quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: really does not whatbox. If the egyptians would have been black they would have had no real awareness of it. It is not impossible for a black man in 2009 to think in the same terms as a man living 3000 years ago. Modern blacks are obsessed with their blackness. No other race of people today sees their personal identity wrapped up in their pigment the way modern blacks are inclined to do. It is very unlikely that the Egyptians, Persians, Nubians etc gave much thought at all to pigment.
Most accounts say the reference is to black soil.
The Egyptians were very aware of color. They were smart enough to color themselves brown and color the people to the "south" black, and color others pale. You can find awareness of color in the bible. Other groups are not reminded of their color or the way they look so it shouldn't be suprising that black people are so conscious of color and the way they look. It is because they live everyday being reminded of it.
They were also smart enough to be aware and paint the shape of their limbs, does that mean they were obsessed by it?
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
Alas, the endless and repetitious meandering of the confused and ignorant mind that also assumes that everyone else here is equally dumb; the majority of folks here are intelligent, trust me. But it explains why these threads continue on and on without resolution. Now, I have personally provided both volumns of the Hieroglyphic dictionary (as well as presented samples here) and also Erman's Egyptian Grammar for folks here to study and for reference; but obviously these 'special' folks think that reading is somehow a quaint pastime or 'old school.'
How else do you explain, after providing so much reference material, that you get idiotic statements such as:
a) doesn't 'et' mean land as people? - no slow one, the "t" in "Kemet" is silent and only is there to indicate that the word is feminine; been explained here a thousand times.
b) the guy who talks about relying on so-called experts to explain words in a dictionary; can't read a book or is he hiding behind antiquated neo-colonial 'experts?' If this guy was a reader who was interested in Egypt, he would certainly be familiar with the book on the Peopling of Egypt symposium held in Cairo and how this one Egyptologist proclaimed to the gathering that "km" did not mean black! He was corrected of course, but that is tantamount to a professor of mathematics proclaiming that 2 + 2 = 6!
c) I already know what "Na Kammau" means, it means "These Blacks." I just wanted this ignorant person to hear it from an "official source." Dumb ass...
d) And let us not just focus on a single rendering of a word, where there has been interjected a false loophole. The beauty of language is in its explicit nature and the difficulty in altering its actual meaning...no amount of linguistic gymnastics is going to make 'padre' mean 'madre.'
There are other glyphs which self-describe the nationals of Ancient Egypt, we only need two of them: Kemut & Kammau (Kmemou)
It is important to point out that at the above mentioned symposium, where the same 'monoword' debate over "Kemet" and its meaning, one Egyptological expert argued that to say "Black people" in the Mdu Ntr, you would say "Kemu" - Well, we have "Kemu.t (determined by "Rome.t") Kammau, Kmemou, Kmomou are words of far less ambiguity than either Keme.t or Kemu.t. It is virtually impossible to tweak these words; Kammau (Blacks) is determined by 'Nu.t' which indicates 'an Egyptian community or settlement.
Because Kammau and Kemu.t are Mdu Ntr words that are virtually impossible to tweak, they are ignored, and focus placed on the more 'tweakable' - due to the century+ long repetition of the lie -"Kemet"
e) And rarely do we have a discussion of what these Africans called White folks - they, like most Africans everywhere, called them Red peoples... You know, like in Deshru.t, Deshretou which translates to Red devils, Red peoples, Horrible, Terrible, etc. It's all in the Hieroglyphic dictionary & Egyptian Grammar...!Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
"the Egyptians divided their land between the lush Nile Valley, which they called Kemet (the black land) in reference to it's rich alluvial soil, and the desert, called deshret (the red land)." Page 4
Tutankhamun's Armies John Coleman Darnell and Colleen Manassa
Darnell PHD Yale Near Eastern Languages Manassa Yale Professor of Egyptology
Do we need to keep up this high school lesson or do you guys think it is time for you to lear how to do actual resaerch?
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a) doesn't 'et' mean land as people? - no slow one, the "t" in "Kemet" is silent and only is there to indicate that the word is feminine; been explained here a thousand times.
What does the "t" has to do with whether land taking on the context as "people". What does the word being feminine has to do with whether the word land takes on the context of "People?"
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Indeed, this is just another case of 'the proof is in the pudding' with the pudding being the Egyptian language, Mdu-Neter itself!
There is no word for land or soil in Kmt. It's as simple as that.
How would those in Kmt express their land; the word soil refers to the ground or earth, but the word land can mean people unlike the word soil which cannot mean people.
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: really does not whatbox. If the egyptians would have been black they would have had no real awareness of it. It is not impossible for a black man in 2009 to think in the same terms as a man living 3000 years ago. Modern blacks are obsessed with their blackness. No other race of people today sees their personal identity wrapped up in their pigment the way modern blacks are inclined to do. It is very unlikely that the Egyptians, Persians, Nubians etc gave much thought at all to pigment.
Most accounts say the reference is to black soil.
The Egyptians were very aware of color. They were smart enough to color themselves brown and color the people to the "south" black, and color others pale. You can find awareness of color in the bible. Other groups are not reminded of their color or the way they look so it shouldn't be suprising that black people are so conscious of color and the way they look. It is because they live everyday being reminded of it.
They were also smart enough to be aware and paint the shape of their limbs, does that mean they were obsessed by it?
Egyptians seem like pretty arrogant obsessed people. They couldn't stop adorning themselves and emphasizing on looks, hair, and character. They were obsessed enough to keep painting damn near every activity they did. Egyptians were pretty narcissitic.
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: not according to the experts in the field Betty.
You cannot establish a point by calling the experts in the field liars. That is bizarre, almost to the point of being crazy. They have no reason to lie.
Further, if you cannot convince the leading egyptologists something is true your point will be lost to humanity.
You people are so excited about Egyptians calling themselve "black people". I don't think the term is black "people" but black "land" in which can mean People as in the case of a nation. Kemet sounds more correct as black land or black nation not black "people" though that is the right track. In English it must be translated to "Land of Black(s)" or Nation of Black(s)", not "black people". I don't understand why you fanatics are not getting it.
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posted
What people fail to understand is that there is no word for Land in KM.T. It is translated as Black(s) this is one of the Major issues that Egyptologist try to cover up. They agree with Herodotus that Km.T means Black Land, yet when he says that Egyptians were also Black, then all of a sudden he is wrong. Teaching others the correct meaning of KM.T is important to drop the Ignorance.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Indeed, "Black Nation" seems to be the most fitting translation in reference to a place. Objectively (and I may be going against the grain here), I've come to see more evidence that it referred primarily to the proposed divinity of this said nation and their ancestors (i.e, Kemwer, ''the great black'') as opposed to being a reflection of skin tone. Why "Black" is considered divine or sacred is debatable but surely it has something to do with resurrection.
More importantly is who it applied to and how it identified kin ship.
quote:It is Piye's Year 3 Stele that preserves the earliest Napatan record of the kingship tradition of Gebel Barkal. Here he declares that "Amun of Napata granted me to be ruler of every foreign country," and "Amun in Thebes granted me to be ruler of the Black Land (Kmt)" (FHN I 57; Reisner 1931, 89). The twin Amuns of Barkal and Karnak are presented here as mutually supportive aspects of each other, each giving the king a vital portion of his kingship. Only one Amun, however, is shown in the lunette. This is the ram-headed god of Napata, whom the text says gave the king "every foreign country." Yet we see that he is the one handing the king two royal crowns and thus also giving him the kingship of "the Black Land." One crown is the Red Crown of Lower Egypt, and the other is the cap crown, which obviously had some meaning analogous to, but not quite identical with, the White Crown. Here Amun of Napata seems to be granting the gift ascribed to Amun of Thebes. We wonder if there is an inconsistency here, or if we are to understand that the two gods are really exactly the same and perform the same tasks. We also wonder what the king really means here by the terms "foreign countries" and "the Black Land." Does the Red Crown of Lower Egypt symbolize "foreign countries"? Does the cap crown symbolize "Kemet"? **"Kemet", in this case, would have to be understood here as a united Nubia and Upper Egypt**. By the time of Harsiotef, "Kemet" had come to mean Kush (FHN II 446).
- Timothy Kendall
Thus, we can understand Km.t as conforming more so to geopolitics than soil. The so-called black soil didn't just up and disappear from lower Egypt when the Assyrians conquered it, it was simply labeled foreign because of that action. Kush on the other hand, is Km.t because they and Upper Egypt were a united polity. The Upper Egyptians embraced the Kushites as liberators and brothers under Ammon, while the Assyrians were foreign invaders from the red [or evil] country. Had nothing to do with red soil, as demonstrated with Seth [Egyptian god of evil] worship being associated with Asiatics.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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obtuse: dense: slow to learn or understand; lacking intellectual acuity
obtusely - dumbly: in a stupid manner
obtuseness - dullness: the quality of being slow to understand
Someone who is “obtuse” is “annoyingly sensitive or slow to understand”
Some examples of obtuseness on this topic:
quote:What does the "t" (in Keme.t) has to do with whether land taking on the context as "people". What does the word being feminine has to do with whether the word land takes on the context of "People?"
After Djehuti patiently explains that there is no determinative in the word Kmt that has anything to do with soil (To, Eiten, etc...)
quote:How would those in Kmt express their land; the word soil refers to the ground or earth, but the word land can mean people unlike the word soil which cannot mean people.
??? You mean, TaMeri - "My beloved land" isn't good enough? What Djehuti was trying to explain to slow folk like this is that Black Land would be written Kmt (determinative: "To") and not as it is written Kmt (determinative: "Nu" - Community, Nation)...
quote:You people are so excited about Egyptians calling themselves "black people". I don't think the term is black "people" but black "land" in which can mean People as in the case of a nation. Kemet sounds more correct as black land or black nation not black "people" though that is the right track. In English it must be translated to "Land of Black(s)" or Nation of Black(s)", not "black people". I don't understand why you fanatics are not getting it.
...the correct term to describe the majority of the folks on this forum would be intelligent, or learned, and NOT fanatics... another word that comes to mind to describe the folks here is bright which is the opposite of dim; and dim is a synonym for obtuse..
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Move beyond secondary school to university where we apply critical analysis to deconstruct past errors not based on primary documentation from the subjects themselves.
quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: "the Egyptians divided their land between the lush Nile Valley, which they called Kemet (the black land) in reference to it's rich alluvial soil, and the desert, called deshret (the red land)." Page 4
Tutankhamun's Armies John Coleman Darnell and Colleen Manassa
Darnell PHD Yale Near Eastern Languages Manassa Yale Professor of Egyptology
Do we need to keep up this high school lesson or do you guys think it is time for you to lear how to do actual resaerch?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
The Kemetian Liquistics thread was last seen 20 December 2004 and is unlocatable in the archive however I found it here. It's far too valuable to become lost. Let's try to save it somehow before it gets axed!!
posted
Originally posted in full on 08 December 2004 01:19 PM
The pages from Diop show seven usages of KM.t and km.t in words for people.
. . . .
Diop didnt do the translation. The translation comes from two European sources, one German the other French, they being 1. the Worterbuch der Agyptischen Sprache and 2. the Prolegomenes a letude de la religion egyptienne.
. . . .
The determinatives seated man and\or seated woman mean people.
. . . .
In direct literal translation km.t.nwt means black nation, where the root km (black) is an adjective suffixed by t which makes km.t a feminine noun whose meaning 'black nation' is indicated by the determinative nwt. Since km.t.nwt is a noun it can't be an adjective referring to the color of soil since no determinative for soil is given. When km.t.nwt is literally translated as the black land, the word land can only mean 'country' in the sense of 'nation.' If land in the sense of soil was meant, the word ta would precede km.t, something I have yet to see in a mdw ntr text.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Originally posted in full on 08 December 2004 02:54 PM
Please translate the following usages of km.t and show how nation rather than people is meant.
KM.t.rmt&st| ||
km.t.yw.rmt| ||
st.st KM.t.shnt
Please study elementary hieroglyphics and Kmtyw vocabulary before trying to comment on them.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Originally posted 09 December 2004 04:09 PM
This is the glyph Ta, Gardiners N16 It means land and appears at the front of words like Ta Meri.
This is the glyph xAst, Gardiners N25 It means land and appears at the end of words like Khurru or Kush.
This is the glyph niwt, Gardiners O49 It means city, town, etc,, and appears at the end of the word KM.t. Note that KM.t also appears with other determinatives and not just only with nwt.
The problem enters with our concept of the word land which can mean a parcel of land or a country or nation. The Kmtyw marked the distinction because nwt never means a parcel of land, it always mean a crossroads village town city nation, etc.
Please provide an example from a mdw ntr text where the nwt determinative means soil. What hieroglyphic dictionary gives soil as the meaning of nwt which is a glyph that depicts a crossroads not a field or a desert or some such?
posted
Originally posted 10 December 2004 12:24 PM
Precisely why cannot mean black land in the sense of a parcel of land which happens to be black in color. Nwt means crossroads, village, town, city, nation. Hence logically means 'Black nation' not 'black piece of land.'
Except in this instance of deliberate obfuscation, please show texts where nwt is translated as 'land' instead of 'crossroads.' The dictionary entry for nwt is village, town, city not land. The dictionary entries for t3 and smt are land.
Further, the codage system classes niwt under O (buildings) not in the N (heaven earth and water) class where t3 and x3st are categorized. Logic dictates that KM.t.nwt cannot mean 'black land' both according to codage class and according to grammar where KM.t in KM.t.nwt is indeed a feminine noun and is not an adjective. The name of a nation is always a noun never an adjective.
posted
Why would Egyptians call themselves the land of the blacks when they depicted the people south of them as being much darker than they were? Wouldn't they more than likely refer to the people of the south as being the Land of the blacks before they would themselves?
Most Egyptian art depicts them as having reddish brown skin. Reddish brown is exactly the color that skin turns when it is dyed with henna. Henna is an effective sunblocker and the Egyptians used it to dye hair, nails and skin. If there were fair skinned people living in Egypt, henna would have been an ideal thing to use against the sun.
Posts: 527 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2009
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Another thing that seems illogical to me. Alot of afrocentrists claim that all of North Africa, the Middle East, Greece and of course areas to the south had all black people. If this were true, than why would the Egyptians specifically refer to themselves as the land of the blacks?
Posts: 527 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2009
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Col4: k-m.tnwt d-sh-r.tnwt AKH [Black community. Red community.
Col5: (+kh)scroll n t-nplural HQA.wplural RA [Beatification to ye subjects (of) Ra!
The "four types" -- or better, the "subjects of Ra" -- scene depicts the sun in the 5th night hour with Heru addressing the dead. He verbally divides them into the blacks (Nile Valley folk, i.e., Egyptians and Nehesis) under his protection, and the reds (folk dwelling east or west of the Nile) under Sekhet's protection.
Heru is addressing all four types, first with a general intro to the entire party of the afterlife dead (who died that day) still in their shrouds. He "beatifies" them, reanimates them with "spirit" (breath/wind), and releases them from their shrouds. Then after all that he addresses each group in turn speaking of the origins of their creation and assigning their "patron" deity. First the RT RMTW and then in from sunrise to sunset order the AAMW, NHHSW, and TMHHW .
The NWT ideogram means neither 'people' nor 'land.' This has been explained a few times already and there's a post in the archive with the subject header "KMT NWT" detailing this. The glyph depicts a crossroads indicating a village or city, i.e. a settlement or habitation. thus the use of it to mean 'community' in its broad application for the corpus of the dead. It always appears as the determinative following the name of a city.
posted
You see alTakruri, after your painstaking representaion of factual evidence; one which I think is brilliant on your part, you get that followup response from an appropriately named poster "Simple girl" ...
obtuse:
obtuse: dense: slow to learn or understand; lacking intellectual acuity
obtusely - dumbly: in a stupid manner
obtuseness - dullness: the quality of being slow to understand
Someone who is “obtuse” is “annoyingly sensitive or slow to understand”
Fortunately, these flakey few are just noisy & bothersome, and they don't have a clue as to how this forum's members have changed so progressively since we both began posting here a few years back...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
^ Excellent exposé Takruri. I would have done the same if I had the resource to find all these past postings from past threads with the same discussion.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Wally: You see alTakruri, after your painstaking representaion of factual evidence; one which I think is brilliant on your part, you get that followup response from an appropriately named poster "Simple girl" ...
obtuse:
obtuse: dense: slow to learn or understand; lacking intellectual acuity
obtusely - dumbly: in a stupid manner
obtuseness - dullness: the quality of being slow to understand
Someone who is “obtuse” is “annoyingly sensitive or slow to understand”
Fortunately, these flakey few are just noisy & bothersome, and they don't have a clue as to how this forum's members have changed so progressively since we both began posting here a few years back...
Are you suggesting that the Egyptians never used henna to dye their skin?
Posts: 527 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Simple Girl: Why would Egyptians call themselves the land of the blacks when they depicted the people south of them as being much darker than they were? Wouldn't they more than likely refer to the people of the south as being the Land of the blacks before they would themselves?
Again 'black' as the Egyptians referred to themselves is NOT about actual complexion so much as a sacred religous concept that associates the color with the divine. Such a concept is actually widespread in Africa. The Egyptians revered the color for another reason. Unlike cultures of the Near-East and especially those of Europe, black did not embody the negative or bad like death, sorrow, evil, dirty, ugly, etc. On the contrary, it represented positive aspects, in particular it embodied the most sacred belief of the Egyptians which is that of re-birth and regeneration.
Many Egyptologists and early scholars made the mistake of taking the black painted statues and images of many tombs in into their own Western cultural concepts, and thought that they were simply "funerary" images of the "deceased." Many of these statues are actually representations of the ba, which is a spiritual aspect essential for the after-life, thus these statues don't represent death but life.
Aahotep
Ahmose-Nefertari
Ba-statue of Tut
Two images of Tut, one being reborn
I remember Horemheb taking Wally's findings as a joke that the Egyptians saw themselves as being "under a black god." But in actuality this could very well be what the Egyptians believed in! Many early gods were depicted in the color black, again to symbolize the gods' powers of re-birth and regeneration, especially gods like Osiris and Isis. Even certain royals had the privilege to be represented in art as having a black color, whenever they are thought to attain a spiritual power or divine status.
Ausar Kemwer (Osiris the Great Black)
This belief system of the color black being sacred is actually widespread throughout Africa, especially East and Central Africa. For example, in Kenya the Masai people worship their supreme god called Lengai or N'gai, who they call the Black God. Lengai, is opposed by an evil god of chaos who, interestingly enough, is called the red god! The Oromo's supreme god is Waaka who is also called Waaka Guuracha, which means Black God. Many of these peoples relate the black color to the color of the storm coulds that give rain, and to the soil that is rich and fertile. Since Egypt has not had any rain since Neolithic times, it was the soil of the banks of the Nile that expresses the gods' life-giving powers. Which is most likely derived the very term 'Kemet' which means Black-Land as in the whole country not just soil. The Egyptians called themselves the people of the black (divine) land, and to further express their connection to the divine, would even call themselves 'Kemui'/'Kem-au'(Black People). Again the name had nothing to do with skin color but was symbolical and spiritual.
quote:Most Egyptian art depicts them as having reddish brown skin. Reddish brown is exactly the color that skin turns when it is dyed with henna. Henna is an effective sunblocker and the Egyptians used it to dye hair, nails and skin. If there were fair skinned people living in Egypt, henna would have been an ideal thing to use against the sun.
LOL Incorrect! The Egyptians never dyed their skins with henna but only their gray hairs when old! Reddish-brown was actually a common and natural complexion not only among Egyptians but many black Africans. Remember, black peoples vary in complexion and are not just ebony black in complexion!
Africans with reddish-brown complexions
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Simple Girl: Are you suggesting that the Egyptians never used henna to dye their skin?
You - and do you really believe that the Ancient Egyptians used henna as a sun-blocker for their "fair" Nordic skins? - should be aware that Africans in Ancient Egypt and throughout the continent have used henna for millenniums:
quote: Henna painting is an ancient form of body art still practiced in Africa. The artist makes a paste from the leaves of the henna plant, and uses the paste to create designs on a person’s hands and feet. Both males and females wear henna designs during important events in their lives, like marriage, and initiation into adult-hood. In Sudan, the bride is decorat- ed with henna as part of her wedding preparations. The designs are thought to bring good luck and wealth to the wearer
But really, you should take the time to read the above postings by alTakruri. It may be painful at first to be confronted with this factual evidence, but it will inevitably be for your good...Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
^ Indeed. I find it funny how she even came up with such a claim, especially when there is NO evidence of Egyptians using sunblock let alone henna as one! The Egyptians specifically used henna to dye gray hairs or as body art on their hands and feet which is a common custom in Africa!
quote:Originally posted by Simple Girl: Another thing that seems illogical to me. Alot of afrocentrists claim that all of North Africa, the Middle East, Greece and of course areas to the south had all black people. If this were true, than why would the Egyptians specifically refer to themselves as the land of the blacks?
Again, they never referred to their country as "land" of blacks but simply blacks or black nation! And again it was not such much about skin color as it was spiritual beliefs about the color black!
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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You can't let some simple girl take your mind and have you chasing after chit chat nonsense. Make her produce primary documentation like the kind I gave and she can't dispute outside of her own personal opinion bereft of any scholarly level.
Thanks for the information. I don't know hieroglyphics(not yet), but a Dinka friend of mine told me that the Dinka, in their language, call themselves 'men of men'. It appears to be similar to the 'Ret na Rome - We Men above mankind', isn't it?
quote:Originally posted by Wally: Catechism: "The Egyptians called their country Kemet or Black after the color of the soil."
Western Egyptology contrived this deception from Herodotus, “Egypt is a land of black soil…We know that Libya is a redder earth.” (Herodotus, The History, book 2:12); conveniently ignoring the fact that he also mentioned that the Egyptian people were black as well. So, to anyone not familiar with the Ancient Egyptian language, this "Kemet = black soil" may seem plausible. It is not.
Here's the Mdu Ntr - Understanding Kmt
Km (to be black) used as an adjective km;kmem;kmom - black kemu - black (m) keme.t - black (f) > hime.t keme.t - "black woman" > himu.t keme.t - "black women"
Km used as a noun keme.t - any black person, place, or thing A determinative is used in order to be more specific keme.t (woman) - "the Black woman"; ie, 'divine woman' keme.t (cow) - "a Black cow" - ie, a 'sacred cow' kem - a black one (m) keme.t - a black one (f) kemu - black ones (m) kemu.t - black ones (f) kemeti - two black ones
Used as Nationality (literally): Sa Kemet - a man of Black (an Egyptian male) Sa.t Kemet - a woman of Black (an Egyptian female) Rome.t Kemet - the people of Black (Egyptians) Kemetou - Blacks (ie, 'citizens') Kememou - Black people of Black
Noun/Adjectives of Nationality Kemetu - Black's peoples (Egyptian citizens) Kmemu - Black people (the Egyptian people) Resu - Southern people (Upper Egyptians) Ret - The Men [Rot - men] - a shorthand writing - pronounced 'Rome' Ret na Rome - We Men above mankind [Rome - men;mankind] Rome n Keme - Men of Black ("Egyptians") TaMeru - Land of the Inundation people (Egyptians) Tawiu - The Two Lands people (Egyptian) [Ta;to - land]
posted
This idea that the Egyptians depicted themselves as black still doesn't hold water with me. Like I said, why would they depict themselves as having reddish to reddish brown skin and call themselves the land of the blacks when there were much darker people to the south? I mean black is black. If they were a lighter skin tone than the people to the south,than they wouldn't have called themselves black. They clearly depicted the people to the south as having black skin.
Most scholars will agree with me on this. I don't care which way you try to interpret it, the Egyptians didn't see themselves as black or they would have shown it in their art.
Posts: 527 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2009
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Please remember that many, very many, African Americans have the exact same color as the Egyptians above. Does that mean that African-Americans aren't black?
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posted
^ First of all, being black does NOT mean one must have an ebony or coal dark complexion!! Being 'black' simply means having very dark skin and black people vary in complexion.
quote:Originally posted by zarahan: Definitions of black from the dictionary
Obviously the ancient Egyptians were dark brown in complexion which is STILL considered 'black' today!
Second of all, AGAIN their reference to themselves as 'black' was NOT about actual skin complexion so much about their association with the divine and sacrity of the color black itself!
Or did you not read anything I posted above??!
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Simple Girl you are only lying to yourself if you do not consider peoples of reddish-brown as in mahogany to dark-brown as in chocolate complexions as 'black'!
Are you saying all these Egyptian royals don't appear black to you??
???
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I am not saying they the Kemities did, but the Massai,Hemba,and many others did used Red Ochre on their skins.weither they did or not they like the Hemba and the Massai are still Blacks.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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A comprehensive list of the structure and usages of perhaps the most significant word in the Ancient Egyptian language. All of these words can be found in "An Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary" by E. A. Wallis Budge, Dover, NY
Used as an adjective kem;kemem;kemom - black kemu - black (m) keme.t - black (f) hime.t keme.t - "black woman" (woman of Black) himu.t keme.t - "black women" (women of Black)
Used as a noun keme.t - any black person, place, or thing A determinative is then used to be more specific: keme.t (woman) - "the Black woman"; ie, 'divine woman' keme.t (cow) - "a Black cow" - ie, a 'sacred cow' Keme.t (nation) - "the Black nation" kem - a black one (m) keme.t - a black one (f) kemu - black ones (m) kemu.t - black ones (f) kemeti - two black ones
Used for Nationality Sa Kemet - a man of Black (an Egyptian male) Sa.t Kemet - a woman of Black (an Egyptian female) Rome.t Kemet - the people of Black (Egyptians) Kemetou - Blacks (ie, 'citizens') Kememou - Black people (of the Black nation)
Other usages Sa Kem - "Black man", a god, and son of Sa.t Kem.t - "Black woman", a goddess (page 589b) kem (papyrus) - to end, complete kem.t (papyrus) - the end, completion kemi - finished products kem khet (stick) - jet black kemwer - any Egyptian person, place or thing ('to be black' + 'to be great') Kemwer - "The Great Black" - a title of Osiris - the Ancestor of the race Kemwer (body of water) - "the Great Black sea" - the Red sea Kemwer (body of water + river bank) - a lake in the Duat (the OtherWorld) Kemwer Nteri - "the sacred great Black bulls" kemwer (fortress) - a fort or town Kemwer (water) - the god of the great Black lake Kem Amut - a black animal goddess Kemi.t-Weri.t - "the great Black woman", a goddess Kem-Neb-Mesen.t - a lion god Kem ho - "black face", a title of the crocodile Rerek kem; kemu (shield) - buckler, shield kem (wood) - black wood kem.t (stone) - black stone or powder kem.tt (plant) - a plant kemu (seed) - seeds or fruit of the kem plant kemti - "black image", sacred image or statue
Using the causative "S" S_kemi - white haired, grey-headed man (ie, to have lost blackness) S_kemkem - to destroy, overthrow, annihilate S_kemem - to blacken, to defile
Antonyms S_desher - to redden, make ruddy S_desheru - red things, bloody wounds
Some interesting Homonyms (pages 770 > ) ḳem - to behave in a seemly manner ḳemi - the south, Upper Egypt ḳem.t - reed, papyrus ḳemaa - to throw a boomerang ḳem_au - to overthrow ḳemam.t - mother, parent ḳemamu - workers (in metal, wood) ḳemḳem - tambourines ḳemd - to weep ḳemati - statue, image - same as kemti ḳema - to create ḳemaiu - created beings ḳemau;ḳemamu - The Creator
Deshret - the opposite of Kemet deshr.t - any red (ie, non-Black) person, place, or thing deshr.t (woman) - "the Red woman"; ie, 'evil woman' deshr.t (cow) - "a Red cow" - ie, the 'devil's cow' deshr - a red one (m) deshr.t - a red one (f) deshru - red ones (m) deshru.t - red ones (f) -- White or light-skinned people; devils deshreti - two red ones
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Takruri, What is it like going through life with your head in a cloud. It is black land, it is not black people and that is the way it is going to stay. The specialists in the field understand the data better than you and Wally do, obviously you are making a mistake of some kind.
But thats OK, even though this subject has long ago been decided perhaps you will have more time to plan your african attack on the middle east.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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Col4: k-m.tnwt d-sh-r.tnwt AKH [Black community. Red community.
Col5: (+kh)scroll n t-nplural HQA.wplural RA [Beatification to ye subjects (of) Ra!
The "four types" -- or better, the "subjects of Ra" -- scene depicts the sun in the 5th night hour with Heru addressing the dead. He verbally divides them into the blacks (Nile Valley folk, i.e., Egyptians and Nehesis) under his protection, and the reds (folk dwelling east or west of the Nile) under Sekhet's protection.
Heru is addressing all four types, first with a general intro to the entire party of the afterlife dead (who died that day) still in their shrouds. He "beatifies" them, reanimates them with "spirit" (breath/wind), and releases them from their shrouds. Then after all that he addresses each group in turn speaking of the origins of their creation and assigning their "patron" deity. First the RT RMTW and then in from sunrise to sunset order the AAMW, NHHSW, and TMHHW .
The NWT ideogram means neither 'people' nor 'land.' This has been explained a few times already and there's a post in the archive with the subject header "KMT NWT" detailing this. The glyph depicts a crossroads indicating a village or city, i.e. a settlement or habitation. Thus the use of it to mean 'community' in its broad application for the corpus of the dead. It always appears as the determinative following the name of a city.
quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Takruri, What is it like going through life with your head in a cloud. It is black land, it is not black people and that is the way it is going to stay. The specialists in the field understand the data better than you and Wally do, obviously you are making a mistake of some kind.
But thats OK, even though this subject has long ago been decided perhaps you will have more time to plan your african attack on the middle east.
Yeah, I'm almost certain now; this has got to be that idiot "Horemhab" or his neo-Nazi clone. He is, like "Simple girl," someone who has wandered in from the streets to interject himself into the discussion, but rarely posits any information whatsoever - merely blabbers nonsense...he is, without doubt a "conservative Republican"; a euphemism for reactionary racist and probably feels a kinship with, say, the old defeated Brit soldiers of Used-to-be-Rhodesia or with his American compatriots who took a shellacking in the Presidential election - his kind of thinking is moribund...
alTakruri, Djehuti, The Gaul, Dr. Winters, yours truly, and others here have always presented concrete factual evidence to support our views, facts culled from experts throughout the disciplines that we address; and idiots like "Horemhab," don't even bother to read the documentation - they don't want to be confused by facts - and their biggest and most child-like antic is to pretend that the evidence that we put forth is merely our opinions rather than the works of countless experts in the field.
The following are some of the expert sources that have stated the fact that the Ancient Egyptians were Black folks
The Ancient Egyptians themselves
Herodotus
Aristotle
Lucian
Apollodorus
Aeschylus
Strabo
Diodorus of Sicily
Diogenes Laertius
Ammanius Marcellinus
Count Constatine de Volney
Marius Fontanes - "Les Egyptes"
EW Budge (finally, reluctantly) - "Keeper of the Egyptian and Assyrian Antiquities, British Museum"
posted
nonsense wally? that I ask you to show me where the specialists in the field have accepted your silly theories and you call that nonsense?
If you walked into an Egyptology seminar made up of top scholars and presented this stupid racist stuff you put out they would ask you to leave. I have backed up my points with testimony from top scholars, all you have is Djehuti and Takruri.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
Originally posted in full on 08 December 2004 01:19 PM
The pages from Diop show seven usages of KM.t and km.t in words for people.
. . . .
Diop didnt do the translation. The translation comes from two European sources, one German the other French, they being 1. the Worterbuch der Agyptischen Sprache and 2. the Prolegomenes a letude de la religion egyptienne.
. . . .
The determinatives seated man and\or seated woman mean people.
. . . .
In direct literal translation km.t.nwt means black nation, where the root km (black) is an adjective suffixed by t which makes km.t a feminine noun whose meaning 'black nation' is indicated by the determinative nwt. Since km.t.nwt is a noun it can't be an adjective referring to the color of soil since no determinative for soil is given. When km.t.nwt is literally translated as the black land, the word land can only mean 'country' in the sense of 'nation.' If land in the sense of soil was meant, the word ta would precede km.t, something I have yet to see in a mdw ntr text.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Originally posted in full on 08 December 2004 02:54 PM
Please translate the following usages of km.t and show how nation rather than people is meant.
KM.t.rmt&st| ||
km.t.yw.rmt| ||
st.st KM.t.shnt
Please study elementary hieroglyphics and Kmtyw vocabulary before trying to comment on them.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Originally posted 09 December 2004 04:09 PM
This is the glyph Ta, Gardiners N16 It means land and appears at the front of words like Ta Meri.
This is the glyph xAst, Gardiners N25 It means land and appears at the end of words like Khurru or Kush.
This is the glyph niwt, Gardiners O49 It means city, town, etc,, and appears at the end of the word KM.t. Note that KM.t also appears with other determinatives and not just only with nwt.
The problem enters with our concept of the word land which can mean a parcel of land or a country or nation. The Kmtyw marked the distinction because nwt never means a parcel of land, it always mean a crossroads village town city nation, etc.
Please provide an example from a mdw ntr text where the nwt determinative means soil. What hieroglyphic dictionary gives soil as the meaning of nwt which is a glyph that depicts a crossroads not a field or a desert or some such?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
give it up Takruri, nobody outside of the goofball asylum accepts your silly theories. Kemet means black land. You do not have the academic skills to correctly use that information.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
Originally posted 10 December 2004 12:24 PM
Precisely why cannot mean black land in the sense of a parcel of land which happens to be black in color. Nwt means crossroads, village, town, city, nation. Hence logically means 'Black nation' not 'black piece of land.'
Except in this instance of deliberate obfuscation, please show texts where nwt is translated as 'land' instead of 'crossroads.' The dictionary entry for nwt is village, town, city not land. The dictionary entries for t3 and smt are land.
Further, the codage system classes niwt under O (buildings) not in the N (heaven earth and water) class where t3 and x3st are categorized. Logic dictates that KM.t.nwt cannot mean 'black land' both according to codage class and according to grammar where KM.t in KM.t.nwt is indeed a feminine noun and is not an adjective. The name of a nation is always a noun never an adjective.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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cannot mean black land in the sense of a 
Baron Dominique-Vivant Denon (engraver of Napoleon's expedition)
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