The Kabyle, the largest group of Berbers, are located in Morocco, Tunisia, western Libya, and the coastal mountain regions of northern Algeria. The Kabyle live in the rugged, well-watered al-Quabail Mountains. These inaccessible peaks have long served as a refuge for the Berbers, forming a base of resistance against the Romans, Vandals, Byzantine, and Arabs. The mountains, some rising about 7,000 feet, are well watered. However, the landscape remains rugged. Migration is becoming more common among the Berbers, and it is estimated that several million Berbers now live in European cities. Most Kabyle are shepherds and farmers. They are careful workers and have developed an extensive terracing system on the steep mountain slopes, making the most of the available terrain. Their staple crops are grains and fruits.
The Kabyle traditionally live in hilltop villages. Their homes are built of stones and have red tiled roofs, and each dwelling includes a stable and a living area. There is plenty of water in some areas; however, in some places, the women must travel long distances to obtain it. They must carry heavy water jars uphill over steep, rugged, donkey paths.
The Kabyle believe in preserving the family. Even when a family member is forced by economic or social reasons to migrate to cities in Northern Africa or Europe, family ties remain strong. Family unity is further strengthened in their marriage customs and inheritance rights. Often times, an entire family lives in one small hut, sharing everything. The father is the head of the family, and the family ancestry is traced through the males. According to tradition, a local assembly, which is made up of the heads of all families, governs the villages.
The men wear long robes and long white scarves wrapped into turbans that cover their heads and necks. Those living in cities often wear western style suit jackets along with their traditional attire. The women wear long, flowing, ornamented dresses with colorful head coverings. The older women may wear tattoos on their foreheads after having their first male heir.
What are their beliefs? Almost all Algerians are Muslim, but they do not strictly observe the laws of the Koran. Upon converting to Islam, the Kabyle kept many of their traditional beliefs, especially that of pre-Islamic saint worship. However, they celebrate the usual Muslim holidays and visit friends and neighbors during these festive times. Weddings are lengthy celebrations that often last several days.
quote:Originally posted by Amur:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Amur: My ancestry is Kabyle/French.
what is the primary ancestral background of the Kabyle? where do they begin?
That will make a good topic and I will make a thread some time maybe. Of course there's been population movements and mixture in the region, however the Kaybles trace back to the Capsian, a pre-neolithic culture. The Arabization among the Kabyles was mainly a religion process rather than biological, as opposed to other Berber groups. This has long been known, and the Kabyles have been considered some sort of "pure race" having resisted assimilation. IMO the "blonde kabyle" stuff you read on certain webforums is greatly exaggerated, however those sort of features do appear more frequently than in other North Africans. Still though they are rare. While some easily pass as southern European or "white", most in general, as in my family, look "3/4 white". However this is probably what the Capsians looked like and they weren't mixed, here's an example of a Kabyle girl:
I've seen on this forum this sort of phenotype called "mulatto", however it isn't with most Kabyles. [/QB]
The problem is there is a 1000 or more gap between the end of the Capsian, last of the green period hunter gathers and any evidence of human settlement up to around 1000 BC. So the Capsian people may have left the region entirely and until proven otherwize the Maghreb was uninabited for over 1000 years. A simlar thing happened in another place, after the Mesopotamian Ubaid culture which was extended into Arabia there was a similar period of what seems to be nothing happening on the Arabian penninsula. It is possible that nobody in the Magheb has deep roots, that the berbers are combination of people from outside and inside Africa indigenous Africans coming from the south.
Taking it back further before the Capsians, Swenet had argued that the Iberomaurusian were originally Eurasian
please put up ypur favorite history of the Kabyle source text Kabyle women and child in Algeria. 1800s
Posted by Amur (Member # 20845) on :
I will get back to you in detail on this when I get the time. I would also like to show some anthropological sources.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
________________________________________
However below is a picture marked Kabyle in the caption. It says Ourilah = la Kabyle. I don't know what Ourilah means (our God? - doesn't seem right) Anyway there are some similarities to the girl above but also significant differences. I'm not sure if because she is odd looking we can assume this must be the original Kabyle. If it were a sub saharan African mixed with an Indian, that might not be right but it could be believable in terms of looks and nomadic people covering a wide range integregrated a lot of people from different places. Some suggest Austrailoid I suppose becuase of her hair but I don't see it. Most of the Austrailan aborginees have broader faces, this woman's face is quite long.
_______________________
Below another berber woman, a little similar to the woman above yet of a type that looks like no other person I've seen before. Could it be a descndant of the Capsian or Iberomaurusian. All I can say is she does not look like other Africans to me - or anyone else.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: All this talk of the prehistoric presence of anatomically modern humans in North Africa and specifically the Maghreb remind me of certain populations in the area some of which are relatively isolated who exhibit robust cranio-facial features ...
If you can get the book Imazighen: The Vanishing Traditions of Berber Women Margaret Courtney-Clarke; Geraldine Brooks New York: C. Potter, 1996
it's got at least one pic of an archaic admixed looking woman in the mountain fastnesses. I've never seen the type anywhere else in print or the 'net. It's either overlooked (intentionally ?) or it's very rare.
It's one of the books of my now lost personal library. I'll try and find it and scan the relevant pics.
OK here it is (finally)
^^^ however I don't know if she is supposed to be from Algeria or is Kabyle. She does have that same long faces and high cheekbones, could pass for the woman before her's grandmother
Please people keep it on the Kabyle topic, not berber general, thanks
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amur: I will get back to you in detail on this when I get the time. I would also like to show some anthropological sources.
also if you get time I suspect that some of the best writing on the Kabyle is in French. If you find some you could put it through google translate into English for us. Also the picture above with the caption "Ourilah = la Kabyle" is a postcard maybe some of the handwriting if enlarged could be read ?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
The Complex and Diversified Mitochondrial Gene Pool of Berber Populations 2012
C. Coudray1∗ , A. Olivieri2,
Populations
We studied 295 unrelated and healthy individuals from four different Berber populations. Three groups were from Morocco, Asni (N = 53), Bouhria (N = 70) and Figuig (N = 94), and one was from the Egyptian oasis of Siwa (N = 78). The geographical location of the sampled sites is presented in Figure 1. Asni is located in the Tacheddirt valley in the High Atlas Mountains (47 km from Marrakech). The Berbers from Asni speak Chleuh and belong to the Rhiraya tribe. Sidi Bouhria is located in north-eastern Morocco (Oujda wilaya). Berbers from Bouhria belong to the Beni Moussi Roua fraction of the Beni Iznasen tribe. Figuig is located in eastern Morocco, at the Algerian border, at the juncture of the High Plateaus and the north-western edge of the Sahara. It is an oasis encompassing seven villages, and the Berber population that we studied lives in the largest of these, Zenaga. The Siwa oasis is located in the western Egyptian desert, at 300 km from the Mediterranean coast and 25 km from the Libyan border. This population speaks Siwi, a Berber language. Before blood collection, people were interviewed in order to ascertain their ethnic origins and to obtain informed consent. All individuals and their families included in this study have been living in the area of interest for at least three generations. In addition, mtDNA haplogroup information from 58 European, Near Eastern, and African populations was used for comparative analyses
^^^ Am I correct that none of these groups is Kabyle? If that is so why weren't they included?
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
For some reason this Amur character hasn't responded yet,
Here is the original source on the Subject: Women, Kabiye--Algeria; Ourilah.
Berber woman dressed in ethnic costume of Kabylie in the northeast of Algeria, ca. 1903
Repository: University of Washington Libraries. Special Collections Division
Aren't the Kabyle a recent Berber group?
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Aren't the Kabyle a recent Berber group?
What do you mean by recent?
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Aren't the Kabyle a recent Berber group?
What do you mean by recent?
I keep hearing that after the Moorish were expelled from Iberia, that's when you start to see Kabyle Berbers. I know the early Kabyle were depicted as brown to nearly black. I'm just saying I heard them and the Rif Berbers are more recent while Berbers like the Tuareg and Sanhaja are much older.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Aren't the Kabyle a recent Berber group?
What do you mean by recent?
I keep hearing that after the Moorish were expelled from Iberia, that's when you start to see Kabyle Berbers. I know the early Kabyle were depicted as brown to nearly black. I'm just saying I heard them and the Rif Berbers are more recent while Berbers like the Tuareg and Sanhaja are much older.
Makilam is a Kabyle, a historian and a PhD. She was raised in a village of the Djurdjura, (a region of northern Algeria) until she was seventeen, and has since lived in Europe. She has always remained very close to her roots, and her testimony, interspersed with personal experiences, sheds completely new light on the rituals and myths of this vanishing society.
^^^ somebody could say, being a Kabyle is why she claims kabyle are the oldest berber group in NA.
I'm having trouble finding good infor on the origins of the Kabyle. It could be that no one really knows. Also they have integrated a lot of people of differnt ethnic groups into their tribes.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Zidane is of Kabyle Berber descent.His parents, Smaïl and Malika, emigrated to Paris from the village of Aguemoune in the Berber-speaking region of Kabylie in northern Algeria in 1953 before the start of the Algerian War.
Zinedine Yazid Zidane (French pronunciation:, born 23 June 1972) is a French assistant coach and sporting director at Real Madrid, and a retired footballer who played as an attacking midfielder for the French national team, Juventus and Real Madrid. Renowned for his elegance, vision and technique, Zidane was named the best European footballer of the past 50 years by UEFA,and has been described as one of the greatest players in the history of the game.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
It always irks me to hear Mulattoes talk like that. And wouldn't you know it would take one of the most Albino types of those mulattoes to tell such lies. Mulattoes, honor you Black fathers and stop with the nonsense that you are anything but a tribe of mulattoes!
The Kabyles
The largest group of the mulatto peoples who call themselves Berbers, are the Kabyles or Kabylians of Algeria. Though the White man always calls them indigenous peoples, or cryptically says "their origins are uncertain" their origins are of course, well known. They are the Mulattoes of the Berber Numidians and the Germanic Alans and Vandals. The early history of Numidia can be found in "The Jugurthine War" (112-105 B.C.) by the Roman historian Gaius Crispus Sallust (86 - 35 B.C.).
Surprisingly, one of the new bastions of White lies and nonsense, Wikipedia: has one of the few somewhat accurate histories of the Kabyles.
Wikipedia
Kabyle people
Brief People's History (edited for grammar)
Kabylia is a series of villages on the peaks of the eastern part of the Atlas mountains (100 km east of Algiers) - In ancient times, Kabylia was a empty, rocky and wild area inhabited by various animals including bears, wild boars, wolfs, monkeys, eagles and even hayens. No Human settlement is mentioned in any historical books documenting the peaceful period between Numedians and Rome through the alliance and dating back to 500 B.C, against the Phoenicians.
It is not until the death of King Massinissa when his protege' nephew and General of Numedian Armies Jugurtha rebelled against Rome, from which he wanted separation, that the inaccessible highlands became inhabited. They are known as Jugurtha and followers' hiding, training and camping grounds.
These once forts of Jugurtha's warriors slowly became small villages with tradition of self-sustainability as hunters and farmers after the capture of Jugurtha. It is also where rebellion against Rome's attempt to administer Christianity was instigated, leading to the birth of the Protestant church under various denominations, amongst which Baptists, Donatists, Presbyterians, all of whom opposed Catholicism. for no less than three centuries, the relation between Roman Administration and the highlanders is one which can be characterized as a conflict of low intensity, through physical separation - The 1st (Rome) controlled the coastal areas and the valleys and, the second the highlands.
Then late third century, the Geiserics also known as the Vandals, a Germanic Klan and sworn enemy of Rome, cornered in the Iberia (Spain) peninsula had to find a place and an ally to escape the Roman chase through the Gaul (France) and west-southwest. The snowy, cold and inaccessible highlands of Kabylia and its likewise enemy of Rome is thus a natural match. The population of the villages of the Highlands, also known as Djurdjura, suddenly doubled as no less than 80,000 Vandal warriors with wife and children, i.e. families, filled the villages of Kabylia. Whereas the military forts were set on the lowers peaks closest to the sea known as Lower Kabylia, around the modern Algerian province of Bejia (Vgayet in Kabyle), the residential quarters in the higher lands of the Dhurdjura, also known as Great Kabylia. Thus, began the dense population of Kabylia.
Just days away by horse from Carthage, the Vandal-Numedian coalition successfully evicted Rome from North Africa. While this alliance earned the Numedians the Barbarians (Berberes fr.), by extension from their new allies, it also created the largest clan in the region. Kabylians to whom the term was exclusively assigned amongst north-Africans are indeed the largest ethnic group in North Africa. The term Berber, progressively was applied to all native north Africans, starting their invasion in 1871. Until then, and for centuries since the departure of Rome, North African is a vast territory occupied by a confederation of various Peoples and city-States, without a central power. Of these the Libyans to the Mauritanians, the Moors (Morocco), the Tunisians, the Touaregs (Sahel/Desert), the Mzab, the Chenouas, the Chaouis and Kabylians.
Numerous with their warrior-like, Kabylians are the only People on whom the Moslem invasion of north Africa had no effect. The nominal Moslem attribute assigned to them in modern times is the result of colonial French ignorant and random classification, as well as the creation of the territory called Algeria by decree of General Sneider, French Minister of war, in 1871. This assignment as well as the term Arabs to Numedians and north Africans in general is a colonial construction followed by its maintenance by the alliance of the regime alliance to the Baath ideologie, along a membership into the Arab League - Source of all Algerian post-colonial ills, including continual rebellion by the Kabylians, til today.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
wikipedia
Kabyle people
Genetics and physical anthropology
Y-Dna haplogroups, passed on exclusively through the paternal line, were found at the following frequencies in Kabylie:
E1b1b1b (E-M81) (47.36%), (aka E3)
R1*(xR1a) (15.78%) (later tested as R1b3/R-M269 (now R1b1a2)[11]),
J1 (15.78%),
F*(xH, I, J2,K) ( 10.52% )
E1b1b1c (E-M123) (10.52%).[12]
The North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation (including both E1b1b and J haplogroups) is largely of Semitic origin.[13]
MtDNA Haplogroups, inherited only from the mother, were found at the following frequencies:
H (32.23%), found throughout Europe;
U* (29.03% with 17.74% U6), common to North Africa; preHV (3.23%),
preV (4.84%), V (4.84%),
T* (3.23%), J* (3.23%), L1 (3.23%), L3e (4.84%), X (3.23%), M1 (3.23%), N (1.61%) and R (3.23%).
11. Adams et al. 2008, The genetic legacy of religious diversity and intolerance: paternal lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula
12 Arredi B, Poloni ES, Paracchini S, Zerjal T, Fathallah DM, Makrelouf M, Pascali VL, Novelletto A, Tyler-Smith C. (2004). "A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa". Am J Hum Genet. 75 (2): 338–345. doi:10.1086/423147. PMC 1216069. PMID 15202071.
13. Elizabeth Caldwell Hirschman and Donald Neal Yates. When Scotland Was Jewish: DNA Evidence, Archeology, Analysis of Migrations ... (quot: Haplogroup J is found at highest
I have read from a peer reviewed article that one of the two groups known as Harratins are considered to be aboriginal group of North Africa. When I get home, IF i remember I will post the name of that article.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Aren't the Kabyle a recent Berber group?
What do you mean by recent?
I keep hearing that after the Moorish were expelled from Iberia, that's when you start to see Kabyle Berbers. I know the early Kabyle were depicted as brown to nearly black. I'm just saying I heard them and the Rif Berbers are more recent while Berbers like the Tuareg and Sanhaja are much older.
Makilam is a Kabyle, a historian and a PhD. She was raised in a village of the Djurdjura, (a region of northern Algeria) until she was seventeen, and has since lived in Europe. She has always remained very close to her roots, and her testimony, interspersed with personal experiences, sheds completely new light on the rituals and myths of this vanishing society.
a lot of people of differnt ethnic groups into their tribes.
Hmmm, can you explain why her surname is German? And what is meant by, "the oldest"? What are we talking about"? Can you give a time stamp, a date?
As I wrote before, assimilation doesn't make someone indigenous.
Or, do I need to repost certain studies again?
quote:Most studies of European genetic diversity have focused on large-scale variation and interpretations based on events in prehistory, but migrations and invasions in historical times could also have had profound effects on the genetic landscape.The geographical distribution of North African ancestry in the peninsula does not reflect the initial colonization and subsequent withdrawal and is likely to result from later enforced population movement—more marked in some regions than in others—plus the effects of genetic drift.
quote: The established population of the Iberian Peninsula prior to 711 CE has been estimated at 7–8 million people, ruled by about 200,000 Germanic Visigoths,19 who had entered from the north in the sixth century. Though the initial invading North African force was between 10,000 and 15,000 strong, the scale of subsequent migration and settlement is uncertain, with some claiming numbers in the hundreds of thousands. 20 Islamization of the populace after the invasion was certainly rapid, but it has been argued that this reflects an exponential social process of religious conversion rather than a substantial immigration;21 a sizeable proportion of the indigenous population (the so-called Mozarabs) was allowed to retain its Christian practices, as a result of the religious tolerance of the Muslim rulers.22 There is also doubt about the extent of intermarriage between indigenous people and settlers in the early phase.20 After the overthrow of Islamic rule in most of the peninsula, a period of tolerant coexistence (convivencia) ensued in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, but after 1492 (1496 in Portugal), religious intolerance forced Spanish Muslims to either convert to Christianity (as so-called moriscos) or leave.23 After the fifteenth century, moriscos were relocated across Spain on occasion, and, finally, during 1609–1616, over 200,000 were expelled, mostly from Valencia.
MtDNA Haplogroups, inherited only from the mother, were found at the following frequencies:
H (32.23%), found throughout Europe;
U* (29.03% with 17.74% U6), common to North Africa; preHV (3.23%),
preV (4.84%), V (4.84%),
T* (3.23%), J* (3.23%), L1 (3.23%), L3e (4.84%), X (3.23%), M1 (3.23%), N (1.61%) and R (3.23%).
11. Adams et al. 2008, The genetic legacy of religious diversity and intolerance: paternal lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula
12 Arredi B, Poloni ES, Paracchini S, Zerjal T, Fathallah DM, Makrelouf M, Pascali VL, Novelletto A, Tyler-Smith C. (2004). "A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa". Am J Hum Genet. 75 (2): 338–345. doi:10.1086/423147. PMC 1216069. PMID 15202071.
13. Elizabeth Caldwell Hirschman and Donald Neal Yates. When Scotland Was Jewish: DNA Evidence, Archeology, Analysis of Migrations ... (quot: Haplogroup J is found at highest
A lot of those Hg's you can scratch off as European. Since these are fundamentally found in Africa.
And since you like to quote xyyMan, why don't you do it properly?
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Aren't the Kabyle a recent Berber group?
What do you mean by recent?
I keep hearing that after the Moorish were expelled from Iberia, that's when you start to see Kabyle Berbers. I know the early Kabyle were depicted as brown to nearly black. I'm just saying I heard them and the Rif Berbers are more recent while Berbers like the Tuareg and Sanhaja are much older.
Makilam is a Kabyle, a historian and a PhD. She was raised in a village of the Djurdjura, (a region of northern Algeria) until she was seventeen, and has since lived in Europe. She has always remained very close to her roots, and her testimony, interspersed with personal experiences, sheds completely new light on the rituals and myths of this vanishing society.
^^^ somebody could say, being a Kabyle is why she claims kabyle are the oldest berber group in NA.
I'm having trouble finding good infor on the origins of the Kabyle. It could be that no one really knows. Also they have integrated a lot of people of differnt ethnic groups into their tribes.
lol...I'm sorry but the Kabyle are not the oldest known group of North Africa. Where did she even get that from? Is there any historic records that even mention the Kabyle? Heres are some problems:
1. She just states North Africa in general...There are many groups in North Africa from Northern Sudan all the way to Morocco and older than the Kabyle.
2. She doesn't cite evidence or explain in full detail how their the oldest group. IIRC Tuaregs are the oldest group of Northwest Africa. Since...IIRC they have the oldest Berber langauge, but not only that they use the Ancient Garamante script.
3. She like other modern day Berbers seen to try and make the white looking ones indignous, when again there is no proof.
4. Like I said again the white looking Kabyles are a recent group. Just look at the clothing. Kabyle:
People from Balkans: Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: I have read from a peer reviewed article that one of the two groups known as Harratins are considered to be aboriginal group of North Africa. When I get home, IF i remember I will post the name of that article.
That is in fact what anthropology shows as well.
quote:: one of an Upper Paleolithic people of northern Africa closely related to Cro-Magnon man but having a broader nose, a sloping forehead, and heavy brow ridges
WHAT BONES CAN TELL: BIOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE HUNTER-GATHERERS OF THE MAGHREB:
quote: The extremely large skeletal samples that come from sites such as Taforalt (Fig. 8.13) and Afalou constitute an invaluable resource for understanding the makers of Iberomaurusian artifacts, and their number is unparalleled elsewhere in Africa for the early Holocene. Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin, though attempts, such as those of Ferembach (1985), to establish similarities with much older and rarer Aterian skeletal remains are tenuous given the immense temporal separation between the two (Close and Wendorf 1990). At the opposite end of the chronological spectrum, dental morphology does suggest connections with later Africans, including those responsible for the Capsian Industry (Irish 2000) and early mid-Holocene human remains from the western half of the Sahara (Dutour 1989), something that points to the Maghreb as one of the regions from which people recolonised the desert (MacDonald 1998).
Turning to what can be learned about cultural practices and disease, the individuals from Taforalt, the largest sample by far, display little evidence of trauma, though they do suggest a high incidence of infant mortality, with evidence for dental caries, arthritis, and rheumatism among other degenerative conditions. Interestingly, Taforalt also provides one of the oldest known instances of the practice of trepanation, the surgical removal of a portion of the cranium; the patient evidently survived for some time, as there are signs of bone regrowth in the affected area. Another form of body modification was much more widespread and, indeed, a distinctive feature of the Iberomaurusian skeletal sample as a whole. This was the practice of removing two or more of the upper incisors, usually around puberty and from both males and females, something that probably served as both a rite of passage and an ethnic marker (Close and Wendorf 1990), just as it does in parts of sub-Saharan Africa today (e.g., van Reenen 1987). Cranial and postcranial malformations are also apparent and may indicate pronounced endogamy at a much more localised level (Hadjouis 2002), perhaps supported by the degree of variability between different site samples noted by Irish (2000).
--Lawrence Barham The First Africans: African Archaeology from the Earliest Toolmakers to Most Recent Foragers (Cambridge World Archaeology)
quote:
Craniometric data from seven human groups (Tables 3, 4) were subjected to principal components analysis, which allies the early Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-e) with mid-Holocene “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania [18], [26], [27] and with Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and early Holocene Capsians from across the Maghreb (see cluster in Figure 6). The striking similarity between these seven human populations confirms previous suggestions regarding their affinity [18] and is particularly significant given their temporal range (Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene) and trans-Saharan geographic distribution (across the Maghreb to the southern Sahara).
[...]
Trans-Saharan craniometry. Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero, who were buried with Kiffian material culture, with Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene humans from the Maghreb and southern Sahara referred to as Iberomaurusians, Capsians and “Mechtoids.” Outliers to this cluster of populations include an older Aterian sample and the mid-Holocene occupants at Gobero associated with Tenerean material culture.
Craniometric data from seven human groups (Tables 3, 4) were subjected to principal components analysis, which allies the early Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-e) with mid-Holocene “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania [18], [26], [27] and with Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and early Holocene Capsians from across the Maghreb
Figure 6. Principal components analysis of craniofacial dimensions among Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.
Table 3. Nine human populations sampled for craniometric analysis ranging in age from the Late Pleistocene (ca. 80,000 BP, Aterian) to the mid-Holocene (ca. 4000 BP) and in geographic distribution across the Maghreb to the southern Sahara [18], [19], [26], [27], [54]. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0002995.t003
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
Again like I said Kabyles are a recent Berber group, especially the white looking ones.
890 –“The Kabyles or Kabaily of Algerian and Tunisian territories…besides tillage, work the mines contained in their mountains…They live in huts made of branches of trees and covered with clay which resemble the Magalia of the old Numidians…They are of middle stature, their complexion brown and sometimes nearly black.” Written in The Encyclopedia Britannica: Dictionary of Arts, Sciences and General Literature Henry G. Allen Company p. 261 Volume I 1890.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote: Even if archaeological and paleoanthropological records testify to the ancient (Paleolithic) human occupation of North Africa, the evolution of human groups living in that area is still unclear. This is mainly due to the large number of successive prehistoric and historic events that occurred in that area after the arrival of the first modern humans. In North Africa, the presence of Berbers – a term to denote those populations which speak a Berber language (Camps 1980) – is well described since the Capsian (10,000–4700 years ago), although this industry derived from oldest cultures. Nevertheless, it was only during the Neolithic transition (around 6000 years ago in the Saharan areas and 5000 years ago in the Maghreb) that North Africa was incontestably marked by various cultural events. Then, Berbers experienced a long and complicated history with many invasions, conquests and migrations by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals and Byzantines (Brett & Fentress 1996). The most significant event was the Arab conquest, begun during the 7th century, when North Africans were converted to Islam, and Arabic became the official unique language employed. In spite of strong resistance, Berbers acquiesced to Arab authority.
Refractory groups were driven out and constrained to more isolated areas. This troubled past directly influenced the geographical distribution of Berber communities which are nowadays scattered in a vast region extending from Mauritania to Egypt (Siwa oasis) and from the Sahara desert to the Moroccan Atlas mountainous areas. Over the course of time, the various populations that migrated to North Africa have probably left a footprint in the gene pool of modern Berbers.
--C. Coudray et al.
The Complex and Diversified Mitochondrial Gene Pool of Berber Populations
MtDNA Haplogroups, inherited only from the mother, were found at the following frequencies:
H (32.23%), found throughout Europe;
U* (29.03% with 17.74% U6), common to North Africa; preHV (3.23%),
preV (4.84%), V (4.84%),
T* (3.23%), J* (3.23%), L1 (3.23%), L3e (4.84%), X (3.23%), M1 (3.23%), N (1.61%) and R (3.23%).
11. Adams et al. 2008, The genetic legacy of religious diversity and intolerance: paternal lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula
12 Arredi B, Poloni ES, Paracchini S, Zerjal T, Fathallah DM, Makrelouf M, Pascali VL, Novelletto A, Tyler-Smith C. (2004). "A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa". Am J Hum Genet. 75 (2): 338–345. doi:10.1086/423147. PMC 1216069. PMID 15202071.
13. Elizabeth Caldwell Hirschman and Donald Neal Yates. When Scotland Was Jewish: DNA Evidence, Archeology, Analysis of Migrations ... (quot: Haplogroup J is found at highest
A lot of those Hg's you can scratch off as European. Since these are fundamentally found in Africa.
And since you like to quote xyyMan, why don't you do it properly?
I didn't quote xyyman at all. I put his name up because I thought he might have something to say about this.
As ususal and unlike other posters you put up some of the same charts that you have put up ten times before, people don't read what they have seen you post ten times before and it merely becomes visual spam in a thread. Why don't you just use urls instead of posting the same charts you have poste over ten times before? Are you intentionally trying to disrupt the thread with repetition?
The Kabyle are an Alergian highland population of 5.5 million. This includes higher elevations in the Atlas mountains
At 6,575 feet the summits of Mount Babor in the Little Kabylie region are covered with snow for four or five months, while the Moroccan High Atlas retains its snows until the height of summer. Winter in the Atlas is hard, imposing severe conditions upon the inhabitants.-Britannica
Comparitively current populations in the Kilamanajro region, the Chage,Tanzania are believed to not have lived in the region that long and they live in the lowland areas which are tropical
.
If there was a deep rooted indigenous African population of the high Atlas region would be cold adapted rather than tropical
You said " A lot of those Hg's you can scratch off as European. Since these are fundamentally found in Africa"
Tell us which these are.
Even before scratching off anything they are 48% E3 (M81) and ssuming that M81 is indigenous African and derived from an East African parent hg this means all these people you have been saying don't look African, the average majority Kabyle person of today, are in fact primarily African and cold adapted
so any people who had actually been living in the mountainous regions, assuming people had lived there continously since prehistoric tiems would be cold adapted and unlike other North African populations and might not comform to you saying somebody looks African somebody else does not.
And realize general info about North Africa doesn't apply to the unique climate that the Kabyle live in
Posted by Bilal Dogon -aka blingdogg (Member # 21572) on :
But Lioness, how do you explain the pics that Son of Ra posted, showing how similar they look to Balkans people? And that the older Kabyle populations were described and shown as brown or nearly black?
I have no side in this argument, I"m just wonderin.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: So any people who had actually been living in the mountainous regions, assuming people had lived there continously since prehistoric tiems would be cold adapted and unlike other North African populations and might not comform to you saying somebody looks African somebody else does not.
And realize general info about North Africa doesn't apply to the unique climate that the Kabyle live in
"COLD ADAPTED"
"UNIQUE CLIMATE"
Ha,ha,ha,ha:
DAMN YOU'RE STUPID!
But seriously, after I have just destroyed you decrepit Albinos nonsense about "Cold adapted" in another thread, you have the G.D. nerve to bring that sh1t up here just a few hours later???
Damn, every time I think that I have found an insult commensurate with the degeneracy of you Albinos, you prove to me that I'm not even close.
Anyway:
The Atlas Mountains is a mountain range across the northwestern stretch of Africa extending about 2,500 km (1,600 mi) through Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia. The highest peak is Toubkal, with an elevation of 4,167 metres (13,671 ft) in southwestern Morocco. The Atlas ranges separate the Mediterranean and Atlantic coastlines from the Sahara Desert. The population of the Atlas Mountains is mainly Berbers.
Morocco - High Atlas - Aghmat - Berber Market Day
Ya lioness, right away I could tell that these are unique "Cold Adapted" people.
As I always say:
Damn you're stupid! Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon -aka blingdogg: But Lioness, how do you explain the pics that Son of Ra posted, showing how similar they look to Balkans people? And that the older Kabyle populations were described and shown as brown or nearly black?
I have no side in this argument, I"m just wonderin.
look at the postcard photo
________________________________________
Now look at this:
^^^another photo late 1800s It's hard to tell the complexion, it looks somewhat dark, The nose of the girl on the postcard looks significantly broader than the women below,
These photos are only around the turn of the 19th and 20th century.
If the Kabyle were primarily brown skinned and wide nosed writers prior to then would have been noting this. European looking people did not all of the sudden show up in an obscure hard to live in mountainous region of North Africa in the early 1900s. This stuff has to make sense historically, think about it.
How long have they lived in the upper elevations of the Atlas? Was it a long time or did they coem form lowlands but only went to the mountains to escape various foreign invaders? I don't know. So being cold adapted I'm not sure about it. Another option is that no one had lived in the Atlas mountains until 800-1000 BC or more recently. And either no one had ever lived there before that or that if people did it was for a period that stopped in prehistoric times without continuity to the present.
Look at the confusion in the argumentaion going on here. First people are saying the Kabyles were recent and at the same time they are straight haired "blacks" -so them are they recent ??
I can't explain some of these appearance differences in the photos . If we look at these photos we don't know the exact location the people came from or even if it's Algeria or Morocco. Were the people all brown skinned and borad nosed and Europeans all of the sudden popped up within the past 100 years and pretended they were them, a discrinianted against poor minority? Doesn't make sense unless perhaps a significant European component going back as far as the Vandals in the 5th century. Europeans, Truks and Arabs had already established presence in North Africa hundreds of years before that on better quality land
here's a section from the book of which I posted the photo and more photos:
Algerian memories; a bicycle tour over the Atlas to the Sahara. by Fanny Bullock Workman (1859-1925) and William Hunter Workman (1847-1937). London: T. Fisher Unwin, 1895.
The climate is like that of other interior high parts of Algeria, more rigorous than that of the coast. The villages and towns vary in altitude from eight to twelve hundred metres, and accordingly, a freezing temperature is often experienced in winter. Snow sometimes falls, though rain is most common to that season. The most delightful months, when the world below Djurjura is like a garden of Paradise, are April, May and June. By June, the noonday heat becomes oppressive, but the nights are cool, as they are said to be throughout the hot weather.
If their country is curious and unique, the Kabyles of the Djurjura, direct descendants of the Berbers, are no less interesting. As to whether these Berbers, one branch of whom conquered Spain, came from the Aborigines, who were of mixed races, or were lineal descendants of the Numidians, authorities differ. To those who have studied the variety of types in the Kabylie, where blue eyes and red hair, black eyes and swarthy skin, brown eyes and bronze red faces with almost Ethiopian features are seen, the former supposition seems most plausible.
These hardy mountaineers of the Djurjura, unlike the Kabyles of Morocco or southern Algeria, seem to have preserved the warrior spirit of the Berbers, and in their mountain fastnesses remained unconquered by Roman, Moor or Turk. They first appear in history as a race under the Romans, who invaded their country but gained no foothold. The Arabs, under the Khalifs, established themselves temporarily there. The influence of their presence is seen in the adoption, by the Kabyles, of the religion of Mohammed, so far as they adopted any creed, and in the language, which is a mixture of Arabic and old Lybian.
The term Kabyle, applied by the people to themselves, is derived from the Arabic word Qebaiel, meaning league or clique. This name symbolises one of the most marked characteristics of the people, who from early times have been divided into cliques or tribes, to which the first allegiance of the individual is given. The existence of a strongly clannish spirit, more than is usual in other tribes in North Africa, led to discord and constant warfare among themselves up to the time of the French occupation. Although the religion and customs are practically the same throughout the Kabyle race, yet they like to speak of these as having rather a tribal than a racial significance. For example, a member of the tribe of Beni Yenni, which to-day occupies three villages, being asked as to certain Kabyle customs, replied 'With us, at Beni Yenni, we do so and so. Kayble Bride
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
^^^Yet you still ignore the description of them. -__-
890 –“The Kabyles or Kabaily of Algerian and Tunisian territories…besides tillage, work the mines contained in their mountains…They live in huts made of branches of trees and covered with clay which resemble the Magalia of the old Numidians…They are of middle stature, their complexion brown and sometimes nearly black.” Written in The Encyclopedia Britannica: Dictionary of Arts, Sciences and General Literature Henry G. Allen Company p. 261 Volume I 1890.
And you've seem to have forgot this colored photo. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
.
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Aren't the Kabyle a recent Berber group?
.
so are you retracting this?
I just put up a quote previously
"To those who have studied the variety of types in the Kabylie, where blue eyes and red hair, black eyes and swarthy skin, brown eyes and bronze red faces with almost Ethiopian features are seen, the former supposition seems most plausible." -1895
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Damn lioness, you get more pathetic by the day!
Answer Son of Ra's question you degenerate.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Damn lioness, you get more pathetic by the day!
Answer Son of Ra's question you degenerate.
Son of Ra does not need support from racist people who he as accurately proved to be stupid and who had insulted him earlier, butt out and stop competing for attention
low life stupid piece of shyt, looking at paintings or photos from under 150 years ago is irrelevant to your previous remarks, the quote from wikipedia which indicates European prescence much earlier and before the spread of Islam.
Your mental defect, clown is that you contradict yourself on a regular basis but don't know you do it
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
Surprisingly, one of the new bastions of White lies and nonsense, Wikipedia: has one of the few somewhat accurate histories of the Kabyles.
Wikipedia
Kabyle people
...
Then late third century, the Geiserics also known as the Vandals, a Germanic Klan and sworn enemy of Rome, cornered in the Iberia (Spain) peninsula had to find a place and an ally to escape the Roman chase through the Gaul (France) and west-southwest. The snowy, cold and inaccessible highlands of Kabylia and its likewise enemy of Rome is thus a natural match. The population of the villages of the Highlands, also known as Djurdjura, suddenly doubled as no less than 80,000 Vandal warriors with wife and children, i.e. families, filled the villages of Kabylia. Whereas the military forts were set on the lowers peaks closest to the sea known as Lower Kabylia, around the modern Algerian province of Bejia (Vgayet in Kabyle), the residential quarters in the higher lands of the Dhurdjura, also known as Great Kabylia. Thus, began the dense population of Kabylia.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: .
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Aren't the Kabyle a recent Berber group?
.
so are you retracting this?
I just put up a quote previously
"To those who have studied the variety of types in the Kabylie, where blue eyes and red hair, black eyes and swarthy skin, brown eyes and bronze red faces with almost Ethiopian features are seen, the former supposition seems most plausible." -1895
And? Does that prove they are indigenous? Also read your quote again...
"To those who have studied the *variety of types in the Kabylie*, where blue eyes and red hair, black eyes and swarthy skin, brown eyes and bronze red faces with almost *Ethiopian features* are seen, the former supposition seems most plausible."
Ethiopians=black IIRC. Your source is only stating that there was a variety of Kabyle people. We already know that. My point is...Are the white looking onesindignous/Ancient group. Which so far I've not seen any proof of this.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Enough with the bullsh1t about those North African Mulattoes. Here are some truly unique mountain people.
BASOTHO PEOPLE: BANTU PEOPLE WITH UNIQUE CULTURAL HERITAGE.
The Basotho people also known as Sotho, are Bantu people of the Kingdom of Lesotho (lusō'tō), an enclave within the Republic of South Africa. Maseru is the capital and largest city. There are ten administrative districts. Lesotho is often referred to as "the roof of Africa," its a beautiful country.
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Aren't the Kabyle a recent Berber group?
.
so are you retracting this?
I just put up a quote previously
"To those who have studied the variety of types in the Kabylie, where blue eyes and red hair, black eyes and swarthy skin, brown eyes and bronze red faces with almost Ethiopian features are seen, the former supposition seems most plausible." -1895
And? Does that prove they are indigenous? Also read your quote again...
"To those who have studied the *variety of types in the Kabylie*, where blue eyes and red hair, black eyes and swarthy skin, brown eyes and bronze red faces with almost *Ethiopian features* are seen, the former supposition seems most plausible."
Ethiopians=black IIRC. Your source is only stating that there was a variety of Kabyle people. We already know that. My point is...Are the white looking onesindigenous/Ancient group. Which so far I've not seen any proof of this.
there is no hard proof for anything I've said or you said, also somebody broad nosed and dark skinned is not even necessarily deep rooted North African, they could have been SSA migrants at any point within several hundred years who admixed with others. Or they could be indigenous.
^^^ I already posted this in advance of what you posted.
I can't explain why she looks like this. She has straight hair what ethnic group in North Africa has straight hair like this? I'm not talking about posting random pictures of people that might have Indian admixture I'm talking about a namable tribe in North Africa. Did this particular woman live in high altitude mountain regions. I don't know.
Are some of the Kabyles descended from Germanic Vandals of the 5th century who invaded ? If so it is many hundreds of years before these photos and paintings we are looking at. And as I have shown many times before there is such thing as a "swarthy" European
this man might be some admixture. Its hard to tell but he may have been brown skinned
Again, Europeans and other foreigners had been in North Africa hundreds of years before the advent of photography
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
xyyman ....
________________________________________________ I didn't quote xyyman at all. I put his name up because I thought he might have something to say about this.
As ususal and unlike other posters you put up some of the same charts that you have put up ten times before, people don't read what they have seen you post ten times before and it merely becomes visual spam in a thread. Why don't you just use urls instead of posting the same charts you have poste over ten times before? Are you intentionally trying to disrupt the thread with repetition?
The Kabyle are an Alergian highland population of 5.5 million. This includes higher elevations in the Atlas mountains
At 6,575 feet the summits of Mount Babor in the Little Kabylie region are covered with snow for four or five months, while the Moroccan High Atlas retains its snows until the height of summer. Winter in the Atlas is hard, imposing severe conditions upon the inhabitants.-Britannica
Comparitively current populations in the Kilamanajro region, the Chage,Tanzania are believed to not have lived in the region that long and they live in the lowland areas which are tropical
.
If there was a deep rooted indigenous African population of the high Atlas region would be cold adapted rather than tropical
You said " A lot of those Hg's you can scratch off as European. Since these are fundamentally found in Africa"
Tell us which these are.
Even before scratching off anything they are 48% E3 (M81) and ssuming that M81 is indigenous African and derived from an East African parent hg this means all these people you have been saying don't look African, the average majority Kabyle person of today, are in fact primarily African and cold adapted
so any people who had actually been living in the mountainous regions, assuming people had lived there continously since prehistoric tiems would be cold adapted and unlike other North African populations and might not comform to you saying somebody looks African somebody else does not.
And realize general info about North Africa doesn't apply to the unique climate that the Kabyle live in
As usually, you didn't understand that I reposted what I posted to another poster, to confirm his/ her findings. If you can't grasp this, the that's really sorry and pathetic. Since I didn't post it to you. Not everyone has seen the peer reviewed scholarship of these findings. In the meanwhile you keep reposting pseudo sources This is exactly the mental defected problem you have.
As if this was never spoken of before. lol
Anyway, Hg's: y-DNA; E, F, R, maternal-DNA; M, N, U6, L1 and L3. According to xyyMan Hg H is African in origin as well. And The Explorer once wrote that Hg T possible has an African root as well. I haven't looked into that, so I can't confirm it myself.
And instead of answering my question why Malika Grasshoff has a Germanic surname, you post nonsense about how many people live in Northern Algeria in present time. This quota has to do with copulation nothing else.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
your posts were also off topic. the topic is Kabyles
you posted
BIOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE HUNTER-GATHERERS OF THE MAGHREB:
and
Holocene population at Gobero
_______________________________
further you did not even connect them to modern haratin with proof (should different thread topic - something you rarely do, make a thread)
why are you doing a pm with a bunch of charts you posted over ten times before to to typeZeiss in a thread about Kabyle?
He went somewhat off topic from Kabyle but it was only two sentences, no problem your reply as usual a big post, info you have posted over ten times before, not even about the time perior being discussed- dry period sahara as xyyman and Calbooz pointed out "knee jerk- information overload"
the first thing to point out to type typeZeiss is the topic of berbers is braoder than just haratin vs, bidane
Modern Haratin origin is unclear. They should not be presented as descended from hunter gathers of the Maghreb, that is not proven. Most Haratine are descended from Bambara, Fulani, Soninké and Wolof
You should first start a thread to the effect "Are the Harratin the hunter gathers of the Magheb?" and then try to prove it But instead you present it as clear fact.
I wont talk about it further here this thread is on Kabyle
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: your posts were also off topic. the topic is Kabyles
you posted
BIOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE HUNTER-GATHERERS OF THE MAGHREB:
and
Holocene population at Gobero
_______________________________
further you did not even coonnect them to modern haratin with proof (should different thread topic - something you rarely do, make a thread)
why are you doing a pm with a bunch of charts you posted over ten times before to to typeZeiss in a thread about Kabyle?
He went somewhat off topic from Kabyle but it was only two sentences, no problem your reply as usual a big post, info you have posted over ten times before, not even about the time perior being discussed- dry period sahara as xyyman and Calbooz pointed out "knee jerk- information overload"
No dumbass, it's on topic. It speaks of actual anthropological findings of the Magreb, from the Paleolithic to Mesolithic. It says that the bone formation clusters with people who came from the South (Holocene population at Gobero) and moved up North (Magreb). And since modern Haratin have certain traits, as is described in those studies, it becomes logic, as this can be seen in the CHARTS, you dumbo.
See, this is why it's needed to reposted. You don't think, you merrily iterate the same process over and over like a drone.
You are even to stupid to understand that the initial claim was about the oldest population of North Africa, and as I quote you. "info you have posted over ten times before, not even about the time perior being discussed- dry period sahara "Unquote.
I mean, how stupid can you be?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: No dumbass, it's on topic.
do you know what the thread topic is or is the thread topic private messages to typezeiss?
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: No dumbass, it's on topic.
do you know what the thread topic is or is the thread topic private messages to typezeiss?
Why should I post it as a private message, while people read along? That actually corrupts the thread to what really is being told about the ancient population of the Magreb. You want to truth to be censored.
Your logic comes from your behind.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
you should start a new topic idiot instead of trying to sidetrack,
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: you should start a new topic idiot instead of trying to sidetrack,
No, this is not sidetracking, I am on topic. It's called elaborating and bring actual arguments. You wanted to speak of the origin of the North African population. I provided sources, so can't say that I made it up. And I will keep doing so.
In the meanwhile I still haven't seen you explain why Malika Grasshoff has a Germanic surname. So all that is left for you is to derail the topic.
quote: Evidence from throughout the Sahara indicates that the region experienced a cool, dry and windy climate during the last glacial period, followed by a wetter climate with the onset of the current interglacial, with humid conditions being fully established by around 10,000 years BP, when we see the first evidence of a reoccupation of parts of the central Sahara by hunter gathers, most likely originating from sub-Saharan Africa (Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 1998; Goudie, 1992; Phillipson, 1993; Ritchie, 1994; Roberts, 1998).
[...]
Conical tumuli, platform burials and a V-type monument represent structures similar to those found in other Saharan regions and associated with human burials, appearing in sixth millennium BP onwards in northeast Niger and southwest Libya (Sivilli, 2002). In the latter area a shift in emphasis from faunal to human burials, complete by the early fifth millennium BP, has been interpreted by Di Lernia and Manzi (2002) as being associated with a changes in social organisation that occurred at a time of increasing aridity. While further research is required in order to place the funerary monuments of Western Sahara in their chronological context, we can postulate a similar process as a hypothesis to be tested, based on the high density of burial sites recorded in the 2002 survey. Fig. 2: Megaliths associated with tumulus burial (to right of frame), north of Tifariti (Fig. 1). A monument consisting of sixty five stelae was also of great interest; precise alignments north and east, a division of the area covered into separate units, and a deliberate scattering of quartzite inside the structure, are suggestive of an astronomical function associated with funerary rituals. Stelae are also associated with a number of burial sites, again suggesting dual funerary and astronomical functions (Figure 2). Further similarities with other Saharan regions are evident in the rock art recorded in the study area, although local stylistic developments are also apparent. Carvings of wild fauna at the site of Sluguilla resemble the Tazina style found in Algeria, Libya and Morocco (Pichler and Rodrigue, 2003), although examples of elephant and rhinoceros in a naturalistic style reminiscent of engravings from the central Sahara believed to date from the early Holocene are also present.
--Nick Brooks et al. (2004)
The prehistory of Western Sahara in a regional context: the archaeology of the "free zone"
Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research, Saharan Studies Programme and School of Environmental Sciences, University of East Anglia, Norwich, UK Coauthors: Di Lernia, Savino ((Department of Scienze Storiche, Archeologiche, e Antropologiche dell’Antichità, Faculty of Human Sciences, University of Rome “La Sapienza”, Via Palestro 63, 00185 – Rome, Italy) and Drake, Nick (Department of Geography, King’s College, Strand, London WC2R 2LS).
The people of Sahara still look like this.
SOR, nice post btw.
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: ^^^Yet you still ignore the description of them. -__-
890 –“The Kabyles or Kabaily of Algerian and Tunisian territories…besides tillage, work the mines contained in their mountains…They live in huts made of branches of trees and covered with clay which resemble the Magalia of the old Numidians…They are of middle stature, their complexion brown and sometimes nearly black.” Written in The Encyclopedia Britannica: Dictionary of Arts, Sciences and General Literature Henry G. Allen Company p. 261 Volume I 1890.
And you've seem to have forgot this colored photo.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Blessings to all.
I am no fan of stifiling free speech.
BUT
Really the Hatred of Lioness Mike etc is just too much. Really every thread is derailed with people back biting and attacking eachother. People BE EASY??? Let the sources Teach and stop the hate.
I don't think nor I care for Mikes Black Europe deface blah blah blah, BUT ITs no worse then Lioness White Berbers True Berbers etc. IF its TRUE..POST LINKS SO others can read and make up there mind. That's what matters MANY people read these forums without posting because its an website of LEARNING. WHen you swear and curse at eachother, The evidence gets buried and NO ONE LEARNS.
STOP THE HATE. Let the research speak for itself. Also people who HATE Whites, Should NOT use whites as there evidence. Really Whites are no different from Blacks. Searching for TRUTH. Truth Allows FREETHINKERS to transcend COlor and Champion Human RACE. That's why MANY Whites fight for Egypt to be known as BLACK COUNTRY. Lets let the TRUTH speak for us all and NOT the COLOR. Berbers are BLACK and WHITE!!!!! Original Berbers Were Majority Black. White Slave trade Affected North Africa more then any other region. Arabs in North Africa are really arabized Africans. Harratins are Not Slave decended but Original Berbers. Tuaregs are Linked with the very black Beja in Sudan, Rashida are from Saudi Arabia and are not ethic Africans but are African people. Kabyle majority WHITE, Are Decended from Ethnic Africans and Have claim to the continent.
I respect ALL peoples on these forums, But I don't support the egos. Lets let the PROOFS speak for us and NOT the EGOS.
Peace
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING: [QB] Blessings to all.
I am no fan of stifiling free speech.
BUT
Really the Hatred of Lioness Mike etc is just too much. Really every thread is derailed with people back biting and attacking eachother. People BE EASY??? Let the sources Teach and stop the hate.
I don't think nor I care for Mikes Black Europe deface blah blah blah, BUT ITs no worse then Lioness White Berbers True Berbers etc.
I never said anything like white berbers are true berbers, I gave an honest airing of both sides. The topic is not "who are the berbers" see Cheikh Anta Diop, African Origins book center of page, Clyde post the topic is specific to the Kabyle. Mike is a racial instigator. look how many threads he does with "albinos" in the title. He is obsessed on white people and calls mulattos "mutts". Men who call women "cunts" to hell with them
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING: Blessings to all.
I am no fan of stifiling free speech.
BUT
Really the Hatred of Lioness Mike etc is just too much. Really every thread is derailed with people back biting and attacking eachother. People BE EASY??? Let the sources Teach and stop the hate.
I don't think nor I care for Mikes Black Europe deface blah blah blah, BUT ITs no worse then Lioness White Berbers True Berbers etc. IF its TRUE..POST LINKS SO others can read and make up there mind. That's what matters MANY people read these forums without posting because its an website of LEARNING. WHen you swear and curse at eachother, The evidence gets buried and NO ONE LEARNS.
STOP THE HATE. Let the research speak for itself. Also people who HATE Whites, Should NOT use whites as there evidence. Really Whites are no different from Blacks. Searching for TRUTH. Truth Allows FREETHINKERS to transcend COlor and Champion Human RACE. That's why MANY Whites fight for Egypt to be known as BLACK COUNTRY. Lets let the TRUTH speak for us all and NOT the COLOR. Berbers are BLACK and WHITE!!!!! Original Berbers Were Majority Black. White Slave trade Affected North Africa more then any other region. Arabs in North Africa are really arabized Africans. Harratins are Not Slave decended but Original Berbers. Tuaregs are Linked with the very black Beja in Sudan, Rashida are from Saudi Arabia and are not ethic Africans but are African people. Kabyle majority WHITE, Are Decended from Ethnic Africans and Have claim to the continent.
I respect ALL peoples on these forums, But I don't support the egos. Lets let the PROOFS speak for us and NOT the EGOS.
Peace
Under the guise of love and fair play, you just slipped a few in, lets look at them.
Quote: Kabyle majority WHITE, Are Decended from Ethnic Africans and Have claim to the continent.
Fact is, that's a lie, and you have no way to support it.
I posted a Wiki link that clearly detailed Kabyle origins, yet you still make the ridiculous claim that they are natural Africans.
Sorry pal, liars, whether intentional or out of lazy ignorance, don't get to make moral judgements on my watch.
As to lioness, she is a degenerate liar, who lies about anything and everything, when she/he goes too far, I respond.
If we had a moderator, he/she would control lioness irksome lying. We don't, so insult is my only defense. You find bad language intolerable, I find gratuitous lying intolerable.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
^Mike, I think what he meant to say was, that they can "have African ancestry".
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Mike is a racial instigator. look how many threads he does with "albinos" in the title. He is obsessed on white people and calls mulattos "mutts". Men who call women "cunts" to hell with them
No, I am a racial REMINDER.
Ref. KINGS "Cumbayá" post, it sounds great, but has little basis in fact. Yes the average White person of today has no clue, and never did any of the White atrocities of the past. But that is because they are in control now, they have the money and the power. If they had to compete fairly with the rest of humanity would they behave the same?
Experience says no; by calling them and the Black hating wannabe mulattoes by their right names, I REMIND people WHY they behave as they do.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by KING: [QB] Blessings to all.
I am no fan of stifiling free speech.
BUT
Really the Hatred of Lioness Mike etc is just too much. Really every thread is derailed with people back biting and attacking eachother. People BE EASY??? Let the sources Teach and stop the hate.
I don't think nor I care for Mikes Black Europe deface blah blah blah, BUT ITs no worse then Lioness White Berbers True Berbers etc.
I never said anything like white berbers are true berbers, I gave an honest airing of both sides. The topic is not "who are the berbers" see Cheikh Anta Diop, African Origins book center of page, Clyde post the topic is specific to the Kabyle. Mike is a racial instigator. look how many threads he does with "albinos" in the title. He is obsessed on white people and calls mulattos "mutts". Men who call women "cunts" to hell with them
You indeed did not use those words, from what I can recall. However, you did post suggestive stuff. Indications indications indications.
And as usually you've been hiding behind other posters their comments.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: ^Mike, I think what he meant to say was, that they can "have African ancestry".
If that's what he meant, then the term is MULATTO!
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^ the caption here is Tunisie Enfant bedoine (Tunisia- bedouin child)
Here is the unusual combination, straight hair and broad African features ( and perhaps a touch of Dravidian Indian qualities also)
The term bedouin, if the label is correct, are a people who originate on the Arabian Peninsula.According to Muslim tradition, prophet Muhammad succeeded in converting most of the Bedouin to Islam before he died. The Bedouin warriors were the nucleus of the Muslim armies that invaded the Middle East and North Africa in the 7th century and later on.
So it is possible that this girl derives her hair from Arabians. She may be part Arab and part African. ( dana marniche would say that her hair is attributable to some peoples outside of Africa, not "Arab" but some other outside source) And if the girl is part African she may be part North African or may be part some other place in Africa, she does not neccessarily have African ancestry that is particular to the North we dont know) She has a large set of front teeth, maybe that is particular to some group (?)
So I am going to make a guess that the woman above her marked Kabyle is also part Arab, a person that may have been from an ancestry part bedouin and come into the Kabyle culture. The Kabyle were known to be resistant to foreign occupation. They may may have been driven to the mountains only when foreign occupiers came. But prior to major invasions of their territories to that they may have been a mixture of peoples from including various foreigners, who became culturally "bereberized" and later resisited and retreated from later incoming invasions of the Romans, Vandals, Arabs (but many forcibly converted to Islam nevertheless) and of the French beginning in 1830, but now many having assimilated elements of French cultutre. So the mixing may have been occuring as they tried to resist and retreat but were only semi-successful in doing so
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
^When all fantasies have been destroyed the picture spamming being again.
However, I have never received an answer to why...Malika Grasshoff has a Germanic surname.
quote:Then in 1928 the so-called “Tablettes Albertini” were found along the border between Algeria and Tunisia, in the area of ancient Numidia. They are rather well-preserved fifth-century wooden tablets, written with ink, containing a number of legal documents dating back to 493-496, during the reign of King Gunthamund (484-496).
Tracing the Language of the Vandalsmore by Nicoletta Onesti
It's not spamming. It's my thread, You can't spam your own thread are you crazy? >>>especially if the photos pertain directly to the Kabyle topic.
and these pictures are hard to find pictures of Kabyles and unlike you who posts the same thing 30-40 times, sometimes off topic, examples Harratin in a Kabyle thread, and most of these photos (I said most not all-listen) have never been posted on ES before
Now think about this a woman with a Germanic last name could she possibly have married a German man? I don't know look into it.
Would a name like Grasshoff be as old as the Vandals? My guess is not but I could be wrong, look into it, You can advance ahead to new research, if she was married or born as Grasshoff. Maybe she is only half berber.
I already cast some doubt on her remarks, so I don't know why you are fixated. On the other hand she wrote several books on the berbers, I think some from a feminist angle.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Pictures have their place TP, it is only spamming when the likes of lioness gets a hold of it.
From this picture of a Kabyle village in Morocco we can clearly see that Kabyles are a mixture of Black and Mulatto/Octaroons and the like.
Just as clearly, there is no way that these people could deny their Black heritage.
Yet now we have someone like this:
Who asserts that Kabyles look like this:
And she and her lying Pink Ass can speak for them.
This is also true of the Umbrella group who call themselves The Amazigh.
The absolute nerve and gall of these mulattoes, and even less color, trying to pass themselves off as Africans!
BUT WHAT MAKES IT EVEN WORST IS THIS:
NO WAY THIS BITCH Malika Grasshoff IS BERBER!
She is obviously a White/Albino woman. So how did she get to North Africa?
WITH THE FRENCH INVASION, THAT'S HOW!
Using Napoleon's 1808 contingency plan for the invasion of Algeria, 34,000 French soldiers landed twenty-seven kilometers west of Algiers, at Sidi Ferruch, on June 12, 1830. To face the French, the dey sent 7,000 janissaries, 19,000 troops from the beys of Constantine and Oran, and about 17,000 Kabyles. The French established a strong beachhead and pushed toward Algiers, thanks in part to superior artillery and better organization. Algiers was captured after a three-week campaign, and Hussein Dey fled into exile. French troops raped, looted (taking 50 million francs from the treasury in the Casbah), desecrated mosques, and destroyed cemeteries. It was an inauspicious beginning to France's self-described "civilizing mission," whose character on the whole was cynical, arrogant, and cruel. In 1834 France annexed the occupied areas, which had an estimated Muslim population of about 3 million, as a colony.
Even before the decision was made to annex Algeria, major changes had taken place. In a bargain-hunting frenzy to take over or buy at low prices all manner of property: homes, shops, farms and factories: Europeans poured into Algiers after it fell. French authorities took possession of the beylik lands, from which Ottoman officials had derived income. Over time, as pressures increased to obtain more land for settlement by Europeans, the state seized more categories of land, particularly that used by tribes, religious foundations, and villages.
Soon after the conquest of Algiers, the soldier-politician Bertrand Clauzel and others formed a company to acquire agricultural land and, despite official discouragement, to subsidize its settlement by European farmers, triggering a land rush. Clauzel recognized the farming potential of the Mitidja Plain and envisioned the production there of cotton on a large scale. As governor general (1835-36), he used his office to make private investments in land and encouraged army officers and bureaucrats in his administration to do the same. They created large agricultural tracts, built factories and businesses, and exploited cheap local labor.
Called colons (colonists) or, more popularly, pieds noirs (literally, black feet), the European settlers were largely of peasant farmer or working-class origin from the poor southern areas of Italy, Spain, and France. Others were criminal and political deportees from France, transported under sentence in large numbers to Algeria. In the 1840s and 1850s, to encourage settlement in rural areas official policy was to offer grants of land for a fee and a promise that improvements would be made. A distinction soon developed between the grands colons (great colonists) at one end of the scale, often self-made men who had accumulated large estates or built successful businesses, and the petits blancs (little whites), smallholders and workers at the other end, whose lot was often not much better than that of their Muslim counterparts. According to historian John Ruedy, although by 1848 only 15,000 of the 109,000 European settlers were in rural areas, "by systematically expropriating both pastoralists and farmers, rural colonization was the most important single factor in the destructuring of traditional society."
Whatever initial misgivings Louis Philippe's government may have had about occupying Algeria, the geopolitical realities of the situation created by the 1830 intervention argued strongly for reinforcing the French presence there. France had reason for concern that Britain, which was pledged to maintain the territorial integrity of the Ottoman Empire, would move to fill the vacuum left by a French pullout. The French devised elaborate plans for settling the hinterland left by Ottoman provincial authorities in 1830, but their efforts at state building were unsuccessful on account of lengthy armed resistance.
And here she is going all over the Albino world passing herself off as a Berber, and making lots of money.
Women's Worlds, Ottowa-Gatineau, Canada 3-7 July 2011.
Caption with photo:
Malika Grasshoff, Berber from North Africa — with Genevieve Vaughan.
(Albinos in the U.S. do the same thing, claim to be Indians to make money and get benefits)
Do you have a better understanding of how the world works now KING? Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Quote: Malika Grasshoff, Berber from North Africa — with Genevieve Vaughan.
I keep re-reading that, and don't know to laugh or cry. In this convoluted Albino mans world, White people with no color, can pass themselves off as Berbers/Africans. And what's even sicker, there are so many who believe them - Blacks included!
Posted by Bilal Dogon -aka blingdogg (Member # 21572) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: It's hard to tell the complexion, it looks somewhat dark, The nose of the girl on the postcard looks significantly broader than the women below,
These photos are only around the turn of the 19th and 20th century.
If the Kabyle were primarily brown skinned and wide nosed writers prior to then would have been noting this. European looking people did not all of the sudden show up in an obscure hard to live in mountainous region of North Africa in the early 1900s. This stuff has to make sense historically, think about it.
How long have they lived in the upper elevations of the Atlas? Was it a long time or did they coem form lowlands but only went to the mountains to escape various foreign invaders? I don't know. So being cold adapted I'm not sure about it. Another option is that no one had lived in the Atlas mountains until 800-1000 BC or more recently. And either no one had ever lived there before that or that if people did it was for a period that stopped in prehistoric times without continuity to the present.
Look at the confusion in the argumentaion going on here. First people are saying the Kabyles were recent and at the same time they are straight haired "blacks" -so them are they recent ??
I can't explain some of these appearance differences in the photos . If we look at these photos we don't know the exact location the people came from or even if it's Algeria or Morocco. Were the people all brown skinned and borad nosed and Europeans all of the sudden popped up within the past 100 years and pretended they were them, a discrinianted against poor minority? Doesn't make sense unless perhaps a significant European component going back as far as the Vandals in the 5th century. Europeans, Truks and Arabs had already established presence in North Africa hundreds of years before that on better quality land
Yeah this is why I think it’s nearly impossible to find out what the original Berber groups looked like. Not just the Kabyle but other groups as well. There’s so many conflicting reports made by ancient and modern historians who described Berbers: some saying they were light-skinned, black, white, mixed.... and often these descriptions could be for the exact same people, just at different time periods or for some inhabiting multiple countries. Same goes for pictures.
Just as you showed, some Kabyles looked black, some white and some in between, so which are the best representatives? Depending on who you ask, or from reading a different study, you’ll get a different response.
Berbers are so heterogenous that there’s no easy or single answer to what they look(ed) like. I believe that Berber groups could all be represented as black African, white African and mixed and all would be authentic. Some may have a larger population of people having one phenotype, but that doesn’t make them the “real” or “original” people, just that their population had the chance to increase faster than others (historical, environmental factors).
Yeah I know I don’t have a good answer, but I just think with the Sahara, Sahel and northern Africa having so many spots for isolated groups to live and stay unchanged phenotypically for centuries (ex. mountains, oases where recent foreign immigrant refugees could seek shelter, giving the appearance that they're the indigenous people), plus wandering populations intermixing since ancient times (some locations more than others, even within a single ethnic group, like Malian and Algerian Tuaregs), plus incoming blacks from the trans-Saharan slave trade, it’s nearly impossible to say which people represent the originals. Too much confusion.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon -aka blingdogg:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: It's hard to tell the complexion, it looks somewhat dark, The nose of the girl on the postcard looks significantly broader than the women below,
These photos are only around the turn of the 19th and 20th century.
If the Kabyle were primarily brown skinned and wide nosed writers prior to then would have been noting this. European looking people did not all of the sudden show up in an obscure hard to live in mountainous region of North Africa in the early 1900s. This stuff has to make sense historically, think about it.
How long have they lived in the upper elevations of the Atlas? Was it a long time or did they coem form lowlands but only went to the mountains to escape various foreign invaders? I don't know. So being cold adapted I'm not sure about it. Another option is that no one had lived in the Atlas mountains until 800-1000 BC or more recently. And either no one had ever lived there before that or that if people did it was for a period that stopped in prehistoric times without continuity to the present.
Look at the confusion in the argumentaion going on here. First people are saying the Kabyles were recent and at the same time they are straight haired "blacks" -so them are they recent ??
I can't explain some of these appearance differences in the photos . If we look at these photos we don't know the exact location the people came from or even if it's Algeria or Morocco. Were the people all brown skinned and borad nosed and Europeans all of the sudden popped up within the past 100 years and pretended they were them, a discrinianted against poor minority? Doesn't make sense unless perhaps a significant European component going back as far as the Vandals in the 5th century. Europeans, Truks and Arabs had already established presence in North Africa hundreds of years before that on better quality land
Yeah this is why I think it’s nearly impossible to find out what the original Berber groups looked like. Not just the Kabyle but other groups as well. There’s so many conflicting reports made by ancient and modern historians who described Berbers: some saying they were light-skinned, black, white, mixed.... and often these descriptions could be for the exact same people, just at different time periods or for some inhabiting multiple countries. Same goes for pictures.
Just as you showed, some Kabyles looked black, some white and some in between, so which are the best representatives? Depending on who you ask, or from reading a different study, you’ll get a different response.
Berbers are so heterogenous that there’s no easy or single answer to what they look(ed) like. I believe that Berber groups could all be represented as black African, white African and mixed and all would be authentic. Some may have a larger population of people having one phenotype, but that doesn’t make them the “real” or “original” people, just that their population had the chance to increase faster than others (historical, environmental factors).
Yeah I know I don’t have a good answer, but I just think with the Sahara, Sahel and northern Africa having so many spots for isolated groups to live and stay unchanged phenotypically for centuries (ex. mountains, oases where recent foreign immigrant refugees could seek shelter, giving the appearance that they're the indigenous people), plus wandering populations intermixing since ancient times (some locations more than others, even within a single ethnic group, like Malian and Algerian Tuaregs), plus incoming blacks from the trans-Saharan slave trade, it’s nearly impossible to say which people represent the originals. Too much confusion.
Pure Nonsense.
Is there a part of that you could even try to substantiate?
Hell no, so stop the nonsense.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: It's not spamming. It's my thread, You can't spam your own thread are you crazy? >>>especially if the photos pertain directly to the Kabyle topic.
and these pictures are hard to find pictures of Kabyles and unlike you who posts the same thing 30-40 times, sometimes off topic, examples Harratin in a Kabyle thread, and most of these photos (I said most not all-listen) have never been posted on ES before
Now think about this a woman with a Germanic last name could she possibly have married a German man? I don't know look into it.
Would a name like Grasshoff be as old as the Vandals? My guess is not but I could be wrong, look into it, You can advance ahead to new research, if she was married or born as Grasshoff. Maybe she is only half berber.
I already cast some doubt on her remarks, so I don't know why you are fixated. On the other hand she wrote several books on the berbers, I think some from a feminist angle.
More of this delusional nonsense.
Nowhere did I say the name Grasshoff is as old as the vandals.
I asked for an answer why she carries a German name. I have asked this repeatedly, but this proclaimed "black woman, African American refused to answer for some odd reason.
Now that I have put in information on Vandals and linguistics, all of a sudden, this suppose African American woman quickly responses, with some idiotic rant.
Now, I am being blamed for posting the same picture 40 times over. This of course is another outrageous and hilarious claim, a obvious lie. Since it is the lioness who is the picture spam expert.
Thanks for your guess work, pseudo.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon -aka blingdogg: plus incoming blacks from the trans-Saharan slave trade, it’s nearly impossible to say which people represent the originals. Too much confusion.
And just who and from where, might these slaves be?
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon -aka blingdogg:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: It's hard to tell the complexion, it looks somewhat dark, The nose of the girl on the postcard looks significantly broader than the women below,
These photos are only around the turn of the 19th and 20th century.
If the Kabyle were primarily brown skinned and wide nosed writers prior to then would have been noting this. European looking people did not all of the sudden show up in an obscure hard to live in mountainous region of North Africa in the early 1900s. This stuff has to make sense historically, think about it.
How long have they lived in the upper elevations of the Atlas? Was it a long time or did they coem form lowlands but only went to the mountains to escape various foreign invaders? I don't know. So being cold adapted I'm not sure about it. Another option is that no one had lived in the Atlas mountains until 800-1000 BC or more recently. And either no one had ever lived there before that or that if people did it was for a period that stopped in prehistoric times without continuity to the present.
Look at the confusion in the argumentaion going on here. First people are saying the Kabyles were recent and at the same time they are straight haired "blacks" -so them are they recent ??
I can't explain some of these appearance differences in the photos . If we look at these photos we don't know the exact location the people came from or even if it's Algeria or Morocco. Were the people all brown skinned and borad nosed and Europeans all of the sudden popped up within the past 100 years and pretended they were them, a discrinianted against poor minority? Doesn't make sense unless perhaps a significant European component going back as far as the Vandals in the 5th century. Europeans, Truks and Arabs had already established presence in North Africa hundreds of years before that on better quality land
Yeah this is why I think it’s nearly impossible to find out what the original Berber groups looked like. Not just the Kabyle but other groups as well. There’s so many conflicting reports made by ancient and modern historians who described Berbers: some saying they were light-skinned, black, white, mixed.... and often these descriptions could be for the exact same people, just at different time periods or for some inhabiting multiple countries. Same goes for pictures.
Just as you showed, some Kabyles looked black, some white and some in between, so which are the best representatives? Depending on who you ask, or from reading a different study, you’ll get a different response.
Berbers are so heterogenous that there’s no easy or single answer to what they look(ed) like. I believe that Berber groups could all be represented as black African, white African and mixed and all would be authentic. Some may have a larger population of people having one phenotype, but that doesn’t make them the “real” or “original” people, just that their population had the chance to increase faster than others (historical, environmental factors).
Yeah I know I don’t have a good answer, but I just think with the Sahara, Sahel and northern Africa having so many spots for isolated groups to live and stay unchanged phenotypically for centuries (ex. mountains, oases where recent foreign immigrant refugees could seek shelter, giving the appearance that they're the indigenous people), plus wandering populations intermixing since ancient times (some locations more than others, even within a single ethnic group, like Malian and Algerian Tuaregs), plus incoming blacks from the trans-Saharan slave trade, it’s nearly impossible to say which people represent the originals. Too much confusion.
If you go back one page, you will read anthropological sources which describe the ancient population from the mid-Holocene.
If you had any common sense, you would and could add things up.
Anyway, sources describe them as mixed in crania metrics. But clustering with people from the south, Sahara and Sahel.
Since I am not going to repost it all over again, you'll simply have to click the back button one page.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon -aka blingdogg: plus incoming blacks from the trans-Saharan slave trade, it’s nearly impossible to say which people represent the originals. Too much confusion.
And just who and from where, might these slaves be?
It's getting hilarious gain.
I've posted an abundance of sources explaining the Magreb population from the Holocene mid-Holocene, where it clearly stated that the population related to people from the South. Sahara and Sahel, yet here we have a bigot Dogg typing all this junk.
Then the lioness has the nerve to complain when I repost over.SHM
Posted by Bilal Dogon -aka blingdogg (Member # 21572) on :
I see how it works. I see that lioness has some valid points that not all Kabyles were always black, and acknowledge that, so I automatically have no clue what I'm talking about.
That's the problem with you guys; whenever anyone has a viewpoint and evidence contrary to yours, they're automatically a troll or a white eurocentric.
No Troll Patrol, I'm not going to read through your usual, constant copy and paste spam, I have better things to do.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon -aka blingdogg: I see how it works. I see that lioness has some valid points that not all Kabyles were always black, and acknowledge that, so I automatically have no clue what I'm talking about.
That's the problem with you guys; whenever anyone has a viewpoint and evidence contrary to yours, they're automatically a troll or a white eurocentric.
No Troll Patrol, I'm not going to read through your usual, constant copy and paste spam, I have better things to do.
Where is the evidence, I don't the valid points? I don't see them! All have seen is a few pictures and a hypothetical baseless story.
And no you're not going to read the peer reviewed scholarship I've posted, that's why your head is stuck in your ass. Like the typical dumbass you are, reading pseudo crap. Of unfound and baseless rubbish plus picture spamming. If you had read the sources I've posted in the first place, you would never have made those claims in the posts prior to this one. You lying idiot, I mean dogg.
Good job, dumbo...bling dogg.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: [More of this delusional nonsense.
Nowhere did I say the name Grasshoff is as old as the vandals.
I asked for an answer why she carries a German name. I have asked this repeatedly, but this proclaimed "black woman, African American refused to answer for some odd reason.
Now that I have put in information on Vandals and linguistics, all of a sudden, this suppose African American woman quickly responses, with some idiotic rant.
Now, I am being blamed for posting the same picture 40 times over. This of course is another outrageous and hilarious claim, a obvious lie. Since it is the lioness who is the picture spam expert.
Thanks for your guess work, pseudo. [/QB]
When we take away all the copy and paste we find that you are very thick.
I told you I don't know why she has a German last name. Why don't you go find out?
And I told your dumb ass maybe she is only half berber.
Why don't you come out and say it is impossible for a woman with a last name that is German to be a berber and find out why her last name is Grasshoff instead of asking me who has not researched her name to do the research for you? You think by asking over and over agin I am going to to the research for you?
Then right after asking me about her last name, in the same post you posted about Vandals.
So why would you post that in the same post? As usual you post stuff without saying why you are posting it
tell us thick one
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Yet the topic is Kabyles and none of the articles he posted even mention Kabyles.
As ususal his point is incohearant.
He does not state how the articles pertain to Kabyles.
It's somebody posting "peer reviewed" articles, not connctiong them to the topic, Kabyles, and then thinking because he posted article quotes he has won an argument.
That's his M.O. in a lot of threads
He has other recent posts about Harratins, he as articles quotes in them- none of them even mention Harratins.
Troll Patroll is very weak in debating and hiding behind quotes which he does not know how to connect to a topic
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: [More of this delusional nonsense.
Nowhere did I say the name Grasshoff is as old as the vandals.
I asked for an answer why she carries a German name. I have asked this repeatedly, but this proclaimed "black woman, African American refused to answer for some odd reason.
Now that I have put in information on Vandals and linguistics, all of a sudden, this suppose African American woman quickly responses, with some idiotic rant.
Now, I am being blamed for posting the same picture 40 times over. This of course is another outrageous and hilarious claim, a obvious lie. Since it is the lioness who is the picture spam expert.
Thanks for your guess work, pseudo.
When we take away all the copy and paste we find that you are very thick.
I told you I don't know why she has a German last name. Why don't you go find out?
And I told your dumb asss maybe she is only half berber.
Why don't you come out and say it is impossible for a woman with a last name that is German to be a berber and find out why her last name is Grasshoff instead of asking me who has not researched her name to do the research for you? You think by asking over and over agin I am going to to the research for you?
Then right after asking me about her last name, in the same post you posted about Vandals.
So why would you post that in the same post? As usual you post stuff without saying why you are posting it
tell us thick one [/QB]
You told me after asking you several times. And yet, you don't see the oddity? lol
All I got from you was guess work, as usual. No fact or fundamental solid knowledge.
And no the articles don't mention the Harratins. But they do mention the population, and from where they originally came. Further South, the so called sub Sahara. This was long before the enslaving of the population.
If you had common sense you would have been able to add these things up. Unfortunately for you, you lack this specific thread of logic.
Up till now, all you have done was post pseudo babble and picture spam. Nothing valid, but what new...you have done this same iteration for over 3 years. The same theory in different boxes every time.
I truly wonder what happened to those foreign populations who invaded Algeria, don't you wonder about this? Thus far you've ignored this part of history, as the most likely and possible input of recent foreign people in Algeria, ie Northwest Africa.
Did they just vanish, or did the integrate and assimilate?
quote: I have been working for a long time and published several articles on Roman pottery in Rome, Italy and North Africa. I have a good knowledge of all the classes of pottery that circulated in the Mediterranean from the Republican period to the 7th/8th century AD and beyond.
The period in question from AD 300 to AD 700, spans more that political transitions: it sees the adoption of Christianity (during the Las Imperial period and the Byzantine times), the Vandal rule and the adoption of Arianism and the Arab/Muslim imposition.
quote: "And yet the number of the Vandals and Alans was said in former times, at least, to amount to no more than fifty thousand men. However, after that time by their natural increase among themselves and by associating other barbarians with them they came to be an exceedingly numerous people."
Ancient History Sourcebook: Procopius of Caesarea: Gaiseric & The Vandal Conquest of North Africa, 406 - 477 CE
quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon -aka blingdogg: I see how it works. I see that lioness has some valid points that not all Kabyles were always black, and acknowledge that, so I automatically have no clue what I'm talking about.
That's the problem with you guys; whenever anyone has a viewpoint and evidence contrary to yours, they're automatically a troll or a white eurocentric.
No Troll Patrol, I'm not going to read through your usual, constant copy and paste spam, I have better things to do.
Now you are proving yourself a fool and a liar. Lioness is understood to be a degenerate liar, so naturally she offers no proof of her own, and ignores clear proof offered by others. Clearly you intend to follow in her footsteps. But know this, it is not tolerated from her, and it will not be tolerated from you. If you want to save yourself from insult, do not post lies or your unsubstantiated opinions. Failure to read and acknowledge proofs from others, clearly indicates your closed and immature mind
It seems obvious to me that you came here armed only with the Albino nonsense that you were taught in High School. That silliness is useless here.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
If you had common sense you would have been able to add these things up. Unfortunately for you, you lack this specific thread of logic.
I truly wonder what happened to those foreign populations who invaded Algeria, don't you wonder about this? Thus far you've ignored this part of history, as the most likely and possible input of recent foreign people in Algeria, ie Northwest Africa.
Did they just vanish, or did the integrate and assimilate?
quote: I have been working for a long time and published several articles on Roman pottery in Rome, Italy and North Africa. I have a good knowledge of all the classes of pottery that circulated in the Mediterranean from the Republican period to the 7th/8th century AD and beyond.
The period in question from AD 300 to AD 700, spans more that political transitions: it sees the adoption of Christianity (during the Las Imperial period and the Byzantine times), the Vandal rule and the adoption of Arianism and the Arab/Muslim imposition.
quote: "And yet the number of the Vandals and Alans was said in former times, at least, to amount to no more than fifty thousand men. However, after that time by their natural increase among themselves and by associating other barbarians with them they came to be an exceedingly numerous people."
Ancient History Sourcebook: Procopius of Caesarea: Gaiseric & The Vandal Conquest of North Africa, 406 - 477 CE
How can you ask me "don't you wonder about this? " when I have beens saying all along these foreigners going back to BC had possible input into the Kabyle
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Troll Patrol insults Bilal Dogon -aka blingdogg now.
Troll says he put up the peer reviewed articles.
Yet the topic is Kabyles and none of the articles he posted even mention Kabyles.
As ususal his point is incohearant.
He does not state how the articles pertain to Kabyles.
It's somebody posting "peer reviewed" articles, not connctiong them to the topic, Kabyles, and then thinking because he posted article quotes he has won an argument.
That's his M.O. in a lot of threads
He has other recent posts about Harratins, he as articles quotes in them- none of them even mention Harratins.
Troll Patroll is very weak in debating and hiding behind quotes which he does not know how to connect to a topic
I insult dumbasses indeed. Insignificant dogg.
You clearly are a brain wreck. Keep exposing yourself, impostor.
It even troubles you ancient Africans moved from the Sahara-Sahel into the Magreb. You lying crock. lol
So, here is more on the ancient population from the region, where the Haratin originated from, long ago.
quote: The sandstone escarpment of the Dhar Tichitt in South-Central Mauritania was inhabited by Neolithic agropastoral communities for approximately one and half millennium during the Late Holocene, from ca. 4000 to 2300 BP. The absence of prior evidence of human settlement points to the influx of mobile herders moving away from the “drying” Sahara towards more humid lower latitudes. These herders took advantage of the peculiarities of the local geology and environment and succeeded in domesticating bulrush millet – Pennisetum sp. The emerging agropastoral subsistence complex had conflicting and/or complementary requirements depending on circumstances. In the long run, the social adjustment to the new subsistence complex, shifting site location strategies, nested settlement patterns and the rise of more encompassing polities appear to have been used to cope with climatic hazards in this relatively circumscribed area. An intense arid spell in the middle of the first millennium BC triggered the collapse of the whole Neolithic agropastoral system and the abandonment of the areas. These regions, resettled by sparse oasis-dwellers populations and iron-using communities start
--Augustin F.C. Holl
Museum of Anthropology, The University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109, United States
Coping with uncertainty: Neolithic life in the Dhar Tichitt-Walata, Mauritania, (ca. 4000–2300 BP)
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Troll Patrol insults Bilal Dogon -aka blingdogg now.
Troll says he put up the peer reviewed articles.
Yet the topic is Kabyles and none of the articles he posted even mention Kabyles.
As ususal his point is incohearant.
He does not state how the articles pertain to Kabyles.
It's somebody posting "peer reviewed" articles, not connctiong them to the topic, Kabyles, and then thinking because he posted article quotes he has won an argument.
That's his M.O. in a lot of threads
He has other recent posts about Harratins, he as articles quotes in them- none of them even mention Harratins.
Troll Patroll is very weak in debating and hiding behind quotes which he does not know how to connect to a topic
That’s why I skip his posts because it would take ages to wade through all the irrelevant data to try to figure out what he’s even trying to argue. And that’s if the copy and paste even has anything linked to the topic discussed.
Then if you say one thing about someone not being black, you’re automatically a “typical dumbass”.
While there’s smart members to discuss and learn from on this forum; Troll Patrol isn’t one of them.
One minute he says I’m posting pseudo-science nonsense, then next minute he’s posting the exact same thing I said, in different words:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
"And yet the number of the Vandals and Alans was said in former times, at least, to amount to no more than fifty thousand men. However, after that time by their natural increase among themselves and by associating other barbarians with them they came to be an exceedingly numerous people."
Ancient History Sourcebook: Procopius of Caesarea: Gaiseric & The Vandal Conquest of North Africa, 406 - 477 CE
When I already posted above, before him, in my own words:
quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon -aka blingdogg: Some may have a larger population of people having one phenotype, but that doesn’t make them the “real” or “original” people, just that their population had the chance to increase faster than others (historical, environmental factors).
But of course I don’t know what I’m talking about.
And that part he quoted about the Vandals and Alans “associating other barbarians with them”, of course that doesn’t mean the authors recognized admixture between different groups. So me saying that there are Berbers who are light-skinned or mixed is obviously pseudo-babble as he says.
Looks like all I need to do is copy and paste random stuff for guys like Troll Patrol to comprehend.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon -aka blingdogg:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
"And yet the number of the Vandals and Alans was said in former times, at least, to amount to no more than fifty thousand men. However, after that time by their natural increase among themselves and by associating other barbarians with them they came to be an exceedingly numerous people."
Ancient History Sourcebook: Procopius of Caesarea: Gaiseric & The Vandal Conquest of North Africa, 406 - 477 CE
When I already mentioned above:
Really? So where is it?
quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon -aka blingdogg:
quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon -aka blingdogg: Some may have a larger population of people having one phenotype, but that doesn’t make them the “real” or “original” people, just that their population had the chance to increase faster than others (historical, environmental factors).
But of course I don’t know what I’m talking about.
And that part he quoted about the Vandals and Alans “associating other barbarians with them”, of course that doesn’t mean the authors recognized admixture between different groups. So me saying that there are Berbers who are light-skinned or mixed is obviously pseudo-babble as he says.
Looks like all I need to do is copy and paste random stuff for guys like Troll Patrol to comprehend.
Indeed, as expected, more notorious crap.
Where did I write on skin complexion? Show me?
I spoke and speak of crania and post-crania. Do you understand? No, you don't since you don't read the peer reviewed anthropological scholarship I have posted. These studies say that the ancient Magreb population clustered and clusters with people from the South, the Sahara-Sahel.
And this is the exact reason why I call you a dumb dogg.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon -aka blingdogg:
While there’s smart members to discuss and learn from on this forum; Troll Patrol isn’t one of them.
One minute he says I’m posting pseudo-science nonsense, then next minute he’s posting the exact same thing I said, in different words:
Troll Patrol is so emotion based, that he will even post some stuff that agrees with what you say and act like he's taking a different position. Mike's the same way. And often you can use reverse psychology on him. Say a banana is a friut he will them argue it's a vegetable. They are in constant confrontation mode like abused dogs
Then they throwing in all the insults, which is the troll method of trying to get people into emotion mode.
And very little Troll has contributed to the topic Kabyle specifically
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon -aka blingdogg:
While there’s smart members to discuss and learn from on this forum; Troll Patrol isn’t one of them.
One minute he says I’m posting pseudo-science nonsense, then next minute he’s posting the exact same thing I said, in different words:
Troll Patrol is so emotion based, that he will post stuff that agrees with what you say and act like he's taking a differnt position. Mike's the same way. And often you can use reverse psychology on him. Say a banana is a friut he will them argue it's a vegetable. They are in constant confrortation like abused dogs
Then they throwing in all the insults, which is the troll method of trying to get people into emotion mode.
I am motioned based posting peer reviewed anthropological scholarship, which has whipped your ass hard.
All that is left for you is picture spamming and nonsense ranting.
No more no less.
It's funny how you are in your high horse when it's even mentioned that Africans moved into Europe. You start to defend it with tooth and nail, picture spamming Clown!
Your so called reverse psychology is insignificant.
Psychoanalysis has shown that you are a liar. An impostor a crook. You have no fundamental argument, so all you can do now is post rubbish.
Posted by Bilal Dogon -aka blingdogg (Member # 21572) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Now you are proving yourself a fool and a liar. Lioness is understood to be a degenerate liar, so naturally she offers no proof of her own, and ignores clear proof offered by others. Clearly you intend to follow in her footsteps. But know this, it is not tolerated from her, and it will not be tolerated from you. If you want to save yourself from insult, do not post lies or your unsubstantiated opinions. Failure to read and acknowledge proofs from others, clearly indicates your closed and immature mind
It seems obvious to me that you came here armed only with the Albino nonsense that you were taught in High School. That silliness is useless here.
Anyone using terms like “albinos” and arguing so passionately that there’s some kind of mass conspiracy to cover up the fact that black popes and kings ruled Renaissance Europe is not worth my time.
EDIT: I have a large library of African history books and read all the time, the difference is I’m not into the fairy tales.
I don't care what you think of lioness, I judge people by what they post, and she's not trolling all the time like you say. She brings up good points that some people don't like to hear.
I noticed a lot of members here just blindly attack someone if they say something they don't like, and it's been done to me, lioness and others. No I don't agree all the time with what she says but I sure as hell take anything she posts over you.
You’re a joke, and the reason why it’s so hard for African history to be accepted by the mainstream.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Troll Patrol, please sum up for us in a few sentences who the Kabyle are. Not North Africa in general, who the Kabyle are specifically
Use your own words not hiding behind quotes
^^^watch him choke now
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Troll Patrol, please sum up for us in a few sentences who the Kabyle are. Not North Africa in general, who the Kabyle are specifically
Use your own words not hiding behind quotes
^^^watch him choke now
The Kabyle are a sub-Tamazight ethnic group. Located at Northwest Africa. There are many sub-ethnic Tamazight groups.
Proto Tamazight people came from further South, the Sahara-Sahel. As studies show.
The Berber language originated at Central Sahara, and the proto berber language is known as Lybico-Berber.
I already posted this several times. Act as if it's not true.
It is such a joke to call my posts; choking and hiding behind quotes. While I post peer reviewed scholarship versus your wiki sources, blogs and other nonsense sources. Clown!
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon -aka blingdogg:
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Now you are proving yourself a fool and a liar. Lioness is understood to be a degenerate liar, so naturally she offers no proof of her own, and ignores clear proof offered by others. Clearly you intend to follow in her footsteps. But know this, it is not tolerated from her, and it will not be tolerated from you. If you want to save yourself from insult, do not post lies or your unsubstantiated opinions. Failure to read and acknowledge proofs from others, clearly indicates your closed and immature mind
It seems obvious to me that you came here armed only with the Albino nonsense that you were taught in High School. That silliness is useless here.
Anyone using terms like “albinos” and arguing so passionately that there’s some kind of mass conspiracy to cover up the fact that black popes and kings ruled Renaissance Europe is not worth my time.
I have a large library of African history books and read all the time, the difference is I’m not into the fairy tales.
You’re a joke, and the reason why it’s so hard for African history to be accepted by the mainstream.
One of Mike's tactics is to call people liars and not be speciifc. It's name calling, not argumenation on a specific point. He conceals his own uncertainties this way It is an attempt to get somebody into a dumber emotion based mind state bouncing with him in his rubber room fantasy land, paranoid delusions
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon -aka blingdogg:
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Now you are proving yourself a fool and a liar. Lioness is understood to be a degenerate liar, so naturally she offers no proof of her own, and ignores clear proof offered by others. Clearly you intend to follow in her footsteps. But know this, it is not tolerated from her, and it will not be tolerated from you. If you want to save yourself from insult, do not post lies or your unsubstantiated opinions. Failure to read and acknowledge proofs from others, clearly indicates your closed and immature mind
It seems obvious to me that you came here armed only with the Albino nonsense that you were taught in High School. That silliness is useless here.
Anyone using terms like “albinos” and arguing so passionately that there’s some kind of mass conspiracy to cover up the fact that black popes and kings ruled Renaissance Europe is not worth my time.
I have a large library of African history books and read all the time, the difference is I’m not into the fairy tales.
You’re a joke, and the reason why it’s so hard for African history to be accepted by the mainstream.
One of Mike's tactics is to call people liars and not be speciifc. It's name calling, not argumenation on a specific point. He conceals his own uncertainties this way It is an attempt to get somebody into a dumber emotion based mind state bouncing with him in his rubber room fantasy land, paranoid delusions
Actually all of this can be ascribed to you.
All we need to do is look at this forum...animalistic clown!
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: The Kabyle are a sub-Tamazight ethnic group. Located at Northwest Africa. There are many sub-ethnic Tamazight groups.
I have never heard the term "sub-Tamazight" used.
what does the word sub mean in this context? Are the Tuareg, Mozabites, Siwa, Tamazight or sub-Tamazight ?
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon -aka blingdogg:
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Now you are proving yourself a fool and a liar. Lioness is understood to be a degenerate liar, so naturally she offers no proof of her own, and ignores clear proof offered by others. Clearly you intend to follow in her footsteps. But know this, it is not tolerated from her, and it will not be tolerated from you. If you want to save yourself from insult, do not post lies or your unsubstantiated opinions. Failure to read and acknowledge proofs from others, clearly indicates your closed and immature mind
It seems obvious to me that you came here armed only with the Albino nonsense that you were taught in High School. That silliness is useless here.
Anyone using terms like “albinos” and arguing so passionately that there’s some kind of mass conspiracy to cover up the fact that black popes and kings ruled Renaissance Europe is not worth my time.
EDIT: I have a large library of African history books and read all the time, the difference is I’m not into the fairy tales.
I don't care what you think of lioness, I judge people by what they post, and she's not trolling all the time like you say. She brings up good points that some people don't like to hear.
I noticed a lot of members here just blindly attack someone if they say something they don't like, and it's been done to me, lioness and others. No I don't agree all the time with what she says but I sure as hell take anything she posts over you.
You’re a joke, and the reason why it’s so hard for African history to be accepted by the mainstream.
Dogg, can you name a few of the books?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: Dogg, can you name a few of the books? [/QB]
try asking Mike how many books he has on Africana studies, lol
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: The Kabyle are a sub-Tamazight ethnic group. Located at Northwest Africa. There are many sub-ethnic Tamazight groups.
I have never heard the term "sub-Tamazight" used.
what does the word sub mean in this context? Are the Tuareg, Mozabites, Siwa, Tamazight or sub-Tamazight ?
Good Lord, this is amazing!
You asked me to explain the Kabyle. I explained that they are a sub-Tamazight ethnic group, one amongst many.
Sub means that there are more than one groups related to a common demeanor.
I then explained that the Tamazight originated at the South, Sahara-Sahel.
Please don't ask me to show evidence, since I already did on page ago. I on purpose did not put on my own writing but cited recent anthropological sources.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: Dogg, can you name a few of the books?
try asking Mike how many books he has on Africana studies, lol [/QB]
I am asking the dogg, why do you bother with the dogg?
Why trying to derail again?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: The Kabyle are a sub-Tamazight ethnic group. Located at Northwest Africa. There are many sub-ethnic Tamazight groups.
I have never heard the term "sub-Tamazight" used.
what does the word sub mean in this context? Are the Tuareg, Mozabites, Siwa, Tamazight or sub-Tamazight ?
Good Lord, this is amazing!
You asked me to explain the Kabyle. I explained that they are a sub-Tamazight ethnic group, one amongst many.
Sub means that there are more than one groups related to a common demeanor.
I then explained that the Tamazight originated at the South, Sahara-Sahel.
Please don't ask me to show evidence, since I already did on page ago. I on purpose did not put on my own writing but cited recent anthropological sources.
It's not amazing, you used a term that nobody else uses
1) Are the Asni, Tuareg, Mozabites, Siwa, Jerba are they sub-Tamazight ?
2) You are also saying berbers originated in the Sahel. Does this mean that people living in the Maghreb don't go back that far?
3) Why is it that E3 M81 is much more frequent in the Maghreb than it is in the Sahel?
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: The Kabyle are a sub-Tamazight ethnic group. Located at Northwest Africa. There are many sub-ethnic Tamazight groups.
I have never heard the term "sub-Tamazight" used.
what does the word sub mean in this context? Are the Tuareg, Mozabites, Siwa, Tamazight or sub-Tamazight ?
Good Lord, this is amazing!
I described a situation a people. That's what I did.
You asked me to explain the Kabyle. I explained that they are a sub-Tamazight ethnic group, one amongst many.
Sub means that there are more than one groups related to a common demeanor.
I then explained that the Tamazight originated at the South, Sahara-Sahel.
Please don't ask me to show evidence, since I already did on page ago. I on purpose did not put on my own writing but cited recent anthropological sources.
It's not amazing, you used a term that nobody else uses
1) Are the Asni, Tuareg, Mozabites, Siwa, Jerba are they sub-Tamazight ?
2) You are also saying berbers originated in the Sahel. Does this mean that people living in the Maghreb don't go back that far?
3) Why is it that E3 M81 is much more frequent in the Maghreb than it is in the Sahel?
More nonsense, "you used a term nobody else uses?
E3 M81 is more frequent in the Magreb because it's a mutation from a much older Haplotype M81 is recent.
Ironically Mauritanians and West Saharans carry this Hg in the most highest frequency.
Berbers / Tamazight go back thousands of years. But the tribal formation as it is now is likely recent.
As a people they, the ancient Maghrebians relate to those who came from the Sahara-Sahel. Please don't ask me to show and proof. As it was already done.
And yes, the Asni, Tuareg, Mozabites, Siwa, Jerba are sub-Tamazight ethnic groups.
My guess, "based on science" is that the Tuareg are the oldest among the Tamazight.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
E3 M81 is more frequent in the Magreb because it's a mutation from a much older Haplotype M81 is recent.
Ironically Mauritanians and West Saharans carry this Hg in the most highest frequency.
name the hg that Mauritanians and West Saharans carry
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
E3 M81 is more frequent in the Magreb because it's a mutation from a much older Haplotype M81 is recent.
Ironically Mauritanians and West Saharans carry this Hg in the most highest frequency.
name the hg that Mauritanians and West Saharans carry
West Saharans in general. And indigenous Mauritanians in general carry E-M81 in the highest frequency.
You asked me this, I answered you. Now you derail the topic again. Why? When we were speaking of E-M81, remember?
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
If you had common sense you would have been able to add these things up. Unfortunately for you, you lack this specific thread of logic.
I truly wonder what happened to those foreign populations who invaded Algeria, don't you wonder about this? Thus far you've ignored this part of history, as the most likely and possible input of recent foreign people in Algeria, ie Northwest Africa.
Did they just vanish, or did the integrate and assimilate?
quote: I have been working for a long time and published several articles on Roman pottery in Rome, Italy and North Africa. I have a good knowledge of all the classes of pottery that circulated in the Mediterranean from the Republican period to the 7th/8th century AD and beyond.
The period in question from AD 300 to AD 700, spans more that political transitions: it sees the adoption of Christianity (during the Las Imperial period and the Byzantine times), the Vandal rule and the adoption of Arianism and the Arab/Muslim imposition.
quote: "And yet the number of the Vandals and Alans was said in former times, at least, to amount to no more than fifty thousand men. However, after that time by their natural increase among themselves and by associating other barbarians with them they came to be an exceedingly numerous people."
Ancient History Sourcebook: Procopius of Caesarea: Gaiseric & The Vandal Conquest of North Africa, 406 - 477 CE
How can you ask me "don't you wonder about this? " when I have beens saying all along these foreigners going back to BC had possible input into the Kabyle [/QB]
You see pompon bling dogg. This conversation is over. Your guru told that foreigners, immigrants from Europe moved into Algeria and settled there. This of course was after the people from the South got there first thousand upon thousands of years before! Most of the people from the South who moved up North were then pushed back, again into the Southern part. During this process some where even enslaved.
Logic tells they, these immigrant who settled there at the Magreb assimilated and or integrated. They then became part of the Arab settlement during the spread of Islam, during the Arab conquest. Where else did you think they went, I mean Arabs didn't go anywhere. They stayed as well.
That's history for ya' in a nutshell!
quote:But black skin, as an overt signifier of otherness and segregation, receives stronger notice in societies, such as late classical Africa, where black peoples were not just exotic exceptions to Mediterranean complexions, but integrated contributors, marginal allies, or barbarian rivals to Romanized culture. Anti-black racism appears in poems of Vandal-era Africa from the Codex Salmasianus of the Anthologia Latina.
Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel Luísa Pereira1,2 2010
Abstract The Tuareg presently live in the Sahara and the Sahel. Their ancestors are commonly believed to be the Garamantes of the Libyan Fezzan, ever since it was suggested by authors of antiquity. Biological evidence, based on classical genetic markers, however, indicates kinship with the Beja of Eastern Sudan. Our study of mtDNA sequences and Y-chromosome SNPs of three different southern Tuareg groups from Mali, Burkina Faso and the Republic of Niger reveals a West Eurasian-North African composition of their gene pool. The data shows that certain genetic lineages could not have been introduced into this population earlier than approximately 9,000 years ago while local expansions establish a minimal date at around 3,000 years ago.Some of the mtDNA haplogroups observed in the Tuareg population played an important role in the post- Last Glacial Maximum human expansion from Iberian refugia towards both Europe and North Africa. Interestingly, no Near Eastern mtDNA lineages connected with the Neolithic expansion have been observed in our population sample. On the other hand, the Y-chromosome SNPs data shows that the paternal lineages can very probably be traced to the Near Eastern Neolithic demic expansion towards North Africa, a period which is otherwise concordant with the above-mentioned mtDNA expansion. The time frame for the migration of the Tuareg towards the African Sahel belt overlaps that of Early Holocene climatic changes across the Sahara (from the optimal greening ~10,000 YBP to the extant aridity beginning at ~6,000 YBP) and the migrations of other African nomadic peoples in the area.
The Tuareg call themselves Kel Tamasheq (people of the Tamasheq language) or Imashaghen (free people). The Tamasheq tongue is a Berber language belonging to the Afro-Asiatic phylum. The Tuareg maintain a nomadic and/or semi-nomadic lifestyle in the Central Sahara and adjacent regions of the African Sahel, where they number about 1,262,000 in total. Their contemporary geographic distribution is shown in the upper map in Figure 1. The 5th century BC Greek historian Herodotus suggested that the ancestral homeland of the ancient Tuareg (i.e. Garamantes) was the Libyan Fezzan.1 It has been suggested that subsequent to the camel being adopted for Saharan trade in the 1st or 2nd century AD, the area of Tuareg influence expanded further to the south. Oral accounts and sparse written records in Tifinagh (the script of the Tamasheq language) date back to 14th century AD when the first caravan traders were documented in the Air Mountains. Hereafter, it seems that from the 17th century onward the increasingly frequent invasions of North Africa by various Arabic tribes drove the Tuareg yet further southward to the African Sahel. Since the beginning of European explorations of the Sahara and the Sahel, the Tuareg have been known mainly as caravan traders linking the sub-Saharan and Mediterranean cultures. Their contact with the various sub-Saharan peoples was not always peaceful, however, and they were known to take war captives. Centuries of mutual contact led to substantial assimilation of others into the Tuareg population.
In fact, it has been observed that in typical North African populations there is a gradient of increasing frequency of West Eurasian lineages ranging from around 50% to 75% in the northernmost locations33. The Tuareg’s neighbours however, have a markedly smaller proportion of West Eurasian haplotypes (22% in Western Chad Arabs, 8% in Shuwa peer-00518310, version 1 - 17 Sep 2010
The West Eurasian component observed in the Tuareg is highly interesting. A major proportion (94%) could be allocated to haplogroups H1, H3 and V, West Eurasian lineages of Iberian origin that spread to Europe 7,10,17,25,28,35 and most probably North Africa29,30 with the improvement of the climatic conditions after the retreat of the ice sheets 15,000 – 13,000 years ago. The interpolation maps of these lineages across North Africa and Europe (Supplementary Material SM5) clearly place the Tuareg population in the path of the southern African edge of post-Last Glacial Maximum expansions. The H1 haplogroup (SM5A and SM5B, with and without the outlier Norway, respectively) is as frequent in our southern Tuareg groups as in Libya and the centre of the dispersion within the Iberian Peninsula. The H3 haplogroup is almost vestigial in Tuareg (SM5C), having the highest observed frequencies outside of Iberia in Algeria and Tunisia. Again for haplogroup V, Tuareg present frequencies as high as in the Basque country (SM5D).
The sub-Saharan mtDNA pool of the Tuareg is composed of various lineages from the major L-type haplogroups including: 2.3% of L0; 14.0% of L1; 58.1% of L2; 23.3% L3; and 2.3% of L4. We assayed to search for haplotype matches in an extensive database of 7,211 individuals from all over Africa (Table 2). The most ancient lineages L0a1a and L1c, characteristic of east/southeast Africa13 and the Pygmies38, respectively, were each observed in only one individual. The highly frequent African haplogroup L2, and specifically its dominant clade L2a is also dominant in Tuareg – it is probable that some branches of L2a were involved in the Bantu expansion towards the African south13,39 and many matches are observed for these haplotypes all over the continent. Curiously, the two L2a lineages having substitutions at positions 16192 and 16193, respectively, have no match in Africa. As far as the L3 macrohaplogroup is concerned, the two L3b haplotypes observed in the Tuareg are widespread throughout the continent, but one of the L3f1 haplotypes (T47 in Table 1) has no matches.
In summary, the matches between Tuareg sub-Saharan haplotypes and the diverse African regions were, after correcting for the size for each region: 5.6% with Africa- Central; 4.3% with Africa-East; 3.4% with Africa-North; 1.1% with Africa-South; 4.3% with Africa-southeast; 4.5% with Africa-southwest; 12.7% with Africa-West; and 13.4% with Africa-westcentral.
The overall West Eurasian mtDNA gene pool in the Tuareg population as a whole (H1, H3 and V) seems to favour a rather a North African heritage.48 The only exception is the absence of the otherwise rare U5b that might have rather come to Africa via the Near East, and then drifted to higher frequencies only in some isolated populations such as in the Egyptian oasis Siwa.49 The absence of U6 can further be explained by genetic drift during the expansion of this haplogroup within North Africa.49 Note that U6 was observed at low frequencies in several population groups from the Chad Basin, such as in the Nilo-Saharan Kanuri and the Afro-Asiatic Masa.34
However, according to historical reports, the origin of the Beja is more likely to be traceable to the Arabian Peninsula50 And the West Eurasian mtDNA lineages seen in the Tuareg have a rather Iberian affiliation in the post-LGM, and probably expanded to North Africa first.29,30 The weak Eastern African influence in Tuareg is further supported by the M1 haplotypes belonging to the lineages characteristic of the later Mediterranean expansion (M1b and M1a2a) and the presence of very few matches for sub-Saharan L haplotypes with East Africa. The main post- LGM Eurasian and M1a2a lineages found in the Tuareg favour North African origin with migration to its southern location in the Sahel between ~9,000 and ~3,000 years ago.
The dates obtained from the genetic data coincide well with climatic changes in the Sahara, which resulted in repopulation during the first half of the Holocene when by ~10,000 YBP (the Holocene Climatic Optimum) humid conditions and greening were established. The climatic optimum lasted until ~6,000 YBP, when the shift towards more permanent aridity occurred, culminating with the formation of the current Sahara Desert. This desertification could have entrapped Tuareg populations coming from North Africa to the Sahel belt together with other pastoralists such as the Chadic speaking peoples40 coming from East Africa and Fulani nomads6 coming from West Africa. In fact, by performing complete mtDNA sequencing of the L3f3 lineage, specific for Chadic-speaking groups of the Chad Basin, Černý et al.40 estimated a local demographic expansion during the Holocene period at about 8,000 ± 2,500 YBP. No doubt all populations arriving to the Sahel were further enriched by various admixtures of many other sub-Saharan lineages, an effect even more pronounced in the Chadic groups who adopted a sedentary lifestyle soon after their arrival to the fertile Chad Basin than in the Tuareg who remain nomadic until present. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: Tracing the Language of the Vandalsmore by Nicoletta Onesti
I know you are about to insult now but before you do tell us why you posted that, what you intended to prove by posting that
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
^We already have discussed this paper, in fact a few times already.
It's becoming boring to repeat the same thing over and over.
All it does is debunk your theory.
I have asked you for anthropological and archeological evidence. I have asked you this 3 years in a row. And up this now you haven't shown anything.
In fact the opposite happened, I have shown that the ancient Magrebian population came from the South.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: Tracing the Language of the Vandalsmore by Nicoletta Onesti
I know you are about to insult now but before you do tell us why you posted that, what you intended to prove by posting that [/QB]
I posted it, because the Vandals play an important role in the demographic shift of the ancient indigenous population. It's interesting to find out who these brutes were.
quote:Most studies of European genetic diversity have focused on large-scale variation and interpretations based on events in prehistory, but migrations and invasions in historical times could also have had profound effects on the genetic landscape.The geographical distribution of North African ancestry in the peninsula does not reflect the initial colonization and subsequent withdrawal and is likely to result from later enforced population movement—more marked in some regions than in others—plus the effects of genetic drift.
quote: The established population of the Iberian Peninsula prior to 711 CE has been estimated at 7–8 million people, ruled by about 200,000 Germanic Visigoths,19 who had entered from the north in the sixth century. Though the initial invading North African force was between 10,000 and 15,000 strong, the scale of subsequent migration and settlement is uncertain, with some claiming numbers in the hundreds of thousands. 20 Islamization of the populace after the invasion was certainly rapid, but it has been argued that this reflects an exponential social process of religious conversion rather than a substantial immigration;21 a sizeable proportion of the indigenous population (the so-called Mozarabs) was allowed to retain its Christian practices, as a result of the religious tolerance of the Muslim rulers.22 There is also doubt about the extent of intermarriage between indigenous people and settlers in the early phase.20 After the overthrow of Islamic rule in most of the peninsula, a period of tolerant coexistence (convivencia) ensued in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, but after 1492 (1496 in Portugal), religious intolerance forced Spanish Muslims to either convert to Christianity (as so-called moriscos) or leave.23 After the fifteenth century, moriscos were relocated across Spain on occasion, and, finally, during 1609–1616, over 200,000 were expelled, mostly from Valencia.
--Susan M. Adams
The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
I have asked you for anthropological and archeological evidence. I have asked you this 3 years in a row. And up this now you haven't shown anything.
In fact the opposite happened, I have shown that the ancient Magrebian population came from the South.
wake up I just gave you a peer reviewed article saying otherwise
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:The coding regions transitions are likely to change relatively slower than those of hypervariable segments, and hence, likely to remain intact within a clade. To assist in determining which clade to place a monophyletic unit, key coding region transitions have to be identified. In the case of M1, we were told:
We found 489C (Table 3) in all Indian and eastern-African haplogroup M mtDNAs analysed, but not in the non-M haplogroup controls, including 20 Africans representing all African main lineages (6 L1, 4 L2, 10 L3) and 11 Asians.
These findings, and the lack of positive evidence (given the RFLP status) that the 10400 C->T transition defining M has happened more than once, suggest that it has a single common origin, but do not resolve its geographic origin. Analysis of position 10873 (the MnlI RFLP) revealed that all the M molecules (eastern African, Asian and those sporadically found in our population surveys) were 10873C (Table 3). As for the non-M mtDNAs, the ancient L1 and the L2 African-specific lineages5, as well as most L3 African mtDNAs, also carry 10873C.
Conversely, all non-M mtDNAs of non-African origin analysed so far carry 10873T. These data indicate that the **transition 10400 C-->T, which defines haplogroup M**, arose on an African background characterized by the ancestral state 10873C, which is also present in four primate (common and pygmy chimps, gorilla and orangutan) mtDNA sequences.
-- Semino et al.
quote:"These indicate that the root of L3 gives rise to a multifurcation from a single haplotype producing a number of distinct subclades... The simplest explanation for this geographical distribution [haplogroups M and N], however, is an expansion of the root type within East Africa, where several independent L3 branches thrive, including a sister group to L3, christened L4 (Kivisild et al. 2004; Chap. 7), followed by divergence into haplogroups M and N somewhere between the Horn of Africa and the Indian subcontinent. Since neither the L3 root type nor any other descendants survive outside Africa, the root type itself must have become extinct during a period of genetic drift in the founder population as it diversified into haplogroups M and N, if the diversification was outside Africa. If on the other hand the diversification was indeed within East Africa, then Haplogroups M and N must have either been carried out of Africa in their entirety or subsequently have become extinct within Africa, with the singular exception of the derived M1."
--Hans-Jürgen Bandelt et. 2006. EDS. Human Mitochondrial DNA and the Evolution of Homo sapiens.
quote:Although Haplogroup M differentiated soon after the out of Africa exit and it is widely distributed in Asia (east Asia and India) and Oceania, there is an interesting exception for one of its more than 40 sub-clades: M1.. Indeed this lineage is mainly limited to the African continent with peaks in the Horn of Africa."
--Paola Spinozzi, Alessandro Zironi . (2010). Origins as a Paradigm in the Sciences and in the Humanities. Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht. pp. 48-50
quote:“..the M1 presence in the Arabian peninsula signals a predominant East African influence since the Neolithic onwards.“
-- Petraglia, M and Rose, J (2010). The Evolution of Human Populations in Arabia:
quote:Macrohaplogroup M (489-10400-14783-15043), excluding M1 which is east African, is distributed among most south, east and north Asians, Amerindians (containing a minority of north and central Amerindians and a majority of south Amerindians), and many central Asians and Melanesians.
--SUVENDU MAJI, S. KRITHIKA and T. S. VASULU (2009)
Phylogeographic distribution of mitochondrial DNA macrohaplogroup M in India
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: Tracing the Language of the Vandalsmore by Nicoletta Onesti
I know you are about to insult now but before you do tell us why you posted that, what you intended to prove by posting that
I posted it, because the Vandals play an important role in the demographic shift if the ancient indigenous population.
so if I agree with this why is it debunking anything I said if it is agreeing with what I said? So no debunking went on
also you are now posting Semino and others because you can't deal with Pereira who studied the Tuareg specifically
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: ^We already have discussed this paper, in fact a few times already.
It's becoming boring to repeat the same thing over and over.
All it does is debunk your theory.
Explain what this article debunks, how it debunks something make it clear, don't expect people to read your mind>
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: Tracing the Language of the Vandalsmore by Nicoletta Onesti
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
I have asked you for anthropological and archeological evidence. I have asked you this 3 years in a row. And up this now you haven't shown anything.
In fact the opposite happened, I have shown that the ancient Magrebian population came from the South.
wake up I just gave you a peer reviewed article saying otherwise [/QB]
Really, so where is the archeological and anthropological evidence? Because I didn't see it?
Posted by HidayaAkade (Member # 20642) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon -aka blingdogg: I see how it works. I see that lioness has some valid points that not all Kabyles were always black, and acknowledge that, so I automatically have no clue what I'm talking about.
That's the problem with you guys; whenever anyone has a viewpoint and evidence contrary to yours, they're automatically a troll or a white eurocentric.
No Troll Patrol, I'm not going to read through your usual, constant copy and paste spam, I have better things to do.
Uhh... I'm a newbie on here and lioness is a troll. It's not a debate. Most people on here are not against a debate, but if you do post you gotta be able to back it up. This thread is basically a erroneous extension of the "North Africans were never African" spiel. That lie is old and its tired.
If you feel lioness is making some valid points, you should expound on it and put forth info. Second, you dismiss Troll Patrol's posts but is he lying? Does he have sound info?
Simply listening to one side of the debate is not going to help.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: Tracing the Language of the Vandalsmore by Nicoletta Onesti
I know you are about to insult now but before you do tell us why you posted that, what you intended to prove by posting that
I posted it, because the Vandals play an important role in the demographic shift if the ancient indigenous population.
so if I agree with this why is it debunking anything I said if it is agreeing with what I said?
Because, as I said before, it shifted the population.
The original population, the population from the South settled there first, in the Magreb, long before any Vandal came into the region.
We can do this all day. But at the end of the day, the fact remains. I have posted peer reviewed Anthropology saying and showing that the ancient population from the Magreb clusters with people from the South, Sahara-Sahel. No matter how you spin it, twist it turn it. It remains the same. And I do have more. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: Because, as I said before, it shifted the population.
The original population, the population from the South settled there first, in the Magreb, long before any Vandal came into the region. [/QB]
Iberomaurusian green, Capsian blue
as we can see, of the North not the South, and archaeological evidence supporting that
Posted by Bilal Dogon (Member # 21572) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: Really? So where is it?
See this is your problem. You’re unable to comprehend what’s laid out in front of your eyes, then when you miss it or misunderstand, you throw out ad hominems and insults. Read my posts again. What you’re asking about is mentioned in my initial post you quoted, then in my reply to you, then a Third time in this last post you quoted.
For the fourth time:
quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon -aka blingdogg: Some may have a larger population of people having one phenotype, but that doesn’t make them the “real” or “original” people, just that their population had the chance to increase faster than others (historical, environmental factors).
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
"And yet the number of the Vandals and Alans was said in former times, at least, to amount to no more than fifty thousand men. However, after that time by their natural increase among themselves and by associating other barbarians with them they came to be an exceedingly numerous people."
Ancient History Sourcebook: Procopius of Caesarea: Gaiseric & The Vandal Conquest of North Africa, 406 - 477 CE
Yet when I made my post (which wasn’t even to you) you started personally insulting me when I’ve done nothing but respect you on this forum. And who cares about my username, it has nothing to do with anything. But since you’re so obsessively fixated on it, it’s gone.
And what does it matter to you what books I own? Anyways:
Cambridge History of Africa vol.1-5 UNESCO General History of Africa vol.1-7 Kingdoms of the Yoruba The history of the Yorubas - from the earliest times to the beginning of the British Protectorate Kingdoms of the Sudan The Darfur Sultanate: A history Ancient Ghana and Mali The History of African Cities South of the Sahara Warrior Women-The Amazons of Dahomey Africa and Africans in the Making of the Atlantic World, 1400-1680 The History of Northern Africa Warfare in the Sokoto Caliphate The Ethiopians: A History Ancient Egypt: Anatomy of a Civilization The Rise and Fall of Ancient Egypt The Swahili- Reconstructing the History and Language of an African Society, 800-1500 Ancient Egypt in Africa Warfare and Diplomacy in Precolonial West Africa Africa and Africans in Antiquity The African Diaspora in the Indian Ocean Africa’s Discovery of Europe: 1450-1850 The African Origin of Civilization: Myth or Reality Asante In The Nineteenth Century: The Structure and Evolution of a Political Order Medieval Kingdoms of Nubia: Pagans, Christians and Muslims in the Middle Nile African Elites in India
Need I go on?......
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by HidayaAkade:
This thread is basically a erroneous extension of the "North Africans were never African" spiel. That lie is old and its tired.
Troll Patrol is saying there were no Noth Africans, people went into from the South
but the topic is Kabyle, not green period hunter gatherers even though I have been following him into his side track that is not dealing with the dry period of the thread topic
so stop cheerleading and sighing and contributing no content
The topic is Kayble and has not been covered that much on ES-it is not a topic on North Africans general
thanks, lioness
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: Really? So where is it?
See this is your problem. You’re unable to comprehend what’s laid out in front of your eyes, then when you miss it or misunderstand, you throw out ad hominems and insults. Read my posts again. What you’re asking about is mentioned in my initial post you quoted, then in my reply to you, then a Third time in this last post you quoted.
For the fourth time:
quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon -aka blingdogg: Some may have a larger population of people having one phenotype, but that doesn’t make them the “real” or “original” people, just that their population had the chance to increase faster than others (historical, environmental factors).
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
"And yet the number of the Vandals and Alans was said in former times, at least, to amount to no more than fifty thousand men. However, after that time by their natural increase among themselves and by associating other barbarians with them they came to be an exceedingly numerous people."
Ancient History Sourcebook: Procopius of Caesarea: Gaiseric & The Vandal Conquest of North Africa, 406 - 477 CE
......
Pathetic, so I am going to ask you again. Where is it. Where did you write it?
You keep saying that one is not original this that blah blah....it's just your very one opinion, we are speaking of where did the population origins lie in the first place of those who entered the Magreb during the Holocene mid-Holocene. You are speaking of a classic time period.
I will repeat it once more for you, in the South. The Sahara-Sahel, is where the Tamazight originated. Proto-Berber originated in central-Sahara. I posted this by showing actual data on anthropological sites.
And is known as Lybico-Berber. This was long before any Vandal or whom ever invaded, assimilated or integrated.
This is the problem, you can't grasp, comprehend and accept.
Even when it's right in front of your eyes you can't see it, hmmm you don't read it. You brush it off as spam. Yet, your personal opinion should matter.
GTFOH
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by HidayaAkade:
This thread is basically a erroneous extension of the "North Africans were never African" spiel. That lie is old and its tired.
Troll Patrol is saying there were no Noth Africans, people went into from the South
but the topic is Kabyle, not green period hunter gatherers even though I have been following him into his side track that is not dealing with the dry period of the thread topic
so stop cheerleading and sighing and contributing no content
The topic is Kayble and has not been covered that much on ES-it is not a topic on North Africans general
thanks, lioness
No, what he is saying is that you try to falsely history, and make it into that Africans never entered Northern Africa, this of course as I say again is a lie.
And again, the ancient population from the Magreb came from the South, from the Sahara-Sahel. These people became the first settlers of Northwest Africa. Northeast is a different story. Thou there is a common denominator eventually which can be traced back to the similar root. Yes, also from the South.
This too was posted several times.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
And is known as Lybico-Berber. This was long before any Vandal or whom ever invaded, assimilated or integrated.
you realize that Lybia is on the North of the continent ?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
This too was posted several times.
Iberomaurusian green, Capsian blue
as we can see, of the North not the South, and archaeological evidence supporting that
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
And is known as Lybico-Berber. This was long before any Vandal or whom ever invaded, assimilated or integrated.
you realize that Lybia is on the North of the continent ?
You do realize that Lybico-Berber. Is rooted at central Sahara? Not the Southern part nor the Northern part of the Sahara, but in the middle. Central!
quote:The Garamantes flourished in southwestern Libya, in the core of the Sahara Desert ~3,000 years ago and largely controlled trans-Saharan trade. Their biological affinities to other North African populations, including the Egyptian, Algerian, Tunisian and Sudanese, roughly contemporary to them, are examined by means of cranial nonmetric traits using the Mean Measure of Divergence and Mahalanobis D(2) distance. The aim is to shed light on the extent to which the Sahara Desert inhibited extensive population movements and gene flow. Our results show that the Garamantes possess distant affinities to their neighbors. This relationship may be due to the Central Sahara forming a barrier among groups, despite the archaeological evidence for extended networks of contact. The role of the Sahara as a barrier is further corroborated by the significant correlation between the Mahalanobis D(2) distance and geographic distance between the Garamantes and the other populations under study. In contrast, no clear pattern was observed when all North African populations were examined, indicating that there was no uniform gene flow in the region.
Sahara: Barrier or corridor? Nonmetric cranial traits and biological affinities of North African late Holocene populations.
Am J Phys Anthropol. 2012 Feb;147(2):280-92. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.21645. Epub 2011 Dec 20.
Leverhulme Centre for Human Evolutionary Studies, Department of Biological Anthropology, University of Cambridge, Fitzwilliam Street, Cambridge, UK.
Posted by Bilal Dogon (Member # 21572) on :
quote:Originally posted by HidayaAkade: Uhh... I'm a newbie on here and lioness is a troll. It's not a debate. Most people on here are not against a debate, but if you do post you gotta be able to back it up. This thread is basically a erroneous extension of the "North Africans were never African" spiel. That lie is old and its tired.
If you feel lioness is making some valid points, you should expound on it and put forth info. Second, you dismiss Troll Patrol's posts but is he lying? Does he have sound info?
Simply listening to one side of the debate is not going to help.
I see your point, and I mostly agree. My problem is that this thread in fact is mostly "North Africans were always black Africans" spiel which I believe is false. What I’m doing is exactly that: looking at two sides of a debate.
I’m on your side (and Troll Patrol’s too but he’s unable to understand that) and I know that black Africans were the early inhabitants of North Africa until they were pushed south later on. But when there have been light-skinned Berbers for hundreds of years, how fair is it to say they’re not true Berbers?
I’m a black Canadian, first generation, so am I wrong to say that I’m Canadian because my parents only lived here for 40 years? That’s not right.
All I’m saying is we should recognize the diversity of North Africa. I’m a newbie too but I’ve read old threads on the forum before I joined. And I don’t necessarily say lioness is always trolling. She does at times post things from another perspective that some members don’t want to see just because it possibly shows blacks were not always dominant in all regions of Africa.
Since my first post here, I see that some specific members fail to look at things critically, and ignore any research that goes against what they believe, calling this “Eurocentric lies” or trolls. Example: I was called a Eurocentric white troll here only because I asked a question about the head of King Narmer. The fact that I asked the question of why some ignorant people would label it a 25th century fraud (which I specifically said was false) and what the story was behind that lie, some members jumped on me, just for looking for evidence against the lie.
And I never said anything Troll Patrol posted was wrong, just that he copy and pastes endless articles that it’s more of spamming than actually debating. Not everyone here does that but him.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
And after Iberomaurusian and Capsian settlements and human remains evidence we had the the Garamantes
again, see location
Posted by Bilal Dogon (Member # 21572) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: Pathetic, so I am going to ask you again. Where is it. Where did you write it?
You're even more of an idiot than I thought. Again, must I repeat myself for the 5th time? Read my friggin first post on the second page!!! Are you blind?
And you just totally disregarded the rest of my post where I repeated that I agree with you. And you ignored my response to your question on the books I own. I see that I'm wasting my time talking to you.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: And after Iberomaurusian and Capsian settlements and human remains evidence we had the the Garamantes
again, see location
quote: This relationship may be due to the Central Sahara forming a barrier among groups, despite the archaeological evidence for extended networks of contact.
Sahara: Barrier or corridor? Nonmetric cranial traits and biological affinities of North African late Holocene populations.
Am J Phys Anthropol. 2012 Feb;147(2):280-92. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.21645. Epub 2011 Dec 20.
Leverhulme Centre for Human Evolutionary Studies, Department of Biological Anthropology, University of Cambridge, Fitzwilliam Street, Cambridge, UK.
Minor error, proto Berber is called Berber-Chadic.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: Pathetic, so I am going to ask you again. Where is it. Where did you write it?
You're even more of an idiot than I thought. Again, must I repeat myself for the 5th time? Read my friggin first post on the second page!!! Are you blind?
And you just totally disregarded the rest of my post where I repeated that I agree with you. And you ignored my response to your question on the books I own. I see that I'm wasting my time talking to you.
You ask me if I'm blind? No I am not.
Are you?
Figure 6. Principal components analysis of craniofacial dimensions among Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.
Craniometric data from seven human groups (Tables 3, 4) were subjected to principal components analysis, which allies the early Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-e) with mid-Holocene “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania [18], [26], [27] and with Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and early Holocene Capsians from across the Maghreb, mid-Holocene (ca. 4000 BP).
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
all this an attempt to steer the thread off Kabyle,, same PC map we've already seen him post 27 times before, spamming
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: all this an attempt to steer the thread off Kabyle
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: Mid-Holocene (ca. 4000 BP) Africans vs Gaiseric & The Vandal Conquest of North Africa, 406 - 477 CE. And Germanic Visigoths,19 who had entered from the north in the sixth century.
No it's not an attempt, it's mere show and proof that the Tamazight are indigenous to Africa and the origin is in the South, Sahara-Sahel. That's all.
It also mere shows and proof that the demographic was a altered by foreign people which makes the modern day population segment of the Kabyle not as the ancient population.
The eventual goal is to understand who the ancient population was, isn't it? As I said before the Kabyle is just a subgroup.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Mid-Holocene, see map, Capsian, Northern Algeria/Tunisia.
Then return to thread topic, Kayble, dry period Sahara
Posted by HidayaAkade (Member # 20642) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by HidayaAkade:
This thread is basically a erroneous extension of the "North Africans were never African" spiel. That lie is old and its tired.
Troll Patrol is saying there were no Noth Africans, people went into from the South
but the topic is Kabyle, not green period hunter gatherers even though I have been following him into his side track that is not dealing with the dry period of the thread topic
so stop cheerleading and sighing and contributing no content
The topic is Kayble and has not been covered that much on ES-it is not a topic on North Africans general
thanks, lioness
It's better to post nothing at all, than to repeatedly post the wrong info/lies. Posted by HidayaAkade (Member # 20642) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by HidayaAkade:
This thread is basically a erroneous extension of the "North Africans were never African" spiel. That lie is old and its tired.
Troll Patrol is saying there were no Noth Africans, people went into from the South
but the topic is Kabyle, not green period hunter gatherers even though I have been following him into his side track that is not dealing with the dry period of the thread topic
so stop cheerleading and sighing and contributing no content
The topic is Kayble and has not been covered that much on ES-it is not a topic on North Africans general
thanks, lioness
No, what he is saying is that you try to falsely history, and make it into that Africans never entered Northern Africa, this of course as I say again is a lie.
And again, the ancient population from the Magreb came from the South, from the Sahara-Sahel. These people became the first settlers of Northwest Africa. Northeast is a different story. Thou there is a common denominator eventually which can be traced back to the similar root. Yes, also from the South.
This too was posted several times.
I'm a woman by the way Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Mid-Holocene, see map, Capsian, Northern Algeria/Tunisia.
Then return to thread topic, Kayble, dry period Sahara
Yes, I have sen the map. Do tell, with whom do these cluster? See, you've answered your own question on the sudden skimming of the Neolithic Maghrebian population
Understand that the Fula and Tuareg are the ancient pastoralists of the Sahara region. In particular Northwest African repopulation.
quote: In the Sahara, population agglomeration is also evident in certain areas such as the Libyan Fezzan, which (albeit much later) also saw the emergence of an indigenous Saharan “civilization” in the form of the Garamantian Tribal Confederation, the development of which has been described explicitly in terms of adaptation to increased aridity (Brooks, 2006; di Lernia et al., 2002; Mattingly et al., 2003).
--Nick Brooks (2013): Beyond collapse: climate change and causality during the Middle Holocene Climatic Transition, 6400–5000 years before present, Geografisk Tidsskrift-Danish Journal of Geography, 112:2, 93-104
After the mid-Holocene we have sources from the Garamantes and such.
Garamantes are the suggested ancestors of the Tuareg.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by HidayaAkade:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by HidayaAkade:
This thread is basically a erroneous extension of the "North Africans were never African" spiel. That lie is old and its tired.
Troll Patrol is saying there were no Noth Africans, people went into from the South
but the topic is Kabyle, not green period hunter gatherers even though I have been following him into his side track that is not dealing with the dry period of the thread topic
so stop cheerleading and sighing and contributing no content
The topic is Kayble and has not been covered that much on ES-it is not a topic on North Africans general
thanks, lioness
No, what he is saying is that you try to falsely history, and make it into that Africans never entered Northern Africa, this of course as I say again is a lie.
And again, the ancient population from the Magreb came from the South, from the Sahara-Sahel. These people became the first settlers of Northwest Africa. Northeast is a different story. Thou there is a common denominator eventually which can be traced back to the similar root. Yes, also from the South.
This too was posted several times.
I'm a woman by the way
My bad, sorry. I looked at the avatar picture. And in rushing I took you for a male poster. Who is using the same image.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
Garamantes are the suggested ancestors of the Tuareg. [/QB]
and we can see on the map they, like the Capsians, were Maghrebians and before both of them the Iberomaurusian even further North on the coast, now explain where the South fits in in that context
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon: I’m a black Canadian, first generation, so am I wrong to say that I’m Canadian because my parents only lived here for 40 years? That’s not right.
I see that you have the interlopers creed down pat. Clearly you feel that those Albinos in Ottawa are REAL Canadians, the defining authority that is.
Now lets turn that a bit, instead of asking that question of fellow interlopers, what say you go and find a native Canadian Indian and ask the question of them.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
Garamantes are the suggested ancestors of the Tuareg.
and we can see they. like the Capsians were Maghrebians and both of them before them the Iberomaurusian even further North to the coast, now explain where the South fits in in that context [/QB]
As I have posted before, and will repeat for you again.
The Tuareg and Fula are well known pastoralists.
The South doesn't mean the Eastern part of the Sahara, but as well the Western part.
Hence the paper on Mauritania and West Sahara.
See, I don't like to repeat and explain the same thing over and over. This is why I simply cite and recite.
Because this seems more and more like a stupid joke, of acting ignorant and arrogant.
All the answers are and can be found in the anthropological papers I've posted. You claim to have read.
Remember this one?
quote: The ruins were discovered deep in the desert of Western Sahara The remains of a prehistoric town dating back 15,000 years have been discovered in the Moroccan-administered territory of Western Sahara. The Moroccan state media on Thursday said a team of scientists stumbled across the sand-covered ruins of the town Arghilas, deep in the desert of Western Sahara.
The remains of a place of worship, houses and a necropolis, as well as columns and rock engravings depicting animals, were found at the site near the northeastern town of Aousserd.
Significant find
The isolated area is known to be rich in prehistoric rock engravings, but experts said the discovery could be significant if proven that the ruins were of Berber origin as this civilisation is believed to date back only about 9000 years.
"It appears that scientists have come up with the 15,000-year estimate judging by the style of engravings and the theme of the drawings," Mustafa Ouachi, a Rabat-based Berber historian said.
Berbers are the original inhabitants of North Africa before Arabs came to spread Islam in the seventh century.
The population of Western Sahara, seized by Morocco in 1975 when former colonial power Spain pulled out, is mostly of Berber and Arab descent.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: Pathetic, so I am going to ask you again. Where is it. Where did you write it?
You're even more of an idiot than I thought. Again, must I repeat myself for the 5th time? Read my friggin first post on the second page!!! Are you blind?
And you just totally disregarded the rest of my post where I repeated that I agree with you. And you ignored my response to your question on the books I own. I see that I'm wasting my time talking to you.
You ask me if I'm blind? No I am not.
Blind and dumb. You cherry-pick what you want to see and ignore the rest.
You're clearly incapable of reading what someone has to say or of conducting unbiased research.
I'm tired of arguing with an idiot over a topic I have no interest in. It's like talking to a child. I'm done.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: Pathetic, so I am going to ask you again. Where is it. Where did you write it?
You're even more of an idiot than I thought. Again, must I repeat myself for the 5th time? Read my friggin first post on the second page!!! Are you blind?
And you just totally disregarded the rest of my post where I repeated that I agree with you. And you ignored my response to your question on the books I own. I see that I'm wasting my time talking to you.
You ask me if I'm blind? No I am not.
Blind and dumb. You cherry-pick what you want to see and ignore the rest.
You're clearly incapable of reading what someone has to say or of conducting unbiased research.
I'm tired of arguing with an idiot over a topic I have no interest in. It's like talking to a child. I'm done.
Hmmmm...what exactly did I cherry pic?
What exactly did I ignore?
Mid-Holocene (ca. 4000 BP) Africans vs Gaiseric & The Vandal Conquest of North Africa, 406 - 477 CE. And Germanic Visigoths,19 who had entered from the north in the sixth century?
You never had a solid argument in the first place. And no, you aren't wasting your time. Hence the screen name: Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor. And the lower bar: pAsidaw SIGILLUM SECRETUM.
Bye,
Rif Tafarsit Ichebdanen Ibuqquyen Ait Wayagher Aith 'Ammarth Igzinnayen Themsaman Ait Tuzin Aith Sa'id Aith Wurishik Iqer3ayen. Ibdarsen Ait Bouyahyi Ait Tourish Iznassen Ayt Khaled Ayt Menquch Ayt Aâtiq Ayt Urimmech Chleuh Ait namann Ait Baha, Biougra, Bouzakern Tiznit Zimmur, Ait Ndhir, Ait Yusi, Ait Warayin, Iziyyan, Ait Imyill, Ait Mhand, Ait Massad, Ait Sukhman, Ihansalen, Ait Siddrat, Ait 'Atta, Ait Murghad, Ait Hadiddu, Ait Izdig, Ait 'Ayyash, Ait Saghrushshn Ihahan, Imtuggan, Iseksawen, Idemsiren, Igundafen, Igedmiwen, Imsfiwen, Iglawn, Ait Wawzgit, Id aw-Zaddagh, Ind aw-Zal, Id aw Zkri, Isaffen, Id aw-Kansus, Isuktan, Id aw-Tanan, Ashtuken, Malen, Id aw-Ltit, Ammeln, Ait 'Ali, Mjjat, l-Akhsas, Ait Ba 'Amran, Ait n-Nuss. Kabylie (Algeria) IFLISSEN OUM EL LIL MAATKA AÏT AÏSSI AÏT IRATEN AÏT MENGUELLAT AÏT BETHROUN AÏT SEDKA IGOUCHDAL IFLISSEN LEBHAR AÏT OUAGUENOUN AÏT DJENNAD AÏT IDJER Beni Ziyyat Beni Zejel Beni Selman Beni Bu Zra (ghomara tmazight speakers) Beni Mansur Beni Grir Beni Smih Beni Rzin Sinhaja die tmazight spreken en/of darija Aith seddat aith khannus zarqat ktama aith bshir taghzut beni bu shibt Sinhaja (darija speakers). Beni Gmil Terguist Mix Riffijns/Sinhaja aith mazdui Rif (darjia) Bni Bu Frah Mtiwa Aith Yittuft Bargwata Casa blanca/ rabat Tunisia Djerba Libya Nefousa Tuareg ( Sahara-general) Tamashek Tinariwen (Mali, Algiers en Mauritania) Siwa(Egypte) (Algiers) Chaouia (North East)(Aurès mountains), Chenoua (North central to the coast) Mozabites (North Sahara) (Tunisia) Matmata
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
This too was posted several times.
Iberomaurusian green, Capsian blue
as we can see, of the North not the South, and archaeological evidence supporting that
Hmmmm, this map is not about the origin of the people. It mere shows sites inhabited by Caspians and Iberomaurusian at the Magreb. And it's a from Wikipedia btw, unless you see this as peer reviewed scholarship?
I too find it ironic and a bit frustrating I have to repost the same again. And I truly wonder why it just can't sink into you?
quote: Craniometric data from seven human groups (Tables 3, 4) were subjected to principal components analysis, which allies the early Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-e) with mid-Holocene “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania [18], [26], [27] and with Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and early Holocene Capsians from across the Maghreb
[...]
Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero, who were buried with Kiffian material culture, with Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene humans from the Maghreb and southern Sahara referred to as Iberomaurusians, Capsians and “Mechtoids.”
--Paul C. Sereno Lakeside Cemeteries in the Sahara: 5000 Years of Holocene Population and Environmental Change
quote:
Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin,
[...]
At the opposite end of the chronological spectrum, dental morphology does suggest connections with later Africans, including those responsible for the Capsian Industry (Irish 2000) and early mid-Holocene human remains from the western half of the Sahara (Dutour 1989), something that points to the Maghreb as one of the regions from which people recolonised the desert (MacDonald 1998).
--Lawrence Barham The First Africans: African Archaeology from the Earliest Toolmakers to Most Recent Foragers (Cambridge World Archaeology)
Posted by HidayaAkade (Member # 20642) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon:
quote:Originally posted by HidayaAkade: Uhh... I'm a newbie on here and lioness is a troll. It's not a debate. Most people on here are not against a debate, but if you do post you gotta be able to back it up. This thread is basically a erroneous extension of the "North Africans were never African" spiel. That lie is old and its tired.
If you feel lioness is making some valid points, you should expound on it and put forth info. Second, you dismiss Troll Patrol's posts but is he lying? Does he have sound info?
Simply listening to one side of the debate is not going to help.
I see your point, and I mostly agree. My problem is that this thread in fact is mostly "North Africans were always black Africans" spiel which I believe is false. What I’m doing is exactly that: looking at two sides of a debate.
I’m on your side (and Troll Patrol’s too but he’s unable to understand that) and I know that black Africans were the early inhabitants of North Africa until they were pushed south later on. But when there have been light-skinned Berbers for hundreds of years, how fair is it to say they’re not true Berbers?
I’m a black Canadian, first generation, so am I wrong to say that I’m Canadian because my parents only lived here for 40 years? That’s not right.
All I’m saying is we should recognize the diversity of North Africa. I’m a newbie too but I’ve read old threads on the forum before I joined. And I don’t necessarily say lioness is always trolling. She does at times post things from another perspective that some members don’t want to see just because it possibly shows blacks were not always dominant in all regions of Africa.
Since my first post here, I see that some specific members fail to look at things critically, and ignore any research that goes against what they believe, calling this “Eurocentric lies” or trolls. Example: I was called a Eurocentric white troll here only because I asked a question about the head of King Narmer. The fact that I asked the question of why some ignorant people would label it a 25th century fraud (which I specifically said was false) and what the story was behind that lie, some members jumped on me, just for looking for evidence against the lie.
And I never said anything Troll Patrol posted was wrong, just that he copy and pastes endless articles that it’s more of spamming than actually debating. Not everyone here does that but him.
I have no beef with you but implying she posts things for different perspective is bull. Look through this site. She posts the same things inaccurate things over and over and gets debunked. Every Week. That's why nobody has patience or respect for her.
As for North Africans, can we all agree on these facts?
North Africa was filled with Indigenous Africans (as all of Africa was). The indigenous population was pushed south and/or intermixed with Non-Africans over centuries.
Which is melting pot we have now.
Fact.
As for Light skinned Berbers, that's possible because it is well within African diversity to produce it.
However posting the light skinned, admixed people of today is inaccurate.
Also the comparison of being Black Canadian is off the mark.
You are a Canadian, yes but you are of modern extraction. You are not of indigenous ancestry, correct?
I'm African American and my ancestors have been here for centuries but no matter how long I am here my people will never be indigenous and cannot be used to portray the indigenous people of this country.
Same goes for European Americans and anyone who is not Native- American.
That goes for you and everyone else in the North American/ South American countries and inbetween.
Modern Day Africa is diverse but when we are discussing the INDIGENOUS people, all the modern day non-Africans and their heavily mixed offspring are not included because they are not the original people/ nor represent them aesthetically.
Understand?
Posted by HidayaAkade (Member # 20642) on :
*delete*
Posted by HidayaAkade (Member # 20642) on :
*delete*
Posted by HidayaAkade (Member # 20642) on :
*delete*
Posted by HidayaAkade (Member # 20642) on :
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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
HidayaAkade knows zero about the Kabyle
quote:Originally posted by HidayaAkade:
North Africa was filled with Indigenous Africans (as all of Africa was). The indigenous population was pushed south and/or intermixed with Non-Africans over centuries.
Which is melting pot we have now.
Fact.
As for Light skinned Berbers, that's possible because it is well within African diversity to produce it.
However posting the light skinned, admixed people of today is inaccurate.
^^^ dumb
Posted by HidayaAkade (Member # 20642) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: HidayaAkade knows zero about the Kabyle
That makes 2 of us. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by HidayaAkade:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: HidayaAkade knows zero about the Kabyle
That makes 2 of us.
How would someone who knows nothing about the Kabyle know if someone else who posted about them knew nothing about the Kabyle, answer> dumbness
Posted by HidayaAkade (Member # 20642) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by HidayaAkade:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: HidayaAkade knows zero about the Kabyle
That makes 2 of us.
How would someone who knows nothing about the Kabyle know if someone else who posted about them knew nothing about the Kabyle, answer> dumbness
I'm sorry KNOWLEDGEABLE one, how dare I question your cut and paste knowledge.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb]
This too was posted several times.
Iberomaurusian green, Capsian blue
as we can see, of the North not the South, and archaeological evidence supporting that
Hmmmm, this map is not about the origin of the people. It mere shows sites inhabited by Caspians and Iberomaurusian at the Magreb. And it's a from Wikipedia btw, unless you see this as peer reviewed scholarship?
I too find it ironic and a bit frustrating I have to repost the same again. And I truly wonder why it just can't sink into you?
You love reposting, stop it.
You misread these articles
And if a map came from wikipedia and I use it to show that the Iberomaurusians settlements were along the coast of North Africa it is a waste of time to say that it is wrong because it came from wikipedia. Unless you are saying that Iberomaurusians did not come from coastal North Africa then dont bother attacking wikipedia unless you can prove the information wrong, thats ad hominem
CNET News Consumer services December 15, 2005 3:35 PM PST
Seven trans-Saharan populations cluster together, whereas Late Pleistocene Aterians (Ater) and the mid-Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-m) are striking outliers.
(the part you left out)
Iberomaurusians are not Kiffians and Tenerians are not Capsians Iberomaurusians lasted over 9,000 years in the Maghreb. -and their culture ended 9,000 years ago also. Sereno notes differeneces and similarities between the morpholgies of these cultures. But he does not say because of similarities that the Iberomaurusians were Sahelians
These early occupants abandon the area under arid conditions and, when humid conditions return ~4600 B.C.E., are replaced by a more gracile people with elaborated grave goods including animal bone and ivory ornaments.
Population replacement after a harsh arid hiatus is the most likely explanation for the occupational sequence at Gobero.
Arid interruption. Early and mid-Holocene occupation phases 2 and 3 at Gobero are separated in time by a barren interval (6200–5200 B.C.E), which is associated with a period of severe aridification recorded across the Sahara.
Population replacement. Population replacement rather than gradual phenotypic evolution best explains the distinctive craniofacial morphology and funerary practices of the human occupants during phases 2 and 3 in the early and mid-Holocene, respectively, particularly considering the relatively short intervening occupational hiatus. ___________________________________________________
The origin of Iberomaurusiens in north- west Africa
Origins of the Iberomaurusian in NW Africa: New AMS radiocarbon dating of the Middle and Later Stone Age deposits at Taforalt Cave, Morocco 2013
.N.E. Barton et al.
This study showed that there is no cultural continuity between iberomaurusienne industry and the one before . Thus, in the northwest of Africa the transition between the Middle Paleolithic and Upper Paleolithic corresponds to the arrival of a lamellar industry around 22,000 years driven by population growth sub- clades of mitochondrial haplogroup U6 . Remains whether this event is related to the arrival of a new population in the Maghreb following the disappearance of Middle Paleolithic cultures or not, and if it is linked to climate change. ________________________________________________
you don't understand continuity and repalcement issues as well as ending points of these cultures
The topic is Kayble. If you can't tie these things to them you are straying from the topic.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Your post above is a mess, and inordinate.then you go grab a 2005 article from cnet? To prove what?
For this extreme dumb person, go and reread my post.
I cited as it says Gobero (Gob-e) not Gob-m.
I am speaking of:
Gobero (Gob-e)
Gobero (Gob-e)
Gobero (Gob-e)
Gobero (Gob-e)
Gobero (Gob-e)
Gobero (Gob-e)
Gobero (Gob-e)
Got it!
quote: "No southwest Asian specific clades for M1 or U6 were discovered. U6 and M1 frequencies in North Africa, the Middle East and Europe do not follow similar patterns, and their sub-clade divisions do not appear to be compatible with their shared history reaching back to the Early Upper Palaeolithic."
--Erwan Pennarun et al. Divorcing the Late Upper Palaeolithic demographic histories of mtDNA haplogroups M1 and U6 in Africa, BMC Evolutionary Biology 2012, 12:234
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
see thread topic Kabyle not Gobero ( Kiffians.Tenerians)
Got it!
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: see thread topic Kabyle not Gobero ( Kiffians.Tenerians)
Got it!
No I don't get it, the ancient Gobero population was inhabited by proto Tamazight, known as the ancestors of the Tuareg and till this day the Tuareg have settled this place.
The Tuareg are Tamazight pastoralists. Which is the key to all these questions.
The Kabyle are a YOUNG subgroup amongst the Tamazight.
Those who inhabited the Magreb originate at the South, what is now known as the Sahara and Sahel.
You are pathetic.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
U6 likely originated as a small pock somewhere at the Horn-East Africa. Even in Kenya. It's found there too.
There are no complications.
quote: "No southwest Asian specific clades for M1 or U6 were discovered. U6 and M1 frequencies in North Africa, the Middle East and Europe do not follow similar patterns, and their sub-clade divisions do not appear to be compatible with their shared history reaching back to the Early Upper Palaeolithic."
--Erwan Pennarun et al. Divorcing the Late Upper Palaeolithic demographic histories of mtDNA haplogroups M1 and U6 in Africa, BMC Evolutionary Biology 2012, 12:234
quote:
Recent genetic studies based on the distribution of mtDNA of haplogroup U6 have led to subtly different theories regarding the arrival of modern human populations in North Africa.
One proposes that groups of the proto-U6 lineage spread from the Near East to North Africa around 40–45 ka (thousands of years ago), followed by some degree of regional continuity.
Another envisages a westward human migration from the Near East, followed by further demographic expansion at ∼22 ka centred on the Maghreb and associated with a microlithic bladelet culture known as the Iberomaurusian.
In evaluating these theories, we report on the results of new work on the Middle (MSA) and Later Stone (LSA) Age deposits at Taforalt Cave in Morocco.
We present 54 AMS radiocarbon dates on bone and charcoals from a sequence of late MSA and LSA occupation levels of the cave. Using Bayesian modelling we show that an MSA non-Levallois flake industry was present until ∼24.5 ka Cal BP (calibrated years before present), followed by a gap in occupation and the subsequent appearance of an LSA Iberomaurusian industry from at least 21,160 Cal BP.
The new dating offers fresh light on theories of continuity versus replacement of populations as presented by the genetic evidence.
We examine the implications of these data for interpreting the first appearance of the LSA in the Maghreb and providing comparisons with other dated early blade and bladelet industries in North Africa.
--R.N.E. Barton
Origins of the Iberomaurusian in NW Africa: New AMS radiocarbon dating of the Middle and Later Stone Age deposits at Taforalt Cave, Morocco
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
The Kabyle are a YOUNG subgroup amongst the Tamazight.
prove it
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
The Kabyle are a YOUNG subgroup amongst the Tamazight.
prove it
I already did. I did it throughout the entire thread.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
The Kabyle are a YOUNG subgroup amongst the Tamazight.
prove it
I already did. I did it throughout the entire thread.
No you didn't you gave no indication of the beginning point of the Kabyle in the thread. You've been off on tangents
example of games:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Aren't the Kabyle a recent Berber group?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: All this talk of the prehistoric presence of anatomically modern humans in North Africa and specifically the Maghreb remind me of certain populations in the area some of which are relatively isolated who exhibit robust cranio-facial features ...
If you can get the book Imazighen: The Vanishing Traditions of Berber Women Margaret Courtney-Clarke; Geraldine Brooks New York: C. Potter, 1996
it's got at least one pic of an archaic admixed looking woman in the mountain fastnesses. I've never seen the type anywhere else in print or the 'net. It's either overlooked (intentionally ?) or it's very rare.
It's one of the books of my now lost personal library. I'll try and find it and scan the relevant pics.
Please people keep it on the Kabyle topic, not berber general, thanks
Wow, a lot of contradictory statements in a single post. Guess you don't know what you mean yourself. Since the woman is a Tamazight African of course she looks African, duh, you even compared her to another Tamazight as grandmother and grandchild.
Why yes I surmised the womans physical continuity with pre-Berber littoral and Atlas North Africans in the Modern Day North Africans who Exhibit 'Archaic' Features thread and in the very next post there I also gave out her residence. However she left her hometown elsewhere to marry an Ait Mgoun man. GOOGLing Ait Mgoun returns a map which can be unzoomed to see where it is in reference to Kabylie.
In the future if you want to find out about something I post ASK ME.
Swenet was sharp enough to notice that facial bone structure in a Levantine male skull presumably archaic -- epipaleolithic/Neolithic (?).
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
Prehistoric Levantine skull. Compare the tall maxilla and somewhat flaring zygomatic arches they have in common.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuker:
Why yes I surmised.....
you can tell an original Tamazight from a Sub Saharan who only integrated into Tamazight culture in recent times. An original Tamazight is light skinned with straight hair as we see above
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuker:
Why yes I surmised.....
you can tell an original Tamazight from a Sub Saharan who only integrated into Tamazight culture in recent times. An original Tamazight is light skinned with straight hair as we see above
Ha,ha,ha,ha:
Still trying to pass-off Mulattoes as original Africans I see.
He,he,he,he: No dear, there is no such a Race as Mulatto or Mediterranean.
Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha.
Damn you're stupid!
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: It would be important IMO to also have the Y-DNA analysis of those ancient Iberomaurusian remains, not just the MtDNA side. There's none as far as I know (if you have them, post them).
If we take into account the sex-biased genetic structuring and the heterogeneity of modern Berber, from the same region. It would be important to compare those with the Y-DNA analysis of those Iberomaurusian remains.
From what I recall, Ancient Iberomaurusian remains certainly seem to have some Eurasian genes in them from a very ancient time, including European ones (mtDNA) from the Iberian peninsula. Iberomaurusian culture seems to be restricted to the Maghreb/NorthWestern African region. Usually, as mentioned by archeological literature, any geographical regions are inhabited by various populations and lineages even in those times (late paleolithic, early Holocene). Iberomaurusian have been preceded by Aterian (of African origin) and succeed by Caspian (of unknown origin). As often mentioned those are rough/crude categorization, possibly hiding intra and inter population diversity and the lack of archeological research. It's still very speculative. In archeological literature, it's also not clear if there's continuity between those various ancient archeological culture and any modern descendant populations or population replacement. Although imo, Iberomaurusian seems to be related to many Berber populations.
We know Berber populations have a low nucleotide diversity and are example of sex-biased genetic structuring. Probably the (sex biased) interbreeding of groups from different geographical origin. At the very least, one basal Eurasian (MtDNA HUV) grouping, one basal African/East African (E-M215)/E-M81) grouping. Is it the same situation with the Iberomaurusian remains? It's hard to know without the Y-DNA counterpart.
(I'm also interested to know **when** did the high level of "genetic drift" happened. We know Berber populations have a low nucleotide diversity and are example of sex-biased genetic structuring. There's also a high level of heterogeneity between various Berber population from different regions. With a very high level of East African basal E-M215 and a relatively high level of Eurasian basal MtDNA (HUV). So at the very least, 2 groups from different ancient origin met and interbreed with each other. There was also a strong genetic drift/founding effect. So the genetic structuring/composition we have now, was probably different at one point in the past. A founder effect before their arrival in North Africa, could explain the lack of genetic diversity. A small group of people leaving a larger group with only a fraction of the genetic diversity of the larger group. The high level of "genetic drift" could also have happened after their arrival in the Maghreb (conflicts, famine, diseases, other selective pressure, random genetic drifting, all of the above, etc). I'm not sure which one is more plausible. So for me, it's not clear if Berber lost their genetic diversity before their arrival in North Africa or afterward )
If anything, the study of Iberomaurusian remains MtDNA in the Maghreb, seem to confirm a very ancient female biased Eurasian descendant presence (MtDNA HUV) in Africa (possibly alongside African Y-DNA presence, judging by the Berber). There was probably other related or unrelated groups in the regions which will be possibly clarified with further archeological studies. The lack of archeological ventures in Africa will always limit any big picture analysis of Ancient populations. Archeologists and historians speculate with the little they have, which must always be kept in mind when we try to speculate on a full picture. [/qb]
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by HidayaAkade:
As for Light skinned Berbers, that's possible because it is well within African diversity to produce it.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuker:
Why yes I surmised.....
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Since the woman is a Tamazight African of course she looks African, duh
^^^ original white of Africa
.
^^^^ descendant
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: WOULD SOMEBODY PLEASE SHOW OR NAME ME A BLACK PEOPLE IN AFRICA WITH MOSTLY STRAIGHT HAIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!BEFORE I GO CRAZY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!lol!
.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Most Khoisans have varying degrees of bantu admixture, nevertheless disregard anything Mike says, in retarded fashion he calls Khosians of the above complexion "mulatto"
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Most Khoisans have varying degrees of bantu admixture, nevertheless disregard anything Mike says, in retarded fashion he calls Khosians of the above complexion "mulatto"
Coloured
In the South African, Namibian, Zambian, Botswana and Zimbabwean context, the term Coloured (also known as Bruinmense, Kleurlinge or Bruin Afrikaners in Afrikaans) refers to a heterogeneous ethnic group who possess ancestry from Europe and various Khoisan and Bantu tribes of Southern Africa. Besides the extensive combining of these diverse heritages in the Western Cape — in which a distinctive Cape Coloured and affiliated Cape Malay culture developed — in other parts of Southern Africa, their development has usually been the result of the meeting of two distinct groups. Genetic studies suggest the group has the highest levels of mixed ancestry in the world. However, the maternal (female) contribution to the Coloured population, measured by mitochondrial DNA studies, was found to come mostly from the Khoisan population.
In KwaZulu-Natal, most Coloureds come from British and Zulu heritage,[citation needed] while Zimbabwean Coloureds come from Shona or Ndebele mixing with British and Afrikaner settlers. Griqua, on the other hand, are descendants of Khoisan and Afrikaner Trekboers. Despite these major differences, the fact that they draw parentage from more than one naturalised racial group means that they are coloured in the southern African context. Such people did not necessarily self-identify this way; some preferred to call themselves black or Khoisan or just South African. The history of racial segregation and labelling in South Africa and neighbouring countries has meant that the governments placed all such mixed race people in a certain relationship together. The imperial and apartheid governments categorized them as Coloureds. In addition, other ethnic groups also traditionally viewed them as a separate group.
During the apartheid era, in order to keep divisions and maintain a race-focused society, the government used the term Coloured to describe one of the four main racial groups identified by law: Blacks, Whites, Coloureds and Indians. (All four terms were capitalised in apartheid-era law.)
Many Griqua began to self-identify as Coloureds during the apartheid era. There were certain advantages in becoming classified as Coloured. For example, Coloureds did not have to carry a dompas (an identity document designed to limit the movements of the non-white populace), while the Griqua, who were seen as another indigenous African group, did.
Coloured people constitute a plurality of the population in the Western Cape (48.8%) and a large minority in the Northern Cape (40.3%) and Eastern Cape (8.3%) provinces. Most speak Afrikaans, while about twenty percent of Coloureds speak English as their mother tongue, mostly in the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal. However, virtually all Cape Town Coloureds are bilingual. Some can comfortably codeswitch between Kaapse taal (a creolized dialect of Afrikaans spoken mostly in the Cape Flats) and suiwer Afrikaans (formal Afrikaans as taught at school), and English.
Lioness, I know that I'm beginning to sound like a broken record But......
Damn you're stupid!
KING please don't think me cruel, but come-on, she asks for it, nah, Begs for it! Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Mike thinks these people are 'Coloured' South Africans
Idiot these are indigenous
_________________________________
These are 'Coloured'
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^Ya, they all look the same.
And the Afrikaners never fuched bush women.
He,he,he,he:
Damn you're stupid!
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: [QB] ^Ya, they all look the same.
to the stupid
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^I don't suppose you would want to divulge where that little gem came from?
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
The Kabyle are a YOUNG subgroup amongst the Tamazight.
prove it
I already did. I did it throughout the entire thread.
No you didn't you gave no indication of the beginning point of the Kabyle in the thread. You've been off on tangents
example of games:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Aren't the Kabyle a recent Berber group?
What do you mean by recent?
Yes, I did. It's in the anthropology, weird clown.
quote:Back to the beginning! In April 20th, 1980 indeed, the collective “soul” of the Kabyle people, of nearly three thousand years aged, in a fabulous and unprecedented popular communion gushed from beneath the tombs of silence, the dismissed calends and the contemptible rule of the established political order in which the human stupidity had, for a moment, thought to lock their still alive burial forever.
--Dr. Dahmane At Ali. Associated Professor, University of Pisa, Italy.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: Yes, I did. It's in the anthropology, weird clown.
quote:Back to the beginning! In April 20th, 1980 indeed, the collective “soul” of the Kabyle people, of nearly three thousand years aged, in a fabulous and unprecedented popular communion gushed from beneath the tombs of silence, the dismissed calends and the contemptible rule of the established political order in which the human stupidity had, for a moment, thought to lock their still alive burial forever.
--Dr. Dahmane At Ali. Associated Professor, University of Pisa, Italy.
possibly some Phoenician traders or Sea people may have been in the region then, it's not certain and if they were to what extent they contributed to the population
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: Yes, I did. It's in the anthropology, weird clown.
quote:Back to the beginning! In April 20th, 1980 indeed, the collective “soul” of the Kabyle people, of nearly three thousand years aged, in a fabulous and unprecedented popular communion gushed from beneath the tombs of silence, the dismissed calends and the contemptible rule of the established political order in which the human stupidity had, for a moment, thought to lock their still alive burial forever.
--Dr. Dahmane At Ali. Associated Professor, University of Pisa, Italy.
possibly some Phoenician traders or Sea people may have been in the region then, it's not certain and if they were to what extent they contributed to the population [/QB]
Of course before. LOL
It took a lot of steps, but we finally got there.
A quick final summary, and we're done.
quote: E1b1b1b (E-M81) is the most common Y chromosome haplogroup in the Maghreb, dominated by its sub-clade E-M183. It is thought to have originated in the area of North Africa 5,600 years ago
--Cruciani et al. 2004, Arredi et al. (2004)
quote:The older occupants have craniofacial dimensions that demonstrate similarities with mid-Holocene occupants of the southern Sahara and Late Pleistocene to early Holocene inhabitants of the Maghreb.
quote:These early occupants abandon the area under arid conditions and, when humid conditions return ~4600 B.C.E., are replaced by a more gracile people with elaborated grave goods including animal bone and ivory ornaments.
quote: Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero with a skeletally robust, trans-Saharan assemblage of Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene human populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.
quote:Figure 6. Principal components analysis of craniofacial dimensions among Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.
Plot of first two principal components extracted from a mean matrix for 17 craniometric variables (Tables 4, 7) in 9 human populations (Table 3) from the Late Pleistocene through the mid-Holocene from the Maghreb and southern Sahara. Seven trans-Saharan populations cluster together, whereas Late Pleistocene Aterians (Ater) and the mid-Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-m) are striking outliers. Axes are scaled by the square root of the corresponding eigenvalue for the principal component. Abbreviations: Ater, Aterian; EMC, eastern Maghreb Capsian; EMI, eastern Maghreb Iberomaurusian; Gob-e, Gobero early Holocene; Gob-m, Gobero mid-Holocene; Mali, Hassi-el-Abiod, Mali; Maur, Mauritania; WMC, western Maghreb Capsian; WMI, western Maghreb Iberomaurusian.
--(doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0002995.g006)
quote:Craniometric data from seven human groups (Tables 3, 4) were subjected to principal components analysis, which allies the early Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-e) with mid-Holocene “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania [18], [26], [27] and with Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and early Holocene Capsians from across the Maghreb (see cluster in Figure 6). The striking similarity between these seven human populations confirms previous suggestions regarding their affinity [18] and is particularly significant given their temporal range (Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene) and trans-Saharan geographic distribution (across the Maghreb to the southern Sahara).
quote: Trans-Saharan craniometry. Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero, who were buried with Kiffian material culture, with Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene humans from the Maghreb and southern Sahara referred to as Iberomaurusians, Capsians and “Mechtoids.” Outliers to this cluster of populations include an older Aterian sample and the mid-Holocene occupants at Gobero associated with Tenerean material culture.
--Paul C. Sereno
Lakeside Cemeteries in the Sahara: 5000 Years of Holocene Population and Environmental Change
The Kiffian & Tenerean Occupation Of Gobero, Niger: Perhaps The Largest Collection Of Early-Mid Holocene People In Africa
quote:This site has been called Gobero, after the local Tuareg name for the area. About 10,000 years ago (7700–6200 B.C.E.), Gobero was a much less arid environment than it is now. In fact, it was actually a rather humid lake side hometown of sorts for a group of hunter-fisher-gatherers who not only lived their but also buried their dead there. How do we know they were fishing? Well, remains of large nile perch and harpoons were found dating to this time period.
The above encapsulated exactly with the Genetic mutation occurrence of E-V68, E-M81. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^ stuff is off topic
topic = Kabyle, reminder to the spammer
left off at 987 BC Algeria, try to stay focused
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ stuff is off topic
topic = Kabyle, reminder to the spammer
left off at 987 BC Algeria, try to stay focused
For the LOVE of GOD,
Sad sad sad....
I will "try" to explain it to you once more.
The Kabyle are a sub ethnic group amongst the Tamazight. (Sub-Tamazight). Who came into existence not so long ago, like 3000 years ago.(987 BC Algeria).
The ancient Tamazight came from the South, as was shown countless of times by archeological and anthropological studies.
Algeria is in the Magreb, for your information.
Of which I just made a quick summary, as a reminder where we stand.
The demographic of population was then shifted due to invasions. And as I mentioned only yesterday. The Kabyle in itself are a young ethnic group. Which I luckily was able to show off today, with a sources by Dr. Dahmane At Ali. Since you didn't believe my words yesterday. As I described it with my own words.
I did all the heavy lifting I this thread, you just sat on that lazy ass. While I did all the hard work.
The real spamming was done by you, when you came with; more pseudo non-proven theories of "possibly" admixture, by whomever? Mere babble and pompom shaking.
Give me a B, give me a l give me a i, give me a n, give me a g, give me a D, give me a O, give a me G, give me a G.
Bling D.O.G.G. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: For the LOVE of GOD,
Sad sad sad....
I will "try" to explain it to you once more.
The Kabyle are a sub ethnic group amongst the Tamazight. (Sub-Tamazight). Who came into existence not so long ago, like 3000 years ago.(987 BC Algeria).
The ancient Tamazight came from the South, as was shown countless of times by archeological and anthropological studies.
"Sub ethnic group" is not porper terminology. They are a Tamazight group not a sub Tamazight group
show one article that says the berbers came from the South, Show me that in one sentence from an article
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
Algeria is in the Magreb, for your information.
yes and I have been pointing that out to you from the start, it.s not Gobero
and Iberomaurusian had been in the coastal Maghreb for 9,000 or more years
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
The demographic of population was then shifted due to invasions. And as I mentioned only yesterday. The Kabyle in itself are a young ethnic group. Which I luckily was able to show off today, with a sources by Dr. Dahmane At Ali. Since you didn't believe my words yesterday. As I described it with my own words.
I did all the heavy lifting I this thread, you just sat on that lazy ass. While I did all the hard work.
btw Dahmane MAZED is a nuclear engineer, political writer not an anthropologist or historian although that does not necessarily make him wrong, his doctorate is irrelevant to the topic
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
@lioness
Aye...Sorry I took so long top reply. Been busy with kid.
there is no hard proof for anything I've said or you said, Acytually,..Not trying to be cocky. But there is hard proof for what I've said and that the Kabyle are more of a recent Berber tribe.
Again you will never find dozens of early photographs of everyday Kabyle Berbers who hardly fulfill the 'Europoid' dreams of today's observers. They look like everyday Saharans. This should't surprise us given that Berbers, because of their male-mediated migration patterns, are highly heterogeneous.
But more importantly...Lets get to the nitty gritty.
Christian renegades (Spanish, Italian, French, Albanian, etc. who would eventually convert to Islam) and the medieval slave trade had a major impact on places like Tlemcen, Oran, Bejaia (Bougie - Kabyle central) and especially Alger. Jacques Heers argues in "Les barbaresques" (2001, pg 227) at the time of Turkish rule in Algeria, something like 50% of the population in the capital was composed of European-Christian slaves (even Italian slaves by the seventeenth century). Saqalibas from the Balkans were also well represented. Besides, Arab excursions displaced many of the ancestral populations of the Maghreb between the 12th-15th centuries.
Again...Which is why you have this.
Kabyle
Women from Balkans
Coincidence?
also somebody broad nosed and dark skinned is not even necessarily deep rooted North African, they could have been SSA migrants at any point within several hundred years who admixed with others. Or they could be indigenous.
Never denied that. IIRC I said modern North Africans have a more mulatto look and the stereotypical looking African ones and the white looking ones were a minority. This women looks like a native Saharan.
So I don't get your point.
I can't explain why she looks like this. She has straight hair what ethnic group in North Africa has straight hair like this? I'm not talking about posting random pictures of people that might have Indian admixture I'm talking about a namable tribe in North Africa. Did this particular woman live in high altitude mountain regions. I don't know. Native adaptation?
A lot of ethnic groups in North Africa/Sahel have straight hair like that from my observation.
Tuareg:
Tuareg:
North Sudan:
Hausa/Fulani:
So yeah I would say higher latitude would be the cause. Unless you agree agree with Mike111 that higher latitude can't have affects on adaptations. thus believe Europeans are the result of albinos.-__-
I hope you're smarter than that Lioness....
Are some of the Kabyles descended from Germanic Vandals of the 5th century who invaded ? If so it is many hundreds of years before these photos and paintings we are looking at. And as I have shown many times before there is such thing as a "swarthy" European Read my first reply...Again I told you this before. Almost all Vandals were EXPELLED by the Romans. People seem to not get this.
this man might be some admixture. Its hard to tell but he may have been brown skinned
Again, Europeans and other foreigners had been in North Africa hundreds of years before the advent of photography
And? Your point? For the millionth time...I've never denied non Africans being in North Africa during antiquity. Heck the Phoenicians speak volume to this. So of course you'll see art of non African people in North Africa. Again that is NOT my point. My point is that you DO NOT see white looking Berbers until the 15/16th century. Heck most Berber groups you hear of before those centuries are Tuaregs, Masmuda, Zenata, Sanhaja, Kutama and other non white looking Berber groups.
You NEVER hear mentions of the Kabyle during the Moorish times in historical texts. Never.
And this is also for bling dogg. The proto Berbers were definitely African/black, because the culture/language came from Northeast Africa.
ABSTRACT
The Berber languages are relatively well-studied, and it is possible to explore their geographical extent today and in the past, and also reconstruct basic and culturalvocabulary which can be attributed to speakers of proto-Berber. However, there is a major problem reconciling this with textual and archaeological evidence. The proto-Berber we can reconstruct seems to be far to recent to match what we know from other evidence; indeed it seems to reach back to period as late as 200 AD. Textual evidence (and Canarian inscriptions) point to a period prior to 400 BC, while the most credible archaeological correlate would be the spread of pastoralism across the Sahara, pointing to the period 5-4000 BP. The paper explores this disjunction and suggests the underlying reason for it is massive language levelling in the period after 0 AD. In other words, the original speakers of Berber did indeed spread out westwards from the Nile Valley, 5-4000 years ago, but the diversity which evolved in this period was eliminated by a sociolinguistic processes which levelled divergent speech forms. Historical linguists have been wary of invoking such process until recently, but evidence is mounting for their importance in many and varied cultures, including China, Borneo and Madagascar. Hypotheses are evaluated to explain the Berber situation and it is suggested that a combination of the introduction of the camel and the establishment of the Roman limes were the key factors in creating this linguistic bottleneck. Source: http://www.rogerblench.info/Archaeology/Africa/Berber%20prehistory%202012.pdf Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: [QB] @lioness
Aye...Sorry I took so long top reply. Been busy with kid.
there is no hard proof for anything I've said or you said, Acytually,..Not trying to be cocky. But there is hard proof for what I've said and that the Kabyle are more of a recent Berber tribe.
Again you will never find dozens of early photographs of everyday Kabyle Berbers who hardly fulfill the 'Europoid' dreams of today's observers. They look like everyday Saharans. This should't surprise us given that Berbers, because of their male-mediated migration patterns, are highly heterogeneous.
But more importantly...Lets get to the nitty gritty.
quote:Originally posted by jehosafats
They've been concentrated in areas well known for Vandals, Turks, slaves and Christian renegades. Christian renegades (Spanish, Italian, French, Albanian, etc. who would eventually convert to Islam) and the medieval slave trade had a major impact on places like Tlemcen, Oran, Bejaia (Bougie - Kabyle central) and especially Alger. Jacques Heers argues in "Les barbaresques" (2001, pg 227) at the time of Turkish rule in Algeria, something like 50% of the population in the capital was composed of European-Christian slaves (even Italian slaves by the seventeenth century). Saqalibas from the Balkans were also well represented. Besides, Arab excursions displaced many of the ancestral populations of the Maghreb between the 12th-15th centuries.
Read my first reply...Again I told you this before. Almost all Vandals were EXPELLED by the Romans. People seem to not get this.
The Vandals ruled for 100 years, You talk about Romans kicking them out. Who do you think the Byznatine Romans were? More non-Africans. Who were before both of them in the region? Phoenicians and Greeks, also non-Africans
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: And? Your point? For the millionth time...I've never denied non Africans being in North Africa during antiquity. Heck the Phoenicians speak volume to this. So of course you'll see art of non African people in North Africa. Again that is NOT my point. My point is that you DO NOT see white looking Berbers until the 15/16th century. Heck most Berber groups you hear of before those centuries are Tuaregs, Masmuda, Zenata, Sanhaja, Kutama and other non white looking Berber groups.
^^^ this doesn't make sense you just said
" I've never denied non Africans being in North Africa during antiquity."
"My point is that you DO NOT see white looking Berbers until the 15/16th century. Heck most Berber groups you hear of before those centuries are Tuaregs, Masmuda, Zenata, Sanhaja, Kutama and other non white looking Berber groups."
^^^^ your comment shows your limted knowledge, You didn't mention the Garamantes. You didn't mention any of the Libyans, Libu, Meshwesh etc, that were spoken about over 1800 years earlier.15/16th century isn't "antiquity" Some of the groups you mentioned have lineage that may extend to earlier group with different names, yet the names you used are mostly reference the Islamic period. The Sanhaja for instance are mentioned historically in the 10th century, the confedrated tribes of the Almoravid. The conquest of the Maghreb began around 400 years earlier, conquest of Spain over 300 years earlier
But go back much further referencing berbers BC rather than AD
Simply there were berbers before AD and in the earlier periods they went by differnt names, varying regions
The origin of the name: “Kabyle” is from Arabic. It derived from the Arabic word: “qabaa’il meaning: “tribes”. Initially, the word “Kabyle” was applied to to all Berbers of North Africa. Nowadays, however, it pertains to the Kabyle people, who inhabit the coastal al-Quabail Mountains of northern Algeria.
How recent they are is unknown. In name recent yes.
You have a number of Nort African's people's pictures up. Could they be half or some substancial part non-African, like part Arab or Indian? Yes they could be. So these pictures don't prove anything. This is where genetics becomes necessary.
There are a variety of Yemenis ^^^ look at this Yemeni man for instance.
^^^ this man is Indian
Now if people like this were intermarrying with Sub Saharan Africans the result could be someone dark skinned with African features and straight hair. So just because a person like that might live in Africa and somebody took a photo does not mean they have something close to pure African ancestry. So if we look at the pictures you put up, you or I can't assume what their ancestry is and then make assumptions. In fact some of the people in your photos may have said they were Arabian if asked. If they say they they may or may not be Arabian but it suggest an incrased possbility that they may be in part Arabian.
^^^ This girl is from Tunisia and marked bedouin. Bedouins come from Arabia. She lives in Tunisia. She has straight hair. The fact that she lives in Tunisia and has "African" features. So does sthe fact that she lives in Tunisia mean that she is an example of inidegnous straight hair in Africa? We don't know that. She may very well be part Arab as the photo is indcating "bedouin" and she may also be part African.
Varying Bedouins:
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
@Lioness
You ignored most of my post, but whatever.
The Vandals ruled for 100 years, You talk about Romans kicking them out. Who do you think the Byznatine Romans were? More non-Africans. Who were before both of them in the region? Phoenicians and Greeks, also non-Africans
Okay your point? You only prove my point more with the Byzantines.
In 533 AD, a Byzantine army under Belisarius landed in North Africa and launched a campaign to expel the Vandals and restore Roman rule. On Sept. 13, Belisarius met King Gelimir and his brother Ammatas with their army at the tenth milestone south of Carthage (Ad Decimum). The tide of battle stood against the Byzantines until Ammatas was killed. Gelimir lost his nerve and the Vandal army disintegrated in flight. Belisarius quickly occupied Carthage and within two years had eliminated the last of Gelimir's loyalists, marking the end of the Vandal Kingdom of North Africa in 535 AD.
Note ARMY...
And the Byzantine empire stay in North Africa wasn't even that long or significant.
They were mostly limited to the coastal part(like the Phoenicians and Greeks), but more specifically well established cities like Carthage. But more importantly Northwest Africa as a whole was sparsely populated. Besides Carthage you wouldn't even find any large scale settlements in Northwest Africa.
"My point is that you DO NOT see white looking Berbers until the 15/16th century. Heck most Berber groups you hear of before those centuries are Tuaregs, Masmuda, Zenata, Sanhaja, Kutama and other non white looking Berber groups."
Is having piss poor reading comprehensions your specialty or what?
Again so what...There were non Africans in Northwest Africa. And???? The point is they were NOT BERBER, repeat {B]NOT BERBER[/B]!!!!! And did NOT identify as such. Do you get what I am saying???
1. The Phoenicians were only limited to one settled/developed city in Northwest Africa, while the rest of Northwest Africa was sparsely populated. And even so Carthage had a very high African population as proof as the Numidia Kingdom succeeding from it, which was African btw.
2. Were the sea people Berber or identify as Berber? How large was there population, because during the Garamante civilization which was after the fall of Egypt there is still no mention of white looking Berbers.
3. The Greeks and Romans were only limited to the coastal parts and it was mostly Roman military men stationed there. Again I already been over the Vandals. Not only that in one of Dana's threads she noted that Vandals saw themselves differently from the Natives/Berbers. http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=005309
Again where is proof of the white looking Berbers prior to the 15/16th century?? Where?? Those *BERBER* groups were the MAIN Berber groups mentioned in historical text prior to the 15/16th century and they were all described as looking black. Where are the historical texts describing white looking Kabyles? Where? Enough of the Greeks, Phoenicians, Vandals, Romans and Sea people. We're talking about BERBERS.
The only reason this doesn't make sense to you because YOU choose not to understand things. Again the BULK of the Non Africans in Northwest Africa came during the 15/16th century and that is where we really start to see non African Berbers, because most of the expelled European Muslims became Berberized in North Africa and also European slave trade. Also lets not forget(again) that Northwest Africa was sparsely populated in the first place.
^^^^ your comment shows your limted knowledge, You didn't mention the Garamantes. You didn't mention any of the Libyans, Libu, Meshwesh etc, that were spoken about over 1800 years earlier.15/16th century isn't "antiquity" Some of the groups you mentioned have lineage that may extend to earlier group with different names, yet the names you used are mostly reference the Islamic period. The Sanhaja for instance are mentioned historically in the 10th century, the confedrated tribes of the Almoravid. The conquest of the Maghreb began around 400 years earlier, conquest of Spain over 300 years earlier
But go back much further referencing berbers BC rather than AD
No the only person here who is showing limited knewledge is you. The Garamantes were an Ancient civilizations. Your point? Libyans was a general term which refereed to people of Ancient Libya. Not only that the Greeks refereed to all of Africa as Libya at one point.
I already KNOW the conquest of the Maghreb and Spain began earlier. But here the thing why don't you(again) show me historical text that mentions white looking Berbers during that time. I mean if there was white looking Berbers in antiquity, then there sure would have been some during the Moorish period. Most Berbers were nomadic people at the time and most didn't even leave on the coastal part, but all the way in places like Awdaghust, the southernmost terminal of the trans-Saharan trade, first controlled by the Sudanese - likely the kingdom of Ghana, and then by the Almoravid empire. I believe Dana mentioned this. But anyways the Masmuda Berbers made up the overwhelming majority of the Fatimid empire's infantry. Also the Katuma Berbers from Algeria/Niger, were by far the empire's most influential administrators. Both groups were described as black. Again where are the historical texts of white looking Berber groups like the Kabyle??? If there were non African BERBERS since antiquity.
Simply there were berbers before that and in the earlier periods they went by differnt names Your point?
Where are the historical text of non African/black Berbers prior to the 15/16th century?
The origin of the name: “Kabyle” is from Arabic. It derived from the Arabic word: “qabaa’il meaning: “tribes”. Initially, the word “Kabyle” was applied to to all Berbers of North Africa. Nowadays, however, it pertains to the Kabyle people, who inhabit the coastal al-Quabail Mountains of northern Algeria.
I never heard of it being applied to *all* Berbers.
How recent they are is unknown
Doesn't this tell it all???
Kabyle
Girl from Balkans
Again 50% of the population in the capital of Algeria was composed of European-Christian slaves. I doubt Berbers dressed like modern Kabyle. They most likely dressed something like this!
HA!
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Son of Ra: [QB] @lioness
You have a number of Nort African's people's pictures up. Could they be half or some substancial part non-African, like part Arab or Indian? Yes they could be. So these pictures don't prove anything. This is where genetics becomes necessary.
There are a variety of Yemenis ^^^ look at this Yemeni man for instance.
^^^ this man is Indian
Now if people like this were intermarrying with Sub Saharan Africans the result could be someone dark skinned with African features and straight hair. So just because a person like that might live in Africa and somebody took a photo does not mean they have something close to pure African ancestry. So if we look at the pictures you put up, you or I can't assume what their ancestry is and then make assumptions
lol...Back tracking. Pure backtracking. You specifically ask do North Africans have hair like that Berber women you posted and along that you also stated can it be due to them living in Higher Latitube, now that it doesn't fit your argument, you question their ancestry. There is no such thing as pure African ancestry. that is pseudo science nonsense. Just like there is no such thing as pure European ancestry or pure West/South Asian ancestry.
Sorry but this has nothing to do with genetics. Yeah we dont know their ancestry but the point was do people in North Africa have that hair type which I pointed out they do, but also if hair like that is native.
Alleged massive influx of Europeans and Middle Easterners to give the ancient peoples hair variation did not happen. Such variation was already in place as part of Africa' built in genetic and phenotypic diversity. As regards diameter, the average diameter of the Semna sample was close to both the Northwest European and East African samples. This again suggests a range of built-in African indigenous variability, and calls into questions various migration theories to the Nile Valley. One study for example (Keita 2005) tested the model of C. Loring Brace (1993) as to the notion of incoming European migrants replacing indigenous peoples of the Nile Valley. Brace's work had also suggested a relationship between northwest Europeans such as Scandanavians and African peoples of the Horn. Data analysis failed to support this model, instead clustering samples much closer to African series than to Europeans. Keita concluded that similarities between African data in his survey (skulls, etc) and non-Africans was not due to gene flow, but a subset of built-in African variability.
Ancient Egyptians cluster much closer to other Egyptians and Nubians. A later study by Brace, (Brace 2005- The questionable contribution..) groups ancient Egyptian populations like the Naqada closer to Nubians and Somalis than European, Mediterranean or Middle Eastern populations, and places various Nubians samples closer to Tanzanian, Dahomeian, and Congoid data points than to Europeans and Middle easterners. The limb proportion studies of Zakrzewski (2003) (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.) showing the tropical body plan of the ancient Egyptians also undercuts theories of inflowing European or near Eastern colonists, or the 'native Europid' model of Strouhal (1971).
Is this African female hair due to her ancestors mixing with non Africans?
HA!
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Is having piss poor reading comprehensions your specialty or what?
Again so what...There were non Africans in Northwest Africa. And???? The point is they were NOT BERBER, repeat NOT BERBER!!!!! And did NOT identify as such. Do you get what I am saying???
Disagreement doesn't mean lack of reading comprehension it means you are wrong Do you realize that historically none of the groups you mentioned Tuaregs, Masmuda, Zenata, Sanhaja, Kutama self idenified as "berber" Do you realize that The term Berber is a variation of from Greek barbaros "barbarians" also applied by Romans specifically to their northern hostile neighbors from Germania (modern Germany) and Celts, Iberians, Gauls, Goths and Thracians. Arabs first began appling the term "berber" to non Arabic speaking, non Muslim people of Africa. Even today many of these people prefer not ot be called berber although many people today may not intend it negatively. So you deciding who is "BERBER" and who is "NOT BERBER": is pure bull. It's vague term, like Moor, applied by outsiders rather than the people themsleves, applied with varying meanings in different time periods
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
1. The Phoenicians were only limited to one settled/developed city in Northwest Africa,
that's ignorant, look up Utica and Leptis Magna, find out their population estimates, then report back Carthage had as many as a half million people at it's height. Compare this to estimates of the size of as you said "sparce" nomadic populaltions estimations with no record
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
even so Carthage had a very high African population as proof as the Numidia Kingdom succeeding from it, which was African btw.
Look up "Numidian coins" in google images, look at several pages, then stop the foolishness. Numidians are not the same "Moors" as Sanhaja who were confderated by Almoravids many hundreds of years later.
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
3. The Greeks and Romans were only limited to the coastal parts and it was mostly Roman military men stationed there. Again I already been over the Vandals. Not only that in one of Dana's threads she noted that Vandals saw themselves differently from the Natives/Berbers. http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=005309
After the green period, as today over 90% of the population live in the coastal areas. You don't understand the nature of "berber" at all. They are speakers of the berber language and comprised of a wide variety of ethnicities. They have been a mixed group since antiquity And notion of "real berbers" and "fake berbers" is racist. Many call themsleves Imazighen. It's a culture like Islam
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Again where is proof of the white looking Berbers prior to the 15/16th century?? Where?? Those *BERBER* groups were the MAIN Berber groups mentioned in historical text prior to the 15/16th century and they were all described as looking black. Where are the historical texts describing white looking Kabyles? Where? Enough of the Greeks, Phoenicians, Vandals, Romans and Sea people. We're talking about BERBERS.
People who are not African might be brown. As for paler complexions Tukular already schooled your ass they are attested to by the Egyptians and Greeks
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Most Berbers were nomadic people at the time and most didn't even leave on the coastal part, but all the way in places like Awdaghust, the southernmost terminal of the trans-Saharan trade, first controlled by the Sudanese - likely the kingdom of Ghana, and then by the Almoravid empire. I believe Dana mentioned this. But anyways the Masmuda Berbers made up the overwhelming majority of the Fatimid empire's infantry. Also the Katuma Berbers from Algeria/Niger, were by far the empire's most influential administrators.
The Almoravids were started by Muslim fanatics, who came from Morocco and went south and converted Sanhaja people to Islam Almoravids are 10th century, I keep schooling your ass the Almoravids and the tribes they converted came after earlier berbers, not only of the Islamic period but prior.
The western Sanhaja had been converted to Islam some time in the 9th century. They were subsequently united in the 10th century and, the fanatic converts, launched several campaigns against the "Sudanese" ("pagan" black peoples of sub-Saharan Africa). Under their king Tinbarutan ibn Usfayshar, the Sanhaja Lamtuna erected (or captured) the citadel of Awdaghust, a critical stop on the trans-Saharan trade route.
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Again 50% of the population in the capital of Algeria was composed of European-Christian slaves.
you're ripping off historum.com again, not veryifying a paragraph from the original source to see if it checks out I question this figure. This is the difference between you and me. I go to the books if I can and see if somebody in a forum is making proper reference or they are spinning something. You simply rip off the forum remark. Don't forget this was controlled by the Ottomans on the one hand and the Moors on the other, and they were also trading black African slaves.
But for argument sake let's look at "50% of the population in the capital of Algeria was composed of European-Christian slaves"
As I said they were already a mixed population as per Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Vandals, Arabs, Turks, Sahrans, Sub Saharans.
If you add even more " 50% of the population in the capital of Algeria was composed of European-Christian slaves" The result is probably that modern Algeria could be less African than non African. But as I have been saying this concept of "berber purity" is bull. "Berber" has been a mixed population for centuries
It's a culture not a race, bottom line
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor: For the LOVE of GOD,
Sad sad sad....
I will "try" to explain it to you once more.
The Kabyle are a sub ethnic group amongst the Tamazight. (Sub-Tamazight). Who came into existence not so long ago, like 3000 years ago.(987 BC Algeria).
The ancient Tamazight came from the South, as was shown countless of times by archeological and anthropological studies.
"Sub ethnic group" is not porper terminology. They are a Tamazight group not a sub Tamazight group
show one article that says the berbers came from the South, Show me that in one sentence from an article
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
Algeria is in the Magreb, for your information.
yes and I have been pointing that out to you from the start, it.s not Gobero
and Iberomaurusian had been in the coastal Maghreb for 9,000 or more years
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
The demographic of population was then shifted due to invasions. And as I mentioned only yesterday. The Kabyle in itself are a young ethnic group. Which I luckily was able to show off today, with a sources by Dr. Dahmane At Ali. Since you didn't believe my words yesterday. As I described it with my own words.
I did all the heavy lifting I this thread, you just sat on that lazy ass. While I did all the hard work.
btw Dahmane MAZED is a nuclear engineer, political writer not an anthropologist or historian although that does not necessarily make him wrong, his doctorate is irrelevant to the topic
You are too dumb to understand what these studies say. That's the problem here.
But I will simplify it for you:
Tamazight = Berber. There are many Tamazight groups.
The Holocene, mid-Holocene population from Gobero was at the buildup of the Magreb. This is why anthropology clusters them together.
These ancient people from Iberomaurusian eventually came from the South. These people on their turn eventually came from the Eastern part of Africa.
quote:
*Sahara during the Holocene ( approximately 8000 B.C.E. to the present). Called Gobero
*early Holocene occupants at Gobero (7700-6200 B.C.E.)
*mid-Holocene (5200-2500 B.C.E.)
[...]
Gobero with a skeletally robust, trans-Saharan assemblage of Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene human populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.
quote:
*Mali *EMI, eastern Maghreb Iberomaurusian *WMI, western Maghreb Iberomaurusian. *Gob-e, Gobero early Holocene.
The older occupants have craniofacial dimensions that demonstrate similarities with mid-Holocene occupants of the southern Sahara and Late Pleistocene to early Holocene inhabitants of the Maghreb.
Now, Dr. Dahmane At Ali's statement be found in general publications as well. He would not dear make such stamens on the source, on where he did this, if it wasn't based on historical facts.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
Disagreement doesn't mean lack of reading comprehension it means you are wrong Do you realize that historically none of the groups you mentioned Tuaregs, Masmuda, Zenata, Sanhaja, Kutama self idenified as "berber" Do you realize that The term Berber is a variation of from Greek barbaros "barbarians" also applied by Romans specifically to their northern hostile neighbors from Germania (modern Germany) and Celts, Iberians, Gauls, Goths and Thracians. Arabs first began appling the term "berber" to non Arabic speaking, non Muslim people of Africa. Even today many of these people prefer not ot be called berber although many people today may not intend it negatively. So you deciding who is "BERBER" and who is "NOT BERBER": is pure bull. It's vague term, like Moor, applied by outsiders rather than the people themsleves, applied with varying meanings in different time periods
What??? Just because the term Berber may be recent does not mean the language that BINDS them together isn't.
So still haven't shown me historical text of white looking Berbers during the Moorish times, which is our main argument. Stop diverting.
that's ignorant, look up Utica and Leptis Magna, find out their population estimates, then report back Carthage had as many as a half million people at it's height. Compare this to estimates of the size of as you said "sparce" nomadic populaltions estimations with no record
Okay and??? Both Utica and Leptis Magna were in the same area as Carthage. And before the Romans Leptis Magna was just a town. Again there were no huge settlements in Northwest Africa(specifically Morocco/Algeria) besides the area of Carthage.
Look up "Numidian coins" in google images, look at several pages, then stop the foolishness. Numidians are not the same "Moors" as Sanhaja who were confderated by Almoravids many hundreds of years later.
After the green period, as today over 90% of the population live in the coastal areas. You don't understand the nature of "berber" at all. They are speakers of the berber language and comprised of a wide variety of ethnicities. They have been a mixed group since antiquity And notion of "real berbers" and "fake berbers" is racist. Many call themsleves Imazighen. It's a culture like Islam
Who the heck said there were any fake or real Berbers? Stop diverting. Again most of Northwest Africa was sparsely populated minus the area of Carthage. Again show me historical texts of white looking Berbers. I'm waiting(again).
People who are not African might be brown. As for paler complexions Tukular already schooled your ass they are attested to by the Egyptians and Greeks
lol...Where did Tukular school me? I can see you're getting more and more aggressive as this debate goes on. But thats not the important matter. Again where are the historic text of white looking Berber prior to the 15.16th century? I'm waiting(again).
The Almoravids were started by Muslim fanatics, who came from Morocco and went south and converted Sanhaja people to Islam Almoravids are 10th century, I keep schooling your ass the Almoravids and the tribes they converted came after earlier berbers, not only of the Islamic period but prior.
lol! Funny character.
Schooled my as in what. Your getting more and more desperate. The damn Almoravids came from the south! Not freaking Morocco. Specifically the Senegal river area where the migrated NORTH. Not south...
Oh my this should be fun. No sh*t the Almoravid came later. But the early Berbers who occupied Iberia prior to the Almoravid's were the same ones that were the three major Berber groups of the Almoravids which were the Zenata, Masmuda(majority), Sanhaja.
The western Sanhaja had been converted to Islam some time in the 9th century. They were subsequently united in the 10th century and, the fanatic converts, launched several campaigns against the "Sudanese" ("pagan" black peoples of sub-Saharan Africa). Under their king Tinbarutan ibn Usfayshar, the Sanhaja Lamtuna erected (or captured) the citadel of Awdaghust, a critical stop on the trans-Saharan trade route.
Are you talking about the Almoravid conquest of Ghana? If so that conquest has proven to be a myth.
you're ripping off historum.com again, not veryifying a paragraph from the original source to see if it checks out I question this figure. This is the difference between you and me. I go to the books if I can and see if somebody in a forum is making proper reference or they are spinning something.
Who gives a flying sh*t. I see sources that are interesting and so I use/repeat them. This is the internet...People on different sites rip off info from here from Topix, Forumbiodiversity, zetaboards, historum,etc. Not only that but I speak to jehosafats all the time and he always PM's me about the Moors/Berbers. So again who gives.
Don't forget this was controlled by the Ottomans on the one hand and the Moors on the other, and they were also trading black African slaves. lol
This is hilarious when most of the slaves by the Turks were European Christian/Pagan slaves at that time and most of the imported slaves to North Africa were European of European descent.
But for argument sake let's look at "50% of the population in the capital of Algeria was composed of European-Christian slaves"
As I said they were already a mixed population as per Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Vandals, Arabs, Turks, Sahrans, Sub Saharans.
If you add even more " 50% of the population in the capital of Algeria was composed of European-Christian slaves" The result is probably that modern Algeria could be less African than non African. But as I have been saying this concept of "berber purity" is bull. "Berber" has been a mixed population for centuries
What point of Northwest Africa was sparsely populated besides the Carthage area don't you get? And Algeria specially was sparsely populated, so was Morocco.
And I had asked you to post me historical texts of those white looking Berbers during the Moorish period which you STILL have not done. If Berbers were already mixed by the times of the Greeks and there were white Berber tribes then why are there no mention of them.
And stop with the projection. No one mentioned no pure Berber anything or said Berber was a Berber. The point/FACT is the original Berbers were African that came from Northeast Africa, since that is where the language is from.
ABSTRACT
The Berber languages are relatively well-studied, and it is possible to explore their geographical extent today and in the past, and also reconstruct basic and culturalvocabulary which can be attributed to speakers of proto-Berber. However, there is a major problem reconciling this with textual and archaeological evidence. The proto-Berber we can reconstruct seems to be far to recent to match what we know from other evidence; indeed it seems to reach back to period as late as 200 AD. Textual evidence (and Canarian inscriptions) point to a period prior to 400 BC, while the most credible archaeological correlate would be the spread of pastoralism across the Sahara, pointing to the period 5-4000 BP. The paper explores this disjunction and suggests the underlying reason for it is massive language levelling in the period after 0 AD. In other words, the original speakers of Berber did indeed spread out westwards from the Nile Valley, 5-4000 years ago, but the diversity which evolved in this period was eliminated by a sociolinguistic processes which levelled divergent speech forms. Historical linguists have been wary of invoking such process until recently, but evidence is mounting for their importance in many and varied cultures, including China, Borneo and Madagascar. Hypotheses are evaluated to explain the Berber situation and it is suggested that a combination of the introduction of the camel and the establishment of the Roman limes were the key factors in creating this linguistic bottleneck. Source: http://www.rogerblench.info/Archaeology/Africa/Berber%20prehistory%202012.pdf
You're just getting angry that you can't provide historical text of white looking Berbers prior to the 15/16th century which seems to anger you. Seriously...What is your agenda Lioness?
Doesn't this make sense?
Kabyle
Girl from Balkans
Notice how my argument has not really changed...
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
You don't know how Islam spread into North Africa. It didn't start with the Almoravids, look into it
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: You don't know how Islam spread into North Africa. It didn't start with the Almoravids, look into it
Islam spread into Africa, from Northeast Africa (Southern part) sub-Sahara, Horn. Most likely following the route, Northeast to Northwest. From Northwest to the Northwest South and down. With populations from Northern Sahara introducing Islam to middle Sahara, from there to Southern Sahara, to the Sahel, to "sub-Sahara".
Oldest Arab astonishment are from Yemen, Saudi Arabia. Later once stem from other regions from the Arabian Peninsula, entering the Northern part of Africa.
That's it in a nutshell.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
And stop with the projection. No one mentioned no pure Berber anything or said Berber was a Berber. The point/FACT is the original Berbers were African that came from Northeast Africa, since that is where the language is from.
ABSTRACT
The Berber languages are relatively well-studied, and it is possible to explore their geographical extent today and in the past, and also reconstruct basic and culturalvocabulary which can be attributed to speakers of proto-Berber. However, there is a major problem reconciling this with textual and archaeological evidence. The proto-Berber we can reconstruct seems to be far to recent to match what we know from other evidence; indeed it seems to reach back to period as late as 200 AD. Textual evidence (and Canarian inscriptions) point to a period prior to 400 BC, while the most credible archaeological correlate would be the spread of pastoralism across the Sahara, pointing to the period 5-4000 BP. The paper explores this disjunction and suggests the underlying reason for it is massive language levelling in the period after 0 AD. In other words, the original speakers of Berber did indeed spread out westwards from the Nile Valley, 5-4000 years ago, but the diversity which evolved in this period was eliminated by a sociolinguistic processes which levelled divergent speech forms. Historical linguists have been wary of invoking such process until recently, but evidence is mounting for their importance in many and varied cultures, including China, Borneo and Madagascar. Hypotheses are evaluated to explain the Berber situation and it is suggested that a combination of the introduction of the camel and the establishment of the Roman limes were the key factors in creating this linguistic bottleneck. Source: http://www.rogerblench.info/Archaeology/Africa/Berber%20prehistory%202012.pdf
This is indeed in accordance with the genetic and anthropological studies.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Disagreement doesn't mean lack of reading comprehension it means you are wrong Do you realize that historically none of the groups you mentioned Tuaregs, Masmuda, Zenata, Sanhaja, Kutama self idenified as "berber" Do you realize that The term Berber is a variation of from Greek barbaros "barbarians" also applied by Romans specifically to their northern hostile neighbors from Germania (modern Germany) and Celts, Iberians, Gauls, Goths and Thracians. Arabs first began appling the term "berber" to non Arabic speaking, non Muslim people of Africa. Even today many of these people prefer not ot be called berber although many people today may not intend it negatively. So you deciding who is "BERBER" and who is "NOT BERBER": is pure bull. It's vague term, like Moor, applied by outsiders rather than the people themsleves, applied with varying meanings in different time periods
What??? Just because the term Berber may be recent does not mean the language that BINDS them together isn't.
So still haven't shown me historical text of white looking Berbers during the Moorish times, which is our main argument. Stop diverting.
that's ignorant, look up Utica and Leptis Magna, find out their population estimates, then report back Carthage had as many as a half million people at it's height. Compare this to estimates of the size of as you said "sparce" nomadic populaltions estimations with no record
Okay and??? Both Utica and Leptis Magna were in the same area as Carthage. And before the Romans Leptis Magna was just a town. Again there were no huge settlements in Northwest Africa(specifically Morocco/Algeria) besides the area of Carthage.
Look up "Numidian coins" in google images, look at several pages, then stop the foolishness. Numidians are not the same "Moors" as Sanhaja who were confderated by Almoravids many hundreds of years later.
After the green period, as today over 90% of the population live in the coastal areas. You don't understand the nature of "berber" at all. They are speakers of the berber language and comprised of a wide variety of ethnicities. They have been a mixed group since antiquity And notion of "real berbers" and "fake berbers" is racist. Many call themsleves Imazighen. It's a culture like Islam
Who the heck said there were any fake or real Berbers? Stop diverting. Again most of Northwest Africa was sparsely populated minus the area of Carthage. Again show me historical texts of white looking Berbers. I'm waiting(again).
People who are not African might be brown. As for paler complexions Tukular already schooled your ass they are attested to by the Egyptians and Greeks
lol...Where did Tukular school me? I can see you're getting more and more aggressive as this debate goes on. But thats not the important matter. Again where are the historic text of white looking Berber prior to the 15.16th century? I'm waiting(again).
The Almoravids were started by Muslim fanatics, who came from Morocco and went south and converted Sanhaja people to Islam Almoravids are 10th century, I keep schooling your ass the Almoravids and the tribes they converted came after earlier berbers, not only of the Islamic period but prior.
lol! Funny character.
Schooled my as in what. Your getting more and more desperate. The damn Almoravids came from the south! Not freaking Morocco. Specifically the Senegal river area where the migrated NORTH. Not south...
Oh my this should be fun. No sh*t the Almoravid came later. But the early Berbers who occupied Iberia prior to the Almoravid's were the same ones that were the three major Berber groups of the Almoravids which were the Zenata, Masmuda(majority), Sanhaja.
The western Sanhaja had been converted to Islam some time in the 9th century. They were subsequently united in the 10th century and, the fanatic converts, launched several campaigns against the "Sudanese" ("pagan" black peoples of sub-Saharan Africa). Under their king Tinbarutan ibn Usfayshar, the Sanhaja Lamtuna erected (or captured) the citadel of Awdaghust, a critical stop on the trans-Saharan trade route.
Are you talking about the Almoravid conquest of Ghana? If so that conquest has proven to be a myth.
you're ripping off historum.com again, not veryifying a paragraph from the original source to see if it checks out I question this figure. This is the difference between you and me. I go to the books if I can and see if somebody in a forum is making proper reference or they are spinning something.
Who gives a flying sh*t. I see sources that are interesting and so I use/repeat them. This is the internet...People on different sites rip off info from here from Topix, Forumbiodiversity, zetaboards, historum,etc. Not only that but I speak to jehosafats all the time and he always PM's me about the Moors/Berbers. So again who gives.
Don't forget this was controlled by the Ottomans on the one hand and the Moors on the other, and they were also trading black African slaves. lol
This is hilarious when most of the slaves by the Turks were European Christian/Pagan slaves at that time and most of the imported slaves to North Africa were European of European descent.
But for argument sake let's look at "50% of the population in the capital of Algeria was composed of European-Christian slaves"
As I said they were already a mixed population as per Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Vandals, Arabs, Turks, Sahrans, Sub Saharans.
If you add even more " 50% of the population in the capital of Algeria was composed of European-Christian slaves" The result is probably that modern Algeria could be less African than non African. But as I have been saying this concept of "berber purity" is bull. "Berber" has been a mixed population for centuries
What point of Northwest Africa was sparsely populated besides the Carthage area don't you get? And Algeria specially was sparsely populated, so was Morocco.
And I had asked you to post me historical texts of those white looking Berbers during the Moorish period which you STILL have not done. If Berbers were already mixed by the times of the Greeks and there were white Berber tribes then why are there no mention of them.
And stop with the projection. No one mentioned no pure Berber anything or said Berber was a Berber. The point/FACT is the original Berbers were African that came from Northeast Africa, since that is where the language is from.
You're just getting angry that you can't provide historical text of white looking Berbers prior to the 15/16th century which seems to anger you. Seriously...What is your agenda Lioness?
Doesn't this make sense?
Kabyle
Girl from Balkans
Notice how my argument has not really changed...
Of course the remaining of the arguments are incredible as well.
Etc...
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Troll Patroll what is wrong with you, you are disrupting the thread by quote Son of Ra's entire post on the same page only to make a one sentece remark at the end. I should start doing this type of repetative stuff in your thread
Cant I have a converstaion with Son of Ra without you jumping in? __________________________________________
^^^^Son of Ra I didn't post this, do we know if both parents of this girl claim to be deep rooted Kabyle?
I didn't post this picture deal with the pictures I have posted, not the straw man
deal with the pictures I posted, not going to the whitest looking Kabyles you can find and trying to polarize the issue. The girl could even be half French for all you know, out there supporting her Kabyle mom or something
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
And before the Romans Leptis Magna was just a town. Again there were no huge settlements in Northwest Africa (specifically Morocco/Algeria) besides the area of Carthage.
therefore at that point in time there would have been mainly Phoenicians who had come from the Lebanon region, Greeks later and Romans, correct ?
They later blended into later occupations, hundreds of years later, Vandals, then a lot of Arabs, also Ottoman Turks and Europeans
As far as deep rooted Africans in the region at the time of the Phoenicians, Greeks and Romans, this period beginning around 800 BC there is very little accounting for them. Do you have an estimates of the numbers of indigenous people at this time? No, no one does, try looking it up in a book instead of parroting other posters and forums, demographics of the Maghreb 1000 BC - 500 AD. Look for anything within that time period. In google images look at the Numidan coins. Look at the Mauretanian coins. Look athhe carthage coins. Not the cherry picked ones on some website with a politcal agenda, look at the coin collecting sites wher they dont care about that, its about collecting value Then find a primary source describing the Numidians specifically
If indigenous people were in the region there they were probably very sparse tribes of nomads, relative to the incoming foreigners they may have been much less in number. To say they were greater in number at the time of Carthage you need evidence. Look at the Carthage coins. Some were minted in Utica. Do they look like Fulanis or Igbos? All of these coins, Numidia, Mauretania, Cathage, most of the people by far look mostly Greco-Roman
If you have quotes by people like Herodotus calling Libyans indigenous tribes 450 years later in 450 BC it is not clear how indigenous they were. At this point they could have been a combination of all the people I have mentioned and add some indigenous Maghreb people, as well as Sub Saharan Africans.
In the Maghreb 1000 BC - 500 AD. The idea that there were large numbers of indigenous North African people were around has little anthropological evidence to support it. name a single such indigenous settlement in this period.
And if you take it back a little further in the Maghreb say 3000 BC-1000 BC there is even less evidence that any of the old hunter gathers of the green period had remained.
So all these people called berber speakers in the Maghreb today may have been mixed from the start. Why did these settlements that later developed into carthage spring up? Not because people wanted to live there in the harsh lands. It's because they were traders from across the Mediterranean who were using it as a trading post.
quote:Originally posted by AlTakruri:
See the Libyans on the upper right? This is an illustration based on a tomb painting. There are some depictions of Libyans as brown skinned and in some Egyptians art there are other depictions of Libyans with light skinned.
I could post one but whatever I post you will say the paint is faded. That's bull but you will do this reflexively, knee jerk reaction because you have decided you know something and nothing can change it (similar to Cloyed on Olmecs)
The Egyptians in fact painted some Libyans sometimes as lighter than Syrians and as wee can see on a relative basis in many book of Gates scenes noticeably lighter than the Egyptians. This is a fact to deal with. This does not mean they looked like the girl you posted at the top and looked Central European. It means for whatever reason some of the Libyans are sometimes portrayed as quite light skinned sometimes with a yellowish cast. It has been attested to by many Egyptologists.
See that illustration? Do you really think it's faked and the Libyans in some of these Book of Gates scenes as well as being defeated in battle scenes in the tombs were painted the same tone as the Egyptians and portraying them lighter is a modern day hoax? It's not a hoax, stop the nonsense. Some of this is 12th century BC. The facial features and beards on some of these Libyans don't look entirely indigenous African either, straight long hair hanging down over their shoulders as well. They look like a people possibly mixed with Asiatic types or even primarily Asiatic, brown and pale Asiatic who had migrated to Africa ^^^ Look at this woman. She is fairly light and has straight hair, she's a berber. She may not be related to ancient Libyans or Europeans and while not a pale as your average German, swarthy Southern Europeans can easily have this skin tone and this skin tone is noticeably lighter than the average ancient Egyptian art reddish brown skin tone.
The point is they call the berber script Libyco-Berber. "Berbers" is an imprecise term. These ancient Libyans in the Egyptians art are considered predecessors of some of the modern day berbers. Little is known about them but it is probable that in these times all the way back in 12th c BC they were a people comprised of indigenous and non indigenous to Africa people, some who had light skin.
You have to realize that people that push the idea that there were no lighter skinned Libyans around that period and that they could not have had a significant foreign component is a political idea. It's a political agenda certain people have to make you think it's "Eurocentic" to have such a view. And it's tied in with Islam
And it doesn't even correspond with Diop's view , the most prominent name associated with Afrocentricity
^^^ See this? It's the remains of Leptis Magna is one of the only completely preserved Roman cities in the world. At the time of Julius Caesar, Leptis Magna population was around 100.000 people.
This is what you are calling "just a town"
Simply, name an indigenous Magrheb settlement at the time, How about just of 300 people? Can you name one?
Well what happened to this Phoenican and Roman ancestry? The Arabs
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^ look at where Numidia 202-46 BC is Look at where old Mauretania is
Sometimes historians call them "Moors" or berbers, The region at that time ended in it's Western border at Northern Morocco. Client states of the Romans
__________________________________
600 years later, Islam
The Umayyad dynasty 661-750 AD
^^^ see this? This is the spread of Islam before the Almoravid
Almoravid 1040-1147 AD
You can see that with the Almoravid Islam penetrated further South later as far as the Senegal river. The western Sanhaja had been converted to Islam some time in the 9th century and were part of the Almoravid dynatsy As Almorvid jihadists they were converting darker people in these more Southern extensions along the coast and into West Africa. All of these people intermarried, berbers, Arabs and formerly animist Africans became known as "Moors" a loose imprecise people.
nevermind naything I have said. Look at each map, the maps and the time periods tells it all. As we can clealry see who was called "Moor" by some in Numidians times does not include a lot of the terrritory of who got called "Moor" by the time of the Sanhaja conversions.
The Sudan is the name given to a geographic region to the south of the Sahara, stretching from Western to Eastern Africa. The name derives from the Arabic bilād as-sūdān) or "land of the Blacks" (an expression denoting West and Northern-Central Africa The phrase "The Sudan" is also used to refer specifically to the modern-day country of Sudan, the western part of which forms part of the larger region, and from which South Sudan gained its independence in 2011.
This is sequence of which the Islamic empire spread
_______________________________________
In the mid-11th century, a group of Sanhaja chieftains returning from the Hajj invited the theologian ibn Yassin to preach among their tribes. Ibn Yasin united the tribes in the alliance of the Almoravids in the middle of the 11th century.
Abdallah ibn Yasin was from the tribe of the Jazulah (pronounced Guezula), a Sanhaja sub-tribe from the Sous. He was a Maliki theologian, he was a disciple of Waggag ibn Zallu al-Lamti and studied in his Ribat, "Dar al-Murabitin" which was located in the village of Aglu, (near present-day Tiznit). In 1046 the Gudala chief Yahya Ibn Ibrahim, came to the Ribat asking for someone to promulgate Islmaic religious teachings amongst the Berber of the Adrar (present-day Mauritania) and Waggag ibn Zallu chose to send Abdallah ibn Yasin with him. The Sanhaja were at this stage only superficially Islamicised and still clung to many heathen practices, and so Ibn Yasin preached to them an orthodox Sunnism.
After a revolt of the Gudala he was forced to withdraw with his followers. In alliance with Yahya ibn Umar, the leader of the Lamtuna tribe, he managed to quell the rebellion.
Ibn Yasin now formed the Almoravid alliance from the tribes of the Lamtuna, the Masufa and the Gudala, with himself as spiritual leader and Yahya ibn Umar taking the military command. In 1054 the Maghrawa-ruled Sijilmasa was conquered. Ibn Yasin introduced his orthodox rule - amongst other things wine and music were forbidden, non-Islamic taxes were abolished and one fifth of the spoils of war were allocated to the religious experts. This rigorous application of Islam soon provoked a revolt in 1055
__________________________________________
Basically look at the shift in territory, the span of time
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
at the plagiarizing pseudo babble above.
Remember how the lion ass, claimed to talk about Algerians solely. Why then this sudden shift to Libya, by this clown?
Anyway,...the actual and factual.
Relief block with the heads of three Libyans
quote: "The sidelocks of the people on this relief block identify the men as Libyans. They need not be prisoners but could be members of the Egyptian army or envoys at a festival. As usual with sandstone relief pieces the block was part of a temple decoration at Karnak."
quote:For years, Italian Anthropologist Fabrizio Mori has been trekking into the Libyan Desert to look for graffiti, ancient inscriptions on rocks. Near the oasis of Ghat, 500 miles south of the Mediterranean coast, he found on his last expedition a shallow cave with many graffiti scratched on its walls. When he dug into the sandy floor, he found a peculiar bundle: a goatskin wrapped around the desiccated body of a child. The entrails had been removed and replaced by a bundle of herbs.
Such deliberate mummification was practiced chiefly by the ancient Egyptians. But when Dr. Mori took the mummy back to Italy and had its age measured by the carbon 14 method, it proved to be 5,400 years old—considerably older than the oldest known civilization in the valley of the Nile 900 miles to the east.
The discovery suggested a clue to one of the great puzzles of Egyptology: Where was the birthplace of Egyptian culture? Although many authorities believe it is the world's oldest, they have been perplexed by the fact that it did not develop gradually in the Nile Valley. About 3200 B.C. the First Dynasty appeared there suddenly and full grown, with an elaborate religion, laws, arts and crafts, and a system of writing. Until that time the Nile Valley was apparently inhabited by neolithic people on a low cultural level. Dr. Mori's mummy provides support for the theory that Egyptian culture grew by slow stages in the Sahara, which was not then a desert. When the climate grew insupportably dry, the already civilized Egyptians took refuge in the Nile Valley, and the sands of the Sahara swept over their former home.
The mummy does not prove that there is a civilization buried in the Sahara but it does mean that, in the next few years, the desert will be swarming with anthropologists looking for one.
quote: The Middle Holocene, and more precisely the period from around 6400 BP and 5000 BP, was a period of profound environmental change, during which the global climate underwent a systematic reorganisation as the warm, humid post-glacial climate of the Early Holocene gave way to a climatic configuration broadly similar to that of today (Brooks, 2010; Mayewski et al., 2004). The most prominent manifestations of this transition were a cooling at middle and high latitudes and high altitudes (Thompson et al., 2006), a transition from relatively humid to arid conditions in the NHST (Brooks, 2006, 2010; deMenocal et al., 2000) and the establishment of a regular El Niño after a multimillennial period during which is was rare or absent (Sandweiss et al., 2007).
This “Middle Holocene Climatic Transition” (MHCT) represented a stepwise acceleration of climatic trends that had commenced in the 9th millennium BP in some regions (Jung et al., 2004), and entailed a long-term shift towards cooler and more arid conditions, punctuated by episodes of abrupt climatic change. Around 6400–6300 BP, palaeo-environmental evidence indicates abrupt lake recessions and increased aridity in northern Africa, western Asia, South Asia and northern China, and the advance of glaciers in Europe and elsewhere (Damnati, 2000; Enzel et al., 1999; Jung et al., 2004; Linstädter & Kröpelin, 2004; Mayewski et al., 2004; Zhang et al., 2000).
Ocean records suggest a cold-arid episode around 5900 BP (Bond et al., 1997), followed in the Sahara by an abrupt shift to aridity around 5800–5700 BP, evident in terrestrial records from the Libyan central Sahara and marine records from the Eastern Tropical Atlantic (Cremaschi, 2002; di Lernia, 2002; deMenocal et al., 2000). From about 5800–5700 BP to 5200–5000 BP, aridification intensified in the Sahara (deMenocal et al., 2000), South Asia (Enzel et al., 1999), north-central China (Zhang et al., 2000; Xiao et al., 2004) and the Arabian Peninsula (Parker et al., 2006). Over the same period, drought conditions prevailed in the Eastern Mediterranean (Bar-Matthews & Ayalon, 2011), the Zagros Mountains of Iran (Stevens et al., 2006) and County Mayo in Ireland (Caseldine et al., 2005), while river flow into the Cariaco Basin of northern South America decreased (Haug et al., 2001). An abrupt cold-arid episode around 5200 BP is evident in environmental records from Europe, Africa, western Asia, China and South America, (Caseldine et al., 2005; Gasse, 2002; Magny & Haas, 2004; Parker et al., 2006; Thompson et al., 1995).
The above evidence indicates that the MHCT was associated with a weakening of monsoon systems across the globe, and the southward retreat of monsoon rains in the NHST (Lézine, 2009). However, these changes coincided with climatic reorganisation outside of the global monsoon belt, as indicated by the onset of El Niño and evidence of large changes in climate at middle and high latitudes. The ultimate driving force behind these changes was a decline in the intensity of summer solar radiation outside the tropics, resulting from long-term changes in the angle of the Earth’s axis of rotation relative to its orbital plane. This was translated into abrupt changes in climate by non-linear feedback processes within the climate system (Brooks, 2004; deMenocal et al., 2000; Kukla & Gavin, 2004).
[...]
In the Sahara, population agglomeration is also evident in certain areas such as the Libyan Fezzan, which (albeit much later) also saw the emergence of an indigenous Saharan “civilization” in the form of the Garamantian Tribal Confederation, the development of which has been described explicitly in terms of adaptation to increased aridity (Brooks, 2006; di Lernia et al., 2002; Mattingly et al., 2003).
--Nick Brooks (2013): Beyond collapse: climate change and causality during the Middle Holocene Climatic Transition, 6400–5000 years before present, Geografisk Tidsskrift-Danish Journal of Geography, 112:2, 93-104
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
The man below, in the picture has undoubtably the same facial traits as Osorkon II.
Is he really a recent immigrant, or descendant of slaves?
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Conquered Libu (Libyan) from Ramessid era in Egypt:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: A row of tributaries bow to Amenhotep III from left to right--a Libyan, a Canaanite, a Syrian and a Nubian.
^ Note the complexion of the Libyan.
I don't discount the possibility of white Libyans, but I do have my suspicions since I see many Libyans with the exact same features and clothing as the white ones but with black skins. It makes me wonder whether folks are trying to revive the old 19th century theory of Petrie and Breasted's "white savages of North Africa".
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Frank Snowden Blacks in Antiquity Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1970 pp. 11-12
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote: HERODOTUS - BIOGRAPHY
Herodotus (484 BCE – c. 425 BCE) was a Greek Historian as well as known as the Father of Lies. These two titles were commonly held hand in hand as the early recorders of history were attempting to record an objective recounting of events while taking their stories from first-hand, second-hand, third-hand, etc accounts instead of recording a direct experience. Also entwined in the pejorative label of “Father of Lies” is that Herodotus was susceptible to subjective inclusion or exclusion of histories based on his personal involvement with peoples. Thebans and Corinthians who both denied him funds for his work subsequently suffered not the prettiest of pictures when recounted in Herodotus' work. Athenians gave him a fortune, thus perhaps securing a favorable telling of their exploits. Regardless, Herodotus was one of the first writers to bring together historical accounts (whether tweaked by the tellers or himself or not) and the only one to have survived in the form of The Histories. Therefore, the moniker of Father of History sticks.
[...]
Herodotus would also talk to many people and would recount the different accounts before choosing to promote the one that he found most probable. This is probably what garnered him the moniker of Father of Lies for within his history exist some pretty tall tales.
[...]
It is speculated that The Histories must have been around 415 BCE. Before that, Herodotus's craft would have looked very much like Homer's. The culture around the Mediterranean was oral and not written and just as Herodotus gained his knowledge from oral storytelling, he passed on much of it in this way as well.
quote: The concentration of populations in expanding settlements where surface water is available, and the organisation of these populations into specialised urban and/or stratified state-level societies, is not the only response to increasing aridity evident in the archaeological record. In other words the nature of the response is not determined by the nature of the climatic stress to which people must adapt. Differential adaptation is apparent in response to climatic desiccation in the Fezzan region of southern Libya, where Di Lernia and Palombini (2002) describe two contrasting responses to aridity in the middle Holocene. In higher elevation regions cattle herding, previously the dominant economic activity, almost completely disappeared after 5000 years BP. The keeping of cattle was replaced by highly mobile pastoralism based on sheep and goats and involving large-scale year round movement in order to exploit remnant water and pasture, a nomadic lifestyle that persists to this day. In contrast, lower elevation regions were characterised by increasing settlement in relict oases, associated with sedentism and more intensive exploitation of local resources. Settlement in the relict oases ultimately led to the emergence of the Garamantian civilisation in the early third millennium BP, based on the exploitation of underground water resources via the construction of subterranean irrigation channels or foggara (Wilson and Mattingly, 2003). The Garamantes dominated the Fezzan between about 3000 years BP and 700 years AD, and their society appears to have arisen as the result of local innovation, the outcome of a process of increasing social complexity among the pastoral groups of the Fezzan (Di Lernia et al., 2002; Mattingly, 2003).
--Brooks, Nick.
Beyond collapse: the role of climatic desiccation in the emergence of complex societies in the middle Holocene.
Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research and School of Environmental Sciences, University of East Anglia, Norwich NR4 7TJ, UK.
quote: Within Roman occupied Africa, the bulk of the population of was composed of three major population groups: the Berber tribes (such as Numidians, Gaetulians and Maurusiani), the ancient Carthaginians of Phoenician origin and Roman colonists. The Berbers were a dark skinned native African people that spoke a common language and shared ethnic characteristics. Besides the Afri in the regions controlled by Carthage, the tribes that took part in the wars against the Romans were the Lotophagi, the Garamantes, the Maces, the Nasamones, the Misulani or Musulamii, the Massyli and the Massaesyli.
--Chris Heaton as main author.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Since the lion ass forgot about this part of the history, I will gladly add it on.
Bilal Dogon should be able to confirm it.
quote: Islam came to Ethiopia around 615AD. The first Muslims were immigrants from Mecca due to persecution by the ruling Quraysh tribe. The prophet Mohamed (peace and blessings be upon him) felt Ethiopia to be a safe haven for his relatives and companions. Moslem historians refer to it as the first Higra or migration and the Christian Emperor as Ashama ibn Abjar. The prophet instructed his followers to ‘respect and protect Ethiopia and as well as live in peace with Ethiopian Christians. Today Harar, Ethiopia is considered the fourth holy city of Islam with 82 Mosques three of which date from the 10th. Century.
Dr. Ralph D. Winter founded the U.S. Center for World Mission (USCWM) - A Christian missionary group which is based in Pasadena, California. The Joshua Project.
A Turk of Algeria
A French woman of Algeria
A Spaniard of Algeria
A Romani (Gypsy) of Algeria
A Berber, Kabyle of Algeria
An Arabic speaker in Algeria
The Berber, Imazighen of Algeria
.
This is amazing, an African country with no Blacks, simply amazing!
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: You don't know how Islam spread into North Africa. It didn't start with the Almoravids, look into it
When the heck did I say Islam in Africa started with the Almoravids??? IIRC Prophet Muhammad first fled to Ethiopia which is a 'Sub Sahara country' thus it started from the south.
Posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
Etc...
Dr. Ralph D. Winter founded the U.S. Center for World Mission (USCWM) - A Christian missionary group which is based in Pasadena, California. The Joshua Project.
A Turk of Algeria
A French woman of Algeria
A Spaniard of Algeria
A Romani (Gypsy) of Algeria
A Berber, Kabyle of Algeria
An Arabic speaker in Algeria
The Berber, Imazighen of Algeria
This is amazing, an African country with no Blacks, simply amazing!
I have stated, see; "Step 2 - Select a People":
I have nothing against light complected Berbers, if you want ("more black looking") dark complected indigenous, here:
quote: Since the Sahara Desert is a harsh environment, most of the Saharan tribes occupy a number of oases. While there are many similarities between the various Berber groups, their particular lifestyles and quality of life vary according to the region in which they live.
The native Berber economy rests on a fine balance between farming and breeding cattle. Every tribe, without exception, depends heavily on domestic animals for carrying heavy loads, milk and dairy products, meat, and hides or wool. No Berber tribe depends on agriculture for survival. Hunting rarely adds to the food supply.
The Berbers call themselves the Imazighen, which means "man of noble origin." Their various languages belong to the Hamito-Semitic language family which includes five major groupings as well as a large number of dialects. Although the Berber languages differ greatly from one another in sound, they only vary slightly in grammar and vocabulary.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Well not all the people are noble/free. So Imazighen technically applies to the ruling warrior caste of the Kel Tagelmust.
Activist, probably following Leo Africanus' example, applied the term to all "Berber" speakers. The word kel (people of) is technically a construct but covers the all -- rulers, warriors, vassals, clerics, and even artisans and captives of the tent.
Non-"Twareg" "Berber" speaking peoples primarily name themselves after the place where they live using ait as the construct prefix.
Imazighen supposedly derives from an eponymous ancestor Mazigh and locally many do use a variant of Tamazight as the name of their "Berber" dialect.
MAZIGH aMAZIGH -- singular (Berber) IMAZIGHen -- plural (Berbers) taMAZIGHt -- feminine singular & name of language taMAZGHa -- Sahara to Mediterranean North Africa
BTW - the ksars of the oases are agricultural concerns so contrary to JoshuaProject
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