quote: Deut 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
This is more likely to be Muhammed than Jesus, from among their brethren LIKE UNTO THEE, Muhammed was more like Moses than Jesus.
Ayisha, How is this more likely to be Muhammed (pbuh) rather than Jesus?
[/QB]
This is to Moses right? God says he will raise them up a prophet 'like him' meaning like Moses.
the only 2 things that Moses and Jesus have in common is: 1, Moses was a Jew, Jesus was a Jew 2, Moses was a prophet, Jesus was a prophet.
if these are the only criteria for considering 'like you' to be Jesus then it could have also meant Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist etc as they were all Jews and all prophets. So there is nothing to assume this verse is meaning Jesus as is taken by Christians because Jesus, apart from being a Jew and a prophet, as the rest I mentioned are, was nothing 'like Moses'.
According to YOU (*some* Christians), Jesus is God, Moses is not God.
According to YOU (*some* Christians), Jesus died for the sins of the world, Moses did not die for the sins of the world.
According to YOU (*some* Christians), Jesus went to hell for 3 days, Moses didnt.
Moses and Muhammed had father and mother, Jesus only had a mother.
Moses and Muhammed came by a normal birth, Jesus was by 'miraculous conception'
Moses and Muhammed married and had children, Jesus stayed single and had no children
Moses and Muhammed were accepted by their people at the time of their prophethood, Jesus was rejected and put to death by his people. (John 1:11)
Moses and Muhammed were prophets and Kings over their people. By King I mean they had power of life and death over their people, Jesus kingdom was not of this World
Moses and Muhammed brought new laws to their people. Moses not only gave the Ten Commandments to the Israelites, but a very comprehensive ceremonial law for the guidance of his people.
QUOTE: "Muhummed comes to a people steeped in barbarism and ignorance. They married their step-mothers; they buried their daughters alive; drunkenness, adultery, idolatry, and gambling were the order of the day. Gibbon describe the Arabs before Islam in his "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire", THE HUMAN BRUTE, ALMOST WITHOUT SENSE, IS POORLY DISTINGUISHED FROM THE REST OF THE ANIMAL CREATION.' There was hardly anything to distinguish between the "man" and the "animal" of the time; they were animals in human form. "From this abject barbarism, Muhummed elevated them, in the words of Thomas Carlysle, "into torch-bearers of light and learning.' 'TO THE ARAB NATION IT WAS AS A BIRTH FROM DARKNESS INTO LIGHT. ARABIA FIRST BECAME ALIVE BY MEANS OF IT. A POOR SHEPHERD PEOPLE, ROAMING UNNOTICED IN ITS DESERTS SINCE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD. SEE, THE UNNOTICED BECOMES WORLD NOTABLE, THE SMALL HAS GROWN WORLD-GREAT. WITHIN ONE CENTURY AFTERWARDS ARABIA WAS AT GRANADA ON ONE HAND AND AT DELHI ON THE OTHER. GLANCING IN VALOUR AND SPLENDOUR, AND THE LIGHT OF GENIUS, ARABIA SHINES OVER A GREAT SECTION OF THE WORLD. ..." The fact is that Muhummed gave his people a Law and Order they never had before." END QUOTE
Jesus brought no new law and came to fulfill the old law (matt 5:17-18)
Moses and Muhammed died normal deaths, Jesus died on the cross.
Moses and Muhammed both have graves on this earth, Jesus ascended to be with the father.
'from among their brethren' Abraham had 2 sons, firstborn was Ishmael from Hagar. he was the ONLY son till he was about 13 years old then God granted Abraham a child with Sarah which was Isaac. They have the same father so they are brothers, the children of each are therefore 'brethren' of the other. the children of Isaac are the Jews and the children of Ishmael are the Arabs. Gen 16:12 confirms that Ishmael shall dwell in the presence of all his 'brethren', Gen 25:18 confirms he died in the presence of his 'brethren' the Israelites. The verse in Deut 18:18 does not say 'from among yourselves' and so not from the 'children of Israel' but from among 'the brethren' of the people of Israel. Moses was descendant of Isaac and Muahmmed was from 'their brethren' from the line of Ishamael.
'and I will put my words in his mouth'
Muhammed was told to "RECITE in the name of your Lord," that was the first verse of revelation of Quran and he was to recite Quran (Words of God) to the people.
Muhammed was more like Mose than Jesus was and Deut 18:18 has to be about Muhammed and not Jesus.
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: Dalia, How is this talking about Jesus.
Not sure I understand the question. Are you asking if the verse is really talking about Jesus, or just disagreeing with what is being said there in regards to him?
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: good post of_gold and quite right. sadly Rahala here is what is described in these verses:
2:170 When it is said to them: "Follow what Allah hath revealed:" They say: "Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers." What! even though their fathers Were void of wisdom and guidance?
43:22 Nay! they say: "We found our fathers following a certain religion, and we do guide ourselves by their footsteps."
he has shown on another board today that he is unable to debate in a proper manner and unable to back up any claims he makes of being 'full of knowledge' or 'owner of truth'.
the prophet never said the Boble was corrupt but that the message has been corrupted in the same way He warns that muslims will do the same, as they are.
rightly so you have stated what you know of Muhammed and can say that these are from hadith which have corrupted what the man really was. Quran says we make no distinction in all the prophets but Muslims like rahala do all the time and put Muhammed in position right next to God, which is a BIG NO NO, but they dont even see that they do that.
blind and deaf they stay.
Thank you Ayisha but he follows what he believes to be correct. How can you condemn him for this? If he kills someone, then condemn this but how can you condemn him for following what he believes to be the truth? Don't you believe that God is able to hold this man up? Can you imagine how foolish we all must look to God? The very best we can do is to love one another.
quote:1Cr 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
quote: Rom 12:3 ¶ For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Rom 13:8 ¶ Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
What I am trying to say is that it is good to discuss and reason but everyone has their own mind. He is as fully convinced that his way is right as you are convinced that your way is right. From my perspective you both do the same thing to each other. What good does it do for one to say to another I am right and you are wrong or I am good and you are bad? You can't force each other. Isn't that what the extremist do, except they are a bit more extreme. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: good post of_gold and quite right. sadly Rahala here is what is described in these verses:
2:170 When it is said to them: "Follow what Allah hath revealed:" They say: "Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers." What! even though their fathers Were void of wisdom and guidance?
43:22 Nay! they say: "We found our fathers following a certain religion, and we do guide ourselves by their footsteps."
he has shown on another board today that he is unable to debate in a proper manner and unable to back up any claims he makes of being 'full of knowledge' or 'owner of truth'.
the prophet never said the Bible was corrupt but that the message has been corrupted in the same way He warns that muslims will do the same, as they are.
rightly so you have stated what you know of Muhammed and can say that these are from hadith which have corrupted what the man really was. Quran says we make no distinction in all the prophets but Muslims like rahala do all the time and put Muhammed in position right next to God, which is a BIG NO NO, but they dont even see that they do that.
blind and deaf they stay.
Thank you Ayisha but he follows what he believes to be correct. How can you condemn him for this? If he kills someone, then condemn this but how can you condemn him for following what he believes to be the truth? Don't you believe that God is able to hold this man up? Can you imagine how foolish we all must look to God? The very best we can do is to love one another.
Yes he follows what he feels is correct because thats what he has been TOLD is correct. I have only given him verses from Quran, the book he claims to follow, and shown was he IS doing. As for condeming him, I think you will find him to be the one repeatedly telling people they are in the fire, are ignorant, have no knowledge, etc etc and condemed everyone who do not follow what he claims ALL muslims follow, which is incorrect, not ALL muslims follow what he follows although I will agree most sunni follow what he follows, sunni doesnt mean Muslim and its a sect not a 'name change'. Dalia and I have refuted every claim he has made.
I can totally agree how we look to God but He KNEW that already. He knows us better than we know ourselves and I have shown rahala the verses that show God knows what hes doing and warns repeatedly about it. he is blind to it though.
quote:1Cr 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
I disagree that God has any foolishness, but I accept the 'meaning'
quote: Rom 12:3 ¶ For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
rahala has repeatedly claimed to be better than anyone in knowledge and faith. He displays arrogance.
quote:Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
it is not always possible and the crusades and witch hunts stand as exampes to that
quote:Rom 13:8 ¶ Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
i love everyone (except about 2 or 3 people and rahala is not one of those )
quote:Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
rahala has judged ME and Dalia for our beliefs, we have shown him Gods verses, he chooses to ignore or claim they dont mean what they say because his scholars have changed the meanings with their tongues
quote:What I am trying to say is that it is good to discuss and reason but everyone has their own mind. He is as fully convinced that his way is right as you are convinced that your way is right. From my perspective you both do the same thing to each other. What good does it do for one to say to another I am right and you are wrong or I am good and you are bad? You can't force each other. Isn't that what the extremist do, except they are a bit more extreme.
Yes I agree with you but as in any debate there are 2 sides and you are doing the same in bringing Bible verses to show we are wrong too. meaning you judge us.
I have said before I dont care one way or another what anothers faith is, but when he comes here TELLING me what I should believe 'as a muslim' and if I dont believe what he believes then im not a muslim I will prove with Quran that I AM according to Gods Words and according to Gods Words he is a non-believer.
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posted
I realize what he does to you and I feel that he shouldn't. I was trying to express that to him. I really think it is good to discuss individual views. What I find offensive is when it is personalized. For instance when he says that you are not Muslim or when you say, blind and deaf they stay.
Look, You and I have debated quite a bit and you make your view very clear to me but you have never personalized it or attacked my character.
IMHO, I see posting sura or scripture as a way of saying this is what I believe and this is why. I don't see it as a judgement against a person and I didn't realize that you took it as me judging you. I am sorry about that. How do we discuss without offense if we can't show it?
For myself I don't make a habit of judging someone by their religion. I look at character. It's not exactly looking at character either cause a good person can do bad things and a bad person can do good things. Its more like my spirit agrees with theirs. Now I think I am branching off into another directions and talking about my friends.
As for your other post, I am not well studied in the OT. I have started reading it over but have not written my response yet. I had to take my dad to the doctor today. Do you want to know my opinion about it or no?
-------------------- "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton) Leap and the Net will Appear. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: I realize what he does to you and I feel that he shouldn't. I was trying to express that to him. I really think it is good to discuss individual views. What I find offensive is when it is personalized. For instance when he says that you are not Muslim or when you say, blind and deaf they stay.
When he says i am not muslim he is personalizing it, when I say blind and deaf I am quoting Quran, although granted I am not giving the actual verse and number but he knows its in there.
quote:Look, You and I have debated quite a bit and you make your view very clear to me but you have never personalized it or attacked my character.
an you have never dont that to me either.
quote:IMHO, I see posting sura or scripture as a way of saying this is what I believe and this is why. I don't see it as a judgement against a person and I didn't realize that you took it as me judging you. I am sorry about that. How do we discuss without offense if we can't show it?
I agree and I was just showing that in my posts where I have quoted verses which I thought you were saying I was judging him by it can be the same the other way round. Now I see that you were unaware me calling him blind and deaf was actually from Quran. I will quote properly next time as you do and as I normally do. 002.018 YUSUFALI: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). 002.171 YUSUFALI: The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat-herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom. 005.071 YUSUFALI: They thought there would be no trial (or punishment); so they became blind and deaf; yet Allah (in mercy) turned to them; yet again many of them became blind and deaf. But Allah sees well all that they do. 017.097 YUSUFALI: It is he whom Allah guides, that is on true Guidance; but he whom He leaves astray - for such wilt thou find no protector besides Him. On the Day of Judgment We shall gather, them together, prone on their faces, blind, dumb, and deaf: their abode will be Hell: every time it shows abatement, We shall increase from them the fierceness of the Fire.
there are a few but our friend hasnt the wisdom to see they do mean him.
quote:For myself I don't make a habit of judging someone by their religion. I look at character. It's not exactly looking at character either cause a good person can do bad things and a bad person can do good things. Its more like my spirit agrees with theirs. Now I think I am branching off into another directions and talking about my friends.
of which I hope I am still one of those
Gold you know me, you know I dont care if a person is a jew christian buddhist or whatever, but he as a Muslim has put himself in the postition of God, only God can decide who is or is not Muslim, I have never said he isnt a Muslim and in the above post I said I gave verse to show he was a non-believer. This is from the verse, not from me. He will never be able to find ONE single verse that says I am an unbeleiver in following Quran.
043.043 YUSUFALI: So hold thou fast to the Revelation sent down to thee; verily thou art on a Straight Way.
quote:As for your other post, I am not well studied in the OT. I have started reading it over but have not written my response yet. I had to take my dad to the doctor today. Do you want to know my opinion about it or no?
I hope your dad is ok?? Of course i would like to hear your response, if you want to give one Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote: quote: IMHO, I see posting sura or scripture as a way of saying this is what I believe and this is why. I don't see it as a judgement against a person and I didn't realize that you took it as me judging you. I am sorry about that. How do we discuss without offense if we can't show it? I agree and I was just showing that in my posts where I have quoted verses which I thought you were saying I was judging him by it can be the same the other way round. Now I see that you were unaware me calling him blind and deaf was actually from Quran. I will quote properly next time as you do and as I normally do. 002.018 YUSUFALI: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). 002.171 YUSUFALI: The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat-herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom. 005.071 YUSUFALI: They thought there would be no trial (or punishment); so they became blind and deaf; yet Allah (in mercy) turned to them; yet again many of them became blind and deaf. But Allah sees well all that they do. 017.097 YUSUFALI: It is he whom Allah guides, that is on true Guidance; but he whom He leaves astray - for such wilt thou find no protector besides Him. On the Day of Judgment We shall gather, them together, prone on their faces, blind, dumb, and deaf: their abode will be Hell: every time it shows abatement, We shall increase from them the fierceness of the Fire.
there are a few but our friend hasnt the wisdom to see they do mean him.
Maybe why it bothers me so much is because my x husband used to do the same to me. He would pick scripture and use it to condemn me. Except one day I turned the tables and slammed him quoting scripture after scripture I had underlined that refereed to what he was doing. He just sat there silently and stared at me.
With all due respect I understand that you are trying to show him what you believe, but couldn't he just as easily use those above verses in the Quran toward you? IMO The way you are personalizing it is saying that these verses are talking about him saying that he is deaf, dumb, and blind and that he is not being guided by Allah.... Right?
Maybe one has to go one way and another the other way but each try their best and they each make mistakes.
Look, at one point you wore hajab. At that time it was important to you to wear it but now because of things that you have learned or experienced you decided that it is not important for you to wear it. Both times you were trying to do what you felt was right. Either way, you were doing your best to serve God. You could say that with one way you were putting yourself under that law, and with the other way freeing yourself from that law. Yet both times you were doing what you believed was the right thing to do, and at each time the two opposing things were the right thing for you at the time.
I think Rahala is the same. He needs his traditions. Some people think that it is wrong to have a Christmas tree because the pagans would cut trees to bring in the house. I love having a Christmas tree. It is my tradition. Should I stop because someone else thinks that I should? Does having a tree mean that I don't believe in God. Of course not.
God looks at the heart. The more that I realize this the less judgmental I become and the more free.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: Maybe why it bothers me so much is because my x husband used to do the same to me. He would pick scripture and use it to condemn me. Except one day I turned the tables and slammed him quoting scripture after scripture I had underlined that refereed to what he was doing. He just sat there silently and stared at me.
But when you quoted to him those scriptures he couldnt deny them, rahala is denying they have anything to do with him 'because the prophet said blah blah in hadith' etc. there is a difference and the one you should be directing the 'dont judge' at is him, not me.
quote:With all due respect I understand that you are trying to show him what you believe, but couldn't he just as easily use those above verses in the Quran toward you?
No Gold I am not trying to show him 'what I believe' although i do believe this, I am trying to show him what Quran repeatedly tells him NOT to do what he IS doing.
No he cannot use those same verses or any other verses to show me im wrong, the only verses he can bring are the 'obey the messenger' 'follow the prophet' verses that I can clearly show HIM mean to follow Quran. And I will reiterate again, its HIM telling ME that I am not muslim for not believing what HE believes and not the other way round. He cliams his majority are right because they are majority, Allah says if you follow the majority you will be lost as they follow nothing but conjecture, and conjecture is what he follows.
quote:IMO The way you are personalizing it is saying that these verses are talking about him saying that he is deaf, dumb, and blind and that he is not being guided by Allah.... Right?
Allah is clear what one who rejects faith and follows something OTHER than His words is. Allah says they are blind and deaf because no matter how many verses you show them from Quran they return with 'following what they are told and what their fathers followed' which Allah says 'is nothing but conjecture'
quote:Maybe one has to go one way and another the other way but each try their best and they each make mistakes.
Absolutely. No path to God is clear the whole way but most LEARN from mistakes and LOOK to correct them.
quote:Look, at one point you wore hajab. At that time it was important to you to wear it but now because of things that you have learned or experienced you decided that it is not important for you to wear it. Both times you were trying to do what you felt was right. Either way, you were doing your best to serve God. You could say that with one way you were putting yourself under that law, and with the other way freeing yourself from that law. Yet both times you were doing what you believed was the right thing to do, and at each time the two opposing things were the right thing for you at the time.
Yes I wore hijab when I first converted because Muslims TOLD me I had to, that was the 'right' thing according to Allah, they said. After studying MYSELF and more reading of QURAN I discovered that is NOT what Allah told me to do but was ADDED to Allahs words and rules by man, as SO MANY other things in Islam as it is followed by the sects today. Yes I thought I was doing the right thing at that time because I was new and hungry for knowledge and hungry to do what Allah wanted, but I studied for myself and a whole new world opened up to me with a glorious LIGHT showing what 'hadith and sunnah' "of Muhammed" really is and its a total distortion of the Islam Allah gave in His Books.
rahala claims he is Arab and knows the language better than anyone and he claims he knows Islam back to front, well my suggestion is that he only knows what he has been TOLD he HAS to believe and thats what he sticks to. You saw the same thing with Shah, they are scared to leave the path of 'mans way' as its 'tradition' and when you start looking for yourself you are told quite violently that you will go off the right path, they scare you into sticking to it, they threaten and when you are a newbie its scary, when you have been born into the 'traditional' view its your whole world, so I can understand why so many stick to it as their fathers did etc etc. The ummah!
If rahala (and shah or anyone else) needs to stick to hadith and sunnah that claims to be of the prophet instead of see the verses that warn you against this in Quran then that is up to them but dont come telling me I am not Muslim, have lost my way or am NOT following a book I celarly AM following. Even shah said 'Quranist' like its an 'insult' to Quran!! really, what sort of mentality is that? Following Quran is an insult? to WHO?
quote:I think Rahala is the same. He needs his traditions. Some people think that it is wrong to have a Christmas tree because the pagans would cut trees to bring in the house. I love having a Christmas tree. It is my tradition. Should I stop because someone else thinks that I should? Does having a tree mean that I don't believe in God. Of course not.
I miss Christmas because it is part of MY traditions but you dont use a tree and say it is PART of your religion, thats the difference. Rahala and the sunni sect claim Hadith is the second part of Islam and you have to follow it to be Muslim. Nowhere does Allah say that in Quran, that there is another secret revelation. There have been these sort on this board that have said Quran NEEDS hadith more than hadith needs Quran, now that IS an insult.
There are many hadith I have posted for rahala here and another board, he cant answer my questions on them. They claim hadith 'explains' Quran but no sunni has been able to tell me what verses are explained in the hadith about not washing with dung. There are so many ridiculous hadith that are nothing whatsoever to do with Quran but the problem is that although they claim to follow these hadith, they dont actually KNOW THEM.
So when a sunni can come and show me each hadith and where it explains a verse in Quran and make sense of both, then I will reconsider my belief. When a sunni can come and show me how to match up the idiotic contradictions they CLAIM to be from a prophet of God with the actual prophet Allah shows us in Quran, then I will reconsider my belief. Until then I will defend my belief WITH Quran. 025.052 YUSUFALI: Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an).
quote:God looks at the heart. The more that I realize this the less judgmental I become and the more free.
I am free but I will defend Gods Words just as you will. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:rahala claims he is Arab and knows the language better than anyone and he claims he knows Islam back to front, well my suggestion is that he only knows what he has been TOLD he HAS to believe and thats what he sticks to. You saw the same thing with Shah, they are scared to leave the path of 'mans way' as its 'tradition' and when you start looking for yourself you are told quite violently that you will go off the right path, they scare you into sticking to it, they threaten and when you are a newbie its scary, when you have been born into the 'traditional' view its your whole world, so I can understand why so many stick to it as their fathers did etc etc. The ummah!
What is the problem Ayisha?
Edited; I said I Stop commenting and also added that I apologize if I offended anyone unintentionally but you keep on saying that we believe what we were taught. You keep on what you believe but please stop your claims
Posts: 2591 | From: **Ex Oriente Lux** | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by 'Shahrazat: What is the problem Ayisha?
Edited; I said I Stop commenting and also added that I apologize if I offended anyone unintentionally but you keep on saying that we believe what we were taught. You keep on what you believe but please stop your claims [/QB]
I dont have any problem Shah.
quote:"I was also questioning that matter before Stephie. But I stopped doing it as I may find myself in a big trouble in front of Allah by questioning it that much. Religion is submission."
"I really can't get people who reject the Sunnah (the system and the order)of Muhammed (saw) while they ONLY believe in The Book that sent to people VIA him. "
"Same for me Dalia. I have a deep respect for the Sunnah of the Prophet. That is mainly taught by my father who read thousands of Islamic, anti-Islamic books both in English and Turkish. "
You have questioned these things but were scared that you may be wrong and you stopped questioning., you follow what you father taught you and HIS reasoning and mind. you stopped questioning so you stopped LOOKING and took what you were TOLD. The Message was sent VIA the prophet, if it was sent VIA The Post Office and a postman would you be wanting to know about everything The Post Office and the postman did and said? NO because you have the message The Post Office and the postman DELIVERED FROM ALLAH. You can still have a deep respect for the sunnah of the prophet AS I HAVE but his sunnah is found IN QURAN, the message he delivered. His sunnah is NOT in Bukhari.
quote:"Mind is the most dangerous enemy of the belief."
"Mind is only a tool. It didn't invent the religion. It is not the pruduct of the mind and logic. It is the law of Allah who is the owner of the mind. Mind and logic can't judge the religious matter after a certain point. Everybody's mind level and way of mind working is different than the other and by questioning, people can create millions of thoughts. And we change our mind sometimes and our thoughts are affected by many things. So the basics of religion are put by ALLAH, they are fixed and he chose prophets for making people to know Him and His rules. And he wanted us to follow His prophets. "
follow them in how they stuck to HIS WORD.
You said things about the mind yet you believe the hadith have not been made up in someones mind even after proof has been given you. You follow the mind of your father and of the hadith makers. (I am NOT having a go at or disrespecting your father in ANY way shape or form here) And have more faith in THEIR minds at arriving at truth than you do in your OWN that ALLAH gave YOU. the Words of Quran are for YOU, not for you via scholars etc minds.
quote:"I claim that Quranists are in a wrong path. This is my opinion and my opinion based on the most trustable scholars like Bukhari (not to a wacko called Edip Yüksel) "
I have no idea at all what Edip Yuskel is doing in there but hey
You claim I am wrong but I am not allowed to suggest you may be wrong? You call Bukhari 'trustable' why dont you trust Allah?
You claim to follow the sunnah yet you have denied you believe the age of Aesha to be 6 at marriage and 9 at consumation, yet is IS SUNNAH. It is in sahih Bukhari where you claim sunnah is from, so you pick and choose.
Hadith say wash arms etc once, twice and thrice, 3 DIFFERENT and therefore CONTRADICTORY hadith, did you even KNOW that?
I claim you dont KNOW what it is your ummah is following and you follow because thats what you're told and you do it without questioning.
IF you are happy with that as you say, then thats fine, but the claim you think I made above is correct as seen from your posts.
PS I have just read my post again and you MAY have misunderstood were I said "they scare you into sticking to it, they threaten and when you are a newbie its scary, " that I meant YOU in particular or you and rahala, I did not! I meant 'they' as in just about any sunni you/i/we suggest to that hadith might not all be gospel. I wasnt refering to you so if you misunderstood that part as a claim then I am sorry.
I dont wish to offend anyone but as you/others will have their say and express their beliefs then so will I. If I have offended anyone then I am truely sorry, religion is always a touchy subject to anyone that follows one. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by 'Shahrazat: Really you are scaring me Ayisha,relax, why don't you give up?
scaring you?? I am perfectly relaxed shah, you seem to be the one thats not relaxed.
What do you want me to give up? I'm sorry I really dont understand your comment at all, are you telling me not to reply to your posts or what? You are perfectly entitled to disagree with me but it wont take away the fact the verses are in Quran to back up all I am saying and I wont give up saying them. If there is something in particular you want to voice disagreement on then post the verse or hadith and we can discuss. If you dont want to have part in this discussion then stop replying with comments that I made claims that I didnt, but dont ask me to 'give up' when you mean 'shut up'. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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I have just read that you have a problem with your toe, get well soon Ayisha
Actually I m not better than you as I had the most nerve wracking, painful dentist appointment of my life today Posts: 2591 | From: **Ex Oriente Lux** | Registered: Jan 2007
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Toe is better than it was thanks shah, got hubby looking after me Egy style = insisting I need to see a doctor and watching footy till I need feeding or watering
I know about teeth pain only too well shah hope you get better soon too
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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I have just been told that I am not a Muslim and am kuffar(by a 'sister' at Uni) because I do not cover my hair when I pray and I pray at dawn... wtf!(we have been studying VERY late!) I have also been told by other girls at the Islamic Soc that I am not doing anything correctly (even though they cant all agree!) good god! Im about to give up trying to get to know these people!
Posts: 195 | From: Nottingham, England | Registered: Jan 2009
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That is a problem with the law and why Jesus came to fulfill it. You can't ever do it all right.... no one can.
-------------------- "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton) Leap and the Net will Appear. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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Don't get me started on the subject of Jesus! I am sick of people (Christian and Muslim) who will condemn people for not 'doing it right' where the HECK do they get the right to judge! I am Muslim, this doesn't mean I am a slave to someone elses traditions or culture, I was never christian because I cannot believe in a dead god who was the son of the REAL god who was nailed to a cross to die for MY sins...eek....reminds me of the Lord of the Green wood in celtic mythos where the god of the forest was sacrificed every year so the spring would come.
Posts: 195 | From: Nottingham, England | Registered: Jan 2009
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They don't have the right, unless you are under the law, then the law is the judge. I am sick of the judgmental people too. Thats why I avoid them.
What dead God are you referring too?
-------------------- "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton) Leap and the Net will Appear. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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I think of_gold means if the law proscribes a way to do something then I have to follow it (i.e. Saudia) The 'dead god' is the Christian version of Jesus.
Posts: 195 | From: Nottingham, England | Registered: Jan 2009
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I may well be wrong, but I thought that Muslims accepted that Jesus was alive? Christians certainly do, as their whole faith and Christian experience is built on that fact of His resurrection.
Posts: 430 | From: luxor | Registered: Apr 2008
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Alive yes, but hardly any nailing him onto a cross..that's real nasty. Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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Yes Dzosser, really nasty! I could certainly think of nicer ways to spend my Fridays. However, us Christians believe that His love for all of us was that great that this suffering was worth it to bring us back to God. But this is getting us away from "Why follow hadith?"
Posts: 430 | From: luxor | Registered: Apr 2008
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Qur'an tells us that Jesus didn't die on a cross not hadith, that means he's alive.. so we Muslims follow Qur'an by default..nothing off topic here. Why follow hadith, if Qur'an tells us he's alive and kicking. Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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That they rejected Faith: that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge. (156) That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";― but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.― (157) Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. (158)
Facts are facts, so why follow hadith ? Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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OK, OK, but the OP isn't about Jesus, it's about the principle of following hadith. Please don't confuse me, I'm OLD!!!!
Posts: 430 | From: luxor | Registered: Apr 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Stephie_ELH: I think of_gold means if the law proscribes a way to do something then I have to follow it (i.e. Saudia)
I didn't understand if she was referring to divine law or the law of a country. And what if one contradicts the other, as in KSA, for example?
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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I think that if I ever go to KSA I will follow the rules there in the interest of not getting arrested I follow Quranic Law and will do things in hadith if they do not contradict the Quran in order to not make others uncomfortable (i.e. I do not believe that covering my hair in prayer is necessary but will do so when with friends so I do not make them uncomfortable)
Posts: 195 | From: Nottingham, England | Registered: Jan 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Stephie_ELH: I think of_gold means if the law proscribes a way to do something then I have to follow it (i.e. Saudia) The 'dead god' is the Christian version of Jesus.
The Christian version of Jesus is that he had victory over death. We do not believe him to be dead. We believe in the power of the resurrection. This is a major difference between Christians and Muslims. In Islam Jesus appears worthless.
I think one problem in understanding each other is terminology. For instance:
Muslims believe that Jesus is the word of God and Christians believe that Jesus is the word of God except Christians believe that God's word is part of God.
Muslims believe in the spirit of God and Christians believe in the spirit of God except Christians believe that God's spirit is part of God.
As for the law, I mean if there is a law, any law, then the law judges if you do right or wrong. With that judgement there is a penalty for breaking it.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: As for the law, I mean if there is a law, any law, then the law judges if you do right or wrong. With that judgement there is a penalty for breaking it.
But your comment about the law followed Stephie's post about being told she is an unbeliever if she doesn't cover her head during prayer. There is no law stating that you have to do this.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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Christians believe that Jesus was the son of god and that he was murdered 'to pay for our sins' I have a problem with pretty much all of that. God is non corporeal and I do not believe that he ever had a son. I do not believe that one person can be responsible for anyone else s sins, that would be very wrong. I cannot bring myself to believe that god would be so cruel....Jesus is NOT worthless in Islam, he is simply not viewed as a god. When I spoke of judgment, only God can judge me, but if it doesn't harm my deen and is required by secular or so called 'religious authorities' of where I happen to be then I will follow local custom in the interest of not being arrested or worse. My aim is not to upset people but to live a happy life honoring god but not blindly following custom because '1million people cant be wrong'. If that were true I would be Hindu, Buddhist or Catholic...
Posts: 195 | From: Nottingham, England | Registered: Jan 2009
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Since the whole earth is a mosque, aligning woman with dogs and asses, as does the Hadith of Abu Hurayra, and labeling her a disturbance, amounts to saying that there is a fundamental contradiction between her essence and that of the divine. By lumping her in with two familiar animals the author of the Hadith inevitably makes her a being who belongs to the animal kingdom.
It is enough for a woman to appear in the field of vision for contact with the qibla -- that is, the divine -- to be disturbed. Like the dog and the ass, she destroys the symbolic relation with the divine by her presence. One has to interrupt one's prayer and begin again.
Arab civilization being a civilization of the written word, the only point of view we have on this question is that of Abu Hurayra. According to Ibn Marzug, when somone invoked in front of 'A'isha the Hadith that said that the three causes of interruption of prayer were dogs, asses, and women, she answered them: "You compare us now to asses and dogs. In the name of God, I have seen the Prophet saying his prayers while I was there, lying on the bed between him and the qibla. And in order not to disturb him, I didn't move." The believers used to come to 'A'isha for verification of what they had heard, confident of her judgement, not only because of her closeness to the Prophet, but because of her own abilities:
I have seen groups of the most eminent companions of the Prophet ask her questions concerning the fara'id (the daily duties of the Muslim, the rituals etc.), and Ibn 'Ata said: "'A'isha was, among all the people, the one who had the most knowledge of fiqh, the one who was the most educated and, compared to those who surrounded her, the one whose judgement was the best."
Despite her words of caution, the influence of Abu Hurayra has nevertheless infiltrated the most prestigious religious texts, among them the Sahih of al-Bukhari, who apparently did not always feel obliged to insert the corrections provided by 'A'isha. The subject of many of these Hadith is the "polluting" essence of femaleness.
To understand the importance for Islam of that aspect of femaleness, evoking disturbance and sullying, we would do well to look at the personality of Abu Hurayra, who, as it were, gave it legal force. Without wanting to play the role of psychoanalytical detective, I can say that the fate of Abu Hurayra and his ambivalence toward women are wrapped up in the story of his name.
Abu Hurayra, meaning literally "Father of the Little Female Cat," had previously been called "Servant of the Sun" ('Abd al-Shams). The Prophet decided to change that name, which had a strong sense of idolatry about it. "Servant of the Sun" was originally from Yemen, that part of Arabia where not only the sun, a female star in Arabic, was worshipped, but where women also ruled in public and private life. Yemen was the land of the Queen of Sheba, Balqis, that queen who fascinated King Solomon, who ruled over a happy kingdom, and who put her mark on Arab memory, since she appears in the Koran:
22. ... (the hoopoe) said: I have found (a thing) that thou apprehendest not, and I come unto thee from Sheba with sure tidings. 23. Lo! I found a woman ruling over them, and she hath been given (abundance) of all things, and hers is a mighty throne. 24. I found her and her people worshipping the sun instead of Allah ... .
Abu Hurayra came from the Yemeni tribe of the Daws. At the age of 30 the man named Servant of the Sun was converted to Islam. The Prophet gave him the name 'Abd Allah (Servant of Allah) and nicknamed him Abu Hurayra (Father of the Little Female Cat) because he used to walk around with a little female cat that he adored.
But Abu Hurayra was not happy with his nickname, for he did not like the trace of femininity in it: "Abu Hurayra said: 'Don't call me Abu Hurayra. The Prophet nicknamed me Abu Hirr (Father of the Male Cat), and the male is better than the female.'"
He had another reason to feel sensitive about this subject of femininity -- he did not have a very masculine job. In a Medina that was in a state of full-blown economic development, where the Medinese, especially the Jews, made an art of agriculture, and the immigrant Meccans continued their commercial activities and managed to combine them with military expeditions, Abu Hurayra preferred, according to his own comments, to be in the company of the Prophet. He served him and sometimes "helped out in the women's apartments." This fact might clear up the mystery about his hatred of women, and also of female cats, the two seeming to be strangely linked in his mind.
He had such a fixation about female cats and women that he recalled that the Prophet had prounounced a Hadith concerning the two creatures -- and in which the female cat comes off much better than the woman. But 'A'isha contradicted him, a Companion recounted:
We were with 'A'isha, and Abu Hurayra was with us. 'A'isha said to him: "Father of the Little Cat, is it you who said that you heard the Prophet declare that a woman went to hell because she starved a little female cat and didn't give it anything to drink?" "I did hear the Prophet say that," responded Father of the Little Cat. "A believer is too valuable in the eyes of God," retorted 'A'isha, "for Him to torture that person because of a cat ... Father of Little Cat, the next time you undertake to repeat the words of the Prophet, watch out what you recount."
It is not surprising that Abu Hurayra attacked 'A'isha in return for that. She might be "The Mother of the Believers" and "The Lover of the Lover of God," but she contradicted him too often. One day he lost patience and defended himself against an attack by 'A'isha. When she said to him, "Abu Hurayra, you relate Hadith that you never heard'" he replied sharply, "Oh Mother, all I did was collect Hadith, while you were too busy with kohl and your mirror."
One of the constant themes of conflict in Islam from the very beginning is what to do about menstrual periods and the sex act. Are periods the source of sullying? 'A'isha and the other wives of the Prophet never lost any opportunity to insist that the Prophet did not have the phobic attitude of pre-Islamic Arabia on the subject. Did the Prophet purify himself after making love during the holy month of Ramadan? "I heard Abu Hurayra recount that he whom the dawn finds sullied (janaban, referring to sullying by the sex act) may not fast." Upon hearing this new law decreed by Abu Hurayra, the Companions hastened to the wives of the Prophet to reassure themselves about it: "They posed the questions to Umm Salama and 'A'isha ... They responded: 'The Prophet used to spend the night janaban without making any ritual of purification, and in the morning he fasted.'" The Compainons, greatly perplexed, returned to Abu Hurayra:
"Ah, so. They said that?" he responded. "Yes, they said that," repeated the Companions, feeling more and more troubled, because Ramadan is one of the five pillars of Islam. Abu Hurayra then confessed, under pressure, that he had not heard it directly from the Prophet, but from someone else. He reconsidered what he had said, and later it was learned that just before his death he completely retracted his words.
Abu Hurayra was not the only one to report Hadith about the purification ritual, and this was a real bone of contention between 'A'isha and the Companions. "Ibn 'Umar ordered women who were doing the purification ritual to undo their braids (before touching their hair with wet hands)." 'A'isha is supposed to have responded when someone reported to her the teaching that he was propounding: "That's strange ... Why, when he was about it, didn't he order them to shave their heads? When I used to wash myself with the Prophet, we purified ourselves with the same bucket of water. I passed my wet hand over my braids three times, and I never undid them!"
'A'isha insisted on these corrections because she was conscious of the implications of what was being said. Pre-Islamic Arabia regarded sexuality, and the menstruating woman in particular, as a source of pollution, as a pole of negative forces. This theory about pollution expressed a vision of femaleness that was conveyed through a whole system of superstitions and beliefs that Muhammad wanted to condemn. He saw it as, on the one hand, the essence of their jahiliyya (the era of ignorance) and, on the other hand, the essence of the beliefs of the Jewish community of Medina.
The fuqaha who took part in the debate on the subject of pollution, recorded at length in their religious literature, came down on the side of 'A'isha. Their argument was that her version of the Hadith seemed to agree more with the attitude of the Prophet, who tried by all means to "struggle" against superstition in all its forms."
...
One can read among al-Bukhari's "authentic" Hadith the following one: "Three things bring bad luck: house, woman, and horse." Al-Bukhari did not include other versions of this Hadith, although the rule was to give one or more contradictory versions in order to show the readers conflicting points of view, and thus to permit them to be sufficiently well informed to decide for themselves about practices that were the subject of dispute.
However, there is no trace in al-Bukhari of 'A'isha's refutation of this Hadith:
They told 'A'isha that Abu Hurayra was asserting that the Messenger of God said: "Three things bring bad luck: house, woman, and horse." 'A'isha responded: "Abu Hurayra learned his lesson very badly. He came into our house when the Prophet was in the middle of a sentence. He only heard the end of it. What the prophet said was: 'May Allah refute the Jews; they say three things bring bad luck: house, woman, and horse.'"
Not only did al-Bukhari not include this correction, but he treated the Hadith as if there was no question about it. He cited it three times, each time with a different transmission chain. This procedure generally strengthens a Hadith and gives the impression of consensus concerning it.
No mention was made of the dispute between 'A'isha and Abu Hurayra on this subject. Worse yet, al-Bukhari followed this misogynistic Hadith with another along the same lines which reflected the same version of femaleness as a pole of destruction and ill luck: "The Prophet said: 'I do not leave after me any cause of trouble more fatal to man than women.'
The source of this Hadith is 'Abdallah Ibn 'Umar (the son of 'Umar Ibn al-Khattab, the second caliph), who was known for his rare asceticism and for nights interrupted by prayers and purifications. 'Abdallah was a source very highly valued by Bukhari. He was the author of another famous Hadith, in which he throws women into hell:
"'Abdallah Ibn 'Umar said: "The Prophet said: "I took a look at paradise, and I noted that the majority of the people there were poor people. I took a look at hell, and I noted that there, women were the majority.'"
What conclusion must one draw from this? That even the authentic Hadith must be vigilantly examined with a magnifying glass? That is our right, Malik Ibn Anas tells us. Al-Bukhari, like all the fuqaha, began his work of collecting by asking for Allah's help and acknowledging that only He is infallible.
It is our tradition to question everything and everybody, especially the fuqaha and imams. And it is more than ever necessary for us to disinter our true tradition from the centuries of oblivion that have managed to obscure it. But we must also guard against falling into generalizations and saying that all the imams were and are misogynistic. That is not true today and was not true yesterday. The example of this is Imam Zarkashi, who, luckily for us, recorded in writing all of 'A'isha's objections.
Imam Zarkashi was of Turkish origin, but born in Egypt in the middle of the fourteenth century (actually in year 745 of the Hejira). Like all the scholars of this time, he traveled throughout the Muslim world in search of knowledge. He specialized in religious knowledge and left behind no less than 30 compendiums. Many of these are lost to modern researchers, and we know only their titles. Among those that have come down to us is a book devoted to 'A'isha's contribution to Islam, her contribution as a source of religious knowledge. The book begins as follows:
'A'isha is the Mother of the Believers. ... She is the lover of the Messenger of God. ... She lived with him for eight years and five months; she was 18 years old at the time of the death of the Prophet. ... She lived to be 65 years old. ... We are indebted to her for 1.210 Hadith.
And he explains:
This book is devoted to her partiuclar contribution in this field, especially the points on which she disagreed with others, the points to which she supplied added information, the points on which she was in complete disagreement with the religious scholars of her time. ... I have entitled this book Collection of 'A'isha's Corrections to the Statements of the Companions (Al-'irada fi ma istadrakathu 'A'isha 'ala al-sahaba).
This book remained in manuscript form until 1939. Al-Afghani discovered it while doing research for his biography of 'A'isha in the Al-Dahiriya Library of Damascus. Why did Imam Zarkashi, one of the greatest scholars of the Shafi'i school of his time, undertake his work on 'A'isha? A work that, by all accounts, he must have considered extremely important, since he dedicated his book to the Judge of Judges (qadi al-qudat) -- the equivalent of the Minister of Justice today, the supreme authority in religious matters in a Muslim city. Because, he says, "the Prophet recognized 'A'isha's importance to such an extent that he said: 'Draw a part of your religion from little al-humayra.'"
One of the favorite pet names for 'A'isha was al-humayra, referring to her very white skin made radiant by a light sunburn, something rather rare in the Hijaz, the northern part of Arabia.
'A'isha disputed many of Abu Hurayra's Hadith and declared to whoever wanted to hear it: "He is not a good listener, and when he is asked a question, he gives wrong answers."
'A'isha could take her liberty of criticizing him because she had an excellent memory: "I never saw anyone who had so much knowledge about religion, poetry, and medicine as 'A'isha."
Abu Hurayra knew how to rile her. "But who has heard about that from Abu al-Qasim (the Prophet's surname)?" she exclaimed when someone recounted to her another of Abu Hurayra's traditions, this time describing what the Prophet did after making love.
It is not wasted effort to us to tarry over the personality of Abu Hurayra, the author of Hadith that saturate the daily life of every modern Muslim woman. He has been the source of an enormous amount of commentary in the religious literature. But he was and still is the object of controversy, and there is far from being unanimity on him as a reliable source.
The most recent book about him, jointly published by a Lebanese and an Iraqi firm, is a tribute written by one of his admirers who devotes no less than 500 pages to defending him. 'Abd al-Mun'im Salih al-'Ali gave his book a rather eloquent title: In Defense of Abu Hurayra. It was obviously a success since a new edition was published in 1983.
The author begins by asserting that "the Zionists and their allies and supporters have found another weapon against Islam; it is to introduce doubt about the narrators of traditions ... and especially about those who were the source of many Hadith."
This gives an idea of the controversy surrounding Abu Hurayra. What is certain is that Abu Hurayra, long before Zionism, was attacked by Companions of his own generation. He had a very dubious reputation from the beginning, and al-Buhkari was aware of it, since he reports that "people said that Abu Hurayra recounts too many Hadith."
'Abd al-Mun'im, to his credit, cites all those incidents in which he was strongly challenged, including by those other than 'A'isha. He assures us that 'Umar Ibn al-Khattab, the second orthodox caliph, did not say that "the worst liar among the muhaddithun (narrators of Hadith) is Abu Hurayra." He disputes the claim that 'Umar threatened to exile him, to send him back to his native Yemen, if he continued to recount Hadith.
'Umar, who enjoyed an unparalleled influence on the Prophet and the Muslim community of yesterday (and still does today) because of his prestige as a man of politics, his boldness in military matters, his strong personality, and his horror of lying, avoided recounting Hadith. He was terrified at the idea of not being accurate. For that reason, 'Umar was one of those Companions who preferred to rely on their own judgement rather than trust their memory, which they considered dangerously fallible.
He was very irritated by the facile manner in which Abu Hurayra reeled off Hadith: "'Umar al-Khattab," we can read in al-'Asqalani's biography of him, "is supposed to have remarked as follows about Abu Hurayra: 'We have many things to say, but we are afraid to say them, and that man there has no restraint.'"
For the pious Companion the fallibility of memory was an occasion for meditating on the fragility of existence in the face of the flowing river of time, which steals not only youth, but especially memory. 'Umar Ibn Hasin, another Companion who was conscious of the treacherousness of memory, said:
If I wanted to, I could recite traditions of the Prophet for two days without stopping. What keeps me from doing it is that I have seen some of the Companions of the Messenger of God who heard exactly what I myself heard, who saw what I saw, and those men recounted Hadith. Those traditions are not exactly what we heard. And I am afraid of hallucinating, as they hallucinate.
The Arabic word is yushbah, literally "to hallucinate," that is, to see a reality that does not exist, but that has the appearance of reality.
Abu Hurayra, on the contrary, for the three years that he spent in the company of the Prophet, would accomplish the tour de force of recalling 5.300 Hadith. Al-Bukhari listed 800 experts who cited him as their source. Here is how Abu Hurayra explains his excellent memory: "I said to the Prophet: 'I listen attentively, I take in many of your ideas, but I forget many.'"
Then, the Prophet is supposed to have told him to spread out his cloak while he was speaking to him, and afterwards to pick it up at the end of the session. "And this is the reason that I no longer forgot anything."
Telling the story of the cloak was not the best way to be convincing in a religion like Islam, which has a horror of mysteries of all sorts, where Muhammad resisted the pressure of his contemporaries to perform miracles and magical acts, and where the fuqaha became well versed from very early on in an exaggerated pragmatism.
Abu Hurayra also gave another explanation that was a bit more realistic than the first. The other Companions, he said, put their energy into their business matters and spent their time in the bazaars drawing up contracts and increasing their fortunes, while he had nothing else to do but follow the Prophet everywhere.
'Umar Ibn al-Khattab, who was well known for his physical vigor and who awoke the city every day to say the dawn prayer, disliked lazy people who loafed around without any definite occupation. He summoned Abu Hurayra on one occasion to offer him a job. To his great surprise, Abu Hurayra declined the offer. 'Umar, who did not consider such things a joking matter, said to him:
"You refuse to work? Better people than you have begged for work." "Who are those people who are better than me?" inquired Abu Hurayra. "Joseph, the son of Jacob, for example'" said 'Umar to put an end to a conversation that was getting out of hand. "He," said Abu Hurayra flippantly, "was a prophet, the son of a prophet, and I am Abu Hurayra, son of Umayma (his mother)."
With this anecdote we come back to our point of departure, the relationship of "Father of the Little Female Cat" to femaleness and to the very mysterious and dangerous link between the sacred and women.
All the monotheistic religions are shot through by the conflict between the divine and the feminine, bun none more so than Islam, which has opted for the occultation of the feminine, at least symbolically, by trying to veil it, to hide it, to mask it. Islam as sexual practice unfolds with a very special theatricality since it is acted out in a scene where the hijab (veil) occupies a central position.
This almost phobic attitude toward women is all the more surprising since we have seen that the Prophet has encouraged his adherents to renounce it as representative of the jahiliyya and its superstitions. This leads me to ask: Is is possible that Islam's message had only a limited and superficial effect on deeply superstitious seventh-century Arabs who failed to integrate its novel approaches to the world and to women? Is it possible that the hijab, the attempt to veil women, that is claimed today to be basic to Muslim identity, is nothing but the expression of the persistence of the pre-Islamic mentality, the jahiliyya mentality that Islam was supposed to annihilate?
(Fatima Mernissi: The Veil and the Male Elite, pps 69-81, footnotes / references omitted for readibilty)Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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We follow Quran and Hadith to be one Umma and to understand the Quran the right way and the secure way.
Prophet Mohammed teaches us how to pray and how to be one Umma and His deeds and teaching are recorded to us. We can't ignore the Hadith but we need to read and filter the hadith Texts..
May Allah bliss the efforts
Posts: 173 | From: Egypt | Registered: May 2010
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quote:Originally posted by 7seas: We follow Quran and Hadith to be one Umma and to understand the Quran the right way and the secure way.
006.116 YUSUFALI: Wert thou to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead thee away from the way of Allah. They follow nothing but conjecture: they do nothing but lie. PICKTHAL: If thou obeyedst most of those on earth they would mislead thee far from Allah's way. They follow naught but an opinion, and they do but guess. SHAKIR: And if you obey most of those in the earth, they will lead you astray from Allah's way; they follow but conjecture and they only lie.
023.034 YUSUFALI: "If ye obey a man like yourselves, behold, it is certain ye will be lost. PICKTHAL: If ye were to obey a mortal like yourselves, then, lo! ye surely would be losers. SHAKIR: And if you obey a mortal like yourselves, then most surely you will be losers:
039.023 YUSUFALI: Allah has revealed (from time to time) the most beautiful Message {THE BEST HADITH} in the form of a Book, consistent with itself, (yet) repeating (its teaching in various aspects): the skins of those who fear their Lord tremble thereat; then their skins and their hearts do soften to the celebration of Allah's praises. Such is the guidance of Allah: He guides therewith whom He pleases, but such as Allah leaves to stray, can have none to guide.
quote:Prophet Mohammed teaches us how to pray and how to be one Umma and His deeds and teaching are recorded to us. We can't ignore the Hadith but we need to read and filter the hadith Texts..
025.029 YUSUFALI: "He did lead me astray from the Message (of Allah) after it had come to me! Ah! the Evil One is but a traitor to man!"
025.030 YUSUFALI: Then the Messenger will say: "O my Lord! Truly my people took this Qur'an for just foolish nonsense."
025.052 YUSUFALI: Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an).
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
If you don't trust the prophet Mohammed to be a teacher, how do you trust the prophet to deliver Quran?
Prophet Mahammed is still a live practical Model to who wanna believe.
Yusuf Ali 21/33 Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.
Pickthall 21/33 Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much.
and How come will you follow the upove verse if you don't study The Sira and the stuff the prophet was doing?
Posts: 173 | From: Egypt | Registered: May 2010
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posted
7seas, did you read the whole thread? Because you are repeating arguments that have already been discussed earlier on.
It is not for any human being that God would give him the Book and the authority and the prophethood, then he would say to the people: "Be servants to me rather than God!" Rather: "Be Devotees for what you have been taught of the Book, and of what you have studied." (3:79)
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: As for the law, I mean if there is a law, any law, then the law judges if you do right or wrong. With that judgement there is a penalty for breaking it.
But your comment about the law followed Stephie's post about being told she is an unbeliever if she doesn't cover her head during prayer. There is no law stating that you have to do this.
There may not be that law to you or her but surely it is the law to some. For instance the "sister" who told her that she must do this.
In some countries it is the law that woman don't go out in public without a head covering. I would assume that would include going to pray.
Laws vary from place to place from one person to another, here they even vary from state to state.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: There may not be that law to you or her but surely it is the law to some. For instance the "sister" who told her that she must do this.
Well, if you argue like that, then anyone can make their personal convictions a "law".
For example, for me it is a "law" not to eat animals. Does that mean I have the right to tell other people to become vegetarians? Of course not!
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Stephie_ELH: Christians believe that Jesus was the son of god and that he was murdered 'to pay for our sins' I have a problem with pretty much all of that. God is non corporeal and I do not believe that he ever had a son. I do not believe that one person can be responsible for anyone else s sins, that would be very wrong. I cannot bring myself to believe that god would be so cruel....Jesus is NOT worthless in Islam, he is simply not viewed as a god. When I spoke of judgment, only God can judge me, but if it doesn't harm my deen and is required by secular or so called 'religious authorities' of where I happen to be then I will follow local custom in the interest of not being arrested or worse. My aim is not to upset people but to live a happy life honoring god but not blindly following custom because '1million people cant be wrong'. If that were true I would be Hindu, Buddhist or Catholic...
Jesus wasn't murdered as you phrase it. Jesus lay down his life for us.
You would have to understand the Jewish law to understand the significance of this. It is a bit odd to me that you believe that the Torah is from God yet you don't know what is in it. Since God has always been around then surely there is a progression and it didn't all begin with Muhammad (pbuh).
I agree that God is non corporeal. God is a spirit and those that worship him should worship him in spirit and in truth.
I know you have a problem with Christianity or else you would become a Christian, but clearly you do not understand it. I myself could never follow a warrior who took peoples lives. I have a problem with this so that is why I don't become Muslim.
Please explain to me the worth of Jesus in Islam. I would love to know this.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: There may not be that law to you or her but surely it is the law to some. For instance the "sister" who told her that she must do this.
Well, if you argue like that, then anyone can make their personal convictions a "law".
For example, for me it is a "law" not to eat animals. Does that mean I have the right to tell other people to become vegetarians? Of course not!
Exactly. A persons personal conviction is a law to them.
quote: Rom 14:14 ¶ I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that [there is] nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him [it is] unclean.
...and of course you cannot force this upon another. But there are laws of lands and these laws are enforced. Maybe somewhere it is the law not to eat a cow. You can't very well go into that place and kill a cow an eat it, well, you could but there would be a penalty.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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Exactly. A persons personal conviction is a law to them.
So do you think we have the right to impose our personal set of laws on others?
quote:Originally posted by 7seas:
Prophet Mahammed is still a live practical Model
No, he is dead. And that is exactly the point.
The only reliable information about him can be found in the Qur'an, not in things people said about him which were written down centuries after his death.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: The only reliable information about him can be found in the Qur'an, not in things people said about him which were written down centuries after his death.
Quran is reliable and Strong Hadith is also reliable. Both have authentic Sanad.
Posts: 173 | From: Egypt | Registered: May 2010
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As far as I am aware, there is only one version of the Quran, that which was narrated by the Prophet Mohammed directly to the ummah and memorized during his lifetime with his blessing and guidance. The same cannot be said for the hadith, the Prophet was dead when people decided to compile hadith and there are MANY contradictions and evils contained in them. The Quran not only states that it is complete on its own and that it is easy to remember/recite (not sure if that is EXACT translation) but also that punishment waits for those who associate other narrations with it. It is also suitable for all times/cultures. The same cannot be said for hadith, which is set out for a specific culture and time long passed. It would be like insisting that in order to observe the rules laid out in the American Constitution, you must dress and live as the founding fathers did. This is impractical and causes unnecessary suffering and confusion. For example, rules about women traveling alone in hadith, in that time and place it was hazardous for anyone to travel alone, so the Prophet issued guidelines FOR HIS TIME AND PLACE that are simply not applicable in modern times when we have relatively safe travel and easy communications. In order to follow his edicts now, the Quran must be observed, as he observed it in his lifetime, from the commandments of god. It doesn't NEED hadith and hadith just makes religion impossible to observe 'perfectly' (which hadith are we sure of ect., what about contradictions) I cannot bring myself to believe in texts that make the prophet and god sound like imbeciles, and not consistent ones at that. I will read hadith, but as I would any old history book, with a grain of salt and not trusting it to be absolutely accurate, certainly not accurate enough to trust my soul with.
Posts: 195 | From: Nottingham, England | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
A sanad is what authenticates a document or a confirmation proving an event or a saying to be correct. I am born Muslim, so grew up understanding the importance of Hadith as a book of ethics set by Muhammad pbuh to the Ummah, the majority of his sayings were transmitted and narrated by devoted scholars who delved into providing true evidence to the prophet Muhammad's pbuh sayings and doings..basically sanad saheeh or true evidence to support their averment. This is like quoting Confucius till this day.
Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
I see, the difference between quoting Confucius, which doesn't really matter, and hadith, is that with hadith it is allegedly an integral part of faith and that is where it gets tricky. I have read some hadith and my husband (also a born muslim ) has gone through this with me too, tried to justify the 'authentic' vs. 'questionable' and it all seems very...unstable may be the wrong term, but definitely not something to base faith on. I will keep looking for proof and follow the Quran and inshallah I will be guided correctly.
Posts: 195 | From: Nottingham, England | Registered: Jan 2009
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