It's possible some Egyptians from the pre and early Dynastic periods up to the Middle Kingdom may have had some Eurasian ancestry. _________________________________
(I'm not saying proven just true or false that it's possible)
true or false?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
True or False its Possible Using Lioness Theory of Proximity that the Arabs were Black..
In Lioness words "They were Right Next Door to Sudan and Ethiopia"...??
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
This is not about Clyde's ideas on the Moors Bitch..Its about Lioness...
True or False using Lioness Theory of Proximity the Arabs were black...
Why you running Bitch?? Its easy as T or F..
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Why do you want people to answer your question, yet you refuse to answer Jari's Question?
It is basically the same question turned around.
Peace
Are you Jari's manager why would I answer Jari's question I started this thread with a question, it wasn't answered so where is your logic that I'm supposed to answer a question in my own question based thread? It's not the same question. My question is geographic his question was racial. Did I ever state I had something I called the "theory of proximity"? No
Did you notice that he didn't address me in the form of a question to me, he said "True or False its possible using Lioness Theory of Proximity" He did not say "using your theory of" so it was not clear I was being addressed. (king think) But, regardless I will not respond if not addressed properly. Jari has called me a bitch on repeated occasions. I will never answer any question from him. Is this the character of Christians? Did you ever think to question that? Jari does not exist. It's just some words and an icon floating on a screen. This answer is for you King, the answer is TRUE, it's possible the Arabs were very dark brown. (pre or post Muhammad is another "when" issue) I will answer no further questions on the topic in this thread. If you or somebody wanted to ask a question about Arab skin tone, make your own thread, posing the question and stop nipping at the lioness' heals, _________________________________ true or false:
It's possible some Egyptians from the pre and early Dynastic periods up to the Middle Kingdom may have had some Eurasian ancestry. _________________________________
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Did not mean to get on your badside Lioness, I just thought that you should of answered Jari's question.
I will answer your querie and say that It's more then Possible that there was Eurasian inflitration into Egypt at the time the country was formed. I don't really go into detail because the Majority of the AE were Africans but with things like the Natfuians etc there is more then enough evidence to say there may of been a small trickle of Eurasians into Egypt. I will say this though, There is more Africans in Ancient Greece then Eurasians in Egypt.
Next time don't get so defensive with my posts, even though we don't always agree, I have respect for you.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: complete question:
_________________________________ true or false:
It's possible some Egyptians from the pre and early Dynastic periods up to the Middle Kingdom may have had some Eurasian ancestry. _________________________________
(I'm not saying proven just true or false that it's possible)
true or false?
Of course it is possible. The question is, did this admixture result in their intermediate phenotype?
NO
The question is, if it happened, does this negate the fact that they were still black Africans?
NO
The question is, if it happened, was this unique to Egypt, and not the case for Europeans like ancient Greece, who you see as less mixed than Egyptians?
NO
The same question can be directed at ALL civilisations. Wellfare and innovation attracts foreigners.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: complete question:
_________________________________ true or false:
It's possible some Egyptians from the pre and early Dynastic periods up to the Middle Kingdom may have had some Eurasian ancestry. _________________________________
(I'm not saying proven just true or false that it's possible)
true or false?
Of course it is possible. The question is, did this admixture result in their intermediate phenotype?
NO
The question is, if it happened, does this negate the fact that they were still black Africans?
NO
The question is, if it happened, was this unique to Egypt, and not the case for Europeans like ancient Greece, who you see as less mixed than Egyptians?
NO
The same question can be directed at ALL civilisations. Wellfare and innovation attracts foreigners.
Thread closed.
I don't see how anyone could be so sure as to say a definitive "no" to these statements and remain scientific. I think Keita would have had some maybes or I don't knows. I think people who act definitive are under the illusion there's some political gain in being definitive.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Thread closed bitch, are you deaf? Time to think of a next bait thread. lol
your heroes are white existentialists you support Nazis and David Duke you live in Eastern Europe what were you saying? Oh I guess that's ad hominem
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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you have a special interest in Jews and Nazi Germany. I don't. I don't go to Egyptsearch for that topic. If I post something off topic I don't go around like a little puppy in other threads begging people to respond, even putting up a link to some other thread, seeking attention like argyle saying "we're waiting" I'm not waiting I'm told you have extensive posts on stormfront under a different name. I'm sure they're very supportive
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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...and as for attention seeking... WTF are your threads about if not seeking attention for your mixed AE views. LOLOLOLOL
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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...and as for attention seeking... WTF are your threads about if not seeking attention for your mixed AE views. LOLOLOLOL
do I come to anyone personally begging over and over again to reply to threads? That's pathetic No one likes you on Egyptsearch, you're a bitter sexually frustrated rodent
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Question: would you consider the Andaman Islanders Eurasian?
Question: Given that haplogroup E3b is approx. 25% of modern Greek DNA would you say that some Greeks are of direct African stock? What does all that say of the so-called originators of "logos"?
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Question: would you consider the Andaman Islanders Eurasian?
Question: Given that haplogroup E3b is approx. 25% of modern Greek DNA would you say that some Greeks are of direct African stock? What does all that say of the so-called originators of "logos"?
The population of the Andamans was 356,000 in 2010, having grown from 50,000 in 1960. Of the people that live in the Andaman Islands, a small minority of about 1,000 are indigenous Adivasis of the Andamans. The rest are mainly divided between Bengali, Hindi, Tamil and Punjabi speaking people from the mainland. The indigenous Onge, Jarawa, and Sentinelese are thought to have been living in more or less isolation from the rest of the world on their islands for about 60,000 years. They are Eurasian. Their very dark skin, kinky hair, flat noses with large nostrils and full lips resemble many Africans. According to your premise of modern Greeks are 25% African. Y Haplogroup E1b1b (E-M215) previously known as E3b is theorized to have originated in the same general area as the parent clade: in North Africa, East Africa, or nearby areas of the Near East. While this means that E1b1b may have a more longer history in Africa than many other Y haplogroups, some of the major branches found outside of Africa are thought to have been out of Africa for perhaps well over ten thousand of years.The E1b1b clade is presently found in various forms in the Horn of Africa, North Africa, parts of Eastern, Western, and Southern Africa, West Asia, and Europe (especially the Mediterranean and the Balkans) Haplogroups overlap national and ethnic boundaries, and most ethnic groups have several different haplogroups in their populations. Greek Y-chromosomes belong to haplogroups HG1, HG2, HG3, HG9, HG21 and HG26. However none of the 35 Greek Y chromosomes are of non-Caucasoid origin.A Y-chromosome study, by Malaspina et al., which included a sample of 28 continental and 83 Cretan Greeks (total sample size of 111) found no evidence of the presence of non-Caucasoid Y chromosomes in Greeks. A Y-chromosome study, by Semino et al.,included 76 Greeks and 20 Macedonian Greeks. One Eu6 lineage, corresponding to HG10/HG36 is probably of East Asian origin. One Eu17 lineage corresponds to HG 28 which is frequent in Central Asia and the Indian subcontinent . In total, admixture of 2.1% is detected (if we label HG 28 as non-Caucasoid). A Y-chromosome study, by Weale et al., included 132 Greek students from Athens. The same haplogroups found in the Rosser et al study were detected in this study. No non-Caucasoid chromosomes were found. The most recent and comprehensive study of Greek Y-chromosomes, by Di Giacomo et al. included 154 individuals from continental Greece and 212 from Crete, Lesvos and Chios. In total, Greeks from thirteen separate locations were examined, thus giving the most complete picture of variation so far. A single haplogroup A chromosome was found (in Lesvos) which is usually found in Africa. The remainder belonged to haplogroups found in Caucasoid populations.E-M81, the North African clade of E3b is found at 1.8% in Nea Nikomedeia and in Sesklo/Dimini and not in Greece, confirming the limited influence of Africa to the Greek population; its absence from Crete is inconsistent with ideas of an African origin of the Minoan civilization. Clades of E prevalent in Northern or Sub-Saharan Africa were not found. According to Cruciani et al. most Greeks and other Balkan people belong to a specific cluster a within haplogroup E-M78 that is found in lower frequencies outside the Balkans and marks migrations from the Balkan area. The latest studies with a more refined version of the Y chromosome phylogeny indicate that influences from the Near East and North Africa in historical times are unlikely (perhaps in the order of 2%)The emerging picture of Y chromosome variation in Greece indicates genetic continuity, with slight influences from neighboring Caucasoid regions and virtually no influence from non-Caucasoids.With the exception of the Northeast corner of Europe, all other European populations have very small traces of extra-Caucasoid genetic input.
Lamin, question: true or false: It's possible some Egyptians may have Eurasian ancestry.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Of course, your question about some possible Eurasian origins of the AEs was loaded in the usual racist sense of assuming that any people of Eurasian origin must by definition be of non-African/non-black genotype and phenotype. If that was not your intention then why bother with the question?
Re the Greeks: why your emphasis on the Greeks having "no non-caucasoid chromosomes"? And what exactly does this sleight-of-hand language mean? And you run with the bogus claim made by orthodox Eurocentric genetics that E3b is not strictly of inner Africa origin.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Y Haplogroup E1b1b (E-M215) previously known as E3b is theorized to have originated in the same general area as the parent clade: in North Africa, East Africa, or nearby areas of the Near East. While this means that E1b1b may have a more longer history in Africa than many other Y haplogroups, some of the major branches found outside of Africa are thought to have been out of Africa for perhaps well over ten thousand of years. Why would you say it's "strictly" African? However when discussing the Greeks we are talking about the sub clade E-M78 which is at a high percentage rather than E-M81 which is at a very low percentage.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Anguishofbeing, is this true; Lioness says this about you: ''I'm told you have extensive posts on stormfront under a different name. I'm sure they're very supportive.''
Is this why you seem so eager to dialog with Goebbels the heil hitler screwball on the other topic? And you do have a fixation on Jews. What you got to say 'bout this new accusation. Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
You're totally shocked? Why not you. It ain't me. But your sarcasm is duly noted.
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: Of course, your question about some possible Eurasian origins of the AEs was loaded in the usual racist sense of assuming that any people of Eurasian origin must by definition be of non-African/non-black genotype and phenotype.
true or false:
It's possible some Egyptians from the pre and early Dynastic periods up to the Middle Kingdom may have had some non-African/non-black genotype and phenotypes ?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
^This is a rather obtuse question, because after all, can the same not apply to just about any society that is not isolated?
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: ^This is a rather obtuse question, because after all, can the same not apply to just about any society that is not isolated?
Indeed. Strange how asking the question the opposite way is avoided, especially given the DNA elements shared between Greeks and Africans.
From abstract: "1) Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles.. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt."
Study #2
From: "Population genetic relationships between Mediterranean populations determined by HLA allele distribution--a historic perspective." A. Arnaiz-Villena , E. Gomez-Casado, J. Martinez-Laso. Tissue Antigens, Volume 60, Number 2, August 2002, pp 111-121(11)
QUOTES:
"HLA genomics shows that: 1) Greeks share an important part of their genetic pool with sub-Saharan Africans (Ethiopians and West Africans) also supported by Chr 7 Markers. The gene flow from Black Africa to Greece may have occurred in Pharaonic times or when Saharan people emigrated after the present hyperarid conditions were established (5000 years BC)... some of the Negroid populations may have migrated (16, 19, 31) towards present-day Greece . This could have occurred when arid Saharan conditions became established and large-scale migrations occurred in all directions from the desert. In this case, the more ancient Greek Pelasgian substratum would come from a Negroid stock.(2)"
"Other Negroid genes have also been found in Greeks. They are the only Caucasoid population who bears cystic fibrosis mutations typical of Black Africans (Chromosome 7). See Dork, et al. In Am. J. Hum. Genet, 1998: 63: 656-682." "A more likely explanation is that some time during Egyptian pharaonic times a Black dynasty with their followers were expelled and went towards Greece . Indeed, ancient Greeks believed that their religion and culture came from Egypt (37, 38). Also, Herodotus (37)states that the daughters of Danaus (who were black) came from Egypt in great numbers to establish a presence in Greece . Otherwise, the Hyksos pharaohs and their people were expelled from Egypt and may have reached Greece by 1540 B.C. However, the Hyksos are believed to come from modern Israel and Syria . Other gene input from Ethiopians (meaning ‘‘Blacks’’ in ancient Greek) may have come from King Memmon from Ethiopia and his troops, who went to help the Greeks against Troy according to Homer’s Iliad. Having identified an African input to the ancient Greek genetic pool, it remains to determine the cultural importance of this input for constructing the classical Hellenistic culture.. "
QUOTES:
"South Tunisian HLA gene profile has studied for the first time. HLA-A, -B, -DRB1 and -DQB1 allele frequencies of Ghannouch have been compared with those of neighboring populations, other Mediterraneans and Sub-Saharans. Their relatedness has been tested by genetic distances, Neighbor-Joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. Our HLA data show that both southern from Ghannouch and northern Tunisians are of a Berber substratum in spite of the successive incursions (particularly, the 7th-8th century A.D. Arab invasion) occurred in Tunisia. It is also the case of other North Africans and Iberians. This present study confirms the relatedness of Greeks to Sub-Saharan populations. This suggests that there was an admixture between the Greeks and Sub-Saharans probably during Pharaonic period or after natural catastrophes (dryness) occurred in Sahara."
Older anthropological research- Anthropologists, studying old remains of Greeks, sometimes found sub-Saharan-like individuals:
J. Lawrence Angel, in American Anthropologist, New Series, Vol. 74, No. 1/2 (Feb. - Apr., 1972) [review of Frank Snowden's "Blacks in Antiquity" book] reports:
Quote: In my own skeletal samples from Greece I note apparent negroid nose and mouth traits in two of fourteen Early Neolithic (sixth millenium B.C.), only two or three more among 364 from fifth to second millenium B.C., one among 113 Early Iron Age, one or two among 233 Classic and Hellenistic skeletons, but four clear Negroids (all from one area of Early Christian Corinth) among ninety-five Roman period, two among eighty-five Medieval, and of course ten among fifty-two Turkish period Greeks, yet none among 202 of Romantic (nineteenth century) date.
Quote from Biological Relations of Egyptians and Eastern Mediterranean Populations during pre-dynastic and Dynastic Times, Journal of Human Evolution, 1972 (1) pp. 307-313:
Quote: "Against this background of disease, movement and pedomorphic reduction off body size one can identify Negroid (Ethiopic or Bushmanoid?) traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers (Angel, 1972), probably from Nubia via the predecesors of the Badarians and Tasians [. . .]"
Frank Snowden, who passed away in 2007 at age 96, had researched the presence of blacks in the ancient Greece from the standpoint of art and literature. His findings include:
Quote: Both the literary and archaeological evidence points to a not infrequent crossing between blacks and whites. Nothing in the observations on such unions, whether marriage or concubinage, resembles certain modern strictures on racial mixture.
Of course one reason for the color bar which recently existed in the West was the belief that it was race mixing which led to the collapse of Greek, Roman, and other civilizations. . . .
No laws in the Greco-Roman world prohibited unions of blacks and whites. Ethiopian blood was interfused with that of Greeks and Romans. No Greek or Roman author condemned such racial mixture. . . . The scientists Aristotle and Pliny, like Plutarch, commented as scientists on the physical appearance of those born of black-white racial mixture but included nothing resembling certain modern strictures on miscegenation. . . . It is safe to assume, therefore, that in course of time many Ethiopians were assimilated into a predominantly white population. (Blacks in Antiquity, 193-195)
With respect to the number of blacks in ancient Greece, Snowden states: Quote: Even though we cannot state, in the manner of modern sociologists and historians,the ratio of Blacks to Whites in either Greece or Italy, we can say that Ethiopians were by no means few or rare sights and that their presence, whatever their numbers, constituted no color problem. (Blacks in Antiquity, 186)
Snowden also mentions: Quote: Black-white sexual relations were never the cause of great emotional crises and many blacks were physically assimilated into the predominantly white populations of the Mediterranean world.
...the number of references to Ethiopians in Greek literature of the fifth century BC, on the appearance of mulatto children following the presence of blacks in Greece in the army of Xerxes, and on the many artistic representations of the mid- and late-fifth century BC reflecting this anthropological evolution.
Other DNA studies using different African populations than Arnaiz-Villena found the same clustering of Africans. Egyptians, grouped closer with other Africans like Mandenka, and Moroccans, than with Europeans.
Petlichkovski et. al. High-resolution typing of HLA-DRB1 locus in the Macedonian population. Tissue Antigens. 2004 Oct;64(4):486-91.
"A phylogenetic tree constructed on the basis of the high-resolution data deriving from other populations revealed the clustering of Macedonians together with other Balkan populations (Greeks, Croats, Turks and Romanians) and Sardinians, close to another "European" cluster consisting of the Italian, French, Danish, Polish and Spanish populations. The included African populations grouped on the opposite side of the tree..."
"As expected, the included African populations (Moroccans, Egyptians, Mandenka, and Algerians) were grouped on the opposite side of the tree... Bearing in mind the differences in the allele frequencies in the Macedonians in our study and those in the study of Arnaiz-Villena et al., we believe that the discordance of the observations in both the studies investigating the HLA polymorphism is probably due to the selection of different subject populations."
quote:Originally posted by zarahan: Strange how asking the question the opposite way is avoided, especially given the DNA elements shared between Greeks and Africans
posted
it's funny how I will make a post with an extensive reply that is longer and more detailed than any post previous to it and people will say I'm avoiding something. And in doing that it is just obliging a topic that is is other than the one the thread titled!
It is my mistake to let people detour that way. People come to your thread, change the subject, in fact avoid the original question and then accuse you of avoiding a new topic.
_________________________________
true or false:
It's possible some Egyptians from the pre and early Dynastic periods up to the Middle Kingdom may have had some non-African/non-black genotype and phenotypes ?
_______________________________
or the to lamin adapted version:
true or false:
It's possible some Egyptians from the pre and early Dynastic periods up to the Middle Kingdom may have had some non-African/non-black genotype and phenotypes ? _________________________________
you should be able to answer one or both of these questions.
You can always explain your answer and cut off any misinterpretation of your answer.
But why be scared to answer. If this thread was called:
__________________________ true or false:
It's possible some Greeks may have had some African ancestry?
nobody would hesitate to answer. why is that?
why even bother posting in a thread which asks a question and then not answer the question? makes no sense.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
My "adapted version" has really been fiddled with. "Non-African" does not mean non-African in the genotypical or phenotypical sense. Africa is just an arbitrarily defined area--according to Euro-thought. And even so that geographical area has been truncated further--according to tendentious Euro-thought:"sub-Saharan Africa".
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: My "adapted version" has really been fiddled with. "Non-African" does not mean non-African in the genotypical or phenotypical sense. Africa is just an arbitrarily defined area--according to Euro-thought. And even so that geographical area has been truncated further--according to tendentious Euro-thought:"sub-Saharan Africa".
If you say "Non African" alone the genotypical/ phenotypical sense versus the geographical sense is unspecified. Once that specification is indicated in a question than the sense is clear.
Thus here are the two versions:
1) true or false: It's possible some Egyptians may have Eurasian ancestry in the genotypical/ phenotypical sense
2) true or false: It's possible some Egyptians may have Eurasian ancestry in the geographic sense
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
management pays me a fee to perk up things around here, ESR's offer wasn't high enough
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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begging me to reply to other people's threads. We are up to 13 begs at this point. Isn't anyone interested in anguishes obsession anymore? can't someone help him with the attention he so desperately seeks?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
^ The only one desperate here is YOU. You are desperate for validation for your anti-black or in the least watered-down, creamed up, mulatto b.s.
The truth is you will never have it as long as FACTS prevail. So keep asking obtuse true or false questions.
Are you a neurotic loser? True or False.
answer: soo TRUE!
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Remember when "the lioness" was shown skeletal evidence that predynastic northern Egyptians were distinct from ancient Palestinians and were closer to Africans with regards to limb proportions? Well, why has s/he not retained that information?
Obviously there would have always been some mixture with Southwest Asians in the north of Egypt, but the question is, was it significant enough to affect the majority of the Egyptian population? The evidence suggests not.
posted
^ Indeed. If there was admixture then it would show in the skeletal remains as intermediate morphology. Though mind you the archaeological record especially of human remains in the Delta is relatively scant compared to the Nile Valley, so perhaps lyingass can hold out for some "hope". Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Remember when "the lioness" was shown skeletal evidence that predynastic northern Egyptians were distinct from ancient Palestinians and were closer to Africans with regards to limb proportions? Well, why has s/he not retained that information?
because the sample was small, did not represent the whole of Egypt by a long shot, the Nilotic influence came later and when people mix, certain traits are more dominant, limb proportion being one of them.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Obviously there would have always been some mixture with Southwest Asians in the north of Egypt, but the question is, was it significant enough to affect the majority of the Egyptian population? The evidence suggests not.
there is not enough evidence to determine it
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lyingass: because the sample was small, did not represent the whole of Egypt by a long shot, the Nilotic influence came later and when people mix, certain traits are more dominant, limb proportion being one of them.
Apparently you missed the point. The study shows that the sample, as small as it was, still showed the *same* limb proportions as those in Upper Egypt. And what is this "Nilotic influence" you speak of?!! Egyptians ARE Nilotic by very definition, idiot! Also, most autosomal traits like limb proportion are polygenic, that is they are not controlled by simply one or two alleles expressing for either dominance or recessive you moron! That's why mixing of tropically adapted people with cold adapted would show intermediate expression in offspring! LOL
quote:there is not enough evidence to determine it
Of course, yet YOU insist on such assertions. How dumb could you get? Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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because the sample was small, did not represent the whole of Egypt by a long shot, the Nilotic influence came later and when people mix, certain traits are more dominant, limb proportion being one of them.[/qb]
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:Apparently you missed the point. The study shows that the sample, as small as it was, still showed the *same* limb proportions as those in Upper Egypt. And what is this "Nilotic influence" you speak of?!! Egyptians ARE Nilotic by very definition, idiot! Also, most autosomal traits like limb proportion are polygenic, that is they are not controlled by simply one or two alleles expressing for either dominance or recessive you moron! That's why mixing of tropically adapted people with cold adapted would show intermediate expression in offspring! LOL
you missed the point, the study indicating Nilotic influence said it came after, keyword "after" The predynastic Egyptians had limb proportions that were less tropical than those who came later. Nilotic people or Nilotes, in its contemporary usage, refers to some ethnic groups mainly in southern Sudan, Uganda, Kenya, and northern Tanzania, who speak Nilotic languages, a large sub-group of the Nilo-Saharan languages. These include the Kalenjin, Luo, Ateker, Dinka, Nuer, Shilluk and the Maa-speaking peoples – all which are clusters of several ethnic groups.
____________________________________
"The ancient Egyptians have been described as having a “Negroid” body plan (Robins, 1983). Variations in the proximal to distal segments of each limb were therefore examined. Of the ratios considered, only maximum humerus length to maximum ulna length (XLH/XLU) showed statistically significant change through time. This change was a relative decrease in the length of the humerus as compared with the ulna, suggesting the development of an increasingly African body plan with time. This may also be the result of Nubian mercenaries being included in the sample from Gebelein.
Holliday TW, Ruff CB. 2001
Relative variation in human proximal and distal limb segment lengths.
____________________________________________
and...
__________________________________________
"The change found in body plan is suggested to be the result of the later groups having a more tropical (Nilotic) form than the preceding populations."
Sonia R. Zakrzewski
Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions.2003
____________________________________________
Regardless that limb proportions are polygenic, you cannot assume that a child of two parents one with tropical limb proportions and another with cold adapted limb proportions will have a perfect 50/50 split of limb proportions. Furthermore we are dealing with very similar zones, tropical and arid. Tropical limb proportions are relative to heat and cold exposure. When people are exposed to cold temperatures the limbs shorten to have less exposure.
There is no distinction of Tropical limb proportion and Arid limb proportion.
this is where your argument falls apart
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lyingass: you missed the point, the study indicating Nilotic influence said it came after, keyword "after" The predynastic Egyptians had limb proportions that were less tropical than those who came later. Nilotic people or Nilotes, in its contemporary usage, refers to some ethnic groups mainly in southern Sudan, Uganda, Kenya, and northern Tanzania, who speak Nilotic languages, a large sub-group of the Nilo-Saharan languages. These include the Kalenjin, Luo, Ateker, Dinka, Nuer, Shilluk and the Maa-speaking peoples – all which are clusters of several ethnic groups.
LOL "Nilotic" as used above is a linguistic or cultural term NOT one that describes biology. As such Nilotic speakers themselves may vary in physiognomy.
quote:"The ancient Egyptians have been described as having a “Negroid” body plan (Robins, 1983). Variations in the proximal to distal segments of each limb were therefore examined. Of the ratios considered, only maximum humerus length to maximum ulna length (XLH/XLU) showed statistically significant change through time. This change was a relative decrease in the length of the humerus as compared with the ulna, suggesting the development of an increasingly African body plan with time. This may also be the result of Nubian mercenaries being included in the sample from Gebelein.
Holliday TW, Ruff CB. 2001
Relative variation in human proximal and distal limb segment lengths.
Okay. And I never said all Egyptian limb length proportions were the same or that it was static and without change. However you cannot deny that whatever variations they were all still tropical in adaptation, nitwit.
Also the Nubian mercenaries were mainly Medjay whose range correlates with modern day Beja who are Afrasian speakers NOT 'Nilotic' speakers which proves my point about language.
quote:and...
"The change found in body plan is suggested to be the result of the later groups having a more tropical (Nilotic) form than the preceding populations."
Sonia R. Zakrzewski
Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions.2003
Okay. So the change resulted in even more tropical morphology but again that does not change the fact that Egyptian remains have *always been* tropical from the start, dummy!
Even Africans from the Guinea regions of West Africa or Bantus have body proportions that are less tropical in morphology than say people from Niger or Sudan, that doesn't mean such people are tropically adapted at all.
quote:Regardless that limb proportions are polygenic, you cannot assume that a child of two parents one with tropical limb proportions and another with cold adapted limb proportions will have a perfect 50/50 split of limb proportions. Furthermore we are dealing with very similar zones, tropical and arid. Tropical limb proportions are relative to heat and cold exposure. When people are exposed to cold temperatures the limbs shorten to have less exposure.
LOL I never said anything about a "perfect" 50/50 split, liar. I only said there will be some combination of the two. Furthermore tropical has to do with latitude NOT climate, you moron! "Arid" means dry and dry whether can occur anywhere in the world including the tropics! Even the vast majority of 'Nilotic' speakers also live in arid regions! LOL The distinction I made was between tropical and cold, dummy!
quote:There is no distinction of Tropical limb proportion and Arid limb proportion.
Never said there was, for the following reason I gave above, you buffoon! LMAO
quote:this is where your argument falls apart
Nope. This is where YOUR argument never properly formed, you twit! Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Nilotic people or Nilotes, in its contemporary usage, refers to some ethnic groups mainly in southern Sudan, Uganda, Kenya, and northern Tanzania, who speak Nilotic languages, a large sub-group of the Nilo-Saharan languages. These include the Kalenjin, Luo, Ateker, Dinka, Nuer, Shilluk and the Maa-speaking peoples – all which are clusters of several ethnic groups.
The term "Nilotic" also refers to anything pertaining to the Nile River. Therefore, Egyptians count as a Nilotic population even if they were not Nilo-Saharan speakers.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
^ Correct, but as everything else I stated it doesn't help the lyingass much. Whatever variations in limb lengths the Egyptians had, they were all still tropical or as Robins described it "negroid". I don't know what any of this has to do with "arid" body plans since again arid conditions still exist in the tropics where even Nilo-Saharan speakers live.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti. Furthermore tropical has to do with latitude NOT climate, you moron!
The populations of the Levant, the Mediterranean and North Africa are highly diverse in terms of Nationality and ancestral lineage. This is reflected in diversity of limb proportion.. Many different groups originated from many different locations. By no means can you make assumptions about the whole of any one of these regions the Levant, the Mediterranean or North Africa and assume the one group or remains found at one location site represents the limb proportions of the entire area.
Adaptation of limb proportion has nothing to do with latitude as only a position. It has to do with conditions within a latitude.
The adaptation of limb proportion has everything to do with, and is caused by, temperature.
The tropics happen to have a hot climate.
Desert regions also have a hot climate.
The term “tropically adapted” is misleading and many scientists do not use this term in regard to limb proportions. The term has become a red herring.
You and others have said the opposite of “tropical adaptation” is “cold adapted”
Right there we have an inconsistency of terms.
There are numerous scientists in published studies who use the proper term in discussing limb proportions and that term is:
“heat adapted”
What gets defined, in terms of climate as “desert” “tropical” or “Mediterranean” is also indefinite and irrelevant.
In terms of discussing the cause of limb proportion the relevant factor is primarily temperature, secondarily people's behavior in reacting to it.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: The tropics happen to have a hot climate.
Desert regions also have a hot climate.
Subtropical desert regions like North Africa are indeed hotter than many other biomes, but they don't stay hot as long as tropical regions. They tend to cool down significantly during the night as well as during winter. Therefore, a subtropical desert population should not be expected to have tropical limb proportions just like those of the ancient Egyptians.
You understand what this graph shows? It shows that ancient Egyptian limb proportions are more tropically adapted than those of other subtropical desert populations like the South African San and Southwest Native Americans. Admittedly Southwest Asians were not sampled in this particular study, but since Trenton Holliday has noted that Mesolithic Levantine populations had relatively cold-adapted limb proportions, we can infer that they would cluster with the San and Native Americans rather than with the Egyptians and other tropically adapted populations.
In short, the fact that the ancient Egyptians had tropical limb proportions rather than subtropical ones destroys your argument that they were significantly mixed with lighter-skinned Southwest Asians. You lose again.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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