1) why are you saying Ahmad ibn Majid was West African when biographies say he was an Arab from Oman? Where are you getting this West African thing from?
2) If the Han Dynasty Chinese invented the compass (since about 206 BC) and later adopted it for navigation in the Song Dynasty during the 11th century then why are you saying Ahmad ibn Majid born in 1421 invented the compass?
3) why do you have the painting below in your video about Ahmad ibn Majid when it is not a picture of Ahmad ibn Majid?
Published on Apr 19, 2015 In this film we discuss the West African nautical science and the great navigator Ahmad ibn Majid. It explains aspects of West African nautical science and Majid's contribution to the development of navigation in the Indian Ocean and West Indies
Ahmad ibn Majid wasn't West African or Moroccan. I don't see the connection
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
This is an insult to black people. As if we need to blackwash Ahmad ibn Majid to have a list of great black engineers, inventors and innovators:
There's many great black inventors and innovators:
Steve Jobs hold many patents. He didn't invent computer or cell phone by themselves, but made great improvements to them. Which made him billions of dollars and be considered of the the best inventor and innovator of our time.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Check out my new video: The African who invented the Compass:
1) why are you saying Ahmad ibn Majid was West African when biographies say he was an Arab from Oman? Where are you getting this West African thing from?
2) If the Han Dynasty Chinese invented the compass (since about 206 BC) and later adopted it for navigation in the Song Dynasty during the 11th century then why are you saying Ahmad ibn Majid born in 1421 invented the compass?
3) why do you have the painting below in your video about Ahmad ibn Majid when it is not a picture of Ahmad ibn Majid?
See: R.A.G., Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam,,Muslim World, (1967) pp.284-292;
G. Ferrand, Introduction a l’astrnomie nautique des Arabes, Paris,1928 (p.247)
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: This is an insult to black people. As if we need to blackwash Ahmad ibn Majid to have a list of great black engineers, inventors and innovators:
There's many great black inventors and innovators:
Steve Jobs hold many patents. He didn't invent computer or cell phone by themselves, but made great improvements to them. Which made him billions of dollars and be considered of the the best inventor and innovator of our time.
I can excuse you because you don't respect Afro-American researchers unless they are supported by white scholars. One day you will learn that I don't write anything I can't back up. If you read my post on Abubakari you would remember that this isn't the first time I mentioned ibn Majid. It is your feeling of inferiority that won't allow you to believe that African people had such nautical science.
You depend too much on secondary research, do some original research and you will learn more about the real history of Arican/Black people. You have to visit a library everything is not on the internet.
Vasco da Gama said that he met Majid in West Africa. This means that West Africans were not just trading with the Americas, they were also trading with East Africans.
Scholars have known this for hundreds of years,yet this evidence has been ignored because people would rather believe the sole history of African people is slavery eventhough Spanish writers mentioned West Africans sailing boats up and down the Caribbean and Mexico, and African vessels in the Atlantic.
Published on Apr 19, 2015 In this film we discuss the West African nautical science and the great navigator Ahmad ibn Majid. It explains aspects of West African nautical science and Majid's contribution to the development of navigation in the Indian Ocean and West Indies
Ahmad ibn Majid wasn't West African or Moroccan. I don't see the connection
Vasco da Gama said Ibn Majid was West African. (See: G. Ferrand, Introduction a l’astrnomie nautique des Arabes, Paris,1928, p.247) We don't have any paintings of ibn Majid so this picture gives us a good example of how he may have looked since Majid was West African, and would have probably had dark skin.
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Here is my post on Abubakari I made on 10 August 2014.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Europeans learned about America from their travels along the West coast of Africa.Vasco da Gama, is said to have found out information concerning the West Indies from Ahmad b. Majid, of West Africa (Bazan, 1967). .
In A.D. 1312, Emperor Abubakari Muhammad , of Mali gave his throne to Mansa Musa and embarked with his fleet into the Atlantic Ocean in search of the continent opposite Africa. Archaeological and epigraphic evidence indicates that Abubakari, and or members of his expedition settled in pre-Columbian Brazil.
The Indians have a tradition that Mansar Akban was the leader of another tribe which discovered the Cunan people.This Mansar Akban, may be a reference to Mansa Abubakari, who led the Malian voyagers to the Americas.
The Manding lived in mounds along the Niger rivers. The mound cultures of ancient America were built by Africans primarily Manding. The people of the Niger Delta formed river riverine communities which were partly vegetation with some aquatic animals were eaten.
The ancient Manding built several types of homes. In ancient times they built masonry houses and cliff dwellings identical to those found in the American Southwest. In Medieval times they lived on mounds in the most watery areas in their circular huts made a stone and wood on the top and their fields in front of the mounds tilled each day.
The Malian people introduced their technology to the Americas. The Manding built dwellings depending on the topography . Near rivers they lived on mounds. In semi-arid regions they lived in cliff houses, like those found in the Southwest. Today the Dogon who trace their descent to the Mande live in identical dwellings as those found in Colorado ,where Manding inscriptions dating to the A.D. 1000 's have been found related to the Pueblo culture.
According to Cadamosto the Mali marines wore white caps on their heads and a white tunic. On the side of the skull-caps worn by the Malian martines, a white wing decoration was emblaxoned, and a feather was stuck in the middle of the skull cap.
On board each naval vessel stood a marine with a round leather shield on the arm and a short sword. Other marines were armed with bows and arrows .
Murphy reported that the Malian military wore a uniform consisting of sandles, loose fitting cotton breeches reaching down to the knees, a sleeveless tunic, and a white headdress of either cotton or leather, decorated with one or more feathers .
The major weapons of the Malian soldier included iron-pointed spears, daggers and short swords, wooden battle-clubs and the bow and arrow .
The Malians left many inscriptions in Brazil and elsewhere after they arrived in the Americas. These inscriptions are of two kinds. One group of inscriptions were meant to warn the Manding expeditionary force not to camp in certain areas.
.
. Inscriptions in this category are found at Piraicaba, Brazil. Another group of inscriptions were left in areas suitable for settlement.
Once a safe place was found for settlement, the Manding colonists built stone cities or mound habitations. One of these lost cities was found in A.D. 1753, by banderistas (bandits). .
. Wilkins, reported that these inscriptions were found in the State of Bahia,Brazil by Padre Tellesde Menezes, in Marajo near the Para-oacu and Una rivers engraved over a mausolea. They tell us that the personage buried in the Tomb was named Pe.
The most startling evidence of Malians in Brazil , is the "Brazil Tablet", discovered by Col. P.H. Fawcett in an unexplored region near the Culuene river. The interesting thing about this Tablet, was the fact it had "African pigment" and features.
The most startling evidence of Malians in Brazil , is the "Brazil Tablet", discovered by Col. P.H. Fawcett in an unexplored region near the Culuene river. The interesting thing about this Tablet, was the fact it had "African pigment" and features (printed above) .
The personage in this Tablet was an elite of Malian colony in Brazil. Evidence suggesting a Manding origin for the Brazil Tablet are 1) THE CROWN worn by the personage on the tablet; 2) the Manding inscriptions inscribed across the chest and feet of the figure on the Fawcett Tablet; and 3) the evidence of breeches similar to the Manding style military uniform worn by the personage depicted on the Fawcett Tablet.
The decipherment of these inscriptions detail the burial place, and cause of death of a Mansa or Mande King. it appears that the Mansa on the Brazil Tablet" was named Be. It tells us that Be, was buried in a hemisphere tomb (i.e.,mound) .
The Malians in South America also built their homes on top of mounds. There major centers of habitation appear to have been Panama and Venezuela in addition to Brazil. In Brazil there are many megalithic structures that seem to have there prototype in Africa. For example, in Alagoas we find many stone monuments similar to those found in West Africa, such as stone circles formed by rocks placed vertically on the ground.
The habitation mounds in Brazil are called sambuquis. Some of the sambuquis, have radio-carbon dates going back into pre-history, while many of the mounds where artifacts have been found are related to the cultures of Venezuela, and have dates contemporaneous with the Malian voyages.
In conclusion the ancient tombs and Brazil tablet indicate that Malians probably landed in Brazil. This is a significant artifact because the elite on the Brazil Tablet, wears a uniform associated with Malian marines. The discovery of a Brazil tomb dedicated to Pe, may in fact be the tomb of Be, who is depicted on the Brazil Tablet.
References: G. R. Crone, The Voyage of Cadamosto, (London,1937) pp.57-59.
E. Murphy, History of African Civilization, (New York,1972) p.111.
Harold T. Wilkins, Mysteries of Ancient South America, (Secacus, New Jersey:Citadel Press, 1974), pp.40-45; and Branco, p.146.
Winters, C.A. (1977). The influence of the Mnade scripts on American ancient writing systems. Bulletin de l'IFAN, t.39, Ser.B ,Number 2, 405-431.
Winters, C.A.(1979). Manding writing in the New World--Part 1, Journal of African Civilization, 1 (1), 81-97.
Read more about this in
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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Come on Dr Winters Lioness is right,his bio said he was Omani, he could still have been Black but that's just guess work but he was no Western African,and while your pic caption as him being a Black man it is as misleading as those of him being a non Black.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Come on Dr Winters Lioness is right,his bio said he was Omani, he could still have been Black but that's just guess work but he was no Western African,and while your pic caption as him being a Black man it is as misleading as those of him being a non Black.
These are my sources:
R.A.G., Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam,,Muslim World, (1967) pp.284-292;
G. Ferrand, Introduction a l’astronomie nautique des Arabes, Paris,1928 (p.247)
These sources say Da Gama met Majid in West Africa. Majid, the West African told Da Gama about travel to Indian Ocean, and the West Indies and Da Gama says he invented the compass. I did not make these things up. Are you saying Bazan, Ferrand , Da Gama is a liar? If they are lying what do they gain from lying? Given the citations, why do you make this claim?
The only reason I can deduce for your feelings about this matter is an inferiority complex. As Mike always says Europeans and Arab/Persians lie. This is probably the case with ibn Majid.
It is sad most people can't think for themselves . What do we know about Captain Da Gama. First, we know that Da Gama traveled up and down the West African coast for years, before he attempted to circumnavigate Africa to reach India. . Secondly, when Da Gama attempted to travel to India, he didn't go by way of the Meditteranean like other Europeans he went around Africa.
You say Majid was born in Oman. You shoudl ask yourself this question, if Majid was born in Oman, how did Da Gama know that he could circle Africa, safely and reach India?
But just for argument sake, lets assume that Da Gama met Majid in Oman.Think about the reality, Da Gama did not know how to get to Oman, if he did not meet Majid until he got to Oman, how did he travel around Africa to Oman--blindly. This suggest to me that Da Gama's account that he met Ahamd ibn Majid in West Africa, is the only way we can explain Da Gama reaching India safely.
Meeting Majid in West Africa, would explain how Majid told Da Gama about navigation in the Indian Ocean, that's how Da Gama knew he could find a Guide to help him make his way along the East African coast up to Oman and India.
Thirdly, why would Da Gama mention that Majid also told him about navigation among the Caribbean Islands, if Majid lived in Oman. Living in Oman, why would a navigator be interested in trading in the Caribbean when the main centers of trade at that time lied in the East.
No matter how you look at it, Da Gama meeting Majid in West Africa, has more currency than the Oman story, simply because it does not explain why Da Gama went around Africa in the first place, if he did not already know he had a great chance in sailing to India.
It is so sad that you , like most people can not accept the realities of our history. Sadly, unless a European writes something you can't believe it. You feel so inferior that to think a Black man, me, an Afro-American knows more about history than a white man is too much for your mind to accept.
My son was in the Navy. I liked the Navy because you obtained rank based on how smart you are. Your comments lead me to believe you don't think too well. Instead of waiting for Europeans to tell you this or that. Think for yourself.
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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Look at where Oman is in relation to Africa proper West Africans were not isolated from the rest of the Islamic world they shared technology and knowledge as well as commerce, and what's with "Euro" thinking, something is either factual or not, telling others that they are infected by Eurocentric thought does not change the fact that the man is Omani regardless if he was Black or not.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Ahmad ibn Majid did not invent the compass either
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Ahmad ibn Majid did not invent the compass either
These are my sources:
R.A.G., Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam,,Muslim World, (1967) pp.284-292;
G. Ferrand, Introduction a l’astronomie nautique des Arabes, Paris,1928 (p.247)
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Look at where Oman is in relation to Africa proper West Africans were not isolated from the rest of the Islamic world they shared technology and knowledge as well as commerce, and what's with "Euro" thinking, something is either factual or not, telling others that they are infected by Eurocentric thought does not change the fact that the man is Omani regardless if he was Black or not.
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I think it is an issue. There are many things that can be factual--but Black people may still reject the information if it is not first said by a European. What makes this even worst is I have citations, from Europeans, claiming Majid was West African. Moreover,you can't explain how Da Gama made it to Oman, without prior directions. This makes me feel that you are prejudice, and feel white is right--Black, step back.
These are my sources:
R.A.G., Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam,,Muslim World, (1967) pp.284-292;
G. Ferrand, Introduction a l’astronomie nautique des Arabes, Paris,1928 (p.247)
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
G. Ferrand, Introduction a l’astrnomie nautique des Arabes, Paris,1928 (p.247)
Après avoir doublé le cap de Bonne-Espérance, lorsque Vasco de Gama eut atteint Malindi sur la côte orientale d'Afrique, il put s'y procurer un pilote qui le conduisit direc- tement à Calicut. Le fait est brièvement rapporté dans le journal de bord rédigé par un des marins de l'expéditionS avec plus de détails par les premiers historiens portugais des découvertes, notamment par Barros-, Castanheda^ et Damiâo de Goes* qui donnent même le nom de ce pilote : Canaqua,
^^^ It says Vasco de Gama met ibn Majid in Malindi, coastal Kenya founded by Arab traders in the early thirteenth century. And because Vasco de Gama, according to one account, may have met ibn Majid in Africa
That does not mean ibn Majid was African ________________________________
Also:
The account of ibn Majid assisting Vasco da Gama is first described by the Ottoman historian Qutb al Din, roughly 50 years after ibn Majid's death. Tibbets asserts that the account of ibn Majid leading Vasco da Gama to India is slanderous, asserting as it does that ibn Majid (a devout Muslim) was drunk when he traded his knowledge of the route for passage back to Ras al Khaima. While there is some debate as to who Vasco da Gama's navigator was – the result of a lack of clarity in his captain's log and several competing accounts written by contemporary Portuguese scholars – according to Tibbets, the tale of ibn Majid leading Vasco da Gama is popularized largely as a result of the ascendancy of the Western narrative of world history, and is not historically accurate. Remembered as 'The Lion of the Sea', ibn Majid's true legacy was the substantial body of literature on sailing that he left behind. Arab sailing was at a pinnacle during ibn Majid's lifetime, when both Europeans and Ottomans had only a limited understanding of geography in the Indian Ocean. His Kitab al-Fawa’id fi Usul ‘Ilm al-Bahr wa ’l-Qawa’id, was widely utilized by Arab sailors and addressed celestial navigation, weather patterns and charts of dangerous areas in which to sail. This tome, in addition to his poetic works, were the true legacy of the sailor. Two of ibn Majid's famous hand-written books are now prominent exhibits in the National Library in Paris. ____________________________________
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
G. Ferrand, Introduction a l’astrnomie nautique des Arabes, Paris,1928 (p.247)
Après avoir doublé le cap de Bonne-Espérance, lorsque Vasco de Gama eut atteint Malindi sur la côte orientale d'Afrique, il put s'y procurer un pilote qui le conduisit direc- tement à Calicut. Le fait est brièvement rapporté dans le journal de bord rédigé par un des marins de l'expéditionS avec plus de détails par les premiers historiens portugais des découvertes, notamment par Barros-, Castanheda^ et Damiâo de Goes* qui donnent même le nom de ce pilote : Canaqua,
^^^ It says Vasco de Gama met ibn Majid in Malindi, coastal Kenya founded by Arab traders in the early thirteenth century. And because Vasco de Gama, according to one account, may have met ibn Majid in Africa
That does not mean ibn Majid was African ________________________________
Also:
The account of ibn Majid assisting Vasco da Gama is first described by the Ottoman historian Qutb al Din, roughly 50 years after ibn Majid's death. Tibbets asserts that the account of ibn Majid leading Vasco da Gama to India is slanderous, asserting as it does that ibn Majid (a devout Muslim) was drunk when he traded his knowledge of the route for passage back to Ras al Khaima. While there is some debate as to who Vasco da Gama's navigator was – the result of a lack of clarity in his captain's log and several competing accounts written by contemporary Portuguese scholars – according to Tibbets, the tale of ibn Majid leading Vasco da Gama is popularized largely as a result of the ascendancy of the Western narrative of world history, and is not historically accurate. Remembered as 'The Lion of the Sea', ibn Majid's true legacy was the substantial body of literature on sailing that he left behind. Arab sailing was at a pinnacle during ibn Majid's lifetime, when both Europeans and Ottomans had only a limited understanding of geography in the Indian Ocean. His Kitab al-Fawa’id fi Usul ‘Ilm al-Bahr wa ’l-Qawa’id, was widely utilized by Arab sailors and addressed celestial navigation, weather patterns and charts of dangerous areas in which to sail. This tome, in addition to his poetic works, were the true legacy of the sailor. Two of ibn Majid's famous hand-written books are now prominent exhibits in the National Library in Paris. ____________________________________
Majid was not a pilot. It was an Indian who piloted Vasco da Gama to India.
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Posted by CelticWarrioress (Member # 19701) on :
Clyde, look at you you hypocrite, Mr. Whites are inferior non-humans (yes you did say Whites were inferior and weren't human). You talk about someone being prejudice when you are prejudice (no racist) as hell, so prejudice (racist) that you have stated that Whites are inferior & aren't human, along with saying we have no history, heritage, identity, homeland,etc etc. Clean your own dang house before you go talking about how dirty someone else's house is.
Ok, that's all I have to say on this thread I'm out now, continue on now LOL Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by CelticWarrioress: Clyde, look at you you hypocrite, Mr. Whites are inferior non-humans (yes you did say Whites were inferior and weren't human). You talk about someone being prejudice when you are prejudice (no racist) as hell, so prejudice (racist) that you have stated that Whites are inferior & aren't human, along with saying we have no history, heritage, identity, homeland,etc etc. Clean your own dang house before you go talking about how dirty someone else's house is.
Ok, that's all I have to say on this thread I'm out now, continue on now LOL
you only make reactive posts, always on defence
But where are your own threads talking about white history? Where's your proactive white pride?
Are you scared to make your own threads on white heritage?
Can you take the heat?
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by CelticWarrioress: Clyde, look at you you hypocrite, Mr. Whites are inferior non-humans (yes you did say Whites were inferior and weren't human). You talk about someone being prejudice ...blah..baa..baaaa
Boy behave yourself. This is no elementary school... Posted by CelticWarrioress (Member # 19701) on :
Lioness, why should I make threads on White history?? Nobody here is the least bit interested in it except when they are trying to steal it.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The information about Ahmad ibn Majid of West Africa , comes from T.A. Shumusky, Tri neizuesttruie totsii Akhmada ibn Madzhida lotsmana Vasko da Gamui, Moscow, 1957, and R.A.G. Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam,,Muslim World, (1967) pp.284-292. In G. Ferrand, Introduction a l’astrnomie nautique des Arabes(, Paris,1928) you can read about some of the work of ibn Majid. The identification of the West African ibn Majid is depended on the translations of Bazan because I do not read Russian.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
It gives me no pleasure to assess that this thread is a perfect example of
- doxa, - racial sympathy, - ad hominem, and - a skeletal citation methodology (not requiring any actual quotes)
to defend a thesis refuted by the inescapable facts others posted.
Bazan's writing:
... Majid, whom he met on the west coast of Africa. Arab stories say that this ibn Majid was 'intoxicated' by the Portuguese so that he would show them the way to the Indies. He is regarded as the author of a handbook on navigation on the Indian Ocean, ...
I think this even came up in the recent South Africa thread.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
In the below extract we learn ibn Majid wrote on the invention of the compass, a feat some misinterpret as ibn Majid actually inventing the compass himself something ibn Majid never claimed. Ibn Majid attributed the making of the magnetized needle to al~Khidr (the Green One) of Qur'anic lore.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^ Book title and author?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Mine it Ms Miner
I want you to work for it
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The identification of the West African ibn Majid is depended on the translations of Bazan because I do not read Russian.
The article by Rafael A. Guevara Bazán is wriiten in English
“Some Notes for a History of the Relations between Latin America, the Arabs, and Islam.” The Muslim World, vol. 61, no. 4 (Oct. 1971) _________________________________________________
It is pay for view on Wiley Do you have access to it or a Russian Translation link?
Everything Clyde said in this thread turned out to be a bust.
This is an insult to all the great black inventors in history holding patents in all scientific fields as well as current black engineers, doctors, technicians, scientists.
Yes, current genetic and archaeological results seem to indicate Ancient Egyptians were black Africans, mostly made up of people who stayed back in Africa during the OOA migrations (Ramses III=E1b1a, BMJ/JAMA study, Paabo, etc). But they were still their own people and there's no need to steal other people's history. If Ancient Egypt would have turned out to NOT be mostly black Africans, It would have been no biggy. Black people have a rich heritage outside Ancient Egypt and Kush. It is also childish to turn the table against the eurocentrists of the past by becoming like them but afro instead of euro.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
If you compare all of Clyde's referencing of Bazan that are all over the web and compare them to the italicized quote in my first post you will notice his is paraphrased not an actual quote.
There is no compass inventing West African ibn Majid and to go on with all that roorag is only to to cause people to think Africa has no history else why all these easily exposed great glorious grand fraudulent fantasies.
Meanwhile meaty African accomplishments as full of grandeur as any other peoples go neglected.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Mine it Ms Miner
I want you to work for it
Other Routes: 1500 Years of African and Asian Travel Writing Tabish Khair - 2006 -
Also see Seafaring in the Arabian Gulf and Oman: People of the Dhow By Dionisius A. Agius
But you can't get on Clyde's case without doing a proper citation (at least not fully)
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
There is no compass inventing West African ibn Majid and to go on with all that roorag is only to to cause people to think Africa has no history else why all these easily exposed great glorious grand fraudulent fantasies.
Exactly
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
@tL; I really can't say where precisely between pp.284-292 my Bazan article quote can be found in that journal behind the paywall (hint: p.285).
I glued together a few phrases found via GOOGLE returns, crumb by crumb.
@ARtU Not trying to be hard on Clyde and I know you aren't either.
I'm hard on his conclusions. There' a lot to be learned from Clyde's writings, though I would caution some familiarity with any topic he discourses on.
What I would like Clyde to do is confer with ESers during production stages of his works, especially wen preparing something like his letter to Oppenheimer.
It shouldn't touch his pride because nearly all scholars confer with other boh lay and professional and often list them in a preface or someplace.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
.
The West African origin of the compass and Majid is not a bust. The only way Da Gama got to India was probably through the knowledge he learned from Majid the West African navigator.
The Turks claim that Ahmad ibn Majid was an Omani. Other researchers claim Vasco Da Gama met Majid in West Africa. The information about Ahmad ibn Majid of West Africa , comes from T.A. Shumusky, Tri neizuesttruie totsii Akhmada ibn Madzhida lotsmana Vasko da Gamui ( Moscow, 1957), and R.A.G. Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam,,Muslim World, (1967) pp.284-292.
The Turk account of Majid , comes from The Ottoman conquest of the Yemen , this book discusses the Portuguese entry into the Indian Ocean . It was written 50 years after the Da Gama voyage. This authors claim that Majid was drinking with a Frank merchant and Da Gama, and gave him the secrets to navigation in the Indian Ocean this seems highly unlikely for two reasons. First, where did this drinking take place, between Da Gama, the German and Majid; was it in Oman or East Africa. This sounds illogical because how did Da Gama, get to Oman, if he didn’t know the way until he was instructed by Majid in navigation of the Indian Ocean.
Secondly, Da Gama made it clear he got an Indian pilot at Malindi to guide him to India. Ask yourself, how would Da Gama have known he would need an Indian pilot to reach India, because they used the Monsoons. It was knowledge of the monsoons that made Da Gama's voyage to India smooth, but his return to Africa without a guide horrendous.
This makes the Turk story about Majid unlikely. Since it was written 50 years after the voyage of Da Gama,the Turks could have gotten a copy of Majid’s book by this time, and made up the story about the Omani origins of ibn Majid.
I believe that Da Gama learned about the West Indies and Indian Ocean trade from a West African named Ahmad ibn Majid, because of 1)the Treaty of Tordesillas, and 2) Da Gama being chosen to lead the expedition to India.
Vasco Da Gama had extensive experience sailing along the West African coast. This would have given him enough time to have met Ahmad ibn Majid. It is obvious that the Portuguese probably knew more about the New World than they let on. Their desire to draw the Tordesillas Line which gave Portugal Brazil is quite interesting because, Brazil was a strong center of African colonization since the expedition of Abubakari, and since there was frequent trade between West Africa and the Americas when Columbus reached America, Da Gama due to his relationship with Majid would have already known how valuable Brazil was to any future power in the Americas. Da Gama probably passed this on to the Portuguese King, who pushed for the Tordesillas line.
Secondly Da Gama was a junior naval officer, but he was given Command of the expedition to India. This was strange because they already had an experienced officer who had sailed around the South Africa.
Bartolome Dias is already a veteran navigator he had rounded the Cape of Good Hope in South Africa 10 years earlier. But he was not given the Command of the expedition to India, the Command of this expedition was given to Da Gama . We must assume that King Manuel I , felt Da Gama had nautical knowledge.that would help him to be successful in this expedition. Da Gama must of had some special knowledge about trade in the Indian Ocean region that would make him more successful than Dias. This information may have been what he learned about the trade from ibn Majid.
In summary I believe that Da Gama learned about trade in the West indies and Indian Ocean from a West African named Ahmad ibn Majid. And because of this Knowledge the Portuguese were able to gain Brazil, and Da Gama was given Command of the expedition to India.
It is sad many readers of this forum can not fathon that Africans had such nautical knowledge because of white supremist ideas they have digested. It is you guys who deep down feel Africa has no history.
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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
^^ a picture of an unknown Moroccan
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The West African origin of the compass and Majid is not a bust.
It is a bust because the compass was invented by the Chinese around 200 BC and later used for navigation in the Song Dynasty during the 11th century
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Turks claim that Ahmad ibn Majid was an Omani. Other researchers claim Vasco Da Gama met Majid in West Africa. The information about Ahmad ibn Majid of West Africa , comes from T.A. Shumusky, Tri neizuesttruie totsii Akhmada ibn Madzhida lotsmana Vasko da Gamui ( Moscow, 1957), and R.A.G. Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam,,Muslim World, (1967) pp.284-292.
who is T.A. Shumusky? Nobody's ever heard of him. Where's the credentials? Where's the quote?
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The identification of the West African ibn Majid is depended on the translations of Bazan because I do not read Russian.
If you haven't read the source because it's in Russian then you don't know what is says and therfore can't use it in an argument. Bazan is not Russian and the article he wrote is in English so your inability to read Russian doesn't matter
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Turk account of Majid , comes from The Ottoman conquest of the Yemen , this book discusses the Portuguese entry into the Indian Ocean . It was written 50 years after the Da Gama voyage.
That Turk account is the oldest account of a meeting between Ibn Majid and Vasco da Gama
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
This authors claim that Majid was drinking with a Frank merchant and Da Gama, and gave him the secrets to navigation in the Indian Ocean this seems highly unlikely for two reasons. First, where did this drinking take place, between Da Gama, the German and Majid; was it in Oman or East Africa. This sounds illogical because how did Da Gama, get to Oman, if he didn’t know the way until he was instructed by Majid in navigation of the Indian Ocean.
If Vasco da Gama went to West Africa that doesn't mean he was West African. If Ibn Majid was in East Africa it doesn't mean he was East African. If they both met in Kenya it doesn't mean the were both Kenyan.
Ibn Majid was born in Oman If met da Gama in the Arab port city of Malindi Kenya that does not mean he wasn't born in Oman. It means he traveled sometimes
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Secondly, Da Gama made it clear he got an Indian pilot at Malindi to guide him to India. Ask yourself, how would Da Gama have known he would need an Indian pilot to reach India, because they used the Monsoons. It was knowledge of the monsoons that made Da Gama's voyage to India smooth, but his return to Africa without a guide horrendous.
This makes the Turk story about Majid unlikely. Since it was written 50 years after the voyage of Da Gama,the Turks could have gotten a copy of Majid’s book by this time, and made up the story about the Omani origins of ibn Majid.
Ibn Majid wrote several books and Vasco da Gama wrote journals. Neither of them mention meeting the other ! None of the Portuguese historians of the time even mention Vasco da Gama meeting Ibn Majid.
Recognize, the meeting was first described by the Ottoman historian Qutb al Din, like you said, about 50 years after ibn Majid's death ! But you didn't now that waw the first account And It may never even have happened The Turk might have made up the story with the intent "you dumb Portugese didn't know where you were going until a drunken Fellahin tipped you off"
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
I believe that Da Gama learned about the West Indies and Indian Ocean trade from a West African named Ahmad ibn Majid
Vasco da Gama didn't learn about the West Indies because he didn't go there
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Da Gama due to his relationship with Majid would have already known how valuable Brazil was to any future power in the Americas. Da Gama probably passed this on to the Portuguese King, who pushed for the Tordesillas line.
ibn Mājid didn't go to the Americas!
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
In summary I believe that Da Gama learned about trade in the West indies and Indian Ocean from a West African named Ahmad ibn Majid.
You must have Vasco da Gama confused with Columbus. It was Columbus who went to the West Indies, not da Gama
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
I don't have Vasco Da Gama confused with Columbus. I never said he travelled to the New World. I said that Majid told Da Gama about travel in th Indian Ocean and Caribbean.
Formerly, I believed that there were only two migrations of West Africans (Niger-Congo) People into the Pacific Island the first during the Megalithic Age, and another during the Lapita age.
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. The presence of West African toponyms in the Pacific Islands and India, make it clear that the West Africans had itimate contact with the Indian Ocean for many generations. This is the only way to explain West African placenames, because the Niger-Congo speakers did not begin to fully occupy much of West Africa until after 1000 BC.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Blackman lies, Clyde.
Ibn Majid was by all contemporaneous accounts apparently was an Omani Arab.
Ibn Majid was never in West Africa.
Da Gama only learned the sea route to India from Swahili coast mariners and it had to be by some manner of coercion because no countryman would wreck his own sea power and so militarily and financially impact it for the worst.
Late Niger-Kordofanian occupation is another lie. We have the archaeology. It shows by pottery, plant tendering and domestication, and metallurgy what people were there.
Climatology also indicates these West African Pleistocene folk moved north with the monsoons that greened the Sahara for the Holocene.
As the Sahara re-desertified, some moved back to West Africa with their stone industry. But those who remained in W Afr during the greening had begun iron reduction already by then.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Blackman lies, Clyde.
Ibn Majid was by all contemporaneous accounts apparently was an Omani Arab.
Ibn Majid was never in West Africa.
Da Gama only learned the sea route to India from Swahili coast mariners and it had to be by some manner of coercion because no countryman would wreck his own sea power and so militarily and financially impact it for the worst.
Late Niger-Kordofanian occupation is another lie. We have the archaeology. It shows by pottery, plant tendering and domestication, and metallurgy what people were there.
Climatology also indicates these West African Pleistocene folk moved north with the monsoons that greened the Sahara for the Holocene.
As the Sahara re-desertified, some moved back to West Africa with their stone industry. But those who remained in W Afr during the greening had begun iron reduction already by then.
You have no evidence Ahmad ibn Majid was never in Africa. This is your opinion. What we do know is that a Gujurati, guided Vasco Da Gama to India. So there is no way Da Gama met Majid at Malindi.
There are no contemporary accounts of Majid. The only word we have of him was written 50 years after his death by the Ottoman historian Qutb al Din. This gave the Ottomans plenty of time to get Majid's book from West Africa.
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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
What a transparent strawman. Ibn Majid was never in Africa? Who said that? Don't you know where the Swahili coast is?
C'mon man I presented my stuff above including a direct quote and a complete 3 page passage.
You fail to present anything except a poor makeover that twists what's written in the sources you refuse to supply any extensive passages or simple quotes from.
Give it up and learn to accept critique for your further investigation on your part instead of immediately dismissing it and huckstering racial sympathy (something that shows this thesis cannot rationally stand on its own but is only good for 'black' people who know even less about it than you do.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Late Niger-Kordofanian occupation is another lie. We have the archaeology. It shows by pottery, plant tendering and domestication, and metallurgy what people were there.
Climatology also indicates these West African Pleistocene folk moved north with the monsoons that greened the Sahara for the Holocene.
^^^This is false.
What is important for people to know is that modern West African people for the most part (like Niger-Kordofanian speakers) are relatively recent migrants to their current West African locations(regions). By recent, in this case, we mean after 10kya, thus during the Holocene.
Here's a quote from the book called The Origins of Modern Humans: Biology reconsidered (p23-24). Similar analysis can also be seen in other literature:
quote:Emergence of Distinctive Regional Groups in Africa
Curiously, although modern humans appeared very early in Africa, there was a very long delay until the appearance of individuals who can not be distinguished metrically and morphologically from the living inhabitants of each part of Africa . In fact, almost all Africa Late Pleistocene hominins [Edit:between 120kya and 10kya] are easily distinguished from living Africans (Anderson, 1968; Brothwell and Shaw, 1971; Gramly and Rightmire, 1973; Twiesselmann, 1991; Muteti et al., 2010; Angel et al., 1980; de Villiers and Fatti, 1982; Angel and Olsen Kelly, 1986; Habgood, 1989; Howells, 1989; Boaz et al., 1990; Allsworth-Jones et al., 2010), and it is not until the Holocene that this situation changes (Rightmire, 1975, 1978b, 1984b; de Villiers and Fatti, 1982; Bräuer, 1984b; Habgood, 1989).
So basically, modern West African people arrived at their current location AFTER the late pleistocene period (or at worst at the very end of it) during the Holocene thus after 10 000BC. This is also true for most other modern African population in their respective regions (Cushitic and Chadic speakers).
Originally those modern West African migrants lived in North-eastern Africa which is the geographic origin of the Niger-Kordofanian languages (discussed HERE) as well as the geographic origin of the E-P2/E1b1a haplogroup lineage (the lineage of over 90% of the modern West African populations).
Before the arrival of modern West Africans during the Holocene, West Africa was inhabited by small groups of humans which didn't leave any traces (like languages) and were thus probably absorbed by the Holocene migrants. Modern West Africans are physically distinct from Pleistocene Africans inhabiting that region as stated in the quote above.
Only in Eastern Africa, around the Sudan region, can we see continuity between Pleistocene and Holocene specimen (as discussed HERE).
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: What a transparent strawman. Ibn Majid was never in Africa? Who said that? Don't you know where the Swahili coast is?
C'mon man I presented my stuff above including a direct quote and a complete 3 page passage.
You fail to present anything except a poor makeover that twists what's written in the sources you refuse to supply any extensive passages or simple quotes from.
Give it up and learn to accept critique for your further investigation on your part instead of immediately dismissing it and huckstering racial sympathy (something that shows this thesis cannot rationally stand on its own but is only good for 'black' people who know even less about it than you do.
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Correct you did present your stuff above. What do we discover from the material: 1) the Ottoman and Arabs, believe that Majid guided Da Gama to India, from Malindi; this is false it was a Gujurati pilot. Secondly, the first mention of Majid, according to your material was 50 years after his death by Ottoman historian Qutb al Din. There is no prior mention of Majid. This suggest that the Ottomans and Arabs did not know about Majid , until after Da Gama made his way to India between 1497-98. It was probably after Da Gama reached India, that Arab and Ottoman sailors found out about Majid's Kitab al-Fawa’id fi Usul ‘Ilm al-Bahr wa ’l-Qawa’id (Book of Useful Information on the Principles and Rules of Navigation), after this discovery they promptly send envoys to Majid in West Africa to get copies of his book. This is the most logical way the Arabs and Turks learned about the work of Majid, because it was not until after 1500 that this book became standard reading for Indian Ocean merchants.
In summary, their is nothing in the material you posted that proves that Da Gama did not get information about the Indian Ocean navigation from Majid in West Africa.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
No matter what you say Tukuler the elephant in the room is the shared placesnames for India, the Pacific and West Africa. This shows that West Africans were living in the Indian Ocean for a considerable length of time. Given the presence of West Africans in the area there is no way we can say that the West Africans didn't maintain trade with their kinsmen in the Indian Ocean.
This would also explain why we find that most Omanis carry the Benin haplotype (34%), which is common in West Africa.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Here is my copy of the Bazan article: R.A.G. Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam,,Muslim World, (1967) pp.284-292.
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
Distraction doesn't change the fact that ibn Majid, a prolific author as well as scion of a mariner family, was from what was then Oman but is now known as the United Arab Emirates (north of modern Oman).
You don't know the name of even one of ibn Majid's works less lone the contents of any of them.
Do you know ibn Majid's full name?
Besides pinning the original compass invention on a folk loric figure -- al~Kidhr -- Ibn Majid tells us about several different kind of floating magnetized needle compasses already in use by Maghrebis, Egyptians, and Arabs.
Ibn Majid never mentioned da Gama but he did write about European navigation around the Cape and of their sailing the Indian Ocean directly from Sofala (which is not what da Gama says about it) including Portuguese settlement in India.
There's a whole lot more than just your say so.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by ausar: Distraction doesn't change the fact that ibn Majid, a prolific author as well as scion of a mariner family, was from what was then Oman but is now known as the United Arab Emirates (north of modern Oman).
You don't know the name of even one of ibn Majid's works less lone the contents of any of them.
Do you know ibn Majid's full name?
Besides pinning the original compass invention on a folk loric figure -- al~Kidhr -- Ibn Majid tells us about several different kind of floating magnetized needle compasses already in use by Maghrebis, Egyptians, and Arabs.
Ibn Majid never mentioned da Gama but he did write about European navigation around the Cape and of their sailing the Indian Ocean directly from Sofala including Portuguese settlement in India.
There's a whole lot more than just your say so.
Tukuler, the information about Europeans trading in the Indian Ocean, is highly suspect because the Portuguese trade was not well established in the area until after Majid died in 1500. This information was probably attached to the Kitab al-Fawa’id fi Usul ‘Ilm al-Bahr wa ’l-Qawa’id (Book of Useful Information on the Principles and Rules of Navigation), after Majid's death. You can interpret the material anyway you wish but their is no mention of Majid until 50 years after his death. It was only in the 1500's that his book was a standard tool for navigation. What you have written is just your opinion about Majid not being from West Africa. If the Arabs got it wrong about Majid leading Da Gama to India, what else did they make up.
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The Ottoman story about Ahmad ibn Majid life is probably pure fiction.They probably placed his home in Oman because other West Afgricans may have lived there at the time.
According to the Turks, Majid published his Kitab al-Fawa’id fi Usul ‘Ilm al-Bahr wa ’l-Qawa’id (Book of Useful Information on the Principles and Rules of Navigation) in 1489 or 1490, while at the same time claiming that Vasco da Gama made Majid drunk to trick him into leading Da Gama to India. Are we to believe that if Majid was an Omani he would have betrayed his fellow Muslim borthers, when alledgely he knew the importance of the trade to the Omanis. The answer would be a resounding: NO.
The Arabs probably learned abiout the work of Majid after Da Gama made his voyage to India. This is the only way the Ottoman probably began the myth that Majid piloted Da Gama’s ship to India, when the actual guide or pilot was a Gujurati sailor. What probably really happened was this. Da Gama reached India. In India the merchants asked him how did he find his way, it was then that Majid told them about Majid. After further investigation the Arabs and Turks probably sent people to West Africa to get Majid’s Kitab al-Fawa’id fi Usul ‘Ilm al-Bahr wa ’l-Qawa’id . Ahmad ibn Majid was a West African navigator. Although Majid himself lived in West Africa, there were probably communities of West Africanss throughout the Indian Ocean and Pacific. This is supported by shared toponyms (place-names) in West Africa and the Pacific-India region, and the Niger-Congo substratum in Austronesian languages.
West African placenames are found in India and the Pacific Islands. This allows us to date the probable expansion of West Africans into the Indian Ocean between 2500- 3000 years ago. This date is based on the settlement of Niger-Congo speakers in West Africa after the break up of ancient Egypt as more and more Eurasians invaded the land. This would explain the West African place names in India-Pacific that exist in both Africa and the Indian Ocean. Common placenames in India-Pacific and West Africa make it clear that there was an intimate relationship between both groups. In fact, West Africans may have still been trading with East African, and the India-Pacific region up to the Portuguese period.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Nothing can counter the fact that ibn Majid wrote over 20 'books' himself (naturally before he died and thus half a century before the Turk concocted tale about his intoxication.
Again it's a proven fact W Afr was inhabited before even the Old Kingdom Egypt. Iron was being reduced in an Igbo region of Nigeria c. 3000 BCE roughly 300 years before the Old Kingdom.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Bosco set off on 8 July 1497, with four square- rigged ships: the caravels stayed at home, except for a supply vessel, chosen to be able to shift back and forth among the main ships. This was a solid gesture of confidence that the voyage would be made with following winds. On his outward journey from the coast
Felipe Fernández-Armesto Pathfinders: A Global History of Exploration New York: W.W. Norton, 2007
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The identification of the West African ibn Majid is depended on the translations of Bazan because I do not read Russian.
Here is my copy of the Bazan article: R.A.G. Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam,,Muslim World, (1967) pp.284-292.
Above is the portion of the Rafael Bazan article which mentions Ibn Majid
The first indented paragraph top of p 285 right top:
quote: Arab georgraphical information reached Vasco da Gama through his consultation with Ahamad b. Majid, whom he met on the West Coast of Africa.
So, Bazan says da Gama got Arab information from Ibn Majid.
He claims da Gama met Ibn Majid on the West Coast of Africa rather than the East Coast as claimed by the earliest primary source, though still about 50 years after Majid's death.
Nowhere does Bazan say Vasco da Gama or Ibn Majid were Africans. They mererly met there.
So why do you have a video up saying Ibn Majid was African when no primary source or modern source says Ibn Majid was African??
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Instead of doubling down on bad info just retract it and move on, there is no shame in that, great men of science do all the time,it's enough that Africans made use of the compass, astronomy was one of the courses taught at the university of Timbuktu,these people were among the greatest collectors and disseminators of information in the medieval world.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
WHOOPS
Big ups to Clyde My bad for not scrolling up (I start at the bottom) Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Outward and Return voyages of the Portuguese India Run (Carreira da Índia). The Outward route of the South Atlantic westerlies that Bartolomeu Dias discovered in 1487, followed and explored by Vasco da Gama in the open ocean, would be developed in subsequent years.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
If I wasn't clear before, the time period of habitation by moderns is on the Pleistocene - Holocene cusp.
Please refresh yourself with Ounjougou (near the Bandiagara cliffs) home to 11,400 year old pottery and the non-E-P2 nrY haplogroup E-M33 a W Afr deep ancestry specific marker.
Let's take this up in another thread where the title will let surfers know this is what's in it, OK?
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Late Niger-Kordofanian occupation is another lie. We have the archaeology. It shows by pottery, plant tendering and domestication, and metallurgy what people were there.
Climatology also indicates these West African Pleistocene folk moved north with the monsoons that greened the Sahara for the Holocene.
^^^This is false.
What is important for people to know is that modern West African people for the most part (like Niger-Kordofanian speakers) are relatively recent migrants to their current West African locations(regions). By recent, in this case, we mean after 10kya, thus during the Holocene.
Here's a quote from the book called The Origins of Modern Humans: Biology reconsidered (p23-24). Similar analysis can also be seen in other literature:
quote:Emergence of Distinctive Regional Groups in Africa
Curiously, although modern humans appeared very early in Africa, there was a very long delay until the appearance of individuals who can not be distinguished metrically and morphologically from the living inhabitants of each part of Africa . In fact, almost all Africa Late Pleistocene hominins [Edit:between 120kya and 10kya] are easily distinguished from living Africans (Anderson, 1968; Brothwell and Shaw, 1971; Gramly and Rightmire, 1973; Twiesselmann, 1991; Muteti et al., 2010; Angel et al., 1980; de Villiers and Fatti, 1982; Angel and Olsen Kelly, 1986; Habgood, 1989; Howells, 1989; Boaz et al., 1990; Allsworth-Jones et al., 2010), and it is not until the Holocene that this situation changes (Rightmire, 1975, 1978b, 1984b; de Villiers and Fatti, 1982; Bräuer, 1984b; Habgood, 1989).
So basically, modern West African people arrived at their current location AFTER the late pleistocene period (or at worst at the very end of it) during the Holocene thus after 10 000BC. This is also true for most other modern African population in their respective regions (Cushitic and Chadic speakers).
Originally those modern West African migrants lived in North-eastern Africa which is the geographic origin of the Niger-Kordofanian languages (discussed HERE) as well as the geographic origin of the E-P2/E1b1a haplogroup lineage (the lineage of over 90% of the modern West African populations).
Before the arrival of modern West Africans during the Holocene, West Africa was inhabited by small groups of humans which didn't leave any traces (like languages) and were thus probably absorbed by the Holocene migrants. Modern West Africans are physically distinct from Pleistocene Africans inhabiting that region as stated in the quote above.
Only in Eastern Africa, around the Sudan region, can we see continuity between Pleistocene and Holocene specimen (as discussed HERE).
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
. ... What do we discover from the material: 1) the Ottoman and Arabs, believe that Majid guided Da Gama to India, from Malindi; this is false it was a Gujurati pilot.
. .
Accounts of the legendary pilot differ.
* Gujerati (Indian black), * Xian, * Muslim.
Take your pick.
quote:Secondly, the first mention of Majid, according to your material was 50 years after his death by Ottoman historian Qutb al Din. There is no prior mention of Majid.
. .
How could the first mention of ibn Majid be 50 years after he died when he wrote all those 'books'?
quote:This suggest that the Ottomans and Arabs did not know about Majid , until after Da Gama made his way to India between 1497-98. It was probably after Da Gama reached India, that Arab and Ottoman sailors found out about Majid's Kitab al-Fawa’id fi Usul ‘Ilm al-Bahr wa ’l-Qawa’id (Book of Useful Information on the Principles and Rules of Navigation), after this discovery they promptly send envoys to Majid in West Africa to get copies of his book. This is the most logical way the Arabs and Turks learned about the work of Majid, because it was not until after 1500 that this book became standard reading for Indian Ocean merchants.
. .
This is not a historical novel. You can't go around inventing whole scenarios for characters.
Ibn Majid's writings circled around the Swahili/Red Sea/ Arabian Sea/Persian Gulf world.
quote:In summary, their is nothing in the material you posted that proves that Da Gama did not get information about the Indian Ocean navigation from Majid in West Africa.
. .
There is no contemporaneous idea of ibn Majid being African. Stop refusing the details of his bio.
Da Gama had no idea how to get to India until he got it from the Swahili as explained above in post after post.
Ibn Majid and da Gama meeting each other would seem a Turk fabrication except that Arabs evidently accepted it. To the best of my meager research no writing by either man mentions the other.
Again, what is ibn Majid's full name? Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The identification of the West African ibn Majid is depended on the translations of Bazan because I do not read Russian.
Here is my copy of the Bazan article: R.A.G. Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam,,Muslim World, (1967) pp.284-292.
Above is the portion of the Rafael Bazan article which mentions Ibn Majid
The first indented paragraph top of p 285 right top:
quote: Arab georgraphical information reached Vasco da Gama through his consultation with Ahamad b. Majid, whom he met on the West Coast of Africa.
So, Bazan says da Gama got Arab information from Ibn Majid.
He claims da Gama met Ibn Majid on the West Coast of Africa rather than the East Coast as claimed by the earliest primary source, though still about 50 years after Majid's death.
Nowhere does Bazan say Vasco da Gama or Ibn Majid were Africans. They mererly met there.
So why do you have a video up saying Ibn Majid was African when no primary source or modern source says Ibn Majid was African??
They were on the West Coast of Africa so I must assume that he was West African. There are no primary sources on Majid. The only sources we have are second hand sources written by Turks 50 years after Majid's death. Primary sources are sources written at the time an event took place.
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Instead of doubling down on bad info just retract it and move on, there is no shame in that, great men of science do all the time,it's enough that Africans made use of the compass, astronomy was one of the courses taught at the university of Timbuktu,these people were among the greatest collectors and disseminators of information in the medieval world.
I don't see why it needs to be retracted until I see more evidence Majid was not a West Africans. Researchers have commented on the fact that the papers in the Kitab al-Fawa’id fi Usul ‘Ilm al-Bahr wa ’l-Qawa’id appear to have been written at different times and may have been papers written by other people published in the Kitab al-Fawa’id.
The most important part of the story is that Vasco da Gama learned about the West Indies. This along with Africans trading along the American coast shows that West African nautical sciences was not as primitive as people assume.
Add the naval knowledge of West Africans, to the presence of West African placenames in India add considerable support to Majid being a West Africa, who could have had knowledge about the region because of the West Africans who lived in towns with West African names in the Indian Ocean region.
Researchers have ignored the naval technology and navigation sciences of the West Africans, it is time we debate this knowledge. The fact that the Arabs thought that Majid led Da Gama to India, makes it clear to me they did not know too much about Majid until after Da Gama made his way to India. If Majid was such an important figure in Indian Ocean navigation prior to Da Gama's voyage, and was living in Oman,, he would have been well known and they would not have mixed up the Gujurati pilot that guided Da Gama to India, with the great navigator Ahmad ibn Majid.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Outward and Return voyages of the Portuguese India Run (Carreira da Índia). The Outward route of the South Atlantic westerlies that Bartolomeu Dias discovered in 1487, followed and explored by Vasco da Gama in the open ocean, would be developed in subsequent years.
We have already established from the Portuguese sources that Majid did not guide Da Gama, and the Arabs claim that Majid did not drink liquor. So stop promoting the claim Majid guided Da Gama to India when he didn't.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: If I wasn't clear before, the time period of habitation by moderns is on the Pleistocene - Holocene cusp.
Ok. The point being modern West Africans for the most part are recent migrants to the region.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
The point being W Afr was inhabited by E-M33 Africans in the Holocene - Pleistocene cusp and your precious Niger-Kordofanian speakers in W Afr have significant levels of E-M33 that westbound E Afrs did not give them. Monsoons 'pushed' some of them north into the Sahara others remained in W Afr throughout the Green Sahara period and became advanced enough to reduce iron when drying Saharans were still strictly stone age.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
. ... What do we discover from the material: 1) the Ottoman and Arabs, believe that Majid guided Da Gama to India, from Malindi; this is false it was a Gujurati pilot.
. .
Accounts of the legendary pilot differ.
* Gujerati (Indian black), * Xian, * Muslim.
Take your pick.
quote:Secondly, the first mention of Majid, according to your material was 50 years after his death by Ottoman historian Qutb al Din. There is no prior mention of Majid.
. .
How could the first mention of ibn Majid be 50 years after he died when he wrote all those 'books'?
quote:This suggest that the Ottomans and Arabs did not know about Majid , until after Da Gama made his way to India between 1497-98. It was probably after Da Gama reached India, that Arab and Ottoman sailors found out about Majid's Kitab al-Fawa’id fi Usul ‘Ilm al-Bahr wa ’l-Qawa’id (Book of Useful Information on the Principles and Rules of Navigation), after this discovery they promptly send envoys to Majid in West Africa to get copies of his book. This is the most logical way the Arabs and Turks learned about the work of Majid, because it was not until after 1500 that this book became standard reading for Indian Ocean merchants.
. .
This is not a historical novel. You can't go around inventing whole scenarios for characters.
Ibn Majid's writings circled around the Swahili/Red Sea/ Arabian Sea/Persian Gulf world.
quote:In summary, their is nothing in the material you posted that proves that Da Gama did not get information about the Indian Ocean navigation from Majid in West Africa.
. .
There is no contemporaneous idea of ibn Majid being African. Stop refusing the details of his bio.
Da Gama had no idea how to get to India until he got it from the Swahili as explained above in post after post.
Ibn Majid and da Gama meeting each other would seem a Turk fabrication except that Arabs evidently accepted it. To the best of my meager research no writing by either man mentions the other.
Again, what is ibn Majid's full name?
The books of Majid were usually hand copied. I have not seen any Arab writers discussing Majid's work prior the first mention of Majid,by Qutb al Din. Researchers and your own material make it clear it was was written 50 years after his death by Ottoman historian Qutb al Din. There is no prior mention of Majid by other Arab authors that I know of at this moment. As a result, there are no contemporary writings about Majid. Mterial written by someone after a person's death is not contemporary.
The only information we learn is that Da Gama claims that he met Majid in Africa. If he met him in Africa Majid was probably West African.
.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Oh good grief.
All books were hand copied before the printing press.
All the books ibn Majid wrote are contemporary to him.
OK let's learn about ibn Majid since bona fide Africans and their accomplishments don't seem to tantalize the forum. What is ibn Majid's full name?
Who was his father?
What was the family business?
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: The point being W Afr was inhabited by E-M33 Africans in the Holocene - Pleistocene cusp and your precious Niger-Kordofanian speakers in W Afr have significant levels of E-M33 that westbound E Afrs did not give them. Monsoons 'pushed' some of them north into the Sahara others remained in W Afr throughout the Green Sahara period and became advanced enough to reduce iron when drying Saharans were still strictly stone age.
This has nothing to do with this discussion.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
I'm sorry.
Would you like all offtopic matter raised by ARtU & me deleted or what?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: They were on the West Coast of Africa so I must assume that he was West African. There are no primary sources on Majid. The only sources we have are second hand sources written by Turks 50 years after Majid's death. Primary sources are sources written at the time an event took place.
1) If there are no primary sources saying Ibn Majid was an African or that he was in West Africa then you cannot assume he was African or set foot in West Africa.
2) The the 15th century Ottoman historian Qutb al Din was the first to say that Vasco da Gama meet Ibn Majid. Despite being around 50 years after his death this can be considered the primary source of the claim that they met
3) Peruvian Professor, Rafael Guevara Bazan President of the Instituto Peruano de Alto Estudios Islámicos, Lima, Peru wrote in 1971 (or 67?) that Vasco da Gama met Ahamad b. Majid met on the West Coast of Africa but Islamic Scholars say it was in Malindi, Kenya. This is regardless of whether or not he piloted the ship
4) So Clyde, a Peruvian Professor wrote something in 1967 or 71. That is not a primary source So why are you saying Ibn Majid met Vasco da Gama in West Africa based on a source that is not primary?
5) why would you have to assume that if two people were travelers that because they met at a location that therefore one of the people is native? Rafael Bazan did not say in his unsourced claim that Ibn Majid met Vasco da Gama somewhere in West Africa that therefore one can assume Ibn Majid was a native West African.
So if you don't have primary sources then why do you have a video up saying that the two met in West Africa and that Ibn Majid was an African?
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
There are no primary sources on Majid. The only sources we have are second hand sources written by Turks 50 years after Majid's death. Primary sources are sources written at the time an event took place.
Right, so you can't assume "They were on the West Coast of Africa so I must assume that he was West African" Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I'm sorry.
Would you like all offtopic matter raised by ARtU & me deleted or what?
No I don't do silly things like that.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: They were on the West Coast of Africa so I must assume that he was West African. There are no primary sources on Majid. The only sources we have are second hand sources written by Turks 50 years after Majid's death. Primary sources are sources written at the time an event took place.
1) If there are no primary sources saying Ibn Majid was an African or that he was in West Africa then you cannot assume he was African or set foot in West Africa.
2) The the 15th century Ottoman historian Qutb al Din was the first to say that Vasco da Gama meet Ibn Majid. Despite being around 50 years after his death this can be considered the primary source of the claim that they met
3) Peruvian Professor, Rafael Guevara Bazan President of the Instituto Peruano de Alto Estudios Islámicos, Lima, Peru wrote in 1971 (or 67?) that Vasco da Gama met Ahamad b. Majid met on the West Coast of Africa but Islamic Scholars say it was in Malindi, Kenya. This is regardless of whether or not he piloted the ship
4) So Clyde, a Peruvian Professor wrote something in 1967 or 71. That is not a primary source So why are you saying Ibn Majid met Vasco da Gama in West Africa based on a source that is not primary?
5) why would you have to assume that if two people were travelers that because they met at a location that therefore one of the people is native? Rafael Bazan did not say in his unsourced claim that Ibn Majid met Vasco da Gama somewhere in West Africa that therefore one can assume Ibn Majid was a native West African.
So if you don't have primary sources then why do you have a video up saying that the two met in West Africa and that Ibn Majid was an African?
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
There are no primary sources on Majid. The only sources we have are second hand sources written by Turks 50 years after Majid's death. Primary sources are sources written at the time an event took place.
Right, so you can't assume "They were on the West Coast of Africa so I must assume that he was West African"
I never said they were primary sources that was your comment.
I said that Bazan claims Da Gama met ibn Majid in West Africa, and that Majid had written a book about navigation around the West Indies Islands.( We can infer that Da Gama knew about Brazil, because of what he learned from Majid the Portuguese King pushed for the Tordesillas line, and why when why when the Spanished reach Brazil, Portuguese were already there,)
I see these comments as valid and reliable statements because the Spanish mention West Africans sailing in the Caribbean and out in the Atlantic Ocean after they disccovered America.
Due to West African placenames in the Pacific, West Africans had earlier sailed the region so Majid would have been able to know about navigation of the Indian Ocean from west African who had sailed the region.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
I never said they were primary sources that was your comment.
I said that Bazan claims Da Gama met ibn Majid in West Africa, and that Majid had written a book about navigation around the West Indies Islands. We can infer that Da Gama knew about Brazil.
How do you know this obscure Peruvian professor's claims are true when all the other authors say they met in East Africa or never met at all?
Why if you have not cited quotes of the earliest Islamic or Portrugese sources to verify if bazan's claims are credible?
But more importantly why do you state as fact in a video that Ibn Majid was not an Arabian but he was West African based on an unverified claim of Bazan that did not say the man was African he only made an unsourced claim that they met in West Africa??
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The identification of the West African ibn Majid is depended on the translations of Bazan because I do not read Russian.
Here is my copy of the Bazan article: R.A.G. Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam,,Muslim World, (1967) pp.284-292.
( Rafael Guevara Bazan President of the Instituto Peruano de Alto Estudios Islámicos, Lima, Peru)
Tukuler, this author Bazan says about Ibn Majid (above, upper right ) >
quote: He is regarded as the author of a handbook on navigation on the Indian Ocean, the Red Sea, the Persian Gulf, the sea of Southern China and the waters around the West Indies Islands ( Some West Africans consider him the inventor of the compass [5]
[5]See on Ibn Majid an interesting study of T.A. Shumusky, Tri neizuesttruie totsii Akhmada ibn Madzhida lotsmana Vasko da Gamui, Moscow, 1957, and R.A.G. Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam,,Muslim World, (1967) pp.284-292. In G. Ferrand, Introduction a l’astrnomie nautique des Arabes(, Paris,1928)
More super-obscure lost or fabricated references. " T.A. Shumusky"
This Muslim Peruvian professor reads Russian and that is his go to reference for Majid ?
Anway, the claim here is made that Ibn Majid wrote about places including "waters around the West Indies Islands"
What he wrote can be verified. Did he write anything about the "waters around the West Indies Islands" ?
It sounds dubious
As per the cliam that Ibn Majid was a native West African I have come across no author other than Clyde Winters who claims that
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
" West African canoes were as big as the boats sailed to America by Columbus"
.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: that westbound E Afrs did not give them.
^^^That's not true either, it's a baseless assumption on your part, because every E haplogroups originate in (North)Eastern Africa, so this scenario is possible too. Subsequent genetic drift and founder effect could explain the situation in modern time (after their arrival in West Africa), no population have only 1 haplogroup after all. You also don't present aDNA and nor any sources for your opinions, so I can only analyse your opinions as opinions without any data foundation to analyse.
Beside what I stated in this thread, I also already pointed out in another thread (discussed HERE) that modern West Africans from all E haplogroups are for the most part recent migrants from the Green Sahara carrying with them artifacts from the Green Sahara period in search for greener pasture when the Sahara became a desert.
In the link above we can read (from the Oxford source): The artefacts found at many early sites support a northern origin for SMA people in southern West Africa. Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Get real, eventually all haplogroups all over the world deep root in Africa. Before Tishkoff proposed SW Afr using genetics, archeo-anthropology pointed to E Afr. But on to the pertinent thing.
You keep ignoring Ounjougou. Why?
Because it shatters your doxa?
Is that why you clipped my quote so that it's dubious just what it is you're responding to?
Ounjougou near Bandiagara Dogon country, clearly in West Africa, with 11,400 year old pottery and TMRCA 11,684 - 26,171 year old E-M33. It is from there, when the moonsoon range moved north, that people also moved north having not a thing to do with Sahara bound East Africans and their later pottery style.
These are not assumptions nor are they my opinion. They reflect your 'study' is shallow and opinionated with personal bias in preference of your Niger-Congo E-P2 only doxa on West Africans.
I write that last paragraph because you don't know how to discuss a topic w/o injecting barbs at the person presenting it or just outright lying about what was presented.
That is very tiring because I for one don't have time to waste deflating our groundless reflection. Try to slow down and read and then ask me questions about what you don't get.
That way you may learn something you don't already know.
Me? Who are my teachers? All of them.
This topic needs its own thread. I will not hi-jack Clyde's thread with any more of it.
If you don't start a thread to discuss terminal Pleistocene to early and middle Holocene West Africa I will take it you aren't interested in learning anything outside your E Afr to Sahara pump doxa.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: These are not assumptions nor are they my opinion. They reflect your 'study' is shallow and opinionated with personal bias in preference of your Niger-Congo E-P2 only doxa on West Africans.
That's ridiculous. My analysis applies for all African E haplogroups in Africa and West Africa.
On this forum, I talk a lot about the P2/Pn2 bridge because it unites Niger-Kordofanian, Cushitic and Chadic speakers and it is the most widespread lineage in Africa but if it didn't exist I would talk about the E bridge (the E-M96 bridge).
The idea is that all A, B and E haplogroups are African haplogroups which appeared after the OOA migrations, so they represent the history of African people.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
This topic needs its own thread. I will not hi-jack Clyde's thread with any more of it.
If you don't start a thread to discuss terminal Pleistocene to early and middle Holocene West Africa I will take it you aren't interested in learning anything outside your E Afr to Sahara pump doxa.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
Beside the links provided above, the Green Sahara thread discussed those issues:
Feel free to post in it if you got something to say especially if backed by sources and data. You can always start your own threads of course.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
I've said what I had to say. It doesn't please you. I did not write in protest of any earlier thread you made.
I posted the below on p.1 of this thread and you reacted
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Late Niger-Kordofanian occupation is another lie. We have the archaeology. It shows by * pottery, * plant tendering and domestication, and * metallurgy what people were there.
Climatology also indicates these West African Pleistocene folk moved north with the monsoons that greened the Sahara for the Holocene.
As the Sahara re-desertified, some moved back to West Africa with their stone industry. But those who remained in W Afr during the greening had begun iron reduction already by then.
If you think you can refute the 'testimony' of Ounjougou or that Igbo Nigeria was into iron before Saharans retreated to the Sahel then YOU must broach a thread for it.
Everything else is ridiculous.
I will continue disputing the hollow assertion that W Afr had no non-Khoe non-Pygmy blacks before the Sahara dried out whereever it comes up no matter who posits it.
That concept comes from unsupportable doxa that pleases the ego.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: then YOU must broach a thread for it.
That's ridiculous, I already responded to your assertions in this thread with sources and data. You only have hot air.
Notice how I provided sources and data for my assertions.
I've discussed Ounjougou many times on this forum. Since it happened around 10 000BC, I consider it late events in the history of West Africa. Either Holocene or at the very end of the Pleistocene (I agreed with you above when you said cusp). So the point still stand about modern West Africans being for the most part recent migrants to the region. They are migrants from Northeastern Africa (maybe around Sudan). Which happens to be the geographic location of the Niger-Kordofanian language and the E-P2 Y-DNA lineage.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
Here's quote taken from Africa in History by Christopher Ehret (also see the 2014 book Africa's Development in Historical Perspective):
quote:The initial warming of climate in the Bølling-Allerød interstadial, 12,700-10,900 BCE, brought increased rainfall and warmer conditions in many African regions. Three sets of peoples, speaking languages of the three language families that predominate across the continent today, probably began their early expansions in this period. [...] Peoples of a second family, Niger-Kordofanian, spread across an emerging east-west belt of savanna vegetation from the eastern Sudan to the western Atlantic coast of Africa.
This relate the migration of Niger-Kordofanian speakers from Eastern Sudan toward the Atlantic coast at the beginning of the Holocene.
The same document also mention Ounjougou:
quote:In the tenth millennium in the savannas of modern-day Mali, communities speaking early daughter languages of proto-Niger-Congo, itself an offshoot of the Niger-Kordofanian family , began to intensively collect wild grains, among them probably fonio. Their Ounjougou culture is the earliest identified facies of the West African Microlithic,viii the archaeological complex associated with the early Niger-Congo peoples.ix Integral to their new subsistence system was their invention of the earliest ceramic technology in world history, between 10,000 and 9500 BCE. Rather than grinding whole grains into flour, the Ounjougou people apparently made the whole grains edible by cooking them in pots.
So here it associate the invention of ceramic to these Niger-Kordofanian migrants. Of course at that time they spoke an early daughter language of proto-Niger-Congo before the language differentions we know today.
This was all discussed before in the Green Sahara thread linked above as well as in this thread (CLICK HERE)
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The Mandinga controlled the port of Elmina, when the Portuguese arrived in the area.
The Italians may have also known about Brazil. In the Andrea Map of 1448, they depict an Island 1500 miles from the Cape Verde Island. A notation on the Map says this Island is 1500 miles away. This is interesting because that is just about the distance from Cape Verde to Brazil.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Mandinga controlled the port of Elmina, when the Portuguese arrived in the area.
No the 'Mandinga' never controlled ElMina.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Mandinga controlled the port of Elmina, when the Portuguese arrived in the area.
No the 'Mandinga' never controlled ElMina.
You're thinking about El Mina Castle. You do know that the port was already settled when the Portuguese arrived. In fact the Portuguese had to "compensate" the local people so they could build the fort. At this time, although most of the locals were Akan speakers, it was part of the Mali/Songhay Empire.
Posted by Dead (Member # 21978) on :
Why were all the islands around Africa first settled or founded by Europeans (or Arabs) if Africans sailed all over the globe, reaching America in ancient times? Shouldn't they have settled the islands closest to them first if they were great sea-farers?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Clyde I already wrote about Euros having to appease Ghanaians to occupy the island which they had to lease and erect fort(s).
The coast of Ghana was never Mandinga.
Here on ES you will not get away with altering the facts of reality.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Mandinga controlled the port of Elmina, when the Portuguese arrived in the area.
No the 'Mandinga' never controlled ElMina.
You're thinking about El Mina Castle. You do know that the port was already settled when the Portuguese arrived. In fact the Portuguese had to "compensate" the local people so they could build the fort. At this time, although most of the locals were Akan speakers, it was part of the Mali/Songhay Empire.
Why were all the islands around Africa first settled or founded by Europeans (or Arabs) if Africans sailed all over the globe, reaching America in ancient times? Shouldn't they have settled the islands closest to them first if they were great sea-farers?
These Islands are near East Africa. Also I think you need to check the archaeology for these places. The original inhabitants were not Europeans and Arabs. For a long time people had believed that Africans were not the first inhabitants of Madagascar, now we know they were.
Why were all the islands around Africa first settled or founded by Europeans (or Arabs) if Africans sailed all over the globe, reaching America in ancient times? Shouldn't they have settled the islands closest to them first if they were great sea-farers?
. .
Globe sailing ancient Africans is no part of authentic African history.
Nor do we find sea trade between say Atlantic speaking Africans and coastal Angola nor sea trade between Angola and Mozambique.
I don't know why but some blacks with a be-like complex feel bad unless they turn Africa(ns) into ebony reflections of Euros and their accomplishments.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Clyde I already wrote about Euros having to appease Ghanaians to occupy the island which they had to lease and erect fort(s).
The coast of Ghana was never Mandinga.
Here on ES you will not get away with altering the facts of reality.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Mandinga controlled the port of Elmina, when the Portuguese arrived in the area.
No the 'Mandinga' never controlled ElMina.
You're thinking about El Mina Castle. You do know that the port was already settled when the Portuguese arrived. In fact the Portuguese had to "compensate" the local people so they could build the fort. At this time, although most of the locals were Akan speakers, it was part of the Mali/Songhay Empire.
Akan claim they were part of the Mali Empire.
Are you sure they were not?
quote: History of Ghana Medieval Ghana (4th - 13th Century): The Republic of Ghana is named after the medieval Ghana Empire of West Africa. The actual name of the Empire was Wagadugu. Ghana was the title of the kings who ruled the kingdom. It was controlled by Sundiata in 1240 AD, and absorbed into the larger Mali Empire. (Mali Empire reached its peak of success under Mansa Musa around 1307.) Geographically, the old Ghana is 500 miles north of the present Ghana, and occupied the area between Rivers Senegal and Niger. Some inhabitants of present Ghana had ancestors linked with the medieval Ghana. This can be traced down to the Mande and Voltaic peoeple of Northern Ghana--Mamprussi, Dagomba and the Gonja. Anecdotal evidence connected the Akans to this great Empire. The evidence lies in names like Danso shared by the Akans of present Ghana and Mandikas of Senegal/Gambia who have strong links with the Empire. There is also the matrilineal connection. ...MORE http://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/history/
Why were all the islands around Africa first settled or founded by Europeans (or Arabs) if Africans sailed all over the globe, reaching America in ancient times? Shouldn't they have settled the islands closest to them first if they were great sea-farers?
. .
Globe sailing ancient Africans is no part of authentic African history.
Nor do we find sea trade between say Atlantic speaking Africans and coastal Angola nor sea trade between Angola and Mozambique.
I don't know why but some blacks with a be-like complex feel bad unless they turn Africa(ns) into ebony reflections of Euros and their accomplishments.
You said:
quote: Globe sailing ancient Africans is no part of authentic African history.
This is a very broad statement. Don't you think that you should say it is not the history of Africa taught or written by Europeans. W.E.B. DuBois, J.A. Rogers and John Jackson, wrote about the various Africa civilizations established around the world.
They were especially consistent in writing that Africans had been in the Americas before Columbus.
So when you say "authentic history" aren't you talking about the history Europeans write?
. .
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Sorry Clyde you'll have to do better than grandstanding on black sympathy. Readers of ES deserve better than 'a-black-man says-so-so-it's-right/a-white-man-said so-so-it's wrong.'
That's so funny it'd get you laughed out the classroom needless to say out of any collegial conference discussions too.
I stand by everything I said including no support for globe sailing ancient Africans. Medieval East Africans sailed the Indian Ocean as far as the East Indies. Imperial Age West Africans crossed the Atlantic to northern South America and the Caribbean.
Mandinga and Akan are entirely different languages and ethnies. Akan's may've once been within orbit of the multi- ethnic Mali empire but Mali has not a thing to do with leasing ElMina.
This is factual history, linguistics, and ethnography not historical fiction built off of logical suppositions that can hold true regardless of facts.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Mandinga and Akan are entirely different languages and ethnies. Akan's may've once been within orbit of the multi- ethnic Mali empire but Mali has not a thing to do with leasing ElMina.
This is factual history, linguistics, and ethnography not historical fiction built off of logical suppositions that can hold true regardless of facts.
I never said they leased El Mina from the Malians, I said the Portuguese paid the local people (Akan) compensation to build the Castle/Fort. How is an historical fact relating to relationship between the Akan and Protuguese historical fiction?
.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Here we go with the peregrinations over what you said. You can't tie me up with the run around. I invite all readers to simply look at your posts and what you said about who the Portuguese dealt with regarding ElMina. My time is too precious for here we go round the mulberry bush antics.
Posted by kdolo (Member # 21830) on :
Tukuler suffers from Eurocentrism on thr brain.
He simply cannot accept any evidence unless presented by Europeans or interpretations of evidemce unless blessed by Europeans.
He even refuses to use his own reasoning and commen sense to connect the dots...
Tukuler, this is why we are often so hard on certain Africans.
Your minds, though perfectly functional and even elite, have a tendency towards extreme inflexibility. Its as if the first idea that enters it, forever after pretedetermines whatever else is allowed to enter it.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Your mind is impedded by hero worship and racial solidarity simplicities and unable to process data from various sources to synthesize independent analysis that can withstand the strictest of academic probing.
The proof is you simply cheerlead like a troll contributing not one sentence of information on the thread's topic or its spinoffs. DISMISSED! Posted by kdolo (Member # 21830) on :
Stop projecting.
Reread what you just said.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by kdolo: Tukuler suffers from Eurocentrism on thr brain.
He simply cannot accept any evidence unless presented by Europeans or interpretations of evidemce unless blessed by Europeans.
He even refuses to use his own reasoning and commen sense to connect the dots...
Tukuler, this is why we are often so hard on certain Africans.
Your minds, though perfectly functional and even elite, have a tendency towards extreme inflexibility. Its as if the first idea that enters it, forever after pretedetermines whatever else is allowed to enter it.
You might be on to something. Tukuler says writing about Black history in other lands, besides Africa is not authentic history when Afro-Americans like DuBois wrote GLOBAL HISTORY of Black and African people. This indicates aherence to Eurocentric history in relation to Africans. .
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
quote:Tukuler says writing about Black history in other lands, besides Africa is not authentic history
This is your second and last warning.
I'm not going to allow you to lie on me and call it freedom of speech.
I have and will continue to use Rogers, Hansberry, Jackson, DuBois, deGraft-Johnson, Chancellor Wms., Clegg, Lawrence, van Sertima, Rashidi, Marniche- Reynolds, or any other author and I will be critical of them where they are outdated.
This is not religion and I am not bound by your doxa.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by ausar:
quote:Tukuler says writing about Black history in other lands, besides Africa is not authentic history
This is your second and last warning.
I'm not going to allow you to lie on me and call it freedom of speech.
I have and will continue to use Rogers, Hansberry, Jackson, DuBois, deGraft-Johnson, Chancellor Wms., or any other author and I will be critical of them where they are outdated.
This is not religion and I am not bound by your doxa.
Why were all the islands around Africa first settled or founded by Europeans (or Arabs) if Africans sailed all over the globe, reaching America in ancient times? Shouldn't they have settled the islands closest to them first if they were great sea-farers?
. .
Globe sailing ancient Africans is no part of authentic African history.
Nor do we find sea trade between say Atlantic speaking Africans and coastal Angola nor sea trade between Angola and Mozambique.
I don't know why but some blacks with a be-like complex feel bad unless they turn Africa(ns) into ebony reflections of Euros and their accomplishments.
Posted by kdolo (Member # 21830) on :
evident in Tukulers behavior, many suffer from extremely low self esteem and have internalized white supremacy to an extreme...he simply cannot fathom West Africans reaching the New World before Europeans even though the cumulative evidence is overwhelming.
EDIT: If you want to do psycho-analysis get a psych degree.
Also as explained earlier I have championed W Afrs in the Americas before 1500 here on ES for years.
You will not be allowed to dump on Africans the same way white and other racists do.
On the one hand you denigrate Africans as incapable of the simplest of things that all other peoples are capable of on the other hand in this instance you counter your own thesis and agree with me that W Afr made trans-Atlantic voyages.
This is nothing but trolling and will not be tolerated.
[ 23. April 2015, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: ausar ]
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
The fact is that I have extensively referenced Black Scholars with actual quotes and full passages much more than you have here on ES. That's a fact.
I know of no ancient global voyaging by any continent's people.
Nor are there any writings or traditions of sea trade between those regional empires with continent spanning trade networks -- done by both riverine transport and overland porterage -- that I mentioned in reply to Dead.
Instead of immediately over reacting slow down and try to digest or at least ask me to explain what you don't understand.
Posted by kdolo (Member # 21830) on :
I will happily explain my point of view if you can ask the moderator to cease the censorship and stop altering my posts....
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
If you can write without trying to cut me down you won't be deleted.
You can't just say anything. Don't you know FREEDOM OF SPEECH tenders responsibilty on the part of the speaker? Tha's not censorship. That's putting out the trash, troll.
The days of sophmoric juvenile posting on ES is over.
No go make yourself cognizant of what I have actually posted these 10 long years.
You haven't been here long enough nor have you GOOGLE or internal searched my view on this or any other topic. You just troll a baseless character assassination.
That's not flying on ES anymore as long as I can help it. I don't read all posts but when something whack comes to my attention it will be gone (and all replies to it as well).
Posted by kdolo (Member # 21830) on :
Ahaaaaaa !!!!
Agent.
Too bad.....
The great debates will migrate elsewhere....
ARDO EDIT OK don't say I didn't give you a chance.
I'm putting out the trash stinking up the place.
Consider yourself banned along with Mike111 Any and all posts by you will be deleted as will all replies made to you before I could get around to deleting your original post.
Go migrate elsewhere ... now.
Your only alternative is to calm the **** down.
[ 23. April 2015, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: ausar ]
Posted by kdolo (Member # 21830) on :
All my posts have been saved along time.ago.....and will migrate to the new discussion space.....
Go ahead and ban me.
Very African dictator like....
peace out !
ARDO EDIT OK good now keep your word and go away already because you have nothing to contribute about Egyptian and/or African studies or disciplines backing up the responsible independent theses ESers post here.
[ 23. April 2015, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: ausar ]
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Vasco da Gama never set foot in West Africa. He merely sailed around Africa, much of it far from the coast. This is documented in journals.
Da Gama made a stop on his first of his three voyages in Cape Verde for a week to gather firewwod, fresh water and food. Although Africans or Arabs may have been on the islands at an earlier time when the Portugese first arrived there 41 years before before da Gama they found Cape Verde uninhabited.
Da Gama also ported ship at the bay of St. Helena on the Western Cape of South Africa and stayed there for a week where ther was an encounter with the Khoikhoi who threw a spear at him at one point wounding him in the thigh
Vasco da Gama never set foot in West Africa. So he did not meet Ibn Majid there.
and may never have met him at all even in Malindi, Kenya
/close thread
Posted by kdolo (Member # 21830) on :
Hahahahahajajajajahahahahah
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
I hope you have an extensive bibliography of da Gama biography to support your 'never stepped foot' assertion.
Ibn Majid in West Africa, less lone of West Africa, is totally unsupported by contemporaneous writings (eg. his own 30 some writings; his full name; his place of birth; his family history for 3 generations).
No evidence of ibn Majid and da Gama ever meeting each other in the self authored works of either man. Any Indian Ocean pilot worth his sea salt would be consulting ibn Majid's works as da Gama's 'Calicut' pilot must've done.
A contemporaneous, but after ibn Majid's death, account offered a meeting between the two men but that's an urban legend.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
This is a very broad statement. Don't you think that you should say it is not the history of Africa taught or written by Europeans. W.E.B. DuBois, J.A. Rogers and John Jackson, wrote about the various Africa civilizations established around the world.
bottom line>
No afrocentric author, including the above say Ibn Majid was African
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I hope you have an extensive bibliography of da Gama biography to support your 'never stepped foot' assertion.
I have examined numerous biographies of Vasco da Gama.
But I will not make a bibliography to support my assertion that Vasco da Gama was not in West Africa.
He wasn't in Alaska either. Do I have to make a bibliography for the infinate places he wasn't in?
The idea that Vasco da Gama was in West Africa is not in his biographies. Therefore if someone wants to say he was in West Africa based on some complete unknown Russian named "T.A. Shumursky" the burden is on them to provide a credible source> one who is not a completely unknown person who doesn't even have an academic title or affiliation to any institution or organization and if it was a real person probably a white boy by the sound of the name.
As I stated, da Gama was on the Western Coast of Africa as everybody knows, where he came into contact with Khoikhoi people
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Feelin' stingy, eh?
Oh alright. How about 3 references?
No you don't have to share. I recall somewhere that he anchored(?) near Sierra Leone (maybe in a passage posted above, along with the Khoe repulsing his landing party in the very south of Africa) iinm.
Alaska is irrelevant because it is not en route from Portugal to Africa and on to India, Sekhmet.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Oh alright. How about 3 references?
3 references for something that didn't happen?
I give you one, although I looked at many
The Career and Legend of Vasco Da Gama By Sanjay Subrahmanyam Cambridge University
I skipped the beginning where he talks about opera, read from page 25 "Heritage of Santiago"
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
A crumb. Oh thankee ma'am. Is it Indocentric?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
The pilot was Indian according to Clyde so it fits.
Note, in UCLA historian's Sanjay Subrahmanyam's book I was looking at da Gama's background, not about Ibn Majid. However if you look up in Majid in the book he debunks the da Gama connection ( but the full text in googlebooks is not available)
Something I did not research was if there was anything in any of Ibn Majid's books, that if potentially read by him or the plot was specifically valuable in detail to da Gama's navigation route
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I hope you have an extensive bibliography of da Gama biography to support your 'never stepped foot' assertion.
I have examined numerous biographies of Vasco da Gama.
But I will not make a bibliography to support my assertion that Vasco da Gama was not in West Africa.
He wasn't in Alaska either. Do I have to make a bibliography for the infinate places he wasn't in?
The idea that Vasco da Gama was in West Africa is not in his biographies. Therefore if someone wants to say he was in West Africa based on some complete unknown Russian named "T.A. Shumursky" the burden is on them to provide a credible source> one who is not a completely unknown person who doesn't even have an academic title or affiliation to any institution or organization and if it was a real person probably a white boy by the sound of the name.
As I stated, da Gama was on the Western Coast of Africa as everybody knows, where he came into contact with Khoikhoi people
LOL. West Africa is where Da Gama made his reputation as an effective military commander. I am not going to waste my time providing the literature,because this is not my concern; but I can tell you, you have not read enough literature, including on the internet to say Da Gama did not play an important role in West African affairs.
.
Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Russian website, article seems to about Molook Attar perfume and Arabian trading. I didn't see the name Ibn Majid but it's the in the portrait URL
not finding many artist depictions
May I ask, who made the book covers, you're showing?
Nobody really knows how Majid looked. The Turks did not find out about Majid until Da Gama arrived in India.
The Turks don't mention Majid until 50 years after his death, from what I have seen so far the Persians and Arabs don't mention him either. It appears to me that Majid's book only became popular after the Turks learned about his writings from da Gama. After they got Majid's book from West Africa, where Majid lived, navigators began to use his book to effectively sail and navigate in the Indian Ocean.
.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: After they got Majid's book from West Africa, where Majid lived
Clyde, stop making up stuff, thanks that is complete nonsense
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Vasco da Gama was an unknown knight in the the Order of Santiago. The Order of Santiago did have an expedition to Congo in 1491. They even Christianed and knighted some Africans in the 1590s and changed their names to Spanish ones, "Luis Peres" and "Pedro da Silva". However there is no record of Vasco da Gama being a part of it. However even if he was that is not evidence he meet a Muslim there named Ibn Majid who was writing navigation books in West Africa and not evidence that if he was there it means he was a native of West Africa.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: May I ask, who made the book covers, you're showing?
I don't know the names. The paintigs are of the imagination of modern artists depicting a 15th century navigator born in Oman, Ibn Majid. The difference with painting that Clyde shows in his video however, is that the artist intended to depict a Moroccan man. The painting has no connection, even in the imagination of the artist or even to West Africa
Clyde, you don't have a better copy of that horrible Bazan xerox?
Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: May I ask, who made the book covers, you're showing?
I don't know the names. The paintigs are of the imagination of modern artists depicting a 15th century navigator born in Oman, Ibn Majid. The difference with painting that Clyde shows in his video however, is that the artist intended to depict a Moroccan man. The painting has no connection, even in the imagination of the artist or even to West Africa
Clyde, you don't have a better copy of that horrible Bazan xerox?
I already suspected an imagination. Could be Eurocentric? We already know that eurocentrism excludes a "black type looking" Nortwest African.
This method is deep rooted, and old racism. Still vivid.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: I already suspected an imagination. Could be Eurocentric?
The painting might be Russian. If it was made by a European trying to depict an Arab it is not necessarily "Eurocentric". Likewise if an African American made a picture of Napoleon it would not necessarily be "Afrocentric". The book cover was probably made by a Malaysian. Malaysia is 60% Muslim. The cover might be Malaycentric but not necessarily. You would have to run tests on it.
There are no Afrocentric scholars that say Ibn Majid was West African, Clyde made that up
His source? An unknown Russian writer in 1957
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters;
What do we discover from the material: 1) the Ottoman and Arabs, believe that Majid guided Da Gama to India, from Malindi; this is false it was a Gujurati pilot....
The information about Ahmad ibn Majid of West Africa , comes from T.A. Shumusky, Tri neizuesttruie totsii Akhmada ibn Madzhida lotsmana Vasko da Gamui, Moscow, 1957....
The identification of the West African ibn Majid is depended on the translations of Bazan because I do not read Russian.
T.A. Shumusky, Tri neizuesttruie totsii Akhmada ibn Madzhida lotsmana Vasko da Gamui, Moscow, 1957.
^^^ I'm trying to translate this
I get >>
___________________________
Tri neizuesttruie totsii Akhmada ibn Madzhida lotsmana Vasko da Gamui
Три неизуесттруие туции Ахмада ибн Маджида лоцмана Васко да Гаммой
Three neizuesttruie tution Ahmad ibn Majid pilot Vasco da Gama
___________________________
^^^^ the part I can't get>
neizuesttruie tution
However, Clyde says Ibn Majid was not the pilot of Ibn Majid. This Russian item seems to say he was
Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: I already suspected an imagination. Could be Eurocentric?
The painting might be Russian. If it was made by a European trying to depict an Arab it is not necessarily "Eurocentric". Likewise if an African American made a picture of Napoleon it would not necessarily be "Afrocentric". The book cover was probably made by a Malaysian. Malaysia is 60% Muslim. The cover might be Malaycentric but not necessarily. You would have to run tests on it.
There are no Afrocentric scholars that say Ibn Majid was West African, Clyde made that up
So if it was made by an Sudani trying to depict an Arab it wouldn't be necessarily Afrocentric?
So if a Malaysian can give his own little spin and twist, how come you have a problem with it when an African American depict him "more black looking". After all, these types such such as Clyde showed were part of the Moorish empire.
It's so amusing everytime, you get almost frustrated when a picture appears "too black for your taste, as in African". Where did you develop this tendency? I mean you are known for this legacy.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
So if a Malaysian can give his own little spin and twist, how come you have a problem with it when an African American depict him "more black looking". After all, these types such such as Clyde showed were part of the Moorish empire.
I have no problem if Clyde puts up this picture and says maybe Ibn Majid looked like this Moroccan man painted by Josep Tapiro y Baro,
But he didn't say that
The artist's intent should be mentioned
_______________________________
Ibn Majid wrote about forty works of poetry and prose
If he was African that would be revealed in in his writing
__________________________
Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
So if a Malaysian can give his own little spin and twist, how come you have a problem with it when an African American depict him "more black looking". After all, these types such such as Clyde showed were part of the Moorish empire.
I have no problem if Clyde puts up this picture and says maybe Ibn Majid looked like this Moroccan man painted by Josep Tapiro y Baro,
But he didn't say that
_______________________________
Ibn Majid wrote about forty works of poetry and prose
If he was African that would be revelaed in in his writing
See, this is where eurocentric gets fit, they don't have the tendency and or intention to fairly credit Africa and Africans. It's always a sneaky method to claim the African legacy. We see this also in recent doctrines posted by you, over several years.
So I actually don't expect them to write honest about him. Clyde however did cite a scholar, T.A. Shumusky, when you then quickly dismiss. My question then is, how come...?
quote: The Turks claim that Ahmad ibn Majid was an Omani. Other researchers claim Vasco Da Gama met Majid in West Africa. The information about Ahmad ibn Majid of West Africa , comes from T.A. Shumusky, Tri neizuesttruie totsii Akhmada ibn Madzhida lotsmana Vasko da Gamui ( Moscow, 1957), and R.A.G. Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam,,Muslim World, (1967) pp.284-292.
The Turk account of Majid , comes from The Ottoman conquest of the Yemen , this book discusses the Portuguese entry into the Indian Ocean . It was written 50 years after the Da Gama voyage, and the death of Majid. This authors claim that Majid was drinking with a Frank merchant and Da Gama, and gave him the secrets to navigation in the Indian Ocean this seems highly unlikely for two reasons. First, where did this drinking take place, between Da Gama, the German and Majid; was it in Oman or East Africa. This sounds illogical because how did Da Gama, get to Oman, if he didn’t know the way until he was instructed by Majid in navigation of the Indian Ocean.
[...]
-- Clyde Winters
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
So I actually don't expect them to write honest about him. Clyde however did cite a scholar, T.A. Shumusky, when you then quickly dismiss. My question then is, how come...?
1) Because I find no evidence that T.A. Shumusky is or was a European scholar or even existed but he may have
2) Because Clyde didn't read Shumusky
3) Because the Shumusky title refers to Ibn Majid as being the pilot of Vascao da Gama and Clyde says he wasn't the pilot
Again, Clyde didn't read his own white source and doesn't have it even in Russian
4) More importantly because Peruvian professor Bazan who cited Shumusky as his source says that Shumusky said Vasco da Gama met Ibn Majid in West Africa, even that does not mean Ibn Majid was West African. Read: Rafael Bazan did not say Ibn Majid was a native West African
5) Because Ibn Majid wrote about 40 works and if he was African it would be apparent
6) Because Clyde has cited no primary or old 15th-16th century source for his claim that Ibn Majid met da Gama at any time other than Turkish sources
7) No prominent afrocentric writers has said Ibn Majid was West African
8) Historians don't say Ibn majid invented the compass. They say he perfected it's use as a navigational tool although it had already been used as a navigational tool by 11th centry Song Dynasty Chinese
Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
So I actually don't expect them to write honest about him. Clyde however did cite a scholar, T.A. Shumusky, when you then quickly dismiss. My question then is, how come...?
1) Because I find no evidence that T.A. Shumusky is or was a European scholar or even existed but he may have
2) Because Clyde didn't read Shumusky
3) Because the Shumusky title refers to Ibn Majid as being the pilot of Vascao da Gama and Clyde says he wasn't the pilot
Again, Clyde didn't read his own white source and doesn't have it even in Russian
4) More importantly because Peruvian professor Bazan who cited Shumusky as his source says that Shumusky said Vasco da Gama met Ibn Majid in West Africa, even that does not mean Ibn Majid was West African. Read: Rafael Bazan did not say Ibn Majid was a native West African
5) Because Ibn Majid wrote about 40 works and if he was African it would be apparent
6) Because Clyde has cited no primary or old 15th-16th century source for his claim that Ibn Majid met da Gama at any time other than Turkish sources
7) No prominent afrocentric writers has said Ibn Majid was West African
8) Historians don't say Ibn majid invented the compass. They say he perfected it's use as a navigational tool although it had already been used as a navigational tool by 11th centry Song Dynasty Chinese
Those seem like valid points, however, you say Shumusky likely didn't exist, yet Clyde had not read his book etc.... That's a confusing part. Btw, how do you know what Clyde did or didn't read?
Is the Peruvian professor R.A.G. Bazan the white source you are referring at? Did you read his source?
I am not defending or attacking nothing, I merely have questions.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: May I ask, who made the book covers, you're showing?
I don't know the names. The paintigs are of the imagination of modern artists depicting a 15th century navigator born in Oman, Ibn Majid. The difference with painting that Clyde shows in his video however, is that the artist intended to depict a Moroccan man. The painting has no connection, even in the imagination of the artist or even to West Africa
Clyde, you don't have a better copy of that horrible Bazan xerox?
No I don't have a better copy of the Bazan article, I made this copy back in 1975 or 76.This makes this copy around 30 years old.
The Moroccan man was a good example of how Majid may have looked since he was probably West African. You forget Blacks were the dominant Arab/Moorish group in Morocco.
Let's face it, if Majid was Yemeni, he would not look like the pictures used to depict Majid on the bboks you post. The Yemeni were very dark back before the Ottoman Conquest
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Lioness is correct Majid did not invent the compass he perfected it. The West African origin of the compass and Majid is not a bust. The only way Da Gama got to India was probably through the knowledge he learned from Majid the West African navigator. What do we know about Captain Da Gama. First, we know that Da Gama traveled up and down the West African coast for years, before he attempted to circumnavigate Africa to reach India. . Secondly, when Da Gama attempted to travel to India, he didn't go by way of the Meditteranean like other Europeans he went around Africa.
You say Majid was born in Oman. You shoudl ask yourself this question, if Majid was born in Oman, how did Da Gama know that he could circle Africa, safely and reach India?
But just for argument sake, lets assume that Da Gama met Majid in Oman.Think about the reality, Da Gama did not know how to get to Oman, if he did not meet Majid until he got to Oman, how did he travel around Africa to Oman--blindly. This suggest to me that Da Gama's account that he met Ahamd ibn Majid in West Africa, is the only way we can explain Da Gama reaching India safely.
Meeting Majid in West Africa, would explain how Majid told Da Gama about navigation in the Indian Ocean, that's how Da Gama knew he could find a Guide to help him make his way along the East African coast up to Oman and India.
Thirdly, why would Da Gama mention that Majid also told him about navigation among the Caribbean Islands, if Majid lived in Oman. Living in Oman, why would a navigator be interested in trading in the Caribbean when the main centers of trade at that time lied in the East.
No matter how you look at it, Da Gama meeting Majid in West Africa, has more currency than the Oman story, simply because it does not explain why Da Gama went around Africa in the first place, if he did not already know he had a great chance in sailing to India.
The Turks claim that Ahmad ibn Majid was an Omani. Other researchers claim Vasco Da Gama met Majid in West Africa. The information about Ahmad ibn Majid of West Africa , comes from T.A. Shumusky, Tri neizuesttruie totsii Akhmada ibn Madzhida lotsmana Vasko da Gamui ( Moscow, 1957), and R.A.G. Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam,,Muslim World, (1967) pp.284-292.
The Turk account of Majid , comes from The Ottoman conquest of the Yemen , this book discusses the Portuguese entry into the Indian Ocean . It was written 50 years after the Da Gama voyage. This authors claim that Majid was drinking with a Frank merchant and Da Gama, and gave him the secrets to navigation in the Indian Ocean this seems highly unlikely for two reasons. First, where did this drinking take place, between Da Gama, the German and Majid; was it in Oman or East Africa. This sounds illogical because how did Da Gama, get to Oman, if he didn’t know the way until he was instructed by Majid in navigation of the Indian Ocean.
Secondly, Da Gama made it clear he got an Indian pilot at Malindi to guide him to India. Ask yourself, how would Da Gama have known he would need an Indian pilot to reach India, because they used the Monsoons. It was knowledge of the monsoons that made Da Gama's voyage to India smooth, but his return to Africa without a guide horrendous.
This makes the Turk story about Majid unlikely. Since it was written 50 years after the voyage of Da Gama,the Turks could have gotten a copy of Majid’s book by this time, and made up the story about the Omani origins of ibn Majid.
I believe that Da Gama learned about the West Indies and Indian Ocean trade from a West African named Ahmad ibn Majid, because of 1)the Treaty of Tordesillas, and 2) Da Gama being chosen to lead the expedition to India.
Vasco Da Gama had extensive experience sailing along the West African coast. This would have given him enough time to have met Ahmad ibn Majid. It is obvious that the Portuguese probably knew more about the New World than they let on. Their desire to draw the Tordesillas Line which gave Portugal Brazil is quite interesting because, Brazil was a strong center of African colonization since the expedition of Abubakari, and since there was frequent trade between West Africa and the Americas when Columbus reached America, Da Gama due to his relationship with Majid would have already known how valuable Brazil was to any future power in the Americas. Da Gama probably passed this on to the Portuguese King, who pushed for the Tordesillas line.
Secondly Da Gama was a junior naval officer, but he was given Command of the expedition to India. This was strange because they already had an experienced officer who had sailed around the South Africa.
Bartolome Dias is already a veteran navigator he had rounded the Cape of Good Hope in South Africa 10 years earlier. But he was not given the Command of the expedition to India, the Command of this expedition was given to Da Gama . We must assume that King Manuel I , felt Da Gama had nautical knowledge.that would help him to be successful in this expedition. Da Gama must of had some special knowledge about trade in the Indian Ocean region that would make him more successful than Dias. This information may have been what he learned about the trade from ibn Majid.
In summary I believe that Da Gama learned about trade in the West indies and Indian Ocean from a West African named Ahmad ibn Majid. And because of this Knowledge the Portuguese were able to gain Brazil, and Da Gama was given Command of the expedition to India.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: 1) Because I find no evidence that T.A. Shumusky is or was a European scholar or even existed but he may have
2) Because Clyde didn't read Shumusky
3) Because the Shumusky title refers to Ibn Majid as being the pilot of Vascao da Gama and Clyde says he wasn't the pilot
Again, Clyde didn't read his own white source and doesn't have it even in Russian
4) More importantly because Peruvian professor Bazan who cited Shumusky as his source says that Shumusky said Vasco da Gama met Ibn Majid in West Africa, even that does not mean Ibn Majid was West African. Read: Rafael Bazan did not say Ibn Majid was a native West African
5) Because Ibn Majid wrote about 40 works and if he was African it would be apparent
6) Because Clyde has cited no primary or old 15th-16th century source for his claim that Ibn Majid met da Gama at any time other than Turkish sources
7) No prominent afrocentric writers has said Ibn Majid was West African
8) Historians don't say Ibn majid invented the compass. They say he perfected it's use as a navigational tool although it had already been used as a navigational tool by 11th centry Song Dynasty Chinese
I did not dismiss T.A. Shumusky, Tri neizuesttruie totsii Akhmada ibn Madzhida lotsmana Vasko da Gamui, Moscow(, 1957), I said that I don’t speak Russian. And I have not been able to find the book. But I am intrigued by the mention of Bazan that Vasco da Gama met Ahmad ibn Majid in West Africa, as I said earlier given the fact that Da Gama was chosen for the voyage to India, and the Portuguese making the Treaty of Tordesillas. These two things are very important.
Granted the Portuguese had rounded the Cape of Good Hope, but they knew nothing about the countries and city-states beyond South Africa. Yet, Da Gama sailed to Malindi on the East African coast , directly from Lisbon safely. In addition, instead of Da Gama sailing aimlessly into the Indian Ocean in search of India, he waited until the right monsoon season to make his way, again, safely to India. This makes it clear to me he had prior knowledge about the Indian Ocean trade which he may have got from ibn Majid.
Secondly, people have always wondered why the Portuguese specifically made the Treaty of Tordesillas that gave them the territory that encompassed Brazil, and was not concerned with any other territory. Again, we must look to Majid being in West Africa to have told him about the lucrative trade that existed in this part of the New World. Prior knowledge of Brazil would also explain why as soon as the Spanish arrived in Brazil in 1500, the Portuguese were already there.
I just finished reading G. Ferrand, Introduction a l’astrnomie nautique des Arabes(, Paris,1928). The book is most interesting it acknowledges that the Portuguese writing of Vasco da Gama’s voyage to India, make it clear that it was a Gujurati that led him to India. Furthermore, they claim that the King of Malindi, recommended the Gujarati to lead the Da Gama. As a result, whenever they substitute Majid’s name as the pilot, the non-Portuguese, European writers always put the name in [ ] brackets to indicate they are adding the name to the text.
As a result, although I do not read Russia, I can read Portuguese and when I get the time I hope I can find the original Portuguese biographies of Da Gama and read them for myself. It is clear that Majid’s Kitab al-Fawa’id fi Usul ‘Ilm al-Bahr wa ’l-Qawa’id, was a popular book on navigation in the Indian Ocean, it was not known before 1490 and maybe as late as 1500. After reading Ferrand’s book I did not see any source that mentions Majid’s Kitab al-Fawa’id, before the Ottoman historian Qutb al Din mentions him, 50 years after Majid had died.
Most researchers agree that it was Qutb al-Din, who claimed Da Gama met Majid. This is a 16th Century source you are already proven wrong in your comment that no sources dating to the 16th Century places Majid with Da Gama.
I have not seen G.R. Tibbets work, but Ferrand did not mention one Arab or Persian author that mentions Majid during his lifetime. I am sure if his work would have been popular prior to Qutb al Din’s work, it would have been mentioned by other Arab writers in their books on geography and navigation.
As a result, until I read the original and primary Portuguese literature on Da Gama, and read Shumusky’s book or a translation thereof , I will assume that Ahmad ibn Majid was West Africans as noted by Bazan. Since he was West Africa, or even Yemeni, the face I have chosen for Ahmad ibn Majid, is the most accurate depiction of what this great navigator may have looked like.
[/
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Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
The above by Clyde certainly makes sense, and I can imagine that somehow Eurocentric scholars would not like to give this credit. Because by doing so the whole history of maritime falls apart. So a lot depends on this.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The Hariri depictions of sailors in the Indian Ocean from the Manuscripts of al-Harīrī's Maqāmāt, make it clear that my picture of a Moroccan being dark skinned would be more representative of the Indian Ocean sailors than the Malay and European depictions of ibn Majid.
.
.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Turks claim that Ahmad ibn Majid was an Omani. Other researchers claim Vasco Da Gama met Majid in West Africa. The information about Ahmad ibn Majid of West Africa , comes from T.A. Shumusky, Tri neizuesttruie totsii Akhmada ibn Madzhida lotsmana Vasko da Gamui ( Moscow, 1957), and R.A.G. Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam,,Muslim World, (1967) pp.284-292.
On Vasco da Gama's first voyage he stopped at the Bay of St. Helena on the Western Cape of South Africa and stayed there for a week.
1) You have never read anything by T.A. Shumusky
2) T.A. Shumusky is an unknown person so mentioning his name is meaningless.
Using an unknown person as a reference has no credibility
3) Rafael Bazan using the name T.A. Shumusky (with no affiliations listed) as a reference says about Vasco da Gama quote " Ahamad b. Majid, whom he met on the West Coast of Africa."
^^^ This is the West Coast of Africa
^^^ This is Vasco da Gama's path around Africa.
As I have mentioned Vasco da Gama stopped on the West coast of Africa at the Bay of St. Helena on the Western Cape of South Africa and stayed there for a week.
Rafeal Bazan citing unknown person T.A. Shumusky as his reference, says that Vasco da Gama met Ibn Majid on quote " the West Coast of Africa"
but you changed that to "West Africa" which is only as South as Nigeria and does not include the whole Southern half of the West coast of Africa. So even when saying your source is Bazan/Shumusky you are misrepresenting what he said
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Thirdly, why would Da Gama mention that Majid also told him about navigation among the Caribbean Islands, if Majid lived in Oman.
Vasco da Gama never mentioned Ibn Majid
again,
Vasco da Gama never mentioned Ibn Majid
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
video: Compass was invented by West African by Clyde Winters
quote: Shihab al-Din Ahmad b. Majid b. Muhammad b. `Amr al-Najdi, belonged to the Arab stock of Qays `Aylan. Originally settled in Najd, his family migrated to Oman where Ibn Majid was born in Jalfar somewhere about ninth century Hijri (c. 1432-7 CE).
(Najd- the central region of Saudi Arabia)
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
Those seem like valid points, however, you say Shumusky likely didn't exist,
I don't say it is likely he didn't exist The name is "T.A. Shumusky" unknown therefore he may not have existed or he may have existed Maybe you can find some information about a person with this name. Why use a reference, a person you know nothing about?
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
yet Clyde had not read his book etc.... That's a confusing part. Btw, how do you know what Clyde did or didn't read?
Is the Peruvian professor R.A.G. Bazan the white source you are referring at? Did you read his source?
It's not a book it's an article in The Muslim World, (a journal published by Hartford Seminary in Conneticut) Rafael A. Guevara Bazán, 1971
Rafael Bazan may or may not be "white" but his reference for the claim that Vasco da Gama met Ibn Majid on the West coast of Africa is suppodedly a writer in 1957 Moscow named "T.A. Shumusky" who my guess, if he was a real person, was white (note. > West coast not "West Africa" in particular) Clyde says himself he did not read "T.A. Shumusky" He only said he read Rafeal Bazan who used "T.A. Shumusky" as a reference. Bazan's article is on page 1 of the thread near the bottom Clyde says"
"Here is my copy of the Bazan article: R.A.G. Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam,,Muslim World, (1967) pp.284-292."
If you look at the right top (page 285) this is where Ibn Majid is mentioned.
The copy is old and much of the article is very faded
the quote
quote: Arab georgraphical information reached Vasco da Gama through his consultation with Ahamad b. Majid, whom he met on the West Coast of Africa. Arab stories say that this Ibn Majid was "imtoxicated" by the Portugese so that he would show them the way to the Indies. He is regarded as the author of a handbook on navigation on the Indian Ocean, the Red Sea, the Persian Gulf, the sea of Southern China and the waters around the West Indies Islands (Some West Africans consider him the inventor of the compass [5]
[5]See on Ibn Majid an interesting study of T.A. Shumusky, Tri neizuesttruie totsii Akhmada ibn Madzhida lotsmana Vasko da Gamui, Moscow, 1957, and R.A.G. Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam,,Muslim World, (1967) pp.284-292. In G. Ferrand, Introduction a l’astrnomie nautique des Arabes(, Paris,1928)
So here^^^ Clyde's source says the Arabs rather than the Turks told the story of Ibn Majid's intoxication. And it does not say that Vasco da Gama met Ibn Majid in West Africa. It says Vasco da Gama met Ibn Majid on the West Coast of Africa.
That is probably a mistake because all the other historians say they met either on the East Coast of Kenya in the Arab port city Malinidi or that they never met at all and the story was made up.
There is no strong evidence that they ever met each other although it is not improbable that da Gama had access to Ibn Majid's maps
And no author on says Ibn Majid was a native African
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
The current Sultan of Oman Qaboos bin Said Al Said
Maybe Ibn Majid looked like this, who knows
Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Hariri depictions of sailors in the Indian Ocean from the Manuscripts of al-Harīrī's Maqāmāt, make it clear that my picture of a Moroccan being dark skinned would be more representative of the Indian Ocean sailors than the Malay and European depictions of ibn Majid.
.
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I totally forgot about this one. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^ I posted that in Egyptology in a new thread 3 days ago, dated 1237 AD around 180 years before Ibn Majid was born. Notably the ship is unlike West African boats
Tukuler guessed that the sailors on the deck were Swahili
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
he early towns of Lamu Archipelago were excavated later by Chittick (1984) and Horton (1996). Settlements like Gedi, Malindi, and Mombasa grew to compete with those to the north and even Kilwa at the time when Portuguese had entered the region....
Swahili Towns in Ruins It was noted earlier that the realm of the Swahili culture is in the period between AD 1200 and 1500. After this heyday the Swahili culture entered into a deteriorating moment following the penetration of Europeans into East Africa. They wanted to conquer by destroying the large Swahili towns such as Kilwa and divert trade to the Atlantic Ocean towards Europe. The monopoly of trade was taken from the Swahili traders and put into the hands of European companies and later on, after 1800, into the hands of Oman Arabs and Indians. The Omanis came to East Africa to challenge the Portuguese. It was the Swahili rulers who invited the Omanis to use their Muslim responsibility to assist Muslim brethrens, but the Omanis did not leave after they accomplished the task. Only petty trade was left in the hands of the Swahili. In some towns trade was left to the Swahili people, but they had to cater for the masters of the new order.
In the new order, the Swahili towns, which had not given way to invaders before, were suppressed to the extent that they fell into ruins. This was necessary because other prosperous settlements, mostly controlled by the new Portuguese and Omani powers, emerged and it is here the new elite, whether foreign or local, would move (Chami et al. 2004). As Kilwa and other settlements of its type decayed, with only short periods of renewal, previously unknown towns emerged from about 1700. Such towns included Zanzibar, Bagamoyo and Kilwa Kivinje. Mombasa also grew substantially. These are towns founded by the enterprising British and German colonials. From the 1890s the new colonial towns such as Dar‐es‐Salaam, Nairobi and Kampala challenged these other towns. See (Chami et al. 2004) for an explanation of the fall and the rise of the Swahili towns.
(Abou Mohammad al-Qāsim ibn ‛Ali ibn Mohammad ibn ‛Ali al-Hariri al-Basri) Copied and illustrated by Yahya ibn Mahmud al-Wasti Bibliothèque nationale de France, manuscript Arabe 5847, 1237AD
Abu Zayd and al-Harith sailing
maqama 39 Queen giving birth
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Turks claim that Ahmad ibn Majid was an Omani. Other researchers claim Vasco Da Gama met Majid in West Africa. The information about Ahmad ibn Majid of West Africa , comes from T.A. Shumusky, Tri neizuesttruie totsii Akhmada ibn Madzhida lotsmana Vasko da Gamui ( Moscow, 1957), and R.A.G. Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam,,Muslim World, (1967) pp.284-292.
On Vasco da Gama's first voyage he stopped at the Bay of St. Helena on the Western Cape of South Africa and stayed there for a week.
1) You have never read anything by T.A. Shumusky
2) T.A. Shumusky is an unknown person so mentioning his name is meaningless.
Using an unknown person as a reference has no credibility
3) Rafael Bazan using the name T.A. Shumusky (with no affiliations listed) as a reference says about Vasco da Gama quote " Ahamad b. Majid, whom he met on the West Coast of Africa."
^^^ This is the West Coast of Africa
^^^ This is Vasco da Gama's path around Africa.
As I have mentioned Vasco da Gama stopped on the West coast of Africa at the Bay of St. Helena on the Western Cape of South Africa and stayed there for a week.
Rafeal Bazan citing unknown person T.A. Shumusky as his reference, says that Vasco da Gama met Ibn Majid on quote " the West Coast of Africa"
but you changed that to "West Africa" which is only as South as Nigeria and does not include the whole Southern half of the West coast of Africa. So even when saying your source is Bazan/Shumusky you are misrepresenting what he said
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Thirdly, why would Da Gama mention that Majid also told him about navigation among the Caribbean Islands, if Majid lived in Oman.
Vasco da Gama never mentioned Ibn Majid
again,
Vasco da Gama never mentioned Ibn Majid
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
video: Compass was invented by West African by Clyde Winters
quote: Shihab al-Din Ahmad b. Majid b. Muhammad b. `Amr al-Najdi, belonged to the Arab stock of Qays `Aylan. Originally settled in Najd, his family migrated to Oman where Ibn Majid was born in Jalfar somewhere about ninth century Hijri (c. 1432-7 CE).
(Najd- the central region of Saudi Arabia)
LOL. You act as if Da Gama only sailed to Africa in 1497. Vasco da Gama had been a naval officer along the West African Coast for years.
Secondly, the Bazan article was written 50 years ago. How can you say Shumusky, is an unknown author. You don't know how popular Shumusky was as a Russian researcher 50 years ago.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
[/URL]
Look at this map. You can see that Da Gama had an almost perfect voyage to India. The return trip was more problematic because Da Gama had to get out of India before his crew was killed by the locals. Since he did not follow the monsoon there were problems navigating to back to Africa. Notice once he got to Malindi it was an easy voyage home.
Da Gama had such a great voyage to India because of the knowledge he learned from Majid in West Africa about the Indian Ocean trade.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: There is no proof that Vasco da Gama ever met Ibn Majid anywhere
Vasco da Gama may, however, have used one of the maps from one of Ibn Majid's books
As to the background of Ibn Majid, here is another source:
quote: Shihab al-Din Ahmad b. Majid b. Muhammad b. `Amr al-Najdi, belonged to the Arab stock of Qays `Aylan. Originally settled in Najd, his family migrated to Oman where Ibn Majid was born in Jalfar somewhere about ninth century Hijri (c. 1432-7 CE).
(Najd- the central region of Saudi Arabia)
The notice in the encyclopedia does not mention any Arab authors who discussed Ahmad ibn Majid's work. The key reference is to Qutb al-Din al-Nahrwali, the Ottoman who wrote about Majid and Vasco da Gama. As we have discussed earlier Qutb's work was written 50 years after the death of Majid.
.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Lioness is correct Majid did not invent the compass he perfected it.
Are you going to change the title of the video?
.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
I suspect no one read and digested the full passages I posted on pg 1 so at least for now I'm not posting anymore page images but suggest a thorough perusal of João de SáAlvaro Velho Journal of the First Voyage of Vasco Da Gama, 1497-1499
particularly pp.45-48.
It's high time to introduce what we can from ibn Majid's works (where he chastises Portuguese presence in the Indian Ocean westward sea trade but never mentions da Gama) and the log or diary of da Gama's initial voyage around the Cape, up the SE & E Afr coast, and on to India.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
It's a tangent. I have the several pages from Subrahmanyam on Majid, not viewable on googlebooks. The whole thing is illuminated there. He also mentions T.A. Chamovsky, that I have discovered is the properly spelled name not Shumusky" and Clyde has not read his work,though published in Portugese Thats is better for a new thread. Maybe I'll start one
This thread is about Clyde's video on who invented the compass and nationality of Ibn Majid whom he says in the video is mentioned in Vasco da Gama's writing. However he is not mentioned in Vasco da Gama's writings . And is there a single West African writer who says Ibn Majid was a native West African?
So why is the video still up on youtube?
why waste good research on a thread on a video with so many fundamental errors?
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I suspect no one read and digested the full passages I posted on pg 1 so at least for now I'm not posting anymore page images but suggest a thorough perusal of João de SáAlvaro Velho Journal of the First Voyage of Vasco Da Gama, 1497-1499
particularly pp.45-48.
It's high time to introduce what we can from ibn Majid's works (where he chastises Portuguese presence in the Indian Ocean westward sea trade but never mentions da Gama) and the log or diary of da Gama's initial voyage around the Cape, up the SE & E Afr coast, and on to India.
The author was not on the same boat as Vasco Da Gama, as a result, we don't know what charts and maps Da Gama had. Also because the author was not intimate with da Gama, it adds no currency to the discussion on Da Gama's relationship, if any with Ahmad ibn Majid.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Lioness is correct Majid did not invent the compass he perfected it.
Are you going to change the title of the video?
.
I am not going to take the video down, because: 1) Bazan says that West Africans claimed Majid invented the compass and Vasco da Gama met Majid in West Africa;
2) Da Gama had been stationed and sailed along the West African coast so he could have met Majid there;
3) Da Gama, was a junior officer but he was chosen to make the voyage to India;
4) Portuguese had only rounded the Cape of Good Hope; but Da Gama sailed safely to Malindi;
5) the successful voyage to Malindi suggest Da Gama had good information on navigation in the Indian Ocean up to the Swahili cities;
6) the first mention of Majid by a Muslim writer is 50 years after Majid's death;
7)The Ottoman Historian Qutb al Din insist Da Gama met Majid in Malindi, and that he was born in Arabia;
8) Qutb al Din says Da Gama got Majid drunk and that while intoxicated , Majid told Da Gama how to get to India;
9) Portuguese say a Gujurati Christian, recommended by the ruler of Malindi guided Da Gama to India
10) it is clear that Majid’s Kitab al-Fawa’id fi Usul ‘Ilm al-Bahr wa ’l-Qawa’id, was a popular book on navigation in the Indian Ocean, it was not known before 1490 and maybe as late as 1500.
11) Ferrand does not cite any Arab source that mentions Majid’s Kitab al-Fawa’id, before the Ottoman historian Qutb al Din mentions him, 50 years after Majid had died.
12) Fijians claim they came from Africa;
13)West African placenames on the Pacific Islands and in India;
14) West African place names suggest a West African community formerly existed in South Asia, the Pacific region ;
15) Omanis carry the Benin haplotype (34%), which is common in West Africa; West African sickle cell in Oman, suggest prior West African population in region.
For these reasons I will not take the video down.
But I have changed the title to: A Compass was invented by a West African.
I wrote this in the comments section of the video
quote: In this film we discuss the West African nautical science and the great navigator Ahmad ibn Majid. It explains aspects of West African nautical science and Majid's contribution to the development of navigation in the Indian Ocean and West Indies.Controversy surrounds Ahmad ibn Majid. R.A.G., Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam (Muslim World ,1967 pp.284-292) wrote that West Africans say Majid invented the compass. But the literature says that Majid only perfected the compass. Bazan, based his identification of ibn Majid as a West African on T.A. Shumusky [Chamovsky], Tri neizuesttruie totsii Akhmada ibn Madzhida lotsmana Vasko da Gamui ( Moscow, 1957). Other researchers claim Majid was born in Arabia.
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Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
I'm sorry, but I don't see logic in this map. Why didn't he sail along the coast? If he was unfamiliar with the route?
Instead he drifted of off the coast.
Posted by kdolo (Member # 21830) on :
de Gama learned about the route from West Africans.....
And then subsequent generations have tried to hide the fact....the map doesnt make any sense....good point Troll
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
I'm sorry, but I don't see logic in this map. Why didn't he sail along the coast? If he was unfamiliar with the route?
Instead he drifted of off the coast.
He did not sail along the coast because he did not know how well he would be recieved. Reading the log, it appears that except for people in the Swahili cities, most Africans did not welcome strangers.
Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by kdolo: de Gama learned about the route from West Africans.....
And then subsequent generations have tried to hide the fact....the map doesnt make any sense....good point Troll
Dolo, I happened to find this map as well.
Here is an Magellan map for comparison.
We know of Abubakari II as well. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
But I have changed the title to: A Compass was invented by a West African.
why would you say that when there is zero evidence that Ibn Majid was West African?
GIve us one West African source that says he was West African
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
I wrote this in the comments section of the video [QUOTE] Bazan, based his identification of ibn Majid as a West African on T.A. Shumusky [Chamovsky], Tri neizuesttruie totsii Akhmada ibn Madzhida lotsmana Vasko da Gamui ( Moscow, 1957). Other researchers claim Majid was born in Arabia.
.
Why are you lying and saying Bazan identified ibn Majid as a West African ?
Here's the Bazan quote:
quote:
Arab geographical information reached Vasco da Gama through his consultation with Ahamad b. Majid, whom he met on the West Coast of Africa. Arab stories say that this Ibn Majid was "intoxicated" by the Portugese so that he would show them the way to the Indies. He is regarded as the author of a handbook on navigation on the Indian Ocean, the Red Sea, the Persian Gulf, the sea of Southern China and the waters around the West Indies Islands (Some West Africans consider him the inventor of the compass [5]
It says they met on the West coast, not that he was West African
or that they met only in the portion of the coast where West Africa is.
Can't you be fair and accurate?
Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
I'm sorry, but I don't see logic in this map. Why didn't he sail along the coast? If he was unfamiliar with the route?
Instead he drifted of off the coast.
He did not sail along the coast because he did not know how well he would be recieved. Reading the log, it appears that except for people in the Swahili cities, most Africans did not welcome strangers.
How was he able to make such dicitions beforehand, before he went on shore? In other words, he did he know people were living along the West coast who wouldn't welcome him?
I mean, I have traveled a bit, with my "boots in the dirty". But never suspected beforehand that I wouldn't be welcomed. This then is in the modern world were we have fast communication, multimedia etc...
May I reenforce Abubakari II once more!?
It's all about connecting the dots.
The Battle for the Americas Mansa Abubakari II – 181 years before Columbus
Abu Bakr II succeeded Abubakari. And they say Columbus called the Natives/ Amerindians Indians, because he assumed we was at South India's shore?
Posted by kdolo (Member # 21830) on :
I also believe that Colombus knew that there was land across the Atlantic due to things he learned during his years trading the West African coast....from West Africans.....this intelligence confirmed whatever other info he had from old maps...
it is confirmed that his second voyage had many Blacks....their remains were found at La Isabela.
If he had many on his.first voyage, he must have had some on his first....these were likely to.be people who.could show him the way.....
History has tried to suppress these facts, Colombus himself never mentioned Blacks in his crew although they were there....
Colombus, de Gama, typical Euro liars....
These people learned from West Africans ... and have lied to suppress the fact.
The Portuguese knew of Brazil and Colombus confirmed for them the existence of another land mass. He talked to the Portuguese first before the Spanish both before and after his voyage. Colombus may have been double dealing...spying for the Portuguese in order to strike he best deal.for himself.
This is why the Portuguese wanted the Treaty of Torsedillas....as far as they knew.....the real.jewel.was the land mass to.the south...they knew it was here all along
Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by kdolo: I also believe that Colombus knew that there was land across the Atlantic due to things he learned during his years trading the West African coast....from West Africans.....this intelligence confirmed whatever other info he had from old maps...
it is confirmed that his second voyage had many Blacks....their remains were found at La Isabela.
If he had many on his.first voyage, he must have had some on his first....these were likely to.be people who.could show him the way.....
History has tried to suppress these facts, Colombus himself never mentioned Blacks in his crew although they were there....
Colombus, de Gama, typical Euro liars....
These people learned from West Africans ... and have lied to suppress the fact.
The Portuguese knew of Brazil and Colombus confirmed for them the existence of another land mass. He talked to the Portuguese first before the Spanish both before and after his voyage. Colombus may have been double dealing...spying for the Portuguese in order to strike he best deal.for himself.
This is why the Portuguese wanted the Treaty of Torsedillas....as far as they knew.....the real.jewel.was the land mass to.the south...they knew it was here all along
This what Van Sertema stated, He also stated that he himself read those accounts.
Look up the Van Sertema they came before Columbus video.
But I have changed the title to: A Compass was invented by a West African.
why would you say that when there is zero evidence that Ibn Majid was West African?
GIve us one West African source that says he was West African
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
I wrote this in the comments section of the video [QUOTE] Bazan, based his identification of ibn Majid as a West African on T.A. Shumusky [Chamovsky], Tri neizuesttruie totsii Akhmada ibn Madzhida lotsmana Vasko da Gamui ( Moscow, 1957). Other researchers claim Majid was born in Arabia.
.
Why are you lying and saying Bazan identified ibn Majid as a West African ?
Here's the Bazan quote:
quote:
Arab geographical information reached Vasco da Gama through his consultation with Ahamad b. Majid, whom he met on the West Coast of Africa. Arab stories say that this Ibn Majid was "intoxicated" by the Portugese so that he would show them the way to the Indies. He is regarded as the author of a handbook on navigation on the Indian Ocean, the Red Sea, the Persian Gulf, the sea of Southern China and the waters around the West Indies Islands (Some West Africans consider him the inventor of the compass [5]
It says they met on the West coast, not that he was West African
or that they met only in the portion of the coast where West Africa is.
Can't you be fair and accurate?
? Look at you again.
I am more worried about the intoxication. But you...?
See Kdolo's last post. You need to read on the EIC, then tell me again, that trash you wrote there.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
I'm sorry, but I don't see logic in this map. Why didn't he sail along the coast? If he was unfamiliar with the route?
Instead he drifted of off the coast.
He did not sail along the coast because he did not know how well he would be recieved. Reading the log, it appears that except for people in the Swahili cities, most Africans did not welcome strangers.
Clyde I looked up Atlantic Winds and Currents. It's interesting and remarkable at the same time. We have to understand that back then they sailed by wind current. Not by motor base.
This one is clearer,
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
But I have changed the title to: A Compass was invented by a West African.
why would you say that when there is zero evidence that Ibn Majid was West African?
GIve us one West African source that says he was West African
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
I wrote this in the comments section of the video [QUOTE] Bazan, based his identification of ibn Majid as a West African on T.A. Shumusky [Chamovsky], Tri neizuesttruie totsii Akhmada ibn Madzhida lotsmana Vasko da Gamui ( Moscow, 1957). Other researchers claim Majid was born in Arabia.
.
Why are you lying and saying Bazan identified ibn Majid as a West African ?
Here's the Bazan quote:
quote:
Arab geographical information reached Vasco da Gama through his consultation with Ahamad b. Majid, whom he met on the West Coast of Africa. Arab stories say that this Ibn Majid was "intoxicated" by the Portugese so that he would show them the way to the Indies. He is regarded as the author of a handbook on navigation on the Indian Ocean, the Red Sea, the Persian Gulf, the sea of Southern China and the waters around the West Indies Islands (Some West Africans consider him the inventor of the compass [5]
It says they met on the West coast, not that he was West African
or that they met only in the portion of the coast where West Africa is.
Can't you be fair and accurate?
I believe that I am being fair and accurate. We already know that Majid was not at Malindi, so their was no way he could have become intoxicated and told Da Gama how to sail to India. If Qutb lied about how Majid and da Gama met, why couldn't he lie about where Majid was born. Sanjay Subrahmanyam, in the The Career and Legend of Vasco Da Gama, goes back to Qutb for the myth that Majid was intoxicated when he met Da Gama.
There is a lot of intrigue in Da Gama's voyage to India. It appears that it was well planned and the Portuguese had already prepared the way for the Da Gama voyage.They may have already sent a spy to Calicut to lay the groundwork for the eventual meeting of the Indians and the Portuguese. This spy was probably Monçaide, who came on board Vasco da Gama’s vessel at Calicut In the journal we read:
quote:
“On Tuesday [August 28], in the morning, whilst at anchor, a Moor of Tunis, who spoke our language, took refuge on board one of our ships, saying, that all he had had been taken from him, that worse might happen, and that this was his usual luck”. The people of the country, he said, charged him with being a Christian, who had come to Calecut by order of the King of Portugal; for this reason he preferred going away with us, rather than remain in a country where any day he might be killed.
Since Majid was not the pilot from Malindi who guided da Gama to India; Majid had to have met him elsewhere. This supports the comments of Bazan, that Majid met da Gama in West Africa. If Majid lived in West Africa, he was a West African.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Amazing horseshit!
Primary documentation that's irrelevant.
Yeah irrelevant to your nonsense because it cleans your clock but good that's why you rely on a 20th century inaccurate blurb for your fantasy. "This manuscript is the only known contemporary copy of the report of the first voyage of Vasco da Gama to India,"
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I suspect no one read and digested the full passages I posted on pg 1 so at least for now I'm not posting anymore page images but suggest a thorough perusal of João de SáAlvaro Velho Journal of the First Voyage of Vasco Da Gama, 1497-1499
particularly pp.45-48.
It's high time to introduce what we can from ibn Majid's works (where he chastises Portuguese presence in the Indian Ocean westward sea trade but never mentions da Gama) and the log or diary of da Gama's initial voyage around the Cape, up the SE & E Afr coast, and on to India.
The author was not on the same boat as Vasco Da Gama, as a result, we don't know what charts and maps Da Gama had. Also because the author was not intimate with da Gama, it adds no currency to the discussion on Da Gama's relationship, if any with Ahmad ibn Majid.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
I'm sorry, but I don't see logic in this map. Why didn't he sail along the coast? If he was unfamiliar with the route?
Instead he drifted of off the coast.
He did not sail along the coast because he did not know how well he would be recieved. Reading the log, it appears that except for people in the Swahili cities, most Africans did not welcome strangers.
Clyde I looked up Atlantic Winds and Currents. It's interesting and remarkable at the same time. We have to understand that back then they sailed by wind current. Not by motor base.
This one is clearer,
You are so right about the Currents and West Africans sailing to the Americas it was a marvelous discovery. It is clear we need to know more. Just think about the knowledge that is contained in the numerous Libraries of Timbuktu which might enligten us on this theme.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
I'm sorry, but I don't see logic in this map. Why didn't he sail along the coast? If he was unfamiliar with the route?
Instead he drifted of off the coast.
It doesn't matter you can't see the logic.
It's a fact that da Gama used the Atlantic currents to speed his trip. The only thing he was unfamiliar with was the route to India.
Portuguese had already hugged the shore at least as far as Angola. Also, Dias too had already rounded the Cape and landed on the SE coast.
What da Gama did was move north from the farthest point Dias got to, kidnapping and flogging African pilots to take him up the coast.
Don't think for a moment Portuguese spies and others had not known there was a route from Africa to India. What else do you think inspired them to cut in on the market?
High time to read the primary document and learn some facts and leave all the sloppy non-scholarship historical fiction feel good fantasy stuff alone.
The need is for an authentic history of Africa and her people not a black set of lies to replace a white set of lies.
Posted by kdolo (Member # 21830) on :
"High time to read the primary document and learn some facts and leave all the sloppy non-scholarship historical fiction feel good fantasy stuff alone.
The need is for an authentic history of Africa and her people not a black set of lies to replace a white set of lies....."
"What on earth are you talking about ???
Stop being stupid...
we already figured out by basic reasoning and use of the available evidence that The Portuguese and the Spanish got their info and made their voyages because of Africans...
"What da Gama did was move north from the farthest point Dias got to, kidnapping and flogging African pilots to take him up the coast.
Don't think for a moment Portuguese spies and others had not known there was a route from Africa to India. What else do you think inspired them to cut in on the market?"
You are late. ..... too slow.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: LOL. You act as if Da Gama only sailed to Africa in 1497. Vasco da Gama had been a naval officer along the West African Coast for years.
Secondly, the Bazan article was written 50 years ago. How can you say Shumusky, is an unknown author. You don't know how popular Shumusky was as a Russian researcher 50 years ago.
When are you going to present documentation for da Gama sailing "the West African coast for years?"
As for Shumusky, of course he's real. What tL said about him is as off the wall as ibn Majid inventing the compass, being a West African (of no specific kingdom), or writing about the West Indies.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
The Xian Indian thing is from these Portuguese mistaking Maryana and Krishna for Mary and Christ.
The Indians da Gama ran into seemed to have beef with 'Arabs' and even their own fellow Indians. I guess they felt since India was the source of the spices it wouldn't cripple their economy no matter who transported commodities westward. For the Arabs however it would spell financial decline if they couldn't keep their monopoly of such trade into the Mediterranean market.
On Thursday [April 19] the captain-major and Nicolau Coelho rowed along the front of the town, bombards having been placed in the poops of their long-boats. Many people were along the shore, and among them two horsemen, who appeared to take much delight in a sham-fight. The king was carried in a palanquin from the stone steps of his palace to the side of the captain-major’s boats. He again begged the captain to come ashore, as he had a helpless father who wanted to see him, and that he and his sons would go on board the ships as hostages. The captain, however, excused himself.129
We found here four vessels belonging to Indian Christians. When they came for the first time on board Paulo da Gama’s ship, the captain-major being there at the time, they were shown an altar-piece representing Our Lady at the foot of the cross, with Jesus Christ in her arms and the apostles around her. When the Indians saw this picture 45they prostrated themselves, and as long as we were there they came to say their prayers in front of it, bringing offerings of cloves, pepper, and other things.130
These Indians are tawny men; they wear but little clothing and have long beards and long hair, which they braid. They told us that they ate no beef. Their language differs from that of the Arabs, but some of them know a little of it, as they hold much intercourse with them.
On the day on which the captain-major went up to the town in the boats, these Christian Indians fired off many bombards from their vessels, and when they saw him pass they raised their hands and shouted lustily Christ! Christ!131
That same night they asked the king’s permission to give us a night-fête. And when night came they fired off many bombards, sent up rockets, and raised loud shouts.
These Indians warned the captain-major against going on shore, and told him not to trust to their “fanfares”, as they neither came from their hearts nor from their good will.
We were much pleased with the Christian pilot whom the king had sent us. We learnt from him that the island of which we heard at Moçambique as being inhabited by Christians was in reality an island subject to this same King of Moçambique; that half of it belonged to the Moors and the other half to the Christians; that many pearls were to be found there, and that it was called Quyluee.133 This is the island the Moorish pilots wanted to take us to, and we also wished to go there, for we believed that what they said was true.
The town of Malindi lies in a bay and extends along the shore. It may be likened to Alcouchette.134 Its houses are lofty and well white-washed, and have many windows; on the landside are palm-groves, and all around it maize and vegetables are being cultivated.
We remained in front of this town during nine days,135 and all this time we had fêtes, sham-fights, and musical performances (“fanfares”).
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
I'm sorry, but I don't see logic in this map. Why didn't he sail along the coast? If he was unfamiliar with the route?
Instead he drifted of off the coast.
It doesn't matter you can't see the logic.
It's a fact that da Gama used the Atlantic currents to speed his trip. The only thing he was unfamiliar with was the route to India.
Portuguese had already hugged the shore at least as far as Angola. Also, Dias too had already rounded the Cape and landed on the SE coast.
What da Gama did was move north from the farthest point Dias got to, kidnapping and flogging African pilots to take him up the coast.
Don't think for a moment Portuguese spies and others had not known there was a route from Africa to India. What else do you think inspired them to cut in on the market?
High time to read the primary document and learn some facts and leave all the sloppy non-scholarship historical fiction feel good fantasy stuff alone.
The need is for an authentic history of Africa and her people not a black set of lies to replace a white set of lies.
Vasco da Gama did not go around kidnapping pilots up and down the East African coast. He only took a pilot from Mozambique because his pilot João de Coimbra, who was an African slave belonging to da Gama deserted him at Mozambique . It was probably Coimbra who told the Muslims in Mozambique that da Gama was a Christian. This caused him to kidnap a pilot so he could get to Malindi.
The Journal of the First Voyage of Vasco da Gama 1497-1499, tells us many things but, does not tell us anything about Ahmad ibn Majid. What it does tell us is that Majid didn't meet da Gama at Malindi.
This suggest that the story about meeting da Gama in West Africa, mentioned by Bazan, is probably true. The arjuza where Majid confesses his regret in helping da Gama appears to indicate that he did know da Gama and felt bad about the havoc the Portuguese took to the Indian Ocean countries. If they didn't meet at Malindi, supports a meeting in West Africa.
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
quote:Originally posted by kdolo: I also believe that Colombus knew that there was land across the Atlantic due to things he learned during his years trading the West African coast....from West Africans.....this intelligence confirmed whatever other info he had from old maps...
it is confirmed that his second voyage had many Blacks....their remains were found at La Isabela.
If he had many on his.first voyage, he must have had some on his first....these were likely to.be people who.could show him the way.....
History has tried to suppress these facts, Colombus himself never mentioned Blacks in his crew although they were there....
Colombus, de Gama, typical Euro liars....
These people learned from West Africans ... and have lied to suppress the fact.
The Portuguese knew of Brazil and Colombus confirmed for them the existence of another land mass. He talked to the Portuguese first before the Spanish both before and after his voyage. Colombus may have been double dealing...spying for the Portuguese in order to strike he best deal.for himself.
This is why the Portuguese wanted the Treaty of Torsedillas....as far as they knew.....the real.jewel.was the land mass to.the south...they knew it was here all along
I agree that Columbus learned of the West Indians from West Africans whom he had knowledge of. The two pre-1500 maps showing Brazil and the Indies hints Portuguese knew what the Spanish didn't.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: The Xian Indian thing is from these Portuguese mistaking Maryana and Krishna for Mary and Christ.
The Indians da Gama ran into seemed to have beef with 'Arabs' and even their own fellow Indians. I guess they felt since India was the source of the spices it wouldn't cripple their economy no matter who transported commodities westward. For the Arabs however it would spell financial decline if they couldn't keep their monopoly of such trade into the Mediterranean market.
On Thursday [April 19] the captain-major and Nicolau Coelho rowed along the front of the town, bombards having been placed in the poops of their long-boats. Many people were along the shore, and among them two horsemen, who appeared to take much delight in a sham-fight. The king was carried in a palanquin from the stone steps of his palace to the side of the captain-major’s boats. He again begged the captain to come ashore, as he had a helpless father who wanted to see him, and that he and his sons would go on board the ships as hostages. The captain, however, excused himself.129
We found here four vessels belonging to Indian Christians. When they came for the first time on board Paulo da Gama’s ship, the captain-major being there at the time, they were shown an altar-piece representing Our Lady at the foot of the cross, with Jesus Christ in her arms and the apostles around her. When the Indians saw this picture 45they prostrated themselves, and as long as we were there they came to say their prayers in front of it, bringing offerings of cloves, pepper, and other things.130
These Indians are tawny men; they wear but little clothing and have long beards and long hair, which they braid. They told us that they ate no beef. Their language differs from that of the Arabs, but some of them know a little of it, as they hold much intercourse with them.
On the day on which the captain-major went up to the town in the boats, these Christian Indians fired off many bombards from their vessels, and when they saw him pass they raised their hands and shouted lustily Christ! Christ!131
That same night they asked the king’s permission to give us a night-fête. And when night came they fired off many bombards, sent up rockets, and raised loud shouts.
These Indians warned the captain-major against going on shore, and told him not to trust to their “fanfares”, as they neither came from their hearts nor from their good will.
We were much pleased with the Christian pilot whom the king had sent us. We learnt from him that the island of which we heard at Moçambique as being inhabited by Christians was in reality an island subject to this same King of Moçambique; that half of it belonged to the Moors and the other half to the Christians; that many pearls were to be found there, and that it was called Quyluee.133 This is the island the Moorish pilots wanted to take us to, and we also wished to go there, for we believed that what they said was true.
The town of Malindi lies in a bay and extends along the shore. It may be likened to Alcouchette.134 Its houses are lofty and well white-washed, and have many windows; on the landside are palm-groves, and all around it maize and vegetables are being cultivated.
We remained in front of this town during nine days,135 and all this time we had fêtes, sham-fights, and musical performances (“fanfares”).
It was Bazan who said Majid taught da Gama about the West Indies. I was just citing what he wrote. .
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
And now knowing he was in error you still use him because you prefer fantasy to authenticity.
Why else prefer 20th cent Bazan vs the actual 1497-9 voyage log.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by ausar: And now knowing he was in error you still use him because you prefer fantasy to authenticity.
Why else prefer 20th cent Bazan vs the actual 1497-9 voyage log.
Bazan said da Gama met Majid in West Africa. The log does not claim that da Gama met Majid during the voyage.I don't get it. What is the error?
.
Posted by kdolo (Member # 21830) on :
"When are you going to present documentation for da Gama sailing "the West African coast for years?"
"From the earlier part of the 15th Century, Portuguese expeditions organized by Prince Henry the Navigator had been crawling down the African coastline, principally in search of west African riches (notably, gold). They had greatly extended Portuguese maritime knowledge, " Wiki
in 1460, the Portuguese crown .... sold..the .. African enterprise to Fernão Gomes. Within a few years, Gomes's captains expanded Portuguese knowledge across the Gulf of Guinea, doing business in gold dust, Melegueta pepper, ivory and slaves. " Wiki
..."Under John II's watch, the gold and slave trade in west Africa was greatly expanded. He was eager to break into the highly profitable spice trade between Europe and Asia..... John II set a new objective for his captains: to find a sea route to Asia by sailing around the African continent." Wiki
Conclusions:
1. From the early 1400s, Portuguese government had been sponsoring West African voyages and "expanding maritime knowledge." i.e. gathering intelligence.
2. In 1481, John II decides upon a "new objective"... to reach Asia by sailing around India.
-question ? How did he know Asia could be reached in this manner so as to make it an objective ???
answer: the cumulative intelligence gathered by Portuguese maritime experience and trade with West Africans.
This is what De Gama used. (the same as Colombus for going West.)
De Gama specifically ? it appears he got the job to take the mission because of his father.
"The task, originally given to Vasco da Gama's father, was finally offered to Vasco by Manuel I on the strength of his record of protecting Portuguese trading stations along the African Gold Coast from depredations by the French." Wiki
De Gama relied upon the intelligence gathered by himself, his father, and previous missions/reports on maritime trade with West Africa and intelligence from West Africans.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
We already know about Portuguese exploration of Atlantic Africa. Dias had got as far as SE Africa just aroun the Cape in the Indian Ocean, unlike Clyde who surmises da Gama knew nothing of Dias' voyage to Kwaaihoek.
Thank you
So far no documentation for da Gama sailing the West African or even the western African coast for years.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Precisely, the log makes no mention of Majid or landing in West Africa.
Nothing like facts to displace fancy.
There is no pre-20th century notice of any such thing as ibn Majid in W Afr.
Keep acting like you don't get it. Outside your choir nobody's listening.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by ausar: And now knowing he was in error you still use him because you prefer fantasy to authenticity.
Why else prefer 20th cent Bazan vs the actual 1497-9 voyage log.
Bazan said da Gama met Majid in West Africa. The log does not claim that da Gama met Majid during the voyage.I don't get it. What is the error?
.
Posted by kdolo (Member # 21830) on :
Do you even listen to your own words ?
"We already know about Portuguese exploration of Atlantic Africa. Dias had got as far as SE Africa just aroun the Cape in the Indian Ocean, unlike Clyde who surmises da Gama knew nothing of Dias' voyage to Kwaaihoek.
Thank you
So far no documentation for da Gama sailing the West African or even the western African coast for years."
De Gama, his father, and the Portugues court had decades of intelligence gathering of maritime activity in the Atlantic and West Africa. In fact, de Gama was chosen for the mission at first for exactly this experience.
"The task, originally given to Vasco da Gama's father, was finally offered to Vasco by Manuel I on the strength of his record of protecting Portuguese trading stations along the African Gold Coast from depredations by the French." Wiki
These are the facts: Portuguese, West Africa, decades, sponsored Royal intelligence gathering and trade, maritime, De Gama - West African experience.
So let me rephrase then: De Gama along with his own personal experience in West Africa had access to the decades of cumulative intelligence of Portuguese efforts.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by kdolo: Do you even listen to your own words ?
"We already know about Portuguese exploration of Atlantic Africa. Dias had got as far as SE Africa just aroun the Cape in the Indian Ocean, unlike Clyde who surmises da Gama knew nothing of Dias' voyage to Kwaaihoek.
Thank you
So far no documentation for da Gama sailing the West African or even the western African coast for years."
De Gama, his father, and the Portugues court had decades of intelligence gathering of maritime activity in the Atlantic and West Africa. In fact, de Gama was chosen for the mission at first for exactly this experience.
"The task, originally given to Vasco da Gama's father, was finally offered to Vasco by Manuel I on the strength of his record of protecting Portuguese trading stations along the African Gold Coast from depredations by the French." Wiki
These are the facts: Portuguese, West Africa, decades, sponsored Royal intelligence gathering and trade, maritime, De Gama - West African experience.
So let me rephrase then: De Gama along with his own personal experience in West Africa had access to the decades of cumulative intelligence of Portuguese efforts.
Good post Kdolo, I never said anything earlier because a simple perusal of the Wiki page on da Gama tells us about his activities along the West coast of Africa.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
The poor carpenter blames his tools. The fraudulent video maker blames Bazan.
Bazan's paragraph 285a on ibn Majid and da Gama in full with notes.
Arab georgraphical information reached Vasco da Gama not only in written form, but also through his consultation with Ahamad b. Majid, whom he met on the west coast of Africa. Arab stories say that this ibn Majid was "intoxicated" by the Portuguese so that he would show them the way to the Indies. He is regarded as the author of a handbook on navigation on the Indian Ocean, the Red Sea, the Persian Gulf, the Sea of Southern China and the waters around the West Indies' Islands. (Some West Africans consider him also the inventor of the compass.)5 But Vasco da Gama must have met many other Muslim navigators as well. According to Lusitano, Vasco da Gama, "who was the first one to discover the Eastern Indies, met in the Mozambique Passage several Moorish navigators who used the magnetic needle with which they sailed in those seas: but no one states explicitly from whom they learned it."6
5 See on Ibn Majid the interesting study of T. A. Shumusky, Tri Neizuesttruie totsii Akhmada Ibn Madzhida Arabskogo lotsmana Vasko da-Gamui, Moscow, 1957, and Gabriel Ferrand, Introduction a l'astronomie nautique des Arabes (Paris: Geuthner, 1928), p. 247.
6 Osorio Lusitano, De Rebus Gestis, I. 14, quoted by Gregario Garcia, Origen de los Indios en el Nuevo Mundo e Indias Occidentales (Madrid, 1729), p. 21.
Notice no page number for the Shumusky (sic) reference. Does Bazan expect us to read Shumovsky in full? Bazan gives p. 247 of Ferrand (1928). We can quickly check that one out.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Bazan said da Gama met Majid in West Africa. The log does not claim that da Gama met Majid during the voyage.I don't get it. What is the error?
Please stop lying, thanks
here is what Bazan said
quote: Arab geographical information reached Vasco da Gama through his consultation with Ahamad b. Majid, whom he met on the West Coast of Africa. Arab stories say that this Ibn Majid was "intoxicated" by the Portugese so that he would show them the way to the Indies.
He said they met on the WEST COAST OF AFRICA
NOT WEST AFRICA
THE WEST COAST OF AFRICA ALSO INCLUDES THE WHOLE SOUTHERN HALF OF THE AFRICAN COAST WHILE WEST AFRICA DOES NOT
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Again you fail to present any reference whatsoever for da Gama sailing "the West African or even the western African coast for years."
If you weren't lying to cover your ass you would've drowned us in cut n paste quotes.
It's natural to presume da Gama in service at W Afr but where explicitly in a source close to his time does it say so. Gimme a book not a website (unless it gives a book source) please. Thanks.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by kdolo: Do you even listen to your own words ?
"We already know about Portuguese exploration of Atlantic Africa. Dias had got as far as SE Africa just aroun the Cape in the Indian Ocean, unlike Clyde who surmises da Gama knew nothing of Dias' voyage to Kwaaihoek.
Thank you
So far no documentation for da Gama sailing the West African or even the western African coast for years."
De Gama, his father, and the Portugues court had decades of intelligence gathering of maritime activity in the Atlantic and West Africa. In fact, de Gama was chosen for the mission at first for exactly this experience.
"The task, originally given to Vasco da Gama's father, was finally offered to Vasco by Manuel I on the strength of his record of protecting Portuguese trading stations along the African Gold Coast from depredations by the French." Wiki
These are the facts: Portuguese, West Africa, decades, sponsored Royal intelligence gathering and trade, maritime, De Gama - West African experience.
So let me rephrase then: De Gama along with his own personal experience in West Africa had access to the decades of cumulative intelligence of Portuguese efforts.
Good post Kdolo, I never said anything earlier because a simple perusal of the Wiki page on da Gama tells us about his activities along the West coast of Africa.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Pay particular attention to paragraph c on Pêro da Covilhã which should squelch speculation about Portuguese not knowing of the trade (a "novel" notion at best).
Salma Khadra Jayyusi, Manuela Marín (eds) The Legacy of Muslim Spain Leiden; New York: E.J. Brill, 1992
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Notice no page number for the Shumusky (sic) reference. Does Bazan expect us to read Shumovsky in full? Bazan gives p. 247 of Ferrand (1928). We can quickly check that one out.
forget the name T.A. Shumusky
the proper spelling is
T.A. Chumovsky
(student of the Russian Orientalist I.J. Kratchkovsky who discovered the manuscript in the 1920s)
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
I wrote this in the comments section of the video
Bazan, based his identification of ibn Majid as a West African on T.A. Shumusky [Chamovsky], Tri neizuesttruie totsii Akhmada ibn Madzhida lotsmana Vasko da Gamui ( Moscow, 1957). Other researchers claim Majid was born in Arabia.
wrong
T.A. CHUMOVSKY not CHAMOVSKY
Tres Roteiros Desconhecidos de Ahmad Ibn-Madjid o Piloto Arabe de Vasco da Gama.
The information about Ahmad ibn Majid of West Africa , comes from T.A. Shumusky,
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Majid was not a pilot. It was an Indian who piloted Vasco da Gama to India.
.
T.A. CHUMOVSKY
Tres Roteiros Desconhecidos de Ahmad Ibn-Madjid o Piloto Arabe de Vasco da Gama.
translation:
THREE RUTTERS (SAILING MANUALS) OF IBN MAJID THE ARAB PILOT OF VASCO DA GAMA
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
I have searched Ferrand using keys
* occidentale d'afrique * majid occidentale
Afaict, Ferrand doesn't place ibn Majid in West Africa.
As for Shumovsky, my bad. The proper Russian orthography in Latin characters is indeed Chumovsky.
Posted by kdolo (Member # 21830) on :
"Pay particular attention to paragraph c on Pêro da Covilhã which should squelch speculation about Portuguese not knowing of the trade (a "novel" notion at best). "
.....and ????
knowing the Trade and knowing the way there from the Atlantic side and south are two different things...
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Do you even know what you're talking about.
Did you even read the extracted page.
If you don't articulate how can I clarify?
Try to compose a coherent post that makes a point and uses references to support it or at least a set of logical inferences with their conclusion that isn't contradicted by fact.
Until then you are beneath notice as we aren't going for emotion here but historical knowledge worthy of use and discussion in circles of black scholars and informed laymen.
The touchy-feely days of ES AE are over.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I have searched Ferrand using keys
* occidentale d'afrique * majid occidentale
Afaict, Ferrand doesn't place ibn Majid in West Africa.
As for Shumovsky, my bad. The proper Russian orthography in Latin characters is indeed Chumovsky.
Ferrand link to full text page 1 . thread
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
I don't have all day to track this **** down. If you can quote Ferrand placing ibn Majid in W Afr then just post it, thx.
Posted by kdolo (Member # 21830) on :
yes sir Mr. Tukuler sir.....
(sarcastic eye roll
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Stop wasting bandwidth and storage with personal beef. People come here to lean Egypt and Africa studies and related disciplines not for soap opera antics. Get with the program, light weight.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
247
sont naturellement écrits dans la langue astronomico-nautique propre aux gens de mers. Gomme cette langue spéciale n'a pas été étudiée encore, la traduction en est extrêmement malaisée et un certain nombre de termes me restent encore fermés.
Malgré ces lacunes qu'on comblera quelque jour, l'œuvre de Ibn Mâjid et celle de son continuateur Sulaymân al-Mahrï, apparaît dans toute son importance. En fait, les traités nau- tiques de celui-là exposent en détail l'état des relations mari- times interocéaniques dans la seconde moitié du xv^ siècle entre la côte orientale d'Afrique à partir du cap de Bonne- Espérance, et le port fameux de Zïtûn, au Fou-kien, en y comprenant la mer Rouge, le golfe Persique, et toutes les îles de l'Océan Indien et du grand archipel d'Asie, les Philip- pines et le Japon exceptés. Ces textes arabes constituent ainsi la source d'informations la plus importante de la fin du moyen âge pour la connaissance des mers du Sud à cette époque. De l'aveu même de Ibn Mâjid, son Kitâb al-fawâïd(l), sa Hâwiya et ses autres traités reproduisent dans une certaine mesure les Instructions nautiques rédigées par son père et son grand-père, et les indications fournies par de plus anciens prédécesseurs qu'il a utilisées, rectifiées et mises au point pour les marins du xv^ siècle. Ses traités et routiers nautiques sont ainsi une sorte de somme des connaissances de tous les marins de la mer de l'Inde : marins arabes, zengs, indiens occidentaux, colas, indonésiens occidentaux, chinois mêmes, et c'est en réalité une contribution infiniment précieuse à l'histoire de la navigation et du commerce dans les mers du Sud, antérieurement à la conquête portugaise.
On reste surpris que deux manuscrits aussi importants que A^et B soient restés si longtemps inconnus alors que l'existence des textes qu'ils contiennent avaient été signalée parla traduc- tion partielle de la version turke de Sïdî 'Alî et par Reinaud. Ce dernier les avait étudiés et avait même rédigé un article à ce sujet. Il en est fait mention de sa main, sur un feuillet de garde de B, mais autant que je sache, il ne fut jamais publié,
1. Cf. t. II de la présente publication, p. m.
MACHINE TRANSLATION
247
are naturally written in the language astronomico-water own people to seas. As this special language is not was studied again, the translation is extremely difficult and a number of terms are still closed to me.
Despite these shortcomings we will fill some day work Ibn Majid and that of his successor Sulaiman Al Mahri, appears in all its importance. In fact, treaties nautical tick this one detailing the state of relations mari- Interoceanic times in the second half of the fifteenth century ^ between the east coast of Africa from the Cape of Good Hope, and the famous port Zïtûn, to Fukien, y including the Red Sea, the Persian Gulf, and all Indian Ocean Islands and the large islands of Asia, the Philip- pines and Japan excepted. These are Arabic texts and the most important source of information for the end the average age for the knowledge of the South Seas to this time. By the admission of Ibn Majid, his Kitab al-Fawaid (s) its Hawiya and other treaties reproduce some measurement Sailing Directions written by his father and grandfather, and the guidance provided by older predecessors he used, corrected and developed for the sailors of the fifteenth century. His treatises and water road are therefore a kind of knowledge sum of all marine sea India: Arab sailors, zengs, Indian Western, colas, Western Indonesian, Chinese themselves, and it is actually an infinitely valuable contribution to the history of navigation and trade in the seas of South, before the Portuguese conquest.
We were surprised that two such important manuscripts ^ A and B have remained unknown for so long as the existence texts they contain were reported spoke translation Turke partial release of Sidi Ali and Reinaud. The latter had studied and had even written an article this subject. There is mention of his hand on a sheet Guard B, but as far as I know, there was never published,
1. See t. II of this publication, p. m.
Ferrand makes no mention of W Afr or ibn Majid on the referenced page 247 given by Bazan. Bazan is not proving himself a reliable scholar at all. since the Lioness found reference to ibn Majid on p.183 ff.
I searched Ferrand, thanks to tL.
Occidentale d'Afrique appears nowhere in that text.
All you Clyde groupies. You been had. You been took!
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
oes
This book does not prove that the Arabs knew about Majid's work before Vasco da Gama made his way to India. Even in this book they always refer to the Qubt book in reference to Majid.
If there is no mention of ibn Majid in the Arab nautical literature before the Qubt book, the Arabs only learned about Majid after da Gama reached India.This supports the view that Majid met da Gama before he sailed to India in West Africa as noted by Bazan.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
G. Ferrand, Introduction a l’astrnomie nautique des Arabes, Paris,1928 (p.247)
[Avant d'avoir atteint la côte occidentale de l'Inde et pendant qu'ils étaient sur la côte orientale d'Afrique], ils continuèrent à rechercher des renseignements sur cette mer [de l'Inde occidentale] jusqu'au moment où leur servit de pilote un marin habile appelé Ahmad ibn Mâjid avec lequel le chef des Francs appelé Almilandi, était entré en relations
translation:
while they were on the east coast of Africa], they continued to seek information about this sea [In Western India] until served them Pilot a clever sailor named Ahmad ibn Majid with which the leader of the Franks called Almilandi (Admiral) , had entered into relations
Original source:
Qutb al-Din Muhammad al-Nahrawali al-Makki (1511-1582) The so called "Turk' was of Gujarti origin himself but lived in Mecca. The text was commishioned by the govenor or Yemen after the Ottoman reconquest of Hijaz
about 1565>
^^^ WHILEST THEY WERE ON THE EAST COAST OF AFRICA
Bazan probably just made a mistake and said West Coast There is no earlier source (note it is assumed Almilandi, chief of the Franks = Vasco da Gama, however he is not mentioned by name)
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
247
sont naturellement écrits dans la langue astronomico-nautique propre aux gens de mers. Gomme cette langue spéciale n'a pas été étudiée encore, la traduction en est extrêmement malaisée et un certain nombre de termes me restent encore fermés.
Malgré ces lacunes qu'on comblera quelque jour, l'œuvre de Ibn Mâjid et celle de son continuateur Sulaymân al-Mahrï, apparaît dans toute son importance. En fait, les traités nau- tiques de celui-là exposent en détail l'état des relations mari- times interocéaniques dans la seconde moitié du xv^ siècle entre la côte orientale d'Afrique à partir du cap de Bonne- Espérance, et le port fameux de Zïtûn, au Fou-kien, en y comprenant la mer Rouge, le golfe Persique, et toutes les îles de l'Océan Indien et du grand archipel d'Asie, les Philip- pines et le Japon exceptés. Ces textes arabes constituent ainsi la source d'informations la plus importante de la fin du moyen âge pour la connaissance des mers du Sud à cette époque. De l'aveu même de Ibn Mâjid, son Kitâb al-fawâïd(l), sa Hâwiya et ses autres traités reproduisent dans une certaine mesure les Instructions nautiques rédigées par son père et son grand-père, et les indications fournies par de plus anciens prédécesseurs qu'il a utilisées, rectifiées et mises au point pour les marins du xv^ siècle. Ses traités et routiers nautiques sont ainsi une sorte de somme des connaissances de tous les marins de la mer de l'Inde : marins arabes, zengs, indiens occidentaux, colas, indonésiens occidentaux, chinois mêmes, et c'est en réalité une contribution infiniment précieuse à l'histoire de la navigation et du commerce dans les mers du Sud, antérieurement à la conquête portugaise.
On reste surpris que deux manuscrits aussi importants que A^et B soient restés si longtemps inconnus alors que l'existence des textes qu'ils contiennent avaient été signalée parla traduc- tion partielle de la version turke de Sïdî 'Alî et par Reinaud. Ce dernier les avait étudiés et avait même rédigé un article à ce sujet. Il en est fait mention de sa main, sur un feuillet de garde de B, mais autant que je sache, il ne fut jamais publié,
1. Cf. t. II de la présente publication, p. m.
MACHINE TRANSLATION
247
are naturally written in the language astronomico-water own people to seas. As this special language is not was studied again, the translation is extremely difficult and a number of terms are still closed to me.
Despite these shortcomings we will fill some day work Ibn Majid and that of his successor Sulaiman Al Mahri, appears in all its importance. In fact, treaties nautical tick this one detailing the state of relations mari- Interoceanic times in the second half of the fifteenth century ^ between the east coast of Africa from the Cape of Good Hope, and the famous port Zïtûn, to Fukien, y including the Red Sea, the Persian Gulf, and all Indian Ocean Islands and the large islands of Asia, the Philip- pines and Japan excepted. These are Arabic texts and the most important source of information for the end the average age for the knowledge of the South Seas to this time. By the admission of Ibn Majid, his Kitab al-Fawaid (s) its Hawiya and other treaties reproduce some measurement Sailing Directions written by his father and grandfather, and the guidance provided by older predecessors he used, corrected and developed for the sailors of the fifteenth century. His treatises and water road are therefore a kind of knowledge sum of all marine sea India: Arab sailors, zengs, Indian Western, colas, Western Indonesian, Chinese themselves, and it is actually an infinitely valuable contribution to the history of navigation and trade in the seas of South, before the Portuguese conquest.
We were surprised that two such important manuscripts ^ A and B have remained unknown for so long as the existence texts they contain were reported spoke translation Turke partial release of Sidi Ali and Reinaud. The latter had studied and had even written an article this subject. There is mention of his hand on a sheet Guard B, but as far as I know, there was never published,
1. See t. II of this publication, p. m.
Ferrand makes no mention of W Afr or ibn Majid on the referenced page 247 given by Bazan. Bazan is not proving himself a reliable scholar at all. since the Lioness found reference to ibn Majid on p.183 ff.
I searched Ferrand, thanks to tL.
Occidentale d'Afrique appears nowhere in that text.
All you Clyde groupies. You been had. You been took!
This was a wasted post. I noted on Friday I read the Ferrand book and there was no mention of West Africa in the book. This does not prove that Bazan is wrong about da Gama meeting Majid in West Africa. In the paper there is no reference to where he got the information following the statement.
A review of the literature makes it clear that there are at least 12 points that allow us to make the inference that da Gama met Majid before he sailed to India.They are: [b] 1) Bazan says that West Africans claimed Majid invented the compass and Vasco da Gama met Majid in West Africa;
2) Da Gama had been stationed and sailed along the West African coast so he could have met Majid there;
3) Da Gama, was a junior officer but he was chosen to make the voyage to India;
4) Portuguese had only rounded the Cape of Good Hope; but Da Gama sailed safely to Malindi;
5) the successful voyage to Malindi suggest Da Gama had good information on navigation in the Indian Ocean up to the Swahili cities;
6) the first mention of Majid by a Muslim writer is 50 years after Majid's death;
7)The Ottoman Historian Qutb al Din insist Da Gama met Majid in Malindi, and that he was born in Arabia;
8) Qutb al Din says Da Gama got Majid drunk and that while intoxicated , Majid told Da Gama how to get to India;
9) Portuguese say a Gujurati Christian, recommended by the ruler of Malindi guided Da Gama to India
10) it is clear that Majid’s Kitab al-Fawa’id fi Usul ‘Ilm al-Bahr wa ’l-Qawa’id, was a popular book on navigation in the Indian Ocean, it was not known before 1490 and maybe as late as 1500.
11) Ferrand does not cite any Arab source that mentions Majid’s Kitab al-Fawa’id, before the Ottoman historian Qutb al Din mentions him, 50 years after Majid had died.
The most important point is the Journal entry that Majid didn't meet da Gama at Malindi.This suggest that the story about meeting da Gama in West Africa, mentioned by Bazan, is probably true.
Although there is no mention in the Journal of Majid meeting da Gama in East Africa, the arjuza where Majid confesses his regret in helping da Gama reach India, appears to indicate that Majid did know da Gama and felt bad about the havoc the Portuguese took to the Indian Ocean countries. If they didn't meet at Malindi,the meeting of da Gama and Majid took place in West Africa.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
I am in full agreement and I think we both have said as much since p.1
We have delved deeply into this supplying quotes and texts where others have done no more than run off at the mouth and take sides based on personalities not realities.
No lies from whites about my history/culture No lies from blacks about my history/culture
Pride and ego are no excuse to spread honey coated lies across the Seven Seas
Bazan lied and Clyde promotes the lie even though conclusively shown indisputable facts from a wide variety of sources.
Had he fielded ES first he could've saved himself embarrassment and it is nothing but fear of embarrassment that makes him go on about something that never happened.
the animalistic in me makes me want to defend me makes me want to live when its time to die Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: This does not prove that Bazan is wrong about da Gama meeting Majid in West Africa.
Clyde please stop lying
Bazan says they met on the West Coast of Africa
not West Africa
West Africa does not include the whole Southern half of the Western coast of Africa
Clyde please stop lying, thanks
Bazan >>>
NOTE THE REFERENCE [5] "T.A. SHUMUSKY" IS FOR THE STATEMENT > "SOME WEST AFRICANS AFRICANS CONSIDER HIM THE INVENTOR OF THE COMPASS"
NOT ABOUT VASCO DA GAMA MEETING IBN MAJID ON THE WEST COAST OF AFRICA
THAT HAS NO REFERENCE !!!!
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Yeah, Clyde trying to save face just puts more egg on his face. Clyde knows he's wrong. Doesn't matter. His objective is to create an African history/culture so gotdamn incredible you just can't believe it's true!
Nonetheless I commend Clyde Winters for forcing whoever it was to retract their foolish statements about Fulani in their genetic report.
Where were all the so-called Black Scholars then? Well, you know, they were out there gobbling up all that Fulani Madness **** from out that geneticist's ass.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
NOTE THE REFERENCE [5] "T.A. SHUMUSKY" IS FOR THE STATEMENT > "SOME WEST AFRICANS AFRICANS CONSIDER HIM THE INVENTOR OF THE COMPASS"
NOT ABOUT VASCO DA GAMA MEETING IBN MAJID ON THE WEST COAST OF AFRICA
THAT HAS NO REFERENCE !!!!
Ibn Majid lived in Africa yet no Africans say he did, madness
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: G. Ferrand, Introduction a l’astrnomie nautique des Arabes, Paris,1928 (p.247)
[Avant d'avoir atteint la côte occidentale de l'Inde et pendant qu'ils étaient sur la côte orientale d'Afrique], ils continuèrent à rechercher des renseignements sur cette mer [de l'Inde occidentale] jusqu'au moment où leur servit de pilote un marin habile appelé Ahmad ibn Mâjid avec lequel le chef des Francs appelé Almilandi, était entré en relations
translation:
while they were on the east coast of Africa], they continued to seek information about this sea [In Western India] until served them Pilot a clever sailor named Ahmad ibn Majid with which the leader of the Franks called Almilandi (Admiral) , had entered into relations
Original source:
Qutb al-Din Muhammad al-Nahrawali al-Makki (1511-1582) The so called "Turk' was of Gujarti origin himself but lived in Mecca. The text was commishioned by the govenor or Yemen after the Ottoman reconquest of Hijaz
about 1565>
^^^ WHILEST THEY WERE ON THE EAST COAST OF AFRICA
Bazan probably just made a mistake and said West Coast There is no earlier source (note it is assumed Almilandi, chief of the Franks = Vasco da Gama, however he is not mentioned by name)
The quote about "occidentale de l'Inde", is not on page 247, it is found on page 197.
You win. I can not argue against the fact that Bazan may have got West Indies, mixed up with "occidentale de l'Inde". As a result, I have deleted the video.
I still believe that Majid and da Gama did meet before 1497. It is clear from the log, it was not at Malindi.
I will purchase the book on Majid's last writings and see if Bazan learned about Majid's meeting with da Gama in West Africa from the T.A. CHUMOVSKY book.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Try * Chi Univ library * Newberry libraray
Occurrences of "occidentale de l'Inde" in Ferrand all refer to western India. There are 5 of them as translated below not that anyone would mistake singular Inde for plural Indes if they could read French:
p.188 [Avant d'avoir atteint la côte occidentale de l'Inde et pendant qu'ils étaient sur la côte orientale d'Afrique], ils continuèrent à rechercher des renseignements sur cette mer [de l'Inde occidentale] jusqu'au moment où leur servit de pilote un marin habile appelé Ahmad ibn Mâjid avec lequel le chef des Francs appelé AlmilandP, était entré en relations est simplement la transcription arabe du portugais almirante « amiral ».
[Before reaching the west coast of India and while they were on the east coast of Africa], they continued to seek information about this sea [western India] until served them an able seaman driver called Ahmad ibn Majid with which the leader of the Franks called AlmilandP, had entered into relations is simply the Arabic transcription of Portuguese almirante "Admiral".
. .
p.240 Chapitre III traitant des routes maritimes dans les régions situées au vent et sous le vent, c'est-à-dire à l'Ouest et à l'Est du cap Gomorin. Il contient 7 sections : a. route de la mer du Hijâz, c'est-à-dire de la mer Rouge jusqu'au parallèle de Jedda ; i3. route le long de la côte méridionale de l'Arabie ; Y- route sur la côte nord-occidentale de l'Inde; S. route sur la côte orientale d'Afrique à partir de Bàb al-Mandam (ou Bâb al-Mandab); e. route au large de Hûriyâ^ de la côte arabique méridionale à Socotora ; Ç. routes sous le vent, sur la côte orientale de l'Inde ; q. route de la côte du Siam [c'est- à-dire sur les côtes occidentale et orientale de la péninsule malaise], sur les côtes du Siam propre, de l'Indochine et de la Chine occidentale.
Chapter III dealing with maritime routes in the regions upwind and downwind, that is to say in the West and in the East Gomorin of course. It contains seven sections: a. drive from the sea the Hijaz, that is to say the Red Sea to the parallel of Jedda; i3. road along the southern coast of Arabia; Y- road on the north-western coast of India; S. road the east coast of Africa from Bab al-Mandam (or Bab al-Mandab); e. road off the coast Huriya ^ South Arabian in Socotra; Ç. roads downwind on the eastern coast of India; q. drive from the coast of Siam [that is ie on the western and eastern coasts of the peninsula Malay], on the coast of own Siam, Indochina and Western China.
. .
p.241 Chapitre V traitant des latitudes établies d'après les hau- teurs du Gàh ou étoile polaire, des Farkadayn = (3 y de la Petite Ourse et des Na's =^ apyS de la Grande Ourse. Il •contient 7 sections indiquant les latitudes des ports de la mer Rouge ; de la côte Arabique orientale et de la côte occidentale de l'Inde ; de la côte orientale d'Afrique et de la côte occiden- tale de l'Inde et de Ceylan ; de la côte orientale d'Afrique au sud de Guardafui ; du golie du Bengale ; de l'île de Ceylan ; de Sumatra, de Java ; les bâàl des 28 mansions lunaires et les hauteurs deà étoiles connues.
Chapter V dealing with established latitudes from the heights GAH tors or North Star, the Farkadayn = (3 of them Little Bear and Na ^ = APYs's the Big Dipper. it • includes 7 sections showing latitudes Sea ports red; the eastern Arabian coast and the west coast from India; the east coast of Africa and the coast Western India and Ceylon; the east coast of Africa Southern Guardafui; golia of Bengal; of Ceylon; Sumatra, Java; Baal and the 28 lunar mansions AEDs known stars heights.
. .
p.241 Le chapitre VI traite des moussons de l'Océan Indien dont les dates sont exprimées en comput persan. Les moussons sont divisées en deux catégories : la première catégorie ou mousson du vent d'Ouest se subdivise à son tour en deux sortes. La première sorte est appelée tête du vent et comprend les moussons suivantes : mousson d'Aden pour se rendre sur la côte occidentale de l'Inde, mousson de Sihr pour la même destination ; mousson de Zufâr, mousson des Sawâhil ou de la côte orientale d'Afrique pour la même destination ; mousson des Sawâhil à destination de la côte arabique méridionale ; mousson du Guzerate, du Konkan, du Malabar, des Maldives, de Sihr, de Zufâr, de Mascate à destination de Malaka, Sumatra, Tenasserim, du Bengale ; mousson de Zayla' et de Berbéra, à la côte sud-arabique ; mousson de Aden à Hormûz.
Chapter VI deals with the Indian Ocean monsoons which dates are expressed in Persian reckoning. monsoons are divided into two categories: the first category or West monsoon wind in turn divided into two kinds. The first kind is called head wind and includes the following monsoons: Aden monsoon to get to the western coast of India, monsoon Sihr for the same destination; Zufar monsoon, monsoon of Sawâhil or east coast of Africa to the same destination; monsoon of Sawâhil to the southern Arabian coast; Guzerate monsoon, Konkan, Malabar, Maldives, of Sihr of Zufar, Muscat to Malacca, Sumatra, Tenasserim, Bengal; Monsoon Zayla 'and of Berbera, on the South Arabian coast; Aden monsoon Hormuz.
. .
p.241 Les moussons de la deuxième sorte de la première catégorie sont les moussons de la Mekke (c'est-à-dire de Jedda), de Sawâkin, de Zayla', d'Aden, de Sihr, de Maskâs, de Zufâr -et de Kalahât à destination de la côte occidentale de l'Inde.
The monsoons of the second kind of the first category the monsoons are of Mecca (that is to say Jedda) of Sawakin of Zayla 'Aden to Sihr of Maskâs of Zufar -and of Kalahât to the western coast of India.
. .
You're only digging yourself deeper into the same hole holding out for one obscure Bazan reference even he never quoted nor cited. You been had, you been took.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Here's an interesting book
THE PORTUGUESE PIONEERS EDGAR PRESTAGE MACMILLAN 1933
When he was first put on shore and left with the relatives of a native brought to Portugal by Antao Gongalves, who were shepherds, the latter stripped him of his clothes and gave him a burnous and took him to their country, which was all sandy, both hill and plain, except for some oases where their sheep fed; the only trees were palms, the only water came from wells. During his wanderings Fernandes learnt about the interior of North- West Africa. The people were Arabs, Azenegues and Berbers, living in tents; their wealth consisted in their herds and in the negroes they captured and sold to Moors in exchange for bread and other things. They changed camp frequently, for the longest they could stay in any one spot was eight days. Milk was their chief food and that of their horses and dogs, but sometimes they ate a little meal and the seeds, of wild herbs. When they could get wheat, they took it with the gusto the Portuguese showed for confetti. Those who lived by the sea sustained themselves on fish only, which they generally ate raw or dried. For clothing they had vests and breeches of skins, but the more honourable wore burnouses, and a few of higher rank were well clad and owned good horses, saddles and stirrups. The women covered their faces, but their bodies were quite naked, a proof, observes Zurara, of their great bestiality, 'for if they had some particle of reason, they would follow nature*. The wives of the
______________
On the way from Mombasa some Moors had been taken off a boat, and da Gama despatched one of them to the Sultan to announce his desire for friendly relations and pilots for India; a favourable answer came, presents were exchanged and he moved nearer the town and anchored. The Sultan thereupon sent him six sheep and a quantity of valuable spices, and suggested an inter- view, which took place on the 1 8th; he was rowed to the flagship dressed in a damask robe trimmed with green satin, wearing a rich turban, and seated on cushioned chairs of bronze under a crimson umbrella, and musi- cians accompanied him sounding ivory trumpets. Da Gama entered his pinnace and talked with him through an interpreter, but did not accept an invitation to visit the palace, saying that his master would not allow him to land until he reached India; he had learnt caution by his experiences at Mozambique and Mombasa. However, he released the prisoners he had taken en route, which greatly pleased the Sultan, who, on the termination of his three hours' visit, made the circuit of the vessels amid salvoes from the bombards, and the next day da Gama had himself rowed along the front of the town and witnessed a sham fight arranged in his honour, but again refused to go on shore. Four vessels, said to belong to Indian Christians, were in port, and when some of their crew came on board the St. Gabriel, they prostrated themselves and prayed before a picture of Our Lady at the foot of the cross holding the dead Christ in her arms. They probably thought it represented one of their gods, but the Portuguese saw in the action proof of a common faith, and rejoiced accordingly. They were naturally confirmed in this belief when
259
THE PORTUGUESE PIONEERS
another day, on seeing da Gama pass, the same sup- posed Christians uttered cries of 'Christ! Christ!' probably 'Krishna', the second person of their Trinity. The nine days' stay was rendered agreeable by fStes, sham fights and musical entertainments, but the promised pilot did not appear; however, by detaining a confidential servant of the Sultan, a Guzerati pilot, the well-known Ibn Majid, also mistaken for a Christian, was obtained, and on the 24th the fleet sailed for Calicut. After running up the African coast for some days, it steered over the Indian Ocean, and twenty-three days later the Ghats came in view on 1 8 May. The Roteiro says nothing of the emotion which must have overtaken the navigators at the first sight of Asia, but Camoens, who came the same way half a century later and used his own experiences in relating the voyage of da Gama, lays stress on their relief and on the Captain's gratitude to the Almighty : Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by kdolo: Do you even listen to your own words ?
"We already know about Portuguese exploration of Atlantic Africa. Dias had got as far as SE Africa just aroun the Cape in the Indian Ocean, unlike Clyde who surmises da Gama knew nothing of Dias' voyage to Kwaaihoek.
Thank you
So far no documentation for da Gama sailing the West African or even the western African coast for years."
De Gama, his father, and the Portugues court had decades of intelligence gathering of maritime activity in the Atlantic and West Africa. In fact, de Gama was chosen for the mission at first for exactly this experience.
"The task, originally given to Vasco da Gama's father, was finally offered to Vasco by Manuel I on the strength of his record of protecting Portuguese trading stations along the African Gold Coast from depredations by the French." Wiki
These are the facts: Portuguese, West Africa, decades, sponsored Royal intelligence gathering and trade, maritime, De Gama - West African experience.
So let me rephrase then: De Gama along with his own personal experience in West Africa had access to the decades of cumulative intelligence of Portuguese efforts.
Good post Kdolo, I never said anything earlier because a simple perusal of the Wiki page on da Gama tells us about his activities along the West coast of Africa.
. .
Nope. No Vasco da Gama serving along the "West African coast for years".
Reliance on Wiki as a valid source vs ye olde standard, referencing books
WIKI (authored by lord only knows who):
"The task, originally given to Vasco da Gama's father, was finally offered to Vasco by Manuel I on the strength of his record of protecting Portuguese trading stations along the African Gold Coast from depredations by the French."
JOURNAL (translator EG Ravenstein's intro):
We know next to nothing of Vasco da Gama’s youth. When King João, after the return of Bartholomeu Dias, decided to fit out an armada to complete the discovery of an ocean highway to India, he selected Vasco da Gama as its captain-major, and this choice of the King was confirmed by his successor, D. Manuel. 2 Such an appointment would not have been made had not Vasco da Gama already been known as a man of energy, xiv capacity and competent knowledge. We ought therefore not be surprised if Garcia de Resende, in his Chronicle of D. João II (c. 146), tells us that he was a man whom the King trusted, as he had already served in his fleets and in maritime affairs, and whom he had consequently charged, in 1492, with the task of seizing the French vessels lying in the ports of Algarve, in reprisal for the capture by a French pirate of a Portuguese caravel returning from S. Jorge da Mina with gold. 3
[2] According to Castanheda, the appointment was at first offered to Paulo da Gama, Vasco’s elder brother. He declined on account of ill-health, but offered to accompany his brother as captain of one of the vessels.
Relying on unvetted Wiki for an ES post equals showing up with a stick at a gun fight.
Can you imagine Wiki in your PhD?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: This does not prove that Bazan is wrong about da Gama meeting Majid in West Africa.
Clyde please stop lying
Bazan says they met on the West Coast of Africa
not West Africa
West Africa does not include the whole Southern half of the Western coast of Africa
Clyde please stop lying, thanks
Bazan >>>
NOTE THE REFERENCE [5] "T.A. SHUMUSKY" IS FOR THE STATEMENT > "SOME WEST AFRICANS AFRICANS CONSIDER HIM THE INVENTOR OF THE COMPASS"
NOT ABOUT VASCO DA GAMA MEETING IBN MAJID ON THE WEST COAST OF AFRICA
THAT HAS NO REFERENCE !!!!
Are you implying that the West Coast of Africa is not West Africa? If it is not at West Africa, then where is it?
Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
I'm sorry, but I don't see logic in this map. Why didn't he sail along the coast? If he was unfamiliar with the route?
Instead he drifted of off the coast.
He did not sail along the coast because he did not know how well he would be recieved. Reading the log, it appears that except for people in the Swahili cities, most Africans did not welcome strangers.
Clyde I looked up Atlantic Winds and Currents. It's interesting and remarkable at the same time. We have to understand that back then they sailed by wind current. Not by motor base.
This one is clearer,
You are so right about the Currents and West Africans sailing to the Americas it was a marvelous discovery. It is clear we need to know more. Just think about the knowledge that is contained in the numerous Libraries of Timbuktu which might enligten us on this theme.
I see this in the light of the destruction of Timbuktu, by Morocco. The sultan of that time took the manuscripts. Who knows what knowledge those manuscripts held?
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
I'm sorry, but I don't see logic in this map. Why didn't he sail along the coast? If he was unfamiliar with the route?
Instead he drifted of off the coast.
He did not sail along the coast because he did not know how well he would be recieved. Reading the log, it appears that except for people in the Swahili cities, most Africans did not welcome strangers.
Clyde I looked up Atlantic Winds and Currents. It's interesting and remarkable at the same time. We have to understand that back then they sailed by wind current. Not by motor base.
This one is clearer,
You are so right about the Currents and West Africans sailing to the Americas it was a marvelous discovery. It is clear we need to know more. Just think about the knowledge that is contained in the numerous Libraries of Timbuktu which might enligten us on this theme.
I see this in the light of the destruction of Timbuktu, by Morocco. The sultan of that time took the manuscripts. Who knows what knowledge those manuscripts held?
The nautical knowledge of West Africans is very hard to research because Africans did not see foriegn trade as an important player in the rise and maintenance of their kingdoms. As a result, I believe griots didn't make this a major theme of their story telling.
The fact that Bazan claimed 1) da Gama met Majid in the West Africa; and 2) Africans claim Majid invented the compass are significant statements. They indicate the high state of West African nautical sciences. But, alas, without knowing the source of this information you can't extend knowledge about the subject.
What I do know is that Bazan was not some Black Nationalist, as a result, he could gain nothing from claiming Majid met da Gama in West Africa, when the popular literature claimed he was the pilot that took da Gama to India from Malindi. We know that Majid had met da Gama, because he appears to apologize for telling da Gama how to get to India, due to the havoc, the Portuguese caused in the Indian Ocean. This makes me find truth in what Bazan wrote.
The only way you can support the navigation experience of the West Africans is through linguistics. The fact that the same placenames appear in West Africa and the Indian Ocean suggest that West Africans knew about travel and trade in the Indian Ocean. In addition, the Nahuatl/Aztec word for boat is of Mande origin. This along with the fact that the major seafaring Maya tribe was the Chontal, a tribe identified as being negro, provides more support to the West African navigation ability, since the Mande languages is a substratum language of the Mayan family. All of this shows that West Africans also played a major role in the navigation of the Americas , as well.
This is enough proof for me, but I would like to see more text relating to the subject. I still stand behind these 12 points that support Bazan's claim about a West African meeting between Majid and da Gama.
quote:
A review of the literature makes it clear that there are at least 12 points that allow us to make the inference that da Gama met Majid before he sailed to India.They are: 1) Bazan says that West Africans claimed Majid invented the compass and Vasco da Gama met Majid in West Africa;
2) Da Gama had been stationed and sailed along the West African coast so he could have met Majid there;
3) Da Gama, was a junior officer but he was chosen to make the voyage to India;
4) Portuguese had only rounded the Cape of Good Hope; but Da Gama sailed safely to Malindi;
5) the successful voyage to Malindi suggest Da Gama had good information on navigation in the Indian Ocean up to the Swahili cities;
6) the first mention of Majid by a Muslim writer is 50 years after Majid's death;
7)The Ottoman Historian Qutb al Din insist Da Gama met Majid in Malindi, and that he was born in Arabia;
8) Qutb al Din says Da Gama got Majid drunk and that while intoxicated , Majid told Da Gama how to get to India;
9) Portuguese say a Gujurati Christian, recommended by the ruler of Malindi guided Da Gama to India
10) it is clear that Majid’s Kitab al-Fawa’id fi Usul ‘Ilm al-Bahr wa ’l-Qawa’id, was a popular book on navigation in the Indian Ocean, it was not known before 1490 and maybe as late as 1500.
11) Ferrand does not cite any Arab source that mentions Majid’s Kitab al-Fawa’id, before the Ottoman historian Qutb al Din mentions him, 50 years after Majid had died.
The most important point is the Journal entry that Majid didn't meet da Gama at Malindi.This suggest that the story about meeting da Gama in West Africa, mentioned by Bazan, is probably true.
Although there is no mention in the Journal of Majid meeting da Gama in East Africa, the arjuza where Majid confesses his regret in helping da Gama reach India, appears to indicate that Majid did know da Gama and felt bad about the havoc the Portuguese took to the Indian Ocean countries. If they didn't meet at Malindi,the meeting of da Gama and Majid took place in West Africa.
If the source of Bazan's statement is out there if God wills I will find it. .
Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Timbuktu’s golden era was abruptly halted by the Moroccan invasion in 1591, initiated by the Sa’dian ruler of Morocco, Mawlay Ahmed al-Mansur. The intellectual and commercial importance of Timbuktu gradually began to decline after the invasion. Just one of the victims of this invasion was Ahmed Baba, who was exiled with his entire family to Morocco (1593 – 1608). In addition, much of his extensive library was destroyed.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: I see this in the light of the destruction of Timbuktu, by Morocco. The sultan of that time took the manuscripts. Who knows what knowledge those manuscripts held?
The sad thing is that there are still hundreds of manuscripts in Timbuktu that needs to be translated. At many of the Universities in Northern Nigeria, there are many people skilled in reading Arabic and Ajami (Arabic written as a West African lingua franca) , that could translate and publish these books. But alas, we have no millionaire Africans or Afro-Americans that will support this venture, so we will have little influence over the writing and elaboration of this history.
We can talk all we want about whites stealing history--but until our millionaires support efforts to recover African/Black history. That is what impresses me about the founders of the Oriental Institute, by claiming the Sumerians and Egyptians were white they obtained millions dollars in donations and today store thousands of artifacts relating to Black civilizations in the museum. And they continue to sponsor research in Egypt.
The only rich Brother that had a real interest in Black history was Avery Franklin Brooks ,the star of Deep Space 9, he made a play about the Olmecs, based on King Lear and the research of Ivan and myself.
Just think what knowledge we would have about African civilization if we could get the Black millionaires interested in Black history, instead of using drugs.......
Aluta Continua......
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by ausar:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: ... Africans did not see foriegn trade as an important player in the rise and maintenance of their kingdoms. As a result, I believe griots didn't make this a major theme of their story telling.
. .
Utter nonsense. Since the LSA Africans were involved with each other in long distance trade. No kingdom rose anywhere besides due to trade and controlling it.
This is true of West Africa, south Central Africa, and Southeast Africa, as well as Kush, Wawat, and Ancient Egypt.
There are plenty of oral documents in keep of non-written historians detailing Abubakari's abdication and the negative attitude of most of the court and citizenry toward that emperor, especially after his plan was made public.
Stop speculating. Start researching.
Where are the African documents detailing their trade with the Arabs...or the Europeans?
Granted trade took place, but Africans have never seen business dealing as an important aspect of their history and oral literature, from Egyptian times up to today. The only Black civilization that made business dealings a part of their literature were the Sumerians, who have left of thousands of business documents written in Sumerian.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: ... Africans did not see foriegn trade as an important player in the rise and maintenance of their kingdoms. As a result, I believe griots didn't make this a major theme of their story telling.
. .
Utter nonsense. Since the LSA Africans have been involved with each other in long distance trade. No kingdom rose anywhere besides due to trade and controlling it.
This is true of West Africa (Tichitt, Kanem, Nok, Yoruba) south Central Africa (Kongo, Luba, Ngola), and Southeast Africa (Zimbabwe, Mutapa), as well as Kush, Wawat, and Ancient Egypt, and Axum.
There are plenty of oral documents in keep of non-written historians detailing Abubakari's abdication and the negative attitude of most of the court and citizenry toward that emperor, especially after his plan was made public.
Stop speculating. Start researching.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
You exaggerate the popularity of Abubakari among griots. Baxter in BBC News noted that:
quote: Mr Diawara says the paradox of Abubakari II, is that the Griots themselves imposed a seal of silence on the story. "The Griots found his abdication a shameful act, not worthy of praise," Mr Diawara said. "For that reason they have refused to sing praise or talk of this great African man." Mr Diawara says the Griots in West Africa such as Sadio Diabate, are slowly starting to divulge the secrets on Abubakari II.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: ... Africans did not see foriegn trade as an important player in the rise and maintenance of their kingdoms. As a result, I believe griots didn't make this a major theme of their story telling.
. .
Utter nonsense. Since the LSA Africans were involved with each other in long distance trade. No kingdom rose anywhere besides due to trade and controlling it.
This is true of West Africa, south Central Africa, and Southeast Africa, as well as Kush, Wawat, and Ancient Egypt.
There are plenty of oral documents in keep of non-written historians detailing Abubakari's abdication and the negative attitude of most of the court and citizenry toward that emperor, especially after his plan was made public.
Stop speculating. Start researching.
Where are the African documents detailing their trade with the Arabs...or the Europeans?
Granted trade took place, but Africans have never seen business dealing as an important aspect of their history and oral literature, from Egyptian times up to today. The only Black civilization that made business dealings a part of their literature were the Sumerians, who have left of thousands of business documents written in Sumerian.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Bazan is a broken crutch. He mistakes west for east. His references to date do not support his allegations.
It is only feel good sloppy non-scholarship that would rely on a 20th century solo acclamation in the face of countless sources written before 1957 that know nothing of ibn Majid being either in West Africa or a West African citizen.
Repeating a lie 1000 times does not make it a truth.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Start making sense.
Since when do oral literate societies leave written records.
Also Sumerian accounts are simple bills and orders, merchant-customer or merchant to merchant. They do not detail government trade secrets. No ancient kingdom ever did any such thing. It'd be stupid and allow competitors to knock them out of the trade.
The question you should be asking is where are documents detailing ibn Majid in W Afr and documents saying W Afrs believe ibn Majid invented the compass.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Where are the African documents detailing their trade with the Arabs...or the Europeans?
Granted trade took place, but Africans have never seen business dealing as an important aspect of their history and oral literature, from Egyptian times up to today. The only Black civilization that made business dealings a part of their literature were the Sumerians, who have left of thousands of business documents written in Sumerian.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Liar I wrote the historians (doma not simple griots) were displeased with Abubakari. You lie and twist my words. I'm warning you now not to lie anymore about what I say.
Progress cannot be made if a poster must constantly defend themselves against obvious outright lies.
No poster to ES deserves to have their words twisted into a lie and I will on request delete any post that tells an outright lie about what someone posted unless the liar recants.
If you can't deal with what I say then ignore it but you will not lie on me.
Now go reread what I wrote and repeat it before you comment on it again. And make it clear to the readers I did not state Abubakari was popular.
The only reason for your lies is you have absolutely nothing to offer from a single pre-1957 reliable source that ibn Majid was in West Africa.
Unable to defend your helplessly weak thesis you deflect, distract, detract, divert, and otherwise seek to disrupt with illogical responses that do not even follow up what they supposedly speak to.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: You exaggerate the popularity of Abubakari among griots. Baxter in BBC News noted that:
quote: Mr Diawara says the paradox of Abubakari II, is that the Griots themselves imposed a seal of silence on the story. "The Griots found his abdication a shameful act, not worthy of praise," Mr Diawara said. "For that reason they have refused to sing praise or talk of this great African man." Mr Diawara says the Griots in West Africa such as Sadio Diabate, are slowly starting to divulge the secrets on Abubakari II.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: I see this in the light of the destruction of Timbuktu, by Morocco. The sultan of that time took the manuscripts. Who knows what knowledge those manuscripts held?
The sad thing is that there are still hundreds of manuscripts in Timbuktu that needs to be translated. At many of the Universities in Northern Nigeria, there are many people skilled in reading Arabic and Ajami (Arabic written as a West African lingua franca) , that could translate and publish these books. But alas, we have no millionaire Africans or Afro-Americans that will support this venture, so we will have little influence over the writing and elaboration of this history.
We can talk all we want about whites stealing history--but until our millionaires support efforts to recover African/Black history. That is what impresses me about the founders of the Oriental Institute, by claiming the Sumerians and Egyptians were white they obtained millions dollars in donations and today store thousands of artifacts relating to Black civilizations in the museum. And they continue to sponsor research in Egypt.
The only rich Brother that had a real interest in Black history was Avery Franklin Brooks ,the star of Deep Space 9, he made a play about the Olmecs, based on King Lear and the research of Ivan and myself.
Just think what knowledge we would have about African civilization if we could get the Black millionaires interested in Black history, instead of using drugs.......
Aluta Continua......
.
While I doubt the court and administration would allow anyone to walk off with original government documents if there weren't more copies around, I must agree with 99% of you post.
I was alarmed back when Hagan was on one of the boards controlling access to the collected libraries of various Timbuktu families who had secured them over the centuries. I was relieved after she was removed.
But the greatest danger from militant taMazight iMazighen was the recent destruction by Islamic so-called fundamentalists, Ansar Din.
Besides the South African government I didn't know about Avery donations. Now SA dropped out.
African man up side don't see."
It is the shame of at least the countries who once were a part of the Songhai Empire that any non-Afrikan funds are needed though appreciated.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Start making sense.
Since when do oral literate societies leave written records.
Also Sumerian accounts are simple bills and orders, merchant-customer or merchant to merchant. They do not detail government trade secrets. No ancient kingdom ever did any such thing. It'd be stupid and allow competitors to knock them out of the trade.
The question you should be asking is where are documents detailing ibn Majid in W Afr and documents saying W Afrs believe ibn Majid invented the compass.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Where are the African documents detailing their trade with the Arabs...or the Europeans?
Granted trade took place, but Africans have never seen business dealing as an important aspect of their history and oral literature, from Egyptian times up to today. The only Black civilization that made business dealings a part of their literature were the Sumerians, who have left of thousands of business documents written in Sumerian.
We are not talking about State secrets,Africans did not record even the most basic information detailing their trading partners.African people just do not like to write history.
Historical writing is based on textual evidence. If there are no text you can't write history.
That's why even in the BBC article they mentioned the writings of Umari who recorded the story about Abubakari's expedition. It is the absence of recognized written text that make it impossible to write about many historical events . As a result, no matter what griots know about an event or phenomena, it dosen't matter, because its not recorded.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Bazan is a broken crutch. He mistakes west for east. His references to date do not support his allegations.
It is only feel good sloppy non-scholarship that would rely on a 20th century solo acclamation in the face of countless sources written before 1957 that know nothing of ibn Majid being either in West Africa or a West African citizen.
Repeating a lie 1000 times does not make it a truth.
You can not say that Bazan's references have not supported his statement about West African nautical sciences since no one has read T.A. CHUMOVSKY's Tres Roteiros Desconhecidos de Ahmad Ibn-Madjid o Piloto Arabe de Vasco da Gama. And even if I don't find it there, there is enough evidence found in my 12 points to make the necessary inferences supporting Bazan's statements.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Start making sense.
Since when do oral literate societies leave written records.
Also Sumerian accounts are simple bills and orders, merchant-customer or merchant to merchant. They do not detail government trade secrets. No ancient kingdom ever did any such thing. It'd be stupid and allow competitors to knock them out of the trade.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Where are the African documents detailing their trade with the Arabs...or the Europeans?
Granted trade took place, but Africans have never seen business dealing as an important aspect of their history and oral literature, from Egyptian times up to today. The only Black civilization that made business dealings a part of their literature were the Sumerians, who have left of thousands of business documents written in Sumerian.
I was not just talking about " simple bills and orders, merchant-customer or merchant to merchant", I was talking about the fact that Sumerians mention trade with Magan (Egypt), Meluha (Punt) and Dilmun (Indus Valley) and the presence of boats from these countries in their ports. Mention of Magan, Meluha and Dilmun provides textual evidence of trade with other nations, and do not give away trade secrets.
.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
You can not say that Bazan's references have not supported his statement about West African nautical sciences since no one has read T.A. CHUMOVSKY's Tres Roteiros Desconhecidos de Ahmad Ibn-Madjid o Piloto Arabe de Vasco da Gama. And even if I don't find it there, there is enough evidence found in my 12 points to make the necessary inferences supporting Bazan's statements.
Again, Bazan references T.A. Chumovsky only to claim that Chumovsky said that West Africans say that Ibn Majid invented the compass Not that he met Ibn Majid on the West Coast of Africa.
T.A. Chumovsky's book is a translation of three of Ibn Majid's shipping manuals "The Three Rutters" (Roteiros) and may have an introduction or commenatry written by him ( Chumovsky)
In this translation Ibn Majid supposedly in his own words laments having given navigational information to Vasco da Gama whom he supposedly met in East Africa
The Syrian historian Ibrahim Khoury and later Luis de Albuquerque discovered from internal evidence that while there should have been 701 verses in the manula there were as many as 807 and that the source manuscript had been added to by later authors.
So you can spend a few hours reading T.A. Chumovsky's translation and the best you are going to find is Ibn Majid, in a doctored document, supposedly claiming he met Majid in East Africa
not on the West coast of Africa where da Gama had landed for a week in the Bay of St. Helena on the Western Cape
As per da Gama's earlier background there is no record of what he did. It is not known about only that he was a knight of the Order of Santiago and defended the Portugese coast
So you can go to even a corrupted translation of Ibn Majid and you will not find any mention of da Gama prior to his first voyage to India
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Sanjay Subrahmanyam , in the The Career and Legend of Vasco Da Gama , does not destroy the idea that Vasco da Gama met Ahmad ibn Majid. Subrahmanyam argues that Majid could not have met da Gama because 1) the pilot who guided da Gama to India was a Gujurati; and 2) the Moorish pilot who da Gama took back to Lisbon spoke “Italian”. Subrahmanyam believes that Qutb made up the story about da Gama meeting ibn Majid to make it appear that the Ottomans were in the “forefront of the anti-Portuguese struggle”.
In A Journal of the First Voyage of Vasco da Gama 1497-1499 it is made clear that the pilot from Malindi was a Gujarati. It says “ Malemo Canaqua, or Cana, the pilot who guided Vasco da Gama from Melinde to Calecut. He was a native of Gujarat (Barros, I, pt. 1, pp. 319, 328, 330; Goes, I, c. 38; Castanheda, I, p. 41). Malemo stands for “muallim” or “mallim”, “master” or “teacher”, the usual native designation of the skipper of a vessel, whilst “Kanaka” designates the pilot’s caste” http://www.gutenberg.org/files/46440/46440-h/46440-h.htm
There is no evidence that Malemo Canaquo , the Gujarati pilot, left India with da Gama on his return trip to Malindi. It appears that once they reached Calicut, Canaquo left the Portuguese.This is probably the reason why da Gama was lost and made an erratic return to East Africa from India.
The Portuguese were lost, as a result it is clear the pilot they had got from Malindi was not with them. Thus we read, that the pirate captured by da Gama declared that they were sent to find him and take his boat because they were lost.
quote: When we were about two hundred leagues out at sea, the Moor whom we had taken with us declared that the time for dissembling was now past. It was true that he had heard at the house of his master that we had lost ourselves along the coast, and were unable to find our way home; that for this reason many vessels had been despatched to capture us; and that his master had sent him to find out what we were doing and to entice us to his country, for if a privateer had taken us he would not have received a share of the booty, whilst if we had landed within his territory we should have been completely in his power, and being valiant men, he could have employed us in his wars with the neighbouring kings. This reckoning, however, was made without the host.
This pirate was a Moor. He knew much about navigating in the Indian Ocean. This pirate after being captured by da Gama was taken back to Lisbon. His name was Gaspar da Gama or Gaspar da India. In A Journal of the First Voyage of Vasco da Gama 1497-1499,Author: Unknown http://www.gutenberg.org/files/46440/46440-h/46440-h.htm , we read:
quote: * Gaspar da Gama. This is the “Moor”, or renegade, who joined Vasco da Gama at Anjediva Island. Our anonymous author describes him as about forty years of age, and as being able to speak “Venetian” well. He claimed to have come to India in early youth, and was at the time in the service of the Governor of Goa. Vasco da Gama carried him to Portugal, where he was baptized and received the name of Gaspar da Gama. In the Commentaries of Afonso Dalboquerque (Hakluyt Society, 1884) he is frequently referred to as Gaspar da India. Correa (Lendas da India) usually refers to him as Gaspar da Gama, but also calls him Gaspar de las Indias, or Gaspar d’Almeida. King Manuel, in his letter to the Cardinal Protector, calls him a “Jew, who turned Christian, a merchant and lapidary”. Sernigi (see p. 136) held a conversation with him at Lisbon. He speaks of him as a Sclavonian Jew, born at Alexandria.
This is an important passage because we learn that Gaspar da Gama, was a pirate, who probably knew much about Indian navigation, so he had the ability to be a pilot. Plus we learn that Gaspar da Gama, spoke ” Venetian”, which was the same as saying that he spoke Italian.
The King of Portugal was fond of Gaspar da Gama, he even wrote a letter to the Cardinal Protector in 1499, about this Jew who was “a merchant and lapidary”. He wrote:
quote: II.—King Manuel to the Cardinal Protector, August 28th, 1499.
Most Reverend Father in Christ, whom we love much as a brother! We, Dom Manuel, by the Grace of God King of Portugal and of the Algarves on this side of and beyond the sea, in Africa, Lord of Guinea and of the Conquest the Navigation and Commerce of Ethiopia, Arabia, Persia and India, We send to recommend to your Reverence ... very great news ... Our Lord having ended our labours in the exploration of Ethiopia and India, of other countries, and eastern islands ... we inform you with pleasure ... and in order that you may know the progress of events we enclose the draught of a letter which we wrote to the Holy Father ... Beyond what we wrote to his Holiness, your Reverence must know that those who have just returned from this investigation and discovery visited, among other ports of India, a city called Qualicut, whence they brought us cinnamon, cloves ... the King looks upon himself and the major part of his people as Christian ... throughout the year there are found there cucumbers, oranges, lemons and citrons ... there are great fleets ... The island of Taprobane, which is called Ceilam,274 is 150 leagues from Qualicut ... Our people brought five or six Indians from Qualicut ... moreover a Moor of Tunes ... and a Jew, who turned Christian, and who is a merchant and lapidary, and well acquainted with the coasts from Alexandria to India, and beyond with the interior (sertão) and Tartary as far as the major sea.... As soon as we had these news we ordered general processions to be made throughout our kingdom, returning many thanks to Our Lord ... His Holiness and your Reverence must (deve) publicly rejoice no less and give many praises to God. Also, whereas by Apostolical grants we enjoy very fully the sovereignty and dominion of all we have discovered, in such manner that little or nothing else seems needed, yet would it please us, and we affectionately beg that after you shall have handed our letters to the Holy Father and the College of Cardinals, it may please you, speaking in this as if from yourself, to ask for a fresh expression of satisfaction with reference to a matter of such novelty and great and recent merit, so as to obtain His Holiness’s renewed approval and declaration, in such form as may appear best to you, most Reverend Father, whom Our Lord hold in his keeping.
The letter of King Manuel and Journal of the First Voyage make it clear that the “pilot” mentioned in the letter from Lisbon to Florence about a Moorish pilot who could speak Italian, was neither Malemo canaquo or Ahmad ibn Majid.
This pilot mentioned in the letter was Gaspar da Gama, not Majid. As a result, it does not dispute the possibility that Vasco da Gama met Majid before his voyage to India.
The Turks claim Da Gama may have met Majid at Malindi, while Bazan and T.A. CHUMOVSKY claim they met in West Africa. The successful voyage of Da Gama from Portugal to Malindi suggest, that, the only way Da Gama got to India was probably through the knowledge he learned from Majid in West African , not Malindi.
The Ottoman story about Ahmad ibn Majid life is probably fiction.The Ottomans probably placed Majid's home in Oman because other West Africans may have lived there at this time.
According to the Turks, Majid published his Kitab al-Fawa’id fi Usul ‘Ilm al-Bahr wa ’l-Qawa’id (Book of Useful Information on the Principles and Rules of Navigation) in 1489 or 1490, while at the same time claiming that Vasco da Gama made Majid drunk to trick him into leading him to India. Are we to believe that if Majid was an Omani he would have betrayed his fellow Muslim brothers, when alledgely he knew the importance of the Indian Ocean trade to the Omanis. The answer would be a resounding: NO.
The Arabs probably learned about the work of Majid after Da Gama made his voyage to India. This is the only way the Ottoman probably began the myth that Majid piloted Da Gama’s ship to India, when the actual guide or pilot was a Gujurati sailor.
What probably really happened was this. Da Gama reached India. In India the merchants asked Vasco da Gama how did he find his way to Malindi and India. It was probably then that Da Gama told them about Majid. After further investigation the Arabs and Turks probably sent people to West Africa to get Majid’s Kitab al-Fawa’id fi Usul ‘Ilm al-Bahr wa ’l-Qawa’id .
If Da Gama met Ahmad ibn Majid in West Africa, he was a West African navigator. Although Majid himself lived in West Africa, there were probably communities of West Africanss throughout the Indian Ocean and Pacific. This is supported by shared toponyms (place-names) in West Africa and the Pacific-India region, and the Niger-Congo substratum in Austronesian languages.
The Turks claim that Ahmad ibn Majid was an Omani. Other researchers claim Vasco Da Gama met Majid in West Africa. The information about Ahmad ibn Majid of West Africa , comes from R.A.G. Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam,,Muslim World, (1967) pp.284-292.
The Turk account of Majid , comes from The Ottoman conquest of the Yemen , this book discusses the Portuguese entry into the Indian Ocean . It was written 50 years after the Da Gama voyage, and the death of Majid. This authors claim that Majid was drinking with a Frank merchant and Da Gama, and gave him the secrets to navigation in the Indian Ocean this seems highly unlikely for two reasons. First, where did this drinking take place, between Da Gama, the German and Majid; was it in Oman or East Africa. This sounds illogical because how did Da Gama, get to Oman, if he didn’t know the way until he was instructed by Majid in navigation of the Indian Ocean.
Secondly, Da Gama made it clear he got an Indian pilot at Malindi to guide him to India. Ask yourself, how would Da Gama have known he would need an Indian pilot to reach India, because they used the Monsoons. It was knowledge of the monsoons that made Da Gama's voyage to India smooth, but his return to Africa without a guide horrendous.
This makes the Turk story about Majid unlikely. Since it was written 50 years after the voyage of Da Gama,the Turks could have gotten a copy of Majid’s book by this time, and made up the story about the Omani origins of ibn Majid.
T.A. CHUMOVSKY , in Tres Roteiros Desconhecidos de Ahmad Ibn-Madjid o Piloto Arabe de Vasco da Gama ( THREE RUTTERS (SAILING MANUALS) OF IBN MAJID THE ARAB PILOT OF VASCO DA GAMA ), published an important rutter (poem) that indicates that Majid had met da Gama and told him how to reach India. This rutter is the Sofala arjûza. In the Sofala arjûza Majid makes an admission of guilt and regret on telling da Gama how to reach India.
An Arab researcher Khoury claims that the arjûza written by Majid in the 1470’s, and therefore he could not have known about the Portuguese havoc in the Indian Ocean, and that the part about the Portugusese in the Indian Ocean was added later to the text. I fail to see any conflict in Majid writing the Sofala arjûza in 1470, and adding the part about the Portuguese later, because Majid did not die until around 1500 AD.
Subrahmayan , believes that the Sofala arjûza was probably not written by Majid, because of King Manuel’s letter about the Moor/Muslim pilot who spoke Italian. But as noted above this pilot was Gaspar da Gama, not Majid.
I believe that Da Gama learned about the West Indies and Indian Ocean trade from a West African named Ahmad ibn Majid, because of 1)the Treaty of Tordesillas, and 2) Da Gama being chosen to lead the expedition to India. The center of Portuguese naval power was along the West African coast.Vasco Da Gama had extensive experience sailing along the West African coast. As a result, da Gama could have met Majid anywhere along the coast of West Africa.
Da Gama had considerable navigation experience and was an effective diplomat and warrior. In 1478 Da Gama was stationed in Tangiers. Tangiers, Morocco is on the West coast of Africa.
In the 1480’s he may have served in Campaigns in North Africa. In addition, after the French took Portugese sailing vessels, da Gama fought the French at Setúbal and Algarve. As a result, da Gama could have met ibn Majid anywhere along the West African coast from Morocco to Lagos. This would have given da Gama enough time to have met Ahmad ibn Majid.
It is obvious that the Portuguese probably knew more about the New World than they let on. Their desire to draw the Tordesillas Line which gave Portugal Brazil is quite interesting because, Brazil was a strong center of African colonization since the expedition of Abubakari, and because there was frequent trade between West Africa and the Americas when Columbus reached America, Da Gama due to his relationship with Majid would have already known how valuable Brazil was to any future power in the Americas. Da Gama probably passed this on to the Portuguese King, who pushed for the Tordesillas line.
Secondly Da Gama was a junior naval officer, but he was given Command of the expedition to India. This was strange because they already had an experienced officer who had sailed around the South Africa.
Bartolome Dias was already a veteran navigator he had rounded the Cape of Good Hope in South Africa 10 years earlier. But he was not given the Command of the expedition to India, the Command of this expedition was given to Da Gama . We must assume that King Manuel I , felt Da Gama had nautical knowledge.that would help him to be successful in this expedition. Da Gama must of had some special knowledge about trade in the Indian Ocean region that would make him more successful than Dias. This information may have been what he learned about the trade from ibn Majid. .
In summary I believe that Da Gama learned about trade in the West indies and Indian Ocean from a navigator living in West African named Ahmad ibn Majid. Subrahmanyan claims Majid never met da Gama because of the myth Majid was the pilot taken to Lisbon by da Gama. But we know that this pilot was not Majid, it was Gaspar da Gama.
Khoury’s dating of the Sofala arjûza to 1470, and the possible addition of Majid’s regret later, of telling da Gama how to make it to India, does not mean that Majid never met da Gama. Since Majid lived until 1500, he could have made the additions to the Sofala arjûza himself, before he died.
Knowing Majid prior to 1497, would explain the Knowledge the Portuguese had about Brazil, and why Da Gama was given Command of the expedition to India. Vasco da Gama was given command of the India expedition due to the knowledge he obtained from Majid who lived somewhere along the West African coast.
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
You can not say that Bazan's references have not supported his statement about West African nautical sciences since no one has read T.A. CHUMOVSKY's Tres Roteiros Desconhecidos de Ahmad Ibn-Madjid o Piloto Arabe de Vasco da Gama. And even if I don't find it there, there is enough evidence found in my 12 points to make the necessary inferences supporting Bazan's statements.
Again, Bazan references T.A. Chumovsky only to claim that Chumovsky said that West Africans say that Ibn Majid invented the compass Not that he met Ibn Majid on the West Coast of Africa.
T.A. Chumovsky's book is a translation of three of Ibn Majid's shipping manuals "The Three Rutters" (Roteiros) and may have an introduction or commenatry written by him ( Chumovsky)
In this translation Ibn Majid supposedly in his own words laments having given navigational information to Vasco da Gama whom he supposedly met in East Africa
The Syrian historian Ibrahim Khoury and later Luis de Albuquerque discovered from internal evidence that while there should have been 701 verses in the manula there were as many as 807 and that the source manuscript had been added to by later authors.
So you can spend a few hours reading T.A. Chumovsky's translation and the best you are going to find is Ibn Majid, in a doctored document, supposedly claiming he met Majid in East Africa
not on the West coast of Africa where da Gama had landed for a week in the Bay of St. Helena on the Western Cape
As per da Gama's earlier background there is no record of what he did. It is not known about only that he was a knight of the Order of Santiago and defended the Portugese coast
So you can go to even a corrupted translation of Ibn Majid and you will not find any mention of da Gama prior to his first voyage to India
Your problem is that you want to see a source where Vasco da Gama says he met Ahmad ibn Majid on his way to India in 1497. This is not necessary because, da Gama’s voyage to India had been well planned and stopping on the coast of Africa was not part of the plan.
Bazan wrote that “ Arab geographical knowledge reached Vasco da Gama not only in written form , but also through his consultations with Ahmad b, Majid , whom he met on the west coast of Africa”.
Vasco da Gama was stationed in Tangiers in 1478. Tangiers is on the West Coast of Africa. The Sofala arjûza was written in 1470, this was 8 years before da Gama arrived in Tangiers. We know that Majid sailed to many places in his lifetime, and da Gama could have met the great navigator in Tangiers.
The fact that da Gama never mentions Majid can easily be explained . There was no reason for da Gama to talk about Majid, because Majid does not come into the history of da Gama's voyage to India until he is mentioned by Qutb as the Arab, who told the Portuguese how to get to India. Moreover, why would the Portuguese want to mention Majid when they wanted to make da Gama's voyage to India a great achievement of the Portuguese .
Khoury claims that Sofala arjûza was revised to include Majid’s lamentation, about telling Vasco da Gama how to sail to India. Although, Khoury believes the comments were written by an unknown author, Majid lived up to 1500 and could have revised the Sofala arjûza himself, before he died.
In summary, Vasco da Gama probably met Ahmad ibn Majid on the West Coast of Africa, in the 1470's while he was stationed in Tangiers. This would explain Majid's admission of regret for telling da Gama about navigation in the Indian Ocean, in a revised copy of the Sofala arjûza, written before his death. Vasco da Gama's station in Tangiers support Bazan's claim that Majid and da Gama met on the West Coast of Africa,
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