Join us on Saturday April 25, 2020 as we welcome back Dr. Shomarka Keita, biological anthropologist, to our program for another exciting discussion about African history (in general) and Nile-Valley history (in particular). While our first discussion was a general introduction to biological anthropology, its methods, concerns, and general application to African and Egyptological studies, this conversation is a little bit more focused and narrow. For our second interview, Dr. Keita will discuss the following:
1) Modern statistical studies on the biological affinity of the ancient Egyptians (e.g., dental vs craniofacial evidence, cephalometry, etc.); 2) New archaeological studies that speak to the origins of ancient Egypt. And, 3) The latest on the fight and details of COVID-19 on African-Americans
This will definitely be an engagement that requires some serious note-taking. So, we encourage our listeners to have a pin-and-pad ready (as well as some snacks ) for jotting down notes and sources. Unlike our previous programs, this show encourages the listener to read the following texts prior to the discussion. Many of the points in these texts will be brought up throughout the interview. Please subscribe (if you have not already), share, and hit the notify button so you are sent a reminder for the show.
Assigned homework to be read before our discussion:
2) ""The early neolithic, Qarunian burial from the northern Fayum desert" (1989) by Maciej Henneberg, Michal Kobusiewicz, Romuald Schild and Fred Wendorf. books.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/propylaeum/reader/download/194/194-30-76484-1-10-20170112.pdf
3) _Troublesome Science: The Misuse of Genetics and Genomics in Understanding Race_ (2018) by Rob DeSalle, and Ian Tattersall (contact me for copy)
GET YOUR COPY TODAY! Towards a Comparative Dictionary of CIkam and Modern African Languages (2020): asarimhotep.com/shop-market/books/towards-a-comparative-dictionary-of-cikam-and-modern-african-languages
Aaluja Vol. II: Cyena-Ntu Religion and Philosophy (2020). : asarimhotep.com/shop-market/books/aaluja-vol-ii-cyena-ntu-religion-and-philosophy
To continue to support this channel, please consider donating with Cash App: CashApp: $asarimhotep
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Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
1 - Should we post queestions here or on youtube? 2 - For the 3rd source just PM you email address i assume?
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
You can ask them here or in the live chat. And yes, you can send me your email via private message.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Is this going to be a review of why Keita has been speaking about for years or is their going to be anything new?
Posted by Punos_Rey (Member # 21929) on :
Asar Imhotep:
Thanks for the heads up. I will copy and paste your post in my African Anthropology groups for those who want to join in or donate.
Posted by Askia_The_Great (Member # 22000) on :
Thanks.
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
The topic has already been outlined in the initial thread.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Is this going to be a review of why Keita has been speaking about for years or is their going to be anything new?
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
I appreciate it. Thank you.
quote:Originally posted by Punos_Rey: Asar Imhotep:
Thanks for the heads up. I will copy and paste your post in my African Anthropology groups for those who want to join in or donate.
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
You're welcome.
quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: Thanks.
Posted by Punos_Rey (Member # 21929) on :
Asar, what time on Saturday will this take place?
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
1PM Eastern Standard Time (United States) [I know we have many overseas individuals on the forum].
quote:Originally posted by Punos_Rey: Asar, what time on Saturday will this take place?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Whether this is a review of what he's already done I am glad this interview is being done and you are doing it Asar. I see from the first part now one he has a lot to say.
I have some questions for Keita
1)Can genetics determine groups living today that have specific alleles indicating them being descendant of people from Ancient Egypt. One DNA company says Copts in Sudan are directly related. People also say southern Egyptians might be most directly related
2)Is Egyptian a Bantu language?
3)Is Abusir el-Meleq study lopsided in that they analyzed 90 mummies, drew broad conclusions about the whole civilization yet of the 90 mummies only 3 were tested for Y DNA ?
4) Are you convinced that there is a white crown on the Qustul Incense burner and how does Nubia relate to Egypt during the A-Group?
5)In your opinion if the famous painted bust of Nefertiti a fake in some way either the whole thing or the paint and why is there so much variance in appearance with relief depictions or Nefertiti?
6)Perhaps the most famous recent reconstruction of Tutankhamen is Elisabeth Daynes's 2006 reconstruction for the cover of National Geographic. A similar one, also widely viewed was made in 2014 for the BBC documentary “Tutankhamen: The Truth Uncovered,” Neither one had the dark brown skin tone that is obvious in his tomb art. Should we be organizing letters of protest when this happens?
7)How much evidence is there for Hebrews being descendants of Hyksos and did they invade or come in slowly, peacefully?
8)In the famous Book of Gates scene that Diop put on his book a figure labled RmT, for Egyptians is dressed exactly the same as the Nehesy or Kushite figure. Did the artist or scribe make a mistake or is it not a mistake?
9)How can we verify who the famous stone head in the Petrie museum labeled as Narmer or Menes is?
10)When the Greeks and Romans began using the word "Nubian" was it inspired by the Nobatae or gold or one of the cities called Nubt? Why did they pick that word?
11)On the Narmer palette Narmer is holding a foe and ready to strike him with a mace. Of what group might the foes on that palette be?
If possible please forward him the questions to him in advance if possible
thanks
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
I'll forward some of these to him. Some of these are outside of his field: 2)Is Egyptian a Bantu language? He's not a linguist and this he made clear in the first interview. This question:
quote:8)In the famous Book of Gates scene that Diop put on his book a figure labled RmT, for Egyptians is dressed exactly the same as the Nehesy or Kushite figure. Did the artist or scribe make a mistake or is it not a mistake?
... is easily answered. I have been to Egypt twice and I have seen the tomb myself. I have taken pictures of it, as well as others who have been there. It is there. I've witnessed it and it's not up for debate. Even Manu Ampim has done a treatise on the subject, which you can find here: http://manuampim.com/ramesesIII.htm
So I'm not going to waste my time with questions you can easily verify yourself. But a few of these questions are in alignment with the topic on Saturday.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Whether this is a review of what he's already done I am glad this interview is being done and you are doing it Asar. I see from the first part now one he has a lot to say.
I have some questions for Keita
1)Can genetics determine groups living today that have specific alleles indicating them being descendant of people from Ancient Egypt. One DNA company says Copts in Sudan are directly related. People also say southern Egyptians might be most directly related
2)Is Egyptian a Bantu language?
3)Is Abusir el-Meleq study lopsided in that they analyzed 90 mummies, drew broad conclusions about the whole civilization yet of the 90 mummies only 3 were tested for Y DNA ?
4) Are you convinced that there is a white crown on the Qustul Incense burner and how does Nubia relate to Egypt during the A-Group?
5)In your opinion if the famous painted bust of Nefertiti a fake in some way either the whole thing or the paint and why is there so much variance in appearance with relief depictions or Nefertiti?
6)Perhaps the most famous recent reconstruction of Tutankhamen is Elisabeth Daynes's 2006 reconstruction for the cover of National Geographic. A similar one, also widely viewed was made in 2014 for the BBC documentary “Tutankhamen: The Truth Uncovered,” Neither one had the dark brown skin tone that is obvious in his tomb art. Should we be organizing letters of protest when this happens?
7)How much evidence is there for Hebrews being descendants of Hyksos and did they invade or come in slowly, peacefully?
8)In the famous Book of Gates scene that Diop put on his book a figure labled RmT, for Egyptians is dressed exactly the same as the Nehesy or Kushite figure. Did the artist or scribe make a mistake or is it not a mistake?
9)How can we verify who the famous stone head in the Petrie museum labeled as Narmer or Menes is?
10)When the Greeks and Romans began using the word "Nubian" was it inspired by the Nobatae or gold or one of the cities called Nubt? Why did they pick that word?
11)On the Narmer palette Narmer is holding a foe and ready to strike him with a mace. Of what group might the foes on that palette be?
If possible please forward him the questions to him in advance if possible
thanks
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: [QB] I'll forward some of these to him. Some of these are outside of his field: 2)Is Egyptian a Bantu language? He's not a linguist and this he made clear in the first interview. This question:
quote:8)In the famous Book of Gates scene that Diop put on his book a figure labled RmT, for Egyptians is dressed exactly the same as the Nehesy or Kushite figure. Did the artist or scribe make a mistake or is it not a mistake?
... is easily answered. I have been to Egypt twice and I have seen the tomb myself. I have taken pictures of it, as well as others who have been there. It is there. I've witnessed it and it's not up for debate. Even Manu Ampim has done a treatise on the subject, which you can find here: http://manuampim.com/ramesesIII.htm
So I'm not going to waste my time with questions you can easily verify yourself. But a few of these questions are in alignment with the topic on Saturday.
Here's the question rephrased
8) In the famous Book of Gates scene from Ramesses III where four groups of mankind are depicted the Egyptians are depicted with the same clothing as the the Nehesy. Why?
that question is not easily answered
yes the photo proves that a set of figures dressed in the same way as the Nehesy are labeled in the glyphs as Egyptian but the question is why do they look the same but in other tombs they do not look the same.
We can't assume S.O.Y. Keita has the same opinion as Manu Ampim.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Not to distract as this matter's been thoroughly discussed on ES from 2004 on up to 2018 and technically is far off-topic to this SOY Keita intrvw thread. https://www.google.com/search?q="kv11"+altakruri+site:www.egyptsearch.com Copy & paste into your url window/address bar to make link work.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
... I have been to Egypt twice and I have seen the tomb myself. I have taken pictures of it, as well as others who have been there. It is there. I've witnessed it and it's not up for debate. ...
Textual(link 1) order(link 2) never changes only the illustration does and only two paintings alone are abberations.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
8) In the famous Book of Gates scene from Ramesses III where four groups of mankind are depicted the Egyptians are depicted with the same clothing as the the Nehesy. Why?
that question is not easily answered
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
AFRICANA STUDIES THE “TABLE OF NATIONS” SCENE IN THE TOMB OF RAMSES III
Prof. Manu Ampim
The one thing that is consistent about these scenes is that the *order* does not change
: the Egyptians are always shown as the *first group* on the far left next to the god Heru (Horus);
then the Aamw second;
the Nubians are always the third group from the left;
and the Tjhnw are the fourth group from the left.
Egyptians Asiatics Nubians Libyans (Tjhnw)
- nobody follows Libyans, that is the end
.
____________________________________So why are Libyans being followed? ^^^^
.
Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
Here is my "Question". Its somewhat long winded so Dr. Ketia can get a feel of what I am looking for.
The genetic community has seen a lot of ancient Eurasian samples over the past few years. There are multiple lines of evidnce showing genetic turnovers in Eurasia. Differnet levels of genetic substructure some of which are quite widespread connect dislocated populations like "Basal Eurasian" and "ANE". While i am not too versed in European genetics it would seem that populations from the Neolithic Near East and Eurasian Steppes were some of the most sucessful latecomers in terms of Uni-Parental DNA, autosomal data and especially language. There have also been some surprises, one being that the main male Haplogroup in Europeans (R), derives from a subclade of the South East Asian lineaege of K2b2.
While Ancient DNA in Africa exists and more is forthcoming there is still a lot to be desired. Some of the main avenues for migration such as the Nile Valley and Sahara-Sahel Belt are lacking in samples. Using Eurasia as a model, and drawing from your expertise as far as the study of African physical remains, language, pottery styles, stone/bone tool usage, fossils etc........What type of Genetic Substructure and turnover would you expect to see as the Ancient Samples come in? What population centers would be best sampled in trying to reaveal some of this anceint diveristy and how it relates to population movements of the past and contemporary Africans? Something like Barbed bone points show an African tradition spaning a very long distance with possible extreme continuity. This could somewhat be said of Sahara Pottery or the aqualithic as well. We (non Academic Hobbiest) can hypothesized some of this stuff but its really going to take some years of study for some of us to really know what this means in terms of populations affinity among contemporary humans in Africa.
Thank you for your time.
Posted by One Third African (Member # 3735) on :
I would ask him what he makes of "Basal Eurasian" and whether he thinks that population first emerged in Africa or Arabia. And maybe whether it's relevant to ancient Egyptian and Nubian ancestry.
Posted by Forty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
From part 1
quote:I don't know if you watched the entire conversation but he spoke about back migration, M1 and mixing with Neanderthals in a way that would suggest that he thinks anything that isn't L and M1 mutated in Asia and back migrated. I'm not sure if he could even theorize how Abu Sir might be mostly indigenous.
It took someone going to my youtube channel and showing me their 23andme test before I really looked at how homogeneous and old branched many of these 'Out of Africa' haplogroups are in Africa.
If you could phrase that into a question.
For example, what I mean by homogeneous and old is how Y-Chromo Haplogroup J in Africa has a ratio of branches that are older than Asia's.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
I would ask him if "Basal Eurasian" which is a hypothetical population of which there are no human remains identified is a valid concept
In my opinion it's something Lazaridis pulled out of his hat
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
My question. Here Keita does a deep dive on the CODIS STR of the Amarnas. Why doesn't he ask for the release of the STR for the Abusir? This will settle the controversy without a doubt.
Follow up question if he dodges the question, ask another way - Has he tried to obtain the STR of the Abusir?
All Amarnas are SSA. To the right in the Table. It is impossible for the Abusir to be anything but SSA.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote: Sex-biased sampling (mtDNA) cannot recover population demography of the whole country unless the sample size is large enough and representative in terms of chronology, regional variation, “ethnicities” (including the foreign presence), class and geography. It suffers from many biases that can affect the assessment of the effective population size: population size changes, mutation bias, and natural selection
--Ancient Egyptian Genomes from northern Egypt: Further discussion Jean-Philippe Gourdine S.O.Y Keita Jean-Luc Gourdine Alain Anselin
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
SSA(STR) carrying "Eurasian" mtDNA will shatter the premise of "back-migration".
Let's see how he/they spins out of that one.
Didn't he attend Oxford?
But we already know SSA carry these mtDNA. Kenya, Uganda even some in Mozambique
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: My question. Here Keita does a deep dive on the CODIS STR of the Amarnas. Why doesn't he ask for the release of the STR for the Abusir? This will settle the controversy without a doubt.
Follow up question if he dodges the question, ask another way - Has he tried to obtain the STR of the Abusir?
All Amarnas are SSA. To the right in the Table. It is impossible for the Abusir to be anything but SSA.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Why doesn't he ask for the release of the STR for the Abusir?
without evidence you assume unreleased STRs as opposed to they decided to only test 3 mummies for STR
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Above your paygrade Lioness.
They did not release the STRs for the 3. They released a selective set of SNPs/AIM. NOT the Codis STRs. The regions where the CODIS STRs should be are deleted They were NOT included in the data set. .....for the 3 mummies. Why were these STRs removed before releasing to the public?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Why doesn't he ask for the release of the STR for the Abusir?
without evidence you assume unreleased STRs as opposed to they decided to only test 3 mummies for STR
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Quote:
Response to question/comment posted on ES. Some may have the same question here. ------
No! No! STR can be pulled from SNPS/GWS. This is what LobSTR, HipSTR etc does that. In fact no software is needed. The regions for the STR are GONE!!!! eg TPOX region 1493425 - 1493456 is gone. It does not matter if testing for STRs were done or not.
The regions are gone. ALL OF THEM!!!! ALL the regions are gone. Please don't mislead readers.
There are software that can pull the STR regions from genome released. They are NOT there.
There is no testing for STR needed. The STRs can be built "manually" if they were there.
There are software that can screen the SNP regions and pull and display the region.
As I explained before no software is needed. Download the genome of the Abusirs. go to CODIS regions in the table and count the alleles eg AATG. See how many times AATG shows up in the region. These are the number of repeats. From the number of repeats you will know if they are subSaharans. BUT you know what? the regions are gone!!!!
Hope you follow?!
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Keita Should know this. Here are the locations for the CODIS STRs.
They were removed from the 3 Abusir mummies
====
Quote: CODIS STR Repeats and location - template for LOBSTR
What are you looking at ? take for example TPOX. We know it is was removed from the Abusir JK488!! I haven’t manually done a check on every single CODIS STR but the few that I have done is missing. The Chromosome number is self explanatory. The region/location follows. The 4 and 8 represents the repeats on the sample test file I pulled from LobSTR. 4/8 …..from mommy and daddy. And of course the “name” of the CODIS STR.
Now...if you can manually look at the location we can do a physical count of the repeats ...no computer needed.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
In short. I confirmed by three different methods that the CODIS STRs were removed from the ABusir mummies before the dataset was uploaded.
1. STRaitRazor which is MSExcel VBA/Macro based pulled zero CODIS STRs 2. BAMAnalysis Kit via a VCF/Text conversion process showed the region for the TPOX and other STRs were missing 3. BEDTools showed no "Intersect" for COSDIS STRs. Ie Zero CODIS STRS
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
And if Keita tries to weasel out of it. Ask him to use Bedtools or any other software and pull the STRs himself.
Let us see him squirm......
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Quote
---
I will do a couple more Abusirs to confirm the CODIS data was removed deliberately If it was removed we can assume the result...they skewed the results by removing the CODIS STR data. Anyways I am a little embarrassed. I had the answer in front of me a few weeks ago and missed it. Here is the result...
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
To those who are interested. It is very easy to do.
download the BAM/VCF files for the 3.
VCF files are essentially Excel files.
Wait! But Keita should know this.
Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
^ 1 - Have you ever pressed the publishers on this and gotten a response? 2 - Have you run this data on other ancient genomes such as Natufian, MOTA, IAM, Taforalt?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Definitely. No response from VJ Schuenemann.
===== verena.schuenemann@iem.uzh.ch
Good Morning Professor V. Schünemann
I have a couple of questions I hope you can answer regarding the data for the Abusir mummies downloaded from the paper -
Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods VJ Schuenemann,Nature communications 8, 15694
1. It looks like the CODIS STRs were removed. Can you tell me why? 2. What were the CODIS STRs?
Thanks XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX Research BioInformatics
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: ^ 1 - Have you ever pressed the publishers on this and gotten a response? 2 - Have you run this data on other ancient genomes such as Natufian, MOTA, IAM, Taforalt?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
you sent that or you are afraid to? send it BCC (blind closed caption) to each of the authors that have their mail listed
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I sent that to the lead author Professor V. Schünemann last year. No response.
I am not afraid of anything Lioness. I know the game. I know the authors will never answer. They can't. Just as I know who are the frauds on this site.
Professor V. Schünemann knows these are SSA, that is why at the end of the paper she stated that AE further south may carry SSA ancestry and the Abusir may not reflect all of AE.
That statement alone is a waffling. She is anticipating she will be caught in the lie someday but for now she will spin it.
There is one Software I came across that may be used to resolve the issue using only SNP/AIM. It uses Linkage Disequilibrium(LD) of SNPs to infer geographic ancestry like STR. FrogAncestryCalc I haven't had time to play with the software.
FrogAncestryCalc: A standalone batch likelihood computation tool for ancestry inference panels catalogued in FROG-kb Haseena Rajeevan Usha Soundararajan Andrew J. Pakstis Kenneth K. Kidd Open AccessPublished:January 21, 2020DOI:https://doi.org/10.1016/j.fsigen.2020.102237
Highlights • FrogAncestryCalc is the stand-alone version of FROG-kb. • Simultaneously computes population likelihoods for multiple individuals. • Five Ancestry Inference (AI) panels are implemented. • Available for download from FROG-kb and GitHub. • FrogAncestryCalc is open source.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: you sent that or you are afraid to? send it BCC (blind closed caption) to each of the authors that have their mail listed
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] I sent that to the lead author Professor V. Schünemann last year. No response.
I told your ass. If you send to more than one author independently. sometimes one will answer
Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
4) Are you convinced that there is a white crown on the Qustul Incense burner and how does Nubia relate to Egypt during the A-Group?
Might be better to ask how Ta-Seti related to other major centers like Nekhen and Abydos. Ta-Seti was absorbed as the first nome of Egypt (on what terms idk) and so to call it "Nubia" like the people weren't also proto Egyptians could be misleading.
Speaking of which I'd like to know his thoughts on the use of the term or concept of "Nubia" as something that separates Egypt from both it's neighbors and sub populations within it.
-I am wondering if any of Keita's seen any unpublished data on Egyptian DNA and if it in any way shapes his opinions on AE and genetic affinities.
-Earlier he brought up the fact that Asiatic weavers were living nearby Abusir el-Meleq. Does he have any additional information on the site that would emphasize the need to have a better contextual understanding of genetic data before we arrive to any conclusions?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ase:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb]
4) Are you convinced that there is a white crown on the Qustul Incense burner and how does Nubia relate to Egypt during the A-Group?
Might be better to ask how Ta-Seti related to other major centers like Nekhen and Abydos. Ta-Seti was absorbed as the first nome of Egypt (on what terms idk) and so to call it "Nubia" like the people weren't also proto Egyptians could be misleading.
the question is quote from the Oriental Institute:
How did Nubia relate to Egypt during the A-Group? ____________________
Dr. Bruce Williams is the researcher from the Oriental Institute who excavated the incense burner
quote:Originally posted by Ase:
Speaking of which I'd like to know his thoughts on the use of the term or concept of "Nubia" as something that separates Egypt from both it's neighbors and sub populations within it.
question 10 (listed in same post)
Nubia was outside of Egypt's political territory
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
If Keita is reading this. Don't be surprised if he cancels this webinar thing. He doesn't want to be jammed up. lol!
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Ta Seti nome niwt (of Egypt) and Ta Seti nation xAst (of Sudan) were two separate entities.
Ppl don't like to hear it but the First Cataract was a border.
Before the unification of the Two Lands, Wawat ruled up to Nag el Hasaya in what would later be the 2nd nome of Upper Egypt (Heru's Throne) to the immediate north of the 1st nome TaSeti.nwt. So we see there was intense rivalry between TaWy and TaSeti.x3st since predynastic times.
quote:Originally posted November 13, 2007 by alTakruri:
I looked into Herodotus' statement in full context and found he did no more than relate what the Oracle of Ammon stated as the border of Egypt.
quote:My judgment as to the extent of Egypt is confirmed by an oracle delivered at the shrine of Ammon, of which I had no knowledge at all until after I had formed my opinion. It happened that the people of the cities Marea and Apis, who live in the part of Egypt that borders on Libya, took a dislike to the religious usages of the country concerning sacrificial animals, and wished no longer to be restricted from eating the flesh of cows. So, as they believed themselves to be Libyans and not Egyptians, they sent to the shrine to say that, having nothing in common with the Egyptians, neither inhabiting the Delta nor using the Egyptian tongue, they claimed to be allowed to eat whatever they pleased. Their request, however, was refused by the god, who declared in reply that Egypt was the entire tract of country which the Nile overspreads and irrigates, and the Egyptians were the people who lived below Elephantine, and drank the waters of that river. (link)
So said the oracle.
So we have it from Egyptians themselves that Aswan/Elephantine was the border as per 6th Dynasty's Weny Governor of the South and a 28th Dynasty unknown priest serving the Oracle of Ammon.
Also one should be careful not to confuse the nome Ta Seti which ended at Aswan/Elephantine with the independent polity Ta Seti which, in dynastic times, was relegated to upriver of Aswan/Elephantine and dubbed Wawat.
quote:Originally posted by Sundiata: ... Herodotus, who asserted that Egyptians are all those who drink water below Elephantine.
Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
NVM my initial response, I'll read the above first
Another Question: What review of the DNA Tribes algorithm exists? I ask because it sounded like Keita's team refers to it in the paper: Ancient Egyptian Genomes from northern Egypt: Further discussion." Specifically when discussing an Infra Saharan component of the Egyptians that traces to the Great Lakes.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ase: NVM my initial response, I'll read the above first
Another Question: What review of the DNA Tribes algorithm exists? I ask because it sounded like Keita's team refers to it in the paper: Ancient Egyptian Genomes from northern Egypt: Further discussion." Specifically when discussing an Infra Saharan component of the Egyptians that traces to the Great Lakes.
The article doesn't use the term "Infra Saharan". DNA tribes was a private testing company using their own proprietary Match Liklihood system, their data is not peer reviewed and can't be used as an academic reference
Here they mention "supra-Saharan"
quote:
Ancient Egyptian Genomes from northern Egypt: Further discussionJean-Philippe Gourdine1,4, S.O.Y Keita2,4, Jean-Luc Gourdine3 and Alain Anselin4
On the Definition of African Schuenemann et al.1 seem to implicitly suggest that only SSA equals Africa and that there are no interconnections between the various regions of Africa not rooted in the slave trade, a favorite trope. It has to be noted too that that in the Islamic armies that entered Egypt that there were a notable number of eastern Africans. It is not clear why there is an emphasis on ‘sub-Saharan’ when no Saharan or supra-Saharan population4 samples--empirical or modelled are considered; furthermore, there is no one way to be“sub-Saharan.” In this study northern tropical Africans, such as lower and upper Nubiansand adjacent southern Egyptians and Saharans were not included as comparison groups,as noted by the authors themselves....
It is important to note that “SSA” influence may not bedue to a slave trade, an overdone explanation; the green Sahara is to be considered asEgypt is actually in the eastern Sahara. SSA affinities of modern Egyptians from AbusirEl-Meleq might be attributed to ancient early settlers as there is a notable frequency ofthe “Bushmen canine”- deemed a SSA trait in Predynastic samples dating to 4,000 BC(9) from Adaima, Upper Egypt.
Before the unification of the Two Lands, Wawat ruled up to Nag el Hasaya in what would later be the 2nd nome of Upper Egypt (Heru's Throne) to the immediate north of the 1st nome TaSeti.nwt. So we see there was intense rivalry between TaWy and TaSeti.x3st since predynastic times.
quote:Originally posted November 13, 2007 by alTakruri:
I looked into Herodotus' statement in full context and found he did no more than relate what the Oracle of Ammon stated as the border of Egypt.
quote:My judgment as to the extent of Egypt is confirmed by an oracle delivered at the shrine of Ammon, of which I had no knowledge at all until after I had formed my opinion. It happened that the people of the cities Marea and Apis, who live in the part of Egypt that borders on Libya, took a dislike to the religious usages of the country concerning sacrificial animals, and wished no longer to be restricted from eating the flesh of cows. So, as they believed themselves to be Libyans and not Egyptians, they sent to the shrine to say that, having nothing in common with the Egyptians, neither inhabiting the Delta nor using the Egyptian tongue, they claimed to be allowed to eat whatever they pleased. Their request, however, was refused by the god, who declared in reply that Egypt was the entire tract of country which the Nile overspreads and irrigates, and the Egyptians were the people who lived below Elephantine, and drank the waters of that river. (link)
So said the oracle.
So we have it from Egyptians themselves that Aswan/Elephantine was the border as per 6th Dynasty's Weny Governor of the South and a 28th Dynasty unknown priest serving the Oracle of Ammon.
Also one should be careful not to confuse the nome Ta Seti which ended at Aswan/Elephantine with the independent polity Ta Seti which, in dynastic times, was relegated to upriver of Aswan/Elephantine and dubbed Wawat.
quote:Originally posted by Sundiata: ... Herodotus, who asserted that Egyptians are all those who drink water below Elephantine.
True, but as many Egyptologists have also noted, much of the population directly south of Aswan was absored into the dynastic kingdom after Unification and that area immediately to the south was somewhat depopulated for a time hence the jump from "A-Group" to "C-Group". But then again there is a lot of stuff underneath Lake Nasser as well and many temples that were rescued show this area was an active part of the Dynastic culture as well. And who knows what else is submerged under the lake. And Aswan is home to many tombs of high power officials from the Dynastic era, with many more likely submerged.
From the AE view of the world their maps had the South at the top and everything else at the bottom.
quote: Aswan is the ancient city of Swenett, later known as Syene, which in antiquity was the frontier town of Ancient Egypt facing the south. Swenett is supposed to have derived its name from an Egyptian goddess with the same name. This goddess later was identified as Eileithyia by the Greeks and Lucina by the Romans during their occupation of Ancient Egypt because of the similar association of their goddesses with childbirth, and of which the import is "the opener". The ancient name of the city also is said to be derived from the Egyptian symbol for "trade", or "market".
Because the Ancient Egyptians oriented themselves toward the origin of the life-giving waters of the Nile in the south, and as Swenett was the southernmost town in the country, Egypt always was conceived to "open" or begin at Swenett. The city stood upon a peninsula on the right (east) bank of the Nile, immediately below (and north of) the first cataract of the flowing waters, which extend to it from Philae. Navigation to the delta was possible from this location without encountering a barrier.
And after the Old Kingdom the dynastic kingdom border moved further South. This started in the late Old Kingdom and into the Middle Kingdom with the fortresses of Buhen, Shalfak, Urontari, etc and every since then was pretty much South of Abu Simbel, much as the current border is today.
quote: Archaeologists from the University of Chicago have discovered a gold processing center along the middle Nile, an installation that produced the precious metal sometime between 2000 and 1500 B.C. The center, along with a cemetery they discovered, documents extensive control by the first sub-Saharan kingdom, the kingdom of Kush.
Be that as it may, we know that there was much blood flow from further South during these eras, especially from the Middle Kingdom onwards. And during the New Kingdom Kush was a defacto part of the Dynastic Kingdom and the Ram headed deity said to be enthroned in Jebel Barkal which is way south of Aswan. And from that time to the late period the Southern parts of the country had their own defacto rulers in the form of the high priests of Amun who were associated with the Southern territories as an extension of their power base.
Not to mention the fact that many of the chief dieties besides Amun originated in the South, such as Hathor, Bes, Nekhbet, Khnum, Amun, Satis, Set, etc.....
The point here is that the Ancient Egyptians and their neighbors to the south should cluster together first as a Nilotic sub component before any population anywhere else. And this is the basic fundamental genetic relationship that should exist in any kind of DNA research. Not relationships to "Eurasia" or West Africa or Central Africa, which are more distant than the core Nile Valley base genetic profile. But they don't WANT to find that base profile and this is the problem. They want to do everything they can to avoid that. Someone like Keita who is not following any "agendas" should be able to show those foundational relationships.
Key to this is that Upper Egypt and Northern Sudan are "Saharan" Nile Valley regions not "Sub Saharan". The Sahara extends all the way down past Jebel Barkal. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sahara_satellite_hires.jpg Posted by One Third African (Member # 3735) on :
Since the livestream is about to end, I have to say I was disappointed. It was simply a rehash of what we knew already. Keita never even got around to answering my questions about "Basal Eurasian" in the chat (though I think this is because Asar as the streamer didn't read them out loud to him).
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
1hr 6 min
He makes my point(Abusir). That if they had sampled further south. The genetic profile may be different.
1hr 7min. Ha! HA! He wont give up the "service women" thingy.....concubines.
Good he mentions "black skin white skull". See my thread on ESR. 1hr 1min
1hr 15min - Keita agrees with me. That the homogeneity of groups "as the starting point" is ridiculous. Which is what the frequency of SNPs mimics "origin". I said for the longest time that premise is absolutely crazy. The human species is a continuum based upon Isolation By Distance
1hr 16min - I agree with him. Modern genecists "spin" to align with their point of view.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I like the new term "Africasia".....
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
What's that suppose to be? A combination of Africa and Asia?
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
Greetings. Thank you for watching and for your commentary. I would like to state that we must remember that just because you personally may be privy to certain information, doesn't mean others are. And secondly, because of his time schedule, we didn't have an opportunity to address all questions. So I didn't get to your Basal Eurasian questions, which is easily answerable via a google search. Note, that on the original post was given the topics that would be discussed. The program stayed true to the original posting.
quote:Originally posted by One Third African: Since the livestream is about to end, I have to say I was disappointed. It was simply a rehash of what we knew already. Keita never even got around to answering my questions about "Basal Eurasian" in the chat (though I think this is because Asar as the streamer didn't read them out loud to him).
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
I believe that to be so. What he is saying is that these labels are arbitrary and one could just as easily say Africasia, which would include Africa and the "Middle-East" and it would be just as valid of a construct. In other words, you flip the orientation by stressing the African first. There is no a priori reason why one should be thinking of Southwest Asia as "Eurasia." One can easily argue that the middle east and mesopotamia are just extensions of, or part of the main African complex.
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: What's that suppose to be? A combination of Africa and Asia?
2014 This work attempts to reconstruct the Proto-Afrasian (Afroasiatic) phonological system, laying out the regular sound correspondences upon which that reconstruction is based. The core of the book contains a set of examples from the Afrasian daughter languages designed to illustrate those sound correspondences.
May 21, 2020 release
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
The problem with Bomhard's book is that it makes the assumption that Afro-Asiatic is a reality without any proof of concept via the comparative method. The proper procedure is to establish the relationship of families via the comparative method, establish the sound laws, reconstruct the parent language so that one can establish the rules for the inclusion and exclusion of the language family, and then test other languages upon that data and refine the model. This was never done. And thus, he starts off with a faulty premise and a wide-ranging semantic spectrum, which renders his results unuseable.
2014 This work attempts to reconstruct the Proto-Afrasian (Afroasiatic) phonological system, laying out the regular sound correspondences upon which that reconstruction is based. The core of the book contains a set of examples from the Afrasian daughter languages designed to illustrate those sound correspondences.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: The problem with Bomhard's book is that it makes the assumption that Afro-Asiatic is a reality without any proof of concept via the comparative method.
What is incorrect about what is called Afro-Asiatic apart from the name?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Where have I heard this before? He! He! HE!
"One can easily argue that the middle east and mesopotamia are just extensions of, or part of the main African complex"
I will start using it. Africasia
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
I stated it in the post you quoted. You will have to take an introductory course on comparative linguistics to begin to fully understand why what I said is important.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: The problem with Bomhard's book is that it makes the assumption that Afro-Asiatic is a reality without any proof of concept via the comparative method.
What is incorrect about what is called Afro-Asiatic apart from the name?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Africasia implies Africa to Eurasia. Eurasia implies to Africa.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: I stated it in the post you quoted. You will have to take an introductory course on comparative linguistics to begin to fully understand why what I said is important.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: The problem with Bomhard's book is that it makes the assumption that Afro-Asiatic is a reality without any proof of concept via the comparative method.
What is incorrect about what is called Afro-Asiatic apart from the name?
.
True or false some of the below Semitic languages do not belong on the chart above. They are not part of the same family
.
.
.
Also please post a chart of the language family you think better represents the family of which Egyptian is a part of, thanks
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Africasia implies Africa to Eurasia. Eurasia implies to Africa.
no "Eurasia" does not apply to Africa at all. It means Europe + Asia
Asar has a different concept and terms
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
Take an introductory course on how to do comparative linguistics. Then you'll know enough to ask meaningful questions. We've been through this already, and I don't like to repeat myself.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: I stated it in the post you quoted. You will have to take an introductory course on comparative linguistics to begin to fully understand why what I said is important.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: The problem with Bomhard's book is that it makes the assumption that Afro-Asiatic is a reality without any proof of concept via the comparative method.
What is incorrect about what is called Afro-Asiatic apart from the name?
.
True or false some of the below Semitic languages do not belong on the chart above. They are not part of the same family
.
.
.
Also please post a chart of the language family you think better represents the family of which Egyptian is a part of, thanks
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
[/QB]
.
.
Many studied in comparative linguistics would not agree that Semitic is not part of this family
quote: Now no one who has worked at Egyptian can possibly doubt that there are many Semitic words in the language, or that many of the pronouns, some of the numbers, and some of its grammatical forms resemble those found in the Semitic languages. But even admitting all the similarities that Erman [Grapow] has claimed, it is still impossible for me to believe that Egyptian is a Semitic language fundamentally.
--Obenga, from the French
If so but in looking at Semitic that doesn't necessarily mean Semitic is not part of the same language family as Egyptian as is suggested by this chart, it could be descendant not an ancestor but it is left out of this chart. Was the baby thrown out with the bath water?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
SMH. Not Asar...Keita
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Africasia implies Africa to Eurasia. Eurasia implies to Africa.
no "Eurasia" does not apply to Africa at all it means Europe + Asia
Asar has a different concept and terms
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ase: Another Question: What review of the DNA Tribes algorithm exists? I ask because it sounded like Keita's team refers to it in the paper: Ancient Egyptian Genomes from northern Egypt: Further discussion." Specifically when discussing an Infra Saharan component of the Egyptians that traces to the Great Lakes.
.
Since they overhype a term sub-Sahara, intra-Sahara should come into use and supra-Sahara needs more mileage too
What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, eh?
Early-Mid Holocene Intra-Saharans indeed were largely ex-Lakers with many former Mid Nile Basin folk plus some used-to-be supra-Saharans.
The former being Sudano-Saharan the latter being Gafsian (Capsian).
True DNAtribes is scientifically unquotable but I replicated/vetted their conclusions using popStr and NE Afr 'CODIS' tables.
Believe me, it wasn't as simple as plopping figures into the PopAffiliator for percentages that don't yield precise geo-ethnicities.
Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
Since my question was cut in half due to time it seems Dr. Keita got an incorrect impression of what i was trying to ask therefore the whole discussion of "Africasia" really didnt relate.
The "Eurasia" in the context i was speaking of was brought up to only to highlight their abundance of ancient samples and how they were able to do a better job at reconstructing their ancient population history better than practically anyone else on the globe:
quote: The genetic community has seen a lot of ancient Eurasian samples over the past few years. There are multiple lines of evidnce showing genetic turnovers in Eurasia. Differnet levels of genetic substructure some of which are quite widespread connect dislocated populations like "Basal Eurasian" and "ANE". While i am not too versed in European genetics it would seem that populations from the Neolithic Near East and Eurasian Steppes were some of the most sucessful latecomers in terms of Uni-Parental DNA, autosomal data and especially language. There have also been some surprises, one being that the main male Haplogroup in Europeans (R), derives from a subclade of the South East Asian lineaege of K2b2.
Take western Europeans: A combination of a WHG Base, with heavy Anatolia and Iran neolithic influences, with later Steppe Pastoral ancestry from their lingusitic forebearers and a dash of African....then analyze these layers with the wide ranging conepts of ANE and basal Eurasian. This has not been done for Africa. Instead they looking at us like the whole continent is Mbuti, Yoruba, and Dzudzuana. The studies we get are woefully inadequate. The East African pastoralist paper is so bad you would think they are analyzing contemporary samples. I was looking for the inside scoop. How he would hypothesize the genetic affinity of the Pastoral Neolithic in Afica, Wavy line potters, Proto Niger kordofanians, Auqialithic etc.....
Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
DOUG SAID:
And during the New Kingdom Kush was a defacto part of the Dynastic Kingdom
On what basis do you say this? Kemet dominated large parts of the area known as "Nubia" by some in NK, but Kingdom of Kush was an independent entity in its own right, and indeed, Kush almost overran Egypt centuries before the so-called 25th "kushite" Dynasty.
the Ram headed deity said to be enthroned in Jebel Barkal which is way south of Aswan. And from that time to the late period the Southern parts of the country had their own defacto rulers in the form of the high priests of Amun who were associated with the Southern territories as an extension of their power base.Not to mention the fact that many of the chief dieties besides Amun originated in the South, such as Hathor, Bes, Nekhbet, Khnum, Amun, Satis, Set, etc.....
Indeed. This shows that the southern regions still retained important influence.
The point here is that the Ancient Egyptians and their neighbors to the south should cluster together first as a Nilotic sub component before any population anywhere else. And this is the basic fundamental genetic relationship that should exist in any kind of DNA research. Not relationships to "Eurasia" or West Africa or Central Africa, which are more distant than the core Nile Valley base genetic profile. But they don't WANT to find that base profile and this is the problem. They want to do everything they can to avoid that. Someone like Keita who is not following any "agendas" should be able to show those foundational relationships.
They do cluster together first as has been shown by various studies, but to be sure the desire in some quarters is that "EUrasian" linkages be prominent. There are such linkages of course, as KEmet could not be isolated from Palestine and the Mediterranean over the centuries. But Keita has already shown the primary relationship time and again.
Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: Greetings. Thank you for watching and for your commentary. I would like to state that we must remember that just because you personally may be privy to certain information, doesn't mean others are. And secondly, because of his time schedule, we didn't have an opportunity to address all questions. So I didn't get to your Basal Eurasian questions, which is easily answerable via a google search. Note, that on the original post was given the topics that would be discussed. The program stayed true to the original posting.
Yes. Any notion that Dr. Keita would address technical minutiae from certain narrow studies (some of which he has already addressed before), in a relatively short discussion, with other people in attendance still waiting to get in their questions, seems somewhat unrealistic. The field is a large one, covering everything from general Egyptian history, to DNA sampling, to stereotypes and "racial science", to even effects on president day culture as evidenced by his reference to the soul singer and his own roots in the first interview. He works on a broad palette of legitimate topics, not a narrow one. The interview was about what would have been expected.
Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: And if Keita tries to weasel out of it. Ask him to use Bedtools or any other software and pull the STRs himself.
Let us see him squirm......
Bruh, Dr. Keita does not have to "weasel" out of anything. LOL.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Definitely. No response from VJ Schuenemann.
===== verena.schuenemann@iem.uzh.ch
Good Morning Professor V. Schünemann
I have a couple of questions I hope you can answer regarding the data for the Abusir mummies downloaded from the paper -
Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods VJ Schuenemann,Nature communications 8, 15694
1. It looks like the CODIS STRs were removed. Can you tell me why? 2. What were the CODIS STRs?
Thanks XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX Research BioInformatics
If you are unable to get Schuemann, to send you a reply (I commend you by the way for asking), how do you expect Dr Keita to have all these answers on technical minutiae in a relatively brief interview, with several people queuing up to have their own set of questions answered?
Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
Basal Eurasian is hypothesized to be 80 thousand years old. Older than OOA, so its African.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
At least we agree on one thing.
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: Basal Eurasian is hypothesized to be 80 thousand years old. Older than OOA, so its African.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
So L. Pereira has jumped in on this discussion.(this came out today. April-28-2020)
quote from Keita paper
"chromosome haplogroup E1b1a, an old African lineage7 . Our analysis of STRs from Amarna and Ramesside royal mummies with popAffiliator18 based on the same published data5,6 indicates a 41.7% to 93.9% probability of SSA affinities (see Table 1); most of the individuals had a greater probability of affiliation with “SSA” which is not the only way to be “African” a point worth repeating."
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
How did this paper just come out today when the response was an immediate one two or three years ago? I posted the entire response in the first Shomarka Keita interview thread, which made me question why you were asking malformed questions on issues which he addressed fully in the paper?
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: So L. Pereira has jumped in on this discussion.(this came out today. April-28-2020)
quote from Keita paper
"chromosome haplogroup E1b1a, an old African lineage7 . Our analysis of STRs from Amarna and Ramesside royal mummies with popAffiliator18 based on the same published data5,6 indicates a 41.7% to 93.9% probability of SSA affinities (see Table 1); most of the individuals had a greater probability of affiliation with “SSA” which is not the only way to be “African” a point worth repeating."
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
You don't understand how this works do you? It just hit google scholar citations. In fact at least not only Periera cited it. Verena J. Schuenemann, Barbujani Guido, and others cited it.
Man you are a little slow. These citations came out Today 28APRIL2020.
on another note. Do you know why Keita cut you short in that 2nd interview?. tic! toc!
In other words Keita's challenge if not recently noticed by Verena S is noticed now. She put it out there.
SMH - Sometimes I think I am teaching Calculus to 1st graders.
We know Periera reads ES(see my thread) I would not be surprised this thread is being read by Verena and others.....even Keita.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: How did this paper just come out today when the response was an immediate one two or three years ago? I posted the entire response in the first Shomarka Keita interview thread, which made me question why you were asking malformed questions on issues which he addressed fully in the paper?
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: So L. Pereira has jumped in on this discussion.(this came out today. April-28-2020)
quote from Keita paper
"chromosome haplogroup E1b1a, an old African lineage7 . Our analysis of STRs from Amarna and Ramesside royal mummies with popAffiliator18 based on the same published data5,6 indicates a 41.7% to 93.9% probability of SSA affinities (see Table 1); most of the individuals had a greater probability of affiliation with “SSA” which is not the only way to be “African” a point worth repeating."
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Just checked my email. I took Lioness advice and did a BCC. I got a few responses. Maybe they are reading this thread. Anyways. One response from Haak
----
Dear XXXXXX,
thanks for getting in touch.
The data reported in Schuenemann et al. is capture data of 1.2M SNPs across the genome (see Mathieson et al. 2015, Nature), which does not include any CODIS STR regions.
Even if it were shotgun genome data, I’d be interested to hear how one can reliably type STR alleles from short reads such as those derived from ancient DNA with an average length of ~50 bp. I’m aware that TPOX is one of the shorter repeat regions, but it would still require several reads of > 70-80bp to cover the region and confidently call alleles.
I hope this helps.
With best regards Wolfgang
Dr Wolfgang Haak Group leader Molecular Anthropology Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History Kahlaische Strasse 10 07745 Jena Germany haak@shh.mpg.de https://wolfganghaak.com/ +49 (0) 3641 686 642
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Quote
---
I will do a couple more Abusirs to confirm the CODIS data was removed deliberately If it was removed we can assume the result...they skewed the results by removing the CODIS STR data. Anyways I am a little embarrassed. I had the answer in front of me a few weeks ago and missed it. Here is the result...
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
But there are several problems with his response. Can anyone tell me what?. I did send the spreadsheet above showing TPOX is missing which he agrees.
But can anyone tell me what is wrong with his explanation? You can tell there is arrogance in his tone. As Marcus Garvey said...."their arrogance is very shallow". I can challenge him and expose him. Buuuuut!
I would not disrespect or berate him but you know these guys are not really who we think they are.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
BTW - In several of the responses I got back, they copied Haak. Haak is the man pulling the strings not Verena. She never responded.
I remembered several years back I questioned Eva Fernandez on her thesis on 50% African Uniparental markers in ancient Iberia after a few responses she dropped me like a hot frying pan. These researchers know they are lying.
Keita knows the game also. So does Haak.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
You can tell he is annoyed I discovered the CODIS STRs are missing....tsk! tsk! What should my followup question be?
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
I'm very familiar with google scholar and how this works. What makes you slow is your inability to comprehend basic things, which is why you keep harping, for example, on Keita in an interview mentioning Weavers from the middle east as ONE POSSIBLE reason for foreign DNA in Egypt, when it was pointed out to you in the paper a fuller response. Thus:
Keita, Gourdine, Anselin
quote: 2) Historiography and misinterpretation
The authors do not consider explanations based on historical narrative, although they present historical information. NE input in AE could also be explained by old mercantile relationships with Lower Egypt (e.g. Maadi-Buto complex ~4,000 BC3), Egyptianized Asiatic rulers and migrants (e.g. Hyksos ~1,650 BC), NE prisoners of war (e.g. from Thutmose III’s military campaign in NE ~ 1,490 BC), from diplomatic marriages2 (e.g. Amenhotep III and Mitanni princess, Gilukhipa ~ 1,380 BC), etc.
As we can see here, Keita et al. are providing a wide range of explanations for the presence of "Asiatics" in Kemet.
You keep making issues with Keita that he doesn't have.
ANd to the second question, he had plans that day. So we got him for as long as we could get him. He'll be back and we are also planning his own online lectures for everyone else who is interested.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You don't understand how this works do you? It just hit google scholar citations. In fact at least not only Periera cited it. Verena J. Schuenemann, Barbujani Guido, and others cited it.
Man you are a little slow. These citations came out Today 28APRIL2020.
on another note. Do you know why Keita cut you short in that 2nd interview?. tic! toc!
In other words Keita's challenge if not recently noticed by Verena S is noticed now. She put it out there.
SMH - Sometimes I think I am teaching Calculus to 1st graders.
We know Periera reads ES(see my thread) I would not be surprised this thread is being read by Verena and others.....even Keita.
Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You can tell he is annoyed I discovered the CODIS STRs are missing....tsk! tsk! What should my followup question be?
Just like Christopher Columbus "discovered" the Americas, huh?
Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
@xyyman - have you searched for Codis makers in any other ancient DNA data from Africa, Middle East or Europe?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
No. My obsession was the Abusir dataset because I know it is impossible for the Abusir NOT to be SSA if the Amarnas are SSA.
The 3 Genetic software tools I used confirmed the CODIS STRs were missing. So I switched to finding tools that can pull geographic affinity using ONLY SNPs. I am stuck on MALDER. But as I said in other threads there are a few tools coming out that can do the job. I just don't have the time.
But based upon ADMIXTURE I got this...
yes. JK2134 is different from the other 2 but that may be because of origins from a different geographic region in SSA.
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: @xyyman - have you searched for Codis makers in any other ancient DNA data from Africa, Middle East or Europe?
Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
Oh, and yeah when looking at AE codis markers.....im telling you they are exinct. They are extinct in the same way the Eastern Saharan ancestors of Horners and Egyptians and Great lakes Africans are extinct.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
?? You lost me. What is extinct?
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: Oh, and yeah when looking at AE codis markers.....im telling you they are exinct. They are extinct in the same way the Eastern Saharan ancestors of Horners and Egyptians and Great lakes Africans are extinct.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I am going to guess what you are asking. It doesn't make sense and that shows you don't understand this stuff. Like EM ...the fraudster.
I hope you are NOT speculating that CODIS STR goes extinct? What an idiotic comment. I am stumped.
Haak just said he did not pull the CODIS STR because of the technology used that can not pull short regions. He is lying but what are you asking? I will explain why he is lying shortly. But to your question.
CODIS STRs do not go "extinct". The CODIS STR of the Amarna did not go "extinct". lol! Man! Scratching my head. You have no clue do you?
To the newbies let me explain how this works. All humans past and present carry CODIS STRs. However the repeats (alleles) of STR region changes but only slightly from geographic region to other Geographic Regions.
Example not all SSA will have the same STR profile but they will be more similar to other distant geographic regions....eg Native Americans.
Europeans are very close to Africans because regardless how different you think they are Europe is geographically close to Africa.
eg
Genetic structure of north-west Africa revealed by STR analysis
Elena Bosch1, Francesc Calafell1, Anna P´erez-Lezaun1, Jordi Clarim ´on1, David Comas1,
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Yes. I used AFRICASIANS!!!! He! He! HE! Notice the CODIS STR follow a geographic cline.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I am going to give Keita credit for that one....Africasia
Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I am going to guess what you are asking. It doesn't make sense and that shows you you don't understand this stuff. Like EM ...the fraudster.
I hope you are NOT speculating that CODIS STR goes extinct? What an idiotic comment. I am stumped.
Haak just said he did not pull the CODIS STR because of the technology used that can not pull short regions. He is lying but what are you asking? I will explain why he is lying shortly. But to your question.
CODIS STRs do not go "extinct". The CODIS STR of the Amarna did not go "extinct". lol! Man! Scratching my head. You have no clue do you?
T the newbies let me explain how this works. All humans past and present carry CODIS STRs. However the repeats (alleles) of STR region changes but only slightly from geographic region to other Geographic Regions.
Example not all SSA will have the same STR profile but they will be more similar to other distant geographic regions....eg Native Americans.
Europeans are very close to Africans because regardless how different you think they are Europe is geographically close to Africa.
eg
placeholder
1 - This is the second time you have dodged my question of whether you have seached from STR Codis markers in OTHER anceint remains. If yes what are the findings. If not...why not?
2 - Codis markers themselves have not gone extinct. The STR "PROFILE" has so its almost useless looking for this profile in modern populations. Written years ago and I still stand by this:
quote: Originally posted by beyoku:
Look at the MLI scores. King Tut has the Highest score of 1519. The other scores have a AVERAGE that ranges from 326 to 14 among Sub Saharan Africans. A contemporary African American has Top MLI score with Sub Saharan Africans specific countries to the tune of 17 MILLION! This same African American sample will have an MLI score with Arabians that is twice that of these mummies average with there HIGHEST Sub Saharan group: Southern Africa. The Horn of Africa and Sahel MLI scores of the mummies top out at around 15. Compare this with this same African American MLI score with Slavic @ 11 and North Western Europeans at 13.8. Matter of fact with an MLI score 30,46,52 and 68 this African American has a genome that is twice as likely to be found in Iberian, 3 to 4 times likely to be found in Greece, and 5 times more likely to be found Mexican Mestizos than any of these mummy genomes are to be found in the Sahel or the Horn of Africa.
Lets move to Europeans and their MLI scores. This "White American" has a top match MLI score with North Western Europe at 1.4 Million. With Arabia at 5800 and a Horn of Africa MLI score of 675. Take 675 score and compare that to all the mummy scores. This European has an MLI score that is twice as likely to be found in Ethiopia than the average of all these mummies in Southern Africa.
Yall been harping on this shit for almost 10 years and you need to quit it. This proile as i said a LONG time ago could be representative of their eastern saharan pastoral ancestors.....and somewhat similar to East African pastoralist ancient DNA.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
In the words of the Oracle...I can see why she likes you, "not too bright though".
1. was answered 2. no idea what you on about. You talked about STRs going extinct. I am saying STR do NOT go extinct. Repeats will change over time....but we talking 100's to 1000's of years.
quote:Originally posted by beyoku:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I am going to guess what you are asking. It doesn't make sense and that shows you you don't understand this stuff. Like EM ...the fraudster.
I hope you are NOT speculating that CODIS STR goes extinct? What an idiotic comment. I am stumped.
Haak just said he did not pull the CODIS STR because of the technology used that can not pull short regions. He is lying but what are you asking? I will explain why he is lying shortly. But to your question.
CODIS STRs do not go "extinct". The CODIS STR of the Amarna did not go "extinct". lol! Man! Scratching my head. You have no clue do you?
T the newbies let me explain how this works. All humans past and present carry CODIS STRs. However the repeats (alleles) of STR region changes but only slightly from geographic region to other Geographic Regions.
Example not all SSA will have the same STR profile but they will be more similar to other distant geographic regions....eg Native Americans.
Europeans are very close to Africans because regardless how different you think they are Europe is geographically close to Africa.
eg
placeholder
1 - This is the second time you have dodged my question of whether you have seached from STR Codis markers in OTHER anceint remains. If yes what are the findings. If not...why not?
2 - Codis markers themselves have not gone extinct. The STR "PROFILE" has so its almost useless looking for this profile in modern populations. Written years ago and I still stand by this:
quote: Originally posted by beyoku:
Look at the MLI scores. King Tut has the Highest score of 1519. The other scores have a AVERAGE that ranges from 326 to 14 among Sub Saharan Africans. A contemporary African American has Top MLI score with Sub Saharan Africans specific countries to the tune of 17 MILLION! This same African American sample will have an MLI score with Arabians that is twice that of these mummies average with there HIGHEST Sub Saharan group: Southern Africa. The Horn of Africa and Sahel MLI scores of the mummies top out at around 15. Compare this with this same African American MLI score with Slavic @ 11 and North Western Europeans at 13.8. Matter of fact with an MLI score 30,46,52 and 68 this African American has a genome that is twice as likely to be found in Iberian, 3 to 4 times likely to be found in Greece, and 5 times more likely to be found Mexican Mestizos than any of these mummy genomes are to be found in the Sahel or the Horn of Africa.
Lets move to Europeans and their MLI scores. This "White American" has a top match MLI score with North Western Europe at 1.4 Million. With Arabia at 5800 and a Horn of Africa MLI score of 675. Take 675 score and compare that to all the mummy scores. This European has an MLI score that is twice as likely to be found in Ethiopia than the average of all these mummies in Southern Africa.
Yall been harping on this shit for almost 10 years and you need to quit it. This proile as i said a LONG time ago could be representative of their eastern saharan pastoral ancestors.....and somewhat similar to East African pastoralist ancient DNA.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
xyyman how are you ever going to get credit for your groundbreaking research as "xyyman? How can S.O.Y. Keita use "xyyman" as a reference? Doesn't there have to be a real name put on to this?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
"Lioness" can take credit......
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: xyyman how are you ever going to get credit for your groundbreaking research as "xyyman? How can S.O.Y. Keita use "xyyman" as a reference? Doesn't there have to be a real name put on to this?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
That's what happens when one confuses proprietary MLI scores thinking they're the sixteen CODIS STR allele raw data repeats.
proved Upper Egypt and Sudan carries Thuya's exact profile as in Pusch's report in JAMA that Hawass claimed to author.
Sudan has 6 out of 8 complete locus matches, per available data, and a total of 13 of Ramses' 16 alleles.
11 of Amenophis' 16 alleles show up in Somalia, 10 in Upper Egypt and Sudan. 13 of his alleles are in Africa spread out amongst NE Afrs, Rainforesters, and San.
Europe has 6 and Africa has 5 of Yuya's 8 loci, each having 13 of his 16 alleles. Only 2 of his alleles were missing from the global data and one allele had no data.
And this was done not long after the Amarnas and the Ramses data was published in peer reviewed journals.
No one posting here is more than an informed layman at best. No one here is a professional whose money earning career/livelihood is in population genetics/genomics. Stop fronting. Where are you published? What association are you registered with? What conferences lists you on their agenda/itinerary/schedule?
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova: DOUG SAID:
And during the New Kingdom Kush was a defacto part of the Dynastic Kingdom
On what basis do you say this? Kemet dominated large parts of the area known as "Nubia" by some in NK, but Kingdom of Kush was an independent entity in its own right, and indeed, Kush almost overran Egypt centuries before the so-called 25th "kushite" Dynasty.
the Ram headed deity said to be enthroned in Jebel Barkal which is way south of Aswan. And from that time to the late period the Southern parts of the country had their own defacto rulers in the form of the high priests of Amun who were associated with the Southern territories as an extension of their power base.Not to mention the fact that many of the chief dieties besides Amun originated in the South, such as Hathor, Bes, Nekhbet, Khnum, Amun, Satis, Set, etc.....
Indeed. This shows that the southern regions still retained important influence.
It was a result of the events of the 2nd intermediate period, when large numbers of Southerners flowed north all the way to the delta that the AE incorporated Kush and Gebel Barkal into the Middle Kingdom.
quote: Mentuhotep II, the 21st century BC founder of the Middle Kingdom, is recorded to have undertaken campaigns against Kush in the 29th and 31st years of his reign. This is the earliest Egyptian reference to Kush; the Nubian region had gone by other names in the Old Kingdom. Under Thutmose I, Egypt made several campaigns south. This eventually resulted in their annexation of Nubia c. 1504 BC. After the conquest, Kerma culture was increasingly Egyptianized, yet rebellions continued for 220 years until c. 1300 BC. Nubia nevertheless became a key province of the New Kingdom, economically, politically and spiritually. Indeed, major pharonic ceremonies were held at Jebel Barkal near Napata.[16] As an Egyptian colony from the 16th century BC, Nubia ("Kush") was governed by an Egyptian Viceroy of Kush. With the disintegration of the New Kingdom around 1070 BC, Kush became an independent kingdom centered at Napata in modern northern Sudan.
I have also tried other online services. Paid my hard cash. Nada!
Software that can pinpoint geographic origin based on SNP/AIM released on the Abusir
eg GPS
Localizing Ashkenazic Jews to Primeval Villages in the Ancient Iranian Lands of Ashkenaz Ranajit Das, Paul Wexler, Mehdi Pirooznia, Eran Elhaik Author Notes Genome Biology and Evolution, Volume 8, Issue 4, April 2016, Pages 1132–1149, https://doi.org/10.1093/gbe/evw046 Published: 03 March 2016 Article history
The Origins of Ashkenaz, Ashkenazic Jews, and Yiddish Ranajit Das1, Paul Wexler2, Mehdi Pirooznia3 and Eran Elhaik4* 1Manipal Centre for Natural Sciences, Manipal University, Manipal, India
Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Ta Seti nome niwt (of Egypt) and Ta Seti nation xAst (of Sudan) were two separate entities.
Ppl don't like to hear it but the First Cataract was a border.
Before the unification of the Two Lands, Wawat ruled up to Nag el Hasaya in what would later be the 2nd nome of Upper Egypt (Heru's Throne) to the immediate north of the 1st nome TaSeti.nwt. So we see there was intense rivalry between TaWy and TaSeti.x3st since predynastic times.
quote:Originally posted November 13, 2007 by alTakruri:
I looked into Herodotus' statement in full context and found he did no more than relate what the Oracle of Ammon stated as the border of Egypt.
quote:My judgment as to the extent of Egypt is confirmed by an oracle delivered at the shrine of Ammon, of which I had no knowledge at all until after I had formed my opinion. It happened that the people of the cities Marea and Apis, who live in the part of Egypt that borders on Libya, took a dislike to the religious usages of the country concerning sacrificial animals, and wished no longer to be restricted from eating the flesh of cows. So, as they believed themselves to be Libyans and not Egyptians, they sent to the shrine to say that, having nothing in common with the Egyptians, neither inhabiting the Delta nor using the Egyptian tongue, they claimed to be allowed to eat whatever they pleased. Their request, however, was refused by the god, who declared in reply that Egypt was the entire tract of country which the Nile overspreads and irrigates, and the Egyptians were the people who lived below Elephantine, and drank the waters of that river. (link)
So said the oracle.
So we have it from Egyptians themselves that Aswan/Elephantine was the border as per 6th Dynasty's Weny Governor of the South and a 28th Dynasty unknown priest serving the Oracle of Ammon.
Also one should be careful not to confuse the nome Ta Seti which ended at Aswan/Elephantine with the independent polity Ta Seti which, in dynastic times, was relegated to upriver of Aswan/Elephantine and dubbed Wawat.
quote:Originally posted by Sundiata: ... Herodotus, who asserted that Egyptians are all those who drink water below Elephantine.
When you say predynastic times, I get confused. "Nubian A culture" sites have been found a bit North of Aswan. Are you suggesting that the dynastic period marked the end of Ta-Seti (nwt) as an independent entity, and the start of it being part of the Egyptian state?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Thanks for the question Ase.
Please slowly and carefully reread post #000040 and follow its lynx. You may want to print it all out, hold in your hands, and study it maybe underlining and taking notes as you go along.
Is the map there hard to understand on its own? Maybe it needs to be seen as an insert of a larger map of Egypt and northern Sudan.
I don't go for this alphabet soup Nubian stuff. Their kingdom names are known and I prefer them. (TaSeti, Wawat, Irtjet, Kau, Mekher, Tereres, Sethu, Utjek, Metjer, etc.)
TaSeti.xhast was primary. Its northernmost area is where sandstone displaces limestone in what is now Egypt and that's quite "a bit north of Aswan" between Silsila and Edfu.
. There was no nome TaSeti.niwt before "the Egyptian state" TaShemau.
TaSeti.niwt was just one part of TaSeti.khast (Wawat) taken over by the newly forming Egyptian state TaShemau as its first nome.
Part of the Egyptian state's second nome --Throne of Horus-- was the northernmost region of TaSeti.khast (Wawat).
So TaSeti.niwt was not the only part of TaSeti.khast taken over by the nascent Egyptian state as it spread south into the sandstone territory in its push toward Swn.t ('Aswan').
Think of New Mexico. It is one part of Mexico taken over by the USA. There was no New Mexico before there was a United States just as there was no TaSeti.niwt before there was a TaSeti.khast.
Baines & Malek is a cheap buy and you must buy it. There's a $5 copy in the link under the map in post #000040. Their maps are invaluable and show the ever changing political boundary of Egypt re Sudan.
The Egyptian state's natural south boundary was the 1st cataract. There's no denying what the Oracle of Ammon delineated as Egypt.
I hope this is helpful and not further 'muddying the waters'. I wish I could write like I speak but when I went to grade school we were taught that written English and spoken English are two different languages. Unfortunately, try as I might I can't overcome that hurdle.
If I'm still not clear let me know and I'll try it again (under 3 paragraphs).
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