In other words, "Nehesi" does not mean "black people" but may instead be a reference to the Nubian tradition of archery.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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This is well known by any serious student of Egypt studies. Nehesy had no racial value, esp. considering that the first dynasties had Nehesy blood. Donald Redford is a biased clown.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: This is well known by any serious student of Egypt studies. Nehesy had no racial value
I know, but it is nice to see a suggestion of what Nehesi did mean rather than Breasted's "Negro" nonsense.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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^^^ Yes, it is, good find. I was under the impression that Nehesy meant "Southerner"..good to get clarity.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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^ What exactly is offensive about the title Lyinass? "wretched Kush" was a phrase the Egyptians used against their Kushite enemies like all war enemies they were given negative appellatives like 'wretched' or 'vile'. It is no more offensive than calling the Syrians "abominable".
I do find it funny how these experts try to translate nehesi to mean 'negro'. Negro is Latin for black. Yet the actual word in Egyptian that means black is Kem and the ONLY people the Egyptians called Kem are THEMSELVES!
To Truthcentric, I find that review you cite to be very interesting. That is the first I've heard of such a definition for Nehesi. Obviously the 'Nubians' were fierce warriors to be called 'stingers'. All this erroneous mistranslating and obfuscation of Nehesi to mean something racial. LOL
This reminds me of Sundiata's thread here exposing how Breasted translated the name of a Nubian ethnic group to mean 'Curly Haired Ones', as if curly hair is somehow alien or unusual to the Egyptians. LOLPosts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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To Truthcentric, I find that review you cite to be very interesting. That is the first I've heard of such a definition for Nehesi. Obviously the 'Nubians' were fierce warriors to be called 'stingers'.
Sure nHs as sting was seen here before. Ah, how soon we forget The actual meaning of Nahasou and I don't think that was the first time either.
I have had a lot of thought on that Smith citation that I'll critique in a day or two. I took Brandon's view to mean nice to see nHs translated literally instead of stereotypically in the mainstream.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Well, with the word ha meaning "face" or "South" in it (South was "up", West "right", etc in the A. Kemetian map) there are people here including myself who took it to mean Southerners, however I find it interesting. One of the glyphs to that term is also a small bird, but I think this may just be representing a letter here, don't remember.
Anywho, as alTakruri said this has probably been discussed here a number of times (the word Nhsw).
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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Did you bother to follow the link to the thread I gave above?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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This is why t3wy (the Two Lands) is a controversial term. Which two lands? t3.shmaw (UE) & t3.mehh (LE) or t3.mri (the Beloved Land) & ksh.x3st (Kush)? And then, according to who, the RT.RMT or the NHHS.W? And when?
NOTE: would've used t3.nhhsy above except no reliable translation for nhhsy as I'm wary of using southerner now as the literal translation.
You know what, what about the East & West (a.k.a. "land of the dead") within Ta Mery?
quote:Originally posted by Wally:
quote: alTakruri wrote: ... would've used t3.nhhsy above except no reliable translation for nhhsy as I'm wary of using southerner now as the literal translation...
Whaaaat????
The literal translation of Nahasu is Sudanese, and the way in which at some occasions it is written to include the ideogram "Su" indicates that the Sudanese were peoples who lived in the south. Nahasu literally does not mean south or southerner!
south, southerner
These are relative terms; if you lived in Chicago, then even someone living in Gary, Indiana a few miles away is south of you and therefore a southerner to you
- the same would be true of someone living in Tupelo, Mississippi
- or in Mexico City, Mexico
and you understand that Mexico is not politically a part of the USA.
By the same token; if you lived in the Egyptian marshlands of the north, those who lived in middle or Upper Egypt were to the south of you, and therefore southerners (resu).
As had others in the thread I disagree with it refering literally to Sudan which comes from Arabic in the sense that the word in Arabic can mean land of the blacks.
Good point about the general relative direction of the South, it's just that I had it it referred to the general region at the "front" of T3 Mry and of the world. In fact the word for face, h3, is the also the word for South (as well as for the body and for flesh) and back in Ancient Egyptian days the the maps in terms of North & South were switched / flipped 180.
posted
Did you read the post my link directly goes to? The pertinent thing was nHs as sting. Here, let me transport it to this thread now to prevent any further confusion.
quote:Originally posted 10 July, 2009 by alTakruri: We'll never really know what nHs means because it's a solo root. It goes back to the Old Kingdom where it was spelled as well as with the guinea fowl multi-literal phonogram accompanied by the twisted cord as a silent phonetic complement. So the guinea fowl glyph isn't a single alphabetic character phonogram only to replace the wavy line glyph for 'n.'
One other AEL word hash the root nHs. It bears the meaning of 'sting' as in an insect bite. But this word appears in the New Kingdom vocabulary.
[The Hebrews wrote of Kesh as "the land buzzing with wings" in reference to the prominence of flying insects there. This is no proof that the folk south of Elephantine were associated with bug bites. ]
In the past I took 'southerner' as the meaning for nHs because practically all the people known to be nHsw resided south of taShemaw (Upper Egypt). Though this is the actual sense of the word it's not its meaning. It's just a good interpretation but no AEL word for south has nHs in it.
I hope that set the matter straight. The denotation of nHs is unknown. There are two words nHs. 1 - The ancient word refers to non-Romitu non-Temehu Africans. 2 - The New Kingdom word sting in a medical papyrus.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
The big problem with Smith's idea is he's using a New Kingdom word as the etymology of an Old Kingdom word. That's more anachronistic than using an American word as the etymology for a word in Old English. (Smith is also guilty of this by applying the New Kingdom epithet "wretched Kush" to all of Egyptian history.)
On top of that nHs as sting has nothing to do with archery or ethnography, it's used in a medical book.
For archery and ethnogeography conjoined the AEs already had Ta Seti, the Land of the Bow.
Ta Seti did not apply to all Nehesi because not all Nehesi were noted archers. Wawat was what was once known as Ta Seti.x3st.
The Intyw, Medja, and Punt are not noted bowmen yet they and others are all noted as Nehesi.
Also a mere bug bite is a joke when death dealing scorpion stings are more like the effect of crack archery. None of the words for scorpion sting are nHs nor do we find scorpion sting words refering to non-Egyptian non-Libyan Africans.
I have to commend Smith for looking beyond the stereotype but in fact Erman and Grapow, whom he uses for sting, defined nHsy not by the verb 'to sting' but as 'negro' and they were wrong to do so.
Where they use south neighboring folk, southerner, and south borderland as connotations they were more on the money though the Intyw Nehesi and some of the Medja Nehesi were actually east of the Egyptian Nile (1st cataract to delta).
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Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:alTakruri: There are two words nHs. 1 - The ancient word refers to non-Romitu non-Temehu Africans. 2 - The New Kingdom word sting in a medical papyrus.
Right, I'm not confused.
The "South" connotation came about by interpreters here mainly due to the relative direction those deamed Nehesi came from.
Not confused, although this:
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: Well, with the word ha meaning...
was wrong.
Edit: Speaking of non-Romitou non-Tamehou Africans, what about the Tehenou, were they classified as Nehhesu as well?
And actually, I almost challenge the non- part of it; weren't there Kings, or at least a King named Nehesi? - ?
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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I agree, "Ta Seti" was the only Neheshi People associated with the Bow, and on top of that it was conquered and incorporated in to the Egyptian state relatively Early in the Dynastic period and was a Southern Nome of Egypt.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The big problem with Smith's idea is he's using a New Kingdom word as the etymology of an Old Kingdom word. That's more anachronistic than using an American word as the etymology for a word in Old English. (Smith is also guilty of this by applying the New Kingdom epithet "wretched Kush" to all of Egyptian history.)
On top of that nHs as sting has nothing to do with archery or ethnography, it's used in a medical book.
For archery and ethnogeography conjoined the AEs already had Ta Seti, the Land of the Bow.
Ta Seti did not apply to all Nehesi because not all Nehesi were noted archers. Wawat was what was once known as Ta Seti.x3st.
The Intyw, Medja, and Punt are not noted bowmen yet they and others are all noted as Nehesi.
Also a mere bug bite is a joke when death dealing scorpion stings are more like the effect of crack archery. None of the words for scorpion sting are nHs nor do we find scorpion sting words refering to non-Egyptian non-Libyan Africans.
I have to commend Smith for looking beyond the stereotype but in fact Erman and Grapow, whom he uses for sting, defined nHsy not by the verb 'to sting' but as 'negro' and they were wrong to do so.
Where they use south neighboring folk, southerner, and south borderland as connotations they were more on the money though the Intyw Nehesi and some of the Medja Nehesi were actually east of the Egyptian Nile (1st cataract to delta).
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Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: I agree, "Ta Seti" was the only Neheshi People associated with the Bow, and on top of that it was conquered and incorporated in to the Egyptian state relatively Early in the Dynastic period and was a Southern Nome of Egypt.
The Medjai were archers,
and Ta Seti, land of the bow - albeit in Northern Sudan, a bit South of today's Arab Republic of Egypt - was the original nome of "Kemet", whose borders grew and shrank from time to time.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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The biggest mistake is the word Nubia itself when speaking of pre-classical times. Without a context we have no idea who any author is talking about by their use of Nubians.
Look at Smith's conflated use of Nubians. Nubians are at once the Bow People and police & mercenaries of AE.
But the Ta Seti (Bow People) and the Medja (police & mercenaries) were different ethnies. The former were riverine state builders partly responsible for the establishment of pharaonic Egypt. The latter were between Nile and Red Sea acephalous pastoralists whose culture however outlasted the A-Group's Ta Seti nation.
I guess Smith doesn't mean to but the use of Nubia mistakenly conflates, interchanges, and confuses Ta Seti/Wawat Irtet Satju Yam Kerma Inty Medja Punt Irem Nemi Kush etc. with each other and is tantamount to benign racialist notions like "What's the use? Why differentiate these people? They're all just a bunch of niggers/negroes/Nubians."
And Smith definitely is against translating Nehesi as "black" but his non-specific use of Nubian more or less accomplishes the same thing, an inability to see other than an inseparable identitied amorphous mass south of Egypt.
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