quote:Originally posted by the lioness: complete question:
_________________________________ true or false:
It's possible some Egyptians from the pre and early Dynastic periods up to the Middle Kingdom may have had some Eurasian ancestry. _________________________________
(I'm not saying proven just true or false that it's possible)
true or false?
Of course it is possible. The question is, did this admixture result in their intermediate phenotype?
NO
The question is, if it happened, does this negate the fact that they were still black Africans?
NO
The question is, if it happened, was this unique to Egypt, and not the case for Europeans like ancient Greece, who you see as less mixed than Egyptians?
NO
The same question can be directed at ALL civilisations. Wellfare and innovation attracts foreigners.
^LMAO Lioness, does this mean that the USA are a mulatto Nation?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: The tropics happen to have a hot climate.
Desert regions also have a hot climate.
Subtropical desert regions like North Africa are indeed hotter than many other biomes, but they don't stay hot as long as tropical regions. They tend to cool down significantly during the night as well as during winter. Therefore, a subtropical desert population should not be expected to have tropical limb proportions just like those of the ancient Egyptians.
You understand what this graph shows? It shows that ancient Egyptian limb proportions are more tropically adapted than those of other subtropical desert populations like the South African San and Southwest Native Americans. Admittedly Southwest Asians were not sampled in this particular study, but since Trenton Holliday has noted that Mesolithic Levantine populations had relatively cold-adapted limb proportions, we can infer that they would cluster with the San and Native Americans rather than with the Egyptians and other tropically adapted populations.
In short, the fact that the ancient Egyptians had tropical limb proportions rather than subtropical ones destroys your argument that they were significantly mixed with lighter-skinned Southwest Asians. You lose again.
Your very simplistic graph does not specify time periods in a population with a shifting demographic as we will see below.
You have corrupted what Trenton Holliday said by selectively leaving things out. Here is what he said:
______________________________________________ There is long-standing disagreement regarding Upper Pleistocene human evolution in Western Asia, particularly the Levant. Some argue that there were two different populations, perhaps different species, of Upper Pleistocene Levantine hominids. The first, from the Israeli sites of Qafzeh and Skhul, is anatomically modern. The second, from sites such as Amud, Kebara, and Tabun, is archaic, or "Neandertal" in morphology. Others argue that this is a false dichotomy and that all of these hominids belong to a single, highly variable population. In this paper I attempt to resolve this issue by examining postcranial measures reflective of body shape. Results indicate that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids have African-like, or tropically adapted, proportions, while those from Amud, Kebara, Tabun, and Shanidar (Iraq) have more European-like, or cold-adapted, proportions. This suggests that there were in fact two distinct Western Asian populations and that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids were likely African in origin - a result consistent with the "Replacement" model of modern human origins
Trenton Holliday Evolution at the Crossroads Modern Emergence in Western Asia ____________________________________________
and here is what Sonia Zakrzewski said:
_______________________________________________
Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions.
Department of Archaeology, University of Southampton, Southampton SO17 1BF, UK. S.R.Zakrewski@soton.ac.uk Abstract
Stature and the pattern of body proportions were investigated in a series of six time-successive Egyptian populations in order to investigate the biological effects on human growth of the development and intensification of agriculture, and the formation of state-level social organization. Univariate analyses of variance were performed to assess differences between the sexes and among various time periods. Significant differences were found both in stature and in raw long bone length measurements between the early semipastoral population and the later intensive agricultural population. The size differences were greater in males than in females. This disparity is suggested to be due to greater male response to poor nutrition in the earlier populations, and with the increasing development of social hierarchy, males were being provisioned preferentially over females. Little change in body shape was found through time, suggesting that all body segments were varying in size in response to environmental and social conditions. The change found in body plan is suggested to be the result of the later groups having a more tropical (Nilotic) form than the preceding populations.
____________________________________________
The change found in body plan is suggested to be the result of the later groups having a more tropical (Nilotic) form than the preceding populations.
According to Zakrzewski the earlier Egyptian population had a less tropical (Nilotic) form than the later Egyptians. So where did the earlier Egyptians come from?
Was it from more West in Africa? What if we go West of the Nile (Nilotic) on the same latitude? No, the same latitude that would be virtually the same climate in this case.
How about South? No that would be more tropical rather than less.
How about North? bingo! yes that is less Nilotic and in fact the Northern neighbor to Egypt is the Middle East in Asia.
you lose again
Posts: 42935 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: There is long-standing disagreement regarding Upper Pleistocene human evolution in Western Asia, particularly the Levant. Some argue that there were two different populations, perhaps different species, of Upper Pleistocene Levantine hominids. The first, from the Israeli sites of Qafzeh and Skhul, is anatomically modern. The second, from sites such as Amud, Kebara, and Tabun, is archaic, or "Neandertal" in morphology. Others argue that this is a false dichotomy and that all of these hominids belong to a single, highly variable population. In this paper I attempt to resolve this issue by examining postcranial measures reflective of body shape. Results indicate that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids have African-like, or tropically adapted, proportions, while those from Amud, Kebara, Tabun, and Shanidar (Iraq) have more European-like, or cold-adapted, proportions. This suggests that there were in fact two distinct Western Asian populations and that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids were likely African in origin - a result consistent with the "Replacement" model of modern human origins
Trenton Holliday Evolution at the Crossroads Modern Emergence in Western Asia
You dumbass, the tropically adapted Southwest Asians Holliday was referring to were relatively recent immigrants from Africa, hence why they retained tropical limb proportions. The cold-adapted Southwest Asians I was referring to were Mesolithic, making them the product of thousands of years of evolution in Southwest Asia.
quote:According to Zakrzewski the earlier Egyptian population had a less tropical (Nilotic) form than the later Egyptians.
But the predynastic Egyptians were still on the tropically adapted part of the spectrum, even if not to the same degree as their descendents. You know the graph I showed you earlier? Well, the Egyptians sampled in that study were predynastic.
quote:So where did the earlier Egyptians come from?
Was it from more West in Africa? What if we go West of the Nile (Nilotic) on the same latitude? No, the same latitude that would be virtually the same climate in this case.
How about South? No that would be more tropical rather than less.
How about North? bingo! yes that is less Nilotic and in fact the Northern neighbor to Egypt is the Middle East in Asia.
Again, predynastic Egyptians were still tropically adapted to begin with.
Posts: 7082 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote: Originally posted by the lioness: How about North? bingo! yes that is less Nilotic and in fact the Northern neighbor to Egypt is the Middle East in Asia.
You don't take into account that pre-dynastic Saharans and riverine Nubians didn't necessarily live on the same latitude. Both donated people.
This could very well explain the differences in post-cranial meassurements. Whatever the case though, the researchers didn't include your speculation as a likely scenario.
Quite the opposite They reject it.
"..sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline variation along the Nile valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into southern Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans." - Barry Kemp, "Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation. (2005) Routledge. p. 52-60)Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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Not to anyone who knows what constitutes the "tropics" of planet earth.
quote: The term has become a red herring.
According to whom and why.
quote: You and others have said the opposite of “tropical adaptation” is “cold adapted”
And it is reasonable, since the tropics are generally the most UV radiation-intense regions of the earth.
quote: Right there we have an inconsistency of terms.
Again, not to those who understand what the tropic latitudes are. Since these are the most UV radiation-intense sections of the earth, it tacitly follows by logic that they generally also bear the brunt of solar heat. Is the sun's heat "hot" or "cold"?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: The tropics happen to have a hot climate.
Desert regions also have a hot climate.
.. Therefore, a subtropical desert population should not be expected to have tropical limb proportions just like those of the ancient Egyptians.
Not necessarily. People in the sub-tropics can have tropical adaptation if they originally came from the more tropical zone. Hence even in the "Mediterranean" climate of Lower Egypt, limb proportions STILL group the samples with Africans rather than Europeans as noted by Kemp. Keep in mind that the sub-tropics are immediately adjacent to the tropics. Another scenario is that people inthe subtropics are merely another variant off the tropical originals based on climate, etc. So there need be no significant "race mix" of any sort involved at all, just local variants of the same basic African stock. African people vary in how they look without needing any significant "race" mix from elsewhere to explain why.
Also keep in mind that early "Middle Easterners" or West Asians resembled not Europeans but tropically adapted Africans. As you point out though, later groups of SW Asians of course moved in from colder climes as the centuries went by.
Also we have to keep in mind that Barry Kemp is not the only research on the matter of the northerners. Raxter and Ruff 2008 did a detailed comparison using mostly northern samples. The result was the same. The northerners clustered closer to blacks than whites, confirming a pattern noticed in studies since the 1950s..
And then there is the case of the key Badarian group- a good representative of the ancestor of the ancient Egyptians.
The basic pattern is clear as noted in dental studies as well:
]"The question of the genetic origins of ancient Egyptians, particularly those during the Dynastic period, is relevant to the current study. Modern interpretations of Egyptian state formation propose an indigenous origin of the Dynastic civilization (Hassan, 1988). Early Egyptologists considered Upper and Lower Egyptians to be genetically distinct populations, and viewed the Dynastic period as characterized by a conquest of Upper Egypt by the Lower Egyptians. More recent interpretations contend that Egyptians from the south actually expanded into the northern regions during the Dynastic state unification (Hassan, 1988; Savage, 2001), and that the Predynastic populations of Upper and Lower Egypt are morphologically distinct from one another, but not sufficiently distinct to consider either non-indigenous (Zakrzewski, 2007). The Predynastic populations studied here, from Naqada and Badari, are both Upper Egyptian samples, while the Dynastic Egyptian sample (Tarkhan) is from Lower Egypt. The Dynastic Nubian sample is from Upper Nubia (Kerma). Previous analyses of cranial variation found the Badari and Early Predynastic Egyptians to be more similar to other African groups than to Mediterranean or European populations (Keita, 1990; Zakrzewski, 2002). In addition, the Badarians have been described as near the centroid of cranial and dental variation among Predynastic and Dynastic populations studied (Irish, 2006; Zakrzewski, 2007). This suggests that, at least through the Early Dynastic period, the inhabitants of the Nile valley were a continuous population of local origin, and no major migration or replacement events occurred during this time.
Studies of cranial morphology also support the use of a Nubian (Kerma) population for a comparison of the Dynastic period, as this group is likely to be more closely genetically related to the early Nile valley inhabitants than would be the Late Dynastic Egyptians, who likely experienced significant mixing with other Mediterranean populations (Zakrzewski, 2002). A craniometric study found the Naqada and Kerma populations to be morphologically similar (Keita, 1990). Given these and other prior studies suggesting continuity (Berry et al., 1967; Berry and Berry, 1972), and the lack of archaeological evidence of major migration or population replacement during the Neolithic transition in the Nile valley, we may cautiously interpret the dental health changes over time as primarily due to ecological, subsistence, and demographic changes experienced throughout the Nile valley region."[/i]
-- AP Starling, JT Stock. (2007). Dental Indicators of Health and Stress in Early Egyptian and Nubian Agriculturalists: A Difficult Transition and Gradual Recovery. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 134:520–528
Some biodiversity" types have argued for certain blood types in the north as compared to "sub-Saharan" blood types in the south. This falls flat as both north and south are united by high incidences of Type B, and indeed "B" appears at high frequencies in "sub-Saharan" Africa.
"Interestingly, Africa in general (independent of any racial categorization) has a higher incidence of group B than Europe or the Middle East. Whether this is the result of intermingling or the original B gene pool is unknown, however it does imply that the links between ancient Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa are deeper and older than generally recognized. " --P. D'Adamo (2002) "The Complete Blood Type Encyclopedia. pg 14
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
im sure even before the hyksos a few egyptians were mixed with non black africans??
Posts: 142 | From: england sw | Registered: Aug 2010
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