quote:

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Originally posted by Super car:
Miss Cleo, what is the basis of this wild senario? Don't tell me the answer was in your crystal ball.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
LOL! I always wondered what happened to her. Come to find out she now spends her free time trolling around the internet wasting decent people's time.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

Example # 3:

Evil E attempts to disqualify the close genetic relationship between east and west Africans through an attempt to make African sub-clades E3a and E3b distant geographic relatives. The fact is E3a and E3b are sister sub-clades of the E3 (PN2) haplogroup. E3a predominates in West Africa and E3b predominates in East Africa. Likewise, R1 and R1a1 are sister clades of the M45 haplogroup. R1 predominates in Western Europe and R1a1 predominates in Eastern Europe. An additional haplogroup I or M170 seems to relate the blonde, blue eyed or 'true white' populations of Europe. During the Last Glacial Maximum (hence forth LGM) Europeans were isolated from one another and developed these distinct genetic lineages. The two main refugees during the LGM were the Iberian refuge and the balkins refuge. R1 seems to have spread from the Western European/Iberian refuge. R1a1 and haplogroup 'I' seem to have spread from the Balkin refuge. It is of interest that Greeks carry low frequincies of this signiture European haplogroup. Greeks have 13% 'I'/European haplogroup and greater than 25% 'E3b'/Sub-Saharan East African haplogroup.

[This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 31 March 2005).]

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Thought Posts:

http://home.comcast.net/~RutledgeDNA/haplogroups.html

"What we know about the Haplogroups R1a, R1b, and I

The publication "The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A Y Chromosome Perspective" outlines the migration path of our ancestors into Europe. This is the main source of information that I used to write the summary below which showing that our ancestors have lived in Europe since the Upper Paleolithic (Literally, the "Old Stone Age", from 40,000 to 12,000 BCE) times.

Our ancestors with the M173 genetic marker (which includes haplogroups R1a and R1b) entered Europe from the east and diffused from east to west about 40,000 to 35,000 years ago spreading the Aurignac culture. This is the first culture of Homo sapiens sapiens to spread through central and western Europe and there descendents represent about 50% of todays Europeans. Aurignacian is the earliest subdivision of the Upper Paleolithic technological phase in western Europe (from 40,000 to 27,000 years ago). It is characterized by the use of bone tools and blade flint technology, with scrapers and burins.

During the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM, "the peak of the Ice Age", from 20,000 to 13,000 years ago) humans were forced to vacate Central Europe, with the exception of a refuge in the northern Balkans.

The ancestors of Haplogroup R1a expanded back into Europe from the Ukraine after the LGM 10,000 to 12,000 years ago. R1a is virtually absent in Western Europe. Its frequency increases eastward and reaches a maximum in Poland, Hungary, and Ukraine. R1a is indicative of "Viking blood" when seen in the British Isles.

The ancestors of Haplogroup R1b expanded back into Europe from the Iberian Peninsula (Spain) after the LGM 10,000 to 12,000 years ago. The frequency of R1b decreases from west to east, being most frequent in Basques and virtually absent near the Ukraine.

The ancestors of Haplogroup I (defined by the M170 genetic marker) arrived from the Middle East 20,000 to 25,000 years ago and are associated with the Gravettian culture. Gravettian is the second subdivision of the Upper Paleolithic technological phase in western Europe (from 27,000 to 21,000 years ago). Haplogroup I is most frequent in central Eastern Europe and also occurs in Basques and Sardinians. This haplogroup is believed to have been common within Viking populations."

Thought Writes:

Europeans have delineated the distribution of their primary lineages during and after the Last Glacial Maximum. We need to evaluate the distribution of E3 (E3a and E3b) following the onset of the LGM and the expansion of the Sahara that would have created pockets of isolated African populations around limited water sources (Refuge).

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:

The ancestors of Haplogroup R1a expanded back into Europe from the Ukraine after the LGM 10,000 to 12,000 years ago. R1a is virtually absent in Western Europe. Its frequency increases eastward and reaches a maximum in Poland, Hungary, and Ukraine. R1a is indicative of "Viking blood" when seen in the British Isles.

The ancestors of Haplogroup R1b expanded back into Europe from the Iberian Peninsula (Spain) after the LGM 10,000 to 12,000 years ago. The frequency of R1b decreases from west to east, being most frequent in Basques and virtually absent near the Ukraine.

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Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia.
Hum Genet. 2004 Jan;114(2):127-48.

“The major components (haplogroups E3b, G, J, I, L, N, K2, and R1; 94.1%) are shared with European and neighboring Near Eastern populations and contrast with only a minor share of haplogroups related to Central Asian (C, Q and O; 3.4%), Indian (H, R2; 1.5%) and African (A, E3*, E3a; 1%) affinity.”

Thought Writes:

A pure example of the Eurocentric approach to superficially dividing African people, while attempting to unite European people. Note how E3b is characterized as “shared with European and neighboring Near Eastern populations”, while E3a is characterized as being “African (in) affinity”. Instead of admitting that E3a and E3b are siblings and of a recent African origin, the author attempts to posit E3b in Eurasia. Using the same logic one could characterize R1 as “shared with African and neighboring Omani populations” in that R1 is found in substantial frequencies in Oman and among ‘Bantu-Speakers’ of the Central African nation Cameroon! By the way, I love the fact that Central Africans such as the ‘Bantu-Speakers’ of Cameroon carry higher frequencies of European specific genes than the East African Oromo. Blows holes in Evil E’s attempt to link phenotype and genes to the outdated concept of race. Same with the Lemba (who carry the Cohen gene), the Surma (who have broad African features and little E3a Y-Chromosome) and the Tutsi (who are elongated African with little E3b Y-Chromosome).

Thought Posts:

The Levant versus the Horn of Africa: evidence for bidirectional corridors of human migrations.
Am J Hum Genet. 2004 Mar;74(3):532-44.

“It is plausible that the African and Omani R1*-M173 chromosomes may be relics of an ancient back migration from Asia to Africa…~30 ky ago…”

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
[B]Thought Posts:

Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia.
Hum Genet. 2004 Jan;114(2):127-48.

“The major components (haplogroups E3b, G, J, I, L, N, K2, and R1; 94.1%) are shared with European and neighboring Near Eastern populations and contrast with only a minor share of haplogroups related to Central Asian (C, Q and O; 3.4%), Indian (H, R2; 1.5%) and African (A, E3*, E3a; 1%) affinity.”

Thought Writes:

A pure example of the Eurocentric approach to superficially dividing African people, while attempting to unite European people. Note how E3b is characterized as “shared with European and neighboring Near Eastern populations”, while E3a is characterized as being “African (in) affinity”. Instead of admitting that E3a and E3b are siblings and of a recent African origin, the author attempts to posit E3b in Eurasia. Using the same logic one could characterize R1 as “shared with African and neighboring Omani populations” in that R1 is found in substantial frequencies in Oman and among ‘Bantu-Speakers’ of the Central African nation Cameroon! By the way, I love the fact that Central Africans such as the ‘Bantu-Speakers’ of Cameroon carry higher frequencies of European specific genes than the East African Oromo. Blows holes in Evil E’s attempt to link phenotype and genes to the outdated concept of race. Same with the Lemba (who carry the Cohen gene), the Surma (who have broad African features and little E3a Y-Chromosome) and the Tutsi (who are elongated African with little E3b Y-Chromosome).

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Indeed. You should see Evil's recent response to the Tutsi appearance: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001783-2.html

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
I will gladly answer those questions as soon as **you** define what caucasoid and negroid mean to **you** in a scientific sense AND you prove to us that these terms are still valid and utilized by **modern** biological anthropologists.

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I've already done all of that, on several occasions. Just admit that you're stalling because you have no answers.

quote:

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Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia.
Hum Genet. 2004 Jan;114(2):127-48.

“The major components (haplogroups E3b, G, J, I, L, N, K2, and R1; 94.1%) are shared with European and neighboring Near Eastern populations and contrast with only a minor share of haplogroups related to Central Asian (C, Q and O; 3.4%), Indian (H, R2; 1.5%) and African (A, E3*, E3a; 1%) affinity.”

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Not much help from Africa, quite a bit of help from Asia.

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Bottom line is, western civilization didn't arise in a vacuum. Whether you believe Africa & Asia contributed just a little, or you believe (as I do) that Africa & Asia contributed plenty -- both voluntarily and involuntarily -- you can't be "a little bit pregnant", so western civilization as we know it couldn't have evolved without these "outside" contributions.

Anyway, you're BACKTRACKING, because in other threads you state *flat out* that Africa and Asia contributed NOTHING to modern civilization.

Aryanists will say ANYTHING that's politically expedient. The ends justifies the means for them.

quote:

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Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Great find. I don't even have to prove you wrong anymore. You're doing it for me.

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Thought Writes:

Please tell us **specifically** how this quote proves you right on anything? The trollers continue to use diversion tactics to avoid facing the cold, hard facts.

One moment Evil E claims that LSA East Africans were 'Generalized Moderns' that translates as Khosian types, next he claims that E3b (which dates to LSA times) is 'Caucasian'.

The simple fact is there are no known 'Caucasoid" skeletal remains dating to the period demarcating the genetic fussion of E3b1. In fact the remains found in this area at this time have been deemed 'proto-Khosian-Negroid'. These same 'proto-Khosian-Negroid' features later appear, along with the spread of the E3b genetic lineage among Natufians, and early Neolthic Anatolian and Macedonian people.

Rememeber that about 14% of the eraly Neolthic Greek remains had demonstratable 'Negroid' physical features. This is consistent with African 'BLOOD' flowing into southern Europe at this time.

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Anytime the subject of colonialism comes up someone wants to inject emotionalism into the discussion. It is naive to assume that the stronger cultures (euro-americans) are going to just ignore Africa with its vast resources for the sake of some idealistic principle.

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And you are trying to unconvincingly claim that you are different from Hitler.LOL

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Horemheb:
Africans would have done exactly the same thing had the situation been reversed.

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When the situation was reversed, we saw the results in how ancient Greece came out of it nicely, and so did the so-called European "awakening".

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Horemheb:
Why did Africa need another 50 years of colonialism?

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Good question, when its apparent that it "isn't" working.

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As western civilization was developing, from around 500 BC to the present, Africa was basically stagnant.

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What is this "western" civilization you are speaking of in 500BC. How is it one?

Horemheb, even a creature with the least intelligence can sense something wrong with a claim that a group of people learned to write, not to mention being conquered (particularly in the middle ages), from and by people in a stagnant territory.

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Horemheb:
When the europeans arrived many African societies were still neolithic in their structure.

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which is based on...

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Horemheb:
Many of them have not adapted to modern times even now.

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adapted to what? Vagueness, is a sign of a weak premises.

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Horemheb:

It took Europeans 2,500 years to get to this point. African societies could hardly do it overnight.

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Please share with all of us, how Europeans got to "this point", when, where, and which events determined this, and how Africans could hardly to "it" overnight.

Logic: Speaking of Europeans doing "it" for 2,500 years, and the same time expecting "it" to be done "overnight". State of confusion, is your territory Horemheb, don't you think?

What "it" is, is something we will perhaps never learn, for the guy doesn't know from head to tail, what he is talking about.

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Horemheb:

50 additional years of colonialism would have resulted in better schools, better communication and transportation systems, more time to instill the principles of democratic government, more political stability.

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So in essence, you are admitting that nothing good has been accomplished by this barbaric system of colonialism. Hence, you speak crudely of an additional 50 year senario.LOL

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Horemheb:

Those who cheered the fall of colonialism simply condemed many Africans and african states to starvation, disease, genocide, political instability and possibly even threatened their survival.

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How so? I am all ears.

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Originally posted by Horemheb:

Super car...you read the post and you know the answer to every question you asked.

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The question is whether you have answers!

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Horemheb:

I cannot educate you if you refuse to be educated.

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Correct; I cannot and refuse to be educated by the 'uneducated'.

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Originally posted by Horemheb:

You refuse to be eductaed by anybody super car. You can put your ego into play all you want BUT you need badly to learn the basics of history.

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Miss Cleo, when I need your services for fake mind reading games, I will ask for it thank you.

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Horemheb:
You have some bizarre ideas that i attribute to two things.

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Of course rational thinking seems bizarre to the mentally ill; why else do we have mentally-ill asylums? LOL.

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Horemheb:
BUT you need badly to learn the basics of history.

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Are you sure that you even know what basic history is? You have done an extraordinary job of showing just how much you don't know.

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Horemheb:
that is why I strongly recommended the Cahill book.

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Are you sure you read the book, much less understand its language? Recommendation from a troller, is highly suspect.

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Horemheb:
Secondly, you need to REMOVE all of the politics from your interest in scholarship.

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All agreed; 'you' need to get away from politics!

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Horemheb:
My main point on this board has been that this focus on 'race' is not a good thing.
It leads to bad scholarship and is not healthy for you.

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An advice which you desperately need more than anyone on this board. Start taking it.

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Thought Writes:

Most of us realize that 'Western Civilization' is a misnomer in that the Greeks (as they claim themselves) have a base of knowledge in large part derived from Asia and Africa.

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All true.

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Thought Writes:

Most of us realize that 'Western Civilization' is a misnomer in that the Greeks (as they claim themselves) have a base of knowledge in large part derived from Asia and Africa. But the real question is can we utilize Diop's Two Cradle Theory to construct an accurate model for the essential elements that define 'Western' culture.

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I'm not entirely convinced of the two-cradle theory.

It really is about the idea that environment shapes culture, which of course is true...but Africa has diverse environments and humans adapt unpredictably in terms of culture.

The Greeks were really a part of the continuum found in NE Africa and SW Asia. To understand more about 'Real' European origins we need to learn more about Otzi The Iceman:

Thought Posts:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2001/iceman.shtml

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
I'm not entirely convinced of the two-cradle theory.

It really is about the idea that environment shapes culture, which of course is true...but Africa has diverse environments and humans adapt unpredictably in terms of culture.

I like Ausar's observation about the Inuit of North America....they live in one of the most brutal environments on earth, but their culture is quite different from that of the native Northern European Barbarian cultures for example.

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Thought Writes:

Population density is/was lower in the Arctic than Western Europe, hence they never had the **opportunity** to express themselves in a similar manner.

Of course another earlier variation of this theme is found in Freud's 'A Phylogenetic Fantasy' whereby Freud attributes certain cultural manifestations to psychological and physiological adaptation to ice-age Europe.

Ancient Egypt In Africa
David O'Connor and Andrew Reid
2003

"First, insofar as ancient Egyptian civilization **is** African to a significant degree, and had a **substantial** influence on Greek culture, then Africa can be said to have played a part in the development of European civilization in general."

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in order to make that assertion one would have to link the philosophy and culture of the ancient greeks to previous civilizations, that simply can't be done.

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quote:

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Thought Posts:

Ancient Egypt In Africa
David O'Connor and Andrew Reid
2003

"First, insofar as ancient Egyptian civilization **is** African to a significant degree, and had a **substantial** influence on Greek culture, then Africa can be said to have played a part in the development of European civilization in general."

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I honestly don't think the Professor has studied ancient Greece. He just quotes beginner level constructs like "the near east" from public school history texts.

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Africa had almost 'no' role in the development of Greek classical thought. You have zero proof to back up such a foolish claim.

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Its not denial. Every classical scholar in the books has refuted your silly nonsense.... Black African culture was incpable of producing the wonders of Greece.

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Originally posted by Thought:
Ancient Egypt In Africa
David O'Connor and Andrew Reid
2003

"First, insofar as ancient Egyptian civilization **is** African to a significant degree, and had a **substantial** influence on Greek culture, then Africa can be said to have played a part in the development of European civilization in general."

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Its not denial.

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That is what they all say.

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Horemheb:
Every classical scholar in the books has refuted your silly nonsense...

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Yet for some reason, you supposedly know how they did so, but you are still unable to address the issues. What good has that done to you? Apparently not much.

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Horemheb:
If what you were saying is true it would be accepted as reality intead of being the butt of jokes.

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If there wasn't information out there about what is being said, you wouldn't be here in an 'attempt' to make an argument.

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Horemheb:
you do not offer proof

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It was offered; but when you are in denial, nothing will get into that empty head of yours.

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Horemheb:
just dumb ideas that will not stand scrunity.

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...some dumb ideas, that seem to draw 'attempt' (since you haven't been able to pull it off) of scrutiny from you.

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Horemheb:
Black African culture was incpable of producing the wonders of Greece.

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What wonders would that be...like writing, and using paper?

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Please tell us **specifically** how this quote proves you right on anything?

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Originally posted by Evil Euro:
It confirms that E3b is a Eurasian (Caucasoid) marker, and not a Sub-Saharan (Negroid) marker. You call that a "Eurocentric approach". Everyone else calls it scientific fact.

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How can E3b be Eurasian with an African origin? As usual you've ran into another deadend.

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Top Dog... you guys can debate genetics until the end of time but until someone points out how they specifily impact history its a waste of time.

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Translation: he's hasn't a clue.

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Where did these groups of people go? When did they go there? Who did they become?

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It confirms that E3b is a Eurasian

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It confirms that you have no answers.

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Originally posted by Evil Euro:
It confirms that E3b is a Eurasian (Caucasoid) marker...

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...which is backed up by which source? Explain it's origins in Eurasia, rather than in the Horn of Africa region?

The Oromo, Borana, Somali and other indigenous Black East Africans ranging from the Sudan and the Horn to Tanzania have the oldest deepest clades of E3b.

We actually have DNA evidence which fits very well with an intrusion of people FROM northeastern African INTO southwestern Asia. The Y-chromosome markers, associated with the male, FADE OUT as you go deeper into the Middle East. - Christopher Ehret [SOY Kieta]

Caucazoid genes don't exist

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Originally posted by Evil Euro:
E3b is found only in fully Caucasoid and partly Caucasoid populations. It correlates with Eurasian, not Sub-Saharan, ancestry.

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Evil, surely you've got to have a much better explanation for a profoundly wild theory such as E3b origins in Asia as opposed to the universally acknowledged tropical East African origin, than old discussions that should embarrass you.

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Originally posted by Super car:
Angel's comment:

Lawrence Angel
Journal of Human Evolutiom
1972
1, Pg 307

"Against this background of disease, movement and pedomorphic reduction of body size one can identify Negroid traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers, probably from Nubia via the unknown predecesors of the Badarians and Tasians....".

Corroborated by this:

The Levant versus the Horn of Africa:
Evidence for Bi-directional Corridors of

Human Migrations

American Journal of Human Genetics
74:2004

"A more recent dispersal out of Africa, represented by the E3b-M35 chromosomes, expanded northward during the Mesolithic (Underhill et al. 2001b). The East African origin of this lineage is supported by the much larger variance of the E3b-M35 males in Egypt versus Oman (0.5 versus 0.14; table 3)."

"Since E3b-M35 lineages appear to be confined mostly to the sub-Saharan populations, it is conceivable that the initial migrations toward North Africa from the south primarily involved derivative E3b-M35 lineages."

And Angel's student, none other than S.O.Y. Keita says this about Angel:

Response to bernal and Snowden
SOY Keita
Arethusa
26 (1993) pg 329

"I was a student of Larry Angel and am in some postion to comment on his views, which I know from conversation, the literature and personal correspondnce."

"Angel also found evidence for a "black" (if such exists) genetic influence in neolithic and later Aegean populations. Racialists models, which imply non-overlapping gene pools, are clearly negated by Angel's work."

Want more?

Am J Phys Anthropol. 1975 May;42(3):351-69. Related Articles, Links

New studies of post-Pleistocene human skeletal remains from the Rift Valley, Kenya.

Rightmire GP.

Prehistoric human crania from Bromhead's Site, Willey's Kopje, Makalia Burial Site, Nakuru, and other localities in the Eastern Rift Valley of Kenya are reassessed using measurements and a multivariate statistical approach. Materials available for comparison include series of Bushman and Hottentot crania. South and East African Negroes, and Egyptians. Up to 34 cranial measurements taken on these series are utilized to construct three multiple discriminant frameworks, each of which can assign modern individuals to a correct group with considerable accuracy. When the prehistoric crania are classified with the help of these discriminants, results indicate that several of the skulls are best grouped with modern Negroes. This is especially clear in the case of individuals from Bromhead's Site, Willey's Kopje, and Nakuru, and the evidence hardly suggests post-Pleistocene domination of the Rift and surrounding territory by "Mediterranean" Caucasoids, as has been claimed. Recent linguistic and archaeological findings are also reviewed, and these seem to support application of the term Nilotic Negro to the early Rift populations.

Now of course, many of these are all old studies, but careful analysis reveals that (as Topdog appropriately pointed out), any feature that 19th & early 20th century anthropologists deemed as a precursor to that of the much later cold-adapted Europeans, they labeled as the rightfully defunct and fraudulent term "caucasoid".

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quote:

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Originally posted by Super car:
Evil, surely you've got to have a much better explanation for a profoundly wild theory such as E3b origins in Asia as opposed to the universally acknowledged tropical East African origin, than old discussions that should embarrass you.

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It spread to Eastern Europe via the Levant.

It spread to Western Europe via Northwest Africa.

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Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Never said E3b originated in Asia. Learn how to read. And those old discussions should embarrass you because you still have no answers for any of them.

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Really? Let see...

Evil wrote earlier:

quote:

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It confirms that E3b is a Eurasian (Caucasoid) marker, and not a Sub-Saharan (Negroid) marker. You call that a "Eurocentric approach". Everyone else calls it scientific fact.

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...the words of a person, who speaks of a lower case "negroid" or an upper case one. lol.

Now, if rationality is anything to go by, "Eurasia" is not "Africa", right?
Could this be a comment of one, who lacks basic geography, or simply one who doesn't have basic english reading comprehension.

In your case Evil, I think its is the result of a mixture of both cases, aside from the fact that it is official: you are a LIAR.

...speaking of which, are you an upper case 'liar' or a lower case one? [hint: look up my words. ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Super car:
Really? Let see...

Evil wrote earlier:

It confirms that E3b is a Eurasian (Caucasoid) marker, and not a Sub-Saharan (Negroid) marker. You call that a "Eurocentric approach". Everyone else calls it scientific fact.

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When you get your GED and finally know how to read, you'll see that there's no mention of where E3b originated in what I wrote. Only that it's representative of Caucasoid (i.e. Eurasian) ancestry.

quote:

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Originally posted by Evil Euro:
When you get your GED and finally know how to read, you'll see that there's no mention of where E3b originated in what I wrote. Only that it's representative of Caucasoid (i.e. Eurasian) ancestry.

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When you learn the basics of grammar, perhaps it won't compound the fragility of your 'theories'. Lying doesn't mix well with the inability to understand the language which you want to use for distortion purposes. Disaster is the likely outcome of such a mix, and each reply you make is good indicator of this. Only an "upper case" mad man like yourself, would label a haplogroup of African origin as a Eurasian marker.

Let me help you learn to read your own writing:

Evil’s gibberish…

"It confirms that *E3b is a Eurasian (Caucasoid) marker*, and *not a Sub-Saharan (Negroid) marker*. You call that a "Eurocentric approach". Everyone else calls it scientific fact."

These people? Negroid traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers....probably FROM NUBIA via the predessors of the Badarians - Larry Angel

Try again.