cassiterides made a comment about how rare it is to see a black women with her natural hair . He also posted a link to Arthur kemps march of the titans article.
Do you think barack obama would have been elected with an afro , braids or dreadlocks?
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
LOL at the first photo.
The box says ''African pride''?
How can Blacks have pride when they are artifically straightening their hair so they can look like whites? Its self-hate not pride.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
At least he is catching on ie "Blacks" He! He! He! Check Mate! Now it’s time to move on.
What's this a Freudian slip? Next you would be saying the AEians are Black Africans. ie Blacks born in Africa.
You know what. . .I think you are a closet Afro-centric.
quote:Originally posted by XXXX: LOL at the first photo.
The box says ''African pride''?
How can Blacks have pride when they are artifically straightening their hair so they can look like whites? Its self-hate not pride.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
What a stupid thread.
How is Afro Hair only confined to black people and how are blacks the only people to straighten their hair.
Caucasians with Red Hair have the thickest hair of all whites, here is what many of their hair looks like in its natural state..
So if Hair=adaption or in Cas-shitty's case race why are the Epitomy of a cold adapted Human, a Red Head, exibiting a hair type found among Tropical Humans.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Africans have different hair types. The idea that AA who perm their hair want to look white is unfounded. How do you know these women don't want to look Asian or Native Americans, as these are the people world famous for long Silky hair that is the envy of even white women.
And LOL, at people who think blacks are the only ones buying Perms, Weaves and extensions. White Women are notorious for butying it. and LAstly majoirity of whitehair is not even "Straight" but Stingy and thin and frizzled in its natural state..
You can see the real state or texture of White Hair when European males grow their hair long, it looks like horrible.
^^^^^ Look at this stringy tangled thin excuse for hair. Looks like a mangy dog.
Was it not the Chinese who called Europeans "Dog People" when they first arrived in China.
This is the Hair that women including 99% of White Women want to Emulate..
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: How is Afro Hair only confined to black people and how are blacks the only people to straighten their hair.
*The racial origins and classification of the Pygmies is still disputed.
These are the only wooly haired races.
Caucasoids and Mongoloids are not wooly-haired.
quote:Caucasians with Red Hair have the thickest hair of all whites, here is what many of their hair looks like in its natural state.
One of those has artifical hair texture. However the others are curly haired not wooly.
See diagram again -
Curly hair is not wooly. This is something the Afronuts never can accept.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: [QUOTE]
Blah Blah
These are the only wooly haired races.
Caucasoids and Mongoloids are not wooly-haired.
quote:
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
African have always had pride in long hair..
These Hairstyles are far more interesting and beautiful than some long stingy haired mangy European style..
Posted by element (Member # 19569) on :
@Jari
I dont know where you from but it's rare to see a black women with natural hair in the western world. Its alarmingly disproportionate in the uk.
Curly hair is not unique but it's only black children who are being targeted with harmful kiddie relaxer products. Their is no product researched ,marketed at non white children..
My family is Jamaican & theirs a racial component & it's projected & passed from mother to daughter. Black men dont have hair issues..
Ive also noticed many african families starting to wig & weave really young children.
Asian, native americans have never had the same profile,promotion or elevation as a standard of beauty throught history in the western world.
It's undeniable that self hate is still prevalant.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Here is the problem. Majority of Black Women whom I know and interact with don't want to look like white women. Most black women have variations of style only seen on black women..
When black women grow their hair long, or straighten it or get extensions etc, it has nothing to do with being white.
Are there black women who want to be White, of course, but these people are few and far between. Majority of Blacks DO NOT...want to be a white person. If anything blacks want to be "Mixed" or Lightskinned with black features. If anything African Americans have a facination with the Mixed look.
And about this natural look, black people do not have a set look or hairstyle. Some of Us are not even from West or Central Africa but from East Africa and Madagascar, some of Our ancestors had straight and wavy hair.
And I don't see wanting to looked Mixed as Self Hate. Is there "Self HAte" Yes, but its not what Cash-itty is trying to make it. There are very few black people who desire the Stingy Dog hair that most whites including Ca-shitty has. and BTW My Dad is a Mulatto, Mulatto blacks are and have been a vital part of the Black Community. Some Mulattos want to be "Blacker" and are sometimes the most Anti-White, Pro Black members of the community. I personally can't stand most Mulatto men, but the women are a different story.
I can only speak for my community, maybe in Jamaica yall are running around wanting stringy dog-piss hair instead of the beautiful Afro hair the Most high gave you.
Damn, as a teen I always wanted a Afro, Dreads, and Braids... I would never want some thin dog-piss hair.
Posted by Horus G (Member # 15917) on :
The fact is most black women have been conditioned to prefer hairstyles that don't reflect their hair type.
I struggle to see how this basically means black women want to be white or don't love themselves.
Posted by TruthAndRights (Member # 17346) on :
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
Yada yada.
I find it funny that in order to speak on the issue and help buttress the claim of the preponderance of this sentiment, they feel the need to not only show a picture of a woman who relaxed her hair, but then show a guy with a low hair cut next to versions of them with unkempt unruly (at least with the woman) hair grown out shortly . While were I choosing pictures to illustrate that point I agree that the popularity of those two styles are the way I'd go in terms of illustrative pics, however I also think if this is both that profound and pervasive, then why would that be necessary? In a way, at least; another obvious way of looking at it would yield the rhetort that it is perhaps because it is so common that people otherwise would not notice or think of it, or perhaps to illustrate this to outsiders, or perhaps that not enough people are aware of it.
Anywho, one has to ask imo at which point - which at this point in time depending on where you go you will find natural grown hair more common but typically these people either have money i.e. are higher class or don't i.e. are lower and don't really care as much as higher lower class and low to middle middle class people do - do these hairstyles, i.e., various perms, the fade, & lowcut, become simply habitual / traditional?
At the same time I have noticed it (the hair thing, the natural hair reluctance), and plenty of other blacks have noticed it and even become annoyed by it (possibly they barely thought of changing up and saw the resistance they were previously naive to and interpreted as extreme). And it's not just a certain type, a.k.a. the high class, of black person that notices it, but one from any class or place.
And so, I've gone places, just out (and about) and encountered individuals at least half or in the majority, with grown out natural hair, in a formal proffessional (white collar workplace) setting (so, not at all low-class), and have also travelled, such as to big cities such as New York (you even see it in the commercials nowdays, not so uncommon whatsoever) and seen plenty of people walking around with their hair in all kinds of styles, oblivious to gay queefs for threads (like this), chipper, just going on about their business happy as can be (apparently, at least for that moment).
So I ask again, at what point is it just habit? And why is it habit -- it is possible that it is one that may not necessarily fade away, as others have; prior eras saw fros, braids, and shaved heads fade in and out of style, and for some of those, back in (while all of those still exist in the spare individual). It's possibly for a reason, such as that fros are harder to tame, and like why spend more time on your hair than on other things, if there's an area with which you can be relatively lazy, and plenty of females say they like short hair, then, why the funkadelics not? I do remember at a younger age in earliest elementry school and pretty much throughout it (mostly white, we'd moved from somewhere but it was preschool and also I think had mostly whites) being asked "why is your hair bald" (fades equated to bald back then for them) at a very young age (small child), and subsequently not preferring to get it cut real low, but as I've grown I've overheard comments of growner and grown WHITE women saying they liked the faded haircuts on black dudes and actually in general like guys' short haircuts, although growing up a lot were oblivious to this practice, which is understandable when you consider the popularity of the fade, combined with how short it is juxtaposed with the average volume / size of the white male head's hair.
Oh yeah, and my very first thought: another possible reason why this is so would be obvious. Considering black people's recent status and position compared to whites, would one really expect the opposite? I mean how retarded is that question (they ask on the [linked] site), when you really apply a single brain-cell and a half to think of it?
Here are random videos, one of a Rapper's view on the subject, another just a random video of someone with that hair.
By the way, sortof back in the context of the status of blacks (who at one time couldn't have hair like that period and do certain things) and whites thing I just mentioned two lines ago: whites weren't even allowed (without harrassment, physical and otherwise) to wear their wild hair-dos in places like schools and stuff until a couple decades ago when the 'wild' rockers wildly up and did it, to put the question in further perspective.
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Damn, as a teen I always wanted a Afro, Dreads, and Braids... I would never want some thin dog-piss hair.
lol, I permed my head twice, the results were like (in front of the mirror) wtf, !, it was funny, ... but then I liked it .. but did not want to keep it.
I'm no CattWiliams I guess.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
The truth is that black women no longer like their own natural hair. It isn't a fad. It is something that has been passed down as a tradition from generation to generation. Black women teach their children to scald themselves straightening their hair at a young age. This has been going on for quite a while. However, even as late as the 80s, most girls and women looked down on other black women who wore extensions in their hair. It was a subject of scorn and ridicule. But all of that changed within the last 20 years or so to the point where now you have to count the number of women who are not wearing fake hair. It doesn't make absolutely any sense for 20 year olds to be wearing fake hair, even in afro styles. But that is common in America today.
And now it is spreading all over. Even women in Africa are doing it.
Yes, it has to do with standards of white beauty. If all the models, actresses and personalities on TV were black with Afros and most of the people in the beauty ADS and in the fashion shows, this wouldn't be an issue. But because the standard of beauty in the world has been defined around a European paradigm, straight blonde hair has become a standard of beauty.
This European standard of beauty was forced on African Americans because of the history in America where nappy hair was degraded and derided by the larger white society. During slavery, ironically, nobody really cared what the hair looked like. But once slavery ended and blacks began trying to integrate and assimilate, this really took effect. The conditioning comes from the fact that when black women went to get jobs they wanted to look "non threatening" and appealing to white men. And of course curly Afro hair was not what most white men wanted to see. Hence, the trend towards straightening the hair. Not only in jobs but in society in general, Afro textured hair was looked down upon initially by the larger white society and then by black society trying to "fit in" with white standards of beauty.
As a result of this being passed down from generation to generation, now people just do it automatically as if it is normal for blacks to straighten their hair. And so some people think that it isn't a "white thing" but in reality it is. The same goes for Africa, where 50 years ago you hardly saw straightened hair as opposed to some sort of braided hair, Afro or some other African hairstyle. But now, they are imitating the hairstyles of the Afro-Americans due to the influence of Afro-American culture in the media. The same thing is going on in the black communities of Europe as well.
The point is that it has gotten to the point where black women are literally destroying their hair in order to follow non natural beauty trends. No other people on earth go as far to adopt unnatural standards of beauty.
You can go to youtube and find hundreds of videos of women who have had their hair damaged due to trying to wear extensions and weaves. And not only on you tube but all over the net. But black women still continue to destroy their hair.
Exactly, it's just mind control Posted by Men Kheper Ra (Member # 4547) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: LOL at the first photo.
The box says ''African pride''?
How can Blacks have pride when they are artifically straightening their hair so they can look like whites? Its self-hate not pride.
I can't stand this dude but he's right when it comes to the straightening of the hair - there is no reason why we should be straightening out hair for nothing!!! Perms kill our hair; period!!!
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
quote:Originally posted by element:
It's undeniable that self hate is still prevalant. [/QB]
Because wooly hair is hideous. Black children even choose white dolls with long straight hair over their own race dolls.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
quote:Originally posted by Horus G: Exactly, it's just mind control
Nope it isn't because in parts of Africa where no whites are, blacks are artifically straightening their hair. Hair straighteners sell as much in Africa than in Europe or America.
People just need to accept Negroid phenotypic traits are ugly. This has nothing to do with racism. All races are different in beauty.
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
Ancient Egyptians imported hair from Asiatics too, as well as often (both sexes) shaved their heads and wore wigs, though not all (such as soldiery and certain other types).
This:
was more rare an exception, and even in these cases women had wigs (afro wigs, or braided hair wigs made from "african hair").
Doug: was it because Indiana Jones cracked the wip on them too? Or what?
What happened?
Posted by Horus G (Member # 15917) on :
Whatbox, stop stop, stop... honestly it's not neccessary Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: Nope it isn't because in parts of Africa where no whites are, blacks are artifically straightening their hair. Hair straighteners sell as much in Africa than in Europe or America.
People just need to accept Negroid phenotypic traits are ugly.
Mmm, I just doubt it. That last part.
It could very well be though that straighter hair is seen as feminine.
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: Ancient Egyptians imported hair from Asiatics too, as well as often (both sexes) shaved their heads and wore wigs, though not all (such as soldiery and certain other types).
This:
was more rare an exception, and even in these cases women had wigs (afro wigs, or braided hair wigs made from "african hair").
Doug: was it because Indiana Jones cracked the wip on them too? Or what?
What happened?
Wearing a wig is not the same as burning your hair with hot combs and chemicals or applying weaves and extensions that destroy the hair. And the wigs you see were most often for the elites and not necessarily for the everyday folks. And the wigs were in Afro Styles that could also be done with natural hair.
The fact is that Africans invented hair care, body adornment and cosmetics. That does not change the fact that in the world today the beauty industry is dominated by a European beauty ideal that causes many women to do unnatural things to meet that ideal. Ancient Egypt is not America and what happened in America over the last 200 years was in no shape or form connected with the culture of ancient Egypt.
Black women all over the world have all sorts of hair, from straight to curly and so forth. They don't need to imitate whites to be beautiful. Heck, the most popular weaves and hair extensions often come from Indian women..... who are often black themselves.
I take my vaulable time and post significant information on Stockholm Syndrome and it's more advanced form Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome (PTSS), and you haven't absorbed a word.
If guess you figure that PTSS is only relative to Africans who have experienced slavery, but it's not. Albinos have been even more scarred by PTSS symptoms, since they have been emerged in slavery for a much longer interval than blacks.
Short term expose to captivity leaves it's victims in a state of emulating their captors, explaining why Albinos tan excessively, and blacks (most women) lighten their skin and straighten their hair. Symptoms effect women at a greater degree because they really are, psychologically, the weaker sex. Albinos researchers and planners understand the above, which explains why they hire black women and not black men, and why the majority of their corporate product marketing focuses on black females versus males.
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox:
And the wigs were in Afro Styles that could also be done with natural hair.
They weren't wearing "non African" or European looking wigs.
True dat, I've seen them before (a plethora), and it makes me to wonder if those Asiatic servents were at all wearing wigs. I doubt they were.
Actually though, I thought I mentioned in my own very post that they wore wigs made of Africoid hair. It's just that I also mentioned that they shaved their heads, wore these wigs, and then also traded with / imported hair from the Asiatics.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox:
And the wigs were in Afro Styles that could also be done with natural hair.
They weren't wearing "non African" or European looking wigs.
True dat, I've seen them before (a plethora), and it makes me to wonder if those Asiatic servents were at all wearing wigs. I doubt they were.
Actually though, I thought I mentioned in my own very post that they wore wigs made of Africoid hair. It's just that I also mentioned that they shaved their heads, wore these wigs, and then also traded with / imported hair from the Asiatics.
You said
quote: Doug: was it because Indiana Jones cracked the wip on them too? Or what?
What happened?
Implying that somehow the hair practices of the ancient Egyptians was equivalent to that of black Americans.
Posted by element (Member # 19569) on :
I think the usa has had a major influence on promoting the unnatural through its musical superstars..They can also play out roles in their videos.
we have Beyonce, Rhianna ,Tina turner, whitney houston, chaka khan, Mary j blige ,Lauren hill, Diana ross,Janet jackson.
I couldn't find many natural images of the above but this is made me smile.
Aretha franklin.14th century strasbourg moor?
. .
Dark skinned women are also neglected for lighter skin in hip hop videos
Racial psychology: study notes for cassiterides black history month.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Look I am not sure about the hair relaxer thing after all that's a mainly female thing but all women like to fuk with their hair some braid it,bald it color it,weave it,perm it,curl it, wig it,locs it..but only the black woman who got scolded for it,why is that??
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: You said
quote: Doug: was it because Indiana Jones cracked the wip on them too? Or what?
What happened?
Implying that somehow the hair practices of the ancient Egyptians was equivalent to that of black Americans.
No, it's more the reverse, that our practices are like theirs.
I was just pointing out that I'm on the side that doesn't see hair style as definitive proof of how big your head / ego is blown up, nor do I see that as that important an issue to maintain.
To each his own, though.
Posted by Horus G (Member # 15917) on :
Whatbox...stop...leave this sort of thing for real life
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
Tanning Salon and Melanoma
Melanoma
Posted by Horus G (Member # 15917) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: Ancient Egyptians imported hair from Asiatics too, as well as often (both sexes) shaved their heads and wore wigs, though not all (such as soldiery and certain other types).
This:
was more rare an exception, and even in these cases women had wigs (afro wigs, or braided hair wigs made from "african hair").
Doug: was it because Indiana Jones cracked the wip on them too? Or what?
What happened?
Wearing a wig is not the same as burning your hair with hot combs and chemicals or applying weaves and extensions that destroy the hair. And the wigs you see were most often for the elites and not necessarily for the everyday folks. And the wigs were in Afro Styles that could also be done with natural hair.
The fact is that Africans invented hair care, body adornment and cosmetics. That does not change the fact that in the world today the beauty industry is dominated by a European beauty ideal that causes many women to do unnatural things to meet that ideal. Ancient Egypt is not America and what happened in America over the last 200 years was in no shape or form connected with the culture of ancient Egypt.
Black women all over the world have all sorts of hair, from straight to curly and so forth. They don't need to imitate whites to be beautiful. Heck, the most popular weaves and hair extensions often come from Indian women..... who are often black themselves.
How can Blacks have pride when they are artifically straightening their hair so they can look like whites? Its self-hate not pride.
Ancient African females like the one featured here beat their modern counterparts to it, in sporting the long straight hair look:
This was long before these Africans even knew Europeans existed.
Another way to lengthen the hair, was to braid hair into thin long locks...again, long before these Africans knew anything such as Europeans existed:
So, when "Black" females straighten their own natural hair, they are merely following a long tradition of treating hair. It is no more anomalous than European females treating their hair and stylizing it, including braiding it.
It's been a ball to see apologies or excuses being made for how "Black" females treat their hair. Posted by TruthAndRights (Member # 17346) on :
I put this in another thread by accident earlier; I just real-eyesed this.... however, I won't ask unu to forgive the duplicity:
When was the last time you felt the warm scalp of a woman Run your fingers through her hair Twisted her natural locks through your fingers Or walked your fingers through the rows of braids Just like walking through fields of corn
When did you see the true beauty of your African Woman? Or saw a flawless dark skin? Or kissed her natural plump lips?
From the days of slavery black women were told “You gotta have hair like “Massa” , Don't want no nappy haired black as sin gal in the house” The beautiful black women were kept in the cotton fields While those that had lighter skin, The products of the slave masters were kept as house slaves If your hair was long and straight, without a natural crinkle it was your bonus, a passport to heaven, a ticket to the illusion of freedom
Now, I hardly see an original black woman They all seem to have become Chinese, Indian and European Flicking about hair that is not their own That may be from a horse, a yak or plastic factory Afraid to show their natural beauty Afraid because their men have been conditioned to think that a perfect woman has straight hair and fair skin Afraid because their sisters would laugh and tease them for their tight curls
Wake up! Have you ever really looked at the beauty of a black woman, all natural and dark? They way her teeth and eyes sparkle in contrast to her skin The way her hair feels soft like the ends of an ear of corn Or woolly like that of a new born lamb Twisting and curling itself through your fingers True feelings exploding through the shaft of natural hair
Men! Treat a natural woman with respect Women! rise up for the natural woman who dared For her inner strength and inner pride have made her able to go against the norm To show her true self Just the way God made her----------------- Perfect A beautiful black woman
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: Tanning Salon and Melanoma
Melanoma
Tanning, the idealization of black beauty!
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:
How can Blacks have pride when they are artifically straightening their hair so they can look like whites? Its self-hate not pride.
Ancient African females like the one featured here beat their modern counterparts to it, in sporting the long straight hair look:
This was long before these Africans even knew Europeans existed.
Another way to lengthen the hair, was to braid hair into thin long locks...again, long before these Africans knew anything such as Europeans existed:
So, when "Black" females straighten their own natural hair, they are merely following a long tradition of treating hair. It is no more anomalous than European females treating their hair and stylizing it, including braiding it.
It's been a ball to see apologies or excuses being made for how "Black" females treat their hair.
Africans brought to America were not wearing their hair like this 300 years ago. African Americans more often than not wore their hair in natural styles or braided for most of their history. And the origin of hair decoration predates even Egypt in the interior of Africa. Of course Africans invented hair decoration and treatment. That isn't the point.
The history of hair straightening in America has nothing to do with Egypt or Africa in general. Hot hair combs are specifically an African American development and along with that came the concept of chemical relaxers, which again are a strictly African American development. Both of these were created specifically to allow black women to have the straight hair that was seen as preferred and desired by the larger society: white society. The issue is that these processes have destructive and painful side effects with the weaves that are currently in style being the most destructive. Yes, hair treatments and even hair weaving originated in Africa, but those treatments were more than likely not destructive like these current practices. And it makes no sense to deny the documented history of the history of hair preference and the domination of European beauty standards on the African American hair care industry.
The ancient Egyptians wore wigs and weaves. But they were not second/third class citizens in a foreign land subjected to abuse and mistreatment by a larger society of non black people with different standards of beauty that were against natural African beauty.
quote: Origins
*
3,400 B.C. is roughly the first documentation or proof of hair weaves. The Egyptians weren't fans of any body hair, minus their heads. They wore extravagant wigs, sewn-on hairpieces and braids.
Materials
*
The first hair-weaves were bought or traded human hair mixed with dyed sheep's wool. The Egyptians used resin, braids and beeswax to attach the extensions.
Misconceptions
*
Typically, when you think of hair weaves and decorative wigs, you picture women having the most elaborate hair pieces. However, in Egyptian times, men's hair weaves outshone the ladies (see Resources).
Function
*
The reason that wigs and hair extensions were so popular in ancient Egypt was because of the diversity. They wore bright blue, red and gold wigs, along with the traditional black. Hair lice also helped it become popular. Many Egyptians kept their hair cropped and bodies shaved to prevent any insect infestation.
Thank you, the first intelligent post Ive seen so far, thank you Explorer.
Noted these same people bitching about AA wanting to look "white" by relaxing their hair will claim straight hair is an African Trait when the topic turns to Horn of Africans and Black Berbers and Egyptian Mummies..
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:
How can Blacks have pride when they are artifically straightening their hair so they can look like whites? Its self-hate not pride.
Ancient African females like the one featured here beat their modern counterparts to it, in sporting the long straight hair look:
This was long before these Africans even knew Europeans existed.
Another way to lengthen the hair, was to braid hair into thin long locks...again, long before these Africans knew anything such as Europeans existed:
So, when "Black" females straighten their own natural hair, they are merely following a long tradition of treating hair. It is no more anomalous than European females treating their hair and stylizing it, including braiding it.
It's been a ball to see apologies or excuses being made for how "Black" females treat their hair.
Posted by element (Member # 19569) on :
"Do not remove the kinks from your hair--remove them from your brain" .... Marcus Mosiah Garvey 1887-1940
Part two of the 20 minute complexion obsession documentary has a white doll black doll test.. check the hairstyle of the black doll at 5.07..
Please show me any group of blacks anywhere on the planet outside those with naturally straight hair who ever treated their hair to make it look like this:
quote: Many black women all over the world sew, braid and glue fake hair to their real hair. Many hide their textured curls by putting chemicals and heat mechanisms to enable hair to stay down. Recently, a friend of mine began to feel ashamed of her dependence on synthetic hair. She thought that she was subconsciously trying to make herself look more European, and that this was a bad thing. As I tried to convince her to ignore her worries, I showed her pictures of Fulani women who have using foreign objects in their hair to adorn themselves for centuries. This was proof that just because a black woman changes her hair texture, color or style, this does not necessarily mean that she is trying mimicking European hair.
And my only comment is that the processes used by the ancient Egyptians(shaved heads/wigs), Africans (braiding, natural treatments) and others is that they weren't destroying their hair by using chemicals and burning to achieve their hairstyles. They used natural processes to achieve those looks. That is totally the opposite of the destructive methods African Americans have been using since the times of C. J. Walker and maybe even before. There is no proof that Fulani women's hair is being destroyed by these hairstyles and many Fulani have straighter hair to begin with.
^^^^ The People who have their hair like that are a god damn minority in the AA community.
A google search of AA hairstyles shows what most AA hairstyles look like..MAJORITY A short or Curly hairstyles that embrace the natural hair of AA women.
So this makes me wonder if any of you trying to bash AA's as being self haters even live round AA people.
and Please spare me, All of Africa was colonized except Ethiopia and Liberia, so how do you know this facination with "White" hair and features did not come from that. North Africans, Somalis and Ethiopians etc are notoriously racist against so called "Bantus", something that was not present before European and Arab/Persian influence, Are we to blame AA for this behavior as well. ...??
Are we to blame AA for the Tutsi/Hutu genocide?? What about in India, are we to blame that on AA as well.
Majority of AA women running around with their hair like that are either mixed or creole.
get real..
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Where are all these Black AA women trying to look white???
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^^ The People who have their hair like that are a god damn minority in the AA community.
A google search of AA hairstyles shows what most AA hairstyles look like..MAJORITY A short or Curly hairstyles that embrace the natural hair of AA women.
So this makes me wonder if any of you trying to bash AA's as being self haters even live round AA people.
and Please spare me, All of Africa was colonized except Ethiopia and Liberia, so how do you know this facination with "White" hair and features did not come from that. North Africans, Somalis and Ethiopians etc are notoriously racist against so called "Bantus", something that was not present before European and Arab/Persian influence, Are we to blame AA for this behavior as well. ...??
Are we to blame AA for the Tutsi/Hutu genocide?? What about in India, are we to blame that on AA as well.
Majority of AA women running around with their hair like that are either mixed or creole.
get real..
Which of the 3 are wearing their own hair in a natural style?
Like I said earlier, the use of weaves and extensions in AA society has risen in the last 20 years and is now very prevalent, on top of the perming and relaxing that was always common.
My point is that the processes used to create the styles are destructive to the woman's head.
Please show me anywhere on the planet or in Ancient Egypt where they used destructive means to achieve such hair styles. Shaving the head is not necessarily destructive. Weaving other peoples hair or fake hair is also not necessarily destructive either. However, the processes used for African American hair are destructive and this is because of the history of the American hair care industry.
Africans didn't have chemical relaxers and perms even 500 years ago. And African hair as well as black peoples hair all over the world vary in texture, so they style it all kinds of ways. That fact doesn't make the African American methods and styles any less destructive on their hair.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Which of the 3 are wearing their own hair in a natural style?
WTF, All of those styles look nothing like a Hair Style worn by White Women or non black women, so what is your point. Africans have always changed their hair styles that look nothing like their natural state..yet retain an obvious African style..
Like I said earlier, the use of weaves and extensions in AA society has risen in the last 20 years and is now very prevalent, on top of the perming and relaxing that was always common
All women of all races use weaves and extensions and majority of AA that use such get styles that embrace black hair. Majority The ones who get their hair straight do not do so to emulate white women but Mixed black women. As I said White Women do not have straight hair but Thin, stingy hair, Asain women are the ones who have "Silky" straight hair. White Women perm and staighten their hair t emulate Asians.
Please show me anywhere on the planet or in Ancient Egypt where they used destructive means to achieve such hair styles.
Again majority of AA are not perming their hair enmasse for the very reason that it damages black hair. Majority of AA get braids or wear weaves, not Perms.
Shaving the head is not necessarily destructive. Weaving other peoples hair or fake hair is also not necessarily destructive either. However, the processes used for African American hair are destructive and this is because of the history of the American hair care industry.
Read above, majority of AA wear extensions, Weaves or Braids not Perms, and Im not a woman so I can't comment on why the ones who perm their hair do so. Even then Majotiry of AA who get Perms get a style that is worn by Black Women only, not to emulate white women.
Africans didn't have chemical relaxers and perms even 500 years ago. And African hair as well as black peoples hair all over the world vary in texture, so they style it all kinds of ways. That fact doesn't make the African American methods and styles any less destructive on their hair.
As I said Africans were colonized and subjugated as well. Your blabbering that AA introduced Perming and Skin Lightening to Africans is unfounded. Step into Somalia, North Africa and even some SSA nations and you will find Blacks hating on other Blacks who appear more Bantu. No where in our History have AA genocided other AA who appear more Bantu, that was an African thing.
You Africans have your own self hate issiues that have nothing to do with AA's.
You only bash AA because we are an easy target.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Which of the 3 are wearing their own hair in a natural style?
WTF, All of those styles look nothing like a Hair Style worn by White Women or non black women, so what is your point. Africans have always changed their hair styles that look nothing like their natural state..yet retain an obvious African style..
Like I said earlier, the use of weaves and extensions in AA society has risen in the last 20 years and is now very prevalent, on top of the perming and relaxing that was always common
All women of all races use weaves and extensions and majority of AA that use such get styles that embrace black hair. Majority The ones who get their hair straight do not do so to emulate white women but Mixed black women. As I said White Women do not have straight hair but Thin, stingy hair, Asain women are the ones who have "Silky" straight hair. White Women perm and staighten their hair t emulate Asians.
Please show me anywhere on the planet or in Ancient Egypt where they used destructive means to achieve such hair styles.
Again majority of AA are not perming their hair enmasse for the very reason that it damages black hair. Majority of AA get braids or wear weaves, not Perms.
Shaving the head is not necessarily destructive. Weaving other peoples hair or fake hair is also not necessarily destructive either. However, the processes used for African American hair are destructive and this is because of the history of the American hair care industry.
Read above, majority of AA wear extensions, Weaves or Braids not Perms, and Im not a woman so I can't comment on why the ones who perm their hair do so. Even then Majotiry of AA who get Perms get a style that is worn by Black Women only, not to emulate white women.
Africans didn't have chemical relaxers and perms even 500 years ago. And African hair as well as black peoples hair all over the world vary in texture, so they style it all kinds of ways. That fact doesn't make the African American methods and styles any less destructive on their hair.
As I said Africans were colonized and subjugated as well. Your blabbering that AA introduced Perming and Skin Lightening to Africans is unfounded. Step into Somalia, North Africa and even some SSA nations and you will find Blacks hating on other Blacks who appear more Bantu. No where in our History have AA genocided other AA who appear more Bantu, that was an African thing.
You Africans have your own self hate issiues that have nothing to do with AA's.
You only bash AA because we are an easy target.
Jari, the way African Americans treat their hair is not the way Africans treat their hair and is certainly not the way the ancient Egyptians did it.
You said it yourself. Therefore, comparing the history, culture and circumstances of African Americans and their hair treatment to Africa or Egypt makes no sense. They aren't the same. In the American historical development of hair styles and treatment, race is most definitely an issue and trying to deny or downplay it makes no sense. Now today's African American women may not think of it that way, but that does not change the history or development of chemical processes and heat treatments for African American hair which only really came about 100 years ago and are definitely rooted in the history of racism in this country.
I am talking of the social and cultural history of the way hair is treated among African Americans and you are claiming it is purely simply Africans being creative........ and race has nothing to do with it. Right.
It doesnt make sense to compare AA hairstyles to African hairstyles, especially since those you posted are 100% natural. And none of those hair styles match the popular styles of African American hair and weaves.
Please show me where any of those Africans had to go through any sort of special chemical process or have weaves and extensions applied to have those looks. They didn't. And that is the point. All Africans don't have the same hair texture and therefore the same hair styles. I already acknowledged this. But that doesn't make the hairstyles and processes used by African Americans "natural". Chemical relaxers and straightening combs are not "natural".
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
^^^ All of this and you still have not proven that majority of AA walk around with hair styles trying to emulate White women. And on the damaging effects of Perming, Well what do you think AA did before Perms and staightening was invented?? Nothing you have posted proves majority of AA want to look like white women, if anything it would be an insult to majority of AA to say they want to emulate white women.
Is there any European influence on AA vanity abd beauty standards, Yes....I mean AA have been living around European people for almost 400+ years, what do you expect. However any influence of Europeans on AA is greatly retuned. European Americans are a bunch of cultureless Sponges who go around emulating different peoples. Even the southern Drawl so cherished and characteristic of White Southerners was heavily influenced by AA speak and so called "Ebonics". From Music to Dress to Accents and culture AA have influenced whites, so please spare me on this "Self Hate" b.s
You and the others would never claim whites who go around saying "Naw" "Summa-Bitch" Naa I aint goin do nuthin" "We's Aint" Uhhh-Huh...etc have "Self Hate"...
You won't say a white person playing Jazz and Rock and Roll has self hate..
And how do you know if Perming and Staightening Chemicals had been invented that A. Egyptians and Berbers etc would not have used them back in the day. If anything its Africans esp. Somalis, Ethiopians and Latino/Hispanic Blacks who run around with their Hair like Whites and Meztizo/White Spanish women.
I would bet money if you went to African Communities esp. Horners, North Africans, and Nilotics and Latino/Hispanic blacks and asked them what color they are majority would give you any and every other color except black and many would claim to be Jews, Arabs, Spainards, White, Indian/Native America anything besides and African. While majotiry probaly 90% of AA even the Mixed ones would claim to be black. As I said you Africans have your own issiues and hatred against Bantu looking Africans esp. In North Africa and the Horn, blame yourselves and your colonial and subjugated history by Europeans not AA's.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^ All of this and you still have not proven that majority of AA walk around with hair styles trying to emulate White women. And on the damaging effects of Perming, Well what do you think AA did before Perms and staightening was invented?? Nothing you have posted proves majority of AA want to look like white women, if anything it would be an insult to majority of AA to say they want to emulate white women.
Is there any European influence on AA vanity abd beauty standards, Yes....I mean AA have been living around European people for almost 400+ years, what do you expect. However any influence of Europeans on AA is greatly retuned. European Americans are a bunch of cultureless Sponges who go around emulating different peoples. Even the southern Drawl so cherished and characteristic of White Southerners was heavily influenced by AA speak and so called "Ebonics". From Music to Dress to Accents and culture AA have influenced whites, so please spare me on this "Self Hate" b.s
You and the others would never claim whites who go around saying "Naw" "Summa-Bitch" Naa I aint goin do nuthin" "We's Aint" Uhhh-Huh...etc have "Self Hate"...
You won't say a white person playing Jazz and Rock and Roll has self hate..
And how do you know if Perming and Staightening Chemicals had been invented that A. Egyptians and Berbers etc would not have used them back in the day. If anything its Africans esp. Somalis, Ethiopians and Latino/Hispanic Blacks who run around with their Hair like Whites and Meztizo/White Spanish women.
I would bet money if you went to African Communities esp. Horners, North Africans, and Nilotics and Latino/Hispanic blacks and asked them what color they are majority would give you any and every other color except black and many would claim to be Jews, Arabs, Spainards, White, Indian/Native America anything besides and African. While majotiry probaly 90% of AA even the Mixed ones would claim to be black. As I said you Africans have your own issiues and hatred against Bantu looking Africans esp. In North Africa and the Horn, blame yourselves and your colonial and subjugated history by Europeans not AA's.
Jari, I said the styles of African American hair are a byproduct of American racism and a European standard of beauty. And yes, that is the root of why black women in America spend so much money on chemicals and treatments to alter their hair. That is not an "ancient Egyptian" tradition, even if weaves and wigs originated in Africa.
Show me some Africans who ever processed their hair to make it look like this:
What hairstyles were the Africans wearing in West Africa before they were brought to the Americas? Certainly not anything like what you see today.
The point is that you are deying that the African American hair styling phenomenon is a recent trend driven primarily by the development of chemicals and processes to treat African American hair and make it straight. It is not an ancient African process. You have not disproven this and it is that process that is destructive.
Bottom line, the question is why don't black women wear their hair the way it came out of their mommy's tummy? And if you get to the bottom of that then you will see where I am correct. You don't spend billions of dollars treating and processing something that you like as it is naturally. Sorry, just because some black women have deep seated issues of denial, that doesn't mean subconsciously that self-hatred isn't a core issue.
Purely an American phenomenon:
quote: Hair relaxing is a type of lotion or cream which makes hair less curly and easier to straighten by chemically "relaxing" the natural curls.
Alkaline relaxers were informally discovered in the United States during the 19th century when Garrett Augustus Morgan, an African-American, observed that it is possible to change the basic structure of the hair shaft when certain chemicals penetrate the cortical layer.
As a clothing manufacturer, Morgan experimented with a liquid that gave sewing machine needles a high polish and prevented the needle from scorching fabric as it sewed. Accidentally, he discovered that this liquid not only straightened fabric but also hair. He made the liquid into a cream and began the G.A. Morgan Hair Refining Company.
In addition, Morgan also made a black hair oil dye and a curved-tooth iron comb in 1910, to straighten hair.
With the proceeds made from Garrett Morgan’s hair refining company, he funded other projects that lead to his invention of the gas mask, traffic signal and, before his death, a self extinguishing cigarette.
quote: Morgan's first employment in Cleveland was as a sewing-machine repairman, and within a short time he acquired and managed his own shop. It was during this time, or so legend has it, that Morgan wiped his hands, which were covered with a lubricant used for the machines, on a bit of wooly cloth. When he returned to the shop the next day, the cloth was smooth. Interested in replicating this result, he experimented on a neighbor's Airedale dog, whose hair became so smooth that its owner "drove the cur from his house," not recognizing his own pet. Satisfied with his experiment, Morgan tried the same preparation on his own hair, and thus was born G.A. Morgan's Hair Refiner. From this preparation Morgan evolved a wide line of hair products, such that a few years later he could rightly claim to offer "the only complete line of hair preparations in the world."
You keep ducking and dodging the point. The Point is that majority of AA don't want to look white. And any European influence on AA beauty standards is minute. AA women want to look mixed with black features. Plain and Simple.
Also I showed you large groups of AA's and majority don't have Perms majority wear Weaves or extensions.
Also How the hell do you know if Perming Chemecals had not been invented in the B.C era or Middle Ages that Africans like the Berbers and Egyptians would not have used them. Majority of Mixed Africans break their necks to deny or disown their African lineage unlike AA's many whom will be Red Haired and colored Eyed and will be the most racist anti white blacks in our community. You have African women running around in Burkas and Veils from Arab Influence and Africans going around tracing some minute Arab and Jewish Lineage speaking Arabic and facing Mecca 5 times a day, so how the hell do you know if some of these Africans would not have used Perms and Chemicals back in those days??
Ill say it for the 3rd time many Africans have a problem with Bantu looking Africans esp. In North Africa and the Horn and the Nile Valley. You people have been Subject to Eurasian people for thousands of years, walking around Praying to a Rock in Mecca 5 times a day and discriminating against Bantu Africans.
Go talk about your own self hate issiues and bootlicking history and subjugation in your own lands. Stop trying to paint AA as Self Haters or trying to put your facination with Skin Bleach on the hands of AA's..
Look in the Mirror bub..
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^ All of this and you still have not proven that majority of AA walk around with hair styles trying to emulate White women. And on the damaging effects of Perming, Well what do you think AA did before Perms and staightening was invented?? Nothing you have posted proves majority of AA want to look like white women, if anything it would be an insult to majority of AA to say they want to emulate white women.
Is there any European influence on AA vanity abd beauty standards, Yes....I mean AA have been living around European people for almost 400+ years, what do you expect. However any influence of Europeans on AA is greatly retuned. European Americans are a bunch of cultureless Sponges who go around emulating different peoples. Even the southern Drawl so cherished and characteristic of White Southerners was heavily influenced by AA speak and so called "Ebonics". From Music to Dress to Accents and culture AA have influenced whites, so please spare me on this "Self Hate" b.s
You and the others would never claim whites who go around saying "Naw" "Summa-Bitch" Naa I aint goin do nuthin" "We's Aint" Uhhh-Huh...etc have "Self Hate"...
You won't say a white person playing Jazz and Rock and Roll has self hate..
And how do you know if Perming and Staightening Chemicals had been invented that A. Egyptians and Berbers etc would not have used them back in the day. If anything its Africans esp. Somalis, Ethiopians and Latino/Hispanic Blacks who run around with their Hair like Whites and Meztizo/White Spanish women.
I would bet money if you went to African Communities esp. Horners, North Africans, and Nilotics and Latino/Hispanic blacks and asked them what color they are majority would give you any and every other color except black and many would claim to be Jews, Arabs, Spainards, White, Indian/Native America anything besides and African. While majotiry probaly 90% of AA even the Mixed ones would claim to be black. As I said you Africans have your own issiues and hatred against Bantu looking Africans esp. In North Africa and the Horn, blame yourselves and your colonial and subjugated history by Europeans not AA's.
Jari, I said the styles of African American hair are a byproduct of American racism and a European standard of beauty. And yes, that is the root of why black women in America spend so much money on chemicals and treatments to alter their hair. That is not an "ancient Egyptian" tradition, even if weaves and wigs originated in Africa.
Show me some Africans who ever processed their hair to make it look like this:
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: You keep ducking and dodging the point. The Point is that majority of AA don't want to look white. And any European influence on AA beauty standards is minute. AA women want to look mixed with black features. Plain and Simple.
Also I showed you large groups of AA's and majority don't have Perms majority wear Weaves or extensions.
Also How the hell do you know if Perming Chemecals had not been invented in the B.C era or Middle Ages that Africans like the Berbers and Egyptians would not have used them. You have African women running around in Burkas and Veils from Arab Influence and Africans going around tracing some minute Arab and Jewish Lineage speaking Arabic and facing Mecca 5 times a day, so how the hell do you know if some of these Africans would not have used Perms and Chemicals back in those days??
Ill say it for the 3rd time many Africans have a problem with Bantu looking Africans esp. In North Africa and the Horn and the Nile Valley. You people have been Subject to Eurasian people for thousands of years, walking around Praying to a Rock in Mecca 5 times a day and discriminating against Bantu Africans.
Go talk about your own self hate issiues and bootlicking history and subjugation in your own lands. Stop trying to paint AA as Self Haters or trying to put your facination with Skin Bleach on the hands of AA's..
Look in the Mirror bub..
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^ All of this and you still have not proven that majority of AA walk around with hair styles trying to emulate White women. And on the damaging effects of Perming, Well what do you think AA did before Perms and staightening was invented?? Nothing you have posted proves majority of AA want to look like white women, if anything it would be an insult to majority of AA to say they want to emulate white women.
Is there any European influence on AA vanity abd beauty standards, Yes....I mean AA have been living around European people for almost 400+ years, what do you expect. However any influence of Europeans on AA is greatly retuned. European Americans are a bunch of cultureless Sponges who go around emulating different peoples. Even the southern Drawl so cherished and characteristic of White Southerners was heavily influenced by AA speak and so called "Ebonics". From Music to Dress to Accents and culture AA have influenced whites, so please spare me on this "Self Hate" b.s
You and the others would never claim whites who go around saying "Naw" "Summa-Bitch" Naa I aint goin do nuthin" "We's Aint" Uhhh-Huh...etc have "Self Hate"...
You won't say a white person playing Jazz and Rock and Roll has self hate..
And how do you know if Perming and Staightening Chemicals had been invented that A. Egyptians and Berbers etc would not have used them back in the day. If anything its Africans esp. Somalis, Ethiopians and Latino/Hispanic Blacks who run around with their Hair like Whites and Meztizo/White Spanish women.
I would bet money if you went to African Communities esp. Horners, North Africans, and Nilotics and Latino/Hispanic blacks and asked them what color they are majority would give you any and every other color except black and many would claim to be Jews, Arabs, Spainards, White, Indian/Native America anything besides and African. While majotiry probaly 90% of AA even the Mixed ones would claim to be black. As I said you Africans have your own issiues and hatred against Bantu looking Africans esp. In North Africa and the Horn, blame yourselves and your colonial and subjugated history by Europeans not AA's.
Jari, I said the styles of African American hair are a byproduct of American racism and a European standard of beauty. And yes, that is the root of why black women in America spend so much money on chemicals and treatments to alter their hair. That is not an "ancient Egyptian" tradition, even if weaves and wigs originated in Africa.
Show me some Africans who ever processed their hair to make it look like this:
Please stop with the rhetorical questions and face facts. Africans who were brought to America were not wearing their hair this way. They used natural processes on their hair, including braiding. They were not straightening it.
You simply are making a non argument. Africans in Africa never straightened their hair the way African Americans do, using heat or chemicals. Africans with straighter hair wore styles that showcased that natural hair texture. Ancient Egyptians wore wigs, which means they didn't alter their own hair or they used extensions. Show me an ancient Egyptian hair style that looks like those straightened styles found on African Americans. You wont find any. But if you do it is primarily because many Nile Valley people have hair that is naturally straighter than others.
At this point you are simply going against history to make an argument that makes absolutely no sense.
Why? Because you haven't shown where these artificially permed and relaxed styles of hair were ever found in West Africa or ancient Egypt at any point in history before Africans got to America.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
Blacks hate their natural wooly hair texture and they crave straight long hair like whites.
Black children still choose white dolls e.g. the long haired blonde barbie dolls over their own race.
It is nothing more than self-hate. Most afrocentrics however on this forum are in denial of this.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Your irrelevant babble has proven nothing.
1) Prove that Majority of AA women want to look white.
2) AA have lived around Europeans for hundreds of years and you expect AA to be the same as when we were in Africa, ignoring the fact that AA have influenced Europeans but I doubt you would claim European Americans are self haters because they don't go around speaking Irish, Welsh and Italian and speaking Proper English.
You operate in a slave mentality or in your case a Colonial Mentality where you think you can bash AA while claimin you Africans retained your African Culture. You Africans were running around speaking Arabic, with Burkas and Rags on you heads praying to a Rock in Arabia, Claiming to be Bidan and Arabs before African Americans were even a thought. You people were rounding up African people and making them the #1 export while Asians, Europeans, and Turks were out banning the sell and enslavement of their people. Slavery still exists in parts of Africa and many of these people are always seen as being "Darker" or more Bantu than the Master, even if the Slave Master is Coal Black, his Ignorant ass will use any minute Arab blood and claim to be White and use this to discriminate against as Bantu looking Africa..
You expect me to believe had Perms not been Invented earlier that Africans would not have used them?? LMAO. GTFOH.
Somali's, Horners, Eritreans, Taureg, Beja, Saidi's etc are some of the most racist people agains so called Bantu looking Africans all running around claiming to be Arabs...
Who taught you to hate the "Bantu" African, Hmm was it the European who called some of you "Hamites" or Dark Whites/Caucasians"
Was it the Arab who said Kush was Cursed black and that African blacks were unintelligent and prone to dancing??...
Who was it, because AA dont discrimnate againt Bantu looking Africans..
And you expect me to believe if the Arabs were Perming their Hairs these bootlicking Africans would not follow suit..??
Where were the Africans who railed against the Racist Persians and Bhagdad Scholars who claimed Kush was Cursed black way beack thousands of years before AA were enslaved in America.
Where were the Africans who railed against the Ephitet "Abdeed" being applied to blacks??
Where were the Pro Black Africans at in Mauritania etc when Leuko"Berbers" and Arabs told the native Mauritanians that they were slaves because they are black??
Where were the "Sud" is Beautiful, "Sudani" Pride against the racist scholars at Bhagdad??
You people were bootlicking even before the rise of White Supremacy...
You have yet to prove that majority of AA women want to look white.
AA have self hate issiues and are influenced by Europeans but please spare me with your failed logic that Africans are less self haters because they did Perm their hair because the evidence proves had they had the means many would have used Perms to boslter their minute "Arab" and Bidan lineage claims.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: You keep ducking and dodging the point. The Point is that majority of AA don't want to look white. And any European influence on AA beauty standards is minute. AA women want to look mixed with black features. Plain and Simple.
Also I showed you large groups of AA's and majority don't have Perms majority wear Weaves or extensions.
Also How the hell do you know if Perming Chemecals had not been invented in the B.C era or Middle Ages that Africans like the Berbers and Egyptians would not have used them. You have African women running around in Burkas and Veils from Arab Influence and Africans going around tracing some minute Arab and Jewish Lineage speaking Arabic and facing Mecca 5 times a day, so how the hell do you know if some of these Africans would not have used Perms and Chemicals back in those days??
Ill say it for the 3rd time many Africans have a problem with Bantu looking Africans esp. In North Africa and the Horn and the Nile Valley. You people have been Subject to Eurasian people for thousands of years, walking around Praying to a Rock in Mecca 5 times a day and discriminating against Bantu Africans.
Go talk about your own self hate issiues and bootlicking history and subjugation in your own lands. Stop trying to paint AA as Self Haters or trying to put your facination with Skin Bleach on the hands of AA's..
Look in the Mirror bub..
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^ All of this and you still have not proven that majority of AA walk around with hair styles trying to emulate White women. And on the damaging effects of Perming, Well what do you think AA did before Perms and staightening was invented?? Nothing you have posted proves majority of AA want to look like white women, if anything it would be an insult to majority of AA to say they want to emulate white women.
Is there any European influence on AA vanity abd beauty standards, Yes....I mean AA have been living around European people for almost 400+ years, what do you expect. However any influence of Europeans on AA is greatly retuned. European Americans are a bunch of cultureless Sponges who go around emulating different peoples. Even the southern Drawl so cherished and characteristic of White Southerners was heavily influenced by AA speak and so called "Ebonics". From Music to Dress to Accents and culture AA have influenced whites, so please spare me on this "Self Hate" b.s
You and the others would never claim whites who go around saying "Naw" "Summa-Bitch" Naa I aint goin do nuthin" "We's Aint" Uhhh-Huh...etc have "Self Hate"...
You won't say a white person playing Jazz and Rock and Roll has self hate..
And how do you know if Perming and Staightening Chemicals had been invented that A. Egyptians and Berbers etc would not have used them back in the day. If anything its Africans esp. Somalis, Ethiopians and Latino/Hispanic Blacks who run around with their Hair like Whites and Meztizo/White Spanish women.
I would bet money if you went to African Communities esp. Horners, North Africans, and Nilotics and Latino/Hispanic blacks and asked them what color they are majority would give you any and every other color except black and many would claim to be Jews, Arabs, Spainards, White, Indian/Native America anything besides and African. While majotiry probaly 90% of AA even the Mixed ones would claim to be black. As I said you Africans have your own issiues and hatred against Bantu looking Africans esp. In North Africa and the Horn, blame yourselves and your colonial and subjugated history by Europeans not AA's.
Jari, I said the styles of African American hair are a byproduct of American racism and a European standard of beauty. And yes, that is the root of why black women in America spend so much money on chemicals and treatments to alter their hair. That is not an "ancient Egyptian" tradition, even if weaves and wigs originated in Africa.
Show me some Africans who ever processed their hair to make it look like this:
Please stop with the rhetorical questions and face facts. Africans who were brought to America were not wearing their hair this way. They used natural processes on their hair, including braiding. They were not straightening it.
You simply are making a non argument. Africans in Africa never straightened their hair the way African Americans do, using heat or chemicals. Africans with straighter hair wore styles that showcased that natural hair texture. Ancient Egyptians wore wigs, which means they didn't alter their own hair or they used extensions. Show me an ancient Egyptian hair style that looks like those straightened styles found on African Americans. You wont find any. But if you do it is primarily because many Nile Valley people have hair that is naturally straighter than others.
At this point you are simply going against history to make an argument that makes absolutely no sense.
Why? Because you haven't shown where these artificially permed and relaxed styles of hair were ever found in West Africa or ancient Egypt at any point in history before Africans got to America.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
How cute, you and Doug should get together and start your own gang or fan club..LMAO.
Imagine a racist European fag telling AA who and what we are and some renegade pseudo Radical African) following suit.
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: ]Virtually none of them want that though.
Blacks hate their natural wooly hair texture and they crave straight long hair like whites.
Black children still choose white dolls e.g. the long haired blonde barbie dolls over their own race.
It is nothing more than self-hate. Most afrocentrics however on this forum are in denial of this.
Posted by Horus G (Member # 15917) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Imagine a racist European fag telling AA who and what we are and some renegade pseudo Radical African) following suit.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Your irrelevant babble has proven nothing.
1) Prove that Majority of AA women want to look white.
2) AA have lived around Europeans for hundreds of years and you expect AA to be the same as when we were in Africa, ignoring the fact that AA have influenced Europeans but I doubt you would claim European Americans are self haters because they don't go around speaking Irish, Welsh and Italian and speaking Proper English.
You operate in a slave mentality or in your case a Colonial Mentality where you think you can bash AA while claimin you Africans retained your African Culture. You Africans were running around speaking Arabic, with Burkas and Rags on you heads praying to a Rock in Arabia, Claiming to be Bidan and Arabs before African Americans were even a thought. You people were rounding up African people and making them the #1 export while Asians, Europeans, and Turks were out banning the sell and enslavement of their people. Slavery still exists in parts of Africa and many of these people are always seen as being "Darker" or more Bantu than the Master, even if the Slave Master is Coal Black, his Ignorant ass will use any minute Arab blood and claim to be White and use this to discriminate against as Bantu looking Africa..
You expect me to believe had Perms not been Invented earlier that Africans would not have used them?? LMAO. GTFOH.
Somali's, Horners, Eritreans, Taureg, Beja, Saidi's etc are some of the most racist people agains so called Bantu looking Africans all running around claiming to be Arabs...
Who taught you to hate the "Bantu" African, Hmm was it the European who called some of you "Hamites" or Dark Whites/Caucasians"
Was it the Arab who said Kush was Cursed black and that African blacks were unintelligent and prone to dancing??...
Who was it, because AA dont discrimnate againt Bantu looking Africans..
And you expect me to believe if the Arabs were Perming their Hairs these bootlicking Africans would not follow suit..??
Where were the Africans who railed against the Racist Persians and Bhagdad Scholars who claimed Kush was Cursed black way beack thousands of years before AA were enslaved in America.
Where were the Africans who railed against the Ephitet "Abdeed" being applied to blacks??
Where were the Pro Black Africans at in Mauritania etc when Leuko"Berbers" and Arabs told the native Mauritanians that they were slaves because they are black??
Where were the "Sud" is Beautiful, "Sudani" Pride against the racist scholars at Bhagdad??
You people were bootlicking even before the rise of White Supremacy...
You have yet to prove that majority of AA women want to look white.
AA have self hate issiues and are influenced by Europeans but please spare me with your failed logic that Africans are less self haters because they did Perm their hair because the evidence proves had they had the means many would have used Perms to boslter their minute "Arab" and Bidan lineage claims.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: You keep ducking and dodging the point. The Point is that majority of AA don't want to look white. And any European influence on AA beauty standards is minute. AA women want to look mixed with black features. Plain and Simple.
Also I showed you large groups of AA's and majority don't have Perms majority wear Weaves or extensions.
Also How the hell do you know if Perming Chemecals had not been invented in the B.C era or Middle Ages that Africans like the Berbers and Egyptians would not have used them. You have African women running around in Burkas and Veils from Arab Influence and Africans going around tracing some minute Arab and Jewish Lineage speaking Arabic and facing Mecca 5 times a day, so how the hell do you know if some of these Africans would not have used Perms and Chemicals back in those days??
Ill say it for the 3rd time many Africans have a problem with Bantu looking Africans esp. In North Africa and the Horn and the Nile Valley. You people have been Subject to Eurasian people for thousands of years, walking around Praying to a Rock in Mecca 5 times a day and discriminating against Bantu Africans.
Go talk about your own self hate issiues and bootlicking history and subjugation in your own lands. Stop trying to paint AA as Self Haters or trying to put your facination with Skin Bleach on the hands of AA's..
Look in the Mirror bub..
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^ All of this and you still have not proven that majority of AA walk around with hair styles trying to emulate White women. And on the damaging effects of Perming, Well what do you think AA did before Perms and staightening was invented?? Nothing you have posted proves majority of AA want to look like white women, if anything it would be an insult to majority of AA to say they want to emulate white women.
Is there any European influence on AA vanity abd beauty standards, Yes....I mean AA have been living around European people for almost 400+ years, what do you expect. However any influence of Europeans on AA is greatly retuned. European Americans are a bunch of cultureless Sponges who go around emulating different peoples. Even the southern Drawl so cherished and characteristic of White Southerners was heavily influenced by AA speak and so called "Ebonics". From Music to Dress to Accents and culture AA have influenced whites, so please spare me on this "Self Hate" b.s
You and the others would never claim whites who go around saying "Naw" "Summa-Bitch" Naa I aint goin do nuthin" "We's Aint" Uhhh-Huh...etc have "Self Hate"...
You won't say a white person playing Jazz and Rock and Roll has self hate..
And how do you know if Perming and Staightening Chemicals had been invented that A. Egyptians and Berbers etc would not have used them back in the day. If anything its Africans esp. Somalis, Ethiopians and Latino/Hispanic Blacks who run around with their Hair like Whites and Meztizo/White Spanish women.
I would bet money if you went to African Communities esp. Horners, North Africans, and Nilotics and Latino/Hispanic blacks and asked them what color they are majority would give you any and every other color except black and many would claim to be Jews, Arabs, Spainards, White, Indian/Native America anything besides and African. While majotiry probaly 90% of AA even the Mixed ones would claim to be black. As I said you Africans have your own issiues and hatred against Bantu looking Africans esp. In North Africa and the Horn, blame yourselves and your colonial and subjugated history by Europeans not AA's.
Jari, I said the styles of African American hair are a byproduct of American racism and a European standard of beauty. And yes, that is the root of why black women in America spend so much money on chemicals and treatments to alter their hair. That is not an "ancient Egyptian" tradition, even if weaves and wigs originated in Africa.
Show me some Africans who ever processed their hair to make it look like this:
Please stop with the rhetorical questions and face facts. Africans who were brought to America were not wearing their hair this way. They used natural processes on their hair, including braiding. They were not straightening it.
You simply are making a non argument. Africans in Africa never straightened their hair the way African Americans do, using heat or chemicals. Africans with straighter hair wore styles that showcased that natural hair texture. Ancient Egyptians wore wigs, which means they didn't alter their own hair or they used extensions. Show me an ancient Egyptian hair style that looks like those straightened styles found on African Americans. You wont find any. But if you do it is primarily because many Nile Valley people have hair that is naturally straighter than others.
At this point you are simply going against history to make an argument that makes absolutely no sense.
Why? Because you haven't shown where these artificially permed and relaxed styles of hair were ever found in West Africa or ancient Egypt at any point in history before Africans got to America.
LOL. Jari, all the stuff you are posting is irrelevant.
African American hairstyles are unique. They aren't "African" in the sense that you cannot show me how this:
Reflects an African hair tradition.
Yet you sat right here and tried to claim that it does. Most black females I see everyday have hairstyles more like this. So show me what African tradition that stems from. Don't go into any thing else, just show me what African tribe or culture did their hair like that in ancient times or last 300 years prior to any white influence and how that African tradition survived the middle passage to become the basis for African American hair.
And if you can't show me how this reflects an African hair tradition, you cannot claim it is somehow a direct reflection of ancient Egyptian or Ancient African hair culture. Because it isn't.
Sure, all forms of body decoration and cosmetics came from Africa but that was thousands of years ago. But right now Europeans dominate much of the global beauty industry and because of that domination, Europeans are able to set European features and styles as the ideal of beauty. Those are simply facts.
And you cannot show me one tribe in Africa or ancient Egypt that ever wore their hair this way. So cut that bull crap that this reflects "African beauty" trends.
Now don't get me wrong, I know full well that black people all over the world rock their hair in all sorts of ways. But the difference is that it is a reflection of their natural hair texture not any sort of fake chemical processing to make it look that way. They were born with their hair like that. For example:
Blacks hate their natural wooly hair texture and they crave straight long hair like whites.
Black children still choose white dolls e.g. the long haired blonde barbie dolls over their own race.
It is nothing more than self-hate. Most afrocentrics however on this forum are in denial of this. [/QB]
Funny is, you've already have been beat hard on this one.
Since these are Asians. Not Africans. Thou, belong to one of the oldest Hg. Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:
How can Blacks have pride when they are artifically straightening their hair so they can look like whites? Its self-hate not pride.
Ancient African females like the one featured here beat their modern counterparts to it, in sporting the long straight hair look:
This was long before these Africans even knew Europeans existed.
Another way to lengthen the hair, was to braid hair into thin long locks...again, long before these Africans knew anything such as Europeans existed:
So, when "Black" females straighten their own natural hair, they are merely following a long tradition of treating hair. It is no more anomalous than European females treating their hair and stylizing it, including braiding it.
It's been a ball to see apologies or excuses being made for how "Black" females treat their hair.
Africans brought to America were not wearing their hair like this 300 years ago. African Americans more often than not wore their hair in natural styles or braided for most of their history. And the origin of hair decoration predates even Egypt in the interior of Africa. Of course Africans invented hair decoration and treatment. That isn't the point.
The thing is, you are getting too caught up on specific individual hair treatment styles, and drawing lessons about the impact of American social relations on Black American women based on this, that you've lost sight of the bigger picture, about treatment of hair by Afro-females being something that goes back thousands and thousands of years, which you evidently reinforce above, by saying "it isn't the point".
It's precisely because that point did not cross the minds of posters bickering back and forth, that it was necessary to bring it to the fore.
Whenever hair is treated, that by logic, means that it is being turned into a state that wasn't the original one. Straightening one's hair would not be different.
White females treat their hair all the time, which is apparently not the same state as their natural one, but not many bicker about that.
You are saying that Black American females treat their hair in a certain way that Africans didn't; well, that doesn't really matter. It is still part of the long tradition of treating hair. Heck, Africans don't all treat their hair the same way either.
quote:The ancient Egyptians wore wigs and weaves. But they were not second/third class citizens in a foreign land subjected to abuse and mistreatment by a larger society of non black people with different standards of beauty that were against natural African beauty.
Be that as it may, can you say without question, that the female figure in this earlier photo is wearing a wig rather than her natural hair?
And Jari, you can falsify Doug's argument without putting continental Africans down.
My guess has always been that Doug himself maybe an American.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:
Blacks hate their natural wooly hair texture and they crave straight long hair like whites.
Whites go to saloons all the time to get their hair styled in ways that is not natural, including curling it up. Is that not a form hair treatment?
Your beef seems to be that Afro-females have the audacity to treat their hair as well. Well, they've been doing it longer than European females.
quote: Black children still choose white dolls e.g. the long haired blonde barbie dolls over their own race.
That more than likely because many Black parents just get dolls for their kids, without traditionally paying too much mind to the color of the doll, since after all, most of the dolls on the market are usually "white" dolls. Of course now, many Black moms are becoming increasingly color conscious when they buy dolls.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: The thing is, you are getting too caught up on specific individual hair treatment styles, and drawing lessons about the impact of American social relations on Black American women based on this, that you've lost sight of the bigger picture, about treatment of hair by Afro-females being something that goes back thousands and thousands of years, which you evidently reinforce above, by saying "it isn't the point".
Hair style and human culture only exists in a social context. Therefore you cannot analyze the impacts of society on the culture of hair without studying that society. While Africans have been treating their hair for thousands of years, that does not change the fact that the social circumstances and culture of America that caused African American straight hairstyles had little to nothing to do with ancient Egypt or even Africa directly. The primary influence on African American hairstyles was the larger European oriented society and its ideas of beauty. Trying to deny that the society and culture of America has primarily been European dominated and oriented with Africans and their culture being downplayed and oppressed within it is simply nonsense. Those similarities to and influences from European culture and society are directly observable and obvious, making any attempt to tie such trends to Africa absurd.
Again, back to the source of all this in the late 1800s:
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Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
I wish I could find that clip from "The View" where Sherri Shephard was telling Whoopi Goldberg why she wears her hair straight. And she said it straight out: she wanted to look like those white women on the hair commercials.
Look at those wigs. Which one looks like an ancient Egyptian hair style? Which looks like a white hair style? Coincidence or African tradition? The only difference between the white women getting extensions and processing is that their hair is already straight. They don't need to process their hair to make it straight. Not so with African American women.
The fact is that many black women are going damn their bald by treating their hair with chemicals and heat. And because of this, many of them need to wear wigs. All of that to create a hair style and texture that is not natural and is simply a reflection of white hair texture and styling.
Many of the comments from this episode reflect what is said here. However, the underlying point here is that Whoopi and Sherry are saying that the only good hair is straight hair. Why else would a black woman have to take hours and time every day to work their hair if they just combed it out and wore it natural? Because they don't wear it natural. That is the point. They want to make their hair look unnatural and they talk that crap that it is because they want "flexibility". Sherry's hair is falling out because of all the crap she does to it to get it straight. And to her, straight means more manageable. How on earth is black curly hair not manageable? You just put grease on it and comb or brush it. So more manageable means straight? That is not more manageable, that is simply not natural. But these are the reason black women give nowadays for doing all these things to not wear their hair the way they were born with it. They have been indoctrinated by their parents into thinking that straight hair is "normal" and "natural" for black women. How so? If you have to straighten it with hot irons, chemicals and other processes to achieve that texture then it is not natural. And why do all of that if your natural hair texture is already beautiful?
The fact is that even with the hair straightening products created in the late 1800s, most of the American beauty establishment did not cater to black women's hair in its natural state. The predominant hair styles promoted by the beauty industry was the European hair style. And that style has become adopted by black women. And this is the primary reason those chemical relaxers and straightening products were created to begin with. No amount of lying and denying will change that.
quote: African Americans spent $507 billion (out of our total estimated buying power of $836 billion) in 2009 on hair care and personal grooming items, according to an annual report published by Target Market News. This figure is up 16.6% from the $435 billion spent the previous year......
Imagine what could be accomplished in the African American community with even half of the $507 Billion Dollars annually spent on hair care products. Now stop, because such fancy is just a pipe dream and unfortunately the real economic figures do not bode well for the African American community as critiqued by social scholars. For no matter how you try to spin the debate – fashion fabulous hair is connected to our need to be accepted by the dominate culture – as beautiful, as equal – as worthy.
"The deep seated psychological and social conditioning to see white features and light skin as the most desirable, and signature of beauty and acceptance has not diminished," commented Earl Ofari Hutchinson, author and social commentator.
"If anything as we move further from the black pride and consciousness of the 1960s with an entire new generation, the psychic reconditioning toward a natural style of beauty has gotten further removed."
Hair style and human culture only exists in a social context. Therefore you cannot analyze the impacts of society on the culture of hair without studying that society.
You are flinging your bat into air instead of hitting the ball. Hair treatment would of course, have to be social, since it isn't natural. You've already been informed of this.
quote: While Africans have been treating their hair for thousands of years, that does not change the fact that the social circumstances and culture of America that caused African American straight hairstyles had little to nothing to do with ancient Egypt or even Africa directly.
You are approaching this issue with too much emotion, which is why you are not seeing the point I'm making. You are too bogged down with "hair styles" themselves, that, to repeat, you've lost sight of the bigger picture: treatment of hair by Afro-females being something that goes back thousands and thousands of years
You are not seeing the fundamental social generality of hair treatment.
quote: Trying to deny that the society and culture of America has primarily been European dominated and oriented with Africans and their culture being downplayed and oppressed within it is simply nonsense.
You are misinformed. I made no issue, one way or the other, of the influence American social relations on hair styles, you did. That's what I've been trying to get you away from, and see this instead:
Whatever the circumstances that influenced Afro-American female hair treatment styles, it remains a fact that it is part of a long tradition of hair treatment, which goes back thousands of years, in Africa.
So, the very act of Afro-American females treating their hair, should not be anomalous. Someone like cassiterides takes issue with Afro-women's hair treatment, by saying that it is not their "natural" hair state. Well, what hair treatment is natural?
Going by that reasoning, even European females should be condescended to, as they treat their hairs all the time.
Someone like cassiterides doesn't go, "Euro-females curl up their hair fibers"--which is not the natural state of their hair; therefore, they must necessarily be trying to emulate "curly haired" people, when they do that--in any shape or form.
Instead, we hear whining about Afro-women emulating Euro-women for wanting to "straighten their hair fibers".
Let me repeat: Any hair treatment amounts to altering the natural state of hair, or to put in another way: Any hairstyle that is not natural, is a hair treatment. This is the broad point about hair treatment, that I'm trying to open your eyes to.
BTW, you are on notice for evading the call to tell me whether you can definitively establish that the AE female figurine is wearing natural hair or a wig.
When someone evades, it tells me that they are afraid of being vulnerable.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
Hair style and human culture only exists in a social context. Therefore you cannot analyze the impacts of society on the culture of hair without studying that society.
You are flinging your bat into air instead of hitting the ball. Hair treatment would of course, have to be social, since it isn't natural. You've already been informed of this.
quote: While Africans have been treating their hair for thousands of years, that does not change the fact that the social circumstances and culture of America that caused African American straight hairstyles had little to nothing to do with ancient Egypt or even Africa directly.
You are approaching this issue with too much emotion, which is why you are not seeing the point I'm making. You are too bogged down with "hair styles" themselves, that, to repeat, you've lost sight of the bigger picture: treatment of hair by Afro-females being something that goes back thousands and thousands of years
You are not seeing the fundamental social generality of hair treatment.
quote: Trying to deny that the society and culture of America has primarily been European dominated and oriented with Africans and their culture being downplayed and oppressed within it is simply nonsense.
You are misinformed. I made no issue, one way or the other, of the influence American social relations on hair styles, you did. That's what I've been trying to get you away from, and see this instead:
Whatever the circumstances that influenced Afro-American female hair treatment styles, it remains a fact that it is part of a long tradition of hair treatment, which goes back thousands of years, in Africa.
So, the very act of Afro-American females treating their hair, should not be anomalous. Someone like cassiterides takes issue with Afro-women's hair treatment, by saying that it is not their "natural" hair state. Well, what hair treatment is natural?
Going by that reasoning, even European females should be condescended to, as they treat their hairs all the time.
Someone like cassiterides doesn't go, "Euro-females curl up their hair fibers"--which is not the natural state of their hair; therefore, they must necessarily be trying to emulate "curly haired" people, when they do that--in any shape or form.
Instead, we hear whining about Afro-women emulating Euro-women for wanting to "straighten their hair fibers".
Let me repeat: Any hair treatment amounts to altering the natural state of hair, or to put in another way: Any hairstyle that is not natural, is a hair treatment. This is the broad point about hair treatment, that I'm trying to open your eyes to.
BTW, you are on notice for evading the call to tell me whether you can definitively establish that the AE female figurine is wearing natural hair or a wig.
When someone evades, it tells me that they are afraid of being vulnerable.
Explorer the point I am making is that African Americans are not doing their hair to reflect an African hair style or African tradition of hair management. They are not. The history of hair treatment in the United States is tied to the desire for some to adopt white hair texture as "good hair".
So, lets stick to those points.
Hair straightening products in the United States were created explicitly for black people to have "good hair". This is stated by those who created and used those products. Please show me where ancient Egyptians or even Africans promoted straight hair as "good hair". Please show me where ancient Egyptians or Africans ever used chemicals or other products to create a straight hair texture that they already did not have naturally. Weaving things into your hair and all other sorts of things is not equivalent to processing and chemically treating your hair to make it straight when it is not your natural hair texture. That is the point. No matter if ancient Egyptians wore weaves or wigs, they were not promoting "straight hair" or styles of hair that were non African. Those wigs and weaves were generally simply more elaborate styles of African hair textures.
Hair straightening and chemical processing of hair for African American women is strictly a phenomenon that is a little over 100 years old and has absolutely nothing to do with ancient Egypt or Africa.
Case in point. The wigs worn by African Americans reflect a European hair texture and style. Please show me the wigs from Ancient Egypt that reflect a European style of hair.
So by the logic you are using, because Africans invented hair alteration and treatment, the reason for blacks altering and treating their hair is simply an evolution of African cultural practice and the fact that they want hair textures and styles that are not natural is simply a coincidence. Wrong!
And no, I never was arguing that Africans didn't invent hair styling. Even white hair styles first occurred on blacks. The point I was making is that African American women are subconsciously and consciously trying to adopt European hair textures and styles because of the history and culture of America which has absolutely nothing to do with African traditions or culture. And that was primarily a response to Jari.
So you and I are not even talking about the same thing really.
And the reason most African American women don't view this as "looking white" is because they were indoctrinated at a young age. Since it was their mothers, older sisters and other relatives who started straightening their hair and because having some family member doing your hair is a bonding ritual, most African American women feel straightening your hair is simply something normal and natural for African American women. But it is not.
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M.:
The ancient Egyptians wore wigs and weaves. And they were not second/third class citizens in a foreign land subjected to abuse and mistreatment by a larger society of non black people with different standards of beauty that were against natural African beauty.
Precisely.
Great point Dough, I can agree. You don't have to be a second to third class citizen to change your hair up to the style of others.
So, to know why someone would choose a hairstyle you'd have to know the individual. Certainly, a hairstyle similar to people of higher status might mean they wish to emulate the people of higher status, at least, in a social or public setting.
Posted by Ogbenga (Member # 15917) on :
You're one sck puppy. But you don't hear me though.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
So it isn't that Africans cannot and do not have a variety of hairstyles to begin with. I am in total agreement. My point is that in America they have adopted a destructive process for treating their hair which has everything to do with American culture and society being dominated by Europe and absolutely nothing to do with Africa or anywhere else in the black diaspora. Otherwise they wouldn't be resorting to such drastic measures to look "beautiful". I believe the best styles of hair are those that match your natural hair texture. And if African Americans adopted some ancient African hair practices (which are natural) I would be happy and the hair would be too. But at this point most African American women don't know how to treat their natural hair and hence rely on chemicals and wigs because that is what they know (and what is sold to them).
You are still too emotionally preoccupied to logically read my comments for what they are, and so, you've filled the void by convincing yourself of things said that are not really there.
Remember, you approached my comment, and so, you have to be the one to stay within the frame of reference of what I'm saying; not I to you. And what I'm saying, is that your fixation with why Afro-American females straighten their hair doesn't matter to me, because 1) Afro-American females treating their hair, regardless of what style it is, is in keeping with antiquated African tradition of treating hair, so that hairstyle is turned from one state to another, and 2) Euro-women treat their hair as well, changing it from one state to another; therefore, I take no issue with Afro-American females doing it, as I take no issue with Euro-women, or any women around the globe, doing it.
I've already made myself pretty clear on this point(s) in the last post, and I'm confident any reasonable reader will have gotten the idea the first time around. Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M.:
The ancient Egyptians wore wigs and weaves. And they were not second/third class citizens in a foreign land subjected to abuse and mistreatment by a larger society of non black people with different standards of beauty that were against natural African beauty.
Correct.
Great point Dough, I can agree. You don't have to be a second to third class citizen to change your hair up to the style of others.
So, to know why someone would choose a hairstyle you'd have to know the individual. Certainly, a hairstyle similar to people of higher status might mean they wish to emulate the people of higher status, at least, in a social or public setting.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Doug,
You are still too emotionally preoccupied to logically read my comments for what they are, and so, you've filled the void by convincing yourself of things said that are not really there.
Remember, you approached my comment, and so, you have to be the one to stay within the frame of reference of what I'm saying; not I to you. And what I'm saying, is that your fixation with why Afro-American females straighten their hair doesn't matter to me, because 1) Afro-American females treating their hair, regardless of what style it is, is in keeping with antiquated African tradition of treating hair, so that hairstyle is turned from one state to another, and 2) Euro-women treat their hair as well, changing it from one state to another; therefore, I take no issue with Afro-American females doing it, as I take no issue with Euro-women, or any women around the globe, doing it.
I've already made myself pretty clear on this point(s) in the last post, and I'm confident any reasonable reader will have gotten the idea the first time around.
This isn't about emotion. I am responding to this:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Your irrelevant babble has proven nothing.
1) Prove that Majority of AA women want to look white.
2) AA have lived around Europeans for hundreds of years and you expect AA to be the same as when we were in Africa, ignoring the fact that AA have influenced Europeans but I doubt you would claim European Americans are self haters because they don't go around speaking Irish, Welsh and Italian and speaking Proper English.
You are trying to defend Jari but his point is invalid. African American hair fashion is directly and overtly influenced by European hair fashion. There is no way around it. Anyone who would claim that the popular hairstyles of African Americans over the last hundred years is not driven by European dominated culture and fashion is simply lying through their teeth.
I don't know why some people would even try to argue the point. It doesn't matter if Africans invented cosmetics, clothes or hair dressing. The point is still the same. Europeans dominate the hair and fashion industry and it is those styles that African Americans are emulating. So I don't know what on earth you are talking about.
I totally agree that African Americans are Africans and have creativity and ingenuity as Africans. Likewise, there is no argument from me about Africans in Africa and blacks in the diaspora having widely varying ways of treating their hair. But, most of those treatments are within a social and cultural framework specific to each group. American society and culture is dominated by Europe. Hence, the hairstyles and fashions are driven by them as well. Africa has noting to do with why African Americans treat their hair the way they do. That is simply a fact.
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This isn't about emotion. I am responding to this:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Your irrelevant babble has proven nothing.
1) Prove that Majority of AA women want to look white.
2) AA have lived around Europeans for hundreds of years and you expect AA to be the same as when we were in Africa, ignoring the fact that AA have influenced Europeans but I doubt you would claim European Americans are self haters because they don't go around speaking Irish, Welsh and Italian and speaking Proper English.
You are trying to defend Jari but his point is invalid.
LOL. You are responding to my comment for what somebody else, Jari, said. That makes sense to you?
Two: My post could not have been defending Jari's post, as it was made before your back and forth bickering with Jari.
You've just reinforced the observation that you are too emotional to understand what I'm saying with a level-head. Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
This isn't about emotion. I am responding to this:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Your irrelevant babble has proven nothing.
1) Prove that Majority of AA women want to look white.
2) AA have lived around Europeans for hundreds of years and you expect AA to be the same as when we were in Africa, ignoring the fact that AA have influenced Europeans but I doubt you would claim European Americans are self haters because they don't go around speaking Irish, Welsh and Italian and speaking Proper English.
You are trying to defend Jari but his point is invalid.
LOL. You are responding to my comment for what somebody else, Jari, said. That makes sense to you?
Two: My post could not have been defending Jari's post, as it was made before your back and forth bickering with Jari.
You've just reinforced the observation that you are too emotional to understand what I'm saying with a level-head.
Wow. This is really going beyond insane. I posted my same point of view to this thread before you even entered. So how on earth are you going to say that you started this? My point of view has been this way on this board all along. There is nothing emotional about it. But some people have problems with facts.
Ironically enough, I actually had the same point of view about Egypt and African American hair a few years ago. But after understanding more about African American history and the hair and cosmetic industry, I see things differently.
So again, to reiterate, African American hair styles are by and large, but not totally, derived from European fashion and style not African fashion and style because of historic racism and the fact that American society and culture are dominated by Europeans. Period.
Jari disagreed with this and that is what I was responding to. You then commented about it as well but again, my point is not about how ancient Egyptian society and culture treated their hair, it is about African American people within a larger culture dominated by Europeans. Those are two different peoples, cultures, social contexts and histories all together and you have to look at each on their own accord to understand them.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
You've posted the same point of view as I, the one you've been misreading and lamenting about just a few posts ago, and which you confused with Jari's comment?
Dude, you've got some serious comprehending issues. I said your claim that "I'm defending Jari" is just bogus, for reasons stated above. Now go read and stop making a fool of yourself. Posted by Ogbenga (Member # 15917) on :
Eh, whatever, do you...but don't involve me.
Wierdo. Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: You've posted the same point of view as I, the one you've been misreading and lamenting about just a few posts ago, and which you confused with Jari's comment?
Dude, you've got some serious comprehending issues. I said your claim that "I'm defending Jari" is just bogus, for reasons stated above. Now go read and stop making a fool of yourself.
The fact is that African Americans using lye, chemicals and other treatments including hot combs to straighten their hair is not something that came from ancient Egypt.
And when I say straight, I mean straight. I don't mean micro braids. So, how on earth does the practice of the ancient Egyptians wearing elaborate braided hairstyles equate to using chemicals and other processes to straighten hair that is not naturally straight.
I do not agree that the two are equivalent.
They are not equivalent aesthetically because ancient Egyptian hairstyles and wigs largely reflected their natural hair styles and textures: braids and curls. Whereas African American hairstyles and wigs largely reflect a European hair style and texture.
They are also not equivalent socially or culturally because ancient Egyptians were operating within an African centered culture and society practicing African traditions and beliefs. African Americans are operating in a European culture and society that practices European traditions and beliefs.
I cannot see how anyone could pretend that these two are equivalent when they aren't.
Sorry I don't buy it, especially when you look at the documented history of African Americans claiming straight hair, like European hair, is "good hair". It is especially so since you don't see that belief in any African culture where the people primarily have naturally tight curly hair, like Western Africa. So the idea that this came from Africa is simply incorrect. So where did it come from then? Well obviously if America is largely European dominated and Europeans have straight hair and promote such hair in fashion and cosmetics, then obviously this is where it originates and nowhere else.
So, to skip all the strawmen about emotion, lets get down to facts, where do African Americans get their preference for straight hair and hairstyles? And if they did not come from European culture then where in Africa did straight hair and hairstyles originate that African Americans consciously drew their influences from?
I am waiting for anyone who supports such a view to provide the evidence for it, because I see none. Whereas I can provide tons of evidence supporting African Americans wanting to adopt European white beauty standards.
While they may use animal fats and herbs to enhance and maintain the hair, it is still a natural hair texture and style. That does not equate to this, which is unnatural and only exists due to chemical processes and treatments to force the hair into an unnatural texture, which the Africans above did not have to go through: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:AMHS-10.jpg Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
A fact cannot be a strawman. You've demonstrated to the world just now, that you indeed never approached my post with a level-head.
You justified your non-sequitur replies to me, by pointing to Jari's post, which you accuse me of "defending". Problem is 1) my message is different from Jari's [and your's], and 2) the post (mine) that prompted your reply to me, precedes your bickering with Jari.
Perhaps you need a rest. Posted by element (Member # 19569) on :
I created this thread & tried to be ambiguous because this is a taboo subject.
A hairstyle can be a uniform & some hairstyles can also be considered revolutionary or political.
For example the afro is not unique but the black power movement politicized it as the people redefined themselves within the civil rights framework.eg
The most political hairstyle of today is dreads or natural & the opponent is the family not just the system.
Doug m has highlighted this & noted the political, social mobilty connection..
I just want to ilustrate something & flip this away from the usa ..I'll start with Garveyism.
Marcus garvey was a jamaican & key figure & founding father of panafricanism.. He was also very familiar with african heritage.. He launched a UNIA newspaper in the usa around 1918 & banned any advertising of skin lightners & hair straighteners.
The timeline is very significant..
I'm of jamiacan heritage & have dreads. Now dreadlocks is not unique to my hair type but the political,revolutionary act of wearing dreads is unique to afro-caribbean people.
The evolution of dreadlocks occurred when slaves in the caribbean revolted against the slavemaster & ran away to the hills & mountains surviving off the land..
Ital & Livity are two common phrases ..
Ital = natural Livity = expression ,affirmation of culture.
They are the collective term for living a natural existence incorparating foods, clothing, products etc.
The rasta or rastafari movement emerged much later with spiritual concepts.
Many black parents & christians still feel uncomfortable around dreadlocks. Any non african who wears dreads is taking on those attributes.
My grandparents & parents have told me many stories about how they were forbidden to talk to rasta because rasta had a revolutionary ideas at odds with the social circumstances & religion.
Bi- racial children with identity issues in the uk are more likely to wear dreads as an assertion of blackness.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: A fact cannot be a strawman. You've demonstrated to the world just now, that you indeed never approached my post with a level-head.
You justified your non-sequitur replies to me, by pointing to Jari's post, which you accuse me of "defending". Problem is 1) my message is different from Jari's [and your's], and 2) the post (mine) that prompted your reply to me, precedes your bickering with Jari.
Perhaps you need a rest.
No, your point was the same as Jari's.
Which is that African American hairstyles are not a direct result of European cultural domination and a desire to look white. Which is exactly what I am saying. But I am not Casserites, so I am not promoting a racist agenda.
You and Jari disagree with the fundamental point above, even if you aren't exactly the same on the way you disagree. The point is you both disagree with the point above.
But neither of you have provided any facts to support that disagreement. I provide facts from an American historical context and culture, you provide ancient Egyptian historical culture and context. Which means to me you are missing the point. African Americans are not ancient Egyptians and America is not Egypt. The culture is European and the society is dominated by Europeans, so you cannot explain such hairstyles by mere fact of Egyptian hair practices being more ancient. It has nothing to do with describing the reasons for African Americans wearing their hair the way they do, which is precisely the point of the thread. I mean if you aren't on the topic of the thread which is the subliminal and overt ways European culture has caused African American women to adopt European beauty standards, then what are you talking about?
Come on man, this is pretty straight forward.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Interesting. Care to show me something I said, how that copies something Jari said. Actual citations?
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Interesting. Care to show me something I said, how that copies something Jari said. Actual citations?
Which Jari then jumped on and quoted as being the "most intelligent" post in the thread.
My point is that your statements aren't even correct, because ancient Egyptians were not putting lye and dangerous chemicals on their hair to achieve any of the looks that they did. Therefore, just because ancient Egyptians treated their hair, does not make it equivalent to what African Americans are doing. What African Americans are doing is going to extreme lengths, including damaging and destroying their hair, in order to make it have a texture and style that is not natural. You cannot show me any such equivalent from ancient Egypt, primarily because 1) they did not try to destroy their hair with toxic chemicals and 2) their hair styles and textures were natural and well within a normal variation of African hairstyles and textures.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
You are simply posting a link, not actual citations. You are proving by the day, that you have loose screws in your comprehension ability.
Jari agreeing with my message is not the same as me defending Jari's message. You dig? Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: You are simply posting a link, not actual citations. You are proving by the day, that you have loose screws in your comprehension ability.
Jari agreeing with my message is not the same as me defending Jari's message. You dig?
Directly or indirectly you are indeed defending him because you both are making the same argument. The point being that African American women aren't trying to look white in their hair styles, which is the subject of the thread. I disagree with both of you and neither of you have proven me wrong.
For example
quote:The thing is, you are getting too caught up on specific individual hair treatment styles, and drawing lessons about the impact of American social relations on Black American women based on this, that you've lost sight of the bigger picture, about treatment of hair by Afro-females being something that goes back thousands and thousands of years, which you evidently reinforce above, by saying "it isn't the point".
How is that when the topic of the thread is about the social and cultural impact of European domination on African Americans and their definition of beauty as defined in their hair styles? And since America isn't thousands of years old, what happened thousands of years before America existed as a European dominated colonial society is irrelevant.
quote: It's precisely because that point did not cross the minds of posters bickering back and forth, that it was necessary to bring it to the fore.
Whenever hair is treated, that by logic, means that it is being turned into a state that wasn't the original one. Straightening one's hair would not be different.
Wrong because putting animal fat on your hair to protect it as a "treatment" is not equivalent to putting lye and industrial chemical solutions on it to make it straight. Please show me where the ancient Egyptians ever did this to their hair.
quote: White females treat their hair all the time, which is apparently not the same state as their natural one, but not many bicker about that.
White women already have generally straight hair. Therefore their usage of treatments to create various styles of hair is not the same as those applied by African Americans.
quote: You are saying that Black American females treat their hair in a certain way that Africans didn't; well, that doesn't really matter. It is still part of the long tradition of treating hair. Heck, Africans don't all treat their hair the same way either.
Of course it does because we are talking about the social and cultural impact of African Americans being in a European society and how it has impacted the treatment of their hair and definitions of beauty.
As hammer would ask, I think this appropriately applies to you: How do you get up and dress yourself?
Did you not get this memo?
You justified your non-sequitur replies to me, by pointing to Jari's post, which you accuse me of "defending". Problem is 1) my message is different from Jari's [and your's], and 2) the post (mine) that prompted your reply to me, precedes your bickering with Jari.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
So, you've edited your post after I made mine just moments ago, instead of hiding behind accusations you cannot prove.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: How is that when the topic of the thread is about the social and cultural impact of European domination on African Americans and their definition of beauty as defined in their hair styles?
Simple. My message was saying that the topic, and posts thereafter, were handling the issue from the wrong angle.
quote: Wrong because putting animal fat on your hair to protect it as a "treatment" is not equivalent to putting lye and grease cutting solution on it to make it straight. Please show me where the ancient Egyptians ever did this to their hair.
Your context of "treatment" is totally out of sync with mine. Another testament to your failure to give due attention to my message. Remember the bit about "changing the hair from one state to another", eh?
You are talking about medicine, I'm talking about transforming hair from one style to another for cosmetic appeal.
quote: White women already have generally straight hair. Therefore their usage of treatments to create various styles of hair is not the same as those applied by African Americans.
When white women do their hair into distinctive styles that is different from its original free-flowing state, they are treating it. When they go to saloons and have their hair strands curled up, you bet ya, they are treating their hair. Your failure to see this, shows your bias approach to the subject. Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: So, you've edited your post after I made mine just moments ago, instead of hiding behind accusations you cannot prove.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: How is that when the topic of the thread is about the social and cultural impact of European domination on African Americans and their definition of beauty as defined in their hair styles?
Simple. My message was saying that the topic, and posts thereafter, were handling the issue from the wrong angle.
quote: Wrong because putting animal fat on your hair to protect it as a "treatment" is not equivalent to putting lye and grease cutting solution on it to make it straight. Please show me where the ancient Egyptians ever did this to their hair.
Your context of "treatment" is totally out of sync with mine. Another testament to your failure to give due attention to my message. Remember the bit about "changing the hair from one state to another", eh?
How so when it is the subject of the thread?
quote: You are talking about medicine, I'm talking about transforming hair from one style to another for cosmetic appeal.
And the subject of the thread is whether African Americans are adopting European beauty standards as a form of psychological hatred of themselves and their natural hair, by not using natural methods for styling and treating their hair. So if you aren't addressing the subject of the thread then what is the point? I am addressing the subject of the thread which is a valid question.
quote:
quote: White women already have generally straight hair. Therefore their usage of treatments to create various styles of hair is not the same as those applied by African Americans.
When white women do their hair into distinctive styles that is different from its original free-flowing state, they are treating it. When they go to saloons and have their hair strands curled up, you bet ya, they are treating their hair. Your failure to see this, shows your bias approach to the subject.
White women already have straight hair. They do not have to apply toxic chemicals to straighten their hair like African Americans. And ancient Egyptians nor Africans did this either. So I disagree for the fundamental fact that applying toxic chemicals to the hair to make it straight, when it is not already straight or even near straight, is not simply "a treatment" like even using a hot curler. Ancient Greeks and other Europeans had similar styles of hair without hot curlers, but their hair was already straight. Applying a treatment to change the color, hold a curl or style is not the same as applying toxic chemicals to make the hair straight. So trying to equate them as being equally "treatment" is dishonest. Using lyes and chemical relaxers, which is basically industrial chemical solvents, is not an ancient form of hair treatment. It is something invented in America a little over 100 years ago, specifically for African Americans to achieve a white European hair texture. Please show me the facts that this is not the case.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Your odd obsession of saying Ancient Egyptians or Africans requiring to have the same styles as personalities in your photo spams is puzzling. Hair treatment or transformation is hair treatment/transformation regardless of style.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Your odd obsession of saying Ancient Egyptians or Africans requiring to have the same styles as personalities in your photo spams is puzzling.
You said it yourself:
quote: So, when "Black" females straighten their own natural hair, they are merely following a long tradition of treating hair. It is no more anomalous than European females treating their hair and stylizing it, including braiding it.
And the point is that it isn't simply a long tradition of treating hair as using lye and chemical solvents is not what the ancient Egyptians used as hair treatment. They used natural processes and compounds to achieve their looks which reflected their natural hair texture and style. So please show me where the ancient Egyptians had hairstyles that did not match what hair texture they already had naturally. Most of their wigs are either kinky or braided. That is simply not the same as the kind of chemical "treatments" done by African Americans to achieve a hair texture and style that is not natural to them.
And the question is why are they doing this? It certainly has everything to do with Europe and little to nothing to do with Africa.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
How so when it is the subject of the thread?
In the original post that prompted your reply to me, and the numerous reiteration of that same message thereafter to get you to understand it, that's how. Revisit them.
quote:
White women already have straight hair. They do not have to apply toxic chemicals to straighten their hair like African Americans. And ancient Egyptians nor Africans did this either. So I disagree for the fundamental fact that applying toxic chemicals to the hair to make it straight, when it is not already straight or even near straight, is not simply "a treatment" like even using a hot curler. Ancient Greeks and other Europeans had similar styles of hair without hot curlers, but their hair was already straight. Applying a treatment to change the color, hold a curl or style is not the same as applying toxic chemicals to make the hair straight. So trying to equate them as being equally "treatment" is dishonest. Using lyes and chemical relaxers, which is basically industrial chemical solvents, is not an ancient form of hair treatment. It is something invented in America a little over 100 years ago, specifically for African Americans to achieve a white European hair texture. Please show me the facts that this is not the case.
So your beef is with applying some kind of a chemical to treat hair or style it? LOL, and you imagine Euro-women don't use hair chemicals?
And how would you know if the ancients in Africa used chemicals or not on their hair? People in Africa to this day, use Henna to die their hair.
Are you a hair stylist, and I don't mean a barber? LOL
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: You said it yourself:
quote: So, when "Black" females straighten their own natural hair, they are merely following a long tradition of treating hair. It is no more anomalous than European females treating their hair and stylizing it, including braiding it.
I'm reading my post, and I don't see therein, anything about hair treatment requiring to adopt same styles seen in either AE or Africans, so as to be deemed "hair treatment".
I told you, you need a rest. Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
How so when it is the subject of the thread?
In the original post that prompted your reply to me, and the numerous reiteration of that same message thereafter to get you to understand it, that's how. Revisit them.
quote:
White women already have straight hair. They do not have to apply toxic chemicals to straighten their hair like African Americans. And ancient Egyptians nor Africans did this either. So I disagree for the fundamental fact that applying toxic chemicals to the hair to make it straight, when it is not already straight or even near straight, is not simply "a treatment" like even using a hot curler. Ancient Greeks and other Europeans had similar styles of hair without hot curlers, but their hair was already straight. Applying a treatment to change the color, hold a curl or style is not the same as applying toxic chemicals to make the hair straight. So trying to equate them as being equally "treatment" is dishonest. Using lyes and chemical relaxers, which is basically industrial chemical solvents, is not an ancient form of hair treatment. It is something invented in America a little over 100 years ago, specifically for African Americans to achieve a white European hair texture. Please show me the facts that this is not the case.
So your beef is with applying some kind of a chemical to treat hair or style it? LOL, and you imagine Euro-women don't use hair chemicals?
And how would you know if the ancients in Africa used chemicals or not on their hair? People in Africa to this day, use Henna to die their hair.
Are you a hair stylist, and I don't mean a barber? LOL
Lye is a toxic chemical used for African Americans to make their hair straight. Henna is a naturally occuring plant that has been used as a die for hair and other parts of the body.
One is natural one is not.
One was used in ancient Egypt one was not.
One is ancient and one is not.
One has been used by many cultures for beauty treatments, the other is almost exclusively for African Americans to make their hair straight.
They are not the same at all in any shape or form.
The fact that you are trying to make them the same and equivalent is the problem and the part I disagree with.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Your application of the word "fact" suggests you have no insight into this word: The connection/comparisons you ascribed to me is a fantasy.
And you have confirmed, that your beef is with the chemicals supposedly used in hair treatment.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
How so when it is the subject of the thread?
In the original post that prompted your reply to me, and the numerous reiteration of that same message thereafter to get you to understand it, that's how. Revisit them.
quote:
White women already have straight hair. They do not have to apply toxic chemicals to straighten their hair like African Americans. And ancient Egyptians nor Africans did this either. So I disagree for the fundamental fact that applying toxic chemicals to the hair to make it straight, when it is not already straight or even near straight, is not simply "a treatment" like even using a hot curler. Ancient Greeks and other Europeans had similar styles of hair without hot curlers, but their hair was already straight. Applying a treatment to change the color, hold a curl or style is not the same as applying toxic chemicals to make the hair straight. So trying to equate them as being equally "treatment" is dishonest. Using lyes and chemical relaxers, which is basically industrial chemical solvents, is not an ancient form of hair treatment. It is something invented in America a little over 100 years ago, specifically for African Americans to achieve a white European hair texture. Please show me the facts that this is not the case.
So your beef is with applying some kind of a chemical to treat hair or style it? LOL, and you imagine Euro-women don't use hair chemicals?
And how would you know if the ancients in Africa used chemicals or not on their hair? People in Africa to this day, use Henna to die their hair.
Are you a hair stylist, and I don't mean a barber? LOL
Everything in nature is based on chemistry.
I am making the point that the treatments used by African Americans is unnatural and destructive to the hair.
I am making a distinction between the ancient Egyptian and African natural treatments to preserve, promote and protect the hair and enhance the texture versus chemical treatments which are unnatural, destructive and break down the hair and ultimately destroy it.
You are trying to equate the two which doesn't make absolutely any sense.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
This is just a replay of your last post, to which my reply above stands. Posted by element (Member # 19569) on :
@ Doug m you've posted many pre war images of women .Take note of the hairstyles of the successful male entertainers leading up to the late sixties..
eg Cab calloway,Duke ellington,Nat king cole ,Herbie hancock ,Jackie wilson ,chubby checker
It may be a fad but it could be something else if you consider the segregation laws.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Your application of the word "fact" suggests you have no insight into this word: The connection/comparisons you ascribed to me is a fantasy.
And you have confirmed, that your beef is with the chemicals supposedly used in hair treatment.
You introduced the comparison by posting the hair treatment practices of Ancient Egypt. Obviously you intended to promote a comparison between that of Ancient Egypt and modern African Americans. Otherwise you would not have mentioned it.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Your application of the word "fact" suggests you have no insight into this word: The connection/comparisons you ascribed to me is a fantasy.
And you have confirmed, that your beef is with the chemicals supposedly used in hair treatment.
You introduced the comparison by posting the hair treatment practices of Ancient Egypt. Obviously you intended to promote a comparison between that of Ancient Egypt and modern African Americans. Otherwise you would not have mentioned it.
I have a question, I wonder about. Why was the majority of your pictures you've posted of Asians?
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by element: @ Doug m you've posted many pre war images of women .Take note of the hairstyles of the successful male entertainers leading up to the late sixties..
eg Cab calloway,Duke ellington,Nat king cole ,Herbie hancock ,Jackie wilson ,chubby checker
It may be a fad but it could be something else if you consider the segregation laws.
Yes, all of it goes back to Europeans promoting their view of being "civilized" and "advanced" as being purely and strictly white and "like white", which they enforced and pushed down the throats of everyone else who was non white.
And so to this day that is the root of the problem, figuratively and literally.
And it causes black women to knowingly and/or unknowingly pass on self hate to their children:
And is reinforced through the fashion, entertainment and beauty industry:
You introduced the comparison by posting the hair treatment practices of Ancient Egypt. Obviously you intended to promote a comparison between that of Ancient Egypt and modern African Americans. Otherwise you would not have mentioned it.
You imagined said comparison, because your judgement has severely been impaired by emotion. I've made a note of this for some time now.
And what's this "promotion of a comparison between AE and AAs" that you keep "seeing". Is it the mentioning of Henna, as an example of chemical-use in hair treatment, to show just how ridiculous you were being, for fussing about chemical use in hair conditioning?
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
This is really stupid Africans didn't utilize hair chemicals because they didn't have that out, in the past. This is something that most women us now including Africans themselves, so I don't get the issue?
Chemical relaxer could have very well been invented without slavery, who knows.
African woman with a perm.-
Posted by madness ensues (Member # 15917) on :
^ That woman, despite her perm, may love herself more than you could ever know.
You people don't understand that many people don't think much.
You're judging regular people by your neurotic over-thinking patterns (which is fine, for intellectuals with a problem to solve).
That's why the sheer amount of talking you do doesn't correlate with the actual answers you find.
Simple people need simple solutions to simple problems. The answer is simply getting the right information into their minds, which runs on auto-pilot most of the time.
Posted by madness ensues (Member # 15917) on :
Once upon a time...women were ashamed of this:
But then came long this:
and this...
THEN EVERY MAN AND WOMAN CAUGHT AMNESIA and forgot that only Black people used to like their woman with a fat-laden ass Posted by madness ensues (Member # 15917) on :
With the same amount of media push, these could become the only type of hair women the world over want to have:
In most cases, it really doesn't have anything to do with self-hate. It's just group-think.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
You introduced the comparison by posting the hair treatment practices of Ancient Egypt. Obviously you intended to promote a comparison between that of Ancient Egypt and modern African Americans. Otherwise you would not have mentioned it.
You imagined said comparison, because your judgement has severely been impaired by emotion. I've made a note of this for some time now.
And what's this "promotion of a comparison between AE and AAs" that you keep "seeing". Is it the mentioning of Henna, as an example of chemical-use in hair treatment, to show just how ridiculous you were being, for fussing about chemical use in hair conditioning?
You mentioned Egypt as a primary example of hair treatment and processing by ancient Africans. And the reason was to point out by comparison that Africans were always using chemicals in some form to treat their hair. Otherwise, if it was not to promote a comparison by historical analogy, then what was the point of you introducing it as a support for your argument that Africans have been doing this all along?
You are executing faulty logic. If it is OK to use the Egyptians as an example in support of your argument, then it is by comparison and contrast with the case at hand which is the modern hair practices of African Americans. Therefore, it promotes comparison of the two.
All I am saying is that ancient Egyptian hair practices do not belong in this discussion. You yourself said that this discussion is looking at it the wrong way hence you introduced Egypt as a reason why we should look at this differently, hence introducing Egypt as a point of comparison. I feel that ancient Egypt has very little to do with the modern hair practices of African Americans because the original subject of this thread poses a valid question about the reasons for the development of and continuing practices of treating African peoples hair in America.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer: This is really stupid Africans didn't utilize hair chemicals because they didn't have that out, in the past. This is something that most women us now including Africans themselves, so I don't get the issue?
Chemical relaxer could have very well been invented without slavery, who knows.
African woman with a perm.-
The point is moot because hair relaxer exists within a specific social and cultural framework that did not exist in Africa: the need to make tight curly natural African hair look like white peoples long straight hair. Hence, claiming that Africans "would have invented it" without a desire to have a hair texture and hair styles that is not natural to Africans is almost impossible to imagine. What social or cultural conditions would have had to exist for Africans not to love an express themselves through their natural hair texture as they have always been doing? The only social and cultural forces which would cause this is immersion in and oppression by a culture that promotes white culture and society as the dominant culture and lifestyle over and above all others. Hair relaxers and perms exist because of the experience of Africans in America is a perfect example of exactly such social and cultural conditions necessary for such things to be created. Otherwise, hair relaxers and perms would have been created in Africa thousands of years ago, without whites but it wasn't, precisely because the social and cultural conditions did not exist for such things to be created.
Deny it all you want, but African Americans are simply trying to fit into a European oriented society and culture. It isn't African and trying to pretend otherwise is pure nonsense.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
And for all those who keep comparing ancient Africans and modern society, let me ask a question. If Africans invented hair styling, cosmetics and the use of chemicals (natural or otherwise) for the purposes of body decoration and beauty, then why do white Europeans dominate the beauty and cosmetic industry today? Most of their products use ideas, ingredients and resources that were/are obtained from black people to begin with. And why on earth does the minority (Europeans) promote their hair textures and styles over and above all others as the epitome of beauty? How on earth is that a fair comparison? There was no such thing as a global beauty industry 500 years ago let alone 4,000 years ago. You didn't have ads all over the place with white European models and fashion everywhere you looked. Africans and other blacks in the diaspora saw people like themselves who created, sold and distributed the ingredients and products and above all represented beauty without having European faces all over the place.
Yet some people still insist on trying to gloss over that big gap between Africa of the past and the world today. That is like saying black folks haven't gotten the short end of the stick and is a big reason for the current state of affairs in the world.
And as far as self hate is concerned, that image of the woman and her child was taken directly off of Loreals facebook page. Go look for yourself. How many products on their web site promote African hair texture, even though this is the largest hair and cosmetics company in the world, where Europeans and European hair texture is the minority of the worlds population? Are they selling cosmetics or are they promoting white Europeans and white European features and hair texture as the epitome of beauty? I think it is the latter. Who in the boardrooms and the labs of these companies what styles and hair treatments to promote? How many Africans are involved? So how does this reflect an African tradition, when the companies, boardrooms, fashion directors, fashion editors, modeling agencies and investors are almost all white Europeans?
Now when and if Africans decide to get up and make their own world dominating hair and cosmetics industry, then we can talk about who wants to look like who. But in reality, my point is that a global business specializing in beauty and cosmetics should promote all hair textures and styles, recognizing that everyone around the world is different. I doubt very seriously that Loreal or any other European cosmetic company cares about non European beauty standards.
Posted by element (Member # 19569) on :
It's agreed that everyone acknowledges the history & diversity of african hair styles. But other groups also have their own history of hair.
Adults can do whatever they wish with their hair but what about the children & teens? Many hair products are not supposed to be used on children under twelve.
I see many comments about what whites do so lets examine this further with children.
If you compare hair treatment & styles with others you also have to compare parenting, morality,nurturing.And its not favourable to blacks.
willow smith 11 yrs old.
If anyone sees a white child with lipstick ,make up or hair dye their would be moral outrage but chemical products created & used on african children as young as two years old gets a pass.
Hair treatments, wigs & weaves dont come cheap.where did the teens get their disposable income if it was an independant choice?
wigs & weaves can also enhance your beauty or attractivity. who are the children supposed to attract? what role does the father, parent, extended family play in their decisionmaking?How will the child behave when wigs,weaves relaxers expire ?
Theirs a powerful force underlying this.
Every group alters their hair but many have taken it to extreme levels.
.
African pride pandemic month .
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
Wise words, madnessEnsues, brutha
Amen.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by madness ensues: With the same amount of media push, these could become the only type of hair women the world over want to have:
In most cases, it really doesn't have anything to do with self-hate. It's just group-think.
Word! Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
You mentioned Egypt as a primary example of hair treatment and processing by ancient Africans. And the reason was to point out by comparison that Africans were always using chemicals in some form to treat their hair.
True: I pointed to ancient Egyptians as *an* example of the long tradition of hair treatment in Africa, as in transforming hair from one state to another, by manipulating hair strands.
Misinformed: Your interpretation, with saying "always using chemicals". These are your words. You like to make up things and then say you are arguing with somebody else. Not good.
quote: Otherwise, if it was not to promote a comparison by historical analogy, then what was the point of you introducing it as a support for your argument that Africans have been doing this all along?
You have a weird policy. You first decide to wrongly read a message, and then ask questions for clarification. It's like a "shooting-to-kill-first" policy, then ask questions.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: And for all those who keep comparing ancient Africans and modern society, let me ask a question. If Africans invented hair styling, cosmetics and the use of chemicals (natural or otherwise) for the purposes of body decoration and beauty, then why do white Europeans dominate the beauty and cosmetic industry today?
This is misguided thinking. It's like asking why do white Europeans have a dominant gun technology today, if it were invented by non-Europeans.
Instead you should be thinking like this: Gun technology used today, is an extension or outgrowth of an older invention.
Hence, one is not *comparing* earlier manifestations with newer ones, which would be insane. But the newer technology is fundamentally still in keeping with the older conception. This, btw, is a response to your misinformed impression that AE is being compared to modern hair fashion statements mano-a-mano.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
Yet you sat right here and tried to claim that it does.
[/QB]
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:You are trying to defend Jari but his point is invalid.
[/QB]
Doug M, you dirty little liar Post In Direct Quotes where I said Perming hair is an "African Tradition". Stop putting word into my mouth I said when Black women get Perms or wear weaves majority are not emulating white women. Or Trying to have their hair like white women.
Liar post where I said as such and stop trying to dirty my name because Explorer is man handling your ass.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Potentially of interest...
Mummy analysis finds that fat-based product held styles in place.
Jo Marchant
High-status ancient Egyptians, such as Queen Nodjmet, may have used fatty products to carry their hair style into the afterlife.
The ancient Egyptians styled their hair using a fat-based 'gel', an analysis of mummies has found. The researchers behind the study say that the Egyptians used the product to ensure that their style stayed in place in both life and death.
Natalie McCreesh, an archaeological scientist from the KNH Centre for Biomedical Egyptology at the University of Manchester, UK, and her colleagues studied hair samples taken from 18 mummies. The oldest is around 3,500 years old, but most were excavated from a cemetery in the Dakhleh Oasis in the Western Desert, and date from Greco-Roman times, around 2,300 years ago.
They include males and females ranging in age from 4 to 58 years old. Some were artificially mummified, whereas others were preserved naturally by the dry sand in which they were buried.
Microscopy using light and electrons revealed that nine of the mummies had hair coated in a mysterious fat-like substance. The researchers used gas chromatography–mass spectrometry to separate out the different molecules in the samples, and found that the coating contained biological long-chain fatty acids including palmitic acid and stearic acid. The results are published in the Journal of Archaeological Science1.
McCreesh thinks that the fatty coating is a styling product that was used to set hair in place. It was found on both natural and artificial mummies, so she believes that it was a beauty product during life as well as a key part of the mummification process.
The resins and embalming materials used to prepare the artificially mummified bodies were not found in the hair samples, suggesting that the hair was protected during embalming and then styled separately.
...
Read more here: Link Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
Is someone yet going to explain the following:
Almost all black people today have gone to the most extreme measures to appear as white as possible.
Black hair straighteners, or “relaxers” as they are now deviously called, have flooded the world market. They are as common in Africa as they are amongst black populations in Europe and America.
Everywhere you look, Black African females suddenly have straight or “good” hair, as they call it.
The black comedian Chris Rock has even made a film about the phenomenon, called “Good Hair” which revealed that his community spends $5,000 per treatment to get “good” (i.e. straight) hair and that the industry is worth $9 billion a year in America alone.
You hardly see a “natural” haired Black African person any more.
So if this isn't self-hate what is it? Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
Yet you sat right here and tried to claim that it does.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:You are trying to defend Jari but his point is invalid.
[/QB]
Doug M, you dirty little liar Post In Direct Quotes where I said Perming hair is an "African Tradition". Stop putting word into my mouth I said when Black women get Perms or wear weaves majority are not emulating white women. Or Trying to have their hair like white women.
Liar post where I said as such and stop trying to dirty my name because Explorer is man handling your ass. [/QB]
I asked you to show me where perming is an African tradition. And if it isn't then where did it come from?
I said it plain as day that perming is strictly a result of being in an European dominated society and culture which puts a premium on European beauty standards and hair texture.
You seem to feel that perming and hair straightening exist just because Africans are naturally creative and just happened to want to straighten their hair purely by coincidence and not because of any pressure from or domination by white society and culture.
I made it quite clear that this is precisely why perming exists and straight hair styles among African American women who do not naturally have straight hair.
I am still waiting for you to support your position as to why this is not the case, when the facts and evidence of history show this quite clearly.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: And for all those who keep comparing ancient Africans and modern society, let me ask a question. If Africans invented hair styling, cosmetics and the use of chemicals (natural or otherwise) for the purposes of body decoration and beauty, then why do white Europeans dominate the beauty and cosmetic industry today?
This is misguided thinking. It's like asking why do white Europeans have a dominant gun technology today, if it were invented by non-Europeans.
Instead you should be thinking like this: Gun technology used today, is an extension or outgrowth of an older invention.
Hence, one is not *comparing* earlier manifestations with newer ones, which would be insane. But the newer technology is fundamentally still in keeping with the older conception. This, btw, is a response to your misinformed impression that AE is being compared to modern hair fashion statements mano-a-mano.
The misguided part is that I already know that ancient Egyptians had hair styling treatments over 4000 years ago. It isn't the point about whether the technology or concept existed. The question is about how it is being used and why.
So even if guns existed 10 million years ago, that does not explain the reason why guns today are used to kill only certain people with certain kinds of bullets and whether that is a bad thing or not. Pontificating about the existence of said technology is irrelevant to the question.
But bottom line, I understand what you said, which is that knowing that the concept and practice of styling hair thousands of years ago, somehow invalidates the question of whether current African American hair styling practices are unduly influenced by Europeans, as "the wrong way of looking at it". I totally disagree.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
I already know that ancient Egyptians had hair styling treatments over 4000 years ago.
I question this.
quote: So even if guns existed 10 million years ago, that does not explain the reason why guns today are used to kill only certain people with certain kinds of bullets and whether that is a bad thing or not. Pontificating about the existence of said technology is irrelevant to the question.
This is silly. The use of the gun hasn't changed. It is used to kill, plain and simple. LOL
quote: I understand what you said, which is that knowing that the concept and practice of styling hair thousands of years ago
I doubt you do. I've had to repeat myself on this and you still get it wrong. Again: your extremist fixation on styles and who influence whom, is irrelevant to the point I'm making. Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
"straight-haired" Europeans don't have a copyright ownership to straightening hair strands any more than a "curly-haired" African has a copyright ownership to curling up hair strands.
European, African, or what have you; all are guilty about transforming their hair from its natural state to another one. All use chemicals, artificial or otherwise. Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
these people are more into hair them some bitches I know
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
I already know that ancient Egyptians had hair styling treatments over 4000 years ago.
I question this.
quote: So even if guns existed 10 million years ago, that does not explain the reason why guns today are used to kill only certain people with certain kinds of bullets and whether that is a bad thing or not. Pontificating about the existence of said technology is irrelevant to the question.
This is silly. The use of the gun hasn't changed. It is used to kill, plain and simple. LOL
quote: I understand what you said, which is that knowing that the concept and practice of styling hair thousands of years ago
I doubt you do. I've had to repeat myself on this and you still get it wrong. Again: your extremist fixation on styles and who influence whom, is irrelevant to the point I'm making.
The only thing you have proven at this point is the inability to address the subject:
Do black women straighten their hair because of the influence of white European culture and standards of beauty which has produced a psychology of identification with white culture and beauty over and above traditional African standards of beauty and culture?
My answer is yes.
Pure and simple.
Whether the Egyptians treated their hair or not 4000 years ago is irrelevant to the topic.
Just as whether or not the ancient Egyptians had war captives as slaves is irrelevant to the social, economic and psychological, social and economic impacts of the transatlantic slave trade on Africans in America and the diaspora. One totally has absolutely nothing to do with the other.
Just like the question of whether someone hit in the head with a brick today has brain damage has absolutely nothing to do with whether bricks were invented in Egypt 10,000 years ago or whether people hit each other with bricks then either. The latter does absolutely nothing to describe or understand the former.
The question is an issue of the current state of society and culture and the impact on the mindset of Africans diaspora, primarily as a result of recent historical events, not a question of ancient technologies and practices.
Period.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: "straight-haired" Europeans don't have a copyright ownership to straightening hair strands any more than a "curly-haired" African has a copyright ownership to curling up hair strands.
European, African, or what have you; all are guilty about transforming their hair from its natural state to another one. All use chemicals, artificial or otherwise.
OK. Then show me where the Africans made their hair straight when it was not already straight as part of traditional African culture or standards of beauty.
For your argument to make sense then you would have to show some African population with no contact with or exposure to Europe, who just so happened to have a culture that promoted hairstyles and hair textures like Europeans, even though the Africans did not naturally have such hair styles.
You have not shown this.
And more to the point, show me a West African culture that did this, since most African Americans came from West Africa, where kinky hair is more prevalent.
Fulani hair does not even hardly resemble the styles of hair and textures of Europeans. And most African Americans do not have that hair texture and the Fulani do not need chemicals to create that hair texture either.
And this is not unnaturally straight: It is braided with extensions.
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer: This is really stupid Africans didn't utilize hair chemicals because they didn't have that out, in the past. This is something that most women us now including Africans themselves, so I don't get the issue?
Chemical relaxer could have very well been invented without slavery, who knows.
African woman with a perm.-
The point is moot because hair relaxer exists within a specific social and cultural framework that did not exist in Africa: the need to make tight curly natural African hair look like white peoples long straight hair. Hence, claiming that Africans "would have invented it" without a desire to have a hair texture and hair styles that is not natural to Africans is almost impossible to imagine. What social or cultural conditions would have had to exist for Africans not to love an express themselves through their natural hair texture as they have always been doing? The only social and cultural forces which would cause this is immersion in and oppression by a culture that promotes white culture and society as the dominant culture and lifestyle over and above all others. Hair relaxers and perms exist because of the experience of Africans in America is a perfect example of exactly such social and cultural conditions necessary for such things to be created. Otherwise, hair relaxers and perms would have been created in Africa thousands of years ago, without whites but it wasn't, precisely because the social and cultural conditions did not exist for such things to be created.
Deny it all you want, but African Americans are simply trying to fit into a European oriented society and culture. It isn't African and trying to pretend otherwise is pure nonsense.
First of all everything that you said right now is bullshit second off these are just your opinions, you really don't have a clue rather Africans would have did stuff to straighten their hair or if they wouldn't, Hair perms wouldn't had been made in the past for the same reason that Africans didn't create guns back than and other advance technology there simply wasn't the means.
Women change their hairstyles up all the time and they are always looking for the new style.
There are Africans in Africa with straight hair so rather these Africans would have been influenced by other Africans who knows.
But since you think you know so much what is the reason for white women wanting to have curly hair and who influenced them to do so?
Like I said women all women utilize relaxers because they want a new hair style it has nothing to do with wanting to be white, and more to do with manageability and a new hair style.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Stop dodging the question and post in direct quotes where I said Perming hair is an "African Tradition" like you accused me of.
You accused me of saying this on the following dates..
18 October, 2011 09:00 PM
20 October, 2011 09:28 AM
20 October, 2011 10:28 AM
So man up and post where I made such a claim.
You have still to provide evidence that African American women who don't walt around with Afro's want to look like White Women or that African American women of today who Straighten their hair want to look white.
Your long winded irrelevent spamming is why I dropped out this debate, only a person with patience like Explorer can deal with all the long winded babble you spout.
So please post where I made such a claim and post evidence, Direct Evidence that MAJORITY OF AA women Want to emulate white women.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
Yet you sat right here and tried to claim that it does.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:You are trying to defend Jari but his point is invalid.
Doug M, you dirty little liar Post In Direct Quotes where I said Perming hair is an "African Tradition". Stop putting word into my mouth I said when Black women get Perms or wear weaves majority are not emulating white women. Or Trying to have their hair like white women.
Liar post where I said as such and stop trying to dirty my name because Explorer is man handling your ass. [/QB]
I asked you to show me where perming is an African tradition. And if it isn't then where did it come from?
I said it plain as day that perming is strictly a result of being in an European dominated society and culture which puts a premium on European beauty standards and hair texture.
You seem to feel that perming and hair straightening exist just because Africans are naturally creative and just happened to want to straighten their hair purely by coincidence and not because of any pressure from or domination by white society and culture.
I made it quite clear that this is precisely why perming exists and straight hair styles among African American women who do not naturally have straight hair.
I am still waiting for you to support your position as to why this is not the case, when the facts and evidence of history show this quite clearly. [/QB]
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Thankyou Brother, This is what Ive been trying to tell this fool. White Women get Cornrolls and white men get Dreads etc. Are they self haters, of Course not in Doug's World the Almighty White man can never be a self hater only the inferior black man.
When black women get their hair straight its because they want to try a new style, 9 times out of ten they don't want to Emulate white women.
Ill bet the little Faggot Cashitty is having a laugh at these Negros co signing his retarded racist assertions.
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
Like I said women all women utilize relaxers because they want a new hair style it has nothing to do with wanting to be white, and more to do with manageability and a new hair style.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
lioness,
Doug is the one who is fixated on women hairstyles, if there's anyone here guilty of that. He's the one trying to compare who's so and so style is copied by whom. Oh yeah, then there is cassiterides, who is no less obsessive.
My interjection here, is to bring some semblance of common sense to the issue, which was lacking then, and encourage thinking out of the box.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The only thing you have proven at this point is the inability to address the subject
This, the highlighted, is what you are doing now. In fact, I've *proven* that it is next to impossible discussing or even debating the issue, because you don't get the message of others. So what do you do? You make up stuff and then pretend you are arguing with someone.
I dunno, maybe this is why Jari inferred you were not an American.
quote: Do black women straighten their hair because of the influence of white European culture and standards of beauty which has produced a psychology of identification with white culture and beauty over and above traditional African standards of beauty and culture?
My answer is yes.
Pure and simple.
I keep telling you that this is immaterial to my message. What can I do to make you understand. Will speaking in Aramaic do the trick? Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
OK. Then show me where the Africans made their hair straight when it was not already straight as part of traditional African culture or standards of beauty.
I could answer this, but what's the point. I maintain that no one specific group has ownership to the act of straightening or curling hair strands, and Doug asks me the silly question above.
quote: For your argument to make sense
Oh, my message makes sense alright. To see this however, you have to *understand* the message first.
quote: And this is not unnaturally straight: It is braided with extensions.
This image wasn't intended to make the highlighted point. The article it was posted with, was to demonstrate that using chemicals to manipulate hair or aid in hairstyle is not foreign to African tradition. At one point, your focal point was to reject Afro-American women's hair treatment, on the grounds that they used chemicals.
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Thankyou Brother, This is what Ive been trying to tell this fool. White Women get Cornrolls and white men get Dreads etc. Are they self haters, of Course not in Doug's World the Almighty White man can never be a self hater only the inferior black man.
When black women get their hair straight its because they want to try a new style, 9 times out of ten they don't want to Emulate white women.
Ill bet the little Faggot Cashitty is having a laugh at these Negros co signing his retarded racist assertions.
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
Like I said women all women utilize relaxers because they want a new hair style it has nothing to do with wanting to be white, and more to do with manageability and a new hair style.
LOL no problem, I'm really a woman, but I just think its stupid to assume that black women that change there hairstyles some how want to be white, do we assume that white women that get ass implants want to be black women? Of course not because plump asses isn't a black woman thing, neither is straight hair, and in fact most of the human population have straight hair. Gosh I don't understand people especially men who make a big deal about what black women do with their hair.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Here's the hypocrisy that I see in Doug's and cassiteride's claims:
They take issue with Afro-women with otherwise "curly hair", straightening their hair strands, but they take no issue with "straight-haired" Euro-women curling their hair strands.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer: This is really stupid Africans didn't utilize hair chemicals because they didn't have that out, in the past. This is something that most women us now including Africans themselves, so I don't get the issue?
Chemical relaxer could have very well been invented without slavery, who knows.
African woman with a perm.-
The point is moot because hair relaxer exists within a specific social and cultural framework that did not exist in Africa: the need to make tight curly natural African hair look like white peoples long straight hair. Hence, claiming that Africans "would have invented it" without a desire to have a hair texture and hair styles that is not natural to Africans is almost impossible to imagine. What social or cultural conditions would have had to exist for Africans not to love an express themselves through their natural hair texture as they have always been doing? The only social and cultural forces which would cause this is immersion in and oppression by a culture that promotes white culture and society as the dominant culture and lifestyle over and above all others. Hair relaxers and perms exist because of the experience of Africans in America is a perfect example of exactly such social and cultural conditions necessary for such things to be created. Otherwise, hair relaxers and perms would have been created in Africa thousands of years ago, without whites but it wasn't, precisely because the social and cultural conditions did not exist for such things to be created.
Deny it all you want, but African Americans are simply trying to fit into a European oriented society and culture. It isn't African and trying to pretend otherwise is pure nonsense.
First of all everything that you said right now is bullshit second off these are just your opinions, you really don't have a clue rather Africans would have did stuff to straighten their hair or if they wouldn't, Hair perms wouldn't had been made in the past for the same reason that Africans didn't create guns back than and other advance technology there simply wasn't the means.
Women change their hairstyles up all the time and they are always looking for the new style.
There are Africans in Africa with straight hair so rather these Africans would have been influenced by other Africans who knows.
But since you think you know so much what is the reason for white women wanting to have curly hair and who influenced them to do so?
Like I said women all women utilize relaxers because they want a new hair style it has nothing to do with wanting to be white, and more to do with manageability and a new hair style.
The simple point is that the usage of relaxers and perms goes back to a time when black society was trying to fit in to the larger white society and culture.
And the proof of this is documented by the people themselves that created such things and the people that used them. It is also proven by the fact that the styles they chose were the same as those being worn by whites. That didn't just happen for no reason other than blacks wanted to fit in with the larger white society and culture around them, which historically had imposed itself on them and their definitions and standards of beauty as well. The fact that some people on this board would try and deny these simple facts of history are beyond logical and pathetic. I take no pride in trying to distort the past and painting a reality that is fake, just as fake as the hair many black women are wearing on their heads.
I don't have to pretend otherwise in order to make you feel good about reality for what it is.
The fact that you think you are defending black women by distorting history and outright lying is simply a travesty of intelligent conversation.
They wear their hair the way they do because that is what white folks told them is popular because most of the styles they wear are primarily white European hairstyles and textures.
And proof of that is as simple as looking at the products sold by Loreal and all the other white European owned and dominated cosmetic and hair products, which do not make African textured hair styles or promote them if they have them at all. Since black people don't control or own such companies, their history and culture has absolutely no bearing on the styles and trends promoted by them as those styles and trends are based on European tastes and styles. Pure and simple.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Stop dodging the question and post in direct quotes where I said Perming hair is an "African Tradition" like you accused me of.
You accused me of saying this on the following dates..
18 October, 2011 09:00 PM
20 October, 2011 09:28 AM
20 October, 2011 10:28 AM
So man up and post where I made such a claim.
You have still to provide evidence that African American women who don't walt around with Afro's want to look like White Women or that African American women of today who Straighten their hair want to look white.
Your long winded irrelevent spamming is why I dropped out this debate, only a person with patience like Explorer can deal with all the long winded babble you spout.
So please post where I made such a claim and post evidence, Direct Evidence that MAJORITY OF AA women Want to emulate white women.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
Yet you sat right here and tried to claim that it does.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:You are trying to defend Jari but his point is invalid.
Doug M, you dirty little liar Post In Direct Quotes where I said Perming hair is an "African Tradition". Stop putting word into my mouth I said when Black women get Perms or wear weaves majority are not emulating white women. Or Trying to have their hair like white women.
Liar post where I said as such and stop trying to dirty my name because Explorer is man handling your ass.
I asked you to show me where perming is an African tradition. And if it isn't then where did it come from?
I said it plain as day that perming is strictly a result of being in an European dominated society and culture which puts a premium on European beauty standards and hair texture.
You seem to feel that perming and hair straightening exist just because Africans are naturally creative and just happened to want to straighten their hair purely by coincidence and not because of any pressure from or domination by white society and culture.
I made it quite clear that this is precisely why perming exists and straight hair styles among African American women who do not naturally have straight hair.
I am still waiting for you to support your position as to why this is not the case, when the facts and evidence of history show this quite clearly. [/QB]
[/QB]
Jari, what is your argument? You said that black women are not straightening their hair because they want to look white.
OK. Why are they doing it?
And yes, I believe they are doing it because they want to look white whether they know it or not. They are adopting trends, styles and fashions that are created, perpetuated by and sold by white European companies and based on white European hair styles, fashion and hair texture. Therefore, there is no other way they could be trying to look except white because that is where the styles originate, that is who sells it and that is who they buy it from. And historically it is these same white Europeans who have dominated blacks culturally and socially in America and therefore caused blacks to want to adopt such styles to begin with.
You keep trying to get around this simple point by whining about me misrepresenting you, but the point is you are running away from facts.
If African Americans are not trying to appear white and practicing white traditions of hair styles and fashion, then this means the things they are doing reflect an African tradition. Therefore, perming and hair relaxers are part of an African tradition. But they aren't. Therefore, African Americans are not following African traditions in hair styles, they are trying to emulate whites. Period. There is no other answer.
You yourself acknowledge that perming and relaxers did not come from Africa. So at least we got that straight. So if it did not come from Africa then why was it invented in America? What is the reason for it? It certainly wasn't just because Africans felt creative and wanted to experiment. It was precisely because they were living in a white dominated culture and society that promoted white hair texture and beauty as the standard. There is no other reason.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Here's the hypocrisy that I see in Doug's and cassiteride's claims:
They take issue with Afro-women with otherwise "curly hair", straightening their hair strands, but they take no issue with "straight-haired" Euro-women curling their hair strands.
There are already plenty of threads on this forum that talk about whites adopting trends and styles from Africans in the diaspora.
But that is not what this thread is about. The fact that some people feel the need to lie or deny the historical reality of European domination of American society and culture and the influence of that domination on the habits of African Americans is silly. And there is no excuse for it.
I don't need to lie about history in order to debate Casserites or anyone else, racist or otherwise. And therefore don't lump me in with him. I want to understand the facts not make myself feel good with half truths and lies. Hypocrisy has nothing to do with it.
For example, we all know that African American culture has dominated much of American musical culture. I don't need to explain that to anyone and everyone will understand it. Therefore, a white soul singer is easily called out as trying to sound black or soulful, because blacks originated that style of music. But we aren't talking about music, we are talking about beauty and fashion and there is no denying the fact that white Europeans in America dominate the trends and styles of beauty and fashion and their tastes influence African Americans and therefore many African Americans are trying to look white whether they know it or not.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Thankyou Brother, This is what Ive been trying to tell this fool. White Women get Cornrolls and white men get Dreads etc. Are they self haters, of Course not in Doug's World the Almighty White man can never be a self hater only the inferior black man.
When black women get their hair straight its because they want to try a new style, 9 times out of ten they don't want to Emulate white women.
Ill bet the little Faggot Cashitty is having a laugh at these Negros co signing his retarded racist assertions.
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
Like I said women all women utilize relaxers because they want a new hair style it has nothing to do with wanting to be white, and more to do with manageability and a new hair style.
LOL no problem, I'm really a woman, but I just think its stupid to assume that black women that change there hairstyles some how want to be white, do we assume that white women that get ass implants want to be black women? Of course not because plump asses isn't a black woman thing, neither is straight hair, and in fact most of the human population have straight hair. Gosh I don't understand people especially men who make a big deal about what black women do with their hair.
The issue is this. In white European dominated American society and culture, black African hairstyles and beauty were never ever promoted as part of the mainstream. Number one because white Europeans aren't Africans and number two because of historical racism. Therefore, in order to maintain their natural hairstyles or adopt African ones, African Americans had to do it outside of the mainstream culture. But since so many African Americans wanted to fit into mainstream culture, they decided to adopt the styles and trends of the mainstream, which is white European culture and style. Plain and simple. Most of the major hair care and cosmetics companies do not make hair products for natural African hair styles nor do they promote them. Therefore, if that is what mostly is on the shelf on the store, then the African American really has no choice in the matter, if they want to follow the styles and trends promoted by the mainstream.
If they don't want to follow the mainstream they have to go and create their own products to promote natural African hair and styles because the white European dominated hair and beauty industry does not promote those styles. And unfortunately most African American women have chosen to follow the mainstream, which by definition means to follow the styles and trends set by whites. And because most of American society is dominated by white Europeans, most of the styles and trends in the society are white European.
Websites of top cosmetics and hair brands in US.
Show me where they promote African hair texture or styles:
And yes of course, there are hundreds upon hundreds of natural styles that African Women could be wearing. But because the major companies don't promote them, they won't be as prominent, unless African American women decide to choose those styles over those of the white dominated mainstream.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
And for those who have such a problem with this, I will use another analogy. People wearing suits and ties are promoting white European culture and looking white whether they know it or not, including myself. I do it because that is what you need to wear to get jobs and because most men's fashion magazines promote a suit and tie as the epitome of class and style. But who defines this? The truth is that most of this is directly because of the European domination of the fashion industry and the domination of Europeans in global economics over the last few hundred years.
So I have no problem admitting this simple fact. If Asians ruled the world, global fashion and economics, then we may be seeing people wearing Asian inspired dress as the epitome of style and beauty. Again, it is all about the society and culture you live in that determines your taste in fashion and beauty.
While we all want to believe in a pure egalitarian society where everyone can choose and be free to express their culture and style as they wish, the reality is far different. He who wins the wars and kicks the most ass makes the rules and that is just the way it is.
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer: This is really stupid Africans didn't utilize hair chemicals because they didn't have that out, in the past. This is something that most women us now including Africans themselves, so I don't get the issue?
Chemical relaxer could have very well been invented without slavery, who knows.
African woman with a perm.-
The point is moot because hair relaxer exists within a specific social and cultural framework that did not exist in Africa: the need to make tight curly natural African hair look like white peoples long straight hair. Hence, claiming that Africans "would have invented it" without a desire to have a hair texture and hair styles that is not natural to Africans is almost impossible to imagine. What social or cultural conditions would have had to exist for Africans not to love an express themselves through their natural hair texture as they have always been doing? The only social and cultural forces which would cause this is immersion in and oppression by a culture that promotes white culture and society as the dominant culture and lifestyle over and above all others. Hair relaxers and perms exist because of the experience of Africans in America is a perfect example of exactly such social and cultural conditions necessary for such things to be created. Otherwise, hair relaxers and perms would have been created in Africa thousands of years ago, without whites but it wasn't, precisely because the social and cultural conditions did not exist for such things to be created.
Deny it all you want, but African Americans are simply trying to fit into a European oriented society and culture. It isn't African and trying to pretend otherwise is pure nonsense.
First of all everything that you said right now is bullshit second off these are just your opinions, you really don't have a clue rather Africans would have did stuff to straighten their hair or if they wouldn't, Hair perms wouldn't had been made in the past for the same reason that Africans didn't create guns back than and other advance technology there simply wasn't the means.
Women change their hairstyles up all the time and they are always looking for the new style.
There are Africans in Africa with straight hair so rather these Africans would have been influenced by other Africans who knows.
But since you think you know so much what is the reason for white women wanting to have curly hair and who influenced them to do so?
Like I said women all women utilize relaxers because they want a new hair style it has nothing to do with wanting to be white, and more to do with manageability and a new hair style.
The simple point is that the usage of relaxers and perms goes back to a time when black society was trying to fit in to the larger white society and culture.
And the proof of this is documented by the people themselves that created such things and the people that used them. It is also proven by the fact that the styles they chose were the same as those being worn by whites. That didn't just happen for no reason other than blacks wanted to fit in with the larger white society and culture around them, which historically had imposed itself on them and their definitions and standards of beauty as well. The fact that some people on this board would try and deny these simple facts of history are beyond logical and pathetic. I take no pride in trying to distort the past and painting a reality that is fake, just as fake as the hair many black women are wearing on their heads.
I don't have to pretend otherwise in order to make you feel good about reality for what it is.
The fact that you think you are defending black women by distorting history and outright lying is simply a travesty of intelligent conversation.
They wear their hair the way they do because that is what white folks told them is popular because most of the styles they wear are primarily white European hairstyles and textures.
And proof of that is as simple as looking at the products sold by Loreal and all the other white European owned and dominated cosmetic and hair products, which do not make African textured hair styles or promote them if they have them at all. Since black people don't control or own such companies, their history and culture has absolutely no bearing on the styles and trends promoted by them as those styles and trends are based on European tastes and styles. Pure and simple.
Again more bullshit and personal opinions, the use of relaxers were used for manageability thats how it was in the past, that is how it is today, and I will say most of the hair styles that people were wearing weren't white hairstyles they were black, anyone who knows their history would know that black people have been setting the trends, these are all facts, blk people have made alot of stuff popular, you are the one over here being emotional like a female making long ass post about some damn relaxers and acting like you know what youre talking about when you are only making yourself look like an emotional jackass anyone can see this **** plain as day but you.
Please tell me what influenced these blk women to wear this hairstyle?
Did white women influence these black women?
LOL the facts are black women been creating their own distinct hairstyles that don't have a damn thing to do with white women, and its white women aswell as men who copy blacks for the most part, although there has been some cultural influence back and forth, no one is denying that, but black people here have created their own sense of style, and only an emotional idiot would deny that.
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Thankyou Brother, This is what Ive been trying to tell this fool. White Women get Cornrolls and white men get Dreads etc. Are they self haters, of Course not in Doug's World the Almighty White man can never be a self hater only the inferior black man.
When black women get their hair straight its because they want to try a new style, 9 times out of ten they don't want to Emulate white women.
Ill bet the little Faggot Cashitty is having a laugh at these Negros co signing his retarded racist assertions.
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
Like I said women all women utilize relaxers because they want a new hair style it has nothing to do with wanting to be white, and more to do with manageability and a new hair style.
LOL no problem, I'm really a woman, but I just think its stupid to assume that black women that change there hairstyles some how want to be white, do we assume that white women that get ass implants want to be black women? Of course not because plump asses isn't a black woman thing, neither is straight hair, and in fact most of the human population have straight hair. Gosh I don't understand people especially men who make a big deal about what black women do with their hair.
The issue is this. In white European dominated American society and culture, black African hairstyles and beauty were never ever promoted as part of the mainstream. Number one because white Europeans aren't Africans and number two because of historical racism. Therefore, in order to maintain their natural hairstyles or adopt African ones, African Americans had to do it outside of the mainstream culture. But since so many African Americans wanted to fit into mainstream culture, they decided to adopt the styles and trends of the mainstream, which is white European culture and style. Plain and simple. Most of the major hair care and cosmetics companies do not make hair products for natural African hair styles nor do they promote them. Therefore, if that is what mostly is on the shelf on the store, then the African American really has no choice in the matter, if they want to follow the styles and trends promoted by the mainstream.
If they don't want to follow the mainstream they have to go and create their own products to promote natural African hair and styles because the white European dominated hair and beauty industry does not promote those styles. And unfortunately most African American women have chosen to follow the mainstream, which by definition means to follow the styles and trends set by whites. And because most of American society is dominated by white Europeans, most of the styles and trends in the society are white European.
Websites of top cosmetics and hair brands in US.
Show me where they promote African hair texture or styles:
And yes of course, there are hundreds upon hundreds of natural styles that African Women could be wearing. But because the major companies don't promote them, they won't be as prominent, unless African American women decide to choose those styles over those of the white dominated mainstream.
Again you are acting like an emotional female, hairstyles and styles period evolve over time, black people have developed their own sense of style since they have been in America that isn't exactly white, neither are most of the hairstyles that AA women use are white hairstyles, and I can tell you since I'm actually a woman and you're not that most of the hair care products can be used by any race not just white women, so please come up with a better argument, because outside of manageability, you want find any black woman that utilizes relaxers because she wants to be white, neither will changing a simple hairstyle make her white, but again since you know it all, what is the reason for white women utilizing relaxers?
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
And straight hair wasn't invented by white people wtf? Neither is straight hair a white people thing so what is your point? None of the black hair styles utilized today are white, these are black hairstyles that blk people created, because again blacks have their own distinct style that they created that you are trying to lie and cover up.
Yes there has been influence, but for the most part it is blacks who set the trends..
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer: This is really stupid Africans didn't utilize hair chemicals because they didn't have that out, in the past. This is something that most women us now including Africans themselves, so I don't get the issue?
Chemical relaxer could have very well been invented without slavery, who knows.
African woman with a perm.-
The point is moot because hair relaxer exists within a specific social and cultural framework that did not exist in Africa: the need to make tight curly natural African hair look like white peoples long straight hair. Hence, claiming that Africans "would have invented it" without a desire to have a hair texture and hair styles that is not natural to Africans is almost impossible to imagine. What social or cultural conditions would have had to exist for Africans not to love an express themselves through their natural hair texture as they have always been doing? The only social and cultural forces which would cause this is immersion in and oppression by a culture that promotes white culture and society as the dominant culture and lifestyle over and above all others. Hair relaxers and perms exist because of the experience of Africans in America is a perfect example of exactly such social and cultural conditions necessary for such things to be created. Otherwise, hair relaxers and perms would have been created in Africa thousands of years ago, without whites but it wasn't, precisely because the social and cultural conditions did not exist for such things to be created.
Deny it all you want, but African Americans are simply trying to fit into a European oriented society and culture. It isn't African and trying to pretend otherwise is pure nonsense.
First of all everything that you said right now is bullshit second off these are just your opinions, you really don't have a clue rather Africans would have did stuff to straighten their hair or if they wouldn't, Hair perms wouldn't had been made in the past for the same reason that Africans didn't create guns back than and other advance technology there simply wasn't the means.
Women change their hairstyles up all the time and they are always looking for the new style.
There are Africans in Africa with straight hair so rather these Africans would have been influenced by other Africans who knows.
But since you think you know so much what is the reason for white women wanting to have curly hair and who influenced them to do so?
Like I said women all women utilize relaxers because they want a new hair style it has nothing to do with wanting to be white, and more to do with manageability and a new hair style.
The simple point is that the usage of relaxers and perms goes back to a time when black society was trying to fit in to the larger white society and culture.
And the proof of this is documented by the people themselves that created such things and the people that used them. It is also proven by the fact that the styles they chose were the same as those being worn by whites. That didn't just happen for no reason other than blacks wanted to fit in with the larger white society and culture around them, which historically had imposed itself on them and their definitions and standards of beauty as well. The fact that some people on this board would try and deny these simple facts of history are beyond logical and pathetic. I take no pride in trying to distort the past and painting a reality that is fake, just as fake as the hair many black women are wearing on their heads.
I don't have to pretend otherwise in order to make you feel good about reality for what it is.
The fact that you think you are defending black women by distorting history and outright lying is simply a travesty of intelligent conversation.
They wear their hair the way they do because that is what white folks told them is popular because most of the styles they wear are primarily white European hairstyles and textures.
And proof of that is as simple as looking at the products sold by Loreal and all the other white European owned and dominated cosmetic and hair products, which do not make African textured hair styles or promote them if they have them at all. Since black people don't control or own such companies, their history and culture has absolutely no bearing on the styles and trends promoted by them as those styles and trends are based on European tastes and styles. Pure and simple.
Again more bullshit and personal opinions, the use of relaxers were used for manageability thats how it was in the past, that is how it is today, and I will say most of the hair styles that people were wearing weren't white hairstyles they were black, anyone who knows their history would know that black people have been setting the trends, these are all facts, blk people have made alot of stuff popular, you are the one over here being emotional like a female making long ass post about some damn relaxers and acting like you know what youre talking about when you are only making yourself look like an emotional jackass anyone can see this **** plain as day but you.
Please tell me what influenced these blk women to wear this hairstyle?
Did white women influence these black women?
You obviously don't know a lot about European hairstyles. Ever heard of bride of frankenstein? And within white society just like black society there are fringe groups that go way out of the norm with their hair. You just don't know what on earth you are talking about. And yes, in straightening their hair and bleaching it, yes they are directly influenced by white culture. Face facts, whose products are they using to begin with? If they are using products designed and created by white Europeans then that must mean white Europeans are setting the trend.
quote: LOL the facts are black women been creating their own distinct hairstyles that don't have a damn thing to do with white women, and its white women aswell as men who copy blacks for the most part, although there has been some cultural influence back and forth, no one is denying that, but black people here have created their own sense of style, and only an emotional idiot would deny that.
Please go back in any time period in American history and show me the hairstyles of black women that influenced white women. While there may be a few, I can show you 5 to 1 as many hairstyles from white women influencing black women. Again, you are simply telling nonsensical lies to support an absurd argument. Look back in the thread at my previous posts and you will see the historical examples. Or you can just look below. As a matter of fact, a better example is the two girls in the background of the picture above who have applied relaxer with no styling similar to the shots I posted below.
Now you are not only denying the history of European culture and society in America, you are denying chemistry:
quote: Dark and Lovely Kids® Beautiful Beginnings No-Mistake Nourishing No-Lye Crème Relaxer provides the desired straightness while nourishing your child's hair.
By definition, hair relaxer makes hair straight for people with natural curly textured hair.
The fact that people are going to such lengths to deny basic facts shows in fact they are arguing from emotion not logic. I argue from facts not emotion.
Now if you don't accept the statements of the manufacturers themselves or the creators, like Garret Morgan, then how about the Government?
quote: Hair dye is used to color your hair. Hair relaxers are used to make your hair straight. Both hair dye and hair relaxers can hurt your skin, hair, and eyes, especially if you are not careful. ... How often should I relax my hair?
Straightening too often can damage your hair. You might want to ask your hairdresser for advice, because different products on the market have different directions. According to some hairdressers, every six to eight weeks is common, but this depends on the product. It also depends on your hair, such as how fast your hair grows.
It is tiring to hear grown men and women start ranting and raving like emotional children because they simply don't want to accept facts for what they are.
quote: Hair relaxant is one of the types of chemicals (mainly in the form of a lotion), used for straightening hair. It can also be used as a tool of thinning hair if your hair is very thick and lush, hair relaxer for men makes hair more manageable. It relaxes all the natural curls of the hair and the hair become totally straight.
quote: he active ingredient in the PERMANENT HAIR BODIpHIER is alkaline water, which penetrates into the hair without destroying the cuticle, or outer layer. It also softens the bonds inside the hair without breaking them. Softening the bonds of hair causes the natural curl pattern to lengthen as it loosens, making hair more straight.
The images below are from the manufacturer web site.
Before:
After: Now tell me that this is a black African hairstyle that African Americans introduced to whites. Please. This is nonsensical. And this is how most black women wear their hair on a daily basis.
Before:
After: Again, please tell me this is some African American hairstyle from Africa that just so happens to look just like most white children's hair..... Sure. Its just a coincidence.
But note that below, the girl already has straight hair and texture that is not like those above. The African Americans above, still need to use relaxers and chemicals to attain the texture in the before images below. So don't get it twisted. Before:
After:
So uh, how is that not clearly by definition a product used to make hair straight.
And that right there proves my point. People are sitting up here outright lying and trying to pretend to defend something based on absurd logic, half truths, lies and twisted facts.....
Please.
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer: This is really stupid Africans didn't utilize hair chemicals because they didn't have that out, in the past. This is something that most women us now including Africans themselves, so I don't get the issue?
Chemical relaxer could have very well been invented without slavery, who knows.
African woman with a perm.-
The point is moot because hair relaxer exists within a specific social and cultural framework that did not exist in Africa: the need to make tight curly natural African hair look like white peoples long straight hair. Hence, claiming that Africans "would have invented it" without a desire to have a hair texture and hair styles that is not natural to Africans is almost impossible to imagine. What social or cultural conditions would have had to exist for Africans not to love an express themselves through their natural hair texture as they have always been doing? The only social and cultural forces which would cause this is immersion in and oppression by a culture that promotes white culture and society as the dominant culture and lifestyle over and above all others. Hair relaxers and perms exist because of the experience of Africans in America is a perfect example of exactly such social and cultural conditions necessary for such things to be created. Otherwise, hair relaxers and perms would have been created in Africa thousands of years ago, without whites but it wasn't, precisely because the social and cultural conditions did not exist for such things to be created.
Deny it all you want, but African Americans are simply trying to fit into a European oriented society and culture. It isn't African and trying to pretend otherwise is pure nonsense.
First of all everything that you said right now is bullshit second off these are just your opinions, you really don't have a clue rather Africans would have did stuff to straighten their hair or if they wouldn't, Hair perms wouldn't had been made in the past for the same reason that Africans didn't create guns back than and other advance technology there simply wasn't the means.
Women change their hairstyles up all the time and they are always looking for the new style.
There are Africans in Africa with straight hair so rather these Africans would have been influenced by other Africans who knows.
But since you think you know so much what is the reason for white women wanting to have curly hair and who influenced them to do so?
Like I said women all women utilize relaxers because they want a new hair style it has nothing to do with wanting to be white, and more to do with manageability and a new hair style.
The simple point is that the usage of relaxers and perms goes back to a time when black society was trying to fit in to the larger white society and culture.
And the proof of this is documented by the people themselves that created such things and the people that used them. It is also proven by the fact that the styles they chose were the same as those being worn by whites. That didn't just happen for no reason other than blacks wanted to fit in with the larger white society and culture around them, which historically had imposed itself on them and their definitions and standards of beauty as well. The fact that some people on this board would try and deny these simple facts of history are beyond logical and pathetic. I take no pride in trying to distort the past and painting a reality that is fake, just as fake as the hair many black women are wearing on their heads.
I don't have to pretend otherwise in order to make you feel good about reality for what it is.
The fact that you think you are defending black women by distorting history and outright lying is simply a travesty of intelligent conversation.
They wear their hair the way they do because that is what white folks told them is popular because most of the styles they wear are primarily white European hairstyles and textures.
And proof of that is as simple as looking at the products sold by Loreal and all the other white European owned and dominated cosmetic and hair products, which do not make African textured hair styles or promote them if they have them at all. Since black people don't control or own such companies, their history and culture has absolutely no bearing on the styles and trends promoted by them as those styles and trends are based on European tastes and styles. Pure and simple.
Again more bullshit and personal opinions, the use of relaxers were used for manageability thats how it was in the past, that is how it is today, and I will say most of the hair styles that people were wearing weren't white hairstyles they were black, anyone who knows their history would know that black people have been setting the trends, these are all facts, blk people have made alot of stuff popular, you are the one over here being emotional like a female making long ass post about some damn relaxers and acting like you know what youre talking about when you are only making yourself look like an emotional jackass anyone can see this **** plain as day but you.
Please tell me what influenced these blk women to wear this hairstyle?
Did white women influence these black women?
LOL the facts are black women been creating their own distinct hairstyles that don't have a damn thing to do with white women, and its white women aswell as men who copy blacks for the most part, although there has been some cultural influence back and forth, no one is denying that, but black people here have created their own sense of style, and only an emotional idiot would deny that.
Now you are not only denying the history of European culture and society in America, you are denying chemistry:
quote: Dark and Lovely Kids® Beautiful Beginnings No-Mistake Nourishing No-Lye Crème Relaxer provides the desired straightness while nourishing your child's hair.
By definition, hair relaxer makes hair straight for people with natural curly textured hair.
The fact that people are going to such lengths to deny basic facts shows in fact they are arguing from emotion not logic. I argue from facts not emotion.
Now if you don't accept the statements of the manufacturers themselves or the creators, like Garret Morgan, then how about the Government?
quote: Hair dye is used to color your hair. Hair relaxers are used to make your hair straight. Both hair dye and hair relaxers can hurt your skin, hair, and eyes, especially if you are not careful. ... How often should I relax my hair?
Straightening too often can damage your hair. You might want to ask your hairdresser for advice, because different products on the market have different directions. According to some hairdressers, every six to eight weeks is common, but this depends on the product. It also depends on your hair, such as how fast your hair grows.
It is tiring to hear grown men and women start ranting and raving like emotional children because they simply don't want to accept facts for what they are.
quote: Hair relaxant is one of the types of chemicals (mainly in the form of a lotion), used for straightening hair. It can also be used as a tool of thinning hair if your hair is very thick and lush, hair relaxer for men makes hair more manageable. It relaxes all the natural curls of the hair and the hair become totally straight.
quote: he active ingredient in the PERMANENT HAIR BODIpHIER is alkaline water, which penetrates into the hair without destroying the cuticle, or outer layer. It also softens the bonds inside the hair without breaking them. Softening the bonds of hair causes the natural curl pattern to lengthen as it loosens, making hair more straight.
The images below are from the manufacturer web site.
Before:
After:
Before:
After:
But note that below, the girl already has straight hair and texture that is not like those above. The African Americans above, still need to use relaxers and chemicals to attain the texture in the before images below. So don't get it twisted. Before:
After:
So uh, how is that not clearly by definition a product used to make hair straight.
And that right there proves my point. People are sitting up here outright lying and trying to pretend to defend something based on absurd logic, half truths, lies and twisted facts.....
Please.
Again you made this long ass post that made you look like an emotional female, obviously you have never felt or seen relaxed hair and caucasion hair neither have you felt the two.
Relaxed hair doesn't look like white peoples hair neither do they feel the same, black hair is alot thicker, which is why even after the relaxer black women have to use flat irons because the perm doesn't make their hair straight like they want it.
I will ask you this question again, what white woman triggered those black women to wear that hair style? Could it be that in fact black women have their own distinct hair style? Separate from white women? And please do tell is MR. I know every damn thing, what makes white women perm their hair and get ass implants?
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer: This is really stupid Africans didn't utilize hair chemicals because they didn't have that out, in the past. This is something that most women us now including Africans themselves, so I don't get the issue?
Chemical relaxer could have very well been invented without slavery, who knows.
African woman with a perm.-
The point is moot because hair relaxer exists within a specific social and cultural framework that did not exist in Africa: the need to make tight curly natural African hair look like white peoples long straight hair. Hence, claiming that Africans "would have invented it" without a desire to have a hair texture and hair styles that is not natural to Africans is almost impossible to imagine. What social or cultural conditions would have had to exist for Africans not to love an express themselves through their natural hair texture as they have always been doing? The only social and cultural forces which would cause this is immersion in and oppression by a culture that promotes white culture and society as the dominant culture and lifestyle over and above all others. Hair relaxers and perms exist because of the experience of Africans in America is a perfect example of exactly such social and cultural conditions necessary for such things to be created. Otherwise, hair relaxers and perms would have been created in Africa thousands of years ago, without whites but it wasn't, precisely because the social and cultural conditions did not exist for such things to be created.
Deny it all you want, but African Americans are simply trying to fit into a European oriented society and culture. It isn't African and trying to pretend otherwise is pure nonsense.
First of all everything that you said right now is bullshit second off these are just your opinions, you really don't have a clue rather Africans would have did stuff to straighten their hair or if they wouldn't, Hair perms wouldn't had been made in the past for the same reason that Africans didn't create guns back than and other advance technology there simply wasn't the means.
Women change their hairstyles up all the time and they are always looking for the new style.
There are Africans in Africa with straight hair so rather these Africans would have been influenced by other Africans who knows.
But since you think you know so much what is the reason for white women wanting to have curly hair and who influenced them to do so?
Like I said women all women utilize relaxers because they want a new hair style it has nothing to do with wanting to be white, and more to do with manageability and a new hair style.
The simple point is that the usage of relaxers and perms goes back to a time when black society was trying to fit in to the larger white society and culture.
And the proof of this is documented by the people themselves that created such things and the people that used them. It is also proven by the fact that the styles they chose were the same as those being worn by whites. That didn't just happen for no reason other than blacks wanted to fit in with the larger white society and culture around them, which historically had imposed itself on them and their definitions and standards of beauty as well. The fact that some people on this board would try and deny these simple facts of history are beyond logical and pathetic. I take no pride in trying to distort the past and painting a reality that is fake, just as fake as the hair many black women are wearing on their heads.
I don't have to pretend otherwise in order to make you feel good about reality for what it is.
The fact that you think you are defending black women by distorting history and outright lying is simply a travesty of intelligent conversation.
They wear their hair the way they do because that is what white folks told them is popular because most of the styles they wear are primarily white European hairstyles and textures.
And proof of that is as simple as looking at the products sold by Loreal and all the other white European owned and dominated cosmetic and hair products, which do not make African textured hair styles or promote them if they have them at all. Since black people don't control or own such companies, their history and culture has absolutely no bearing on the styles and trends promoted by them as those styles and trends are based on European tastes and styles. Pure and simple.
Again more bullshit and personal opinions, the use of relaxers were used for manageability thats how it was in the past, that is how it is today, and I will say most of the hair styles that people were wearing weren't white hairstyles they were black, anyone who knows their history would know that black people have been setting the trends, these are all facts, blk people have made alot of stuff popular, you are the one over here being emotional like a female making long ass post about some damn relaxers and acting like you know what youre talking about when you are only making yourself look like an emotional jackass anyone can see this **** plain as day but you.
Please tell me what influenced these blk women to wear this hairstyle?
Did white women influence these black women?
LOL the facts are black women been creating their own distinct hairstyles that don't have a damn thing to do with white women, and its white women aswell as men who copy blacks for the most part, although there has been some cultural influence back and forth, no one is denying that, but black people here have created their own sense of style, and only an emotional idiot would deny that.
Now you are not only denying the history of European culture and society in America, you are denying chemistry:
quote: Dark and Lovely Kids® Beautiful Beginnings No-Mistake Nourishing No-Lye Crème Relaxer provides the desired straightness while nourishing your child's hair.
By definition, hair relaxer makes hair straight for people with natural curly textured hair.
The fact that people are going to such lengths to deny basic facts shows in fact they are arguing from emotion not logic. I argue from facts not emotion.
Now if you don't accept the statements of the manufacturers themselves or the creators, like Garret Morgan, then how about the Government?
quote: Hair dye is used to color your hair. Hair relaxers are used to make your hair straight. Both hair dye and hair relaxers can hurt your skin, hair, and eyes, especially if you are not careful. ... How often should I relax my hair?
Straightening too often can damage your hair. You might want to ask your hairdresser for advice, because different products on the market have different directions. According to some hairdressers, every six to eight weeks is common, but this depends on the product. It also depends on your hair, such as how fast your hair grows.
It is tiring to hear grown men and women start ranting and raving like emotional children because they simply don't want to accept facts for what they are.
quote: Hair relaxant is one of the types of chemicals (mainly in the form of a lotion), used for straightening hair. It can also be used as a tool of thinning hair if your hair is very thick and lush, hair relaxer for men makes hair more manageable. It relaxes all the natural curls of the hair and the hair become totally straight.
quote: he active ingredient in the PERMANENT HAIR BODIpHIER is alkaline water, which penetrates into the hair without destroying the cuticle, or outer layer. It also softens the bonds inside the hair without breaking them. Softening the bonds of hair causes the natural curl pattern to lengthen as it loosens, making hair more straight.
The images below are from the manufacturer web site.
Before:
After:
Before:
After:
But note that below, the girl already has straight hair and texture that is not like those above. The African Americans above, still need to use relaxers and chemicals to attain the texture in the before images below. So don't get it twisted. Before:
After:
So uh, how is that not clearly by definition a product used to make hair straight.
And that right there proves my point. People are sitting up here outright lying and trying to pretend to defend something based on absurd logic, half truths, lies and twisted facts.....
Please.
Again you made this long ass post that made you look like an emotional female, obviously you have never felt or seen relaxed hair and caucasion hair neither have you felt the two.
Relaxed hair doesn't look like white peoples hair neither do they feel the same, black hair is alot thicker, which is why even after the relaxer black women have to use flat irons because the perm doesn't make their hair straight like they want it.
I will ask you this question again, what white woman triggered those black women to wear that hair style? Could it be that in fact black women have their own distinct hair style? Separate from white women? And please do tell is MR. I know every damn thing, what makes white women perm their hair and get ass implants?
You can deny it all you want. But the fact is that American beauty and fashion is dominated by white Europeans. They set the trends and African Americans mostly are followers. Period. Most black hairstyles are influenced by the entertainers on TV and the products sold in the store. All of whom are brought and paid for by the same white European fashion industry to promote their products, which means white European hairstyles and fashion.
So you can keep this charade up all you want, but it won't change the facts that are observable and obvious. It isn't even a question of individual white women influencing blacks. The point is that America is a white European dominated society and culture and they are the ones who set the beauty and fashion standards that African Americans tend to follow.
Now you can keep denying it all you want but at this point you are simply pushing a lie to even pretend otherwise.
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
Next time break up your freaking post assclown, we aren't talking about Africans here we are talking about blacks you idiot! Black women are no more influenced by white women than white women are influenced by black women, yes there has been influence but its a fact that blacks created their own distinct styles while they were here in America, and since when did bleaching become a fucking white thing? And when did straight hair become a white thing?
There are people around the world making use of hair bleached products none of the styles that I posted up including this one can be claimed by whites because blacks invented this style,
and is known as a black style.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer: And when did straight hair become a white thing?
Whites have natural straight hair.
Negroids however have wooly hair.
Every Afronut however self-hates their wooly or 'nappy' hair and resort to spamming photos of somalis with Caucasoid genes in a sad attempt to prove blacks can have straight hair.
Pure blooded negroids don't have straight hair.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
The images below are from the manufacturer web site.
Before:
After: Now tell me that this is a black African hairstyle that African Americans introduced to whites. Please. This is nonsensical. And this is how most black women wear their hair on a daily basis.
Before:
After: Again, please tell me this is some African American hairstyle from Africa that just so happens to look just like most white children's hair..... Sure. Its just a coincidence.
But note that below, the girl already has straight hair and texture that is not like those above. The African Americans above, still need to use relaxers and chemicals to attain the texture in the before images below. So don't get it twisted. Before:
After:
Yep that's right.
Blacks can't even grow hair naturally beyond their eye length (look at above photos).
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer: This is really stupid Africans didn't utilize hair chemicals because they didn't have that out, in the past. This is something that most women us now including Africans themselves, so I don't get the issue?
Chemical relaxer could have very well been invented without slavery, who knows.
African woman with a perm.-
The point is moot because hair relaxer exists within a specific social and cultural framework that did not exist in Africa: the need to make tight curly natural African hair look like white peoples long straight hair. Hence, claiming that Africans "would have invented it" without a desire to have a hair texture and hair styles that is not natural to Africans is almost impossible to imagine. What social or cultural conditions would have had to exist for Africans not to love an express themselves through their natural hair texture as they have always been doing? The only social and cultural forces which would cause this is immersion in and oppression by a culture that promotes white culture and society as the dominant culture and lifestyle over and above all others. Hair relaxers and perms exist because of the experience of Africans in America is a perfect example of exactly such social and cultural conditions necessary for such things to be created. Otherwise, hair relaxers and perms would have been created in Africa thousands of years ago, without whites but it wasn't, precisely because the social and cultural conditions did not exist for such things to be created.
Deny it all you want, but African Americans are simply trying to fit into a European oriented society and culture. It isn't African and trying to pretend otherwise is pure nonsense.
First of all everything that you said right now is bullshit second off these are just your opinions, you really don't have a clue rather Africans would have did stuff to straighten their hair or if they wouldn't, Hair perms wouldn't had been made in the past for the same reason that Africans didn't create guns back than and other advance technology there simply wasn't the means.
Women change their hairstyles up all the time and they are always looking for the new style.
There are Africans in Africa with straight hair so rather these Africans would have been influenced by other Africans who knows.
But since you think you know so much what is the reason for white women wanting to have curly hair and who influenced them to do so?
Like I said women all women utilize relaxers because they want a new hair style it has nothing to do with wanting to be white, and more to do with manageability and a new hair style.
The simple point is that the usage of relaxers and perms goes back to a time when black society was trying to fit in to the larger white society and culture.
And the proof of this is documented by the people themselves that created such things and the people that used them. It is also proven by the fact that the styles they chose were the same as those being worn by whites. That didn't just happen for no reason other than blacks wanted to fit in with the larger white society and culture around them, which historically had imposed itself on them and their definitions and standards of beauty as well. The fact that some people on this board would try and deny these simple facts of history are beyond logical and pathetic. I take no pride in trying to distort the past and painting a reality that is fake, just as fake as the hair many black women are wearing on their heads.
I don't have to pretend otherwise in order to make you feel good about reality for what it is.
The fact that you think you are defending black women by distorting history and outright lying is simply a travesty of intelligent conversation.
They wear their hair the way they do because that is what white folks told them is popular because most of the styles they wear are primarily white European hairstyles and textures.
And proof of that is as simple as looking at the products sold by Loreal and all the other white European owned and dominated cosmetic and hair products, which do not make African textured hair styles or promote them if they have them at all. Since black people don't control or own such companies, their history and culture has absolutely no bearing on the styles and trends promoted by them as those styles and trends are based on European tastes and styles. Pure and simple.
Again more bullshit and personal opinions, the use of relaxers were used for manageability thats how it was in the past, that is how it is today, and I will say most of the hair styles that people were wearing weren't white hairstyles they were black, anyone who knows their history would know that black people have been setting the trends, these are all facts, blk people have made alot of stuff popular, you are the one over here being emotional like a female making long ass post about some damn relaxers and acting like you know what youre talking about when you are only making yourself look like an emotional jackass anyone can see this **** plain as day but you.
Please tell me what influenced these blk women to wear this hairstyle?
Did white women influence these black women?
LOL the facts are black women been creating their own distinct hairstyles that don't have a damn thing to do with white women, and its white women aswell as men who copy blacks for the most part, although there has been some cultural influence back and forth, no one is denying that, but black people here have created their own sense of style, and only an emotional idiot would deny that.
Now you are not only denying the history of European culture and society in America, you are denying chemistry:
quote: Dark and Lovely Kids® Beautiful Beginnings No-Mistake Nourishing No-Lye Crème Relaxer provides the desired straightness while nourishing your child's hair.
By definition, hair relaxer makes hair straight for people with natural curly textured hair.
The fact that people are going to such lengths to deny basic facts shows in fact they are arguing from emotion not logic. I argue from facts not emotion.
Now if you don't accept the statements of the manufacturers themselves or the creators, like Garret Morgan, then how about the Government?
quote: Hair dye is used to color your hair. Hair relaxers are used to make your hair straight. Both hair dye and hair relaxers can hurt your skin, hair, and eyes, especially if you are not careful. ... How often should I relax my hair?
Straightening too often can damage your hair. You might want to ask your hairdresser for advice, because different products on the market have different directions. According to some hairdressers, every six to eight weeks is common, but this depends on the product. It also depends on your hair, such as how fast your hair grows.
It is tiring to hear grown men and women start ranting and raving like emotional children because they simply don't want to accept facts for what they are.
quote: Hair relaxant is one of the types of chemicals (mainly in the form of a lotion), used for straightening hair. It can also be used as a tool of thinning hair if your hair is very thick and lush, hair relaxer for men makes hair more manageable. It relaxes all the natural curls of the hair and the hair become totally straight.
quote: he active ingredient in the PERMANENT HAIR BODIpHIER is alkaline water, which penetrates into the hair without destroying the cuticle, or outer layer. It also softens the bonds inside the hair without breaking them. Softening the bonds of hair causes the natural curl pattern to lengthen as it loosens, making hair more straight.
The images below are from the manufacturer web site.
Before:
After:
Before:
After:
But note that below, the girl already has straight hair and texture that is not like those above. The African Americans above, still need to use relaxers and chemicals to attain the texture in the before images below. So don't get it twisted. Before:
After:
So uh, how is that not clearly by definition a product used to make hair straight.
And that right there proves my point. People are sitting up here outright lying and trying to pretend to defend something based on absurd logic, half truths, lies and twisted facts.....
Please.
Again you made this long ass post that made you look like an emotional female, obviously you have never felt or seen relaxed hair and caucasion hair neither have you felt the two.
Relaxed hair doesn't look like white peoples hair neither do they feel the same, black hair is alot thicker, which is why even after the relaxer black women have to use flat irons because the perm doesn't make their hair straight like they want it.
I will ask you this question again, what white woman triggered those black women to wear that hair style? Could it be that in fact black women have their own distinct hair style? Separate from white women? And please do tell is MR. I know every damn thing, what makes white women perm their hair and get ass implants?
You can deny it all you want. But the fact is that American beauty and fashion is dominated by white Europeans. They set the trends and African Americans mostly are followers. Period. Most black hairstyles are influenced by the entertainers on TV and the products sold in the store. All of whom are brought and paid for by the same white European fashion industry to promote their products, which means white European hairstyles and fashion.
So you can keep this charade up all you want, but it won't change the facts that are observable and obvious. It isn't even a question of individual white women influencing blacks. The point is that America is a white European dominated society and culture and they are the ones who set the beauty and fashion standards that African Americans tend to follow.
Wrong! Its clear as day that you don't know what the hell you are talking about both blacks and whites dominate American society, with blks mostly influencing whites, and rarely the other way around, and its mostly the same as everywhere else, now unless you can prove some how that this hair style was created by white people, than your long ass empty post really means nothing-
I think most people agree that there is influence back and forth, but to sit up here and lie, to try to give clear black inventions and black hair styles into a produce that white people created is bullshit, because whites have nothing to do with these hair styles, these styles are distinct, and blacks set the trends as they always have. White styles and even white form of dress has always been seen as plain and uncool, so I have no idea where you get your facts from.
Now you can keep denying it all you want but at this point you are simply pushing a lie to even pretend otherwise.
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer: And when did straight hair become a white thing?
Whites have natural straight hair.
Negroids however have wooly hair.
Every Afronut however self-hates their wooly or 'nappy' hair and resort to spamming photos of somalis with Caucasoid genes in a sad attempt to prove blacks can have straight hair.
Pure blooded negroids don't have straight hair.
LOL look at this silly idiot posting again, didn't you already get debunked in the other thread? Somalis are far from being white and have nothing to do with whites, its just a another brain dead scheme from retarded ass white poeple like you that are apparently ashamed of your history, which is why you have to attach yourself to others people shistory, Somalis are pure Africans, I don't know what a negroid is neither is nappy hair a sign of being some kind of true negroid.
Since Somalis are black Africans, they can be used to point to blacks who have straight hair because even people mixed with whites don't have straight hair, which proves that straight hair is its on development in the Somali population.
Within Afro texture hair there are different hair textures 3A 3b 3c 4a 4b 4c with 4c being the most kinkiest..
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
The images below are from the manufacturer web site.
Before:
After: Now tell me that this is a black African hairstyle that African Americans introduced to whites. Please. This is nonsensical. And this is how most black women wear their hair on a daily basis.
Before:
After: Again, please tell me this is some African American hairstyle from Africa that just so happens to look just like most white children's hair..... Sure. Its just a coincidence.
But note that below, the girl already has straight hair and texture that is not like those above. The African Americans above, still need to use relaxers and chemicals to attain the texture in the before images below. So don't get it twisted. Before:
After:
Yep that's right.
Blacks can't even grow hair naturally beyond their eye length (look at above photos).
yea you're not very smart as both people had hair passed there eyeball, what did your mom do with you? Crack or meth? LOL I guess that whole thing about whites having high IQs are bullshit..
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
African American women buy hair products and use hairstyles directly manufactured by white European companies like Clairol, Loreal and others who doo not promote or sell products for African hair textures or hair styles. Therefore, in buying those products and wearing those styles they are indeed looking like white women.
Please show me how the above does not prove white European hair styles and fashion not influencing the style and fashion of black women.
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer: This is really stupid Africans didn't utilize hair chemicals because they didn't have that out, in the past. This is something that most women us now including Africans themselves, so I don't get the issue?
Chemical relaxer could have very well been invented without slavery, who knows.
African woman with a perm.-
The point is moot because hair relaxer exists within a specific social and cultural framework that did not exist in Africa: the need to make tight curly natural African hair look like white peoples long straight hair. Hence, claiming that Africans "would have invented it" without a desire to have a hair texture and hair styles that is not natural to Africans is almost impossible to imagine. What social or cultural conditions would have had to exist for Africans not to love an express themselves through their natural hair texture as they have always been doing? The only social and cultural forces which would cause this is immersion in and oppression by a culture that promotes white culture and society as the dominant culture and lifestyle over and above all others. Hair relaxers and perms exist because of the experience of Africans in America is a perfect example of exactly such social and cultural conditions necessary for such things to be created. Otherwise, hair relaxers and perms would have been created in Africa thousands of years ago, without whites but it wasn't, precisely because the social and cultural conditions did not exist for such things to be created.
Deny it all you want, but African Americans are simply trying to fit into a European oriented society and culture. It isn't African and trying to pretend otherwise is pure nonsense.
First of all everything that you said right now is bullshit second off these are just your opinions, you really don't have a clue rather Africans would have did stuff to straighten their hair or if they wouldn't, Hair perms wouldn't had been made in the past for the same reason that Africans didn't create guns back than and other advance technology there simply wasn't the means.
Women change their hairstyles up all the time and they are always looking for the new style.
There are Africans in Africa with straight hair so rather these Africans would have been influenced by other Africans who knows.
But since you think you know so much what is the reason for white women wanting to have curly hair and who influenced them to do so?
Like I said women all women utilize relaxers because they want a new hair style it has nothing to do with wanting to be white, and more to do with manageability and a new hair style.
The simple point is that the usage of relaxers and perms goes back to a time when black society was trying to fit in to the larger white society and culture.
And the proof of this is documented by the people themselves that created such things and the people that used them. It is also proven by the fact that the styles they chose were the same as those being worn by whites. That didn't just happen for no reason other than blacks wanted to fit in with the larger white society and culture around them, which historically had imposed itself on them and their definitions and standards of beauty as well. The fact that some people on this board would try and deny these simple facts of history are beyond logical and pathetic. I take no pride in trying to distort the past and painting a reality that is fake, just as fake as the hair many black women are wearing on their heads.
I don't have to pretend otherwise in order to make you feel good about reality for what it is.
The fact that you think you are defending black women by distorting history and outright lying is simply a travesty of intelligent conversation.
They wear their hair the way they do because that is what white folks told them is popular because most of the styles they wear are primarily white European hairstyles and textures.
And proof of that is as simple as looking at the products sold by Loreal and all the other white European owned and dominated cosmetic and hair products, which do not make African textured hair styles or promote them if they have them at all. Since black people don't control or own such companies, their history and culture has absolutely no bearing on the styles and trends promoted by them as those styles and trends are based on European tastes and styles. Pure and simple.
Again more bullshit and personal opinions, the use of relaxers were used for manageability thats how it was in the past, that is how it is today, and I will say most of the hair styles that people were wearing weren't white hairstyles they were black, anyone who knows their history would know that black people have been setting the trends, these are all facts, blk people have made alot of stuff popular, you are the one over here being emotional like a female making long ass post about some damn relaxers and acting like you know what youre talking about when you are only making yourself look like an emotional jackass anyone can see this **** plain as day but you.
Please tell me what influenced these blk women to wear this hairstyle?
Did white women influence these black women?
LOL the facts are black women been creating their own distinct hairstyles that don't have a damn thing to do with white women, and its white women aswell as men who copy blacks for the most part, although there has been some cultural influence back and forth, no one is denying that, but black people here have created their own sense of style, and only an emotional idiot would deny that.
Now you are not only denying the history of European culture and society in America, you are denying chemistry:
quote: Dark and Lovely Kids® Beautiful Beginnings No-Mistake Nourishing No-Lye Crème Relaxer provides the desired straightness while nourishing your child's hair.
By definition, hair relaxer makes hair straight for people with natural curly textured hair.
The fact that people are going to such lengths to deny basic facts shows in fact they are arguing from emotion not logic. I argue from facts not emotion.
Now if you don't accept the statements of the manufacturers themselves or the creators, like Garret Morgan, then how about the Government?
quote: Hair dye is used to color your hair. Hair relaxers are used to make your hair straight. Both hair dye and hair relaxers can hurt your skin, hair, and eyes, especially if you are not careful. ... How often should I relax my hair?
Straightening too often can damage your hair. You might want to ask your hairdresser for advice, because different products on the market have different directions. According to some hairdressers, every six to eight weeks is common, but this depends on the product. It also depends on your hair, such as how fast your hair grows.
It is tiring to hear grown men and women start ranting and raving like emotional children because they simply don't want to accept facts for what they are.
quote: Hair relaxant is one of the types of chemicals (mainly in the form of a lotion), used for straightening hair. It can also be used as a tool of thinning hair if your hair is very thick and lush, hair relaxer for men makes hair more manageable. It relaxes all the natural curls of the hair and the hair become totally straight.
quote: he active ingredient in the PERMANENT HAIR BODIpHIER is alkaline water, which penetrates into the hair without destroying the cuticle, or outer layer. It also softens the bonds inside the hair without breaking them. Softening the bonds of hair causes the natural curl pattern to lengthen as it loosens, making hair more straight.
The images below are from the manufacturer web site.
Before:
After:
Before:
After:
But note that below, the girl already has straight hair and texture that is not like those above. The African Americans above, still need to use relaxers and chemicals to attain the texture in the before images below. So don't get it twisted. Before:
After:
So uh, how is that not clearly by definition a product used to make hair straight.
And that right there proves my point. People are sitting up here outright lying and trying to pretend to defend something based on absurd logic, half truths, lies and twisted facts.....
Please.
Again you made this long ass post that made you look like an emotional female, obviously you have never felt or seen relaxed hair and caucasion hair neither have you felt the two.
Relaxed hair doesn't look like white peoples hair neither do they feel the same, black hair is alot thicker, which is why even after the relaxer black women have to use flat irons because the perm doesn't make their hair straight like they want it.
I will ask you this question again, what white woman triggered those black women to wear that hair style? Could it be that in fact black women have their own distinct hair style? Separate from white women? And please do tell is MR. I know every damn thing, what makes white women perm their hair and get ass implants?
You can deny it all you want. But the fact is that American beauty and fashion is dominated by white Europeans. They set the trends and African Americans mostly are followers. Period. Most black hairstyles are influenced by the entertainers on TV and the products sold in the store. All of whom are brought and paid for by the same white European fashion industry to promote their products, which means white European hairstyles and fashion.
So you can keep this charade up all you want, but it won't change the facts that are observable and obvious. It isn't even a question of individual white women influencing blacks. The point is that America is a white European dominated society and culture and they are the ones who set the beauty and fashion standards that African Americans tend to follow.
Now you can keep denying it all you want but at this point you are simply pushing a lie to even pretend otherwise.
Wrong! Its clear as day that you don't know what the hell you are talking about both blacks and whites dominate American society, with blks mostly influencing whites, and rarely the other way around, and its mostly the same as everywhere else, now unless you can prove some how that this hair style was created by white people, than your long ass empty post really means nothing-
I think most people agree that there is influence back and forth, but to sit up here and lie, to try to give clear black inventions and black hair styles into a produce that white people created is bullshit, because whites have nothing to do with these hair styles, these styles are distinct, and blacks set the trends as they always have. White styles and even white form of dress has always been seen as plain and uncool, so I have no idea where you get your facts from.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer: Somalis are far from being white and have nothing to do with whites, its just a another brain dead scheme from retarded ass white poeple like you that are apparently ashamed of your history, which is why you have to attach yourself to others people shistory, Somalis are pure Africans,
Somalis are 60% Caucasoid. This is FACT. Its been repeatedly confirmed by geneticists, proving Somalis cluster closer to EURASIANS (Caucasoids) tha Black Sub-Saharan Africans (Negroids). The scientific studies are here -
That Somalis are 60% Caucasoid is clearly visible in their phenotype -
No one claims they are pure white, they are however 60% Caucasoid which is clearly visible.
quote:I don't know what a negroid is neither is nappy hair a sign of being some kind of true negroid.
A Negroid is a Black Sub-Saharan African.
Since all afronuts are self-hating blacks they can never accept what their race looks like: wide nosed, wooly haired etc. All those features your own race hates.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer: yea you're not very smart as both people had hair passed there eyeball, what did your mom do with you? Crack or meth? LOL I guess that whole thing about whites having high IQs are bullshit.. [/QB]
Retard. Look at the fringe of their hair, it cannot grow past their eye length. This is because Negroid hair does not grow downwards, it coils because of the follicle shape making the texture wooly.
A Negroid cannot grow hair over their face, even over their eye-lid. Look at the photos posted above. The Negroid hair fringe is at the top of the skull, it can't grow downwards.
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: African American women buy hair products and use hairstyles directly manufactured by white European companies like Clairol, Loreal and others who doo not promote or sell products for African hair textures or hair styles. Therefore, in buying those products and wearing those styles they are indeed looking like white women.
Another stupid post that doesn't back up your claims, unless you can post proof of the white European who invented the hairstyle that Mary is wearing this post of yours is empty and no one shouldn't take you seriously, I would also like to ask you again what is the reason for curly perms and ass implants?
And please do tell me what white European created this style?
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer: This is really stupid Africans didn't utilize hair chemicals because they didn't have that out, in the past. This is something that most women us now including Africans themselves, so I don't get the issue?
Chemical relaxer could have very well been invented without slavery, who knows.
African woman with a perm.-
The point is moot because hair relaxer exists within a specific social and cultural framework that did not exist in Africa: the need to make tight curly natural African hair look like white peoples long straight hair. Hence, claiming that Africans "would have invented it" without a desire to have a hair texture and hair styles that is not natural to Africans is almost impossible to imagine. What social or cultural conditions would have had to exist for Africans not to love an express themselves through their natural hair texture as they have always been doing? The only social and cultural forces which would cause this is immersion in and oppression by a culture that promotes white culture and society as the dominant culture and lifestyle over and above all others. Hair relaxers and perms exist because of the experience of Africans in America is a perfect example of exactly such social and cultural conditions necessary for such things to be created. Otherwise, hair relaxers and perms would have been created in Africa thousands of years ago, without whites but it wasn't, precisely because the social and cultural conditions did not exist for such things to be created.
Deny it all you want, but African Americans are simply trying to fit into a European oriented society and culture. It isn't African and trying to pretend otherwise is pure nonsense.
First of all everything that you said right now is bullshit second off these are just your opinions, you really don't have a clue rather Africans would have did stuff to straighten their hair or if they wouldn't, Hair perms wouldn't had been made in the past for the same reason that Africans didn't create guns back than and other advance technology there simply wasn't the means.
Women change their hairstyles up all the time and they are always looking for the new style.
There are Africans in Africa with straight hair so rather these Africans would have been influenced by other Africans who knows.
But since you think you know so much what is the reason for white women wanting to have curly hair and who influenced them to do so?
Like I said women all women utilize relaxers because they want a new hair style it has nothing to do with wanting to be white, and more to do with manageability and a new hair style.
The simple point is that the usage of relaxers and perms goes back to a time when black society was trying to fit in to the larger white society and culture.
And the proof of this is documented by the people themselves that created such things and the people that used them. It is also proven by the fact that the styles they chose were the same as those being worn by whites. That didn't just happen for no reason other than blacks wanted to fit in with the larger white society and culture around them, which historically had imposed itself on them and their definitions and standards of beauty as well. The fact that some people on this board would try and deny these simple facts of history are beyond logical and pathetic. I take no pride in trying to distort the past and painting a reality that is fake, just as fake as the hair many black women are wearing on their heads.
I don't have to pretend otherwise in order to make you feel good about reality for what it is.
The fact that you think you are defending black women by distorting history and outright lying is simply a travesty of intelligent conversation.
They wear their hair the way they do because that is what white folks told them is popular because most of the styles they wear are primarily white European hairstyles and textures.
And proof of that is as simple as looking at the products sold by Loreal and all the other white European owned and dominated cosmetic and hair products, which do not make African textured hair styles or promote them if they have them at all. Since black people don't control or own such companies, their history and culture has absolutely no bearing on the styles and trends promoted by them as those styles and trends are based on European tastes and styles. Pure and simple.
Again more bullshit and personal opinions, the use of relaxers were used for manageability thats how it was in the past, that is how it is today, and I will say most of the hair styles that people were wearing weren't white hairstyles they were black, anyone who knows their history would know that black people have been setting the trends, these are all facts, blk people have made alot of stuff popular, you are the one over here being emotional like a female making long ass post about some damn relaxers and acting like you know what youre talking about when you are only making yourself look like an emotional jackass anyone can see this **** plain as day but you.
Please tell me what influenced these blk women to wear this hairstyle?
Did white women influence these black women?
LOL the facts are black women been creating their own distinct hairstyles that don't have a damn thing to do with white women, and its white women aswell as men who copy blacks for the most part, although there has been some cultural influence back and forth, no one is denying that, but black people here have created their own sense of style, and only an emotional idiot would deny that.
Now you are not only denying the history of European culture and society in America, you are denying chemistry:
quote: Dark and Lovely Kids® Beautiful Beginnings No-Mistake Nourishing No-Lye Crème Relaxer provides the desired straightness while nourishing your child's hair.
By definition, hair relaxer makes hair straight for people with natural curly textured hair.
The fact that people are going to such lengths to deny basic facts shows in fact they are arguing from emotion not logic. I argue from facts not emotion.
Now if you don't accept the statements of the manufacturers themselves or the creators, like Garret Morgan, then how about the Government?
quote: Hair dye is used to color your hair. Hair relaxers are used to make your hair straight. Both hair dye and hair relaxers can hurt your skin, hair, and eyes, especially if you are not careful. ... How often should I relax my hair?
Straightening too often can damage your hair. You might want to ask your hairdresser for advice, because different products on the market have different directions. According to some hairdressers, every six to eight weeks is common, but this depends on the product. It also depends on your hair, such as how fast your hair grows.
It is tiring to hear grown men and women start ranting and raving like emotional children because they simply don't want to accept facts for what they are.
quote: Hair relaxant is one of the types of chemicals (mainly in the form of a lotion), used for straightening hair. It can also be used as a tool of thinning hair if your hair is very thick and lush, hair relaxer for men makes hair more manageable. It relaxes all the natural curls of the hair and the hair become totally straight.
quote: he active ingredient in the PERMANENT HAIR BODIpHIER is alkaline water, which penetrates into the hair without destroying the cuticle, or outer layer. It also softens the bonds inside the hair without breaking them. Softening the bonds of hair causes the natural curl pattern to lengthen as it loosens, making hair more straight.
The images below are from the manufacturer web site.
Before:
After:
Before:
After:
But note that below, the girl already has straight hair and texture that is not like those above. The African Americans above, still need to use relaxers and chemicals to attain the texture in the before images below. So don't get it twisted. Before:
After:
So uh, how is that not clearly by definition a product used to make hair straight.
And that right there proves my point. People are sitting up here outright lying and trying to pretend to defend something based on absurd logic, half truths, lies and twisted facts.....
Please.
Again you made this long ass post that made you look like an emotional female, obviously you have never felt or seen relaxed hair and caucasion hair neither have you felt the two.
Relaxed hair doesn't look like white peoples hair neither do they feel the same, black hair is alot thicker, which is why even after the relaxer black women have to use flat irons because the perm doesn't make their hair straight like they want it.
I will ask you this question again, what white woman triggered those black women to wear that hair style? Could it be that in fact black women have their own distinct hair style? Separate from white women? And please do tell is MR. I know every damn thing, what makes white women perm their hair and get ass implants?
You can deny it all you want. But the fact is that American beauty and fashion is dominated by white Europeans. They set the trends and African Americans mostly are followers. Period. Most black hairstyles are influenced by the entertainers on TV and the products sold in the store. All of whom are brought and paid for by the same white European fashion industry to promote their products, which means white European hairstyles and fashion.
So you can keep this charade up all you want, but it won't change the facts that are observable and obvious. It isn't even a question of individual white women influencing blacks. The point is that America is a white European dominated society and culture and they are the ones who set the beauty and fashion standards that African Americans tend to follow.
Now you can keep denying it all you want but at this point you are simply pushing a lie to even pretend otherwise.
Wrong! Its clear as day that you don't know what the hell you are talking about both blacks and whites dominate American society, with blks mostly influencing whites, and rarely the other way around, and its mostly the same as everywhere else, now unless you can prove some how that this hair style was created by white people, than your long ass empty post really means nothing-
I think most people agree that there is influence back and forth, but to sit up here and lie, to try to give clear black inventions and black hair styles into a produce that white people created is bullshit, because whites have nothing to do with these hair styles, these styles are distinct, and blacks set the trends as they always have. White styles and even white form of dress has always been seen as plain and uncool, so I have no idea where you get your facts from.
LOL! How on earth do blacks dominate American society? What major corporations do they own? What major banks and institutions? What major industries do they control?
Where is one major hair care and cosmetics company in the world that is owned and controlled by blacks. And when I say major I mean a global brand that is found world wide and featured in print and moving picture media as a global brand.
You have simply lost your mind trying to even pretend to argue a point.
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer: yea you're not very smart as both people had hair passed there eyeball, what did your mom do with you? Crack or meth? LOL I guess that whole thing about whites having high IQs are bullshit..
Retard. Look at the fringe of their hair, it cannot grow past their eye length. This is because Negroid hair does not grow downwards, it coils because of the follicle shape making the texture wooly.
A Negroid cannot grow hair over their face, even over their eye-lid. Look at the photos posted above. The Negroid hair fringe is at the top of the skull, it can't grow downwards. [/QB]
LOL again you showcase how much of a retarded joke you are, because in both cases those women had hair longer than eyeball length now in another thread you claimed that black women couldn't grow long hair period, now your dumbass is switching it up, which is it you dumb hick?
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
--- Negroids cannot grow hair beyond their eye-lid. Look at the hair fringe. Its at the top of the skull. Negroid hair does not grow downwards.
Now contrast to Caucasoid hair -
Caucasoid hair grows naturally downwards and can cover the face.
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer: This is really stupid Africans didn't utilize hair chemicals because they didn't have that out, in the past. This is something that most women us now including Africans themselves, so I don't get the issue?
Chemical relaxer could have very well been invented without slavery, who knows.
African woman with a perm.-
The point is moot because hair relaxer exists within a specific social and cultural framework that did not exist in Africa: the need to make tight curly natural African hair look like white peoples long straight hair. Hence, claiming that Africans "would have invented it" without a desire to have a hair texture and hair styles that is not natural to Africans is almost impossible to imagine. What social or cultural conditions would have had to exist for Africans not to love an express themselves through their natural hair texture as they have always been doing? The only social and cultural forces which would cause this is immersion in and oppression by a culture that promotes white culture and society as the dominant culture and lifestyle over and above all others. Hair relaxers and perms exist because of the experience of Africans in America is a perfect example of exactly such social and cultural conditions necessary for such things to be created. Otherwise, hair relaxers and perms would have been created in Africa thousands of years ago, without whites but it wasn't, precisely because the social and cultural conditions did not exist for such things to be created.
Deny it all you want, but African Americans are simply trying to fit into a European oriented society and culture. It isn't African and trying to pretend otherwise is pure nonsense.
First of all everything that you said right now is bullshit second off these are just your opinions, you really don't have a clue rather Africans would have did stuff to straighten their hair or if they wouldn't, Hair perms wouldn't had been made in the past for the same reason that Africans didn't create guns back than and other advance technology there simply wasn't the means.
Women change their hairstyles up all the time and they are always looking for the new style.
There are Africans in Africa with straight hair so rather these Africans would have been influenced by other Africans who knows.
But since you think you know so much what is the reason for white women wanting to have curly hair and who influenced them to do so?
Like I said women all women utilize relaxers because they want a new hair style it has nothing to do with wanting to be white, and more to do with manageability and a new hair style.
The simple point is that the usage of relaxers and perms goes back to a time when black society was trying to fit in to the larger white society and culture.
And the proof of this is documented by the people themselves that created such things and the people that used them. It is also proven by the fact that the styles they chose were the same as those being worn by whites. That didn't just happen for no reason other than blacks wanted to fit in with the larger white society and culture around them, which historically had imposed itself on them and their definitions and standards of beauty as well. The fact that some people on this board would try and deny these simple facts of history are beyond logical and pathetic. I take no pride in trying to distort the past and painting a reality that is fake, just as fake as the hair many black women are wearing on their heads.
I don't have to pretend otherwise in order to make you feel good about reality for what it is.
The fact that you think you are defending black women by distorting history and outright lying is simply a travesty of intelligent conversation.
They wear their hair the way they do because that is what white folks told them is popular because most of the styles they wear are primarily white European hairstyles and textures.
And proof of that is as simple as looking at the products sold by Loreal and all the other white European owned and dominated cosmetic and hair products, which do not make African textured hair styles or promote them if they have them at all. Since black people don't control or own such companies, their history and culture has absolutely no bearing on the styles and trends promoted by them as those styles and trends are based on European tastes and styles. Pure and simple.
Again more bullshit and personal opinions, the use of relaxers were used for manageability thats how it was in the past, that is how it is today, and I will say most of the hair styles that people were wearing weren't white hairstyles they were black, anyone who knows their history would know that black people have been setting the trends, these are all facts, blk people have made alot of stuff popular, you are the one over here being emotional like a female making long ass post about some damn relaxers and acting like you know what youre talking about when you are only making yourself look like an emotional jackass anyone can see this **** plain as day but you.
Please tell me what influenced these blk women to wear this hairstyle?
Did white women influence these black women?
LOL the facts are black women been creating their own distinct hairstyles that don't have a damn thing to do with white women, and its white women aswell as men who copy blacks for the most part, although there has been some cultural influence back and forth, no one is denying that, but black people here have created their own sense of style, and only an emotional idiot would deny that.
Now you are not only denying the history of European culture and society in America, you are denying chemistry:
quote: Dark and Lovely Kids® Beautiful Beginnings No-Mistake Nourishing No-Lye Crème Relaxer provides the desired straightness while nourishing your child's hair.
By definition, hair relaxer makes hair straight for people with natural curly textured hair.
The fact that people are going to such lengths to deny basic facts shows in fact they are arguing from emotion not logic. I argue from facts not emotion.
Now if you don't accept the statements of the manufacturers themselves or the creators, like Garret Morgan, then how about the Government?
quote: Hair dye is used to color your hair. Hair relaxers are used to make your hair straight. Both hair dye and hair relaxers can hurt your skin, hair, and eyes, especially if you are not careful. ... How often should I relax my hair?
Straightening too often can damage your hair. You might want to ask your hairdresser for advice, because different products on the market have different directions. According to some hairdressers, every six to eight weeks is common, but this depends on the product. It also depends on your hair, such as how fast your hair grows.
It is tiring to hear grown men and women start ranting and raving like emotional children because they simply don't want to accept facts for what they are.
quote: Hair relaxant is one of the types of chemicals (mainly in the form of a lotion), used for straightening hair. It can also be used as a tool of thinning hair if your hair is very thick and lush, hair relaxer for men makes hair more manageable. It relaxes all the natural curls of the hair and the hair become totally straight.
quote: he active ingredient in the PERMANENT HAIR BODIpHIER is alkaline water, which penetrates into the hair without destroying the cuticle, or outer layer. It also softens the bonds inside the hair without breaking them. Softening the bonds of hair causes the natural curl pattern to lengthen as it loosens, making hair more straight.
The images below are from the manufacturer web site.
Before:
After:
Before:
After:
But note that below, the girl already has straight hair and texture that is not like those above. The African Americans above, still need to use relaxers and chemicals to attain the texture in the before images below. So don't get it twisted. Before:
After:
So uh, how is that not clearly by definition a product used to make hair straight.
And that right there proves my point. People are sitting up here outright lying and trying to pretend to defend something based on absurd logic, half truths, lies and twisted facts.....
Please.
Again you made this long ass post that made you look like an emotional female, obviously you have never felt or seen relaxed hair and caucasion hair neither have you felt the two.
Relaxed hair doesn't look like white peoples hair neither do they feel the same, black hair is alot thicker, which is why even after the relaxer black women have to use flat irons because the perm doesn't make their hair straight like they want it.
I will ask you this question again, what white woman triggered those black women to wear that hair style? Could it be that in fact black women have their own distinct hair style? Separate from white women? And please do tell is MR. I know every damn thing, what makes white women perm their hair and get ass implants?
You can deny it all you want. But the fact is that American beauty and fashion is dominated by white Europeans. They set the trends and African Americans mostly are followers. Period. Most black hairstyles are influenced by the entertainers on TV and the products sold in the store. All of whom are brought and paid for by the same white European fashion industry to promote their products, which means white European hairstyles and fashion.
So you can keep this charade up all you want, but it won't change the facts that are observable and obvious. It isn't even a question of individual white women influencing blacks. The point is that America is a white European dominated society and culture and they are the ones who set the beauty and fashion standards that African Americans tend to follow.
Now you can keep denying it all you want but at this point you are simply pushing a lie to even pretend otherwise.
Wrong! Its clear as day that you don't know what the hell you are talking about both blacks and whites dominate American society, with blks mostly influencing whites, and rarely the other way around, and its mostly the same as everywhere else, now unless you can prove some how that this hair style was created by white people, than your long ass empty post really means nothing-
I think most people agree that there is influence back and forth, but to sit up here and lie, to try to give clear black inventions and black hair styles into a produce that white people created is bullshit, because whites have nothing to do with these hair styles, these styles are distinct, and blacks set the trends as they always have. White styles and even white form of dress has always been seen as plain and uncool, so I have no idea where you get your facts from.
LOL! How on earth do blacks dominate American society? What major corporations do they own? What major banks and institutions? What major industries do they control?
Where is one major hair care and cosmetics company in the world that is owned and controlled by blacks. And when I say major I mean a global brand that is found world wide and featured in print and moving picture media as a global brand.
You have simply lost your mind trying to even pretend to argue a point.
LOL and you have no point, you have proven nothing here, and everybody else is against you except the white racist, blacks dominate the entertainment business aswell as sports, blacks set the trend, alot of the terms cool hip and jive came from blacks, our society is very much influenced by black culture only a dumbck would deny that. White styles and white way of life have always been seen as uncool to most blacks, and in fact Southern Europeans claim that white Americans don't know how to dress and that they-re styles are drab and boring.
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:
--- Negroids cannot grow hair beyond their eye-lid. Look at the hair fringe. Its at the top of the skull. Negroid hair does not grow downwards.
Now contrast to Caucasoid hair -
Caucasoid hair grows naturally downwards and can cover the face.
LOL what a dumbfuck the ladies hair that you posted above is almost to her shoulders, wow are you mental? If the hair grows long to the middle of a persons back it doesn't matter the hair texture, it will start dropping down.
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer: Somalis are far from being white and have nothing to do with whites, its just a another brain dead scheme from retarded ass white poeple like you that are apparently ashamed of your history, which is why you have to attach yourself to others people shistory, Somalis are pure Africans,
Somalis are 60% Caucasoid. This is FACT. Its been repeatedly confirmed by geneticists, proving Somalis cluster closer to EURASIANS (Caucasoids) tha Black Sub-Saharan Africans (Negroids). The scientific studies are here -
That Somalis are 60% Caucasoid is clearly visible in their phenotype -
No one claims they are pure white, they are however 60% Caucasoid which is clearly visible.
quote:I don't know what a negroid is neither is nappy hair a sign of being some kind of true negroid.
A Negroid is a Black Sub-Saharan African.
Since all afronuts are self-hating blacks they can never accept what their race looks like: wide nosed, wooly haired etc. All those features your own race hates.
And you are a fucking idiot and I'm going to make you look like the idiot you are-
African peoples are the most diverse in the world whether analyzed by DNA or skeletal or cranial methods. Attempts to deny this are rooted in racism and error. African people, particularly SUB-SAHARAN Africans, vary the most in how they look, more so than any other population in the world.
"Estimates of genetic diversity in major geographic regions are frequently made by pooling all individuals into regional aggregates. This method can potentially bias results if there are differences in population substructure within regions, since increased variation among local populations could inflate regional diversity. A preferred method of estimating regional diversity is to compute the mean diversity within local populations. Both methods are applied to a global sample of craniometric data consisting of 57 measurements taken on 1734 crania from 18 local populations in six geographic regions: sub-Saharan Africa, Europe, East Asia, Australasia, Polynesia, and the Americas. Each region is represented by three local populations.
Both methods for estimating regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic studies." (Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5, October 2001, pp. 629-636)
"The living peoples of the African continent are diverse in facial characteristics, stature, skin color, hair form, genetics, and other characteristics. No one set of characteristics is more African than another. Variability is also found in "sub-Saharan" Africa, to which the word "Africa" is sometimes erroneously restricted. There is a problem with definitions. Sometimes Africa is defined using cultural factors, like language, that exclude developments that clearly arose in Africa. For example, sometimes even the Horn of Africa (Somalia, Ethiopia, Eritrea) is excluded because of geography and language and the fact that some of its peoples have narrow noses and faces.
However, the Horn is at the same latitude as Nigeria, and its languages are African. The latitude of 15 degree passes through Timbuktu, surely in "sub-Saharan Africa," as well as Khartoum in Sudan; both are north of the Horn. Another false idea is that supra-Saharan and Saharan Africa were peopled after the emergence of "Europeans" or Near Easterners by populations coming from outside Africa. Hence, the ancient Egyptians in some writings have been de-Africanized. These ideas, which limit the definition of Africa and Africans, are rooted in racism and earlier, erroneous "scientific" approaches." (S. Keita, "The Diversity of Indigenous Africans," in Egypt in Africa, Theodore Clenko, Editor (1996), pp. 104-105. [10])
Somalis link much more heavily with African populations such as those in Kenya and Ethiopia than Middle Eastern or European ones according to DNA evidence. Eurasian genes only accounted for about 15% of the mix among Somalis, typically associated with recent Arab influence. On such key common DNA markers as E3b1, Europeans only weighed in at 5%, and Middle Easterners at approximately 6%. The overwhelming link of Somalis- over 85% of the total is with Africans. Kenya and Ethiopia are located in "sub-Saharan" Africa.
"The high frequency (77.6%) of haplogroup E3b1 was characteristic of male Somalis. The frequency of E3b1 was significantly lower in Ethiopian Oromos (35.9%), Ethiopian Amharas (22.9%), Egyptians (20.0%), Sudanese (17.5%), Kenyans (15.1%),10 Iraqis (6.3%), Northern Africans (6.1%), Southern Europeans (0.5–5.1%) and sub-Saharan populations." (Sanchez et al.,(2005) High frequencies of Y chromosome lineages characterized by E3b1, DYS19-11, DYS392-12 in Somali males, Eu J of Hum Genet (2005) 13, 856–866)
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer: LOL what a dumbfuck the ladies hair that you posted above is almost to her shoulders, wow are you mental? If the hair grows long to the middle of a persons back it doesn't matter the hair texture, it will start dropping down. [/QB]
I'm not repeating again retard, i now presume you are just a troll. I have never met anyone so dumb.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
REPOST. Euronut fails to accept the following -
--- Negroids cannot grow hair beyond their eye-lid. Look at the hair fringe. Its at the top of the skull. Negroid hair does not grow downwards.
Now contrast to Caucasoid hair -
Caucasoid hair grows naturally downwards and can cover the face.
=======
Negroid hair cannot grow downwards over the face.
Euronut is a fucking retard who looks at picture and lies about them, which is why i am no longer wasting my time with her/his trolling.
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer: LOL what a dumbfuck the ladies hair that you posted above is almost to her shoulders, wow are you mental? If the hair grows long to the middle of a persons back it doesn't matter the hair texture, it will start dropping down.
I'm not repeating again retard, i now presume you are just a troll. I have never met anyone so dumb. [/QB]
LOL the only troll is the idiot who said afro texture hair can't grow past their eye ball but than turn around and post a picture of a woman with afro texture hair almost to her shoulders lol!
Please go head and post some more clown.
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: REPOST. Euronut fails to accept the following -
--- Negroids cannot grow hair beyond their eye-lid. Look at the hair fringe. Its at the top of the skull. Negroid hair does not grow downwards.
Now contrast to Caucasoid hair -
Caucasoid hair grows naturally downwards and can cover the face.
=======
Negroid hair cannot grow downwards over the face.
Euronut is a fucking retard who looks at picture and lies about them, which is why i am no longer wasting my time with her/his trolling.
LOL and repost for the mentally challenged idiot you posted this picture of a black woman that has hair almost to her shoulders than turns around and says that black women can't grow hair past their eyeballs lol! What a dumbass!
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
^ Black people have the lowest IQ.
Apparently they don't even know what a hair fringe is.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
--- Negroids cannot grow hair beyond their eye-lid. Look at the hair fringe. Its at the top of the skull. Negroid hair does not grow downwards.
Now contrast to Caucasoid hair -
Caucasoid hair grows naturally downwards and can cover the face.
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: ^ Black people have the lowest IQ.
Apparently they don't even know what a hair fringe is.
LOL rofl says the assclown that uses the racialrealtiy link LMBAO! What a idiot!
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:
--- Negroids cannot grow hair beyond their eye-lid. Look at the hair fringe. Its at the top of the skull. Negroid hair does not grow downwards.
Now contrast to Caucasoid hair -
Caucasoid hair grows naturally downwards and can cover the face.
LOL LMBAO and you are still not proving your point and making yourself look like a total idiot LMBAO!
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:
--- Negroids cannot grow hair beyond their eye-lid. Look at the hair fringe. Its at the top of the skull. Negroid hair does not grow downwards.
Now contrast to Caucasoid hair -
Caucasoid hair grows naturally downwards and can cover the face.
You lost and I win again.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer: This is really stupid Africans didn't utilize hair chemicals because they didn't have that out, in the past. This is something that most women us now including Africans themselves, so I don't get the issue?
Chemical relaxer could have very well been invented without slavery, who knows.
African woman with a perm.-
The point is moot because hair relaxer exists within a specific social and cultural framework that did not exist in Africa: the need to make tight curly natural African hair look like white peoples long straight hair. Hence, claiming that Africans "would have invented it" without a desire to have a hair texture and hair styles that is not natural to Africans is almost impossible to imagine. What social or cultural conditions would have had to exist for Africans not to love an express themselves through their natural hair texture as they have always been doing? The only social and cultural forces which would cause this is immersion in and oppression by a culture that promotes white culture and society as the dominant culture and lifestyle over and above all others. Hair relaxers and perms exist because of the experience of Africans in America is a perfect example of exactly such social and cultural conditions necessary for such things to be created. Otherwise, hair relaxers and perms would have been created in Africa thousands of years ago, without whites but it wasn't, precisely because the social and cultural conditions did not exist for such things to be created.
Deny it all you want, but African Americans are simply trying to fit into a European oriented society and culture. It isn't African and trying to pretend otherwise is pure nonsense.
First of all everything that you said right now is bullshit second off these are just your opinions, you really don't have a clue rather Africans would have did stuff to straighten their hair or if they wouldn't, Hair perms wouldn't had been made in the past for the same reason that Africans didn't create guns back than and other advance technology there simply wasn't the means.
Women change their hairstyles up all the time and they are always looking for the new style.
There are Africans in Africa with straight hair so rather these Africans would have been influenced by other Africans who knows.
But since you think you know so much what is the reason for white women wanting to have curly hair and who influenced them to do so?
Like I said women all women utilize relaxers because they want a new hair style it has nothing to do with wanting to be white, and more to do with manageability and a new hair style.
The simple point is that the usage of relaxers and perms goes back to a time when black society was trying to fit in to the larger white society and culture.
And the proof of this is documented by the people themselves that created such things and the people that used them. It is also proven by the fact that the styles they chose were the same as those being worn by whites. That didn't just happen for no reason other than blacks wanted to fit in with the larger white society and culture around them, which historically had imposed itself on them and their definitions and standards of beauty as well. The fact that some people on this board would try and deny these simple facts of history are beyond logical and pathetic. I take no pride in trying to distort the past and painting a reality that is fake, just as fake as the hair many black women are wearing on their heads.
I don't have to pretend otherwise in order to make you feel good about reality for what it is.
The fact that you think you are defending black women by distorting history and outright lying is simply a travesty of intelligent conversation.
They wear their hair the way they do because that is what white folks told them is popular because most of the styles they wear are primarily white European hairstyles and textures.
And proof of that is as simple as looking at the products sold by Loreal and all the other white European owned and dominated cosmetic and hair products, which do not make African textured hair styles or promote them if they have them at all. Since black people don't control or own such companies, their history and culture has absolutely no bearing on the styles and trends promoted by them as those styles and trends are based on European tastes and styles. Pure and simple.
Again more bullshit and personal opinions, the use of relaxers were used for manageability thats how it was in the past, that is how it is today, and I will say most of the hair styles that people were wearing weren't white hairstyles they were black, anyone who knows their history would know that black people have been setting the trends, these are all facts, blk people have made alot of stuff popular, you are the one over here being emotional like a female making long ass post about some damn relaxers and acting like you know what youre talking about when you are only making yourself look like an emotional jackass anyone can see this **** plain as day but you.
Please tell me what influenced these blk women to wear this hairstyle?
Did white women influence these black women?
LOL the facts are black women been creating their own distinct hairstyles that don't have a damn thing to do with white women, and its white women aswell as men who copy blacks for the most part, although there has been some cultural influence back and forth, no one is denying that, but black people here have created their own sense of style, and only an emotional idiot would deny that.
Now you are not only denying the history of European culture and society in America, you are denying chemistry:
quote: Dark and Lovely Kids® Beautiful Beginnings No-Mistake Nourishing No-Lye Crème Relaxer provides the desired straightness while nourishing your child's hair.
By definition, hair relaxer makes hair straight for people with natural curly textured hair.
The fact that people are going to such lengths to deny basic facts shows in fact they are arguing from emotion not logic. I argue from facts not emotion.
Now if you don't accept the statements of the manufacturers themselves or the creators, like Garret Morgan, then how about the Government?
quote: Hair dye is used to color your hair. Hair relaxers are used to make your hair straight. Both hair dye and hair relaxers can hurt your skin, hair, and eyes, especially if you are not careful. ... How often should I relax my hair?
Straightening too often can damage your hair. You might want to ask your hairdresser for advice, because different products on the market have different directions. According to some hairdressers, every six to eight weeks is common, but this depends on the product. It also depends on your hair, such as how fast your hair grows.
It is tiring to hear grown men and women start ranting and raving like emotional children because they simply don't want to accept facts for what they are.
quote: Hair relaxant is one of the types of chemicals (mainly in the form of a lotion), used for straightening hair. It can also be used as a tool of thinning hair if your hair is very thick and lush, hair relaxer for men makes hair more manageable. It relaxes all the natural curls of the hair and the hair become totally straight.
quote: he active ingredient in the PERMANENT HAIR BODIpHIER is alkaline water, which penetrates into the hair without destroying the cuticle, or outer layer. It also softens the bonds inside the hair without breaking them. Softening the bonds of hair causes the natural curl pattern to lengthen as it loosens, making hair more straight.
The images below are from the manufacturer web site.
Before:
After:
Before:
After:
But note that below, the girl already has straight hair and texture that is not like those above. The African Americans above, still need to use relaxers and chemicals to attain the texture in the before images below. So don't get it twisted. Before:
After:
So uh, how is that not clearly by definition a product used to make hair straight.
And that right there proves my point. People are sitting up here outright lying and trying to pretend to defend something based on absurd logic, half truths, lies and twisted facts.....
Please.
Again you made this long ass post that made you look like an emotional female, obviously you have never felt or seen relaxed hair and caucasion hair neither have you felt the two.
Relaxed hair doesn't look like white peoples hair neither do they feel the same, black hair is alot thicker, which is why even after the relaxer black women have to use flat irons because the perm doesn't make their hair straight like they want it.
I will ask you this question again, what white woman triggered those black women to wear that hair style? Could it be that in fact black women have their own distinct hair style? Separate from white women? And please do tell is MR. I know every damn thing, what makes white women perm their hair and get ass implants?
You can deny it all you want. But the fact is that American beauty and fashion is dominated by white Europeans. They set the trends and African Americans mostly are followers. Period. Most black hairstyles are influenced by the entertainers on TV and the products sold in the store. All of whom are brought and paid for by the same white European fashion industry to promote their products, which means white European hairstyles and fashion.
So you can keep this charade up all you want, but it won't change the facts that are observable and obvious. It isn't even a question of individual white women influencing blacks. The point is that America is a white European dominated society and culture and they are the ones who set the beauty and fashion standards that African Americans tend to follow.
Now you can keep denying it all you want but at this point you are simply pushing a lie to even pretend otherwise.
Wrong! Its clear as day that you don't know what the hell you are talking about both blacks and whites dominate American society, with blks mostly influencing whites, and rarely the other way around, and its mostly the same as everywhere else, now unless you can prove some how that this hair style was created by white people, than your long ass empty post really means nothing-
I think most people agree that there is influence back and forth, but to sit up here and lie, to try to give clear black inventions and black hair styles into a produce that white people created is bullshit, because whites have nothing to do with these hair styles, these styles are distinct, and blacks set the trends as they always have. White styles and even white form of dress has always been seen as plain and uncool, so I have no idea where you get your facts from.
LOL! How on earth do blacks dominate American society? What major corporations do they own? What major banks and institutions? What major industries do they control?
Where is one major hair care and cosmetics company in the world that is owned and controlled by blacks. And when I say major I mean a global brand that is found world wide and featured in print and moving picture media as a global brand.
You have simply lost your mind trying to even pretend to argue a point.
LOL and you have no point, you have proven nothing here, and everybody else is against you except the white racist, blacks dominate the entertainment business aswell as sports, blacks set the trend, alot of the terms cool hip and jive came from blacks, our society is very much influenced by black culture only a dumbck would deny that. White styles and white way of life have always been seen as uncool to most blacks, and in fact Southern Europeans claim that white Americans don't know how to dress and that they-re styles are drab and boring.
The point was that you are in denial and that the reason African Americans perm their hair and use relaxer is because of the fact that white Europeans dominate the hair care and beauty industry.
You haven't disproven it, you simply have been trying to deny it.
Of course I need no racists to defend me or be on my side because the facts are obvious for anyone to see.
You simply want to use racism as an excuse to spout lies, such as:
"relaxer is not to straighten hair"
"whites and blacks equally dominate society"
"blacks have always been the leaders and set the trends for American hair style and influenced whites"
Simply put you have no ability to make a serious argument other than spouting lies.
LOL!
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer: This is really stupid Africans didn't utilize hair chemicals because they didn't have that out, in the past. This is something that most women us now including Africans themselves, so I don't get the issue?
Chemical relaxer could have very well been invented without slavery, who knows.
African woman with a perm.-
The point is moot because hair relaxer exists within a specific social and cultural framework that did not exist in Africa: the need to make tight curly natural African hair look like white peoples long straight hair. Hence, claiming that Africans "would have invented it" without a desire to have a hair texture and hair styles that is not natural to Africans is almost impossible to imagine. What social or cultural conditions would have had to exist for Africans not to love an express themselves through their natural hair texture as they have always been doing? The only social and cultural forces which would cause this is immersion in and oppression by a culture that promotes white culture and society as the dominant culture and lifestyle over and above all others. Hair relaxers and perms exist because of the experience of Africans in America is a perfect example of exactly such social and cultural conditions necessary for such things to be created. Otherwise, hair relaxers and perms would have been created in Africa thousands of years ago, without whites but it wasn't, precisely because the social and cultural conditions did not exist for such things to be created.
Deny it all you want, but African Americans are simply trying to fit into a European oriented society and culture. It isn't African and trying to pretend otherwise is pure nonsense.
First of all everything that you said right now is bullshit second off these are just your opinions, you really don't have a clue rather Africans would have did stuff to straighten their hair or if they wouldn't, Hair perms wouldn't had been made in the past for the same reason that Africans didn't create guns back than and other advance technology there simply wasn't the means.
Women change their hairstyles up all the time and they are always looking for the new style.
There are Africans in Africa with straight hair so rather these Africans would have been influenced by other Africans who knows.
But since you think you know so much what is the reason for white women wanting to have curly hair and who influenced them to do so?
Like I said women all women utilize relaxers because they want a new hair style it has nothing to do with wanting to be white, and more to do with manageability and a new hair style.
The simple point is that the usage of relaxers and perms goes back to a time when black society was trying to fit in to the larger white society and culture.
And the proof of this is documented by the people themselves that created such things and the people that used them. It is also proven by the fact that the styles they chose were the same as those being worn by whites. That didn't just happen for no reason other than blacks wanted to fit in with the larger white society and culture around them, which historically had imposed itself on them and their definitions and standards of beauty as well. The fact that some people on this board would try and deny these simple facts of history are beyond logical and pathetic. I take no pride in trying to distort the past and painting a reality that is fake, just as fake as the hair many black women are wearing on their heads.
I don't have to pretend otherwise in order to make you feel good about reality for what it is.
The fact that you think you are defending black women by distorting history and outright lying is simply a travesty of intelligent conversation.
They wear their hair the way they do because that is what white folks told them is popular because most of the styles they wear are primarily white European hairstyles and textures.
And proof of that is as simple as looking at the products sold by Loreal and all the other white European owned and dominated cosmetic and hair products, which do not make African textured hair styles or promote them if they have them at all. Since black people don't control or own such companies, their history and culture has absolutely no bearing on the styles and trends promoted by them as those styles and trends are based on European tastes and styles. Pure and simple.
Again more bullshit and personal opinions, the use of relaxers were used for manageability thats how it was in the past, that is how it is today, and I will say most of the hair styles that people were wearing weren't white hairstyles they were black, anyone who knows their history would know that black people have been setting the trends, these are all facts, blk people have made alot of stuff popular, you are the one over here being emotional like a female making long ass post about some damn relaxers and acting like you know what youre talking about when you are only making yourself look like an emotional jackass anyone can see this **** plain as day but you.
Please tell me what influenced these blk women to wear this hairstyle?
Did white women influence these black women?
LOL the facts are black women been creating their own distinct hairstyles that don't have a damn thing to do with white women, and its white women aswell as men who copy blacks for the most part, although there has been some cultural influence back and forth, no one is denying that, but black people here have created their own sense of style, and only an emotional idiot would deny that.
Now you are not only denying the history of European culture and society in America, you are denying chemistry:
quote: Dark and Lovely Kids® Beautiful Beginnings No-Mistake Nourishing No-Lye Crème Relaxer provides the desired straightness while nourishing your child's hair.
By definition, hair relaxer makes hair straight for people with natural curly textured hair.
The fact that people are going to such lengths to deny basic facts shows in fact they are arguing from emotion not logic. I argue from facts not emotion.
Now if you don't accept the statements of the manufacturers themselves or the creators, like Garret Morgan, then how about the Government?
quote: Hair dye is used to color your hair. Hair relaxers are used to make your hair straight. Both hair dye and hair relaxers can hurt your skin, hair, and eyes, especially if you are not careful. ... How often should I relax my hair?
Straightening too often can damage your hair. You might want to ask your hairdresser for advice, because different products on the market have different directions. According to some hairdressers, every six to eight weeks is common, but this depends on the product. It also depends on your hair, such as how fast your hair grows.
It is tiring to hear grown men and women start ranting and raving like emotional children because they simply don't want to accept facts for what they are.
quote: Hair relaxant is one of the types of chemicals (mainly in the form of a lotion), used for straightening hair. It can also be used as a tool of thinning hair if your hair is very thick and lush, hair relaxer for men makes hair more manageable. It relaxes all the natural curls of the hair and the hair become totally straight.
quote: he active ingredient in the PERMANENT HAIR BODIpHIER is alkaline water, which penetrates into the hair without destroying the cuticle, or outer layer. It also softens the bonds inside the hair without breaking them. Softening the bonds of hair causes the natural curl pattern to lengthen as it loosens, making hair more straight.
The images below are from the manufacturer web site.
Before:
After:
Before:
After:
But note that below, the girl already has straight hair and texture that is not like those above. The African Americans above, still need to use relaxers and chemicals to attain the texture in the before images below. So don't get it twisted. Before:
After:
So uh, how is that not clearly by definition a product used to make hair straight.
And that right there proves my point. People are sitting up here outright lying and trying to pretend to defend something based on absurd logic, half truths, lies and twisted facts.....
Please.
Again you made this long ass post that made you look like an emotional female, obviously you have never felt or seen relaxed hair and caucasion hair neither have you felt the two.
Relaxed hair doesn't look like white peoples hair neither do they feel the same, black hair is alot thicker, which is why even after the relaxer black women have to use flat irons because the perm doesn't make their hair straight like they want it.
I will ask you this question again, what white woman triggered those black women to wear that hair style? Could it be that in fact black women have their own distinct hair style? Separate from white women? And please do tell is MR. I know every damn thing, what makes white women perm their hair and get ass implants?
You can deny it all you want. But the fact is that American beauty and fashion is dominated by white Europeans. They set the trends and African Americans mostly are followers. Period. Most black hairstyles are influenced by the entertainers on TV and the products sold in the store. All of whom are brought and paid for by the same white European fashion industry to promote their products, which means white European hairstyles and fashion.
So you can keep this charade up all you want, but it won't change the facts that are observable and obvious. It isn't even a question of individual white women influencing blacks. The point is that America is a white European dominated society and culture and they are the ones who set the beauty and fashion standards that African Americans tend to follow.
Now you can keep denying it all you want but at this point you are simply pushing a lie to even pretend otherwise.
Wrong! Its clear as day that you don't know what the hell you are talking about both blacks and whites dominate American society, with blks mostly influencing whites, and rarely the other way around, and its mostly the same as everywhere else, now unless you can prove some how that this hair style was created by white people, than your long ass empty post really means nothing-
I think most people agree that there is influence back and forth, but to sit up here and lie, to try to give clear black inventions and black hair styles into a produce that white people created is bullshit, because whites have nothing to do with these hair styles, these styles are distinct, and blacks set the trends as they always have. White styles and even white form of dress has always been seen as plain and uncool, so I have no idea where you get your facts from.
LOL! How on earth do blacks dominate American society? What major corporations do they own? What major banks and institutions? What major industries do they control?
Where is one major hair care and cosmetics company in the world that is owned and controlled by blacks. And when I say major I mean a global brand that is found world wide and featured in print and moving picture media as a global brand.
You have simply lost your mind trying to even pretend to argue a point.
LOL and you have no point, you have proven nothing here, and everybody else is against you except the white racist, blacks dominate the entertainment business aswell as sports, blacks set the trend, alot of the terms cool hip and jive came from blacks, our society is very much influenced by black culture only a dumbck would deny that. White styles and white way of life have always been seen as uncool to most blacks, and in fact Southern Europeans claim that white Americans don't know how to dress and that they-re styles are drab and boring.
The point was that you are in denial and that the reason African Americans perm their hair and use relaxer is because of the fact that white Europeans dominate the hair care and beauty industry.
You haven't disproven it, you simply have been trying to deny it.
Of course I need no racists to defend me or be on my side because the facts are obvious for anyone to see.
You simply want to use racism as an excuse to spout lies, such as:
"relaxer is not to straighten hair"
"whites and blacks equally dominate society"
"blacks have always been the leaders and set the trends for American hair style and influenced whites"
Simply put you have no ability to make a serious argument other than spouting lies.
LOL!
LOL and where is your argument? You have proven nothing here, you only spouted off your opinion and spammed the thread with photos, which you have yet to prove that a white European created that hair style, and do you have a comprehension problem? Where did I say that the relaxer wasn't used to straighten hair? Clearly I said there is a difference between relaxed hair and white peoples hair, they also don't look alike at all.
Wrong you're just another idiot that want to give the use of black hair styles and styles period away to white Europeans when those styles had nothing to do with white Europeans, whatsoever, neither did a white european invent the perm.
There is nothing white or european about the many hairstyles that black women utilize today, nothing you say is fact its purely your opinion, neither can you back up anything you say, and of course you have to piggy back off the white racist because you don't believe in blacks having something distinct for themselves.
Posted by element (Member # 19569) on :
@ Euronutslayer .. The woman in the zebra print dress has a wig or weave ..Its not a perm because it's horizontal & synthetic.
I think the carnival women have synthetic hair pieces as it looks too advanced & intricate. you dont get that colourful glow if the hair is straightened ,dyed & coloured.
@ cassiterides .. we can grow our hair waist long but we have to dread it.... Bottom row ziggy & damian Marley.
No one has the monopoly on a hairstyle but if you adopt a style you may also adopt the attributes.
Everytime i view the comments i think of b movies with subliminals & metaphors.
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
quote:Originally posted by element:
@ Euronutslayer .. The woman in the zebra print dress has a wig or weave ..Its not a perm because it's horizontal & synthetic.
I think the carnival women have synthetic hair pieces as it looks too advanced & intricate. you dont get that colourful glow if the hair is straightened ,dyed & coloured.
It's a popular dancehall look... we call them plastic head gyal.
@ cassiterides .. we can grow our hair waist long but we have to dread it.... Bottom row ziggy & damian Marley.
No one has the monopoly on a hairstyle but if you adopt a style you may also adopt the attributes.
.Everytime i view the comments i think of b movies with subliminals & metaphors.
Rather this is true are not it doesn't look like that, it looks like a perm, moving on ghetto women in that picture didn't get their styles from any dance hall, they live in the ghetto and they don't come in contact with the dance hall people. Neither are the people who invented dance hall white european, so I don't get your point.
Posted by element (Member # 19569) on :
^^ Edited post
@ Euronutslayer .This is a taboo topic & im trying to be ambiguous. Note the title of the thread.
I dont understand your dancehall comment..
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
[/UOTE]LOL and where is your argument? You have proven nothing here, you only spouted off your opinion and spammed the thread with photos, which you have yet to prove that a white European created that hair style, and do you have a comprehension problem? Where did I say that the relaxer wasn't used to straighten hair? Clearly I said there is a difference between relaxed hair and white peoples hair, they also don't look alike at all.
Wrong you're just another idiot that want to give the use of black hair styles and styles period away to white Europeans when those styles had nothing to do with white Europeans, whatsoever, neither did a white european invent the perm.
There is nothing white or european about the many hairstyles that black women utilize today, nothing you say is fact its purely your opinion, neither can you back up anything you say, and of course you have to piggy back off the white racist because you don't believe in blacks having something distinct for themselves. [/QUOTE] And there you go again swearing you are defending black society by telling lies.
LOL!
quote:Again more bullshit and personal opinions, the use of relaxers were used for manageability thats how it was in the past,
Show me where ancient Africans ever used chemical relaxers to straighten their hair.....
There is indeed something white or European about African American hairstyles when their hair matches those created by Europeans and promoted by white European fashion, entertainment and cosmetic companies.
How on earth do you try and pretend that this somehow came about other than by direct overt influence?
That is what I mean by you are simply lying.
Then you make up these bogus strawmen to dance around the fact that you are simply promoting pure nonsense by denying the historical reality of European cultural and social domination in America.
Give me a break.
These hairstyles are identical and originate in the same place: White European culture.
Again, all of these images are taken directly from Loreal's facebook page. Again, Loreal does not make products to promote African natural hairstyles or textures. They promote white European hairstyles and textures and hence most of the African American women on their site and who promote their products in fashion and entertainment are promoting and wearing white European hair styles and textures. Because straight hair is not natural to most African Americans. So don't give me that crap that African Americans straighten their hair simply because they are creative and not because of any influence of white European culture or a desire to adopt white European hairstyles, because they do it every day.
So like I said you are lying out of your teeth when the facts are staring you in the face.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
quote:cassiterides .. we can grow our hair waist long but we have to dread it.... Bottom row ziggy & damian Marley
Dread locks are not natural, they are artificial.
The fact is Negroids cannot grow natural long hair, their hair fringe cannot even grow beyond their eye-length.
I don't know why blacks self-hate their wooly hair but they are obsessed with wanting to be long straight haired like whites.
Black children choose white dolls over black dolls because the white dolls have straight hair.
Its all self-hate. Blacks crave straight hair like whites.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:
quote:cassiterides .. we can grow our hair waist long but we have to dread it.... Bottom row ziggy & damian Marley
Dread locks are not natural, they are artificial.
The fact is Negroids cannot grow natural long hair, their hair fringe cannot even grow beyond their eye-length.
I don't know why blacks self-hate their wooly hair but they are obsessed with wanting to be long straight haired like whites.
Black children choose white dolls over black dolls because the white dolls have straight hair.
Its all self-hate. Blacks crave straight hair like whites.
lol, the retarded redneck claims to know it better. He claims dreadlocks are not natural.
Elaborate, how are they artificial?
You are insane in the membrane. Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: REPOST. Euronut fails to accept the following -
--- Negroids cannot grow hair beyond their eye-lid. Look at the hair fringe. Its at the top of the skull. Negroid hair does not grow downwards.
Now contrast to Caucasoid hair -
Caucasoid hair grows naturally downwards and can cover the face.
=======
Negroid hair cannot grow downwards over the face.
Euronut is a fucking retard who looks at picture and lies about them, which is why i am no longer wasting my time with her/his trolling.
You lose again and I win again. Pathetic retarded redneck.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: ^ Black people have the lowest IQ.
Apparently they don't even know what a hair fringe is.
lol,
This is why you are getting your retarded redneck arse kicked intellectually constantly by blacks.
This is also why, Nigerians outperform all other ethniceties in acedemia.
I win again, and you lose again.
Posted by element (Member # 19569) on :
@ cassiterides.I thought you was a blackologist?
Tell me what's artificial about dreadlocks? Ive always had dreads in some form because its natural & versatile .
My hair can be vertical or asymmetric & ive never used any substances..Just regular washing with a mild shampoo..
The hair grows vertical then it collapses under its own weight. we separate the roots to form the look before it collapses.
Only afro hair can grow vertical.My hair also turns aboriginal blonde if overexposed in the sun.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by element: @ cassiterides.I thought you was a blackologist?
Tell me what's artificial about dreadlocks? Ive always had dreads in some form because its natural & versatile .
My hair can be vertical or asymmetric & ive never used any substances..Just regular washing with a mild shampoo..
The hair grows vertical then it collapses under its own weight. we separate the roots to form the look before it collapses.
Only afro hair can grow vertical.My hair also turns aboriginal blonde if overexposed in the sun.
Momentarily the butt hurt redneck is googling for any answers. Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
quote:Originally posted by element: [QB] @ cassiterides.I thought you was a blackologist?
Tell me what's artificial about dreadlocks? Ive always had dreads in some form because its natural & versatile .
Dreadlocks definition -
'A hairstyle in which the hair is washed, but not combed, and twisted while wet into tight braids or ringlets hanging down on all sides'
- To point out the obvious this is not natural but artificial. The hair had to be twisted and braided, which is why dreadlocks don't look natural and look fake.
Negroids cannot grow natural long hair.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:
quote:Originally posted by element: [QB] @ cassiterides.I thought you was a blackologist?
Tell me what's artificial about dreadlocks? Ive always had dreads in some form because its natural & versatile .
Dreadlocks definition -
'A hairstyle in which the hair is washed, but not combed, and twisted while wet into tight braids or ringlets hanging down on all sides'
- To point out the obvious this is not natural but artificial. The hair had to be twisted and braided, which is why dreadlocks don't look natural and look fake.
Negroids cannot grow natural long hair.
Error by the retarded redneck again.
Dreads can and do grow naturally. Braiding has nothing to do with it.
All this googling and still no results.
lol at dreads look unnatural. Now the xenophobic retarded redneck claims to be the expert on this too. lololololololol.
Thats why you have an obligatory black history month...... we can work it out....
Braids are not permanent, braids would damage the hair if left in too long.
Dreads are super natural. The word dread comes from the revolutionary culture , concepts & psychological fear the awakened black man has against the oppressor.
If you ever engage with blacks in the real world.They will reveal that White woman love black men with dreads.
Isnt that ironic?
This is Heidi Klums husband seal around 1991
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:
quote:Originally posted by element: [QB] @ cassiterides.I thought you was a blackologist?
Tell me what's artificial about dreadlocks? Ive always had dreads in some form because its natural & versatile .
Dreadlocks definition -
'A hairstyle in which the hair is washed, but not combed, and twisted while wet into tight braids or ringlets hanging down on all sides'
- To point out the obvious this is not natural but artificial. The hair had to be twisted and braided, which is why dreadlocks don't look natural and look fake.
Negroids cannot grow natural long hair.
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: [/UOTE]LOL and where is your argument? You have proven nothing here, you only spouted off your opinion and spammed the thread with photos, which you have yet to prove that a white European created that hair style, and do you have a comprehension problem? Where did I say that the relaxer wasn't used to straighten hair? Clearly I said there is a difference between relaxed hair and white peoples hair, they also don't look alike at all.
Wrong you're just another idiot that want to give the use of black hair styles and styles period away to white Europeans when those styles had nothing to do with white Europeans, whatsoever, neither did a white european invent the perm.
There is nothing white or european about the many hairstyles that black women utilize today, nothing you say is fact its purely your opinion, neither can you back up anything you say, and of course you have to piggy back off the white racist because you don't believe in blacks having something distinct for themselves.
And there you go again swearing you are defending black society by telling lies.
quote:
LOL LMBAO and what do I have to tell a lie about? Again please tell me the white European that created that hair style that the black women were wearing? Its a fact that those blk women created their own styles, not only with their regular hair but with braids. LOL!
quote:Again more bullshit and personal opinions, the use of relaxers were used for manageability thats how it was in the past,
Show me where ancient Africans ever used chemical relaxers to straighten their hair.....
quote:
Again are you brain dead? In my earlier post I said the chemical relaxer hadn't been invented yet so they couldn't use of course, but obviously they made use of dying their hair blond and red though, but its a fact that the chemical relaxer was used for manageblity.
There is indeed something white or European about African American hairstyles when their hair matches those created by Europeans and promoted by white European fashion, entertainment and cosmetic companies.
quote:
LOL and you are going to have to prove that, them having the same hair styles once in a gray moon doesn't mean that they got it from whites, so you are going to have to prove that whites invented those hairstyles..
quote:
How on earth do you try and pretend that this somehow came about other than by direct overt influence?
quote:
And why on earth do you pretend like you are bringing some great knowledge when youre not, your whole post is based off your opinions, neither can you back it up with any facts what so ever.
That is what I mean by you are simply lying.
quote:
Then you make up these bogus strawmen to dance around the fact that you are simply promoting pure nonsense by denying the historical reality of European cultural and social domination in America.
LOL and your ass is denying black contribution in America society all to push some nonsensical agenda about hair relaxers, what are you a female? Why are you tied up into hair relaxers etc..
Give me a break. These hairstyles are identical and originate in the same place: White European culture. LOL umm since when did wearing your hair down become a white thing? LOL
LOL umm since when did wearing your hair down become a white thing? LOL
LOL you post a picture of a white female wearing her hair down and a black female wearing a Indian weave, and you think this some how proves your point?
Again, all of these images are taken directly from Loreal's facebook page. Again, Loreal does not make products to promote African natural hairstyles or textures. They promote white European hairstyles and textures and hence most of the African American women on their site and who promote their products in fashion and entertainment are promoting and wearing white European hair styles and textures. Because straight hair is not natural to most African Americans. So don't give me that crap that African Americans straighten their hair simply because they are creative and not because of any influence of white European culture or a desire to adopt white European hairstyles, because they do it every day.
LOL and you are a fcking idiot, if you believe this some how means that black women hairstyles are influenced by whites, and not their own I suggest you go get a black hairstyle magazine and a white magazine and you will see a big difference, not only that who the fck is natural now a days? No one hardly everyone uses something to change up their hair and make it different so you again made a long ass nonsensical post that doesn't prove your point.
quote:
So like I said you are lying out of your teeth when the facts are staring you in the face. . [/QUOTE]
LOL and you are lying and twisting the facts which is blacks created their own styles independent of whites, most people here will agree buddy. Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
By the way Doug most black women don't buy Loreal so I think you better find another product line that blk women do actually used, none of those hairstyles proved your point, why dont you actually pick up a black hairstyle magazine and than try to prove your point until than you are working on guess game and your opinions.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
lol at dreads look unnatural. Now the xenophobic retarded redneck claims to be the expert on this too. lololololololol.
Dreadlocks are an artificial hair style created by matting, backcombing, twist & rip, twist & pin, twisting, brush rubbing, dread braiding.
They are clearly not natural. No one's hair naturally grows as a dreadlock. Blacks create the dreadlock hairstyle since they cannot grow natural long hair, but as i said dreadlocks do not look natural.
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
lol at dreads look unnatural. Now the xenophobic retarded redneck claims to be the expert on this too. lololololololol.
Dreadlocks are an artificial hair style created by matting, backcombing, twist & rip, twist & pin, twisting, brush rubbing, dread braiding.
They are clearly not natural. No one's hair naturally grows as a dreadlock. Blacks create the dreadlock hairstyle since they cannot grow natural long hair, but as i said dreadlocks do not look natural.
Yea you are clueless, dreads can be created by simple twisting of the natural afro texture hair this is all.. If the hair is already matted that you want to able to dread.. Dreadlocks have to be put on non relaxed hair, please you aren't smart.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: [/UOTE]LOL and where is your argument? You have proven nothing here, you only spouted off your opinion and spammed the thread with photos, which you have yet to prove that a white European created that hair style, and do you have a comprehension problem? Where did I say that the relaxer wasn't used to straighten hair? Clearly I said there is a difference between relaxed hair and white peoples hair, they also don't look alike at all.
Wrong you're just another idiot that want to give the use of black hair styles and styles period away to white Europeans when those styles had nothing to do with white Europeans, whatsoever, neither did a white european invent the perm.
There is nothing white or european about the many hairstyles that black women utilize today, nothing you say is fact its purely your opinion, neither can you back up anything you say, and of course you have to piggy back off the white racist because you don't believe in blacks having something distinct for themselves.
And there you go again swearing you are defending black society by telling lies.
quote:
LOL LMBAO and what do I have to tell a lie about? Again please tell me the white European that created that hair style that the black women were wearing? Its a fact that those blk women created their own styles, not only with their regular hair but with braids. LOL!
quote:Again more bullshit and personal opinions, the use of relaxers were used for manageability thats how it was in the past,
Show me where ancient Africans ever used chemical relaxers to straighten their hair.....
quote:
Again are you brain dead? In my earlier post I said the chemical relaxer hadn't been invented yet so they couldn't use of course, but obviously they made use of dying their hair blond and red though, but its a fact that the chemical relaxer was used for manageblity.
There is indeed something white or European about African American hairstyles when their hair matches those created by Europeans and promoted by white European fashion, entertainment and cosmetic companies.
quote:
LOL and you are going to have to prove that, them having the same hair styles once in a gray moon doesn't mean that they got it from whites, so you are going to have to prove that whites invented those hairstyles..
quote:
How on earth do you try and pretend that this somehow came about other than by direct overt influence?
quote:
And why on earth do you pretend like you are bringing some great knowledge when youre not, your whole post is based off your opinions, neither can you back it up with any facts what so ever.
That is what I mean by you are simply lying.
quote:
Then you make up these bogus strawmen to dance around the fact that you are simply promoting pure nonsense by denying the historical reality of European cultural and social domination in America.
LOL and your ass is denying black contribution in America society all to push some nonsensical agenda about hair relaxers, what are you a female? Why are you tied up into hair relaxers etc..
Give me a break. These hairstyles are identical and originate in the same place: White European culture. LOL umm since when did wearing your hair down become a white thing? LOL
LOL umm since when did wearing your hair down become a white thing? LOL
LOL you post a picture of a white female wearing her hair down and a black female wearing a Indian weave, and you think this some how proves your point?
Again, all of these images are taken directly from Loreal's facebook page. Again, Loreal does not make products to promote African natural hairstyles or textures. They promote white European hairstyles and textures and hence most of the African American women on their site and who promote their products in fashion and entertainment are promoting and wearing white European hair styles and textures. Because straight hair is not natural to most African Americans. So don't give me that crap that African Americans straighten their hair simply because they are creative and not because of any influence of white European culture or a desire to adopt white European hairstyles, because they do it every day.
LOL and you are a fcking idiot, if you believe this some how means that black women hairstyles are influenced by whites, and not their own I suggest you go get a black hairstyle magazine and a white magazine and you will see a big difference, not only that who the fck is natural now a days? No one hardly everyone uses something to change up their hair and make it different so you again made a long ass nonsensical post that doesn't prove your point.
quote:
So like I said you are lying out of your teeth when the facts are staring you in the face. .
LOL and you are lying and twisting the facts which is blacks created their own styles independent of whites, most people here will agree buddy. [/QUOTE] Euronut, none of the things you are saying are supported by facts. Throughout their history in the United States, African Americans have adopted the style and fashion of the European dominant culture. And the predominant influence in America is from European American culture onto African American culture. You don't see most white women trying to make their hair curly or kinky now do you. Yet you see black women spending billions of dollars every year to make their hair straight like white women. And you sit here and claim that they do this, just because they are creative as Africans. Please. The point is that they straighten their hair because they want to look like the white women on TV, in fashion and on the beauty Ads. There is no other reason.
You have yet to show where Africans ever did this prior to being in America. Africans wore their hair natural, whether kinky, curly or in between. There was no reason to make it straight if it was not already straight.
So the answer remains, why do the majority of African American women want to make their hair straight? And why is it that the majority of white European American women do not want to make their hair kinky?
That is the issue. And the answer is simply because America is a European dominated society and culture and African Americans are adopting the styles and fashions of the dominant culture.
Denying it doesn't make you strong, it makes you weak because you are simply lying and trying to get around facts that are uncomfortable.
Straight hair is not a natural hairstyle or texture for most Africans in America and only is natural for white women in America and if that is the style of hair Africans in America are adopting, it is because they want to look like white women, especially when they dye their hair blonde as well. None of that has anything to do with ancient Africa, ancient Egypt or anything else other than the current domination of American culture by white Europeans.
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
Euronut, none of the things you are saying are supported by facts. Throughout their history in the United States, African Americans have adopted the style and fashion of the European dominant culture.
And your proof is exactly? The facts say that there was influence going both ways not just one way. Today there is hardly anything that black americans have adopted from white americans why because they would be completely ostracized and labeled as white washed, most blacks know this unless you're not a black american?
And the predominant influence in America is from European American culture onto African American culture. You don't see most white women trying to make their hair curly or kinky now do you.
LOL yes many white women of the past and even today adopted styles of black women plenty..
Yet you see black women spending billions of dollars every year to make their hair straight like white women.
LOL again this has nothing to do with white women and everything to do with manageability not to be white.
And you sit here and claim that they do this, just because they are creative as Africans. Please. The point is that they straighten their hair because they want to look like the white women on TV, in fashion and on the beauty Ads. There is no other reason.
LOL whomp whomp there is no style that white women have that black women want to emulate whatsoever none, most of the styles that whites have is again seen as ugly and uncool to most blks, segregation made a even bigger impact of blk society why? Because than they were able to create their own distinct culture separate from whites.
You have yet to show where Africans ever did this prior to being in America. Africans wore their hair natural, whether kinky, curly or in between. There was no reason to make it straight if it was not already straight.
LOL again the chemical relaxer wasn't created, but you have no evidence that once it was created or if they did it themselves that they wouldn't had used it.
So the answer remains, why do the majority of African American women want to make their hair straight? And why is it that the majority of white European American women do not want to make their hair kinky?
Again for manageability curly hair can sometimes have the look of being unkempt and uncombed not only that its the factor of having to take care of it, but there are plenty of white women and whites that utilize black hairstyles and mannerisms
That is the issue. And the answer is simply because America is a European dominated society and culture and African Americans are adopting the styles and fashions of the dominant culture.
LOL wrong both groups dominate in the world of fashion as well as entertainment especially blacks, hell entertainment and fashion are both intertwined, its blacks for the most part who set the standards because everybody has this belief that blacks are cool and whites are uppity and snobbish.
Denying it doesn't make you strong, it makes you weak because you are simply lying and trying to get around facts that are uncomfortable.
LOL no you are simply one of those brainwashed you know what, I'm not going to even use the word but its obvious you sitting up here trying to deny the fact that there was influence going back and forth that blacks have been the biggest ones setting the trends.
Straight hair is not a natural hairstyle or texture for most Africans in America and only is natural for white women in America and if that is the style of hair Africans in America are adopting, it is because they want to look like white women,
Wrong! And this is where you fall off there is nothing natural about any of the hair products today many white women are perming straightening dying and doing stuff to their own hair, just because black women and white women do certain things especially black women doesn't mean we want to some how be white, because white women are one not the only ones in the country with straight hair just like black women arent the only ones in the country with fat asses, but if we use you analogy when white women do most of the stuff that they do they must want to be black? Or is this only preserved for blk women?
especially when they dye their hair blonde as well. None of that has anything to do with ancient Africa, ancient Egypt or anything else other than the current domination of American culture by white Europeans. [/QB]
Yea again its all about adopting a new style blond hair is a rare hair color and fits many black women with that have a certain skin tone and believe it or not some black women do have hair that is naturally blond Its all about the trend, many black women have decided to go back to rocking fros, whats the reason for this? Is it because they some how want to do it because of white women?
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
^ Can you stop the self-hate?
Since when did black woman have natural blonde hair?
They don't.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
Here is what a black looks like when they dye their hair blonde -
In contrast here is a natural blonde haired white woman -
Blacks cannot get close to whites in beauty. Negroid physical features (wooly hair, thick lips, dark skin, wide noses etc) are universally considered to be not attractive. Everyone knows this. Just look above.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
lol at dreads look unnatural. Now the xenophobic retarded redneck claims to be the expert on this too. lololololololol.
Dreadlocks are an artificial hair style created by matting, backcombing, twist & rip, twist & pin, twisting, brush rubbing, dread braiding.
They are clearly not natural. No one's hair naturally grows as a dreadlock. Blacks create the dreadlock hairstyle since they cannot grow natural long hair, but as i said dreadlocks do not look natural.
Retarded redneck, Dreads can grow naturally. All the above you claimed and quoted, is to make it appear more fine. It has nothing to do with dreads themselves growing naturally. when nappy hair grows it naturally becomes dread like. When it grows long enough it becomes long dreadlocks.
Hence the word: lock. The hair is locked naturally into a dread
Real Rastafarians never alter the process of their dreads. They let nature take its course.
Get it, retarded redneck. Smh.
Whether you think its naturally looking or not is completely irrelevant.
Examples of the beginning stages...
Babies hair,
^ no, they aren't Asians.lol
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: Here is what a black looks like when they dye their hair blonde.
?lol
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
EuroNutSlayer wrote:
quote: Again you made this long ass post that made you look like an emotional female
bwahahahahahahaha!!
Now you know why Doug is known around this forum as "She-Male Jenkins".
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: ^ Can you stop the self-hate?
Since when did black woman have natural blonde hair?
They don't.
Ok it's not a female,
Posted by madness ensues (Member # 15917) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: Here is what a black looks like when they dye their hair blonde -
In contrast here is a natural blonde haired white woman -
Blacks cannot get close to whites in beauty. Negroid physical features (wooly hair, thick lips, dark skin, wide noses etc) are universally considered to be not attractive. Everyone knows this. Just look above.
Now you're talking! Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
^ Yep. Everyone agrees black woman are ugly. Even the black males on this forum drool over white woman. Blacks self-hate their features and crave white genes.
Posted by element (Member # 19569) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: Here is what a black looks like when they dye their hair blonde -
In contrast here is a natural blonde haired white woman -
@ cassiterides.. hold up!
you forgot to include her sisters. who also have moles on their lips & a birthmark on their cheeks.
Blacks cannot get close to whites in beauty. Negroid physical features (wooly hair, thick lips, dark skin, wide noses etc) are universally considered to be not attractive. Everyone knows this. Just look above.
. . . I see dyed hair, eye contacts & blotchy pink skin on her cheek..which is still visible after her makeover.
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: ^ Yep. Everyone agrees black woman are ugly. Even the black males on this forum drool over white woman. Blacks self-hate their features and crave white genes.
LOL look at this ret8arded c8nt is yourself esteem so low that you have to vie for attention, from people that you believe are inferior?
LOL what a pathetic tramp you are, is this why you spend your time on a mostly black forum? Trying to promote white h8es that look 60 at the age of 25? Hoe sit cho ass down no one thinks that plain jane white hoes are pretty, the only good looking ones are the ones that are mixed hence why everybody voted for mixed women, not fast aging white hoes like you.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
quote:Originally posted by element: I see dyed hair, eye contacts & blotchy pink skin on her cheek..which is still visible after her makeover.
She is a natural blue eyed blonde. Her name is Danielle trixie. She is an adult model, and lists her natural hair colour as blonde on her website and in magazine interviews.
Basically you have to stoop so low to deny she is a natural blonde because you are amazed by her beauty. Black woman in contrast are hideous.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: ^ Can you stop the self-hate?
Since when did black woman have natural blonde hair?
They don't.
Clearly you are reta8rded black Americans can have natural blond hair just like they can have natural blue eyes
black african people with natural/blond blue eyes aswell as Islanders-
Those are Australoids, not Blacks. Note even that the video title is highlighted with ". Its not claiming they are Black Africans. Once again you have proven yourself as a retard.
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
Black baby with natural blond hair-
Black woman with dyed blond hair that looks better than most white hoes with blond hair---
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
Negroids do not have blonde hair.
Once again, stop the self-hate and just admit what your race looks like.
Next you will probably be claiming Negroids have pale white skin.
Its very bizarre. Your self-hate is causing you to claim white features are black.
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer:
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: ^ Can you stop the self-hate?
Since when did black woman have natural blonde hair?
They don't.
Clearly you are reta8rded black Americans can have natural blond hair just like they can have natural blue eyes
black african people with natural/blond blue eyes aswell as Islanders-
Those are Australoids, not Blacks. Note even that the video title is highlighted with ". Its not claiming they are Black Africans. Once again you have proven yourself as a retard.
Uhh retard did you watch the video? At he begging it said Africans and Islanders with blond hair and blue eyes, now go back and watch you dumb ass.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer: [QB] Black baby with natural blond hair-
That child is clearly mixed race, not black. Though under your racial classification scheme anyone with dark skin (even a mild tan) you equate to 'black', so i'm probably wasting my time trying to educate you.
You have made it clear you are not educated. There is far more to race than skin pigmentation.
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: Negroids do not have blonde hair.
Once again, stop the self-hate and just admit what your race looks like.
Next you will probably be claiming Negroids have pale white skin.
Its very bizarre. Your self-hate is causing you to claim white features are black.
LOL bitch sit down somewhere, majority of the white caucasiods that you post, were always clearly mixed race, so why don't you stop your self hate tell the white bitches to stop getting ass implants stop getting lip injections stop getting breast implants, stop tanning to look ethnic and embrace what god gave them, because none of the above white women have naturally.
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer: [QB] Black baby with natural blond hair-
That child is clearly mixed race, not black. Though under your racial classification scheme anyone with dark skin (even a mild tan) you equate to 'black', so i'm probably wasting my time trying to educate you.
You have made it clear you are not educated. There is far more to race than skin pigmentation.
Are you mentally handicap? The black baby is a black American, you do understand that black americans are generational mixed? That baby has two black parents retard thus making him black of African descent and HE IS majority black.
You are the same little retarded cunt that used the racial reality website so the only one who seems uneducated is you. Don't get pissed because blacks have everything that whites have,plus look better than your people when we have it LOL!
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer: Uhh retard did you watch the video? At he begging it said Africans and Islanders with blond hair and blue eyes, now go back and watch you dumb ass.
The video is of Australoids, not Negroids. There are only two African-Americans in that video.
Blue eyes are exclusive to Caucasoids. Bear in mind something like 60% of African Americans have Caucasoid genes through admixture, its really not surprising blue eyes appear in an extreme minority of African-Americans through their partial white ancestry.
The people today with the highest recognised populations of blue eyes are Caucasoids (particuarly of Europe). Around 75% of Germans have blue eyes.
Blue eyes are not found in pure-blooded Negroids. They are not a Negroid trait.
Most black woman today however crave light eyes like white woman so buy eye contacts, just how they straighten their hair to look more like whites as well.
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:
quote:Originally posted by element: I see dyed hair, eye contacts & blotchy pink skin on her cheek..which is still visible after her makeover.
She is a natural blue eyed blonde. Her name is Danielle trixie. She is an adult model, and lists her natural hair colour as blonde on her website and in magazine interviews.
Basically you have to stoop so low to deny she is a natural blonde because you are amazed by her beauty. Black woman in contrast are hideous.
lol RETARD the truth is majority of your people have neither blond hair nor blue eyes, most of you white women are bleach blonds, not natural at all. In fact only 1-2 percent of your population has blond hair, and even less of you have red hair, so please with out the hair dye or the makeup white women are ugly ass ****, I mean really? At the age of 25 white women look 60 years old, which is why white men are always trading white women in for someone younger.
LOL but something like this rarely if ever happens to black women.
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer: Uhh retard did you watch the video? At he begging it said Africans and Islanders with blond hair and blue eyes, now go back and watch you dumb ass.
The video is of Australoids, not Negroids. There are only two African-Americans in that video.
Blue eyes are exclusive to Caucasoids. Bear in mind something like 60% of African Americans have Caucasoid genes through admixture, its really not surprising blue eyes appear in an extreme minority of African-Americans through their partial white ancestry.
The people today with the highest recognised populations of blue eyes are Caucasoids (particuarly of Europe). Around 75% of Germans have blue eyes.
Blue eyes are not found in pure-blooded Negroids. They are not a Negroid trait.
Most black woman today however crave light eyes like white woman so buy eye contacts, just how they straighten their hair to look more like whites as well.
LOL stupid sit your retarded ass down clearly you didn't watch the video because there were no Afro-Americans in that video those people were Africans and Islanders Meles, not Aussies retard, not only that there are indeed populations in Africa without admixture from caucasions with blue or green eyes, so what are you talking about?
Whites are far from pure being 1/3 African and 2/3 Asian idiot, black Americans have very little admixture in their gene pool and it isn't enough to change their phenotype, black americans mostly descend from present day Nigeria and Nigerians are known for having light eyes in their population without admixture so please save it.
Heck there was a white baby with blue eyes just born to a Nigerian couple.
Not only that albinism is common in the Nigerian population and thats pretty much all blue/green eyes are a form of albinism..
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer: Don't get pissed because blacks have everything that whites have,plus look better than your people when we have it LOL!
Blacks don't have white features. Are you for real?
So are you now saying blacks have pale white skin, thin noses and straight hair?
You have deep insecurities.
Even the most militant afrocentrics on this forum admit whites have features blacks don't e.g. straight hair and light pigmentation.
I really don't understand your logic. If you are claiming black people have all white features, then why are you calling black people black and white people white?
If what you are saying is true, then there would be no phenotypic difference between the races.
But this is clearly refuted by common observation.
Please tell me you are just a parody account. Otherwise your self-hate is the worst i have yet come across.
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
Blacks don't have white features. Are you for real?So are you now saying blacks have pale white skin, thin noses and straight hair?
LOL black people don't have pale white skin for the most part thank GOD, but some do have pale white skin of course like the baby that was just born to the nigerian couple, but yes blacks have high bridge noses, and straight hair both of those traits are not a race thing, the only thing that whites have that rarely no one has unless there Africans is pale skin, the other traits can be found in other populations.-
You have deep insecurities. Even the most militant afrocentrics on this forum admit whites have features blacks don't e.g. straight hair and light pigmentation.
LOL the only insecure one is the idiot that has to promote his own people on a majority black forum to blacks, are you so desperate, that you want black people to desire you so much?
Most of the features whites have can be found in black African or Island Mele populations.
I really don't understand your logic. If you are claiming black people have all white features, then why are you calling black people black and white people white?
LOL I don't get you? There isn't one set of features that whites have to themselves except white skin.
If what you are saying is true, then there would be no phenotypic difference between the races.
There hardly is one.
But this is clearly refuted by common observation. :confused:Please tell me you are just a parody account. Otherwise your self-hate is the worst i have yet come across.
LOL the self hater is the one that is promoting his own people on a majority black forum, because you have low self esteem, if you didn't you wouldn't have to put down others, the truth is white women change there appearance far more than blk women period.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer: but some do have pale white skin of course like the baby that was just born to the nigerian couple
That is called atavism or the re-emergence of genes. It happens in South Africa to white parents who have black children.
This happens since many White South Africans in South Africa have partial black ancestry through admixture.
Ever heard of Sandra Liang?
Both her biological parents were white. But since she had a black ancestor 400 years back, those genes resurfaced. Both her siblings however were white. And this happens vice-versa. Blacks in America can give birth to white looking children because they have white admixture in their family tree.
This is though very rare. It does though highlight the dangers of race mixing. There is no way to get rid of another races genes and they can resurface at anytime.
quote:but yes blacks have high bridge noses, and straight hair both of those traits are not a race thing,
Races differ in hair texture, cranial formation, nose shape etc. Negroids do not have orthognathic faces or thin noses, nor do they have straight hair.
Negroids are wooly haired, wide (platyrrhine) nosed and have prognathic lower jaws.
Caucasoids in contrast are straight-wavy haired, thin lepphortine nosed and orthognathic (no prognathism).
You don't need even skin on a Caucasoid or Negroid to tell them apart, you can identify them by their distinct crania and morphology.
Caucasoids have a nasal sill or rim, Negroids however don't. Basically there are hundreds of different distinctions between the races. In your bizarre racial classification however you base it solely on pigmentation. You clearly have never studied physical anthropology.
And i see you are still denying basic facts.
Negroids do not have straight hair.
quote: Most of the features whites have can be found in black African or Island Mele populations.
Nope they can't.
quote: LOL I don't get you? There isn't one set of features that whites have to themselves except white skin.
Completely wrong. As i stated you are delusional and think race is only about skin pigment.
'White' as in 'white people' (Caucasoid, Europid) does not mean literally pale/white skinned. There is a whole different criteria in the classification.
You don't even need to see the skin of someone to classify them as Caucasoid, you only have to look at their crania.
Negroid and Caucasoid crania are nothing a like.
quote: LOL the self hater is the one that is promoting his own people on a majority black forum, because you have low self esteem, if you didn't you wouldn't have to put down others, the truth is white women change there appearance far more than blk women period.
Black woman straighten their hair to look like white woman.
In contrast whites are not trying to make their hair wooly or like afro's.
Why?
Because no one likes wooly hair. Its ugly. Even blacks themseleves admit it is, which is why they call ''good'' hair the straight hair whites have. They self-admit their own wooly hair texture is 'bad'. That is what self-hate is.
Self-hate exists in blacks because they have physical features which are not attractive. You don't though see any other race with the same problems.
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer: but some do have pale white skin of course like the baby that was just born to the nigerian couple
quote: [QB][QUOTE]That is called atavism or the re-emergence of genes. It happens in South Africa to white parents who have black children.
And there is no proof that that black couple had white ancestry, so next lie idiot, Nigeria for the most part is black unlike South Africa who had black Africans and white Europeans living with each other.
This happens since many White South Africans in South Africa have partial black ancestry through admixture.
Ever heard of Sandra Liang?
Both her biological parents were white. But since she had a black ancestor 400 years back, those genes resurfaced. Both her siblings however were white. And this happens vice-versa. Blacks in America can give birth to white looking children because they have white admixture in their family tree.
Again nitwit that was in South AFRICA, where blacks and whites actually lived together not Nigeria a black country
This is though very rare. It does though highlight the dangers of race mixing. There is no way to get rid of another races genes and they can resurface at anytime.
Yea you are a retard please don't speak whites are 1/3 African and 2/3 Asian
quote:but yes blacks have high bridge noses, and straight hair both of those traits are not a race thing,
Races differ in hair texture, cranial formation, nose shape etc. Negroids do not have orthognathic faces or thin noses, nor do they have straight hair.
You have already been debunked already all groups have orthognathic and progthanic in their populations, I already highlighted that black Africans that live below the Sahara are the most diverse in hair form cranial formation aswell as noses, high bridge noses isn't a white thing nor is it a Asian thing.
Negroids are wooly haired, wide (platyrrhine) nosed and have prognathic lower jaws.
Retard your stupid ass has been debunked please bitch get some new material.
Caucasoids in contrast are straight-wavy haired, thin lepphortine nosed and orthognathic (no prognathism).
Youre a liar there are loads OF europeans that are prognathism).
You don't need even skin on a Caucasoid or Negroid to tell them apart, you can identify them by their distinct crania and morphology.
Youre a dumbass caucasuid was thrown out a long time ago, there is no such thing as a caucasiod idiot.-
Caucasoids have a nasal sill or rim, Negroids however don't. Basically there are hundreds of different distinctions between the races. In your bizarre racial classification however you base it solely on pigmentation. You clearly have never studied physical anthropology.
Obviously you haven't you retard everything you have stated has been debunked.
And i see you are still denying basic facts.
Negroids do not have straight hair.
Uhh yes they do people have shown you Africans with straight hair.
quote: Most of the features whites have can be found in black African or Island Mele populations.
Nope they can't.
quote: LOL I don't get you? There isn't one set of features that whites have to themselves except white skin.
Completely wrong. As i stated you are delusional and think race is only about skin pigment.
'White' as in 'white people' (Caucasoid, Europid) does not mean literally pale/white skinned. There is a whole different criteria in the classification.
LOL stupid bitch if you are going to have the same strict classifications for blacks its the same for white people.
You don't even need to see the skin of someone to classify them as Caucasoid, you only have to look at their crania.
LOL youre and idiot I bet you think whites and Indians are related lol what a dumb ****
Negroid and Caucasoid crania are nothing a like.
quote: LOL the self hater is the one that is promoting his own people on a majority black forum, because you have low self esteem, if you didn't you wouldn't have to put down others, the truth is white women change there appearance far more than blk women period.
Black woman straighten their hair to look like white woman.
In contrast whites are not trying to make their hair wooly or like afro's.
LOL but white bithces wear common Black hair styles they get butt implants botox for their lips and they also tan their skin everything that is natural to black women, all you have is hair.
Posted by element (Member # 19569) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:
quote:Originally posted by element: I see dyed hair, eye contacts & blotchy pink skin on her cheek..which is still visible after her makeover.
She is a natural blue eyed blonde. Her name is Danielle trixie. She is an adult model, and lists her natural hair colour as blonde on her website and in magazine interviews.
Basically you have to stoop so low to deny she is a natural blonde because you are amazed by her beauty. Black woman in contrast are hideous.
Ive compiled my images to clarify my position..
Posted by EuroNutSlayer (Member # 19578) on :
The troll patrol had debunked the retarded cassiterides earlier lets do a recap of what he said.--
Hi there again, retarded redneck.
Prognathism has been discussed and explained already a dozen times. So I will not go over it again, in detail.
What you shown is not representative for sub Saharan Africans.
Negroid - 48 to 53, mesorrhinic (intermediate). lol
This also goes for prognathism. As has been shown many times before, this too is intermediate. lol
From Charlie Bass : Prognathism is a normal characteristic found in all populations. It does not mean "Negro" any more than orthognathism means "Caucasoid." An aboriginal African skeletal population may be orthognathic without indicating "Hamitic" migrations; Egyptians may be prognathic without implying "Negro" penetration; and a single population may have (should have) both prognathic and orthognathic individuals without being considered a "mixed" population.
More on Skeletal Analysis and the Race Concept Author(s): John H. RobertsonSource: Current Anthropology, Vol. 20, No. 3 (Sep., 1979), pp. 617-619Published by: The University of Chicago Press on behalf of Wenner-Gren Foundation for AnthropologicalResearchStable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/2742137 .Accessed: 26/12/2010 09:27
Posted by TruthAndRights (Member # 17346) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
lol at dreads look unnatural. Now the xenophobic retarded redneck claims to be the expert on this too. lololololololol.
Dreadlocks are an artificial hair style created by matting, backcombing, twist & rip, twist & pin, twisting, brush rubbing, dread braiding.
They are clearly not natural. No one's hair naturally grows as a dreadlock. Blacks create the dreadlock hairstyle since they cannot grow natural long hair, but as i said dreadlocks do not look natural.
Retarded redneck, Dreads can grow naturally. All the above you claimed and quoted, is to make it appear more fine. It has nothing to do with dreads themselves growing naturally. when nappy hair grows it naturally becomes dread like. When it grows long enough it becomes long dreadlocks.
Hence the word: lock. The hair is locked naturally into a dread
Real Rastafarians never alter the process of their dreads. They let nature take its course.
Get it, retarded redneck. Smh.
Whether you think its naturally looking or not is completely irrelevant.
Examples of the beginning stages...
Babies hair,
^ no, they aren't Asians.lol
CA-SH*T-HE-RIDES with his dunce-bat Black People infatuated and obsessed-self fails to real-eyes that "matting, backcombing, twist & rip, twist & pin, twisting, brush rubbing, dread braiding" is how YTE PEOPLE artificially lock their hair into dreadlocks...smh...
We, speaking as a Black Woman who has been wearing her crown of locks for well over a decade now, need only let it grow Naturally and no comb it, and/or just twist it, and it will lock and grow suh....nothing else necessary....because it's a NATURAL TING....
Most yte people including and especially CA-SH*T-HE-RIDES do not overstand exactly what a 'Natural hairstyle' is when it comes to Black Women... lol
As a Black Woman, I do find it interesting that MEN are here arguing over WOMEN'S hair...lol....especially a YTE MAN, but then...it's been mentioned time and again that there is someting to be said bout this yte man who is so obsessed and infatuated with Black People and can't stay away from us...
I've never ina mi life eva had my hair treated with chemicals...the females ina mi family are not raised dem ways deh...we have always been taught that our Blackness and everything about it is our Natural Beauty...try look like yte gyal fe wah? smh kmrt
Carry on....lol...
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: Those are Australoids, not Blacks. Note even that the video title is highlighted with ". Its not claiming they are Black Africans. Once again.. blah blah blah... baa .. baa..baa
So says Junior the Retard Ninja!
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
There are already plenty of threads on this forum that talk about whites adopting trends and styles from Africans in the diaspora.
Not a word by me, about whites adopting African styles or vice versa. You are so hung up on "who copied who", that you "see" it everywhere; so much so that you mistook my message for its anti-thesis.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
Before:
After:
Doug doesn't seem to have a problem with the fact that this white girl's natural hair was actually curlier than it was after hair treatment. Interesting. Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:
Somalis are 60% Caucasoid. This is FACT.
Can you share this "fact" with me; what is the name of the markers that constitute this 60%?
BTW, cassiterides thinks that anything short of an Afro, is tantamount to Blacks hating their own natural hair. However, whites can have all sorts of hairdos and they are still self-lovers, isn't that so, cassiterides?
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
You're about to lose again, as usually.
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:
Somalis are 60% Caucasoid. This is FACT.
60% of blah blah blah...
E1b1b1a. M78
The Northeast Africa-based E1b1b1a subclade is defined by SNP M78. Somalia, Sudan and Egypt are among the present day countries with very high frequencies (60-90%) of the E1b1b1a M78 subclade. The STR data also support its origin in this area with a TMRCA estimated at 14-23 kya. The frequency of this subclade drops dramatically in Sub-Saharan Africa.
E1b1b1a1b. V32
The E1b1b1a1b (V32) subclade is a descendant of E1b1b1a1 (V12). E1b1b1a1b/V32 is highest in Somalia (47-75%), Sudan (52%) and Ethiopia (40%). All these chromosomes detected to date fall into the East African M78 g microsatellite cluster, which is associated with Cushitic (Afro-Asiatic) language groups in Somalia, Ethiopia and Kenya.
As we can all see the "Eurasian' component ('light blue') is insignifigant in Ethiopians/Northeast Africans. So you can reburry that "admixture" theory in the same patch that you dug it up from!
Louisvilleslugger.
So the conclusion is, they are vastly African, by far. Hence pure Africans. Therefore you lost again, as ussually. And I win again, as ussually.
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
Well here's MY psychology on women's hair, since I didn't comment directly on it, after a response to the below series of posts.
quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer: This is really stupid Africans didn't utilize hair chemicals because they didn't have that out, in the past. This is something that most women us now including Africans themselves, so I don't get the issue?
Chemical relaxer could have very well been invented without slavery, who knows.
quote:Originally posted by madness ensues: ^ That woman, despite her perm, may love herself more than you could ever know.
You people don't understand that many people don't think much.
You're judging regular people by your neurotic over-thinking patterns (which is fine, for intellectuals with a problem to solve).
That's why the sheer amount of talking you do doesn't correlate with the actual answers you find.
Simple people need simple solutions to simple problems. The answer is simply getting the right information into their minds, which runs on auto-pilot most of the time.
quote:Originally posted by madness ensues: Once upon a time...women were ashamed of this:
But then came long this:
and this...
THEN EVERY MAN AND WOMAN CAUGHT AMNESIA and forgot that only Black people used to like their woman with a fat-laden ass
quote:Originally posted by madness ensues: With the same amount of media push, these could become the only type of hair women the world over want to have:
In most cases, it really doesn't have anything to do with self-hate. It's just group-think.
Although I'd say we're a ways off from "the only type" comment just above even if exaggerating a little what was meant, I agree whole-heartedly with the above string of posts.
My opinion though is that kinky hair is absolutely beautiful, stunning, gorgeous, and amazing; it has this exotic quality to it, so although it's rare its rarity may only buttress that appearance. There is nothing wrong with it.
The opposite, very straight hair such as that you see on Asian cuties (North East Asians, and cuties, because them Asians know cute when they see it) is its equal. I do associate this hair as the hair that females typically wear, well, because, they *wear* it.
I do gotta admitt though, white chicks hair is just freakin sexy to me! It just seems more readily available to run your hands through. Not to mention in a ponytail the potential to ... Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Here is an article from a black women's blog on the topic:
quote: 1.) The Homegirls.
More often then not, in a black hair commercial, you’ll find a group of women – the homegirls. Whether they’re in the bathroom getting ready for the club, out on the town, or even sitting around at lunch chatting and catching up, there will typically be at least two or three women involved. Somehow, the scene is always set against the tune of some bland, repetitive, hip-hop beat. And the conversation, though light and fun, is always discreetly laced with the most stereotypical black girl slang. Maybe I’m just out of the loop, but I can’t recall the last time I used phrases like "the bomb", "I’m about to hook you up", and "played out" amongst my friends. And all the neck rolling, gum-popping, and hair flipping to get a point across?! What’s up with that, America? Is that really how "we" act, as a whole? I can’t deal. 2.) The Same Look.
Though there are usually several women in the commercials, there is seldom much variety amongst the models’ looks and the hair styles that they wear. You can pretty much bet your last coin that all the women will have straightened hair of a dark brown or black hue. Now I can’t quite decide if this is because the products being advertised cater towards these specific looks, or if it’s because we’re to believe that straight, dark hair is more favorable than curly or colored hair. But I don’t like it, either way. I honestly can’t recall the last time I saw a commercial where women with natural or more unique hairstyles were represented, though these are the women I see out and about everyday. And I won’t even delve into the point that women who are clearly wearing weaves are often used to promote products that claim to strengthen and protect our own hair. Now, I’m currently and quite proudly wearing a partial sew-in myself, so this is in no way an anti-weave rant. However, if the products are supposed to make our natural hair fuller, healthier, and more shiny, the last thing I want to see is 8 ounces of Indian Remy being flipped and blown around, disguised as the results of a quality product. False advertising. 3.) The Problem.
From what I’ve noticed, black hair commercials almost always present a dilemma. Whether it’s “nappy” roots, fuzzy edges, or split ends – there is always some sort of problem to be corrected. Of course, I fully understand that products are created to correct specific hair concerns. However, why is it that we never see advertisements for basic, everyday products such as shampoo or deep conditioners. Are we, as black women, really only running to the haircare aisle when we need to zap new-growth with a relaxer or slick down "edges" with the latest, greatest gel or pomade?! I’d certainly beg to differ. While women of other ethnicities are regularly being offered quality products for routine maintenance and upkeep, it seems as though many of the ads geared specifically towards women of color are looking to fix our hair, as if it were a burden of some sort. It’s no coincidence that the vast majority of our commercials are for do-it-yourself relaxers. Where are the ads for natural haircare products? I’ll wait…
And if you have black hair care stores in your neighborhood, you will notice that the latest rage is to have floor to ceiling Ads for Remy hair extensions featuring black women with unnatural straight hair styles. Now claiming this is some sort of expression of creativity as opposed to crass commercialism by a hair care industry dominated by non blacks is ridiculous.
There are no palm trees in the Netherlands! LOL, Sad!!! Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Now compare these wanna be white hairstyles with authentic ancient African hairstyles. Yes, Africans were and are creative with their hair, but that has nothing to do with making it straight like Europeans.
Remy Indian hair styles for African American women:
And keep in mind this is just from Congo.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Doug your slave master now claims black cut their hair low because of self hate. Im sure he needs an internet feild nigger such as yourself to find bogus info to support his non sense..
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:
Not only the females, but also the men.
Black males, such as President Barack Obama, now keep their hair closely cropped to avoid being seen with “African” hair.
Go pick your master Ca-shitty's cotton...
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
Before:
After:
Doug doesn't seem to have a problem with the fact that this white girl's natural hair was actually curlier than it was after hair treatment. Interesting.
I have a problem with black women getting weaves, extensions and chemical processing in their hair to make it look like that girls hair before and after when it isn't their natural hair texture.
For example:
People on this thread who have been making clowns of themselves can continue to do so all they want. There is no denying the fact that the styles of hair on the black women above is all in an attempt to look like white women and has absolutely nothing to do with ancient African hair weaving traditions, which did not produce white European hair styles or textures.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Why you running around with a white European name you fake internet radical, you have self hate?? You think White names or better, the white man who owned or colonized your people told your peeps European names were better and now you Mom and Dad, self haters, named you the name of some Pink Pecker wood Englishman
......
Why are you speaking English Edi-Amin-Obenga, you got self hate because you speak a peckerwood language Edi??
LMFAO at this House Nigger..
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Edi-Amin-Obenga: People on this thread who have been making clowns of themselves can continue to do so all they want. There is no denying the fact that the styles of hair on the black women above is all in an attempt to look like white women and has absolutely nothing to do with ancient African hair weaving traditions, which did not produce white European hair styles or textures.
The only person making a clown of himself is you. You still have provided no evidence that AA women who get perms have self hate.
As your slave master said Black men get out hair cut low, very rarely are black men growing long hair, using your logic over 90% of black men are self haters..LOL
You are a clown, you can't even see how your slave mentality rhetoric glorifies the White man as if he were an Omnipotent god.
Back to the cotton feild nig.
Posted by BABA '70 (Member # 15917) on :
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Ill bet you "Doug"
1)can only speak English and/or another European Language(French, Spanish etc).
2)Lives in an All white or predominantly white neighbor hood.
3) Buys and supports European/White/Jewish owned bis.
4) has had sex with a white woman.
5) has his hair cut low so his boss/Wife/Freinds et al wont be offended by his nappy hair.
6)Dresses like a European/White man.
Fake internet thug, where is your proof that AA women have self hate, how are you any different..??
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
And for all those clowns defending this nonsense of black women who don't even wear their own hair anymore, why are you defending it? It isn't like blacks are making the majority of the money off it.
That right there is a pure example of the backwardness of some black folks who will take pride in something even when it is absolutely stupid and back assward.
Please save me that lame crap about this being some sort of "African" tradition when it isn't.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
^Tropical africans were "doing hair" including wigs and weaves for thousands of years without the need for any white "role models".
Hair recap
Ancient Egyptian hair
Across the web assorted "biodiversity" proponents, wage a 'racial war' using hair studies of ancient Egyptians to prove a "Caucasian Egypt". But in fact the hair of Africans is highly variable, debunking their simplistic claims.
The hair of Africans is highly variable, ranging from tight curls of South African Bantu, to the loose curls and straight hair of peoples of East and NE Africa, all indigenously evolved over millennia as part of Africa’s high genetic diversity. This diversity undermines and ultimately dismisses simplistic "racial" claims based on hair.
Inconsistencies of the skewed "true negro" model and definitions of African hair
Dubious assertions, double standards and outmoded racial hair claims: Czech anthropologist Strouhal's 1971 study touched on hair, and advanced the most extreme racial definitions, claiming Nubians to be white Europids overrun by later waves of Negroes, and that few Negroes appeared in Egypt until the New Kingdom. Indeed, Strouhal went so far as to argue that 'Negroes' failed to survive long in Egypt, because they were ill-adapted to its arid climate! Tell that to the Saharans, Sudanese and Nubians! Such dubious claims have been thoroughly debunked by modern scholarship, however they continue in various guises by those who attempt to use "hair" to assign race 'percents' and categories to the ancients. Attempts to define racial categories based on the ancient hair rely heavily on extreme definitions, with "Negroids" typically being defined as narrowly as possible. Everything not meeting the extreme "type" is then classified as something else, such as "Caucasian".
Kieta (1990, Studies of Crania from Northern Africa) notes that while many scholars in the field have used an extreme "true negro" definition for African peoples, few have attempted to apply the same model in reverse and define a "true white." Such racial double standards are typical of much scholarship on the ancient Nile Valley peoples. A consistent approach for example would define the straight hair in Strouhal's hair sample as an exclusive Caucasian marker (10 out of 49 or approximately 20%) and make the rest (wavy and curled) hybrid or negro, at >80%. Assorted writers who support the Aryan race percent model however, are careful to avoid such consistency and typically only run the comparison one way.
QUOTE: "Strouhal (1971) microscopically examined some hair which had been preserved on a Badarian skull. The analysis was interpreted as suggesting a stereotypical tropical African-European hybrid (mulatto). However this hair is grossly no different from that of Fulani, some Kanuri, or Somali and does not require a gene flow explanation any more than curly hair in Greece necessarily does. Extremely "wooly" hair is not the only kind native to tropical Africa.." (S. O. Y. Keita. (1993). "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54)
Disturbing attempts to use hair to prove race theories: Fletcher (2002) in Egyptian Hair and Wigs, gives an example of what she calls "disturbing attempts to use hair to prove assumptions of race and gender" involving 1800s European researcher F. Petrie, who sometimes sought to use excavation reports to prove his theories of Aegean settlers flowing into Egypt. Such disturbing attempts continue today in the use of hair for race category or percentage claims involving the ancient peoples, such as the "racial" analysis seen on several Internet blogs and websites, some thinly disguised fronts for neo-nazi groups or sympathizers.
Hair study applied a stereotyped "true negro" model and used late period samples of Egypt, after the coming of Greeks, Hyskos, etc as "representative" excluding the previous 2500 years of ancient civilization. A study of the hair of Egyptian mummies by Czech anthropologists Titlbachova and Titllbach (1977) (reported in Strouhal 1977) using only late period samples found a wide range of hair in mummies. Of the 14 samples, only 4 were from the south of Egypt, and none of the 14 samples were earlier than the 18th Dynasty. Essentially the previous 2,000 years + of Egyptain civilization and peopling are not represented. Only the narrowest definition is used to identify 'true negro' types'. All other intermediate types were deemed 'non-negroid.' If a similar procedure is used in reverse and designates only straight hair as a marker of a European, then only 4 out of 14 or 29% of the samples can be deemed "Caucasoid." Below is a breakdown of the Czech data:
Sample# 5- 18th-21st dynasties- Deir el medina- curly Sample# 8- 21st-25th dynasties- hair looks straight Sample# 11- Late to Greek Period- hair partly wavy Sample# 18- Late period Egypt- hair fine diameter Sample# 19- Greek period- wavy hair Sample# 29- 18-21st Dynasties- Deir El Medina- hair shape unascertainable - south Sample# 31- 18-21st dynasties- Deir El Median- wavy to curly - south Sample# 33- 21st-25th dynasties- appears straight Sample# 34- 21st-25th dynasties- shape difficult to determine Sample# 35- 21st-25th dynasties- wavy shape Sample# 40- 21-25th Dynasties- hair curly, Sample# 44- 21-25th Dynasties- appears straight Sample# 45- 21-25th Dynasties- appears wavy Sample# 46- Kharga Oasis- 4th-5th centuries AD
Using modern technology, the same Aryan Race models are undercut with the data actually showing that Egyptians group closer to Africans than vaunted white Nordics.
[1]"Nordic hair measurements"[/i]
Neo-Nazis and sympathizers tout the work of German researcher Pruner-Bey in the 1800s which derived racial indexes of hair including Negroes, Egyptians and Germans. Germanic hair is closer to that of the Egyptians they assert. But is it as they claim?
(Data of Bruner-Bey 1864- 'On human hair as a race character') - Negroid index: 57.40 - Egyptian index: 69.94 - White Germans: 66.33 Neo-Nazi conclusion: White German Nordics are 'closer' to Egyptians
Modern data using electron microscopes- Conti-Fuhrman & Massa (1972). Massa and Masali (1980)
Compare to Pruner Bey's 1864 data: - Negroid index: 57.40 - Egyptian index: 60.02 (modern electron microscope data) White Germans: 66.33 ______________________________________________________________________________ Conclusion using modern microscope data: Negroes much ‘closer’ to Egyptians than Nordics _____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Using hair for race identification as older research does can be shaky, but even when used, it undercuts ‘Aryan” clams as shown above.
Fletcher 2002 decries “"disturbing attempts to use hair to prove assumptions of race and gender..” Other credible scientists note:
"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories. Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as 1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically indistinguishable". --Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2
Environmental factors can influence hair color, and the Egyptians routinely placed hair from different sources in mummy wrappings, making claims of "Nordic-haired" or "white" Egyptians dubious.
Mummification practices and dyeing of hair. Hair studies of mummies note that color is often influenced by environmental factors at burial sites. Brothwell and Spearman (1963) point out that reddish-brown ancient color hair is usually the result of partial oxidation of the melanin pigment. Other causes of hair color "blonding" involve bleaching, caused by the alkaline in the mummification process. Color also varies due to the Egyptian practice of dyeing hair with henna. Other samples show individuals lightening the hair using vegetable colorants. Thus variations in hair color among mummies do not necessarily suggest the presence of blond or red-haired Europeans or Near Easterners flitting about Egypt before being mummified, but the influence of environmental factors.
Egyptian practice of putting locks of hair in mummy wrappings. Racial analysis is also made problematic by the Egyptian practice of burying hair, in many "votive or funerary deposits buried separately from the body, a practice found from Predynastic to Roman times despite its frequent omission from excavation reports." (Fletcher 2002) In examining hair samples Fletcher (2004) notes that care is needed to determine what is natural scalp hair, versus hair from a wig, versus hair extensions to natural locks. Tracking the exact source of hair is also critical since the Egyptians were known to have placed locks of hair from different sources among mummy wrappings. (The Search for Nefertiti, By Joann Fletcher, HarperCollins, 2004, p. 93-94, 96)
Egyptians shaved much of their natural hair off and used wigs extensively as covering, obtaining much of the hair for wigs through trade. Discoveries" of "Aryan" or 'Nordic" hair are thus hardly 'proof' of incoming Caucasoids, but may be simply hair purchased from some source and made into a wig. This is much less dramatic than the exciting picture of inflowing 'Aryan' hordes.
The ancient Egyptians shaved off much of their own natural hair as a matter of personal hygiene and custom, and wore wigs in public. According to the Encyclopedia of body adornment (Margo DeMello, 2007, Greenwood Publishing Group, p. 101), "Boys and girls until puberty wore their hair shaved except for a side locl left on the side of their head. Many adults- both men and women- also shaved their hair as a way of coping with heat and lice. However, adults did not go about bald, and instead wore wigs in public and in private.. Wigs were initially worn by the elites, but later worn by women of all classes.."
The widespread use of wigs in ancient Egypt thus complicates and contradicts attempts at 'racial' analysis. Fletcher (2002) shows that many Egyptian wigs have been found with what is defined as straighter 'cynotrichous' hair. This however is hardly a marker of massive European or Near Eastern presence or admixture. Fletcher notes that the Egyptians often eschewed their own personal hair, shaving carefully and using wigs widely. The hair for these wigs was often obtained through trade. Indeed, "hair itself being a valuable commodity ranked alongside gold and incense in account lists from the town of Kahun." Image gallery | Articles | Google
Egyptian trading links with other regions is well known, and a commodity like straighter 'cynotrichous' hair could have been easily obtained via the Sahara, Levant, the Maghreb, Mediterranean contacts, or even the hair of Asiatic war captives or casualties from Egypt's numerous conflicts. There is little need to postulate mass influxes of European admixtures or populations to account for hair types in wigs. The limb proportion studies of the ancient Egyptians showing them to be much more related to tropical types than to Europids, is further demonstration of the fallacy of using hair as 'proof' of a 'Aryan' or predominantly European admixed Egypt.
Nubian wigs and wigs in Egypt
Such exchanges or use of hair appear elsewhere in the Nile valley. Tomb finds show Nubians themselves wearing wigs of straight hair. But one Nubian from the Royal valley, of the 12th century, named Maherpra, was found to be wearing a wig himself, made up of tightly curled 'negroid' hair, on top of his natural covering (Fletcher 2002). The so-called "Nubian wig" also appears in Egyptian art relief's depicting daily life, a stylistic arrangement thought to imitate those found in southern Egypt or Nubia. Such wigs appear to have been popular with both Egyptians and Nubians. Fletcher 2004 notes that the famous queen Nefertiti made frequent use of the Nubian wig: "Nefertiti and her daughter seem to have set a trend for wearing the Nubian wig.. a coiffure first worn by Nubian mercenaries and clearly associated with the military." A detail of a wall scene in Theban tomb TT.55 shows the queen wearing the Nubian wig. Infantrymen from the Nubia. Note both bow and battle-axe carried into combat.
Nubian infantrymen shown with distinctive Nubian wig. From Deir el-Bahri, Temple of Hatshepsut New Kingdom, Eighteenth Dynasty, 1480 B.C.
Hair studies of Nubians show built-in African genetic variability
Hair studies of Nubians have also been undertaken. One study at Semna, in Nubia (Daniel Hrdy 1978- Analysis of Hair Samples of Mummies from Semna South, American Journal of Physical Anthropology, (1978) 49: 277-262), found curling patterns intermediate between Northwest European and African samples. The X-group, especially males, showed more African elements than the Meroitic in the curling variables. Crimping and curvature data patterned in a northwest Europe direction. These data plots however do not necessarily indicate race admixture or percentages, or the presence of European migrants or colonists (see Keita 2005 below), but rather a data pattern of variation in how hair curls, and native African diversity which cases substantial overlap with non-African groups. This is a routine occurrence within human groups.
Africa has the highest phenotypic variation, just as it has the highest geentic variation- accommodating a wide range of features for its peoples without the need for any "race mix: Relethford (2001) shows that ".. methods for estimating regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic studies." (Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5, October 2001, pp. 629-636) Hanihara 2003 notes that [significant] "..intraregional diversity are present in Subsaharan Africans.." While ancient Egypt had gene flow in various eras, hair variations easily fall under this pattern of built-in, indigenous diversity, as well as the above noted cultural practice of using wigs with hair from different places obtained through trade.
Among Europeans for example, some people have curlier hair and some have straighter hair than others. Various peoples of East and West Africa also have narrow noses, which are different from other peoples elsewhere in Africa, nevertheless they still remain Africans. DNA studies also note greater variation within selected populations that without. Since Africa has the highest genetic diversity in the world, such routine variation in characteristics such as hair need not indicate any racial percentage or admixture, but simply part of the built-in genetic diversity of the ancient peoples on the continent. Indeed, the Semna study author notes that blondism, especially in young children, is common in many dark-haired populations (e.g., Australian, Melanesian), and is still found in some Nubian villages. As regards hair color variation, reddish type hair is associated with the presence of pheomelanin, which can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well. See "Rameses" below. Albinism is another source of red hair.
Dubious attempts at 'racial analysis' using Nubian hair and crania. Assorted supporters of the stereotypical Aryan 'race' model attempt to use hair to argue for a predominantly 'white' Nubia. But as noted above, such attempts are dubious given built-in African genetic diversity. Often 'racial' hair claims attempt to link on with cranial studies purporting to match ancient Nubians with Swedes, Frenchmen, etc. But such claims are also dubious. In a detailed analysis of the Fordisc computer program used to put forward such claims, Williams, Armelagos, et al. (2005) found that the program created ludicrous "matches" between the ancient Nubian crania and peoples from Hungary, Japan, Easter Island and a host of others in far-flung regions! Their conclusion was that the diversity of human populations in the databank explained such wide ranging matches. Such objective mainstream analyses debunk obsolete and improbable claims of 'racial' migrations of alleged Frenchman, Hungarians, or other whites into ancient Nubia, or equally improbable racial 'percentages' supposedly quantifying such claims. (Frank l'engle Williams, Robert L. Belcher, and George J . Armelagos, "Forensic Misclassification of Ancient Nubian Crania: Implications for Assumptions about Human Variation," Current Anthropology, volume 46 (2005), pages 340-346)
Alleged massive influx of Europeans and Middle Easterners to give the ancient peoples hair variation did not happen. Such variation was already in place as part of Africa' built in genetic and phenotypic diversity. As regards diameter, the average diameter of the Semna sample was close to both the Northwest European and East African samples. This again suggests a range of built-in African indigenous variability, and calls into questions various migration theories to the Nile Valley. One study for example (Keita 2005) tested the model of C. Loring Brace (1993) as to the notion of incoming European migrants replacing indigenous peoples of the Nile Valley. Brace's work had also suggested a relationship between northwest Europeans such as Scandanavians and African peoples of the Horn. Data analysis failed to support this model, instead clustering samples much closer to African series than to Europeans. Keita concluded that similarities between African data in his survey (skulls, etc) and non-Africans was not due to gene flow, but a subset of built-in African variability.
Ancient Egyptians cluster much closer to other Egyptians and Nubians. A later study by Brace, (Brace 2005- The questionable contribution..) groups ancient Egyptian populations like the Naqada closer to Nubians and Somalis than European, Mediterranean or Middle Eastern populations, and places various Nubians samples closer to Tanzanian, Dahomeian, and Congoid data points than to Europeans and Middle easterners. The limb proportion studies of Zakrzewski (2003) (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.) showing the tropical body plan of the ancient Egyptians also undercuts theories of inflowing European or near Eastern colonists, or the 'native Europid' model of Strouhal (1971).
The yellowish-red-hair of Rameses: proof of a Nordic Egypt?
Red hair itself is within the range of African diversity or that of dark-skinned peoples. Native black Australoids for example routinely produce blonde hair:
Detailed microscopic analysis during the 1980s (Balout 1985) identified some of the hair of Egyptian Pharoah Rameses II as being a yellowish-red. Such a finding should not be surprising given the wide range of physical variability in Africa, the most genetically diverse region on earth, out of which flowed other population groups. Indeed, blondism and various other hair shades are not unknown in East Africa or Nubia, particularly in children, nor are such hair color variants uncommon in dark-haired or dark skinned populations like the Australians. (Hrdy 1978) Given the range of genetic variability in Africa, a red-haired Rameses is hardly unusual. Rameses' reign, in the 19th Dynasty, came over 1,500 years after the Egyptian state had been established, and after the Hyskos interlude. Such latecomers to Egypt, like the Hyskos, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs etc would add their own genetic strands to the nation’s mix. Whatever the blend of genes that occurred with Rameses, his hair offers little supposed "proof" of a "white" or "Nordic" Egypt. If anything, X-rays of the royal mummies from earlier Dynasties by mainstream scientists show that the Egyptians pharaohs and other royals had varied 'Negroid' leanings. See X-Rays of the Royal mummies here, or here.
Pheomelanin and Rameses- found in light and dark-haired populations: The finding of Rameses “red” hair also deserves further scrutiny. The analysis found evidence of dyeing to make the hair yellowish-red, but some elements were untouched by the dye. These elements of yellowish-red hair in Balout’s study, were established on the basis of the presence of pheomelanin, a red-brown polymeric pigment in the skin and hair of humans. However, pheomelanin can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well, which gives it a reddish hue. Most natural melanins contain sulfur, which is typically associated with pheomelanin. In scientific tests of melanin, black hair contained as much as 5% sulfur, 3% lower than the 8.8% found in Irish red hair, but exceeding the 2.3% found in Scandinavian blond hair. (Jolles, et al. 1996) Thus the yellowish-red hair discovered on Rameses is well within the range of human variation for dark haired people, whatever the exact gene combination that led to the condition.
Rameses hair was not a typical European red, but yellowish-red, within African variation. It was also not ultra straight, further undermining claims of "Nordic" influence. Somalians and Ethiopians are SUB-SAHARANS and they routinely produce straight-haired people without the need for any "race mix" to explain why. The analysis on Rameses also did not show classic "European" red hair but hair of a light red to yellowish tinge. Black haired or dark-skinned populations are quite capable of producing such yellowish-red color variants on their own, as can be seen in today's east and northeast Africa (see child's photo above). Nor is such color variation unusual to Africa. Native dark-skinned populations in Australia, routinely produce people with blond or reddish hair. As noted above, ultra diverse Africa is the original source of such variation.
The analysis also found the hair to be cymotrich or wavy, again a characteristic quite within the range of overall African or Nile valley physical and genetic diversity. A "pure" Nordic type of straight hair was thus not established for Rameses. Hence the notion of white Europeans or red-headed Caucasoids from other areas flowing into ancient Egypt to add hair variation, particularly the early centuries of the dynastic state is unlikely. Such flows may have occurred most heavily in the Greek and Roman era but say nothing about the thousands of years preceding. The presence of pheomelanin conditions or other genetic combinations also explains how the different hair used in Egyptian wigs could vary in color, aside from environmental oxidation, bleaching and dyeing.
Red hair is rare worldwide, and history shows little evidence of Northern Europeans or "Nordics" sweeping into Egypt to give the natives a bit of hair coloring or variation. Most red hair is found in northern and western Europe, especially in the British Isles, and even then it appears in minor frequencies in Europe- some 4% of the population. It is unlikely such populations had any major contact or influence in the ancient Nile Valley. As noted above, red hair is comparatively rare in the world’s populations and pheomelanin conditions are found in dark-haired populations, and thus is well within the range of variation from the Sahara, East Africa and the Nile valley. “White Aryan” theories of Egypt are seen in the works of HFK Gunther (1927), Archibald Sayce (1925) and Raymond Dart (1939), and still find traction on a number of 'Aryan', neo-nazi and "race" websites and blogs which purport to show a "white Nordic Egypt" using Rameses' "red" hair as an example. Today's scientific research however, has debunked these dubious views, showing that red hair, while not common world wide, is a well known variant within human populations, even those with dark hair.
Straight or curly hair is also routine among sub-Saharans like Somalians, who are firmly part of the East African populations. As regards Somalians for example, Somali DNA overwhelmingly links much more heavily with other Africans including Kenyans & Ethiopians (85%), than with Europeans & Middle Easterners. (15%) On Y-chromosome markers (E3b1), Somalis (77%) and other African populations dwarf small European (5.1%) or Middle Eastern (6.3%) frequencies. “The data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the East African population..” (Sanchez et al., High frequencies of Y chromosome lineages.. in Somali males (2005)
As one mainstream researcher notes about the dubious value of "racial" hair analysis:
"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories. Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as 1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically indistinguishable". --Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: ^Tropical africans were "doing hair" including wigs and weaves for thousands of years without the need for any white "role models".
Hair recap
Ancient Egyptian hair
Across the web assorted "biodiversity" proponents, wage a 'racial war' using hair studies of ancient Egyptians to prove a "Caucasian Egypt". But in fact the hair of Africans is highly variable, debunking their simplistic claims.
The hair of Africans is highly variable, ranging from tight curls of South African Bantu, to the loose curls and straight hair of peoples of East and NE Africa, all indigenously evolved over millennia as part of Africa’s high genetic diversity. This diversity undermines and ultimately dismisses simplistic "racial" claims based on hair.
Inconsistencies of the skewed "true negro" model and definitions of African hair
Dubious assertions, double standards and outmoded racial hair claims: Czech anthropologist Strouhal's 1971 study touched on hair, and advanced the most extreme racial definitions, claiming Nubians to be white Europids overrun by later waves of Negroes, and that few Negroes appeared in Egypt until the New Kingdom. Indeed, Strouhal went so far as to argue that 'Negroes' failed to survive long in Egypt, because they were ill-adapted to its arid climate! Tell that to the Saharans, Sudanese and Nubians! Such dubious claims have been thoroughly debunked by modern scholarship, however they continue in various guises by those who attempt to use "hair" to assign race 'percents' and categories to the ancients. Attempts to define racial categories based on the ancient hair rely heavily on extreme definitions, with "Negroids" typically being defined as narrowly as possible. Everything not meeting the extreme "type" is then classified as something else, such as "Caucasian".
Kieta (1990, Studies of Crania from Northern Africa) notes that while many scholars in the field have used an extreme "true negro" definition for African peoples, few have attempted to apply the same model in reverse and define a "true white." Such racial double standards are typical of much scholarship on the ancient Nile Valley peoples. A consistent approach for example would define the straight hair in Strouhal's hair sample as an exclusive Caucasian marker (10 out of 49 or approximately 20%) and make the rest (wavy and curled) hybrid or negro, at >80%. Assorted writers who support the Aryan race percent model however, are careful to avoid such consistency and typically only run the comparison one way.
QUOTE: "Strouhal (1971) microscopically examined some hair which had been preserved on a Badarian skull. The analysis was interpreted as suggesting a stereotypical tropical African-European hybrid (mulatto). However this hair is grossly no different from that of Fulani, some Kanuri, or Somali and does not require a gene flow explanation any more than curly hair in Greece necessarily does. Extremely "wooly" hair is not the only kind native to tropical Africa.." (S. O. Y. Keita. (1993). "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54)
Disturbing attempts to use hair to prove race theories: Fletcher (2002) in Egyptian Hair and Wigs, gives an example of what she calls "disturbing attempts to use hair to prove assumptions of race and gender" involving 1800s European researcher F. Petrie, who sometimes sought to use excavation reports to prove his theories of Aegean settlers flowing into Egypt. Such disturbing attempts continue today in the use of hair for race category or percentage claims involving the ancient peoples, such as the "racial" analysis seen on several Internet blogs and websites, some thinly disguised fronts for neo-nazi groups or sympathizers.
Hair study applied a stereotyped "true negro" model and used late period samples of Egypt, after the coming of Greeks, Hyskos, etc as "representative" excluding the previous 2500 years of ancient civilization. A study of the hair of Egyptian mummies by Czech anthropologists Titlbachova and Titllbach (1977) (reported in Strouhal 1977) using only late period samples found a wide range of hair in mummies. Of the 14 samples, only 4 were from the south of Egypt, and none of the 14 samples were earlier than the 18th Dynasty. Essentially the previous 2,000 years + of Egyptain civilization and peopling are not represented. Only the narrowest definition is used to identify 'true negro' types'. All other intermediate types were deemed 'non-negroid.' If a similar procedure is used in reverse and designates only straight hair as a marker of a European, then only 4 out of 14 or 29% of the samples can be deemed "Caucasoid." Below is a breakdown of the Czech data:
Sample# 5- 18th-21st dynasties- Deir el medina- curly Sample# 8- 21st-25th dynasties- hair looks straight Sample# 11- Late to Greek Period- hair partly wavy Sample# 18- Late period Egypt- hair fine diameter Sample# 19- Greek period- wavy hair Sample# 29- 18-21st Dynasties- Deir El Medina- hair shape unascertainable - south Sample# 31- 18-21st dynasties- Deir El Median- wavy to curly - south Sample# 33- 21st-25th dynasties- appears straight Sample# 34- 21st-25th dynasties- shape difficult to determine Sample# 35- 21st-25th dynasties- wavy shape Sample# 40- 21-25th Dynasties- hair curly, Sample# 44- 21-25th Dynasties- appears straight Sample# 45- 21-25th Dynasties- appears wavy Sample# 46- Kharga Oasis- 4th-5th centuries AD
Using modern technology, the same Aryan Race models are undercut with the data actually showing that Egyptians group closer to Africans than vaunted white Nordics.
[1]"Nordic hair measurements"[/i]
Neo-Nazis and sympathizers tout the work of German researcher Pruner-Bey in the 1800s which derived racial indexes of hair including Negroes, Egyptians and Germans. Germanic hair is closer to that of the Egyptians they assert. But is it as they claim?
(Data of Bruner-Bey 1864- 'On human hair as a race character') - Negroid index: 57.40 - Egyptian index: 69.94 - White Germans: 66.33 Neo-Nazi conclusion: White German Nordics are 'closer' to Egyptians
Modern data using electron microscopes- Conti-Fuhrman & Massa (1972). Massa and Masali (1980)
Compare to Pruner Bey's 1864 data: - Negroid index: 57.40 - Egyptian index: 60.02 (modern electron microscope data) White Germans: 66.33 ______________________________________________________________________________ Conclusion using modern microscope data: Negroes much ‘closer’ to Egyptians than Nordics _____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Using hair for race identification as older research does can be shaky, but even when used, it undercuts ‘Aryan” clams as shown above.
Fletcher 2002 decries “"disturbing attempts to use hair to prove assumptions of race and gender..” Other credible scientists note:
"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories. Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as 1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically indistinguishable". --Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2
Environmental factors can influence hair color, and the Egyptians routinely placed hair from different sources in mummy wrappings, making claims of "Nordic-haired" or "white" Egyptians dubious.
Mummification practices and dyeing of hair. Hair studies of mummies note that color is often influenced by environmental factors at burial sites. Brothwell and Spearman (1963) point out that reddish-brown ancient color hair is usually the result of partial oxidation of the melanin pigment. Other causes of hair color "blonding" involve bleaching, caused by the alkaline in the mummification process. Color also varies due to the Egyptian practice of dyeing hair with henna. Other samples show individuals lightening the hair using vegetable colorants. Thus variations in hair color among mummies do not necessarily suggest the presence of blond or red-haired Europeans or Near Easterners flitting about Egypt before being mummified, but the influence of environmental factors.
Egyptian practice of putting locks of hair in mummy wrappings. Racial analysis is also made problematic by the Egyptian practice of burying hair, in many "votive or funerary deposits buried separately from the body, a practice found from Predynastic to Roman times despite its frequent omission from excavation reports." (Fletcher 2002) In examining hair samples Fletcher (2004) notes that care is needed to determine what is natural scalp hair, versus hair from a wig, versus hair extensions to natural locks. Tracking the exact source of hair is also critical since the Egyptians were known to have placed locks of hair from different sources among mummy wrappings. (The Search for Nefertiti, By Joann Fletcher, HarperCollins, 2004, p. 93-94, 96)
Egyptians shaved much of their natural hair off and used wigs extensively as covering, obtaining much of the hair for wigs through trade. Discoveries" of "Aryan" or 'Nordic" hair are thus hardly 'proof' of incoming Caucasoids, but may be simply hair purchased from some source and made into a wig. This is much less dramatic than the exciting picture of inflowing 'Aryan' hordes.
The ancient Egyptians shaved off much of their own natural hair as a matter of personal hygiene and custom, and wore wigs in public. According to the Encyclopedia of body adornment (Margo DeMello, 2007, Greenwood Publishing Group, p. 101), "Boys and girls until puberty wore their hair shaved except for a side locl left on the side of their head. Many adults- both men and women- also shaved their hair as a way of coping with heat and lice. However, adults did not go about bald, and instead wore wigs in public and in private.. Wigs were initially worn by the elites, but later worn by women of all classes.."
The widespread use of wigs in ancient Egypt thus complicates and contradicts attempts at 'racial' analysis. Fletcher (2002) shows that many Egyptian wigs have been found with what is defined as straighter 'cynotrichous' hair. This however is hardly a marker of massive European or Near Eastern presence or admixture. Fletcher notes that the Egyptians often eschewed their own personal hair, shaving carefully and using wigs widely. The hair for these wigs was often obtained through trade. Indeed, "hair itself being a valuable commodity ranked alongside gold and incense in account lists from the town of Kahun." Image gallery | Articles | Google
Egyptian trading links with other regions is well known, and a commodity like straighter 'cynotrichous' hair could have been easily obtained via the Sahara, Levant, the Maghreb, Mediterranean contacts, or even the hair of Asiatic war captives or casualties from Egypt's numerous conflicts. There is little need to postulate mass influxes of European admixtures or populations to account for hair types in wigs. The limb proportion studies of the ancient Egyptians showing them to be much more related to tropical types than to Europids, is further demonstration of the fallacy of using hair as 'proof' of a 'Aryan' or predominantly European admixed Egypt.
Nubian wigs and wigs in Egypt
Such exchanges or use of hair appear elsewhere in the Nile valley. Tomb finds show Nubians themselves wearing wigs of straight hair. But one Nubian from the Royal valley, of the 12th century, named Maherpra, was found to be wearing a wig himself, made up of tightly curled 'negroid' hair, on top of his natural covering (Fletcher 2002). The so-called "Nubian wig" also appears in Egyptian art relief's depicting daily life, a stylistic arrangement thought to imitate those found in southern Egypt or Nubia. Such wigs appear to have been popular with both Egyptians and Nubians. Fletcher 2004 notes that the famous queen Nefertiti made frequent use of the Nubian wig: "Nefertiti and her daughter seem to have set a trend for wearing the Nubian wig.. a coiffure first worn by Nubian mercenaries and clearly associated with the military." A detail of a wall scene in Theban tomb TT.55 shows the queen wearing the Nubian wig. Infantrymen from the Nubia. Note both bow and battle-axe carried into combat.
Nubian infantrymen shown with distinctive Nubian wig. From Deir el-Bahri, Temple of Hatshepsut New Kingdom, Eighteenth Dynasty, 1480 B.C.
Hair studies of Nubians show built-in African genetic variability
Hair studies of Nubians have also been undertaken. One study at Semna, in Nubia (Daniel Hrdy 1978- Analysis of Hair Samples of Mummies from Semna South, American Journal of Physical Anthropology, (1978) 49: 277-262), found curling patterns intermediate between Northwest European and African samples. The X-group, especially males, showed more African elements than the Meroitic in the curling variables. Crimping and curvature data patterned in a northwest Europe direction. These data plots however do not necessarily indicate race admixture or percentages, or the presence of European migrants or colonists (see Keita 2005 below), but rather a data pattern of variation in how hair curls, and native African diversity which cases substantial overlap with non-African groups. This is a routine occurrence within human groups.
Africa has the highest phenotypic variation, just as it has the highest geentic variation- accommodating a wide range of features for its peoples without the need for any "race mix: Relethford (2001) shows that ".. methods for estimating regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic studies." (Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5, October 2001, pp. 629-636) Hanihara 2003 notes that [significant] "..intraregional diversity are present in Subsaharan Africans.." While ancient Egypt had gene flow in various eras, hair variations easily fall under this pattern of built-in, indigenous diversity, as well as the above noted cultural practice of using wigs with hair from different places obtained through trade.
Among Europeans for example, some people have curlier hair and some have straighter hair than others. Various peoples of East and West Africa also have narrow noses, which are different from other peoples elsewhere in Africa, nevertheless they still remain Africans. DNA studies also note greater variation within selected populations that without. Since Africa has the highest genetic diversity in the world, such routine variation in characteristics such as hair need not indicate any racial percentage or admixture, but simply part of the built-in genetic diversity of the ancient peoples on the continent. Indeed, the Semna study author notes that blondism, especially in young children, is common in many dark-haired populations (e.g., Australian, Melanesian), and is still found in some Nubian villages. As regards hair color variation, reddish type hair is associated with the presence of pheomelanin, which can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well. See "Rameses" below. Albinism is another source of red hair.
Dubious attempts at 'racial analysis' using Nubian hair and crania. Assorted supporters of the stereotypical Aryan 'race' model attempt to use hair to argue for a predominantly 'white' Nubia. But as noted above, such attempts are dubious given built-in African genetic diversity. Often 'racial' hair claims attempt to link on with cranial studies purporting to match ancient Nubians with Swedes, Frenchmen, etc. But such claims are also dubious. In a detailed analysis of the Fordisc computer program used to put forward such claims, Williams, Armelagos, et al. (2005) found that the program created ludicrous "matches" between the ancient Nubian crania and peoples from Hungary, Japan, Easter Island and a host of others in far-flung regions! Their conclusion was that the diversity of human populations in the databank explained such wide ranging matches. Such objective mainstream analyses debunk obsolete and improbable claims of 'racial' migrations of alleged Frenchman, Hungarians, or other whites into ancient Nubia, or equally improbable racial 'percentages' supposedly quantifying such claims. (Frank l'engle Williams, Robert L. Belcher, and George J . Armelagos, "Forensic Misclassification of Ancient Nubian Crania: Implications for Assumptions about Human Variation," Current Anthropology, volume 46 (2005), pages 340-346)
Alleged massive influx of Europeans and Middle Easterners to give the ancient peoples hair variation did not happen. Such variation was already in place as part of Africa' built in genetic and phenotypic diversity. As regards diameter, the average diameter of the Semna sample was close to both the Northwest European and East African samples. This again suggests a range of built-in African indigenous variability, and calls into questions various migration theories to the Nile Valley. One study for example (Keita 2005) tested the model of C. Loring Brace (1993) as to the notion of incoming European migrants replacing indigenous peoples of the Nile Valley. Brace's work had also suggested a relationship between northwest Europeans such as Scandanavians and African peoples of the Horn. Data analysis failed to support this model, instead clustering samples much closer to African series than to Europeans. Keita concluded that similarities between African data in his survey (skulls, etc) and non-Africans was not due to gene flow, but a subset of built-in African variability.
Ancient Egyptians cluster much closer to other Egyptians and Nubians. A later study by Brace, (Brace 2005- The questionable contribution..) groups ancient Egyptian populations like the Naqada closer to Nubians and Somalis than European, Mediterranean or Middle Eastern populations, and places various Nubians samples closer to Tanzanian, Dahomeian, and Congoid data points than to Europeans and Middle easterners. The limb proportion studies of Zakrzewski (2003) (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.) showing the tropical body plan of the ancient Egyptians also undercuts theories of inflowing European or near Eastern colonists, or the 'native Europid' model of Strouhal (1971).
The yellowish-red-hair of Rameses: proof of a Nordic Egypt?
Red hair itself is within the range of African diversity or that of dark-skinned peoples. Native black Australoids for example routinely produce blonde hair:
Detailed microscopic analysis during the 1980s (Balout 1985) identified some of the hair of Egyptian Pharoah Rameses II as being a yellowish-red. Such a finding should not be surprising given the wide range of physical variability in Africa, the most genetically diverse region on earth, out of which flowed other population groups. Indeed, blondism and various other hair shades are not unknown in East Africa or Nubia, particularly in children, nor are such hair color variants uncommon in dark-haired or dark skinned populations like the Australians. (Hrdy 1978) Given the range of genetic variability in Africa, a red-haired Rameses is hardly unusual. Rameses' reign, in the 19th Dynasty, came over 1,500 years after the Egyptian state had been established, and after the Hyskos interlude. Such latecomers to Egypt, like the Hyskos, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs etc would add their own genetic strands to the nation’s mix. Whatever the blend of genes that occurred with Rameses, his hair offers little supposed "proof" of a "white" or "Nordic" Egypt. If anything, X-rays of the royal mummies from earlier Dynasties by mainstream scientists show that the Egyptians pharaohs and other royals had varied 'Negroid' leanings. See X-Rays of the Royal mummies here, or here.
Pheomelanin and Rameses- found in light and dark-haired populations: The finding of Rameses “red” hair also deserves further scrutiny. The analysis found evidence of dyeing to make the hair yellowish-red, but some elements were untouched by the dye. These elements of yellowish-red hair in Balout’s study, were established on the basis of the presence of pheomelanin, a red-brown polymeric pigment in the skin and hair of humans. However, pheomelanin can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well, which gives it a reddish hue. Most natural melanins contain sulfur, which is typically associated with pheomelanin. In scientific tests of melanin, black hair contained as much as 5% sulfur, 3% lower than the 8.8% found in Irish red hair, but exceeding the 2.3% found in Scandinavian blond hair. (Jolles, et al. 1996) Thus the yellowish-red hair discovered on Rameses is well within the range of human variation for dark haired people, whatever the exact gene combination that led to the condition.
Rameses hair was not a typical European red, but yellowish-red, within African variation. It was also not ultra straight, further undermining claims of "Nordic" influence. Somalians and Ethiopians are SUB-SAHARANS and they routinely produce straight-haired people without the need for any "race mix" to explain why. The analysis on Rameses also did not show classic "European" red hair but hair of a light red to yellowish tinge. Black haired or dark-skinned populations are quite capable of producing such yellowish-red color variants on their own, as can be seen in today's east and northeast Africa (see child's photo above). Nor is such color variation unusual to Africa. Native dark-skinned populations in Australia, routinely produce people with blond or reddish hair. As noted above, ultra diverse Africa is the original source of such variation.
The analysis also found the hair to be cymotrich or wavy, again a characteristic quite within the range of overall African or Nile valley physical and genetic diversity. A "pure" Nordic type of straight hair was thus not established for Rameses. Hence the notion of white Europeans or red-headed Caucasoids from other areas flowing into ancient Egypt to add hair variation, particularly the early centuries of the dynastic state is unlikely. Such flows may have occurred most heavily in the Greek and Roman era but say nothing about the thousands of years preceding. The presence of pheomelanin conditions or other genetic combinations also explains how the different hair used in Egyptian wigs could vary in color, aside from environmental oxidation, bleaching and dyeing.
Red hair is rare worldwide, and history shows little evidence of Northern Europeans or "Nordics" sweeping into Egypt to give the natives a bit of hair coloring or variation. Most red hair is found in northern and western Europe, especially in the British Isles, and even then it appears in minor frequencies in Europe- some 4% of the population. It is unlikely such populations had any major contact or influence in the ancient Nile Valley. As noted above, red hair is comparatively rare in the world’s populations and pheomelanin conditions are found in dark-haired populations, and thus is well within the range of variation from the Sahara, East Africa and the Nile valley. “White Aryan” theories of Egypt are seen in the works of HFK Gunther (1927), Archibald Sayce (1925) and Raymond Dart (1939), and still find traction on a number of 'Aryan', neo-nazi and "race" websites and blogs which purport to show a "white Nordic Egypt" using Rameses' "red" hair as an example. Today's scientific research however, has debunked these dubious views, showing that red hair, while not common world wide, is a well known variant within human populations, even those with dark hair.
Straight or curly hair is also routine among sub-Saharans like Somalians, who are firmly part of the East African populations. As regards Somalians for example, Somali DNA overwhelmingly links much more heavily with other Africans including Kenyans & Ethiopians (85%), than with Europeans & Middle Easterners. (15%) On Y-chromosome markers (E3b1), Somalis (77%) and other African populations dwarf small European (5.1%) or Middle Eastern (6.3%) frequencies. “The data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the East African population..” (Sanchez et al., High frequencies of Y chromosome lineages.. in Somali males (2005)
As one mainstream researcher notes about the dubious value of "racial" hair analysis:
"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories. Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as 1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically indistinguishable". --Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2
Of course Africans invented all aspects of hair and beauty treatments. But the point remains that the hairstyles popular in America are based on European hair textures and styles. I don't know why on earth some people just are to stubborn to just accept this basic fact. And I just posted good examples of African traditional hair weaving styles, the so called basket weaving style, but this style looks nothing like the hair styles and textures found European dominated American fashion and beauty circles. So just because Africans invented beauty, hair treatment and cosmetics, does not change the curly kinky hair texture of west Africans into the long straight to curly hair of Europeans. African Americans are primarily of West African descent and those people do not have the same straight hair texture of Europeans. Not only that but most African hair styles, even with weaves and wigs, looked more like the ancient Egyptian hair styles, which did not look like the straight white European hairstyles promoted by the modern African American haircare industry, which is not controlled by Africans. Remy Indian hair even says point blank that the hair texture of the weave is "European".
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Now show me in any of the product descriptions for these items where they say AFRICAN DEEP KINKY HAIR WEAVE.... Yeah, they say kinky but they aren't really kinky like an Afro kinky. It is just a play on words because the hair itself still comes from people with straight hair in India and elsewhere in Asia so it isn't kinky to begin with.
These products are made specifically to promote straight hair and straight European hair styles and textures among African American women who do not have such hair texture naturally. And there is no product on the market that offers natural African kinky hair texture weaves. Why? Because America is a racist European dominated society that looks down on African kinky hair texture as being nappy, dirty, stank and filthy and not pretty. Therefore, at no time in American history has natural African hair textures or styles ever been promoted by white European cosmetics and beauty companies. What happened is that black folks decided to stop trying to be their natural selves and just went with the white beauty program. So stop trying to pretend this is some sort of African tradition when it isn't. European dominated fashion and beauty companies don't respect African traditions they hate them and the only reason the industry caters to African Americans is because they are making money. But it isn't in promoting natural African hair it is in promoting white European hair styles and textures.
And you are most certainly kidding yourself if you believe that the ancient Egyptians wore wigs or weaves that looked like that fake hair the big booty model you posted is wearing. It is one thing for black folks like Indians, Pacific Islanders and others to wear such styles, but for West African descended people who are not from the Nile Valley and don't generally have straighter hair to pretend that this is their natural hair texture is absurd and silly.
A blog on the subject, however, just like most people here, she avoids the distinction between the technology of hair weaving and wigs, which is of course African and styles of weaves and hair, which varies from culture to culture and population to population. And it is on the latter topic, styles of hair that I am focusing on. The styles of Hair worn by African Americans are primarily dominated by Europeans. Whether it was the Victorian hair styles of the early 1900s, the flapper hairstyles of the 1920s, the Betty Grable hairstyles of the 1940s or the hairstyles of the 70s, black women have always adopted European styles and designs in America, because that is what the European dominated culture, beauty and fashion industry promotes. Denying this is simply a form of trying to hide from the obvious and has absolutely nothing to do with ancient Africa.
quote: NO! Well it depends. Weaves and wigs are not an invention of contemporary American culture nor of 17th century Europe where men powdered those poodle-looking wigs on their heads. The origin of wigs and weaves date back approximately three thousand years ago to Ancient Africa, particuarly Kemet (Ancient Egypt). Wigs were often used because the Ancient Egyptians shaved their heads to prevent lice. In fact, shaving the heads (particularly among the young) and rocking wigs and extensions is still practiced throughout parts of Africa.
Modern wigs in America do not look like ancient Egyptian wigs. The Egyptian wigs are braided and kinky, like most African wigs and weaves, where European wigs are straight. You can tell the difference a mile away.
But of course, things are not all bad. Straight from the new blog at body image central:
quote: As a PhD medical anthropology student at a university with nearly 50,000 students, natural hair is truly becoming a natural occurrence. Afro puffs, twist outs, blow outs, TWAs, bantu knots, free formed locs, sisterlocks, and fades. You name it, I've seen it. Not to mention I've even observed our hair dyed to cover every spectrum of the rainbow. Believe it or not, the college atmosphere is that airtight bubble where a sistah can really explore, create, and showcase her personality. It's no biggie to see a woman enter the library with a humungous Angela Davis afro dyed auburn. But to compete for her place in the workforce, can she rock the same style after she's earned her degree and popped out of the college bubble?
According to Forbeswoman contributor, Larissa Faw, the "Top 3 No Nos" for Human Resource managers are piercings, foul-smelling breath, and visible tattoos. But don't be fooled ladies. The same HR managers work for companies that have the legal right (in the United States anyway) to create and enforce grooming standards that reflect whatever public image the company wishes to project.
^SO you would therefore recommend a return to more authentic African hair styles- from the Nile Valley all the way down to Zululand? Such authentic African styles would include weaves, wigs, natural elements to make hair workable into a style (certain oils for example) and use of colorants, depending on the particular culture area. In other words, you would educate people that a weave is not a "European" thing, but old news in Africa? How would u help people make the distinction between the Europeanized styles and authentic African styles?
Across the web assorted "biodiversity" proponents, wage a 'racial war' using hair studies of ancient Egyptians to prove a "Caucasian Egypt". But in fact the hair of Africans is highly variable, debunking their simplistic claims.
The hair of Africans is highly variable, ranging from tight curls of South African Bantu, to the loose curls and straight hair of peoples of East and NE Africa, all indigenously evolved over millennia as part of Africa’s high genetic diversity. This diversity undermines and ultimately dismisses simplistic "racial" claims based on hair.
Inconsistencies of the skewed "true negro" model and definitions of African hair
Dubious assertions, double standards and outmoded racial hair claims: Czech anthropologist Strouhal's 1971 study touched on hair, and advanced the most extreme racial definitions, claiming Nubians to be white Europids overrun by later waves of Negroes, and that few Negroes appeared in Egypt until the New Kingdom. Indeed, Strouhal went so far as to argue that 'Negroes' failed to survive long in Egypt, because they were ill-adapted to its arid climate! Tell that to the Saharans, Sudanese and Nubians! Such dubious claims have been thoroughly debunked by modern scholarship, however they continue in various guises by those who attempt to use "hair" to assign race 'percents' and categories to the ancients. Attempts to define racial categories based on the ancient hair rely heavily on extreme definitions, with "Negroids" typically being defined as narrowly as possible. Everything not meeting the extreme "type" is then classified as something else, such as "Caucasian".
Kieta (1990, Studies of Crania from Northern Africa) notes that while many scholars in the field have used an extreme "true negro" definition for African peoples, few have attempted to apply the same model in reverse and define a "true white." Such racial double standards are typical of much scholarship on the ancient Nile Valley peoples. A consistent approach for example would define the straight hair in Strouhal's hair sample as an exclusive Caucasian marker (10 out of 49 or approximately 20%) and make the rest (wavy and curled) hybrid or negro, at >80%. Assorted writers who support the Aryan race percent model however, are careful to avoid such consistency and typically only run the comparison one way.
QUOTE: "Strouhal (1971) microscopically examined some hair which had been preserved on a Badarian skull. The analysis was interpreted as suggesting a stereotypical tropical African-European hybrid (mulatto). However this hair is grossly no different from that of Fulani, some Kanuri, or Somali and does not require a gene flow explanation any more than curly hair in Greece necessarily does. Extremely "wooly" hair is not the only kind native to tropical Africa.." (S. O. Y. Keita. (1993). "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54)
Disturbing attempts to use hair to prove race theories: Fletcher (2002) in Egyptian Hair and Wigs, gives an example of what she calls "disturbing attempts to use hair to prove assumptions of race and gender" involving 1800s European researcher F. Petrie, who sometimes sought to use excavation reports to prove his theories of Aegean settlers flowing into Egypt. Such disturbing attempts continue today in the use of hair for race category or percentage claims involving the ancient peoples, such as the "racial" analysis seen on several Internet blogs and websites, some thinly disguised fronts for neo-nazi groups or sympathizers.
Hair study applied a stereotyped "true negro" model and used late period samples of Egypt, after the coming of Greeks, Hyskos, etc as "representative" excluding the previous 2500 years of ancient civilization. A study of the hair of Egyptian mummies by Czech anthropologists Titlbachova and Titllbach (1977) (reported in Strouhal 1977) using only late period samples found a wide range of hair in mummies. Of the 14 samples, only 4 were from the south of Egypt, and none of the 14 samples were earlier than the 18th Dynasty. Essentially the previous 2,000 years + of Egyptain civilization and peopling are not represented. Only the narrowest definition is used to identify 'true negro' types'. All other intermediate types were deemed 'non-negroid.' If a similar procedure is used in reverse and designates only straight hair as a marker of a European, then only 4 out of 14 or 29% of the samples can be deemed "Caucasoid." Below is a breakdown of the Czech data:
Sample# 5- 18th-21st dynasties- Deir el medina- curly Sample# 8- 21st-25th dynasties- hair looks straight Sample# 11- Late to Greek Period- hair partly wavy Sample# 18- Late period Egypt- hair fine diameter Sample# 19- Greek period- wavy hair Sample# 29- 18-21st Dynasties- Deir El Medina- hair shape unascertainable - south Sample# 31- 18-21st dynasties- Deir El Median- wavy to curly - south Sample# 33- 21st-25th dynasties- appears straight Sample# 34- 21st-25th dynasties- shape difficult to determine Sample# 35- 21st-25th dynasties- wavy shape Sample# 40- 21-25th Dynasties- hair curly, Sample# 44- 21-25th Dynasties- appears straight Sample# 45- 21-25th Dynasties- appears wavy Sample# 46- Kharga Oasis- 4th-5th centuries AD
Using modern technology, the same Aryan Race models are undercut with the data actually showing that Egyptians group closer to Africans than vaunted white Nordics.
[1]"Nordic hair measurements"[/i]
Neo-Nazis and sympathizers tout the work of German researcher Pruner-Bey in the 1800s which derived racial indexes of hair including Negroes, Egyptians and Germans. Germanic hair is closer to that of the Egyptians they assert. But is it as they claim?
(Data of Bruner-Bey 1864- 'On human hair as a race character') - Negroid index: 57.40 - Egyptian index: 69.94 - White Germans: 66.33 Neo-Nazi conclusion: White German Nordics are 'closer' to Egyptians
Modern data using electron microscopes- Conti-Fuhrman & Massa (1972). Massa and Masali (1980)
Compare to Pruner Bey's 1864 data: - Negroid index: 57.40 - Egyptian index: 60.02 (modern electron microscope data) White Germans: 66.33 ______________________________________________________ ________________________ Conclusion using modern microscope data: Negroes much ‘closer’ to Egyptians than Nordics ______________________________________________________ _______________________________________________
Using hair for race identification as older research does can be shaky, but even when used, it undercuts ‘Aryan” clams as shown above.
Fletcher 2002 decries “"disturbing attempts to use hair to prove assumptions of race and gender..” Other credible scientists note:
"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories. Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as 1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically indistinguishable". --Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2
Environmental factors can influence hair color, and the Egyptians routinely placed hair from different sources in mummy wrappings, making claims of "Nordic-haired" or "white" Egyptians dubious.
Mummification practices and dyeing of hair. Hair studies of mummies note that color is often influenced by environmental factors at burial sites. Brothwell and Spearman (1963) point out that reddish-brown ancient color hair is usually the result of partial oxidation of the melanin pigment. Other causes of hair color "blonding" involve bleaching, caused by the alkaline in the mummification process. Color also varies due to the Egyptian practice of dyeing hair with henna. Other samples show individuals lightening the hair using vegetable colorants. Thus variations in hair color among mummies do not necessarily suggest the presence of blond or red-haired Europeans or Near Easterners flitting about Egypt before being mummified, but the influence of environmental factors.
Egyptian practice of putting locks of hair in mummy wrappings. Racial analysis is also made problematic by the Egyptian practice of burying hair, in many "votive or funerary deposits buried separately from the body, a practice found from Predynastic to Roman times despite its frequent omission from excavation reports." (Fletcher 2002) In examining hair samples Fletcher (2004) notes that care is needed to determine what is natural scalp hair, versus hair from a wig, versus hair extensions to natural locks. Tracking the exact source of hair is also critical since the Egyptians were known to have placed locks of hair from different sources among mummy wrappings. (The Search for Nefertiti, By Joann Fletcher, HarperCollins, 2004, p. 93-94, 96)
Egyptians shaved much of their natural hair off and used wigs extensively as covering, obtaining much of the hair for wigs through trade. Discoveries" of "Aryan" or 'Nordic" hair are thus hardly 'proof' of incoming Caucasoids, but may be simply hair purchased from some source and made into a wig. This is much less dramatic than the exciting picture of inflowing 'Aryan' hordes.
The ancient Egyptians shaved off much of their own natural hair as a matter of personal hygiene and custom, and wore wigs in public. According to the Encyclopedia of body adornment (Margo DeMello, 2007, Greenwood Publishing Group, p. 101), "Boys and girls until puberty wore their hair shaved except for a side locl left on the side of their head. Many adults- both men and women- also shaved their hair as a way of coping with heat and lice. However, adults did not go about bald, and instead wore wigs in public and in private.. Wigs were initially worn by the elites, but later worn by women of all classes.."
The widespread use of wigs in ancient Egypt thus complicates and contradicts attempts at 'racial' analysis. Fletcher (2002) shows that many Egyptian wigs have been found with what is defined as straighter 'cynotrichous' hair. This however is hardly a marker of massive European or Near Eastern presence or admixture. Fletcher notes that the Egyptians often eschewed their own personal hair, shaving carefully and using wigs widely. The hair for these wigs was often obtained through trade. Indeed, "hair itself being a valuable commodity ranked alongside gold and incense in account lists from the town of Kahun." Image gallery | Articles | Google
Egyptian trading links with other regions is well known, and a commodity like straighter 'cynotrichous' hair could have been easily obtained via the Sahara, Levant, the Maghreb, Mediterranean contacts, or even the hair of Asiatic war captives or casualties from Egypt's numerous conflicts. There is little need to postulate mass influxes of European admixtures or populations to account for hair types in wigs. The limb proportion studies of the ancient Egyptians showing them to be much more related to tropical types than to Europids, is further demonstration of the fallacy of using hair as 'proof' of a 'Aryan' or predominantly European admixed Egypt.
Nubian wigs and wigs in Egypt
Such exchanges or use of hair appear elsewhere in the Nile valley. Tomb finds show Nubians themselves wearing wigs of straight hair. But one Nubian from the Royal valley, of the 12th century, named Maherpra, was found to be wearing a wig himself, made up of tightly curled 'negroid' hair, on top of his natural covering (Fletcher 2002). The so-called "Nubian wig" also appears in Egyptian art relief's depicting daily life, a stylistic arrangement thought to imitate those found in southern Egypt or Nubia. Such wigs appear to have been popular with both Egyptians and Nubians. Fletcher 2004 notes that the famous queen Nefertiti made frequent use of the Nubian wig: "Nefertiti and her daughter seem to have set a trend for wearing the Nubian wig.. a coiffure first worn by Nubian mercenaries and clearly associated with the military." A detail of a wall scene in Theban tomb TT.55 shows the queen wearing the Nubian wig. Infantrymen from the Nubia. Note both bow and battle-axe carried into combat.
Nubian infantrymen shown with distinctive Nubian wig. From Deir el-Bahri, Temple of Hatshepsut New Kingdom, Eighteenth Dynasty, 1480 B.C.
Hair studies of Nubians show built-in African genetic variability
Hair studies of Nubians have also been undertaken. One study at Semna, in Nubia (Daniel Hrdy 1978- Analysis of Hair Samples of Mummies from Semna South, American Journal of Physical Anthropology, (1978) 49: 277-262), found curling patterns intermediate between Northwest European and African samples. The X-group, especially males, showed more African elements than the Meroitic in the curling variables. Crimping and curvature data patterned in a northwest Europe direction. These data plots however do not necessarily indicate race admixture or percentages, or the presence of European migrants or colonists (see Keita 2005 below), but rather a data pattern of variation in how hair curls, and native African diversity which cases substantial overlap with non-African groups. This is a routine occurrence within human groups.
Africa has the highest phenotypic variation, just as it has the highest geentic variation- accommodating a wide range of features for its peoples without the need for any "race mix: Relethford (2001) shows that ".. methods for estimating regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic studies." (Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5, October 2001, pp. 629-636) Hanihara 2003 notes that [significant] "..intraregional diversity are present in Subsaharan Africans.." While ancient Egypt had gene flow in various eras, hair variations easily fall under this pattern of built-in, indigenous diversity, as well as the above noted cultural practice of using wigs with hair from different places obtained through trade.
Among Europeans for example, some people have curlier hair and some have straighter hair than others. Various peoples of East and West Africa also have narrow noses, which are different from other peoples elsewhere in Africa, nevertheless they still remain Africans. DNA studies also note greater variation within selected populations that without. Since Africa has the highest genetic diversity in the world, such routine variation in characteristics such as hair need not indicate any racial percentage or admixture, but simply part of the built-in genetic diversity of the ancient peoples on the continent. Indeed, the Semna study author notes that blondism, especially in young children, is common in many dark-haired populations (e.g., Australian, Melanesian), and is still found in some Nubian villages. As regards hair color variation, reddish type hair is associated with the presence of pheomelanin, which can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well. See "Rameses" below. Albinism is another source of red hair.
Dubious attempts at 'racial analysis' using Nubian hair and crania. Assorted supporters of the stereotypical Aryan 'race' model attempt to use hair to argue for a predominantly 'white' Nubia. But as noted above, such attempts are dubious given built-in African genetic diversity. Often 'racial' hair claims attempt to link on with cranial studies purporting to match ancient Nubians with Swedes, Frenchmen, etc. But such claims are also dubious. In a detailed analysis of the Fordisc computer program used to put forward such claims, Williams, Armelagos, et al. (2005) found that the program created ludicrous "matches" between the ancient Nubian crania and peoples from Hungary, Japan, Easter Island and a host of others in far-flung regions! Their conclusion was that the diversity of human populations in the databank explained such wide ranging matches. Such objective mainstream analyses debunk obsolete and improbable claims of 'racial' migrations of alleged Frenchman, Hungarians, or other whites into ancient Nubia, or equally improbable racial 'percentages' supposedly quantifying such claims. (Frank l'engle Williams, Robert L. Belcher, and George J . Armelagos, "Forensic Misclassification of Ancient Nubian Crania: Implications for Assumptions about Human Variation," Current Anthropology, volume 46 (2005), pages 340-346)
Alleged massive influx of Europeans and Middle Easterners to give the ancient peoples hair variation did not happen. Such variation was already in place as part of Africa' built in genetic and phenotypic diversity. As regards diameter, the average diameter of the Semna sample was close to both the Northwest European and East African samples. This again suggests a range of built-in African indigenous variability, and calls into questions various migration theories to the Nile Valley. One study for example (Keita 2005) tested the model of C. Loring Brace (1993) as to the notion of incoming European migrants replacing indigenous peoples of the Nile Valley. Brace's work had also suggested a relationship between northwest Europeans such as Scandanavians and African peoples of the Horn. Data analysis failed to support this model, instead clustering samples much closer to African series than to Europeans. Keita concluded that similarities between African data in his survey (skulls, etc) and non-Africans was not due to gene flow, but a subset of built-in African variability.
Ancient Egyptians cluster much closer to other Egyptians and Nubians. A later study by Brace, (Brace 2005- The questionable contribution..) groups ancient Egyptian populations like the Naqada closer to Nubians and Somalis than European, Mediterranean or Middle Eastern populations, and places various Nubians samples closer to Tanzanian, Dahomeian, and Congoid data points than to Europeans and Middle easterners. The limb proportion studies of Zakrzewski (2003) (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.) showing the tropical body plan of the ancient Egyptians also undercuts theories of inflowing European or near Eastern colonists, or the 'native Europid' model of Strouhal (1971).
The yellowish-red-hair of Rameses: proof of a Nordic Egypt?
Red hair itself is within the range of African diversity or that of dark-skinned peoples. Native black Australoids for example routinely produce blonde hair:
Detailed microscopic analysis during the 1980s (Balout 1985) identified some of the hair of Egyptian Pharoah Rameses II as being a yellowish-red. Such a finding should not be surprising given the wide range of physical variability in Africa, the most genetically diverse region on earth, out of which flowed other population groups. Indeed, blondism and various other hair shades are not unknown in East Africa or Nubia, particularly in children, nor are such hair color variants uncommon in dark-haired or dark skinned populations like the Australians. (Hrdy 1978) Given the range of genetic variability in Africa, a red-haired Rameses is hardly unusual. Rameses' reign, in the 19th Dynasty, came over 1,500 years after the Egyptian state had been established, and after the Hyskos interlude. Such latecomers to Egypt, like the Hyskos, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs etc would add their own genetic strands to the nation’s mix. Whatever the blend of genes that occurred with Rameses, his hair offers little supposed "proof" of a "white" or "Nordic" Egypt. If anything, X-rays of the royal mummies from earlier Dynasties by mainstream scientists show that the Egyptians pharaohs and other royals had varied 'Negroid' leanings. See X-Rays of the Royal mummies here, or here.
Pheomelanin and Rameses- found in light and dark-haired populations: The finding of Rameses “red” hair also deserves further scrutiny. The analysis found evidence of dyeing to make the hair yellowish-red, but some elements were untouched by the dye. These elements of yellowish-red hair in Balout’s study, were established on the basis of the presence of pheomelanin, a red-brown polymeric pigment in the skin and hair of humans. However, pheomelanin can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well, which gives it a reddish hue. Most natural melanins contain sulfur, which is typically associated with pheomelanin. In scientific tests of melanin, black hair contained as much as 5% sulfur, 3% lower than the 8.8% found in Irish red hair, but exceeding the 2.3% found in Scandinavian blond hair. (Jolles, et al. 1996) Thus the yellowish-red hair discovered on Rameses is well within the range of human variation for dark haired people, whatever the exact gene combination that led to the condition.
Rameses hair was not a typical European red, but yellowish-red, within African variation. It was also not ultra straight, further undermining claims of "Nordic" influence. Somalians and Ethiopians are SUB-SAHARANS and they routinely produce straight-haired people without the need for any "race mix" to explain why. The analysis on Rameses also did not show classic "European" red hair but hair of a light red to yellowish tinge. Black haired or dark-skinned populations are quite capable of producing such yellowish-red color variants on their own, as can be seen in today's east and northeast Africa (see child's photo above). Nor is such color variation unusual to Africa. Native dark-skinned populations in Australia, routinely produce people with blond or reddish hair. As noted above, ultra diverse Africa is the original source of such variation.
The analysis also found the hair to be cymotrich or wavy, again a characteristic quite within the range of overall African or Nile valley physical and genetic diversity. A "pure" Nordic type of straight hair was thus not established for Rameses. Hence the notion of white Europeans or red-headed Caucasoids from other areas flowing into ancient Egypt to add hair variation, particularly the early centuries of the dynastic state is unlikely. Such flows may have occurred most heavily in the Greek and Roman era but say nothing about the thousands of years preceding. The presence of pheomelanin conditions or other genetic combinations also explains how the different hair used in Egyptian wigs could vary in color, aside from environmental oxidation, bleaching and dyeing.
Red hair is rare worldwide, and history shows little evidence of Northern Europeans or "Nordics" sweeping into Egypt to give the natives a bit of hair coloring or variation. Most red hair is found in northern and western Europe, especially in the British Isles, and even then it appears in minor frequencies in Europe- some 4% of the population. It is unlikely such populations had any major contact or influence in the ancient Nile Valley. As noted above, red hair is comparatively rare in the world’s populations and pheomelanin conditions are found in dark-haired populations, and thus is well within the range of variation from the Sahara, East Africa and the Nile valley. “White Aryan” theories of Egypt are seen in the works of HFK Gunther (1927), Archibald Sayce (1925) and Raymond Dart (1939), and still find traction on a number of 'Aryan', neo-nazi and "race" websites and blogs which purport to show a "white Nordic Egypt" using Rameses' "red" hair as an example. Today's scientific research however, has debunked these dubious views, showing that red hair, while not common world wide, is a well known variant within human populations, even those with dark hair.
Straight or curly hair is also routine among sub-Saharans like Somalians, who are firmly part of the East African populations. As regards Somalians for example, Somali DNA overwhelmingly links much more heavily with other Africans including Kenyans & Ethiopians (85%), than with Europeans & Middle Easterners. (15%) On Y-chromosome markers (E3b1), Somalis (77%) and other African populations dwarf small European (5.1%) or Middle Eastern (6.3%) frequencies. “The data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the East African population..” (Sanchez et al., High frequencies of Y chromosome lineages.. in Somali males (2005)
As one mainstream researcher notes about the dubious value of "racial" hair analysis:
"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories. Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as 1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically indistinguishable". --Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2 [/quote]
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
The sad part is that white cultural domination is so pervasive that black women don't even think they are doing anything unusual and swear this is simply themselves being "creative".
Almost all of these hairstyles should be recognizable because you have seen them on black actresses and entertainers over the last 20 years. That is how they promote these styles to the masses not to mention in the salons. But yet you still got black folks swearing this is their own "African" creativity.
http://www.wigs.com/index.php?cPath=70 (most are the same styles sold to white women...) And why on earth are black women in their 20s and 30s wearing wigs and weaves? I mean no other population on earth needs to wear weaves and wigs at that age. The reason is because their hair is so damaged from straightening, weaves and chemicals that it is short and delicate. So they wear weaves and wigs to hide it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_cut French Actress Polaire, born in Algeria with her "black slave": [IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/24/Polaire_with_slave.jpg/800px-Polaire_with_slave.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaire She was well known for wearing short hair in Europe before it became fashionable.
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/annaberthold/2677325326/sizes/l/in/photostream/
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With the same amount of media push, these could become the only type of hair women the world over want to have:
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/lindsaystark/358454678/in/set-72157594481188681/
