The revolution called for 'freedom, dignity and social justice'. Please come to Tahrir from 3-6pm Tuesday 8th March to demand that women are included in the rebuilding of society, in all political processes including amending the constitution, forming political parties, parliamentary and presidential elections.
Society will never prosper unless women enjoy legal, social and economic equality.
Bring a crowd, see you there!
Posted by citizen (Member # 1344) on :
No replies? I want at least a hundred ESers... so who's in? Men, women... all welcome Wear purple.. and bring a sign... Yalla!
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
I can't be there physically, but am with you in spirit! VIVA WOMEN OF EGYPT!!
Posted by Shanta Gdeeda (Member # 9889) on :
I don't think there's 100 ESers who live in Cairo Citizen! I might come but will decide in the morning - have to factor in 4 hours travelling to and fro as well as the actual march itself! (PS the relevance of that is that I have had a chest infection for a few days and been very sleepy).
Posted by citizen (Member # 1344) on :
OK, thanks for the support, hope you feel better soon. ESers can bring neighbours, friends, fellow microbus passengers, anyone...
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
Where is the facebook page? Everything now has a facebook page!
Posted by Shanta Gdeeda (Member # 9889) on :
This is about the one thing I haven't seen a FB page for!
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
I just saw it being tweetyed
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
Oh....in Arabic Posted by Ramses nemesis (Member # 4125) on :
quote:Originally posted by citizen: The revolution called for 'freedom, dignity and social justice'. Please come to Tahrir from 3-6pm Tuesday 8th March to demand that women are included in the rebuilding of society, in all political processes including amending the constitution, forming political parties, parliamentary and presidential elections.
Society will never prosper unless women enjoy legal, social and economic equality.
Bring a crowd, see you there!
I don't believe women are being excluded! and no, I'm not a male chauvinist or against women in any way, shape or form. In fact, at some point in the past I was almost a feminist. I still observe the IWD ever year (it's actually on 9th March). I should also add that I'm against any more rallies or demos, irrespective of the cause. I think we've had enough. It's time now to give the situation the time to settle down and things to morph. Peace!
Posted by citizen (Member # 1344) on :
Exclusion of women isn't exclusive to Egypt...
Posted by Shanta Gdeeda (Member # 9889) on :
Yes good video that. I didn't realise 100 women a year are killed by their current or former partner in the UK!
Posted by Tareq (Member # 18033) on :
Sad that some Egyptian women feel they have no role in everyday life, political life, society building..
You do not know that Egypt is My mother.!
Masr heya Ommi Posted by Shanta Gdeeda (Member # 9889) on :
This is from the UK's Reclaim the Night website:
"A recent survey by the young women’s magazine More in 2005 found that 95% of women don’t feel safe on the streets at night, and 65% don’t even feel safe during the day. 73% worry about being raped and almost half say they sometimes don’t want to go out because they fear for their own safety.
In every sphere of life we negotiate the threat or reality of rape, sexual assault and sexual harassment. We cannot claim equal citizenship while this threat restricts our lives as it does. We demand the right to use public space without fear. We demand this right as a civil liberty, we demand this as a human right."
One hundred years ago, more than a million people marched in streets across Europe on the first International Women’s Day. They called for an end to discrimination and for women to have the same rights as men to work, vote and shape the future of their countries.
One hundred years on, the reality is that women are still much more likely to be poor and illiterate. They earn only 10 percent of the world’s income but perform two thirds of the world’s work. They produce up to 80 percent of the food in developing countries but own only one percent of the land.
In many countries, they are still told what they can do, or even what they can wear. Women in Saudi Arabia, Chechnya and Iran face harassment if they don’t observe conservative religious dress codes. In contrast, Muslim women in Belgium, France and some parts of Spain may soon break the law there if they do observe them.
Women campaigning for change are often met with derision, abuse or worse. In places like Russia, the Philippines, Mexico and Nepal, leading activists have recently been murdered for speaking out. In China, Bangladesh, India, Zimbabwe and many other countries, they are routinely detained and tortured.
Yet the international community largely ignores these facts. Women's inequality is seen as regrettable but inevitable.
The dramatic events of the past two months have witnessed millions taking to the streets throughout the Middle East and North Africa to call for change.
Women stood beside men as they demanded comprehensive reform and an end to political repression. Both women and men have suffered under these repressive governments. But women have also had to cope with discriminatory laws and deeply entrenched gender inequality.
So it’s no wonder that women took to the streets, cheered loudly when former President Hosni Mubarak fell, and wanted to believe the promise of a new dawn in Egyptian politics. But it remains to be seen how much will really change for the women of Egypt.
Many governments--including many from the West--still only seem to support women’s rights when it’s convenient, and their rights are often used as bargaining chips in the struggle for control of the international agenda.
When negotiations with the Taliban seem like a good step, suddenly women's rights don't matter so much. When they need Pakistan as an ally, they accept the Pakistani government giving autonomy to regions of the country where women are utterly victimized by a parallel legal system. And alliances are made in Iraq with militia that in their spare time attack and kill women’s rights activists.
And so it goes in Egypt, where, as the country begins to look to its future, women are in danger of being sidelined again.
Incredibly, despite decades of discrimination and inequality, women are being denied a role in the creation of a new Egypt. They are being excluded by both the caretaker government and the international community. Most recently, a new national committee formed to write the new Egyptian constitution was composed only of men. This is not acceptable.
If the international community truly cared about women's rights in Egypt, they would be championing women's participation in every aspect of building new systems and institutions.
This behavior by the interim authorities and the international community betrays a sense of paternalism all too familiar to Egyptian women who have spent decades living under an oppressive government supported by supposedly rights-respecting states.
As existing governments scramble to change and new governments emerge, all must commit to respecting women's equality, both in law and in practice. But women will only have that equality if they actively engage in all the negotiations and decisions taking place during this time of transition.
For the promise of change in Egypt and elsewhere in the region---and the world--to materialize, women of diverse backgrounds and political persuasions must be at the table as full partners.
A lot has changed in the last 100 years, and yet many of the same problems remain. In many countries, government commitments to reforms have lagged. Discrimination still cuts deeply across societies, leaving a trail of inequality in its wake.
The call for equality, fairness and respect was at the heart of the first International Women’s Day. A century on, it still is.
What the Muslim Brotherhood thinks about working women.
(Interesting, btw., that they equate being a feminist with carrying a stick in your car, being violent/aggressive, and shouting at the bauwab! )
The Other Side of Feminism
The Illusion of Choice
Do women pursue a career out of choice or under pressure to conform? How does Islam view work in general and women’s work in particular?
In the previous 3 parts of this series, we have discussed some negative effects of feminism on the modern woman:
•How they were manipulated to serve commercial purposes at the expense of their wellbeing
• How they were made to feel guilty for being women and for needing men
•Replacing family with a career
•Pursuing casual sex rather than marital commitment and stability.
We have also explored the effects of those massive changes on women’s moral values, psychology and physiology, as well as the enormous social pressures that prevent women from reconnecting with who they really are under the pretext of “rights” and “empowerment”.
*-*-*-*-*
Women worldwide have learnt to pursue college education and a career as a top priority by default, putting their own natural and legitimate needs on hold relegating them to being less important. Women who do not follow this pattern are labeled “losers”, “drop outs” or “oppressed.
While knowledge is definitely a must, and useful work is crucial for a person’s sanity and sense of purpose, women must also have the right to decide for themselves how to design and spend their lives, to retain their individuality and sense of self. If humans are expected to fit into a rigid frame or else be regarded as failures, then the choice they think they have is simply an illusion.
In this context, women today are much weaker than ever because they are not free to choose between options. Instead, they are forced to suppress their natural inclinations, and disturb their natural balance in order to fit a standard frame imposed by others.
Women and Work-life balance
By modern psychological standards, a work-life balance involves taking control of one’s life to get a daily dose of both achievement and enjoyment within the four areas of life: work, family, friends, and self. This balance helps maintain psychological wellbeing necessary for leading a healthy and diverse life, without feeling like a clone or a machine, or letting one activity monopolize one’s time and effort, because this imbalance leads to feelings of exhaustion, emptiness and useless, which result in extreme stress and unhappiness.
In reality, the work-life balance is more of a dream than an applicable system to the majority of people. Everyone complains that after the daily struggle of a full time job, no time or effort is left for anything else. Women in particular suffer the most under these conditions, because their emotions are more intense, and their needs are at odds with this depleting routine. A new report from the University of Melbourne shows that women suffer more job-related depression than men. Job demands which turn them into “automatons” without recognition or reward result in deep clinical depression.
Work vs. Career
I often wonder:
· Why is work suddenly synonymous with “career”?
· Why only a full day schedule for at least 5 days a week qualifies as “work” nowadays?
· Why is anyone who doesn’t conform to this system seen as inferior, regardless of the added value of the creative or unusual kind of work they do?
· Why has pursuing a career become a goal in itself, not a means to a better life – as work should be?
Students,whether male or female, are expected to start pursuing a “career” as soon as they graduate, which often refers to a highly specialized job with a prestigious organization. Career path planning is a skill to be learnt in courses. One of life’s top goals and priorities for young people is to constantly progress in a career.
While this is wonderful for a young man whose main ambition is job success as a means to starting and supporting a family and having a stable life, it should be less of a priority for a young woman for whom fulfillment comes from exercising her femininity to the fullest and I don’t mean by putting on her “Amazon woman” armor, then camouflaging it with tight short skirts, high heels, heavy makeup and jogging after a bus at 7 in the morning to get to work on time; but by simply being a woman - a soft, poised lovely being with lots of inner beauty and oceans of faith and emotions. A “woman” who nurtures, loves, cares, and spreads warmth and love in the world; a wife and mother - and eventually a grandmother whose fondest memories are not of smashing presentations in the boardroom, but of first baby words in the nursery room.
It is time to admit that what a woman does to nurture others (young and old) is highly specialized work which no one else but her can do: Latest research shows that children of middle class working mothers cannot talk properly because of lack of interaction, and must be helped by other close relatives, such as grandparents, to be able to acquire the necessary language skills. Children as old as three years were found in the UK who could not speak one word because of lack of interaction! How does that compare to a salary raise or a job promotion?
Islam’s Work-Life Balance vs. the Protestant Work Ethic
Islam’s balanced and holistic approach to life is built on a solid core, advocating realistic priorities and goals, and considering natural man-woman roles and preferences. Planning for this life is considered shortterm by Islamic standards, as life in Islam is infinite in length; therefore, long term includes after-life as well. Amassing wealth or material goods is no indication of special privilege from God; to the contrary, it’s viewed as a serious test for the rich. This is at odds with the Protestant “work ethic” ruling the western world today, which views material success as a sign of God’s approval and a ticket to Heaven.
Work in Islam. as a basic concept of high value refers to one’s complete record of deeds in a lifetime, not just at the job. No Muslim man woman or child is exempt from doing good deeds and contributing to improving life for oneself and others. Women are guaranteed financial support by male family members so they are not pressured to provide for themselves, in return for performing their female roles within the family and society. They are also allowed to have a job as long as they do not compromise core values in the process. The concept of a career where work is the top priority in life at the expense of anything and everything else is non-existent.
People under Islam are not expected to be identical copies either; instead, individuality and creativity are recognized within a general framework of balanced laws. Islam also advocates consuming responsibly: extravagance and falling slave to haphazard consumerism for status or showing off is unacceptable.
Choice is a Responsibility and a Human Right in Islam
Humans are given that right by God in the Qur’an. Every adult man and woman is accountable and requiredto make choices. It is actually a punishable sin in Islam to willingly give up one’s right of choice, and turn into a mindless follower in order to evade responsibility, and blame the consequences on others. God forgives sins if repented and followed by good deeds, so there is no excuse for being passive.
Families should realize their massive responsibility in steering their daughters towards a proper future, but once a girl reaches puberty she is accountable for her own choices, and she cannot simply blame the results of her bad choices on others, including her family, society or the media.
She is required to get an education in order to make good choices in this life, in preparation for a thorough evaluation by God Himself in the next life. This is the lesson Muslim parents should teach above all else!
Do Career-Women Really Have a Choice?
This brings to mind the classic manipulative approach: would you like to do the dishes before or after dinner? While offering an illusionary choice, this approach actually imposes an action on you whether you like it or not. Actually, you could choose to do the dishes tomorrow, delegate the task to someone else, or simply refuse to do it altogether. Same free approach applies to making major life choices.
Most of my career-women friends do not need the money because they come from well off backgrounds; work to them is usually an escape from loneliness or from admitting they know no other way of spending their lives as females. They drive long hours in terrible traffic, eat junk because they have no time to eat at home, work long hours and travel a lot in often unsafe environments, dress uncomfortably or un-Islamically to “impress”, wear make up to mask their fatigue, go to an expensive gym right after work -instead of home to rest- feeling guilty about their unhealthy life styles and their “ugly” bodies. They cry themselves to sleep out of loneliness, and indulge in partying or expensive shopping on weekends to justify their depressing lives. They almost boast of their inability to cook, do housework, or finding time to read, and they are not impressed by the men who propose marriage to them.
Who benefits from destroying so many beautiful young women in the ruthless corporate grind? Is anyone aware of the mass devastation of female identity? What are women themselves doing –other than complying- to regain their birthrights?
------------------------------
Real Experience From a Female Reader
Here is what a female reader wrote to me in reaction to these articles. She’s in her early 30’s and holds a top position in a multinational organization in Cairo:
“Yes, there is a deliberate change that is affecting all of us and yes, women’s attitude affects the treatment they receive from men. I don’t want to become a man, I love being a woman, but being a woman is a real weight on my shoulders in our society, where ethics and manners are expressed in “appearances” rather than in true practices.
“Being a woman doesn’t seem to be enough to get through the daily battle with men who are waiting to attack at work, on the street or in personal life. I believe women were forced to change their behaviors and personalities (sometimes their looks as well) to be able to compete and cope. Becoming a radical feminist might have been a deliberate choice for some women, but it wasn’t an option for the rest of us. We had no choice but to change to defend ourselves! We can’t win accepting the tradition female roles or characteristics.
“I have changed drastically since my father passed away, and unfortunately nothing worked except being so aggressive and even violent. I have an iron stick now in my car to protect myself, I raise my voice at my colleagues at work and shout at our doorman so they’d respect me and do their work.
“Am I becoming really harsh and aggressive? Yes! Unfortunately, I am learning many negative skills from men, but do you think I chose this? I hope this shows why “feminism” is the only option!”
This insightful comment is testimony to the deliberate and systematic change of our individual and social values to serve corporate interests, regardless of the wellbeing of women. Note the reader’s use of the words “battle, attack, defend, aggressive, violent” in describing her relationship with society, work, and men. Obviously, our society has been changed so much that the Islamic ideal of unconditional male protection for every woman has become ridiculous and naïve. Muslim women should not be left to feel so vulnerable that they have to willingly change into mutant men to survive. It is destructive to compromise our values to match a system built on totally different principles to serve entirely different purposes. Women do not have to accept such damaging conditions, they must start exploring the options, and stand up for their true rights to be “real women”.
But what should a woman do with a good education? How could she work without letting career replace her feminine priorities? And how are men responding to these drastic social changes? These and more are themes to explore in the next articles.
No doubt this was about to happen. How many of them will get smacked today upon returning home??? Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
This should go down as a very black day for democracy in Egypt!
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote: Men are men, women are women.
Brilliant insight. Posted by Tareq (Member # 18033) on :
وشهد الميدان اشتباكات بين القائمات على المسيرة والمعتصمين الذين رفضوا المطالب التى ترفعها الناشطات وظلوا يهتفون "بره بره"، كما تبادلوا فيما بينهم اتهام الناشطات بأنهن أجانب، ولسن مصريات، واشتبكت إحدى السيدات مع أحد المصورين، مما أدى إلى نشوب تشابك بالأيدى وتعثر حركة المرور. ومن المنتظر أن يقام حفل مساء اليوم لتكريم شهيدات الثورة المصرية
the protesters ( the rest of revolutionaries) in The midan clashed with the pro women rights ( aka western feminism) . They said to them "out out" and they accused them of being foreigners and non Egyptian..
My comment on this:
Foreigner culture of women rights will not work here in Egypt Because of Lots of cultural differences.
Egypt is not a western country. I do not think It will ever be.
Posted by Shanta Gdeeda (Member # 9889) on :
Well I just got back from there.
I travelled there on microbus + metro and back again on metro and minibus (that's the small bus bigger than a microbus).
Things were a little bit confusing with some women on the central area with the tents and others outside Tahrir.
Anyway, I got there about 2pm and spent a couple of hours mooching about talking to people before finally managing to meet up with Citizen for a while!
There seemed to be a couple of demonstrations today - one was the women's thing and the other I didn't catch but might also have been that - let's just say things were a bit confusing!! (Btw I'm not talking about the men's demo - there was another one with mixed men and women marching along the road for about 10 minutes).
I did talk with some of those guys who were against the women's day. At first I had a joke over them saying I should go home and cook for my husband and I said if I did he would die. But their main point (which they explained to me anyway) was that at the moment they are demonstrating for One Egypt and the International Womens' Day was divisive because (1)It was not Egyptian and (2) It was dividing between men and women. Well it's a point of view and one that has been expressed by others.
Anyway, there were also plenty of men in support of it giving out 'aims of the women's day' leaflets and stickers advertising Harassmap.
Everyone was really nice and a few people just came up and said "Thank You" (for being a tourist), a few asked me what I thought about it (the revolution generally), I got my hands painted in Egyptian flags and my hands were photoed by quite a few people
There were a number of banners and areas dedicated to the martyrs, and I was touched by a row of quite elderly women all dressed in black abayas but with Egyptian flags and posters painted on them who seemed to be related to the martyrs.
There were lots of groups having open discussion eg two women - one in niqab and one uncovered having a heated debate with men listening intently, another group obviously MB - involved in heated debates, and other groups discussing and arguing other points. (Obviously my Arabic isn't good enough to understand debates in full flow let alone I couldn't hear it clearly enough) but from my point of view seeing something not unalike 'speakers corner' in Hyde Park, London on a Sunday was encouraging).
If you want to go up onto the central bit where the tents are, then you have to show ID to the volunteers (my UK provisional driving licence does the trick as I don't like carrying my passport about).
I also noted that volunteers were doing the traffic cop duties.
There are zillions of flags, t-shirts, badges available all round the area.
I enjoyed it and glad I went up - first time I've been up there since the revolution!
In other related news:
(1) In the metro carriages I used today (women's ones), I noted that the metro station known as Mubarak had had its Arabic name scratched out and replaced with الشهداء(martyrs)
(2) One version of the Lara Logan incident mentions bus stops in Tahrir - I noted two today - both near the Arab League building, one on the Mogamma side of the road and one on the same side of the road near one of the entrances to the metro. If I were going to give some credence to that version of events, then the one near the metro is the one I would say it could have most easily occurred at.
Posted by Shanta Gdeeda (Member # 9889) on :
PS While I was there, one of the women I was talking to got a text from a friend of hers saying she had just seen on the news that cars were being burned outside the mogamma. let's just say that we were standing looking at the mogamma and there weren't any cars on fire. So unless there were a couple at the back of the building burning with no smoke, then ... take the news with a pinch of salt.
PPS Don't focus on the men who were against it, focus on the many there who were FOR it! I mean we all see how idiots opposed the ordination of women priests in the UK for years and now oppose the ordination of women bishops. Unreconstructed neanderthal males are not restricted to Egypt by a long long chalk.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
How interesting that you saw things entirely different than all these tweetiers Shanta. I kept checking the news to see if their was any coverage on it, and all they were showing was the Demo with the Copts.
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tareq: Foreigner culture of women rights
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tareq: وشهد الميدان اشتباكات بين القائمات على المسيرة والمعتصمين الذين رفضوا المطالب التى ترفعها الناشطات وظلوا يهتفون "بره بره"، كما تبادلوا فيما بينهم اتهام الناشطات بأنهن أجانب، ولسن مصريات، واشتبكت إحدى السيدات مع أحد المصورين، مما أدى إلى نشوب تشابك بالأيدى وتعثر حركة المرور. ومن المنتظر أن يقام حفل مساء اليوم لتكريم شهيدات الثورة المصرية
the protesters ( the rest of revolutionaries) in The midan clashed with the pro women rights ( aka western feminism) . They said to them "out out" and they accused them of being foreigners and non Egyptian..
My comment on this:
Foreigner culture of women rights will not work here in Egypt Because of Lots of cultural differences.
Egypt is not a western country. I do not think It will ever be.
Tareq, please define democracy for us.
Posted by Shanta Gdeeda (Member # 9889) on :
I was just me and I wasn't everywhere and I'm a foreigner so I am willing to accept that my experience is not necessarily the same as that of others present today. However, that is how I felt it to be.
In the UK, we are used to people holding different opinions and expressing them. At any demonstration, you will ALWAYS get a counter demonstration from those opposed to your views and sometimes these end up in a ruckus. This is completely normal in a functioning democracy.
This is something that maybe Egyptians will have to get used to and accept - and I say that without knowing the history of Egyptian demonstrations - it doesn't necessarily mean 'the end of life as we know it'.
We also know that in all societies, there are a hard-core of unreconstructed males who have some bizarre view that all women like cooking and sewing (I don't) and all men are better at maths than all women (crap - I am a zillion times better at maths than almost any man on this planet). I even had an argument along these lines on the London metro one night. And everything these two men said I trumped. Eventually they were reduced to saying "men have bigger feet"... oh do they indeed I responded waving my size 10s (American size 12s) at them.... at which point they went into a sulk and shut up.
Posted by Shanta Gdeeda (Member # 9889) on :
And if men want women to live in some 1000 year old state of being - then they should also do the same and give up:
mobile phones, plasma screen tvs, the internet, cars, football matches, computers, radios, electricity in general, clean water direct from a tap, most medicines and medical treatments.
Posted by Shanta Gdeeda (Member # 9889) on :
I hope Citizen posts up her impressions because she would have also had her own experiences different to mine!
@Laura - you may have noted I have an insatiable desire to go see things for myself instead of relying on other people's perspectives Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shanta Gdeeda:
@Laura - you may have noted I have an insatiable desire to go see things for myself instead of relying on other people's perspectives [/QB]
I like and respect that Shanta Posted by Tareq (Member # 18033) on :
Yep, May be My situation is not clear
I personally believe women's rights that is needed in Egypt should never come from western countries because the culture is not the same
I am with a change to more freedom and rights for women but It should not come from outside ideas or ways. and I am generally speaking here.
And yes I expect Dalia to object and shanta to not understand and Laura to wonder and others to disagree. lol
Posted by Tareq (Member # 18033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: that they equate being a feminist with carrying a stick in your car, being violent/aggressive, and shouting at the bauwab!
Most of Egyptian (women before men) think this way not only the MB. and The culture plays a great role here.
and Since you Dalia told me one day here to not Judge a western by a middle eastern/ egyptian culture, I tell you to do the same here.
and For you information, I always have a neutral point of view.
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
Shanta, thanks for your report. Interesting. Wish I could have come along.
I heard something about a demonstration by Christians today, maybe that's what you observed?
quote:Originally posted by Tareq:
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: that they equate being a feminist with carrying a stick in your car, being violent/aggressive, and shouting at the bauwab!
Most of Egyptian (women before men) think this way not only the MB.
Well, that just shows that they have a very distorted idea of what feminism means. Maybe they should ask one instead of guessing and relying on what others say about them.
If someone who is not Muslim, has never in his life spoken to a Muslim had some weird preconceptions about what they think and do, you would tell him that he should get his information from first hand sources instead of relying on hearsay or media. Same thing.
quote:Originally posted by Tareq: I personally believe women's rights that is needed in Egypt should never come from western countries
Oh, definitely. But you are obviously under the misconception that Egyptian women demanding their human rights is something "coming from Western countries".
Hang on … haven't we just heard the same argument just a few weeks ago? Egyptians are not protesting because they are fed up with Mubarak and fed up with getting their human rights violated. Oh no, they've been manipulated into doing it by foreign forces. Seems it's the standard reply whenever anyone challenges the long-established status quo and balance of power.
quote:Originally posted by Tareq:
I always have a neutral point of view.
Posted by Tareq (Member # 18033) on :
Women's rights are very much deeper. removing mubarak or keeping mubarak can't be compared in any way.
Don't show your teeth in this green face.
Posted by Tareq (Member # 18033) on :
I am not under the misconception that Egyptian women demanding their human rights is something "coming from Western countries
What Egyptian women are you talking about? Cairo Residents? or upper egyptian women? or what egyptian women?
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
I know where you are coming from Tareq, I have many family members who would agree with you completely. Things take time, and hopefully as the months pass, and a sort of "normality" returns to everyday life here, this is one important issue that will be fully addressed.
Posted by adelly (Member # 14574) on :
I am a muslim and married to an egyptian, but tareq democracy means equal voice for everyone regardless of their sex, social class or religion.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Re: Democracy/Women's rights
Democracy is solidified with laws and institutions. Egypt is still in a transition. We have yet to witness establishment of democratic institutions and democratic laws. It will take time and Cairene women will feel it first before upper Egypt women. Before women get their true rights the following most occur to protect such rights on a national level:
1. New Constitution (equality laws, freedom of speech, affirmative action laws, etc)
2. Elected government (elected president, elected parliament, elected governors, etc)
3. Impartial Judiciary
Egyptian women will have a voice and they will be very powerful. Just think of the voting power they will have. Wait and see.
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
I dislike laws, institutions and to some extent democracy. I just don't like the way people enslave themselves to laws and institutions and forget that these things are there to serve the people and should always be subject to change. People talk about the constitution as if it is divine. And right now another concern I have is the army and the unreasonable respect and acceptance people have for it. I wondered during the revolution and continue to wonder at the lack of leadership in Egyptian communities. To this day I do not see community thinkers/leaders organizing their communities to manage their own affairs and supervise the various levels of government first hand. Generally speaking whenever I say democracy I mean Freedom, Justice and Civic Duty. We should not need laws to grant or recognize women as equal we need to understand it as fact and act it.
Posted by Shanta Gdeeda (Member # 9889) on :
Interestingly, this woman's feelings were similar to mine:
Obviously, whatever kicked off happened after we left.
In a way it is a pity that this day (internationally decided and repeated annually) fell in the middle of the revolution. Was it right to go ahead with it now or not here in Egypt, all things considered? People will have their own views on the subject.
Posted by citizen (Member # 1344) on :
It did get ugly after you left, Shanta. Each of us got involved in very heated debates with groups of young men and women. Some of them were curious and responsive but others just dismissive and abusive. I didn't actually get a chance to move from the corner I was standing on. The trouble started in the centre where a group of men started yelling 'Barra, barra (out, out), go home and do the washing' and other such slogans. They pushed into the crowd and the supportive men tried to push them back. Some women caught got in the middle and groped. It happened around 5-5.15pm I think. We stayed on till 6 as arranged, we weren't going to be deprived of our right to be in a public space, but the whole atmosphere had turned sour and we didn't know which of the men milling around were for or against.
Anyway, we learnt a lot. A whole lot of re-education needs to start now. We know the kind of objections we're going to face, so we can prepare ourselves next time. And more importantly, we need to reach the women who may not be able to move far from their homes.
Honestly equality is not practical in a Muslim-dominated society. Don't even try to imagine that the new Egypt could look like any of the developed Western societies. This is truly wishful thinking.
Yes women will be able to gain overall more rights in time and some will achieve to work in higher positions (and in this regard Egypt already achieved some good progress compared to other Muslim nations) but in the end of the day its a culture in which the men dominate and rule.
And a new government will not change this kind of thinking through laws. It can support equality but it has to come from the people themselves - in this case the men. Are they ready for a change like that? Sadly no; not at all.
You know when Egyptian men will be ready to accept women as equal counterparts - it's when the widespread sexual harassment will stop. There is absolutely no respect shown to women by too many men. It's painful to watch, it's even more painful to be on the receiving end.
Posted by citizen (Member # 1344) on :
Tiger Lily, you are so cynical and pessimistic, we may as well all go commit suicide if we believe Egyptians, all of them, can't every enjoy freedom, democracy, equality and justice in their lives. What's to live for otherwise?
Just for everyone's information, there is an amazing flourishing right now of informal political discussion groups, everyone is SO enthused and excited and hopeful. This has never happened in anyone's living memory. Everyone wants to understand, participate, help. It's very exciiting really, I just hope all this energy will bear fruit.
Posted by Chef Mick (Member # 11209) on :
quote:Originally posted by citizen: Tiger Lily, you are so cynical and pessimistic, we may as well all go commit suicide if we believe Egyptians, all of them, can't every enjoy freedom, democracy, equality and justice in their lives. What's to live for otherwise?
Just for everyone's information, there is an amazing flourishing right now of informal political discussion groups, everyone is SO enthused and excited and hopeful. This has never happened in anyone's living memory. Everyone wants to understand, participate, help. It's very exciiting really, I just hope all this energy will bear fruit.
exciting and wonderful Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tareq: Sad that some Egyptian women feel they have no role in everyday life, political life, society building..
You do not know that Egypt is My mother.!
Masr heya Ommi
Egyptian women like women of the world have a role, whatever role they can manage when men continue to obstruct their options and won't view them as equals.
Women are just as human as you are, just not as entitled as you are.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr: Honestly equality is not practical in a Muslim-dominated society. Don't even try to imagine that the new Egypt could look like any of the developed Western societies. This is truly wishful thinking.
Yes women will be able to gain overall more rights in time and some will achieve to work in higher positions (and in this regard Egypt already achieved some good progress compared to other Muslim nations) but in the end of the day its a culture in which the men dominate and rule.
And a new government will not change this kind of thinking through laws. It can support equality but it has to come from the people themselves - in this case the men. Are they ready for a change like that? Sadly no; not at all.
You know when Egyptian men will be ready to accept women as equal counterparts - it's when the widespread sexual harassment will stop. There is absolutely no respect shown to women by too many men. It's painful to watch, it's even more painful to be on the receiving end.
honestly equality wasn't practical in German society over 60 years ago. Which is why you arseholes gassed several million people. Posted by Tareq (Member # 18033) on :
quote:Originally posted by citizen: Tiger Lily, you are so cynical and pessimistic, we may as well all go commit suicide if we believe Egyptians, all of them, can't every enjoy freedom, democracy, equality and justice in their lives. What's to live for otherwise?
Citizen I have a couple of Questions for you if you don't mind.
What is your industry or specilaity? and what countries have you travelled to?
of my experience as an Egyptian, I worked in Egypt for several institutes and I find women progress fantastically.
I also visited The country and I see women have their own parties every where and they does not find themselves unequal. They work together with men seriously and their success is proven to any one.
Do you have roots in upper egypt or fellah towns? How about you go to the country and see how women have their own parties?
Posted by Tareq (Member # 18033) on :
We have kind of egyptian dignity here in egypt that we find it a shame for a woman to work as a taxi driver. in Europe the european say why not women working as taxi drivers.
you will say why not a woman to work as a taxi driver? Culturally It is not acceptable here in egypt.
The same thing goes when we find women in the street protesting for their rights, Lots of people find it insulting to the dignity of Egyptian pride.people understands it as if women are deprived. It is considered here insulting.
I am not sure if you can understand my point.
The Egyptian culture here is a mixture of lots of stuff.
Egyptian Muslim or christian ( men or women) has lots of different beliefs / habits compared to european / western counterparts.
Posted by Tareq (Member # 18033) on :
by the way, this white haired old woman who calls for feminism and women rights is considered by 99.9 % of egyptian to be mad and idiot.
You know of course who she is. her name is Nawal
on The opposite, The west see her as a heroine and give her prizes.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
Women suffer assault and derision at Tahrir march
A million woman march held on Tuesday in honor of International Women’s Day turned ugly when violent altercations erupted between several opposing camps. The amount of women attending the demonstration held in Tahrir Square was far less than the targeted million--hovering somewhere between the 200-400 range--but was still large enough to provoke the seemingly majority male crowd.
Women lined the sidewalks directly across from the square, holding up signs and banners demanding equality and a say in the ongoing constitutional amendments. A number of men seemed to misinterpret these demands, however, as a call for a female president, and proceeded to spread the message through the crowds, with the apparent intention of inciting anger--a strategy that, unfortunately, seemed to work.
Initially, detractors responded to the female-led protest with mockery and sarcastic comments.
“A man couldn’t rule this country; they want to hand it over to a woman?” an older man asked Al-Masry Al-Youm with genuine bewilderment.
“Let’s get out of here, I have to go breast-feed my baby,” one young man was heard laughing to his friend.
“Yeah, and I still have a load of laundry to take care of,” his friend replied.
Tensions, however, rapidly increased when both sides began hurling accusations at each other. “You’re all foreign agents,” the men began chanting, with the women responding, “you are not the youth of the revolution.”
A smaller group provided more level-headed chants but their calls for “patience, understanding, and open dialogue” were lost in the ruckus.
“Look at all those foreigners,” one man, gesturing to the line of women, complained to Al-Masry Al-Youm. “They’re clearly not from here,” he said in reference to the group that seemed mostly composed of Egyptians, albeit with a fair number of foreigner-looking protesters dotting the front-lines.
The man’s objections were later expanded into an angry chorus of “Leave! Leave!”--chanted by the protesters as they shuffled closer to the increasingly anxious women.
Twice Al-Masry Al-Youm spotted the same three young men try to push through the crowd and strike the women. The aggressors were held back but, despite the majority’s objections, the three young men kept trying to reach the women, while encouraging others to join.
“It saddens me that these are the people who fought for this country,” said demonstrator Janan Omar, 25, minutes before an angered man tried to rip her sign out of her hands. “If they don’t agree with us, then they should just leave us alone. There’s no need for this reaction.”
Through her work in educational development, Omar realizes the value a stronger female voice might bring to the upcoming reformations.
“Statistically, women tend to vote for more social and welfare projects, and raises in educational funding,” she said, while asserting Egypt could greatly benefit from such programs. “I can’t believe they’re willing to make such a strong stand against us, based on nothing but misguided cultural beliefs."
Activist Fardous el-Bahnassy also claimed to feel an intense sadness at the resentment the women’s demonstration spurred.
“It’s tragic to realize that the undermining and oppressive methods that defined the previous regime have entrenched themselves in the personality of so many Egyptians," she said. "There’s no desire to listen or empathize, just to attack and silence.”
Meanwhile, the men participating in the women’s movement were the subject of intense ridicule by the opposing groups who chanted, “shame on you,” and “you are not men,” among several other derogatory remarks. When admonished for holding their rally at such a delicate time, one male member of the women’s movement tried to explain to the crowds that they were observing an international event, the date of which was scheduled independent of the Egyptian revolution.
This explanation, however, was quickly and aggressively dismissed by its opponents. A subgroup of men tried to make their own position heard, namely, that they were against the women’s demands, but opposed to the idea of attacking them.
“Those who love Egypt should protect it, not destroy it,” they argued. They were, for all intents and purposes, completely ignored.
The situation escalated when a group of men suddenly pushed through the lines formed by the female protesters, forcing them to retreat. The chants of “leave!” only intensified, and several men were seen cheering. Two women were attacked in front of Al-Masry Al-Youm--one of them punched in the face--and, under the protection of a small group of men, managed to cross the street to a more quiet location.
Minutes later, however, the crowd of incensed men rushed towards them, prompting people to run in all directions. As people fled the scene, members of the armed forces were seen rushing in, grabbing one young man and asking him what the problem was.
“They’re beating up the women,” the man replied.
Scattered groups gathered at the more peaceful end of the street, and many young girls were seen breaking down in tears and struggling to collect themselves. Many of them claimed to have been repeatedly groped, while others reported their purses had been snatched. Several men roamed between the groups, trying to reassure the women and assist them in any possible way.
Several of the women, understandably shaken, remained skeptical of the men. As one young woman explained, the demonstration was chaotic to the extent that “it was hard to tell what was going on.”
“You couldn’t tell which guys were trying to help you, and which were trying to grope you, until it turned into a stampede,” the girl explained, while trying to console her friend, shaking and in tears.
quote:Originally posted by metinoot: honestly equality wasn't practical in German society over 60 years ago.
Exactly. The arguments against equal rights, the stupid derogatory remarks, the belief that what you can do in life depends on gender more than personality – all the issues Egyptian women are facing are nothing new at all. It's been the same in Europe and in the States not too long ago.
Justice and equality are extremely important values that can't be taken away from human beings forever, people will continue to fight for them, and changes will occur. Maybe not today and not tomorrow, but at some point for sure.
For those that say women demanding their rights is something foreign to Egyptian culture – a feminist movement has existed in Egypt for a long time.
Tahani al-Gebali, Egypt’s first female judge and vice president of the Supreme Constitutional Court - her comments on the International Women's Day and women's rights:
" Al-Masry: How would you assess the status of women’s rights during Mubarak’s 30-year rule?
Al-Gebali: It is beyond doubt that Egyptian women struggled over the course of history to gain their rights. This struggle began in the 1920s. A lot was achieved especially after the 1952 revolution. That revolution changed social and economic realities. Eventually, the idea of co-education gained momentum and families developed ambitions to send their daughters to school and the job market. Then, in 1956, women acquired political rights.
Over the last 30 years, women’s rights were codified in laws and in the constitution, but were not enjoined in reality. This was the main challenge facing women during the last 30 years.
Since the early 1970s, there has been a wave of cultural regression and eventually many of women’s rights were shaken. Public opinion changed. People began to believe that women should not engage in politics and should not work and should dedicate their efforts to their families. Religious intransigence contributed to those ideas; religion was used to question women’s right to work and claim that their engagement in the job market contradicts with their main role as a mothers. Also, economic problems and job scarcity contributed to keeping women away from the job market. The society preferred that men should have priority for limited job opportunities. This cultural environment posed many challenges to women’s right as full citizens. Additionally, women were denied rights that they were still struggling to acquire; For example, their right to hold certain positions like judges was challenged. Women’s abilities to hold senior positions and to be part of sovereign state institutions were questioned. The main challenge that women faced over the last 30 years was how to activate rights that are legally codified in reality.
Al-Masry: Earlier this week, women held a march to celebrate International Women’s Day but they were mocked and harassed. What is your assessment of that?
Al-Gebali: Some political and regressive forces want to shake women’s rights that have already been achieved. These forces are hostile to women’s rights by definition. They felt threatened when they got wind of efforts to celebrate that day. This symbolic celebration was eventually besieged in order to prevent women from bringing their rights into the limelight at this revolutionary juncture. There are forces that want to cause a setback in this realm. Hence, we start hearing arguments such as: “Is this time for such demands? Do you want to cause more divisions?”
Any group has the right to speak out loud about its own rights and make sure there is a national consensus over these rights. And it is not only women who are doing that--I saw protests by disabled people. The same is happening with religious minorities. Their rights came to the fore again in the wake of the recent sedition that is being imposed on us. Also, employees and workers are raising particular demands. Nobody can oppress voices that claim their rights. Each group should be allowed to express its grievances. This is part of democracy. Whoever refuses to listen to someone else, for the simple reason that he holds a different viewpoint, is violating democratic principles.
Al-Masry: Some people say it is inappropriate for each group to hold marches or protests to promote its own demands at this critical moment. Some people are accusing these groups of thwarting the revolution.
Al-Gebali: I do not agree with this opinion. These groups were part of the revolution and now as we are about to draw a map for Egypt’s future, they are grabbing people’s attention to their rights and issues. What is wrong with that? Also, there are rights that have to be instated immediately, including the right for a minimum wage. There is a final court verdict regarding this and the verdict is binding and must be respected. Why is the enforcement of this verdict being delayed? In the meantime, a wage ceiling should be enforced. Such a ceiling will leave us with a surplus of cash that we can use to finance minimum wages. In this case, nobody can claim that we are overloading the budget. If we make both decisions concurrently, things will be balanced.
Al-Masry: How could women benefit from this new revolutionary juncture?
Al-Gebali: I believe women should benefit from the revolutionary mode by stressing the rights that they have already gained and make sure there is no setback in this realm. Most of women’s rights are achieved legally and constitutionally. Yet, we should thwart attempts that aim at hindering the activation of these rights on the ground. "
quote:Originally posted by citizen: Tiger Lily, you are so cynical and pessimistic, we may as well all go commit suicide if we believe Egyptians, all of them, can't every enjoy freedom, democracy, equality and justice in their lives. What's to live for otherwise?
Citizen I have a couple of Questions for you if you don't mind.
What is your industry or specilaity? and what countries have you travelled to?
of my experience as an Egyptian, I worked in Egypt for several institutes and I find women progress fantastically.
I also visited The country and I see women have their own parties every where and they does not find themselves unequal. They work together with men seriously and their success is proven to any one.
Do you have roots in upper egypt or fellah towns? How about you go to the country and see how women have their own parties?
Tareq, if you don't mind I won't answer any personal questions as I don't think they are relevant. I just want to say that since the revolution a lot of citizens' groups have sprung up that are very excited about what's happening now and the opportunities for participation. Just imagine, nobody alive has ever been able to gather, debate and participate in their own fate or the fate of their country before. It's an amazing moment and I urge you to grab the opportunity. If you are in Egypt, there are lectures and discussions every evening (in Cairo at least). I've been to talks with Tahany El Gebaly and Amr Hamzawy and a group looking to form a political party and a group of like-minded women. We are building a new society from scratch. How often do you get that opportunity. OK, it may not work out but with so much zeal it has to. I really believe it.
Regarding your questions about women, you are right women do progress and do succeed and do achieve... if they are given the opportunity. But 50% are illiterate, and another large percentage have a poor education. In Egypt women are almost solely responsible for families, the building blocks of a healthy, prosperous society, so even if... even if you don't believe in personal freedom for women (freedom of life choices, movement etc.) it is in the interests of any SOCIETY that the women enjoy equal rights and participation. The whole society progresses, the GDP improves, the UN has stats to prove this. In the 1980s development organizations started targeting women because it was the only way to make sure development reached families. This is all in the literature, I'm not making it up!
Anyway, back to Egypt, upper class educated women have the freedom, these are the ones you meet and work with. The vast majority are living in slums or Upper Egypt where they struggle to support their families under discriminatory laws and family repression.
I could write a thesis on this, but will stop there. The march in Tahrir was a symbolic start - on International Women's Day - to a long process of raising awareness, education and exposing the truth of women's lives, always hidden in previous years by government defensiveness about Masr Umm El Dunya.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
This is my personal opinion.
I’m sure some of you heard “women are their own worst enemies”, the context is political. I don’t think radicalism is beneficial whatsoever, especially Egyptian women who in one breath scream women rights and in the next echo religious blasphemy. This approach alienates the majority of Egyptian women, such egos need to abate, and focus more on what matters most - Egyptian women betterment. Not headlines, not BS, and most of all not for the sake of western appeasement.
I also have contempt for superficial feminists, or ones who uphold the status quo, and are easily manipulated or intimidated. Somewhere along the middle is what Egypt is lacking, or Egyptian feminists that are able to reach across to most Egyptian women and not just the westernized Egyptian women.
Basically Egyptian women can not be “their own worst enemy”, tolerance and understanding must be part of their principle. Take the feminist who so-called works for Egyptian women’s rights, yet takes every opportunity to diss her brethren’s attire or religion, those are sensitive issues that only alienate Egyptian women.
Egypt could do without feminist that play to western media and politicians. What Egypt needs are Egyptian women who are level headed and those that are able to play the game. Smart women who can not only march, but also change the mindset of the Egyptian household. Hopefully a women party will be formed, and yes I did say that, a women party, where they will side with a coalition that will be in their own best self interest.
Something new, because the old is BS. I have faith.
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
Tahrir for whom?
On March 8th, International Women’s Day, I went to Tahrir to march for freedom, I went because unless the minorities in Egypt have real freedom, and unless our human rights are written into the constitution, Egypt will never be free. I want women in Egypt to have respect, equal rights with men, representation in government and the right to run for president.
We arrived in Tahrir around 5pm. Traffic was still moving around the midan but it was slow. Initially we did not see any women or women protests. We walked into the central tent area and there were people milling around, but no one protesting. Finally we saw a small group of women holding signs surrounded by a large group of men. We pushed our way to the center of the group, stood next to the other women and held up our sign “I am woman, I am Egypt.” Right next to us was a large loud group of angry men yelling chants against the women protesters. At one point a sheikh was being held up and leading the chants. They told us to get out, they told us we were bitches and maids and rebellious children, they lifted and shook their shoes at us. The women stayed silent and tried to hold their signs steady as they were being pushed around, they hardly even chanted. It was better to be silent, we didn’t want to provoke more anger and aggression then was already being hurled at us.
There were men protesting with us, but they were worried for our safety, some told us to leave, and then they themselves left. Other men came and engaged us in intense debates. They didn’t know why we were protesting. They didn’t know that today was International Women’s Day. They said “You have freedom in Egypt, what more do you want?” I told them “We want respect and we want a voice.” One of our demands was to have the right to run for president, one man told my sister that Arab women could never be president because they were too emotional. She responded by asking him which demonstration was currently more emotional, loud and out of control, the women’s protest or the anti-women’s protest? He shook his head, “No no, women are more emotional on the inside.” Then he walked away. Another man started to speak of the Quran to us. My sister held up her cross. I am Christian, what does the Quran have to say about my rights? He also walked away. There were also women who were yelling at us. One lady told us she had never been harassed while walking in the street. We responded by asking her if she had ever walked in the street. Another women was screaming and pushing us, grabbing our signs trying to rip them from us and destroy them.
The women protestors began to leave. We heard reports on twitter that women were being molested. The number dwindled to under ten, we tried to stick together but we were being pushed and jostled on every side by increasingly angry men. Despite the decent men who wanted to engage us in discussion there were others who would get in our faces and scream insults at us, push us and grab at our signs trying to tear them. Some of the men seemed to be completely out of control, now that I think about it I wonder if they were on drugs. It is possible that some of those men were thugs, but the majority of men seemed to be normal passerbys; some of them returning from work and sincerely confused as to why we were protesting.
When it became impossible to move or even stand comfortably because we were being pressed in on all sides my sister and I and another girl would grab each other’s hands and try to get to an area where we could breathe. The men would follow us, the decent men wanting to discuss as well as the angry ones. After moving several times and each time being subsequently surrounded and again squeezed on all sides we decided to leave to regroup. We put up our hands and told the men that we were taking a break and would not talk to them. Still we had to move fast and almost run to get away from them.
My sister and I are half Egyptian. We look very foreign with fair hair and light eyes. This added another disturbing dynamic to the demonstration. Men were yelling “foreigners! foreigners!” They were calling us jews and Israelis. There was a strong xenophobic undercurrent, the Egyptian Muslim tried to defend us telling the men around us that we were Egyptian, but it was hopeless.
Finally we realized that it was hopeless and the situation was getting beyond our control and dangerous. We decided to leave and come back on Friday and next Tuesday, which is Egyptian Women’s Day, with larger numbers, more support and better organization. They called the Egyptian veiled women jews as well. They yelled “Look! Look! You have foreigners standing around you!”
This incident made me wonder. Who was Jan. 25th for? What did our martyrs die for? Didn’t they die for “Tahrir,” liberation for all? The symbol of oppression is gone, but the oppression in our society is deeply rooted. Egypt’s road to freedom will be a long one.
Was actually hoping for some replies to my post. Agreement, disagreement, whatever.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I asked my chap what he thought of the march that day. He thought about it for a second and said if I asked him to go on it, he didn't think he'd better say no
Well I thought it was funny...
There is sexism here in the west. It is a none too well hushed up fact that the men where I work get better pay than the women. But I actually think the whole maternity leave system is unfair on employers. When you factor that in, it levels out. Employers don't have a bottomless pit of cash. I could go and start a job tomorrow, not tell them I'm pregnant then when I go off on leave they're legally obliged to pay me. I've seen this happen a number of times - women start a job, work for a few months, go off on leave then just don't come back. So in sectors like secretarial where 99% are women (which I still don't understand, but still) women of child bearing age get passed over in preference for older candidates.
If a woman is paid less but is part of a family unit, then that's a good thing. If she wants to take time out to raise her kid and they're reliant on one wage coming in, then better it's a higher wage - surely? But there again, you have single mums who are going to be at a disadvantage.
I can see it from both sides and it's a tough one to get around.
Posted by Shanta Gdeeda (Member # 9889) on :
"Strangely enough, everyone did not notice that girls assets already in the police and the army."
بنات مصر.. شرطة وجيش وجوية! كتبت : دينا عمارة
نناشد السيد المشير حسين طنطاوي والسيد وزير الداخلية بفتح باب التـطوع للفتيات في الجيش والشرطة وذلك لخدمة الوطن وتحقيق الاستقرار والأمـن لشعب مصر, نريد المساهمة في خدمة وطننا الغالي.
جاءت هذه المناشدة من فتيات أنشأن مواقع علي الفيس بوك لتدعيم حملة قبول الفتيات في الجيش والشرطة, حيث بدأن في مناقشة الفكرة التي تضاربت حولها الآراء ما بين مؤيد ومعارض. أكثر التعليقات التي جاءت من بعض الرجال حملت نبرة: خليكوا في البيت أحسن هو الجيش ناقص؟ والبنت ملهاش غير بيتها وأولادها, ليه المرمطة طيب مانتوا قاعدين مكرمين في البيت..يعني هو في واحدة فيكوا هتعرف تسوق دبابة مثلا؟وبالنسبة للبلطجية هتعرفوا تتعاملوا معاهم إزاي؟ ده لو حد بس رفع عليكوا مطوة هتطلعوا تجروا, وبعدين إحنا مجتمع شرقي! بينما أبدي البعض الأخر من الرجال ترحيبهم بدخول الفتيات مجالات الشرطة ولكن في الأقسام الإدارية فقط, كالعلاقات العامة في الأقسام والمرور والبحث الجنائي والحرس الجامعي في الجامعات. اما آراء الفتيات فتأرجحت ما بين مؤيدات للفكرة علي اعتبار أن البنت زي الولد مهيش كمالة عدد,وإنه طالما هناك تدريب وممارسة جيدة يبقي كله تحت السيطرة, هما يعني الرجالة اتولدوا بيسوقوا دبابات ويمسكوا رشاشات؟ بينما رأت أخريات أن طبيعة المرأة تختلف عن طبيعة الرجل وأن الدخول في مثل هذه المجالات سوف يفقدها الكثير من أنوثتها التي تتميز بها. الغريب أن الجميع لم ينتبه إلي أن الفتيات موجودات بالفعل في الشرطة والجيش.
Google Translate (but I changed the author's name from the translation!)
Girls Egypt .. police, army and air! I wrote: (Dina Eimarat)
Appeal to Mr. Field Marshal Hussein Tantawi, Minister of Interior to open the door for girls to volunteer in the army and police so as to serve the nation and to achieve stability and security to the people of Egypt, we want to contribute to the service of our dear
The appeal came from the girls had set up sites on Facebook to support the campaign to accept girls in the army and police, where they began in the discussion around the idea that conflicting opinions between supporters and opponents. More comments that came from some of the men carried the tone: Klicua at home is the best army minus? And the emo girl is her home and her children, Les Almmermtp good Mantua and dignity are sitting at home .. I mean, is in one tank Vicoa Htaraf shopping for example? For the thugs Htarafoa you deal with them in what way? De if some Old raise Alicua Mtop Httalawa you conduct, and then, we are community-east! While there was some of the other men welcomed the girls to enter the areas of police, but only in the administrative departments, such as the relations in the public sections, traffic and criminal investigators, and the university guards in the universities. The views of girls Vtorjeht between supporters of the idea on the grounds that the girl child costume Mahesh number of completeness, and that as long as there is training and good practice to keep all under control, are means Alrjalp Atoldoa Bisoqgua tanks and machine guns caught? While others felt that the nature of women differ from men and that the nature of entering into such areas will lose much of their femininity that are characterized by. Strangely enough, everyone did not notice that girls assets already in the police and the army.
Posted by Shanta Gdeeda (Member # 9889) on :
Friend I saw today is adamant she saw a female microbus driver operating somewhere north of Cairo, on the way to Tanta. Normal microbus full of normal mixed passengers!
Posted by Shanta Gdeeda (Member # 9889) on :
Girls Want to Volunteer in the Police and Army facebook page:
quote:Originally posted by Tareq: We have kind of egyptian dignity here in egypt that we find it a shame for a woman to work as a taxi driver. in Europe the european say why not women working as taxi drivers.
Not only in Europe. Female taxi drivers are also common in Iran and UAE, for example. Posted by Shanta Gdeeda (Member # 9889) on :
There are female taxi drivers operating here, and truck drivers, and plumbers.
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
Women-only taxi drivers see their income up 50%
Female-only taxi drivers in Al Ain have seen their income double since the service was introduced and are now earning on average more than their male counterparts.
According to a report in the National, female taxi drivers working for Q-Link Transportation make on average AED12,000 ($3,300) a month, compared to AED8,000 for male drivers.
Filipino driver Flordeliza Ramos, told the paper, she is “getting many personal calls from women so I don’t have to drive around all day looking for women customers.
“The ladies feel safe with me and I feel safe with them. It’s a good system.”
In January, taxi regulator TransAD ordered that each taxi company operating in the emirate had to have 10 female-only taxis by the end of this month. As yet no company has the full amount of cars operational, the paper reported.
Women-only taxis are swiftly growing in popularity. In January, a company called Eve Taxis set up in Kuwait, following in the footsteps of other successful firms in the UAE, Lebanon, Syria, Iran and Bangladesh.
Egypt - Female taxi drivers challenge traditional stereotypes
Enas Hammam enters the Instant Rentals Headquarters behind the US Embassy in Garden City . She is flushed and breathless, but smiling. Wearing casual black pants, a grey shirt, a colourful veil and sunglasses - she is glad to share her experiences, practise her English and take a break from Cairo’s gridlocked traffic.
For more than a year, Enas has been one of six female taxi drivers, working at the Cairo City Cab Company.
Driving a taxi remains a male-dominated occupation, especially in Cairo, where Traffic Law bans women from driving cabs after 7:00 PM. But, thanks to women like Enas, a community of female taxi drivers is becoming a reality.
“I have always loved driving,” says Enas. “I was looking for a job, when I came across an advertisement in a newspaper saying that a company was hiring female taxi drivers, so I decided to apply.”
Now, she is a self-confident, 36-year-old mother of two teenage children, who works with enthusiasm from 7:00 AM to 6:00 PM.
“I think women can do what men can do. We should think about the service we get, not who does it," she says. "For this reason, I've urged other women to apply for a job driving a taxi and I've heard that two women did.”
That's not to say there haven't been some difficulties, as Emad Abdel Rahman, Deputy General Manager of the cab company, explains.
“My idea of having women as taxi drivers stemmed from demand," he says. "When we opened the company , we received many calls from mothers, wives, or men whose daughters or wives needed a taxi for long rides, and were expressly asking for female drivers."
"As a businessman, if someone asks for a service, I provide it,” adds Abdel Rahman.
After waiting for a government license for two years, a group of businessmen recently established three new taxi companies: Cairo Cab, City Cab, and Cairo International Cab. Each company started out with only 15 taxis, but they have since merged into a single company called 'Instant Rentals'.
The new taxis came as part of a local government project to modernize the taxis on the streets of Cairo. While people have long been accustomed to taking the old black and white cabs, the new taxis not only differ in colour (yellow), but are also owned by the company and not the driver. They are modern, air-conditioned and most importantly come equipped with a digital meter.
But it’s the call centre that really differentiates Cairo’s yellow taxis from their black and white counterparts. For the first time, customers are able to book taxis by dialing 16516. You can also find them at designated taxi stations, in addition to the traditional method of simply flagging them down. However, City Taxi’s meters start from LE3.50, as opposed to the white and black cabs' initial fare of LE2.50.
Drivers, both male and female, are required to hold at least a High School Diploma, have a good command of English, prove they are in good health and pass an admittance test. The company provides driving courses for suitable candidates and currently employs 500 male drivers, along with six female drivers ranging from 30 to 45 years old.
Despite being a minority, female cabbies make better profits “because they are specifically requested by customers for longer rides. For example: from the Fifth Settlement (el-Tagammu el-Khames) to 6th October, ” notes Abdel Rahman. “Whereas rides with male drivers are mostly inside the city.”
Consequently, starting from a fixed monthly salary of LE700 for both genders, women can double their earnings as a result of the 20-percent commission they receive on each ride.
According to Abdel Rahman, this financial disparity along with the idea that women should not drive taxis, at first strained relations between the two genders. Even though Cairo Cab Company provides family taxis rather than women only cabs, more than 60 percent of their customers are women, including wives, students and female tourists.
“Women from Arab countries always ask for female drivers when they come to Egypt,” says Abdel Rahman.
Ali Abul Yazeed, a 54-year-old taxi driver in the same company, doesn't envy the success of his female colleagues.
“I think it's a good idea. It provides more job opportunities, and many girls prefer to have female drivers. Some customers may not fully trust female drivers, but they still believe it's more safe,” Abul Yazeed says. He goes on to note, however, that “while one woman can make LE400 per day, a man can barely earn LE200 a day.”
However, the initiative has received some criticism from the Egyptian Centre for Women’s Rights (ECWR). On its website, it describes the project as "a naïve attempt to solve a problem that will have dangerous effects on social and security problems.”
The Centre adds: “The solutions to these problems require hard work, proper planning, and studying root causes, as opposed to creating women-designated areas that restrict and isolate women.”
Abdel Rahman, for his part, says his aim was not to prevent sexual harassment, but to make profits and offer job opportunities to people of both genders. In addition, he notes, women taxi drivers do not work only with female customers, but with patrons of both sexes.
“I don't have problems driving men since they deal with the call centre and not with me, providing all their personal information to the company,” Enas says. "I never pick up male clients from the street, though, because this could be dangerous."
And for Abul Yazeed, “this idea does not support women’s isolation; it is rather a way to provide women with more safety, according to their demand. Metro only women cars are also a good service , although some women do not use it. Anyone is free to do whatever he/she wants.”
However, Enas admits, that she often receives angry stares from male drivers and that she is often subject to verbal harassment from people on the street.
This has not, however, served to deter Enas, or her five female colleagues.
“I’m very busy - the first in my garage," she says proudly. "I get more calls than anyone.”
quote:Originally posted by Tareq: I personally believe women's rights that is needed in Egypt should never come from western countries because the culture is not the same
I really don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with that. Each culture has its own values and system for deducing values (oh dear, getting all too abstract again!), I've made this point on some other thread and won't repeat it here. I'm not restricting my remark here to women's issues but to democracy as a whole. I don't think "western style democracy" is the only or even the best way for a society to function. Granted it is a proven system in "western societies", though not without flaws. But is it suitable for every culture. I'd argue no.
Another point regarding women's rights, getting bogged down into the symantics I'm afraid. I'm all for justice, but not equality. Men and women are not equal physically and emotionally, that's a fact. This means that the expectations from each and consequently their rights "may" be different. Now, before you start jumping up and down in dismay, let me clarify by a particular example. I'm against paternity leave because the man/father does nothing really in carrying or delivering the baby! So a day or two for moral support to the mother and to look after the issues arising is enough (ok, maybe a few days). Now equality would mandate that a man would take the same number of days as the mother. I believe most sensible people would find that ludicrous!
Obviously in matters where ability (or dare I say biological role) is not an issue, they are equal.
Ok, now let me stand blindfolded in front of the wall so you can start shooting!
Posted by Ramses nemesis (Member # 4125) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: This is my personal opinion.
This approach alienates the majority of Egyptian women, such egos need to abate, and focus more on what matters most - Egyptian women betterment. Not headlines, not BS, and most of all not for the sake of western appeasement.
I also have contempt for superficial feminists, or ones who uphold the status quo, and are easily manipulated or intimidated. Somewhere along the middle is what Egypt is lacking, or Egyptian feminists that are able to reach across to most Egyptian women and not just the westernized Egyptian women.
....................
Egypt could do without feminist that play to western media and politicians. What Egypt needs are Egyptian women who are level headed and those that are able to play the game. Smart women who can not only march, but also change the mindset of the Egyptian household. Hopefully a women party will be formed, and yes I did say that, a women party, where they will side with a coalition that will be in their own best self interest.
Something new, because the old is BS. I have faith.
Very wise words indeed Exiiled, I totally agree.
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: I'm against paternity leave because the man/father does nothing really in carrying or delivering the baby! … Now equality would mandate that a man would take the same number of days as the mother. I believe most sensible people would find that ludicrous!
There are some things I don't understand, maybe you can clarify?
(And I hope you will take the time to reply and not tell me we have to agree to disagree and disappear from the discussion as you usually do just after you've stated your opinion. )
Firstly, maternity/paternity leave is about staying home with a child for a certain period of time. A father can do that just as well as the mother, the fact that the woman delivered the child does not mean that she is better at changing diapers, feeding, pampering, playing and so on. Do you think the fact that a woman is the one who carries a child means that all child-caring and household duties should automatically be her responsibility? If yes, why?
Secondly, I think it should be up to a couple to decide which arrangement suits them best. Why try to restrict the legal option or ridicule them by saying it's ludicrous? I know that it might be hard for people who live in a society where stereotypical perceptions of masculinity and femininity still prevail, to wrap their head around this concept. But an important aspect of progress – and of democracy – is that we should be open to new ideas and not condemn something just because it sounds strange at first or doesn't fit our personal ideas.
You think it's unnatural and ludicrous if a man stays at home with a small child. Others believe it's a good solution. How should we determine who is right and who is wrong? If it works for people who make this choice, why should someone have the right to call them "not sensible" or try to restrict their options?
And obviously it does work. In Sweden, for example, about 85% of the men take a parental leave – with very beneficial results for families and for society as a whole, for example higher birth and lower divorce rates. Now Egypt is not like Sweden, and I'm not saying what works there would work here. But it shows that our perceptions of what is "natural", "normal" or "just" might often be limited by our personal/cultural background and perceptions.
Two interesting articles about paternity leave, one describing the personal experiences of an American man married to a Swedish woman who made some surprising discoveries.
Understanding what it is to be home with a child may help explain why divorce and separation rates in Sweden have dropped since 1995 — at a time when divorce rates elsewhere have risen, according to the national statistics office. When couples do divorce or separate, shared custody has increased. …
For many companies, a family-friendly work pattern has simply become a new way of attracting talent.
“Graduates used to look for big paychecks. Now they want work-life balance,” said Goran Henriksson, head of human resources at the cellphone giant Ericsson in Sweden, where last year 28 percent of female employees took leave, and 24 percent of male staff did. “We have to adapt.”
quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: I'm all for justice, but not equality. Men and women are not equal physically and emotionally, that's a fact. This means that the expectations from each and consequently their rights "may" be different.
I think we have to be very careful with statements like this, because they are often used in order to deprive women of basic human rights. Whenever I hear the phrase "justice but not equality" I become very wary, because what usually follows – particularly, but not only, in Islamic discourse – are long explanations and justifications why it should be perfectly just and logical that women can't become presidents or judges, that their testimony in court counts less than that of a man, that a man should be the decision maker, have a greater right to divorce, be the one who earns the income etc. pp. And usually those "explanations" are full of silly stereotypes, derogatory statements about women, and allegations that are simply not true.
Maybe you can elaborate on your statement? Which rights in particular do you think should be different for men and women and why?
In any case – I don't think paternity leave (or, for that matter driving taxis) is very high on the priority list of Egyptian women who are calling for change and more rights. There are more pressing and basic issues at hand, and I find it a bit weird that those have not been addressed in this thread.
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
What Egyptian Women (and Men) Want
Survey data reveals what Egyptians expect from their new country, on everything from legal rights and education to the role of Islamic law.
After hundreds of thousands of Egyptian men and women stood side by side in Tahrir Square for 18 days in the name of freedom and dignity, only a handful turned out on Tuesday, March 8 to support the International Women's Day "Million Woman March," which ended with counter-protesters intimidating and even attacking those who came.
Some hypothesized that security concerns kept women and their male supporters home. Not likely. Security was far worse in the weeks before Hosni Mubarak's resignation, and women then filled the square.
Many Western pundits pointed to the low turnout and the ugly counterprotest as evidence of Egyptian society's lack of support for gender equality. But that's not the case. Egyptian men and women's support for equal legal rights between the sexes, though not unanimous, has steadily climbed over the past six years. Shortly before the protests began, a comfortable majority of both men and women said they supported legal gender parity.
Moreover, Egyptian men and women overwhelmingly support equality in education for boys and girls. Today, Egypt boasts no gender gap in post-secondary education, where men and women compete in all fields of study.
A clue to the low turnout may be in the details of the organizers' demands. According to fliers passed out at the march, the protesters were calling for the elimination of "Article 2" of the Egyptian Constitution, which declares Islam as the religion of the state and Islamic jurisprudence (sharia) as the principal source of legislation.
If the protesters on March 8 were indeed calling for a constitution that completely eliminated Islam's legal tradition from informing national law, they were in very small company. According to national Gallup surveys conducted in Egypt shortly before the start of the January 25th Revolution, only 1.4 percent of women and 2.1 percent of men say sharia should not be a source of legislation.
At the same time, most Egyptians also favor a constitution that guarantees freedom of religion and expression.
Many Westerners see a direct contradiction between men and women's thoughts on sharia compliance. For many in the West, and the East alike, sharia is an ossified set of edicts that oppresses women and violates human rights.
However, the vast majority of Egyptians associate the religious legal tradition with something very different. In what looks like an exact reversal of Western assumptions, Gallup found that Egyptian men and women -- in equal numbers -- overwhelmingly associate Islam's judicial tradition with "justice for women," "human rights," and other dimensions of social justice, including protection of minorities.
If most Egyptians understand their faith's sacred law to promote equality, then contrary to conventional wisdom, we might actually expect practicing religious Egyptians to be more in favor of women's rights than their non-practicing compatriots. That is in fact the case -- but only for men. Men who reported attending a religious service in the past week were more likely than men who did not to say they supported equal rights for women (data from 2005). However, women who attended a religious service were as likely as women who did not to favor equal legal rights for women. This suggests that for men, anti-women cultural trends are somewhat mitigated by religious teachings to the contrary. After all, it was Egypt's grand mufti, Ali Gomaa, who declared in an official fatwa (religious legal opinion) that women could serve as judges, even as secular judges rejected the notion. It was also his legal opinion that female genital mutilation was against Islam, despite Egypt's cultural norms which result in the circumcision of the majority of both Muslim and Christian girls.
Put simply, Egyptians seem to see no contradiction between the faith to which they adhere and the democratic ideals to which they aspire. The data also suggests that their desired democratization should not be confused with a push for Westernization.
Egypt tops the region in two things: Egyptians are the most likely to say Muslim progress requires democracy, and the most likely to say Muslim progress requires attachment to spiritual and moral values.
Working out the proper relationship between these two priorities will be the next phase of the revolution.
Commenting on something Exiiled said, women CAN be there own worst enemies.
In 1973 at school, we had to choose a 'practical skill' option - of course most girls chose Domestic Science and most boys chose Woodwork/Metalwork. I chose Technical Drawing - I was the only girl (and what's more I was bloody good at it - 2nd in class - top of class was a boy whose father was a Draughtsman). I was sneered at BY OTHER GIRLS for wanting to go against THEIR norms "Look at her, who does she think she is". A couple of brave boys picked Domestic Science. They were sneered at BY GIRLS. As school I said I wanted to study physics at university - I was sneered at BY GIRLS. And look at the fuss when Angela Rippon was allowed to read the main evening news on BBC!!!! 'Women lack gravitas' etc etc.
Notice how often women, when confronted with a woman in the public eye whose views they don't agree with will respond with comments on her physical appearance eg reaction to Ann Widecombe?
"Look at the state of her, who does she think she is". Women have been as indoctrinated as men to think that the only thing that is important for a woman is that she looks good and can pull a guy with a fat wallet.
And consider how frequently women as mothers and mother-in-law are complicit and indeed initiate crimes against other women with regard to FGM, forced marriage and the like, and in covering up rape and other similar crimes.
Posted by Ramses nemesis (Member # 4125) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: I'm against paternity leave because the man/father does nothing really in carrying or delivering the baby! … Now equality would mandate that a man would take the same number of days as the mother. I believe most sensible people would find that ludicrous!
There are some things I don't understand, maybe you can clarify?
(And I hope you will take the time to reply and not tell me we have to agree to disagree and disappear from the discussion as you usually do just after you've stated your opinion. )
Firstly, maternity/paternity leave is about staying home with a child for a certain period of time. A father can do that just as well as the mother, the fact that the woman delivered the child does not mean that she is better at changing diapers, feeding, pampering, playing and so on. Do you think the fact that a woman is the one who carries a child means that all child-caring and household duties should automatically be her responsibility? If yes, why?
Secondly, I think it should be up to a couple to decide which arrangement suits them best. Why try to restrict the legal option or ridicule them by saying it's ludicrous? I know that it might be hard for people who live in a society where stereotypical perceptions of masculinity and femininity still prevail, to wrap their head around this concept. But an important aspect of progress – and of democracy – is that we should be open to new ideas and not condemn something just because it sounds strange at first or doesn't fit our personal ideas.
You think it's unnatural and ludicrous if a man stays at home with a small child. Others believe it's a good solution. How should we determine who is right and who is wrong? If it works for people who make this choice, why should someone have the right to call them "not sensible" or try to restrict their options?
And obviously it does work. In Sweden, for example, about 85% of the men take a parental leave – with very beneficial results for families and for society as a whole, for example higher birth and lower divorce rates. Now Egypt is not like Sweden, and I'm not saying what works there would work here. But it shows that our perceptions of what is "natural", "normal" or "just" might often be limited by our personal/cultural background and perceptions.
Two interesting articles about paternity leave, one describing the personal experiences of an American man married to a Swedish woman who made some surprising discoveries.
Understanding what it is to be home with a child may help explain why divorce and separation rates in Sweden have dropped since 1995 — at a time when divorce rates elsewhere have risen, according to the national statistics office. When couples do divorce or separate, shared custody has increased. …
For many companies, a family-friendly work pattern has simply become a new way of attracting talent.
“Graduates used to look for big paychecks. Now they want work-life balance,” said Goran Henriksson, head of human resources at the cellphone giant Ericsson in Sweden, where last year 28 percent of female employees took leave, and 24 percent of male staff did. “We have to adapt.”
quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: I'm all for justice, but not equality. Men and women are not equal physically and emotionally, that's a fact. This means that the expectations from each and consequently their rights "may" be different.
I think we have to be very careful with statements like this, because they are often used in order to deprive women of basic human rights. Whenever I hear the phrase "justice but not equality" I become very wary, because what usually follows – particularly, but not only, in Islamic discourse – are long explanations and justifications why it should be perfectly just and logical that women can't become presidents or judges, that their testimony in court counts less than that of a man, that a man should be the decision maker, have a greater right to divorce, be the one who earns the income etc. pp. And usually those "explanations" are full of silly stereotypes, derogatory statements about women, and allegations that are simply not true.
Maybe you can elaborate on your statement? Which rights in particular do you think should be different for men and women and why?
In any case – I don't think paternity leave (or, for that matter driving taxis) is very high on the priority list of Egyptian women who are calling for change and more rights. There are more pressing and basic issues at hand, and I find it a bit weird that those have not been addressed in this thread.
Thanks for your comments. I'm only replying because you gave me the courtesy of reading my post and I feel I have to reciprocate. Unfortunately I don't have the luxury of time, but will try to address whatever I can succinctly and leave the rest for some other opportunity.
I have to stress though that I see absolutely nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree1 I fail to fathom why some people find this concept difficult to understand or accept. I believe that different people may have different opinions on the same issue. Yet, some people want everybody to see the world through their eyes, and only through them. I believe this is the stuff bigotry is made of. (I'm not refering to any particular individual here).
I also don't state my opinion and disapear. I often stay around and read the replies. If and only if I have something to add, I will. It's just that I don't believe in flogging a dead horse really.
Now, the answer to your "Firstly" question is a resounding NO. Some mothers don't deserve the honour of the title/role.
"Secondly": I think there must've been a misunderstanding. Either I wasn't clear or you didn't understand me, but first let me apologise if you thought I was "ridiculing" any domestic arrangement, especially that it may very well apply to some people here (I just don't know). I wasn't ridiculing anybody. The second misunderstanding came from the notion of maternity leave. I meant it in the Egyptian sense, i.e. a time off to deliver the baby. It is obvious that this only applies to women.
You raise a lot of issues in this section some are worth discussing further, but I'm really sorry I don't have the time at the moment. I will ignore the patronising tone in this part including what appears to me to be implicit unsubstantiated claims about my background. I say unsubstantiated simply because you don't know anything about my nationality, religion, gender, culture, etc. It the same with me too. As a matter of fact, as far as I'm concerned everybody around here are amorphous virutal entities floating in cyberspace! I know absolutely nothing about anybody, and I'm really not intersted in knowing, simply because we have no way of verifying what people say about themselves in cyberia, including something as basic as gender (someone around here a few years ago called themselves mother Egypt and turned out to be a bloke!!).
As I said, I do agree with some of what you say and disagree with some, hmmm, surprise surprise! Again, I apologise for not having the time to elaborate. To do it justice, I have to go back and read your and other peoples' posts on this thread and possibly follow the links you give. Unfortunately I just don't have the time for that. Maybe some other time!
All the best
Posted by citizen (Member # 1344) on :
Well to answer a few points: 1. Western feminism - there are universal human rights and that's what women want to enjoy too. Culture is not embodied in women, so it's blatant discrimination to bring up cultural relativism where women's rights are concerned but not men's rights (or lives, or relationships, or bodies...). Egypt has a whole range of feminists, who represent the spectrum of public opinion and none of them are 'Western' - some are secular, some religious; some are conservative, some liberal; all have the same goals however. Women need to be able to control their own lives, be able to make choices... it's that simple. 2. Equality - well obviously there are differences between men and women, but that doesn't mean that women should be discriminated against legally, socially, economically and politically which they are in Egypt. And even if you don't think women should enjoy equal rights and duties (at the moment they have fewer rights and greater duties), then you have to be aware that no society prospers when women are excluded from participation. They are the ones who raise the families so they are responsible for 75% of the population at any given time (women and children). It is therefore vital to consider their needs and problems. Egypt is building from scratch and everyone needs to be included in that process.
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
Male Domination in Egypt is Only Half a Revolution
I have to stress though that I see absolutely nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree.
I also don't state my opinion and disapear. I often stay around and read the replies. If and only if I have something to add, I will. It's just that I don't believe in flogging a dead horse really.
Me neither. But I am very much in favour of an exchange of thoughts. And that is not possible when a person just states their opinion, but then refuses to answer any questions. I don't think asking someone to clarify their point of view is "flogging a dead horse".
quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis:
"Secondly": I think there must've been a misunderstanding. Either I wasn't clear or you didn't understand me, but first let me apologise if you thought I was "ridiculing" any domestic arrangement, especially that it may very well apply to some people here (I just don't know). I wasn't ridiculing anybody. The second misunderstanding came from the notion of maternity leave. I meant it in the Egyptian sense, i.e. a time off to deliver the baby. It is obvious that this only applies to women.
Well, you wrote that "most sensible people would find it ludicrous" if the father takes the same number of days off as the mother. That *is* ridiculing. But yes, we were both referring to different things, so I think the issue is solved.
I will ignore the patronising tone in this part including what appears to me to be implicit unsubstantiated claims about my background. I say unsubstantiated simply because you don't know anything about my nationality, religion, gender, culture, etc.
I just read my post again and could not find anything that sounds patronizing. Can you clarify which comment of mine you perceived this way? It was most certainly not my intention to be patronizing in any way.
I have not made any claims regarding your background, where are you getting this from?
The only thing I know about you is that, according to your own words, you are Egyptian, Muslim ("religious" though "not strict"), and consider yourself upper middle class:
He's an Eygptian muslim gentleman. He wouldn't consider himself particularly religous, but like many men of his generation and social background, he observes the "five pillars" (not hajj though) and avoids the so called "majors".
As for his social class, he considers himself to be upper-middle class
he doesn't consider himself religious, so not a "strict muslim" (however you define that!)
As I said, I do agree with some of what you say and disagree with some, hmmm, surprise surprise! Again, I apologise for not having the time to elaborate. To do it justice, I have to go back and read your and other peoples' posts on this thread and possibly follow the links you give. Unfortunately I just don't have the time for that. Maybe some other time!
M3alesh. Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
The lunatic is on the grass Remembering games and daisy chains and laughs Got to keep the loonies on the path
Posted by Ramses nemesis (Member # 4125) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*:
..............
Goodness me!! You’re resurrecting a thread more than a month after it had died, for what purpose. I find that odd. But what I find really weird is that you went back and unearthed a thread from almost two years ago!!! That is really scary. Are you stalking me, keeping a tab on everything I’ve been posting for the past couple of years! Or did you search for info about me or for my posts on this site. If so, why would you put such effort just to try to prove a random stranger wrong!
I really think you’re taking this way too seriously, you need to get a life. I mean this honestly not sarcastically. I personally come here for a laugh and occasionally a serious discussion, and one time to seek advice (in the thread you’re linking to). I’m not here to get involved in arguments or score a point or try to prove someone wrong (I believe I’ve mentioned that around here before, check you’re archive of Ramses postings!). That doesn’t mean that I shy away from controversy. Whilst I don’t seek it, I’m more than capable of standing my grounds, but also have the grace to admit defeat if it happens. That is in real life, but around here, I don’t need to get into arguments. If you’ve been following my posts, you’ll find that I deliberately avoid them, simply because real life already has a lot of conflicts and complexities, we don’t need to bring those to ES too. Besides you can usually tell if the difference in opinion is genuine or if the person’s just after argument and controversy (I’m not talking about you here, but generally). So I normally ignore such people, not out of disrespect, but just “buying my head” as the Egyptians say
One positive thing from your last post is the link to the old thread. I re-read the whole thing again, it brought back some fond memories. I hadn’t realised that new people have posted after I left. BTW, where are some of the posters of back then: Ministry of whatever, Questionmarks, stayingput and “My Kingdom for a Plate of Koshary” or something! Those were nice genuine people, in my experience at least! Anyway, thanks for that link, and I really mean it.
Have a good day
Ramses – let’s agree to disagree - nemesis
Posted by Ramses nemesis (Member # 4125) on :
just checked my profile, it turned out I've joined ES in April 2004. That's seven years ago!!! Good heavens, indeed tempus fugit!!
Throughout those seven years, I've posted about 425 posts. That's about sixty posts a year, shows you how important ES is to me, lol. Some people post more than that in a week!
Actually tomorrow it's seven years to the day, so happy anniversery Ramses!!
Ciao amigos
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: You’re resurrecting a thread more than a month after it had died, for what purpose. I find that odd.
I sometimes read and discuss something, then stay away for weeks, remember the thread again and reply.
That happens all the time on forums, as long as the subject is still interesting, I don't see what the problem is. If you think it's odd or that certain subjects have an expiry date, nobody's forcing you to reply.
quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: But what I find really weird is that you went back and unearthed a thread from almost two years ago!!! That is really scary. Are you stalking me, keeping a tab on everything I’ve been posting for the past couple of years! Or did you search for info about me or for my posts on this site. If so, why would you put such effort just to try to prove a random stranger wrong!
Dear Lord! You do have quite an inflated sense of self-importance.
I have not tried to prove you wrong. Neither have I trawled this site looking for info about you.
You accused me of making "unsubstantiated claims about your background". Fact is, I have not thought about or mentioned your background at all – until YOU brought it up. All I *knew* about you was that you are Egyptian and maybe living abroad. After your were getting all upset about me supposedly making claims about your background, I clicked on your profile, took a look on "last posts" / "topics started" and came across the thread I quoted from. It took me literally less than five minutes, you can check it for yourself.
But, hey, if it gives you an ego boost to believe that some woman on the internet is stalking you, be my guest. If it enhances your self esteem and makes you happy, I don't see anything wrong with it.
quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: I personally come here for a laugh and occasionally a serious discussion, and one time to seek advice (in the thread you’re linking to). I’m not here to get involved in arguments or score a point or try to prove someone wrong
Same here.
You wasted time and energy writing various paragraphs about stuff completely unrelated to the subject, focussing on me and what, according to your imagination, I am thinking and doing, instead of just staying on topic. I made it repeatedly clear that I am only interested in a discussion about the subject of this thread and an exchange of thoughts, yet it is you who keeps bringing this down to a personal level.
So if you have anything to add to the original subject, I am happy to have a conversation with you. Anything else will be ignored.
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