obviously educated) tend to under perform vs. white counterparts in all classes in SAT testing.
That suggests that the "cognitive" elite (such nonsense) belonging to the African-American community see huge declines. If "intelligence" were to be inherited, in other words, it isn't inherited.
Why are their cognitively elite parents able to perform in demanding environments, but not their parents? You really need to start reading modern science onto this matter. It'd be interesting to see you quote a list of peer review sources that suggest that IQ is due to biology, rather than say, environment. Please don't post open source nonsense: get your academic friends to provide the data.
Also, when were Meghrebians so academically stunning in the West? I certainly remember the great news I remember hearing from my former Dutch and German roommates. No sympathy at all. Just a pack of child producing mutts.
Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
One more thing, does these studies actually assess IQ with income or wealth? Income is not a reliable indicator of mobility, wealth is. If we were to incorporate the fact that African-Americas have much lower median net worth than European Americans, the IQ (which is not invalid) disparity, would not be explainable.
The fact that this fool actually banks on the theory of races is amusing as well. You would expect evidence to that claim, but I've checked continuously, the quality of sources don't seem respectable at all.
quote:1)In what ways exactly are African Americans less modern than White and Asian Americans?
Much lower home ownership levels, at all income classes, suggesting lower financial stability. This is described in Charles Lewis Neir III - The Shadow of Credit.
quote:2)Why it is that Howard University, a predominantly black school, has a graduation rate of 54% when the University of Virginia, a predominantly white school, has one of 92%?
Have you considered socio-economic status? I mean, why do virtually all Black students who attend Harvard graduate? The rate is not very different from white counterparts either.
Those children can be considered elite at the cognitive level. However, why is there such a strong regression amongst children of the cognitive Black elites. In other words, why isn't intelligence passed onto children belonging to cognitively elite African families (as measured by income)?
This development suggests that high cognitively parents don't necessarily produce similar children. In fact, within the Black community, we're seeing lower SAT scores even at the highest SES. If intelligence was inherited, we'd expect that group to cluster with their parents rather than regress with the norm.
quote:3)Why is it that black americans consistently score the lowest on standardized test scores such as the SAT, GRE, MCAT and the LSAT?
Why do I get the idea that correlation is being presented as causality? Provide papers in a reputable genetics journal suggesting that Black-specific traits are involved in this disparity. Hell, before you do that, race must proven.
quote:4)At the school that I attend I am enrolled in course 20 (biological engineering), and out of 137 juniors only six are black; Why is this?
Environment. White kids are developed in environments that are more likely to produce science-geared students.
quote:5)In my previous post I drew reference to "Head Start," why is it that this program proved more effective in helping poor whites as opposed to poor blacks?
Race neutral programs tend to avoid the issue of racism. That is, racially biased teachers or children who were not developed to resist the more overt components on racism.
There are plenty studies in education that deals with the relationship between white educators and the black students. I'll post it in a bit as I have used it before.
The problem is, that program was bound to fail since the beginning. I don't know why even many African-Americans seem to perceive that they as people are integrated in that society. Having lived, I don't see that at all, and would argue that segregation may be the only option.
Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
What is the forum's position on Ancient Egypt and race? I don't see anything in the archives on this matter Instead. Direct us to the posts within those threads.
Interestingly, I see publications against Afrocentrism regarding the claim that Greeks "stole" knowledge from the Egyptians. Do the same existing suggesting that Ancient Egyptians were not tropically adapted indigenous Africans? It would be interesting to see that.
Posted by TruthAndRights (Member # 17346) on :
quote: There is absolutely no evidence to support the notion that the Ancient Egyptians ever discovered the Pythagorean Theorem
Greetings.
Soooo....the fact that Pythagoras spent no less than 21 years studying/learning in Kmt (Egypt).... and that Aristotle himself said that 'Egypt was the cradle of mathematics"..... and that Eudoxus, who happened to be Aristotle's teacher and a great mathematician of his time, also studied/learned in Kmt before teaching in Greece..... and that Euclid also studied/learned mathematics in Kmt before applying it elsewhere....
just flies over this Fawal person's head
Oh, on another note, Diodorus said that the concept of the fundamental opposites of Nature is Egyptian.... and Isocrates attributes the discovery of the art of medicine and philosophy to the Egyptian priests.... and Thales admitted that the source of his own wisdom was the Egyptians....
By the way, maybe I was reading too fast and missed it, but has anyone mentioned the Ishango Bone...
I highly recommend BLACKS IN SCIENCE ANCIENT AND MODERN Edited by Ivan Van Sertima to anyone who hasn't read it.
htp
Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
I've noticed something. The studies suggesting an AFRICAN-AMERICAN and White divergence tends to place Dominicans, Jamaicans, et al as groups who are converging towards white levels. Those Hispanics that perform better than Mexicans and Puerto Ricans are probably as dark, if not darker, than typical African-Americans
As you can see, the methodology even used to access race is downright insane. It is pretty obvious that Dominicans, Jamaicans, Haitians, Trinidadians, et al are anything, but "elite" in their home nations. These groups are no different from Mexicans in occupational status (working as nurses, etc). These Black groups have been converging, in fact, exceeding "whites" in many cities such as Queens, NY.
I would introduce Maghrebians from Europe, who are well regards as scums. That is even suggested by fellow Turks, who I interact with quite extensively. However, I understand that environmental forces play a role in this strong disparity in those nations. That is, nations, that are highly socialized and where university is virtually free.
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only two pints of that stellar Stella mate.
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] as alot of Jews argue this way too. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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) . Curricula that celebrated the cultures of racial-ethnic minorities would make minority students feel more welcome, more respected, and more engaged in their studies. At the college level, the effort to promote full and effective academic engagement has included providing ethnic housing and cultural centers, conducting separate orientation and awards ceremonies, adding college majors that focus on ethnicity, and instituting speech codes that forbid students and faculty from expressing views that individuals from racial-ethnic minorities might find offensive. Such efforts to compensate for presumably missing emotional as well as material resources has changed education in many ways, but it has done little to narrow the racial IQ gaps. Furthermore, John Ogbu also did a final book shortly before his death entitled "Black American Students in an Affluent Suburb: A Study of Academic Disengagement" in which he chronicles the poor academic performance of african american students at an upscale Cleveland magnet school. At this school the average african american gpa was 1.9 compared to 3.45 for their white classmates. At the end of his research Ogbu concluded that the students poor academic performance wasn't due to socioeconomics, school funding, or racism, but instead attributed it to their fear of being accused of "acting white"(obviously in denial of over 100 years of psychometric research 
