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"[...]"[...] a multivariate craniometric analysis of 384 world populations is presented. It shows that the Egyptian population presented a great variability, and confirms the general opinion on the polymorphism and the geographical gradient concerning the shape of the skull: the populations of Lower Egypt are very close to those of the Maghreb, and those of Upper Egypt resemble those of Nubia, the latter being close, but not identical, to those of Sub-Saharan Africa.

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The first king of the XVIIIth dynasty, Ahmosis, had married his sister, Ahmes-Nofertari, described as Ethiopian , who was then regent, then goddess; their son Amenophis I conquered Ethiopia. We have the mummy of Nofertari: curly hair, small mouth, thin lips, straight and slightly lowered nose slightly lowered, short without being flat with wide wings, of dimensions 47 x33 mm (CHANTRE 1904, p.71). [...] The queen of the reformer Tiyi, wife of Akhenaten, of Amenophis is of commoner and Nubian origin (see her famous effigy in the Egyptian Museum of Berlin, miscegenation N°211834), which proves that miscegenation was widespread.

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One can sometimes distinguish in places the natural color of the skin, white for example in Ramses II and an anonymous princely mummy, according to FOUQUET (1886) who opened their sarcophagus. However, most of the mummies have a charred black appearance; this color comes either from a process of slow organic combustion, or from a bitumen that hinders their examination with the naked eye and that probably came from Mesopotamia and Palestine (CONNAN 1991), just as embalming resins, reserved for the wealthy, came from Lebanon (LÉCA1976). The blackening effect of "mineral oil" is mentioned in a papyrus from the Roman period (N°AE/N5158 in the Louvre) cited by Connan.

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Moreover, as SZABO (1975) points out, "light microscopy sections from a dark Mediterranean skin can be very similar to those from a Negroid skin " 1 , so it will be necessary to use finer techniques, like electron microscopy, and also examine the oral mucosa.

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The hair, generally "abundant and reddish" (CHANTRE 1904), also provides usable information: we do not find frizzy hair on the Egyptian mummies, which excludes any relationship with the populations of Central and West Africa, with the exception of the Tédas or Toubous of the Peuls of Tibesti nomads. The hair of the mummies is generally smooth or wavy (CHAMLA 1967, RABINOMASSA dyed with henna 1969, HRDY as 1978), that is often enough done still in North Africa. [...] A curl taken from their daughter Tiyi and deposited in the tomb of Tutankhamun, is qualified as auburn by Mrs DESROCHESNOBLECOURT (1966 p.65). By the technique of the trichometrogram of Sergi but on twelve subjects only, RABINO-MASSA & CHIARELLI (1972) showed that the section their sample of the hair was was elliptical indeed and that cymotriche (wavy) and not lissotriche (smooth) as in Europe nor ulotriche (thick) as in so-called Black Africa.

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Very interesting chart which has a large panel of samples including many AEs and Maghrebis :




Gizeh E serie is literally in the european cluster and it's the largest sample (more than 800 skulls) !


-----------------------------------------------------------


CONTINUITY BETWEEN ANCIENT AND MODERN EGYPTIANS AS I'VE POINTED OUT MANY TIMES :

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The morphological analysis carried out on extinct populations can also be done on the living. A data bank even more important than the one used for the skulls, has been established on 1300 peoples of the world. The results, too long to detail here, show that the position of contemporary Egypt, in relation to neighboring populations, is similar to that of ancient Egypt. There are therefore good reasons to believe that the fellah of the twentieth century is the direct descendant of the one whose representations adorn the tombs of the pharaohs, as thought by ancient authors (CHANTRE 1904, SMITH 1923).

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

^ *yawn* ALL of what is presented above has been discussed before.

Really, I suggest you do a search on the archives for what you brought up in this thread.

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Originally posted by Antalas:

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"[...]"[...] a multivariate craniometric analysis of 384 world populations is presented. It shows that the Egyptian population presented a great variability, and confirms the general opinion on the polymorphism and the geographical gradient concerning the shape of the skull: the populations of Lower Egypt are very close to those of the Maghreb, and those of Upper Egypt resemble those of Nubia, the latter being close, but not identical, to those of Sub-Saharan Africa.

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Mixed unions in the XVIIIth dynasty (which again confirms what I thought):

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The first king of the XVIIIth dynasty, Ahmosis, had married his sister, Ahmes-Nofertari, described as Ethiopian , who was then regent, then goddess; their son Amenophis I conquered Ethiopia. We have the mummy of Nofertari: curly hair, small mouth, thin lips, straight and slightly lowered nose slightly lowered, short without being flat with wide wings, of dimensions 47 x33 mm (CHANTRE 1904, p.71). [...] The queen of the reformer Tiyi, wife of Akhenaten, of Amenophis is of commoner and Nubian origin (see her famous effigy in the Egyptian Museum of Berlin, miscegenation N°211834), which proves that miscegenation was widespread.

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Ramses II was white skinned:

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One can sometimes distinguish in places the natural color of the skin, white for example in Ramses II and an anonymous princely mummy, according to FOUQUET (1886) who opened their sarcophagus. However, most of the mummies have a charred black appearance; this color comes either from a process of slow organic combustion, or from a bitumen that hinders their examination with the naked eye and that probably came from Mesopotamia and Palestine (CONNAN 1991), just as embalming resins, reserved for the wealthy, came from Lebanon (LÉCA1976). The blackening effect of "mineral oil" is mentioned in a papyrus from the Roman period (N°AE/N5158 in the Louvre) cited by Connan.

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NOW DJEHUTI PAY ATTENTION TO THIS WHICH IS SOMETHING I ALREADY TOLD YOU BEFORE WHEN YOU WERE SPAMMING THAT SKIN COLOR PAPER FROM INDIVIDUALS IN THEBES:

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Moreover, as SZABO (1975) points out, "light microscopy sections from a dark Mediterranean skin can be very similar to those from a Negroid skin " 1 , so it will be necessary to use finer techniques, like electron microscopy, and also examine the oral mucosa.

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No frizzy/kinky/afro hair in any egyptian mummy :

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The hair, generally "abundant and reddish" (CHANTRE 1904), also provides usable information: we do not find frizzy hair on the Egyptian mummies, which excludes any relationship with the populations of Central and West Africa, with the exception of the Tédas or Toubous of the Peuls of Tibesti nomads. The hair of the mummies is generally smooth or wavy (CHAMLA 1967, RABINOMASSA dyed with henna 1969, HRDY as 1978), that is often enough done still in North Africa. [...] A curl taken from their daughter Tiyi and deposited in the tomb of Tutankhamun, is qualified as auburn by Mrs DESROCHESNOBLECOURT (1966 p.65). By the technique of the trichometrogram of Sergi but on twelve subjects only, RABINO-MASSA & CHIARELLI (1972) showed that the section their sample of the hair was was elliptical indeed and that cymotriche (wavy) and not lissotriche (smooth) as in Europe nor ulotriche (thick) as in so-called Black Africa.

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LOL I never said Egyptians had kinky hair like West and Central Africans! Also, curly hair can suffice to grow Afros, and your very source even makes the exception of Tedas and Peuls (Fulani) as Sub-Saharans that have loose hair that's not kinky. North Sudanse, Ethiopians, and Somalis also have loose wavy hair. Again such hair does NOT mean 'caucasoid' or 'Eurasian'.

All of this was discussed here.

In fact, the best way to assess populations affinities via hair is using trichometric measurements of the hair shaft which was traditionally used by physical anthropologists to assess 'race'. You can read this thread here to see the trichometric data and I warn you, it's not to your liking! LOL

[

You posted the above craniometric graph before. Again, notice how Nilotes cluster away from other Sub-Saharan Africans and how Nubians (and Indians who cluster right beside) are intermediate between Nilotes and Upper Egyptians.

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Very interesting chart which have a large panel of samples including many AEs and Maghrebis :

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Gizeh E serie is literally in the european cluster and it's the largest sample (more than 800 skulls)!

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quote:

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CONTINUITY BETWEEN ANCIENT AND MODERN EGYPTIANS AS I'VE POINTED OUT MANY TIMES:

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The morphological analysis carried out on extinct populations can also be done on the living. A data bank even more important than the one used for the skulls, has been established on 1300 peoples of the world. The results, too long to detail here, show that the position of contemporary Egypt, in relation to neighboring populations, is similar to that of ancient Egypt. There are therefore good reasons to believe that the fellah of the twentieth century is the direct descendant of the one whose representations adorn the tombs of the pharaohs, as thought by ancient authors (CHANTRE 1904, SMITH 1923).

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paper : https://www.persee.fr/doc/arnil_1161-0492_1992_num_2_1_1166

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Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ *yawn* ALL of what is presented above has been discussed before.

Really, I suggest you do a search on the archives for what you brought up in this thread.

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Originally posted by Djehuti: Yes, and Keita et al. and others have already confirmed the results above. Your point?

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Originally posted by Djehuti: Actually such mixed unions have been going on since the 1st dynasty. Go and do a search on the craniometric trend of Early Dynastic royals all showing Nubian affinities.

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Originally posted by Djehuti: And pray tell, what evidence is there that Ahmose-Nefertari was "Ethiopian" or that Tiye whose family hails from Akhmim Upper Egypt was "Nubian". It seems these French authors are making assumptions based on artwork alone, by the way wasn't it YOU who said the bust of Tiye is aged wood and the dark chocolate complexion wasn't original?! LOL

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"After a long period of depopulation which affected it during a millennium, Lower Nubia is occupied at the beginning of our era by populations of a very different physiognomy from those of the pharaonic group, with negroid characters already affirmed as we have underlined. There is no doubt that the introduction of the black element in Lower Nubia comes especially from this period and is amplified in the passage from the Meroitic culture to that of group X. We can follow its progression by the increasing differences in CH2 and by the increase in variability that mainly affects the "negroid characters" (Billy, 1975). Finally, it should be noted that the upward current of black infiltration does not reach Upper Egypt, since the samples from this same period at Denderah (D', D") or Manfalut (MA) do not show any differences with respect to the Egyptian-Nubian population background established since the beginning of the dynastic era. "

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More new is the fact, already suspected in Soleb by G. Billy and M.C.Chamla (1981), that in Nubia, the nasal index, identical to the European values at the origin, increases considerably then to join the figures observed in central Africa; at the same time, the dental anthropologists (Greene 1972, 1981; Carlson and Van Gerven 1979; Small 1981; Calcagno 1986) observe a morphological reduction of the dentition. This phenomenon of nasal enlargement could not, in Nubia, be linked to the humidification of the climate since it was, on the contrary, aridified, and thus comes from genetic exchanges, in the sense of a greater contribution from Black Africa; it is up to archaeology to link this evolution with cultural mutations.

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Originally posted by Djehuti: Bitumen staining aside, how could one know what the original complexion of mummy over a thousand years old without a melanin dosage test or a genetic test of skin color alleles? Sounds like wishful thinking.

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Originally posted by Djehuti: Again, light microscopy is not as accurate as melanin dosage or skin color allele testing. Also, you do realize that the description of "dark Mediterranean" has also been applied to Sub-Saharans like Nubians and Ethiopians, do you?! LOL

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Originally posted by Djehuti: LOL I never said Egyptians had kinky hair like West and Central Africans! Also, curly hair can suffice to grow Afros, and your very source even makes the exception of Tedas and Peuls (Fulani) as Sub-Saharans that have loose hair that's not kinky. North Sudanse, Ethiopians, and Somalis also have loose wavy hair. Again such hair does NOT mean 'caucasoid' or 'Eurasian'.

All of this was discussed here.

In fact, the best way to assess populations affinities via hair is using trichometric measurements of the hair shaft which was traditionally used by physical anthropologists to assess 'race'. You can read this thread here to see the trichometric data and I warn you, it's not to your liking! LOL

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Interestingly, different genes have been associated with straight hair in Europeans and East Asians, suggesting that this trait evolved independently at least twice. The most robust associations for straight hair have implicated Trichohyalin (TCHH, a structural hair protein) in Europeans14,15, and EDAR (a cell signalling receptor) in East Asians16, illustrating the range of cellular mechanisms that can impact on hair shape.

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Recent studies have identified Asian-specific alleles of the EDAR and FGFR2 genes that are associated with thick, straight hair, suggesting that these variants arose after the divergence of Asians and Europeans .3, [...] The T allele at rs11803731 is the derived state and shows a striking geographic specificity to Europe and western-central Asia, reaching its highest frequency in Northern Europeans (Figure 1E), suggesting that the variant arose somewhere in this broad region.

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Common Variants in the Trichohyalin Gene Are Associated with Straight Hair in Europeans, 2009

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

You posted the above craniometric graph before. Again, notice how Nilotes cluster away from other Sub-Saharan Africans and how Nubians (and Indians who cluster right beside) are intermediate between Nilotes and Upper Egyptians.

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Originally posted by Djehuti: Not that interesting. Again note how Egyptians cluster close with their Nubian neighbors (as well as South Indians). Again Keita and others have demonstrated the same. Of course craniometrics are not as accurate in assessing populations relations as nonmetrics.

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Originally posted by Djehuti: Yeah and here is what an anthropologist had to say about the 26th - 30th dynasty remains known as Gizeh (E series):
"Howells data set E series....CANNOT BE CONSIDERED to be a typical Egyptian series,"--Dr. Sonia Zakrzewski (2003)

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Originally posted by Djehuti: Of course there's population continuity, who do you think all those Baladi (black natives) come from??

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The paper highlight continuity with all modern egyptians not only with your cherrypicked "baladi" who are not black btw.

Modern egyptians are the closest thing to ancient egyptians :






and certainly not these clowns XDDDD :

Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Exactly just how close do ancient Upper Egyptians cluster with Lower Nubians? The Lower Nubians of the Kulubnarti paper were around 40% SSA, so how did the Upper Egyptians form a cluster with them if Antalas is saying that this was just the result of admixture in the 18th Dynasty?

Shouldn't Upper Egyptians still align more closely with Lower Egyptians and Maghrebis if the Eurasian component in the Lower Nubians is the only thing that intimates them with Upper Egyptians?

Who plots closer to ancient Upper Egyptians... is it the almost entirely Eurasian Berbers or is it the Eurasian shifted (around 60%) Lower Nubians?

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Exactly just how close do ancient Upper Egyptians cluster with Lower Nubians? The Lower Nubians of the Kulubnarti paper were around 40% SSA, so how did the Upper Egyptians form a cluster with them if Antalas is saying that this was just the result of admixture in the 18th Dynasty?

Shouldn't Upper Egyptians still align more closely with Lower Egyptians and Maghrebis if the Eurasian component in the Lower Nubians is the only thing that intimates them with Upper Egyptians?

Who plots closer to ancient Upper Egyptians... is it the almost entirely Eurasian Berbers or is it the Eurasian shifted (around 60%) Lower Nubians?

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I never implied that an admixture event occured during the 18th dynasty ; I was strictly talking about the members of this dynasty not the whole of Egypt even though there are evidence of nubian settlements during that time period.

The kulubnarti samples are medieval and the SSA geneflow occured in the region way before this. So if early medieval lower nubians were only 40% SSA after the SSA geneflow detected during the meroitic period then this implies lower nubians had much less before that period.

As for clustering, pay attention to what I post Egypt already showed variation as today so some series appear close to the maghreb, europe, middle east or lower nubia but never with west,central or south africa.

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Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Exactly just how close do ancient Upper Egyptians cluster with Lower Nubians? The Lower Nubians of the Kulubnarti paper were around 40% SSA, so how did the Upper Egyptians form a cluster with them if Antalas is saying that this was just the result of admixture in the 18th Dynasty?

Shouldn't Upper Egyptians still align more closely with Lower Egyptians and Maghrebis if the Eurasian component in the Lower Nubians is the only thing that intimates them with Upper Egyptians?

Who plots closer to ancient Upper Egyptians... is it the almost entirely Eurasian Berbers or is it the Eurasian shifted (around 60%) Lower Nubians?

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Posts: 161 | From: England | Registered: May 2020  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
The Kulubnarti paper seems to point to mostly female mediated Eurasian introgression into Lower Nubia rather than the other way round.

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Originally posted by sudanese: What evidence (from modern scholarship) is there to suggest that Lower Nubians were more Eurasian prior to the Meroitic period?

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"After a long period of depopulation which affected it during a millennium, Lower Nubia is occupied at the beginning of our era by populations of a very different physiognomy from those of the pharaonic group, with negroid characters already affirmed as we have underlined. There is no doubt that the introduction of the black element in Lower Nubia comes especially from this period and is amplified in the passage from the Meroitic culture to that of group X. We can follow its progression by the increasing differences in CH2 and by the increase in variability that mainly affects the "negroid characters" (Billy, 1975). Finally, it should be noted that the upward current of black infiltration does not reach Upper Egypt, since the samples from this same period at Denderah (D', D") or Manfalut (MA) do not show any differences with respect to the Egyptian-Nubian population background established since the beginning of the dynastic era. "

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More new is the fact, already suspected in Soleb by G. Billy and M.C.Chamla (1981), that in Nubia, the nasal index, identical to the European values at the origin, increases considerably then to join the figures observed in central Africa; at the same time, the dental anthropologists (Greene 1972, 1981; Carlson and Van Gerven 1979; Small 1981; Calcagno 1986) observe a morphological reduction of the dentition. This phenomenon of nasal enlargement could not, in Nubia, be linked to the humidification of the climate since it was, on the contrary, aridified, and thus comes from genetic exchanges, in the sense of a greater contribution from Black Africa; it is up to archaeology to link this evolution with cultural mutations.

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by SlimJim:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Exactly just how close do ancient Upper Egyptians cluster with Lower Nubians? The Lower Nubians of the Kulubnarti paper were around 40% SSA, so how did the Upper Egyptians form a cluster with them if Antalas is saying that this was just the result of admixture in the 18th Dynasty?

Shouldn't Upper Egyptians still align more closely with Lower Egyptians and Maghrebis if the Eurasian component in the Lower Nubians is the only thing that intimates them with Upper Egyptians?

Who plots closer to ancient Upper Egyptians... is it the almost entirely Eurasian Berbers or is it the Eurasian shifted (around 60%) Lower Nubians?

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Pre-Dynastic Upper Egytians generally cluster closer to Lower Nubians than they do to Lower Egyptians, this trend continues to a certain extent into the Old Kingdom, but pretty quickly Upper Egyptian skulls look more and more like Lower Egyptian ones over time, this trend started from the Early Dynastic period, maybe even late Pre-dynastic but I'd have to check again.
Also, Berbers are around 20% SSA-like, so not really "almost entirely Eurasian".

The pic Antalas posted shows the Upper Egyptian centroid is closest to Nubia-C, Nubia-A, Copt and Kerma, the Nubian centroid is situated close to Badarians and Naqadans, and so is the pooled Somali-Oromo sample. It clearly shows a lot of overlap/appreciable affinities between Upper Egyptians and Lower Nubians.
Keep in mind Neolithic Europeans aren't identical to modern Euros, some of them they show affinities to Africans that modern Euros don't show, such as LBK clutering closest with Moroccans, or Nea Nikomedeia clusteing close with Somalis (Brace 2005), look at where the Neolithic Spain sample plots and compare to where the Classical Greek sample(Hellenistic period?) plots.

And no, ancient Egyptians will share SSA-like ancestry with Nubians as well as Eurasian-like ancestry, but lower amounts of course.

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Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Antalas

The Kulubnarti paper demonstrates that the Eurasian component found in that Lower Nubian population was mostly female mediated, and that the Eurasian component was introduced long after Kush had already been established.

1981 is not modern scholarship.

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Posts: 161 | From: England | Registered: May 2020  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by SlimJim:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Antalas

The Kulubnarti paper demonstrates that the Eurasian component found in that Lower Nubian population was mostly female mediated, and that the Eurasian component was introduced long after Kush had already been established.

1981 is not modern scholarship.

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A portion of the Kulubnarti genomes could be modelled using the PN genomes, some of those remains were 4000+ years old, so the Eurasian component was definitely present before Kush was even established. You also have remains like Al khiday that shift away from SSA remains and instead cluster with MENA rich Lower Nubians, those remains are 14,000 years old.... So some of the Eurasian component is very very old within that region.

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Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
[QB] Antalas

The Kulubnarti paper demonstrates that the Eurasian component found in that Lower Nubian population was mostly female mediated, and that the Eurasian component was introduced long after Kush had already been established.

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The inferred dates of admixture are significantly heterogeneous , providing compelling evidence that the admixture did not all occur at a single time. Considering the twenty individuals who also have 14C dates as well as DATES estimates allows us additional insight into the timing of admixture. Here, using calibrated 14C dates, we observe point estimates ranging from ∼200 BCE (95% CI, ∼490 BCE–100 CE) to ∼660 CE (95% CI, 470– 850 CE), confirming that waves of admixture possibly over roughly a millennium could have contributed to the formation of the Kulubnarti gene pool.

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Originally posted by sudanese: 1981 is not modern scholarship.

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

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Originally posted by SlimJim:
Your forgetting that Nubians would have also experienced Eurasian/Levantine gene flow from the North. When looking at Natufian/Neolithic Farmer proportions relative to Dinka in most modern Horners and many pastoral Neolithic samples, they come out to a population who would have been around 40% SSA, and these groups Nile Valley ancestors would have largely left Sudan/Egypt no later than the Bronze age, so well before this extra SSA geneflow.

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Antalas

I'll defer to SlimJim since he seems to be very knowledgeable about ancient Nile Valley populations. It seems that I was wrong and that Lower Nubians had these proportions for a very long time.

If as SlimJim says that Neolithic Lower Nubians and pastoral Horn African populations were around 40% SSA and that Badarians and Naqadans clustered closer to them than they do to Lower Egyptians, then that's not a win for you.

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

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Originally posted by SlimJim:
Your forgetting that Nubians would have also experienced Eurasian/Levantine gene flow from the North. When looking at Natufian/Neolithic Farmer proportions relative to Dinka in most modern Horners and many pastoral Neolithic samples, they come out to a population who would have been around 40% SSA, and these groups Nile Valley ancestors would have largely left Sudan/Egypt no later than the Bronze age, so well before this extra SSA geneflow.

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Depends we actually also detect a SSA geneflow during the middle kingdom in Lower nubia and even upper egypt (el Kubanieh) and as you can see the diversity is quite important already during pre-dynastic/early dynastic eras so I don't think you can apply those values to all egyptians or even all upper egyptians.

also if I'm not mistaken 40% SSA is lower than the average values in the Horn

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Posts: 161 | From: England | Registered: May 2020  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Antalas

I'll defer to SlimJim since he seems to be very knowledgeable about ancient Nile Valley populations. It seems that I was wrong and that Lower Nubians had these proportions for a very long time.

If as SlimJim says that Neolithic Lower Nubians and pastoral Horn African populations were around 40% SSA and that Badarians and Naqadans clustered closer to them than they do to Lower Egyptians, then that's not a win for you.

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I already answered to his 40% figure and his claims are based on the picture I posted if you haven't noticed anyway the chart also shows that nubians themselves were not homogeneous and naqada appears even closer to Europeans than the upper egyptian centroid. Most AE samples appear much more eurasian shifted than nubians or somalis and knowing that the latter already have substantial amount of Eurasian ancestry you know what to conclude...

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Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Antalas

I'll defer to SlimJim since he seems to be very knowledgeable about ancient Nile Valley populations. It seems that I was wrong and that Lower Nubians had these proportions for a very long time.

If as SlimJim says that Neolithic Lower Nubians and pastoral Horn African populations were around 40% SSA and that Badarians and Naqadans clustered closer to them than they do to Lower Egyptians, then that's not a win for you.

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Posts: 161 | From: England | Registered: May 2020  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by SlimJim:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Antalas

I'll defer to SlimJim since he seems to be very knowledgeable about ancient Nile Valley populations. It seems that I was wrong and that Lower Nubians had these proportions for a very long time.

If as SlimJim says that Neolithic Lower Nubians and pastoral Horn African populations were around 40% SSA and that Badarians and Naqadans clustered closer to them than they do to Lower Egyptians, then that's not a win for you.

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Well I think its a little more complex than that. In most metric and non-metric cranial studies early Upper Egyptians despite being close to Afro Asiatic Horners, still show affinties to Late Period Northerners, who we know were extremely genetically similar to modern Egyptians, generally, most Early Dynastic Egyptians remains fall on a spectrum between Horners and modern Egyptians, they don't flat out plot right on top in most cases.
I think Horners may have retained a similar ratio of Indigenous Egyptian(Al Khiday-like?) + Levantine Farmer ancestry to Early Upper Egyptians, and this is part of the reason they cluster closely, rather than similar Eurasian:SSA proportions.

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Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by SlimJim:
I'm extrapolating Natufian/Levantine Farmer and Dinka proportions to Lower Nubians, not Egyptians, its pretty consistent between the Pastoral Neolithic samples and most modern Horners. The most Eurasian shifted East African pastoralist sample was about 30% SSA when the Mota ancestry was accounted for, so in any case, not too far from modern Horners, but even then the majority of the samples were 40-45% SSA with the Mota accounted for, I think most lower Nubians will fall between 35-55% SSA, with an avg of around 40-45%.

Semitic/Cushitic Eritreans and Northern Ethiopians are about 40% SSA, estimates generally range from 35-45. Somalis are about 55% SSA, they are quite Nilote shifted relative to other Horners. [/QB]

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Wait, so Europeans are somehow closer to Naqadans than the Upper Egyptian centroid that includes other Upper Egyptian Predynastic cultures like the Badarians?

Correct me if I've misinterpreted what you're saying here. [/QB]

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The widespread appearance of small projectile points comparable to Levantine Pottery Neolithic ones in the northern half of the Egyptian Western Desert including the Fayum suggests that socioeconomic contacts across the southern Levant, Negev, Sinai and northeastern Africa became frequent and fast in the late 7th - early 6th millennia cal.BC. Through these contacts and probably the establishment of dense kin networks during this period, information about arable land in Egypt would have accumulated sufficiently on the side of Levantine farmer-herders, and an idea about wheat/barley farming and sheep/goat herding would have been acquired on the side of Egyptian foragers. Levantine farmer-herders would have had little reluctance to migrate, once the information about potential destinations was acquired, and routes were defined following kinship connections.

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Naqada II (c. 3,500–3,200 BC), or Gerzean Period from the site of El-Gerzeh, in which are recorded the first attestations of contacts with the Near East, in particular with Canaan and the coast of Biblo; and Naqada III (c. 3,200–3,000 BC), or Dynasty 0, a period that sees the formation of the Egyptian state taking place. This period is called Dynasty 0 since we have only the names of some sovereigns at the head of independent kingdoms who were fighting to dominate the region. This is a period of technological, social, and political innovations

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Evidence of Neolithic migration from the Near East is supported by the introduction of domestic animals like cows, sheep and goats to North africa.

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Originally posted by SlimJim:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Antalas

The Kulubnarti paper demonstrates that the Eurasian component found in that Lower Nubian population was mostly female mediated, and that the Eurasian component was introduced long after Kush had already been established.

1981 is not modern scholarship.

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A portion of the Kulubnarti genomes could be modelled using the PN genomes, some of those remains were 4000+ years old, so the Eurasian component was definitely present before Kush was even established. You also have remains like Al khiday that shift away from SSA remains and instead cluster with MENA rich Lower Nubians, those remains are 14,000 years old.... So some of the Eurasian component is very very old within that region.

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Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

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Originally posted by SlimJim:
I'm extrapolating Natufian/Levantine Farmer and Dinka proportions to Lower Nubians, not Egyptians, its pretty consistent between the Pastoral Neolithic samples and most modern Horners. The most Eurasian shifted East African pastoralist sample was about 30% SSA when the Mota ancestry was accounted for, so in any case, not too far from modern Horners, but even then the majority of the samples were 40-45% SSA with the Mota accounted for, I think most lower Nubians will fall between 35-55% SSA, with an avg of around 40-45%.

Semitic/Cushitic Eritreans and Northern Ethiopians are about 40% SSA, estimates generally range from 35-45. Somalis are about 55% SSA, they are quite Nilote shifted relative to other Horners.

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Then I suppose we both agree that such values were most likely lower in Egypt (including for upper egyptians). Also how do modern upper egyptians behave with such model ? I of course don't buy the idea that modern egyptians are only 10-15% SSA especially not upper egyptians.

And interesting, I didn't know some eritreans/ethiopians could reach such level of eurasian ancestry. [/QB]

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Originally posted by Doug M:
What in the world is a PN genome?

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Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:

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Originally posted by SlimJim:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Antalas

The Kulubnarti paper demonstrates that the Eurasian component found in that Lower Nubian population was mostly female mediated, and that the Eurasian component was introduced long after Kush had already been established.

1981 is not modern scholarship.

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A portion of the Kulubnarti genomes could be modelled using the PN genomes, some of those remains were 4000+ years old, so the Eurasian component was definitely present before Kush was even established. You also have remains like Al khiday that shift away from SSA remains and instead cluster with MENA rich Lower Nubians, those remains are 14,000 years old.... So some of the Eurasian component is very very old within that region.

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What in the world is a PN genome? Please explain and how does it prove Eurasian ancstry in 14,000 year old Lower Nubians? How do those remains show "Eurasian" affinity? I fail to see how any of what you said makes sense. Namely because you have provided no data or any papers to support what you are saying. There is no 15,000 year old DNA from Sudan that we can use to understand what DNA was present. And I would argue that many of those so-called "Eurasian" lineages were always present in the Nile Valley because the Nile Valley is a corridor for human migrations out of Africa. On top of that the rise of agriculture in Africa is likewise indigenous as there are numerous examples of behaviors related to harvesting wild barley 10 thousand years before the domestication of barley elsewhere. So I don't agree that the "neolithic" in Africa is based on Eurasian mass migration into the Nile Valley. Likewise, most of this discussion about "sub saharans" vs "north Africans" assumes that Africa has a limited subset of DNA lineages that are indigenous. Which is mostly the result of having more ancient DNA from Eurasia than Africa. I would assume some lineages that are now called "Eurasian" have been present going back over 20,000 years in North Africa and along the Nile. And unfortunately modern researchers seem obsessed in using Kenya, Nigeria and Tanzania as the sole "African" DNA populations in many DNA studies, while skipping over Sudan all together. If Sudanese are black and have so-called "Eurasian" genes then so can the ancient and modern Egyptians. But of course that would invalid many assumptions of these DNA models.

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Originally posted by SlimJim:
Yhh I agree it would have been lower in Egypt of course, that goes without saying tbh. It’s hard to comment on modern Upper Egyptians because I don’t think I’ve seen a single study that hasn’t gotten most, if not all of their Egyptian samples from Cairo, also I can’t think of any craniofacial analyses that compare modern Upper Egyptians to ancients other than the Batrawi study but his methodology was said to be quite flawed and outdated so it’s hard to say at this time.

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Maghreb populations are closer to European and Middle Eastern populations while Upper Egyptian populations show more affinities with sub-Saharan and East African populations. Our work also reveals a clear and significant genetic differentiation between Maghreb Berbers and Egyptian Berbers, with the latter showing more affinities with East African populations.

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Originally posted by SlimJim:

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Originally posted by Doug M:

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Originally posted by SlimJim:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Antalas

The Kulubnarti paper demonstrates that the Eurasian component found in that Lower Nubian population was mostly female mediated, and that the Eurasian component was introduced long after Kush had already been established.

1981 is not modern scholarship.

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A portion of the Kulubnarti genomes could be modelled using the PN genomes, some of those remains were 4000+ years old, so the Eurasian component was definitely present before Kush was even established. You also have remains like Al khiday that shift away from SSA remains and instead cluster with MENA rich Lower Nubians, those remains are 14,000 years old.... So some of the Eurasian component is very very old within that region.

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What in the world is a PN genome? Please explain and how does it prove Eurasian ancstry in 14,000 year old Lower Nubians? How do those remains show "Eurasian" affinity? I fail to see how any of what you said makes sense. Namely because you have provided no data or any papers to support what you are saying. There is no 15,000 year old DNA from Sudan that we can use to understand what DNA was present. And I would argue that many of those so-called "Eurasian" lineages were always present in the Nile Valley because the Nile Valley is a corridor for human migrations out of Africa. On top of that the rise of agriculture in Africa is likewise indigenous as there are numerous examples of behaviors related to harvesting wild barley 10 thousand years before the domestication of barley elsewhere. So I don't agree that the "neolithic" in Africa is based on Eurasian mass migration into the Nile Valley. Likewise, most of this discussion about "sub saharans" vs "north Africans" assumes that Africa has a limited subset of DNA lineages that are indigenous. Which is mostly the result of having more ancient DNA from Eurasia than Africa. I would assume some lineages that are now called "Eurasian" have been present going back over 20,000 years in North Africa and along the Nile. And unfortunately modern researchers seem obsessed in using Kenya, Nigeria and Tanzania as the sole "African" DNA populations in many DNA studies, while skipping over Sudan all together. If Sudanese are black and have so-called "Eurasian" genes then so can the ancient and modern Egyptians. But of course that would invalid many assumptions of these DNA models.

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PN=Pastoral Neolithic.

The 14,000 year old Al khiday remains clusters away from the predominantly SSA Jebel Sahaba/Wadi Halfa remains and towards the MENA rich Lower Nubians, it’s not hard to see how this allows for a portion of the Eurasian/MENA component to be pushed back to the Mesolithic/Palaeolithic, the alternative is that the Eurasian ancestry found in the Nile Valley is all Neolithic/Chalcolithic/Bronze Age and that ancient Egyptians are essentially Neolithic Levantines + some SSA. I didn’t say anything about mass Levantine migration, that’s exactly what I’m arguing against by saying the Eurasian affinity in Early Egyptians will largely be native to the region and quite old. I don’t think you know what your arguing half the time tbch and lol at you having the audacity to say I don’t post data, as if every single one of your posts aren’t filled with nothing but ideology/politics.

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Originally posted by Doug M:

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Originally posted by SlimJim:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:

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Originally posted by SlimJim:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Antalas

The Kulubnarti paper demonstrates that the Eurasian component found in that Lower Nubian population was mostly female mediated, and that the Eurasian component was introduced long after Kush had already been established.

1981 is not modern scholarship.

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A portion of the Kulubnarti genomes could be modelled using the PN genomes, some of those remains were 4000+ years old, so the Eurasian component was definitely present before Kush was even established. You also have remains like Al khiday that shift away from SSA remains and instead cluster with MENA rich Lower Nubians, those remains are 14,000 years old.... So some of the Eurasian component is very very old within that region.

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What in the world is a PN genome? Please explain and how does it prove Eurasian ancstry in 14,000 year old Lower Nubians? How do those remains show "Eurasian" affinity? I fail to see how any of what you said makes sense. Namely because you have provided no data or any papers to support what you are saying. There is no 15,000 year old DNA from Sudan that we can use to understand what DNA was present. And I would argue that many of those so-called "Eurasian" lineages were always present in the Nile Valley because the Nile Valley is a corridor for human migrations out of Africa. On top of that the rise of agriculture in Africa is likewise indigenous as there are numerous examples of behaviors related to harvesting wild barley 10 thousand years before the domestication of barley elsewhere. So I don't agree that the "neolithic" in Africa is based on Eurasian mass migration into the Nile Valley. Likewise, most of this discussion about "sub saharans" vs "north Africans" assumes that Africa has a limited subset of DNA lineages that are indigenous. Which is mostly the result of having more ancient DNA from Eurasia than Africa. I would assume some lineages that are now called "Eurasian" have been present going back over 20,000 years in North Africa and along the Nile. And unfortunately modern researchers seem obsessed in using Kenya, Nigeria and Tanzania as the sole "African" DNA populations in many DNA studies, while skipping over Sudan all together. If Sudanese are black and have so-called "Eurasian" genes then so can the ancient and modern Egyptians. But of course that would invalid many assumptions of these DNA models.

---

PN=Pastoral Neolithic.

The 14,000 year old Al khiday remains clusters away from the predominantly SSA Jebel Sahaba/Wadi Halfa remains and towards the MENA rich Lower Nubians, it’s not hard to see how this allows for a portion of the Eurasian/MENA component to be pushed back to the Mesolithic/Palaeolithic, the alternative is that the Eurasian ancestry found in the Nile Valley is all Neolithic/Chalcolithic/Bronze Age and that ancient Egyptians are essentially Neolithic Levantines + some SSA. I didn’t say anything about mass Levantine migration, that’s exactly what I’m arguing against by saying the Eurasian affinity in Early Egyptians will largely be native to the region and quite old. I don’t think you know what your arguing half the time tbch and lol at you having the audacity to say I don’t post data, as if every single one of your posts aren’t filled with nothing but ideology/politics.

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I am asking because you basically are saying lower Sudan shifted towards Eurasians with no source. That isn't ideology, it just sounds like you are spreading misinformation.

So again where is the source for this claim of Al Khiday shifting towards Eurasian affinity 14,000 years ago? And what source is there for a PN genetic marker in Africa considering the AFRICAN PN started in the Sahel and Upper Nile.

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posted                      

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Originally posted by SlimJim:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:

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Originally posted by SlimJim:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:

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Originally posted by SlimJim:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Antalas

The Kulubnarti paper demonstrates that the Eurasian component found in that Lower Nubian population was mostly female mediated, and that the Eurasian component was introduced long after Kush had already been established.

1981 is not modern scholarship.

---

A portion of the Kulubnarti genomes could be modelled using the PN genomes, some of those remains were 4000+ years old, so the Eurasian component was definitely present before Kush was even established. You also have remains like Al khiday that shift away from SSA remains and instead cluster with MENA rich Lower Nubians, those remains are 14,000 years old.... So some of the Eurasian component is very very old within that region.

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What in the world is a PN genome? Please explain and how does it prove Eurasian ancstry in 14,000 year old Lower Nubians? How do those remains show "Eurasian" affinity? I fail to see how any of what you said makes sense. Namely because you have provided no data or any papers to support what you are saying. There is no 15,000 year old DNA from Sudan that we can use to understand what DNA was present. And I would argue that many of those so-called "Eurasian" lineages were always present in the Nile Valley because the Nile Valley is a corridor for human migrations out of Africa. On top of that the rise of agriculture in Africa is likewise indigenous as there are numerous examples of behaviors related to harvesting wild barley 10 thousand years before the domestication of barley elsewhere. So I don't agree that the "neolithic" in Africa is based on Eurasian mass migration into the Nile Valley. Likewise, most of this discussion about "sub saharans" vs "north Africans" assumes that Africa has a limited subset of DNA lineages that are indigenous. Which is mostly the result of having more ancient DNA from Eurasia than Africa. I would assume some lineages that are now called "Eurasian" have been present going back over 20,000 years in North Africa and along the Nile. And unfortunately modern researchers seem obsessed in using Kenya, Nigeria and Tanzania as the sole "African" DNA populations in many DNA studies, while skipping over Sudan all together. If Sudanese are black and have so-called "Eurasian" genes then so can the ancient and modern Egyptians. But of course that would invalid many assumptions of these DNA models.

---

PN=Pastoral Neolithic.

The 14,000 year old Al khiday remains clusters away from the predominantly SSA Jebel Sahaba/Wadi Halfa remains and towards the MENA rich Lower Nubians, it’s not hard to see how this allows for a portion of the Eurasian/MENA component to be pushed back to the Mesolithic/Palaeolithic, the alternative is that the Eurasian ancestry found in the Nile Valley is all Neolithic/Chalcolithic/Bronze Age and that ancient Egyptians are essentially Neolithic Levantines + some SSA. I didn’t say anything about mass Levantine migration, that’s exactly what I’m arguing against by saying the Eurasian affinity in Early Egyptians will largely be native to the region and quite old. I don’t think you know what your arguing half the time tbch and lol at you having the audacity to say I don’t post data, as if every single one of your posts aren’t filled with nothing but ideology/politics.

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I am asking because you basically are saying lower Sudan shifted towards Eurasians with no source. That isn't ideology, it just sounds like you are spreading misinformation.

So again where is the source for this claim of Al Khiday shifting towards Eurasian affinity 14,000 years ago? And what source is there for a PN genetic marker in Africa considering the AFRICAN PN started in the Sahel and Upper Nile.

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Wadi Halfa/Jebel Sahaba were strongly SSA in their morphology and had little to no affinity to Eurasian/MENA admixed people, so its likely they were predominantly SSA, particularly Nilotic like.

Al Khiday, rather than clustering with Jebel Sahaba, cluters with MENA rich Nubians such as Kerma and C group, so some of the Eurasian/MENA affinity found in ancient Lower Nubia and Egypt, would date back to the Mesolithic.
https://imgur.com/a/dehde43

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ome researchers posit population continuity between Late Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers of the late Pleistocene and Holocene agriculturalists from Lower (northern) Nubia, in northeast Africa. Substantial craniodental differences in these time-successive groups are suggested to result from in situ evolution. Specifically, these populations are considered a model example for subsistence-related selection worldwide in the transition to agriculture. Others question continuity, with findings indicating that the largely homogeneous Holocene populations differ significantly from late Pleistocene Lower Nubians. If the latter are representative of the local populace, post-Pleistocene discontinuity is implied. So who was ancestral to the Holocene agriculturalists? Dental morphological analyses of 18 samples (1075 individuals), including one dated to the 12th millennium BCE from Al Khiday, near the Upper Nubian border, may provide an answer. It is the first Late Palaeolithic sample (n = 55) recovered within the region in approximately 50 years. Using the Arizona State University Dental Anthropology System to record traits and multivariate statistics to estimate biological affinities, Al Khiday is comparable to several Holocene samples, yet also highly divergent from contemporaneous Lower Nubians. Thus, population continuity is indicated after all, but with late Pleistocene Upper-rather than Lower Nubians as originally suggested-assuming dental traits are adequate proxies for ancient DNA.

....

Two-dimensional MDS of 36-trait MMD distances among Late Palaeolithic Gebel Sahaba (GSA) and Al Khiday (AKH), pooled Lower (LNU) and Upper (UNU) Holocene Nubian samples from the present study, and 12 early Holocene and historic samples from West, Central and East sub-Saharan Africa (details in the electronic supplementary material, Note S3 and table S7). MDS Kruskal's stress formula 1 = 0.214 and r2 = 0.787. (Online version in colour.)

A sub-Saharan population in late Pleistocene Nubia should not be unexpected, given northward expansions of Sahelian vegetation and sub-Saharan fauna during Saharan ‘green’ periods; the most recent initiated 15 000 BP [67], before its maximum around 9000 BP [67–69]. It may seem surprising that these apparent migrants originated so far away, but many well-watered migration routes were available then [22,26,68]. In any event, information on biological distinctiveness and non-local derivation is not novel, as mentioned. Nevertheless, diachronic change in a continuous, geographically stable Lower Nubian population from the late Pleistocene onwards is still proposed as a viable explanation [3].

What is new, however, is the 12th millennium Al Khiday sample. None of the crania has been reconstructed but they appear robust (electronic supplementary material, figures S5 and S6), perhaps not unlike contemporaneous Lower Nubians, northwest African Iberomaurusians [29] or Central African Ishango [64]. Odontometrics have also not been recorded, but all teeth appear much larger than more recent samples, again not unlike the above material [27]. Yet, compared to Gebel Sahaba, Al Khiday teeth are simpler like in Holocene Nubians (electronic supplementary material, table S5; figure 2). In particular, distances with the Hierakonpolis C-Group and five Upper Nubian samples do not differ significantly. However, Al Khiday also expresses traits indicative of sub-Saharan origin ([57,65,66]; electronic supplementary material, Note S3), but like geographically proximate East Africans and one Central African sample (electronic supplementary material, Note S3, table S7; figure 3). Site location is a likely factor, as during humid periods it would literally have been in ‘sub’-Saharan Africa. Of course, regardless of climate, the Nile and tributaries acted as north-south migration routes during the whole of prehistory. Evidence of exchange is seen by an increase in sub-Saharan-like traits between Lower and Upper Nubian Holocene samples (figure 2; electronic supplementary material, table S1, Note S3).

On the above bases, selection did not account for craniodental changes between the Lower Nubian late Pleistocene and Holocene samples studied by continuity proponents. The Wadi Halfa/Gebel Sahaba/Tushka population, whether in residence for a few generations or a thousand years, contributed little, if anything, to the Holocene gene pool for in situ evolution to occur. However, a candidate ancestral population was present. While divergent from some, Late Palaeolithic Al Khiday is closer to all samples than Gebel Sahaba (electronic supplementary material, table S5). From this population then, craniofacial reduction relative to the masticatory-functional hypothesis [8,9] cannot be ruled out, given indications of Al Khiday robusticity. Neither can selection for size reduction in all teeth following the Pleistocene [1,16,18]. However, the lack of reduction in dental morphological complexity does not support in situ caries selection [7,20] in this Upper Nubian scenario.

In summary, the most parsimonious explanation is ancestors of Holocene agriculturalists were in Nubia—just not at Wadi Halfa, Gebel Sahaba, and Tushka. Although cultural diffusion with the incorporation of non-local resources occurred [70,71], with perhaps some immigration, it is unnecessary to hypothesize a significant post-Pleistocene influx of agriculturalists. The results suggest most future Nubian agriculturalists were in residence the entire time, though previously in the guise of Neolithic agro-pastoralists and intensive collectors. It would seem likely that, soil deflation aside, more Late Palaeolithic skeletal remains akin to Al Khiday may yet be discovered, possibly including Lower Nubia. So, long-term population continuity appears likely after all, perhaps including in situ selection for a reduction in cranial robusticity, as well as dental size (only), during the transition from hunting–gathering to agriculture.

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Originally posted by SlimJim:
Your acting dumb, I know you know that Lower Nubians generally shift away from predominantly SSA groups and towards MENA rich people such as Somalis, Eritreans/Ethiopians, Egyptians, Maghrebis etc... So if Al Khiday shifts away from the predominantly SSA Jebel Sahaba sample and towards MENA admixed folks then its obvious Al Khiday harbors some of that MENA/Eurasian-like ancestry.


https://imgur.com/a/Vh1m56N
You think Lower Nubians wont have Eurasian-like ancestry when 4000 year old Kenyans who hail from Sudan/Egypt carry significant amounts of Natufian and even a little bit of Late period Egyptian ancestry(Abusir), which means the Abusir profile may have existed since the Old Kingdom.

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Originally posted by SlimJim:
What image are you on about?
Some of the reference populations despite being African are rich in MENA/Eurasian related ancestry such as C group, Kerma, A group etc... This is obvious due to the fact that they cluster well away from predominantly SSA groups and closer to intermediate groups such as Afro Asiatic speaking Horners and North Africans. I shouldn't have to explain this to someone who has been here since 2005.


"Our qpAdm modeling reveals that the PN individuals had
substantial proportions of all three ancestry components
(~40% each for those represented by Dinka and by the Chal-
colithic Israel individuals, and ~20% related to Mota; Fig. 3
and tables S8 and S9), with no evidence of western African-
related ancestry. "
https://www.docdroid.net/ehZu0iU/ancient-dna-reveals-a-multistep-spread-of-the-first-herders-into-sub-saharan-africa-prendergast-et-al-2019-pdf#page=3


East African pastoralists are important in the study on Nubia/Egypt because they literally hail from that region so their genomes can give you a snapshot on what agro-pastoralists along this Nile looked like IMO.
https://imgur.com/a/Vh1m56N
Most of the Mota in these pastoralists was picked up in Ethiopia/SE Africa, so their Sudanese ancestors would have had even less SSA ancestry, looking at their Natufian, Late period Egyptian and Taf relative to the Dinka, they're generally around 45% Dinka and 55% Natufian, AE and Taf. Either way their heavily MENA in ancestry. This new Kerma DNA will be the same.

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Originally posted by SlimJim:
A portion of the Kulubnarti genomes could be modelled using the PN genomes, some of those remains were 4000+ years old, so the Eurasian component was definitely present before Kush was even established. You also have remains like Al khiday that shift away from SSA remains and instead cluster with MENA rich Lower Nubians, those remains are 14,000 years old.... So some of the Eurasian component is very very old within that region.

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Where is the source of your information that the 14,000 year old remains from Al Khiday shifted towards Eurasians? I already get the later DNA studies talking of later Nubian mixture, but that is not what I am asking you about. You keep avoiding that specific question I asked you about. I assume you had to read it somewhere so where is it or did you just state this yourself without any specific study or paper that you saw it in? Because again, when I look at papers on Al Khiday, like the one I posted, there is no Eurasian reference population included in any analysis of the remains from 14,000 years ago. And like I mentioned earlier there is no DNA from 14,000 years ago in Sudan so we don't know what lineages were present. But we do know that populations in the area (Wadi Halfa, Wadi Kubbaniya, Lower Sudan) were already processing wild grain long before the arrival of any "neolithic assemblage" from Eurasia. Al Khiday is much further South of that near Khartoum.

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Due to the preservation condition of the Sudanesesites and post-depositional anthropogenic disturbance(Salvatori, 2012; Usai, 2014), the deposits are usually badly disturbed and archaeo-botanic evidence is not well-preserved, if at all. Some suggestion in this regard comes from a study on dental calculus removed from the teeth of Al Khiday individuals. This study indicated theuse of
Cyperus rotundus tubers (a C4 plant) in the pre-Mesolithic period, and wheat since the Neolithic (Buck-ley et al., 2014). The only archaeo-botanical indications we have from contemporaneous Mesolithic sites are fromseed-casts in pottery including Sorghum sp., Panicum sp.,Setaria sp., and Echinochloa sp. (Magid, 1995, 2003;Fuller and Smith, 2004). However, excluding the few complete specimens with clear red and yellow ochre stains, the numerous grinding stones and grinders recovered in Mesolithic sites suggest that botanical products were milled by these people.

CONCLUSION
The isotope study of the three populations at Al Khiday 2 demonstrates basic differences that can be explained, at least partially, as the output of a changing environment and food availability; a factor that must consider the distribution of natural resources, including cultural and social choices.The changes in subsistence strategies from the pre-Mesolithic to the Neolithic, and also the Meroitic, can beconsidered as a transition from hunting-gathering-fishing to cultivation-herding. As suggested by isotope analyses, the diet of the pre-Mesolithic population,focused strongly on hunting with a crucial contributionof C3 and C4 plants, seeds, and tubers. Unfortunately, the contribution of fish contributing to this subsistence system cannot be assessed due to lack of collagen. Pre-Mesolithic humans and Mesolithic animals have nearly the same values of O carb . This could mean that both periods experienced similar climatic conditions and that water was widely available.

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Nearly 70 graves belong to a pre-Mesolithic phase, showing an unusual ritual of body deposition (Usai et al. 2010). The individual was buried in a prone and elongated position, a rare ritual only attested to in Africa at Wadi Kubbaniya (Wendorf and Schild 1986) and Jebel Moya (Addison 1949; Brass 2009 and personal communication 2010),
3 as well as in the Near East at several Natufian sites(Bocquetin 2005) and in Europe at Dolni Vestonice (Klima 1987). Pre-Mesolithic burials contained no grave goods, apart from the individual in Grave 153 who had an ivory bracelet at the right wrist (Fig. 11). Unfortunately, despite many attempts, no direct radiometric date is yet available for the prehistoric prone skeletons of the first burial phase (Usai et al. 2010). In fact, all skeletons have suffered from a heavy diagenetic process, possibly due to peculiar climatic conditions occurring in the Holocene, favouring a continuous recycling of calcium carbonate in the form of subsequent calcite dissolution and recrystallization (Usai et al. 2010). This phenomenon would have disruptive effects on the inner structure of bones, which therefore did not preserve a sufficient amount of collagen for dating. The mineralogical, inorganic parts of bones also suffered weathering as an effect of independent environmental processes.

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Originally posted by Antalas:

And yes straight/wavy hair appeared first among eurasians not sub-saharans :

[QUOTE] Interestingly, different genes have been associated with straight hair in Europeans and East Asians, suggesting that this trait evolved independently at least twice. The most robust associations for straight hair have implicated Trichohyalin (TCHH, a structural hair protein) in Europeans14,15, and EDAR (a cell signalling receptor) in East Asians16, illustrating the range of cellular mechanisms that can impact on hair shape.

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Recent studies have identified Asian-specific alleles of the EDAR and FGFR2 genes that are associated with thick, straight hair, suggesting that these variants arose after the divergence of Asians and Europeans .3, [...] The T allele at rs11803731 is the derived state and shows a striking geographic specificity to Europe and western-central Asia, reaching its highest frequency in Northern Europeans (Figure 1E), suggesting that the variant arose somewhere in this broad region.

Common Variants in the Trichohyalin Gene Are Associated with Straight Hair in Europeans, 2009

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Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

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Originally posted by beyoku:
There is some much wrong with your outdated concepts of human variation that is like rose colored glasses over everything you see. You are creating a dichotomy between "Sub Saharans" and "Eurasians" in reference to a population which is neither, nor a composite of the two, acting as if they in and of themselves dont exist.

Curly AND Straight hair originate on the African continent, at a time where no "Eurasians" even exist.

You REALLY should watch this paying key attention the 35 minute mark. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT_HmUR8iuc
You need to learn the FUNCTION of phenotypical features you attribute to "Eurasia". All Eurasians dont even have Straight hair. [/QB]

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

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Originally posted by beyoku:
There is some much wrong with your outdated concepts of human variation that is like rose colored glasses over everything you see. You are creating a dichotomy between "Sub Saharans" and "Eurasians" in reference to a population which is neither, nor a composite of the two, acting as if they in and of themselves dont exist.

Curly AND Straight hair originate on the African continent, at a time where no "Eurasians" even exist.

You REALLY should watch this paying key attention the 35 minute mark. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT_HmUR8iuc
You need to learn the FUNCTION of phenotypical features you attribute to "Eurasia". All Eurasians dont even have Straight hair.

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So you disagree with me simply because that allele T was ancestral therefore making curly/kinky hair a "recent" adaptive trait ? The level of dishonesty is baffling ...smh

The fact that straight hair is uncommon in Sub-saharan africa except in areas with high amount of eurasian ancestry is already quite telling but the thing is you don't really know when this expansion of the derived allele C occured in Africa and it most likely occured way before any SSA groups as we know them today existed so my point still stand. Also such debate shouldn't even exist since we're talking about these features in recent populations like Ancient egyptians so at that time such trait was obviously related to alleles brought by eurasian settlers certainly not sub-saharans. [/QB]

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Let me make this smaller for you to digest.

1 - You didnt watch the video, dont be lazy. You need to watch the video so you can learn the adaptive FUNCTION of curly hair, this is the defense of her thesis. Straight hair SHOULD be "uncommon" in Sub Saharan Africans, when you watch the video you will see why.

2 - You are still making a dichotomy between Sub Saharan Africa and "Eurasians" as if NO OTHER HUMANS EXIST, particularly humans from the region that we are discussion.

3 - Does North Africa, or even the west Eurasians who migrated into North and East Africa carry derived EDAR alleles?

4 - You Said : "expansion of the derived allele C occured in Africa and it most likely occurred way before any SSA groups as we know them today existed". You dont see how this supports MY positions that both hair types existed on the a African continent before any Eurasians existed? Are you arguing the "Ancestral" allele existed in a population that existed "before Sub Saharan Africans as we know them today" but those humans were NOT on the African continent?
You are too smart to be this stupid. Take the glasses off. Racism lowers your IQ.

Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

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Originally posted by beyoku:


1 - You didnt watch the video, dont be lazy. You need to watch the video so you can learn the adaptive FUNCTION of curly hair, this is the defense of her thesis. Straight hair SHOULD be "uncommon" in Sub Saharan Africans, when you watch the video you will see why.

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Originally posted by beyoku: 2 - You are still making a dichotomy between Sub Saharan Africa and "Eurasians" as if NO OTHER HUMANS EXIST, particularly humans from the region that we are discussion.

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Originally posted by beyoku: 3 - Does North Africa, or even the west Eurasians who migrated into North and East Africa carry derived EDAR alleles?

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Originally posted by beyoku: 3 4 - You Said : "expansion of the derived allele C occured in Africa and it most likely occurred way before any SSA groups as we know them today existed". You dont see how this supports MY positions that both hair types existed on the a African continent before any Eurasians existed? Are you arguing the "Ancestral" allele existed in a population that existed "before Sub Saharan Africans as we know them today" but those humans were NOT on the African continent?
You are too smart to be this stupid. Take the glasses off. Racism lowers your IQ.

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

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Originally posted by beyoku:


1 - You didnt watch the video, dont be lazy. You need to watch the video so you can learn the adaptive FUNCTION of curly hair, this is the defense of her thesis. Straight hair SHOULD be "uncommon" in Sub Saharan Africans, when you watch the video you will see why.

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I already saw it and pay attention to what I wrote ; I'm well aware of its adaptative nature.

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Originally posted by beyoku: 2 - You are still making a dichotomy between Sub Saharan Africa and "Eurasians" as if NO OTHER HUMANS EXIST, particularly humans from the region that we are discussion.

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what do you mean exactly by this ? Some kind of unique third component ?

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Originally posted by beyoku: 3 - Does North Africa, or even the west Eurasians who migrated into North and East Africa carry derived EDAR alleles?

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EDAR alleles would be more east asian than anything else ; west eurasians brought specific variants of the TCHH gene in Africa.

quote:

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Originally posted by beyoku: 3 4 - You Said : "expansion of the derived allele C occured in Africa and it most likely occurred way before any SSA groups as we know them today existed". You dont see how this supports MY positions that both hair types existed on the a African continent before any Eurasians existed? Are you arguing the "Ancestral" allele existed in a population that existed "before Sub Saharan Africans as we know them today" but those humans were NOT on the African continent?
You are too smart to be this stupid. Take the glasses off. Racism lowers your IQ.

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The thing is you can also say that it existed before any modern human existed so again it won't really contradict what I said in regards to straight hair not being brought by SSA populations. Like I said you don't really know exactly when did this C allele become widespread. We're talking about modern human groups and you know damn well that straight hair in SSA is due to eurasian admixture not some kind of preserved relic trait. And don't start with "racism" ...racism would be to act like those afrocentrists who claim that no mutations appeared outside of africa and that eurasians couldn't bring any of their mutations in Africa.

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You didn't watch the video. Why would "Straight Hair" be brough by "Sub Saharan Africans" if its and adaptation to an environment that is uncommon or non existent in Sub Saharan Africa? If EDAR is not in Africa and West Eurasia then you shouldn't have brought it up. Also I didn't say straight hair existed before "Modern Humans" existed. I said it existed before MODERN *EURASIANS* existed. Thats you racist freudian slip.

Quoting you again.

"you know damn well that straight hair in SSA is due to eurasian admixture not some kind of preserved relic trait."

Hmm, didnt we make this mistake with curly hair? Didnt we make this mistake with dark skin tones? Didnt we make the mistake with light skin tones? Didnt we make this mistake will all types of Cranial affinities found outside of Africa that are similar to Africans? Now Is there ANY REGION INSIDE The African continent that has an environment NOT contusive to an adaptation of Curly hair? How long have humans been in that region?

And yes. Those people that make those comments about Eurasians diversity are racist, it makes them stupid. Its an illness.

Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by beyoku:

You REALLY should watch this paying key attention the 35 minute mark. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT_HmUR8iuc
You need to learn the FUNCTION of phenotypical features you attribute to "Eurasia". All Eurasians dont even have Straight hair.


Curly AND Straight hair originate on the African continent, at a time where no "Eurasians" even exist.

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Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by beyoku:

You REALLY should watch this paying key attention the 35 minute mark. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT_HmUR8iuc
You need to learn the FUNCTION of phenotypical features you attribute to "Eurasia". All Eurasians dont even have Straight hair.


Curly AND Straight hair originate on the African continent, at a time where no "Eurasians" even exist.

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She doesn't explain everything

she assumes here that humans come from an ancestors that had body hair.

If we look at other primates we see body hair and we see that it is straight.

So that could be a reasonable assumption

She assumes that humans had body hair but then lost it

What she does not address is why we lost it.

Scientists have various very different theories about it but nobody has proven the particular reason

I think that theories on the evolution of straight or curly hair may have to rely on (assuming that humans were once covered in fur)
why this fur was lost
and why it was retained by some mammals in their same environment

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Humans STILL HAVE "Body Hair". How is it you have been here for SO LONG and we can spell things out in simplistic form yet you never have anything useful to say? WATCH THE VIDEO. If you have watched the video and still feel your criticism is valid then find a new hobby. Your brain is not built for this.

Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by beyoku:
You didn't watch the video. Why would "Straight Hair" be brough by "Sub Saharan Africans" if its and adaptation to an environment that is uncommon or non existent in Sub Saharan Africa? If EDAR is not in Africa and West Eurasia then you shouldn't have brought it up. Also I didn't say straight hair existed before "Modern Humans" existed. I said it existed before MODERN *EURASIANS* existed. Thats you racist freudian slip.

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Originally posted by beyoku: Hmm, didnt we make this mistake with curly hair? Didnt we make this mistake with dark skin tones? Didnt we make the mistake with light skin tones? Didnt we make this mistake will all types of Cranial affinities found outside of Africa that are similar to Africans? Now Is there ANY REGION INSIDE The African continent that has an environment NOT contusive to an adaptation of Curly hair? How long have humans been in that region?

And yes. Those people that make those comments about Eurasians diversity are racist, it makes them stupid. Its an illness. [/QB]

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

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Originally posted by beyoku:
You didn't watch the video. Why would "Straight Hair" be brough by "Sub Saharan Africans" if its and adaptation to an environment that is uncommon or non existent in Sub Saharan Africa? If EDAR is not in Africa and West Eurasia then you shouldn't have brought it up. Also I didn't say straight hair existed before "Modern Humans" existed. I said it existed before MODERN *EURASIANS* existed. Thats you racist freudian slip.

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Because you implied its presence there predates any other mutations in Eurasia and I told you that it also existed before SSA groups as we know them first appeared so at the end your intervention is useless. Egyptians having straight hair is not due to some kind of relic old african trait and modern ssa groups can't have straight hair without substantial amount of eurasian ancestry. I'm sure we both agree on this.

So to know where the ancestral allele first existed is meaningless.

quote:

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Originally posted by beyoku: Hmm, didnt we make this mistake with curly hair? Didnt we make this mistake with dark skin tones? Didnt we make the mistake with light skin tones? Didnt we make this mistake will all types of Cranial affinities found outside of Africa that are similar to Africans? Now Is there ANY REGION INSIDE The African continent that has an environment NOT contusive to an adaptation of Curly hair? How long have humans been in that region?

And yes. Those people that make those comments about Eurasians diversity are racist, it makes them stupid. Its an illness.

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The problem here is the timeframe ; if we strictly focus on historical periods then no we didn't make any mistakes. Obviously the oldest strains of mankind would have shown similarities with africans but this doesn't really concern our time period.

also are you implying that light skin might have appeared independently in Africa ? If yes can you post some sources ? [/QB]

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Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by beyoku:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]

quote:

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Originally posted by beyoku:

You REALLY should watch this paying key attention the 35 minute mark. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT_HmUR8iuc
You need to learn the FUNCTION of phenotypical features you attribute to "Eurasia". All Eurasians dont even have Straight hair.


Curly AND Straight hair originate on the African continent, at a time where no "Eurasians" even exist.

---

She doesn't explain everything

she assumes here that humans come from an ancestors that had body hair.

If we look at other primates we see body hair and we see that it is straight.

So that could be a reasonable assumption

She assumes that humans had body hair but then lost it

What she does not address is why we lost it.

Scientists have various very different theories about it but nobody has proven the particular reason

I think that theories on the evolution of straight or curly hair may have to rely on (assuming that humans were once covered in fur)
why this fur was lost
and why it was retained by some mammals in their same environment

---

Humans STILL HAVE "Body Hair". How is it you have been here for SO LONG and we can spell things out in simplistic form yet you never have anything useful to say? WATCH THE VIDEO. If you have watched the video and still feel your criticism is valid then find a new hobby. Your brain is not built for this.

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quote:

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Originally posted by beyoku:
Curly AND Straight hair originate on the African continent

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Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged |