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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


https://www.google.com/books/edition/Burials_Migration_and_Identity_in_the_An/FOeADwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Burials,+Migration+and+Identity+in+the+Ancient+Sahara&printsec=frontcover &bshm=rime/1


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In book: pp.134-161

https://www.academia.edu/14001351/Human_mobility_and_Identity_Variation_diet_and_migration_in_relation_to_the_Garamates_of_Fazzan


Human Mobility and Identity: Variation, Diet and Migration in Relation to the Garamantes of Fazzan
Ronika k. Power, Efthymia Nikita, David j.Mattingly, Marta Mirazón Lahr,
Tamsin C. O'Connell
February 2019
DOI:10.1017/9781108634311.004

Introduction
The Garamantes were the earliest urbanised population in the Central Sahara, and their socio-political and economic histories have been the subject of extensive study.
1
However, little is known about their biologicalorigins. Building on the results obtained in the Desert Migrations Project,the biocultural theme within the Trans-SAHARA Project has sought toanswer two main questions relating to human migration in the CentralSahara. First, it aimed to determine what (if any) biological and culturallinks can be established between the historical kingdom of the Garamantesand the preceding late Neolithic (Pastoral) and contemporary peoples inthe surrounding Saharan, Sahelian, Nilotic and Mediterraneanregions. Second, the project aimed to investigate aspects of the diet andindividual mobility of the people who were buried in the Garamantiancemeteries of the Wadi al-Ajal, in direct comparison with results from theanalysis of people from the surrounding regions. Integrating osteological,3-D geometric morphometric and isotopic analyses, we examine the diet-ary profiles and geographical affinity/ies of the Garamantian population,with a view to differentiating individuals who migrated into the CentralSahara during their own lifetimes from others of potentially diverse ethniccomposition who lived in the region for the duration of the life course.




p 155

Craniometric data support these findings by identifying a few individuals with features broadly characterized as typical of Sub-Saharan morphology that differ from the majority of the Garamantian sample, while also highlighting a subgroup of individuals with more typically Mediterranean characteristics. When viewed in light of their isotopic similarity to local Garamantes, these latter individuals may indicate ancestral differences in geographical affinity as opposed to more recent migration. The individuals whose isotopic carbon values suggests they consumed a different diet in childhood, one rich in C grasses, were all buried in a single cemetery, Watwat and date to the second century AD or later. Their clustering at Watwat may suggest incipient social boundaries within Garamantian society. However, while all the individuals with a signature of a different childhood diet were buried at Watwat, not all those buried there do, indicating the shared used of burial space by all members of society. Equally, those individuals whose isotopic oxygen values suggest a different source of water in childhood were buried in several cemeteries, although mostly close to the Garamantian capital of Jarma, most of which were of higher social status than those at Watwat.

The combination of morphometric and isotopic work further reinforces the view that Garamantian society included individuals of diverse geogra-phicalorigin,someofwhommayhavebeenfirstgenerationTrans-Saharanmigrants. These findings are reinforced by the discovery of the interment of a young woman of Sub-Saharan physiognomy wearing a distinctive lip-plug of Sahelian type excavated during the Desert Migrations Project, dating to the later first millennium BC.
49
This ornament demonstratesthat some Garamantian individuals shared aspects of their material culture with Sahelian societies more broadly, either through migration or contact,


p 156

while their burial within Garamantian cemeteries shows their integration into the normative funerary rituals of contemporary Garamantian society as suggested by the results of the isotopic and craniometrics analyses. In combination, these results support the hypothesis of a vivid trading community that maintained a resident population through centuries, an done which was enriched by multiple-sourced Trans-Saharan migrations, as offered throughout this volume. Further integration of the physical and biochemical signatures of the individuals buried in Fazzan with all aspects of the extraordinary cemeteries from the Wadi al-Ajal has the potential of revealing the distinctive composition of what must have been a unique society at the heart of the Sahara desert. Further analysis, bolstered through the procurement of additional contemporaneous local and regional data, should enable us to refine considerably the picture of migration already apparent in the data from Fazzan. This work is vital if we are to understand the significance of migration in the revealed identity of individuals and groups in Garamantian society. With a total sample of several hundred excavated burials, this promises to be a ground-breaking study of the linkages between cultural and biological identity in a notably mixed society.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ I read that study the when it came out. The results of heterogeneity aren't that surprising since other studies show the same. Antalas cited a study on proto-historical Punic remains here

On some skulls, there is a more or less accentuated platyrrhiny associated with a more or less marked prognathism. These are all traits that one might consider negroid. If one is only based on the association of these two traits, ten skulls could be considered as negroid. Some are typical, such as Gastel's skull 3.52 which has a sub-nasal groove, flattened nasal bones, accentuated facial and alveolar prognathism, an erased chin, as well as Djelfa's wife (2.11) whose face, although narrow and long, is strongly prognathic with a grooved infra-nasal rim, flattened nasal bones and, a cultural trait common in African Melanoderms, an image of an upper incisor. Others are less typically negroid, but can nevertheless be considered as such, they are the skulls of Beidj (2.10), Tiddis (5.02), Roknia (3.05 and 3.37), Gastel (3.54), Sigus (coll. Thomas 3.79) , Carthage (4.27 and 4.36).

The nose has an average width in absolute value, its height is quite high. The individual distribution of the index is however quite variable with a similar number of lepto- and mesorhinal individuals among protohistoric, Punic and Roman men. Women are more Mesorhinian. We also note the existence of a significant proportion of Platyrrhine individuals (25% of men and women) in protohistoric and Roman burials in Algeria. They are much rarer in Punic burials.



^ That monument bears a striking resemblance to the 'divine fingers' stelae in West Asia.
 

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Posted by Shebitku (Member # 23742) on :
 
The garamantes were racially related to, say, Tuareg, Tubu and Zaghawa types although their roman conquerors were also present among them. Also worth mentioning is the fact that there is absolutely no conclusive evidence that the Garamantes spoke "berber" languages, and it's just as likely that they spoke languages related to the latter two groups.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Yes, it is often assumed the Garamantes were Berber speakers though there is also the hypothesis that they were Nilo-Saharan speakers and their script that is predecessor to Tifinagh is based on an even more ancient script found in area of southern Libya and Egypt's Western Desert.
 

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Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ I read that study the when it came out. The results of heterogeneity aren't that surprising since other studies show the same. Antalas cited a study on proto-historical Punic remains here

On some skulls, there is a more or less accentuated platyrrhiny associated with a more or less marked prognathism. These are all traits that one might consider negroid. If one is only based on the association of these two traits, ten skulls could be considered as negroid. Some are typical, such as Gastel's skull 3.52 which has a sub-nasal groove, flattened nasal bones, accentuated facial and alveolar prognathism, an erased chin, as well as Djelfa's wife (2.11) whose face, although narrow and long, is strongly prognathic with a grooved infra-nasal rim, flattened nasal bones and, a cultural trait common in African Melanoderms, an image of an upper incisor. Others are less typically negroid, but can nevertheless be considered as such, they are the skulls of Beidj (2.10), Tiddis (5.02), Roknia (3.05 and 3.37), Gastel (3.54), Sigus (coll. Thomas 3.79) , Carthage (4.27 and 4.36).

The nose has an average width in absolute value, its height is quite high. The individual distribution of the index is however quite variable with a similar number of lepto- and mesorhinal individuals among protohistoric, Punic and Roman men. Women are more Mesorhinian. We also note the existence of a significant proportion of Platyrrhine individuals (25% of men and women) in protohistoric and Roman burials in Algeria. They are much rarer in Punic burials.

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Moreover, the distance of the Garamantes to their neighbors was significantly high and the population appeared to be an outlier . This is attributed to the location of the Garamantes at the core of the desert, indicating that, despite the archaeological evidence, the Sahara Desert posed important limitations to gene flow between the Garamantes and other North African populations.

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The analysis of cranial nonmetric traits and 3D geometric morphometrics of the
cranial shape, supported that the Garamantes are phenotypically distant to other groups from Egypt, Algeria, Tunisia and Sudan, suggesting that the Sahara posed a barrier to extensive gene flow (Nikita et al., 2012a; 2012b). Similarly, the Garamantes were found to exhibit phenotypic continuity from the Late Pastoral to Roman times, but at the same time they engaged in some gene flow with other, likely sub-Saharan, groups (Ricci et al., 2013).

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E. Nikita, Biodistance studies in the eastern mediterranean and middle east : an overview and future prospects, 2020
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ You contradict yourself as usual. You say "Garamantes were much more heterogeneous than NW Africans" yet ignore the fact that they were NW Africans as the source you cited stated:

Moreover, the distance of the Garamantes to their neighbors was significantly high and the population appeared to be an outlier...
...the Sahara Desert posed important limitations to gene flow between the Garamantes and other North African populations.



https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/civ5customization_gamepedia_en/images/5/59/AncientLibyaModMap.png/revision/latest?cb=20170501194836

So miss me with your "Sub-Saharan" crap.

As for ancient slave trade, is this your explanation as to why NW Africans have higher Sub-Saharan ancestry than Northeast Africans??



According to Roman sources it was the Garamantes who did the enslaving. Because of this fact most scholars presumed the Garamantes to be racially "Mediterranean".
 

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Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ You contradict yourself as usual. You say "Garamantes were much more heterogeneous than NW Africans" yet ignore the fact that they were NW Africans as the source you cited stated:

Moreover, the distance of the Garamantes to their neighbors was significantly high and the population appeared to be an outlier...
...the Sahara Desert posed important limitations to gene flow between the Garamantes and other North African populations.


https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/civ5customization_gamepedia_en/images/5/59/AncientLibyaModMap.png/revision/latest?cb=20170501194836

So miss me with your "Sub-Saharan" crap.

As for ancient slave trade, is this your explanation as to why NW Africans have higher Sub-Saharan ancestry than Northeast Africans??


According to Roman sources it was the Garamantes who did the enslaving. Because of this fact most scholars presumed the Garamantes to be racially "Mediterranean".

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The pursuit of black slaves seems to be a constant in the history of the Saharan nomads. The Garamantes were certainly involved in the slave trade in antiquity. The famous passage in which Herodotus describes them as hunting the Ethiopian Troglodytes from four-horsed chariots” clearly suggests slaving. Even more suggestive is a scurrilous poem of the fourth century, addressing a black slave in Hadrumetum (Sousse) as the ‘dregs of the Garamantes’.3} It seems not unlikely that the Garamantes were one of the principal sources of black African slaves in the classical world, and that much of their wealth derived from the slave trade. Indeed, close contacts with Nubia are suggested by the contents of the tombs of the Garamantes, which contain large amounts of material from Upper Egypt and Nubia.” Much has been made of the gold routes across the desert in antiquity and the middle ages, but it seems likely that the most valuable cargo of the caravans was human.

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The Garamantians also served as middle-men in the slave trade. Already at the end of the first century, a Roman named Julius Maternus visited the king of the Garamantians, whom he accompanied on what seems to be a “hunting” raid against Ethiopians. The Garamantians consumed Roman commodities, which they had to pay for with something. Slaves seem to be one obvious candidate to explain the balance in trade between the Mediterranean and the Fazzan. The chalcidicum at Leptis Magna has been proposed as a plausible slave market, one end point of the trans-Saharan land route which slaves would have trudged in their coffles. The ostraca at Bu Djem, a Roman fort south of Leptis along one of the major arteries leading to the coast, indeed show the presence of Garamantian traders and black slaves along this axis of the trans-Saharan trade. Another branch of the trans-Saharan trade may have headed to the west, towards Carthage.

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A third-century inscription from coastal Hadrumentum preserved a vicious invective against the presence of black slaves, brought explicitly by the Garamantians :

The scum of the Garamantes comes into our world, and the dark slave is proud of
his black body. If not for the human voice issuing from his lips, this demon with
his awful face would horrify men. Hadrumentum, let the furies of hell take your
monster for themselves! The house of the underworld should have this one for its
guardsman.

This trade explains, for instance, the presence of black slaves at Carthage in the fifth century who were “Ethiopian by color, brought from the farthest reaches of the barbarian regions where the dried parts of the human are blackened by the fire of the sun

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According to this brief account (confirmed by ancient Saharan rock art), the Garamantes used four-horse chariots to hunt down fleet-footed ‘Ethiopian’ cave-dwellers.21 This is the earliest account of a dominant white race, socially organised and with a relatively advanced technology, exploiting the more primitive Saharan blacks, presumably to enslave them. The ‘Ethiopians’ Herodotus mentions were probably black but not negro Saharan aborigines, precursors of the modern Tebu.22 The Garamantes, likely ancestors of the Tuareg confederations of the western and central desert, had presumably been raiding and enslaving the desert blacks long before Herodotus wrote.23 Most, if not all, such slaves were probably kept by the Garamantes for their own uses and not normally herded up to the coast for export to Mediterranean markets. Here was a tradition of domination and enslavement of one African race by another that was only outlawed, if not wholly suppressed, by the political–social revolutions of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries.

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Twisted cord simple or roulette impressions are the typical Garamantian pottery decoration first dated at Zinkekra to 650 BC. While the Pastoral decorative techniques and patterns represent the local tradition, those obtained with a twisted cord are alien to the Central Sahara and to most part of North Africa. They instead are commonly found in West Africa (Mauritania) starting from the second millennium BC [...] a degree of gene flow (along a North-South African gradient, probably from sub-Saharan regions) seems to be expressed in some [skeletal] metric variables, which might be associated with the female subset of the population. Remarkably, the range of the Sr signatures at Fewet resulted slightly higher for the females than the males, further supporting this interpretation. ... this perfectly matches with what was previously suggested in regards to the Garamantian domestic architecture and pottery manufacture (the hypothesis of the Garamantian pottery being made by Sahelian women present in the local communities as a result of intermarriage) .

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Raiding and pillaging seem to have been one of their mainstays, and raiding coloured the whole pattern of their life…The Tibu seem to have harried and collected tribute from all travellers within their realms, and their activities were a sore trial to the early caravaners. Beyond that, they swept out of the deserts to raid the settled populations as far afield as Ouadai and the Chad area, Cyrenaica, the Egyptian oases, the Nile valley, and Kordofan… The general temperament of the Tibu relates clearly to this long history of raiding.

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Nominally Tibesti is under French rule, but the plateau is still a haunt of desert raiders of Tibbu stock, who for centuries have carried on raids and reprisals with the Tuareg of Air, their inveterate enemies, by whom no quarter is given.

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Periodically the Kura'án, a black race of heathen, sally forth from their country north of Wadái and Dárfür, and raid the Arabs to the south and south-east for booty.

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One of the most problematic aspects is the language and inscriptions attributed to the Garamantes. The people generally known as Garamantes in classical records were placed by Pliny a 12 days’ journey from the Awjila, in the interior of Libya. They occupied the most habitable region of the Sahara: the Wadis al-Ajal and ash-Shati and the oases from Murzuq to Zuwila. At a later date, lbn Khaldun stated that Germanah (Jarma) was first settled by the Lauta or Luwwatah tribe, who also inhabited the coastal regions of Tripolitania. Sites in the vicinity of Jarma, the Garamantian capital of what is now known as Fazzan, have abundant inscriptions. They are found cut or painted on dark grey amphorae, in the tombs of Garamantian cemeteries, such as those of Saniat bin Huwaydi. A recent project under the auspices of the British Library has digitised most of the known inscriptions and these are described in Biagetti et al. Although the inscriptions are in Berber characters, only some are decipherable. Various reasons for this have been suggested; either the messages were deliberately coded, so that only specific readers could understand them. Alternatively, they may have had a ‘ludic’ nature. The most exciting possibility is that they were in a non-Berber language, perhaps Nilo- Saharan.

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." - Roger Blench, Burials, Migration and Identity in the Ancient Sahara and Beyond, 2019

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The Garamantes, whose empire in the Libyan Fezzan was overthrown by the Romans, wrote in a Libyan script, although we have no evidence they spoke Berber. What they did speak is open to conjecture; the most likely hypothesis is a Nilo-Saharan language, related either to Songhay or to Teda-the present-day language of the Tibesti

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The Garamantes cluster most closely to Sub-Saharan Africans and secondarily to the Roman Egyptians from Alexandria and the Nubians from Soleb. Overall, these results are reasonable given that from the archaeological evidence it is known that the Garamantes were in close connection with Sub-Saharan Africa, and with people from Egypt and the Mediterranean coast of Africa.

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The Garamantes themselves were occasionally described as somewhat or even wholly black. They are somewhat black in Ptolemy, I.9.7, p. 25, and they are 'more likely Ethiopians' in Ptolemy, I.8.5, p. 31 A. Garamantian slave is described as having a body the colour of pitch'. An anthropological survey carried out in their burial grounds confirms the composite nature of their racial characteristics; it is pure prejudice and an improbable assertion to claim that the negroid skeletons are those of slaves, for it is an arbitrary conclusion to say that two groups of white skeletons out of four represent the proportion of Garamantes in antiquity.

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The Kanuri people of Bornu originated from the Toubou ‘Negroids’ of Kanem, and of the Eastern Sahara. These Toubou were perhaps the Garamantes of Roman geographers. Their range in ancient times extended from Fezzan to Lake Chad.

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The Garamantes were well known to the historians and geographers of the classical period, and seem to have been a nomad race extending from north of Fezzan (the ancient Phazania) as far south as Nubia, including that area now known as the Bayûda Desert. In the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries A.D., the Bayûda Desert was still known as the Desert of Goran, Gorham, or Gorhan; a name, as McMichael has shown, connected with Kura'án and with Garama and Garamantes. According to Leo Africanus, speaking of the negro kingdoms which he visited in 1513-15,"Nubia... is enclosed on the southern side with the desert of Goran... the king of Nubia maintaineth continuall warre... against the people of Goran. The Kura án of to-day, occupying much the same territory as did the Garamantes in ancient times, are a mixture of Tibbu and negro; a nomadic race occupying the deserts north of Dárfûr and Wadái.

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...In his Chronicle, under the year 569-70, he records the conversion to Christianity of the
Maccuritae-the Makкoupaι of Ptolemy, the Makoritae of John of Ephesus-who inhabited the country immediately to the south of the Nobatae. In the same year the Garamantes, the modern Kura'án, were also converted.

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The Teda preserved the legend about the Mother of God and her child and it was first written down after the Second World War. In Ennedi, traces of Christianity lead to Nubia.

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The relationship between Saharan and Nilotic burial traditions represents an interesting line of enquiry. There are striking structural similarities between certain Nile Valley burial monuments and those of the Garamantes. Some, like the construction of mud-brick pyramids and of rectangular, stepped tombs similar to the mastaba type appear to be distant echoes in relative isolation, rather than part of a more generalised cultural adoption of the burial form within the Sahara. However, stone-built tumuli in general, and the C-Group ones in particular, which are very similar to Garamantian tumuli, are evidence of a shared Saharan tradition that goes far back in time. The laying out of the corpse on its back in an extended posture is a characteristic of Egypt, the Western Desert oases and of some of the late historic Nubian graves, whereas as we shall see for much of the rest of the
Sahara, starting from Nubia, the body was placed in a contracted position. laid on one side, and covered by a leather shroud of some kind.

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Hassanein Bey noted the former existence of Guraan, both from Kufra, and from the south, at 'Uweinat, and elements of Tibu have even been detected in the Cyrenaican and Egyptian oases; probably the descendants of raiding groups.

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Both the Blemmyes (the Beja of the middle ages, and probably the Bisháriín etc. of the present) and the ancestors or precursors of the Berber and Tibbu tribes of the deserts roamed the country round El Haráza in past days. The former, for instance, in 200 A.D. were settled on both sides of the Nile, and were assisted in their raids on Egypt by the Nobatae (Nüba); and, as regards the latter there can be no doubt that the Bayuda desert and Northern Kordofán, which together roughly formed what used to be known as the desert of Gorham or Goran, was once the home of roaming tribes probably connected on the one hand with the ancient Garamantes and on the other with the Tibbu and Eastern Tuwarek, part descendants of the old nomad Berbers

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This picture is borne out by the legends collected by modern explorers. Born of the recollection of these raids, the settled cultivators of Egypt produced many wonderful stories of inhabited valleys and oases in the desert wastes, and even of walled towns. They recounted how the inhabitants of these desert strongholds, generally described as Blacks, quite frequently raided the outlying Egyptian oases, vanishing swiftly back into the desert to defy pursuit. From such material arose the legend of Zerzura… To locate this tantalizing
place formed one of the principal initial incentives to exploration; and although Zerzura itself has probably not been found (unless one accepts
Almàsy's claim to the title for his three wadis in the northern Gilf Kebir), exploration did find many hitherto unknown oases. The whole subject of
Zerzura has been ably discussed by Almàsy, and the legends of raids on the Egyptian oases are fully presented in his book. Although disappointed in
finding Zerzura itself, modern explorers did discover J. 'Uweinat, J. Archenu, Merga, Bir Bidi, and the Gilf Kebir; while Kufra and its neighbouring oases were more completely explored. At all these places traces of modern occupation were observed. Kufra and Tazerbo were occupied by Arabs, who had captured these oases in the nineteenth century from the indigenous Tibu, but many of the Tibu remained. A small party of Tibu were discovered at'Uweinat and Archenu by Hassanein Bey in 1920 and 1923, under a chief Herri; and although their occupation did not persist beyond 1933, it is clear from their statements that the Tibu had known the mountain oasis for centuries, and visited it regularly both to graze camels, and as a pied-à-terre for raids. At Merga, Newbold and Shaw in 1927 found recently built grass and reed
huts, although the oasis was deserted. They learned however that it was well known to the Bideyat and Guraan people of the south (groups related to the
Tibu), and visited by them regularly. Similar remains were found by Almásy at Bir Bidi nearby in 1935, who also found many traces of recent
Tibu occupation in the wadis of the northern Gilf Kebir which led him to claim their identity with Zerzura. Again, in conversations with Tibu, Almàsy
was told quite definitely that all these places were age-old Tibu strongholds, the Tibu having known and traversed the whole of the desert long before the appearance of the Arabs.

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Even without elaborate analysis it is clear that all the objects can be readily paralleled among both the Tibu of Tibesti, and the Guraan and Bideyat of the south, while they are quite alien to the Arabs; and the ethnological evidence thus confirms the historical material: first, that the Tibu peoples alone can be described as the true natives of the Libyan Desert; and secondly that until quite recent years they roamed over a much wider area than that in which they are now to be found. Kufra and Tazerbo were their strongholds for centuries before the Arabs managed to reach and conquer them. They certainly knew, visited, and periodically occupied 'Uweinat, Archenu, and the valleys of the Gilf Kebir; they alone knew and used Merga, Bir Bidi, and other small and remote oases; their water jars were found at Abu Ballas (by John Ball) on the road to Dakhla; indeed it can be said that their realm extended across the whole of the Libyan Desert as far as the Cyrenaican and Egyptian oases, the Arba'in road, and even at times the Nile Valley. All the historical evidence seems to identify them directly with the mysterious "desert blacks," who periodically raided Siwa, Dakhla, and the other Egyptian oases, and with the "desert Goran" written of by Leo Africanus in the sixteenth century, who terrorized the Nile valley peoples, and on whom the King of Nubia "waged continuall warre.

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- R.F. Peel, The Tibu Peoples and the Libyan Desert, 1942

I could keep going, but im pretty sure it'll be a waste of time since there will be some generic response of

"Well deyz wuz juz showing dey yt guilt and sheeit um um um dey juz being post colonial and progrezzive and sheeeit um um um de tubu'z iz slavez and sheeit but imma say dat indirectly becuz i cant prove it and sheeit"



[ 17. November 2023, 07:56 AM: Message edited by: Askia_The_Great ]
 

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Posted by Shebitku (Member # 23742) on :
 
^Kura'án, Goraan etc = Tubu's

Bideyat's are the Zaghawa who reside in the north

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It is undisputed that the Zaghawa are closely connected with the Tibbu (or Teda) family

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Originally posted by Shebitku:

Both the Blemmyes (the Beja of the middle ages, and probably the Bisháriín etc. of the present) and the ancestors or precursors of the Berber and Tibbu tribes of the deserts roamed the country round El Haráza in past days. The former, for instance, in 200 A.D. were settled on both sides of the Nile, and were assisted in their raids on Egypt by the Nobatae (Nüba); and, as regards the latter there can be no doubt that the Bayuda desert and Northern Kordofán, which together roughly formed what used to be known as the desert of Gorham or Goran, was once the home of roaming tribes probably connected on the one hand with the ancient Garamantes and on the other with the Tibbu and Eastern Tuwarek, part descendants of the old nomad Berbers

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- R.F. Peel, The Tibu Peoples and the Libyan Desert, 1942

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The primary encounter with foreign and unknown nations is clearly and always made through sight. Even if one does not talk to, or trade with, or fight, or approach, other people, a visual impression is made. Accordingly, we find several proverbial expressions related to physical appearance. In Plautus’ Poenulus (‘the little Punic’) Antamonides, a soldier in love with one of two Carthaginian girls, exclaims:

Now that I’m angry I’d like my girlfriend to meet me: with my fists I’ll make sure that she’s black as a blackbird this instant, I’ll fill her with blackness to such an extent that she’s much blacker than the Egyptians (atrior … quam Aegyptini) who carry the bucket round the circus during the games.

(Plaut. Poen. 1288–91)Footnote5
Egyptians thus are presented as a standard for blackness, even if the image is based not on an actual visit to Egypt but on the appearance of Egyptians who were brought to Rome and performed or worked in the circus. Perhaps these implied circumstances emphasized even more the physical difference between locals (Roman city dwellers who attended the theatre) and foreigners (Egyptian slaves). But Egyptians were not the usual symbol of dark complexion. Based on what we have available in writing, other North Africans were more commonly used as proverbial illustrations of black or dark skin.

In the so-called Priapic erotic epigrams, a certain very repulsive girl is said to be ‘no whiter than a Moor’ (non candidior puella Mauro) (46.1). In another Priapic epigram the Moors represent elaborately curly hair when mocking a feminine male who ‘primp[s] his hair with curly irons so he’d seem a Moorish maiden’ (ferventi caput ustulare ferro, ut Maurae similis foret puellae) (45.2–3).Footnote6 The Latin MauriFootnote7 sometimes referred specifically to the inhabitants of the region defined in ancient geographies as Mauritania, or Maurousia in Greek, which is more or less parallel to parts of modern Morocco and Algeria.Footnote8 However, we often find the same terminology applied, especially in poetic works, to Africans in general.Footnote9 Accordingly, the proverbial association of Mauri with dark skin could be understood as pertaining to the inhabitants of north-western Africa or to the inhabitants of the continent as a whole. It seems that even if the crowds had no precise geographical idea of peoples and places, the popular notion of certain groups who have black skin must have been established and transmitted.

The Latin references to Egyptians and Mauri as people with a darker complexion combine to form the traditional and most well-known use of Aethiops as the symbol of black skin already in Greek proverbial applications. The very etymology of the Greek word Αἰθίοψ, denoting a ‘burnt face’ (αἴθω, ὄψ), as well as the Greek idiom ‘to wash an Aethiops white,’Footnote10 must have fixed this image in the minds of the crowds, even those who had never met any person from the relevant African regions. This is quite clear, for instance, in Juvenal’s contrast between ‘white’ and ‘Aethiops’ (derideat Aethiopem albus, Juv. 2.23)

---

Now let's wait and see what excuses he has in store. The author is an "Afrocentrist" who is "black-washing" or perhaps the Romans were! LMAO
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Here is another good source on a general survey by the Roman Pliny the Elder on the inhabitants of Africa:

Libyans / Africans: Pliny the Elder on various peoples and strange customs (first century CE)
 

---

Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Isn't it funny how whenever the Garamantes and their relations with other Africans are discussed Antalas always comes with his troll off topic SSA slave stuff...

Here is another example..
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=010565;p=1

Its weird huh, with his whole white knight act how he is so triggered by a people like the Garamantes (who have nothing to do with Coastal Berbers and more than likely their descendants are the modern people of the Fezzan) having relations with West and Central Africans

Modern People of Garama
https://historum.com/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FSAplavn.jpg&hash=3ccf1b099a4b038de6cb9445c761fd98

But Dey Wuz Uhhh Slaves and Uhhh Aprocentristz uhh be uhhh uhhh Pan Aprakanizum to uhhh say and Cuz....Slave Trade.....


 

---

Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 
We have one individual who fantasizes about the Tubus enslaving "white" North Africans, and another person who manages to contradict himself within a single paragraph.




I'll restate my question because Djehuti seems to be avoiding it.

Djehuti, why are you connecting the physical traits of Mediterranean Maghrebis to the Central Saharan Garamantes? Why are you making such an extrapolation when bio-anthropology has clearly established that the Garamantes were a distinct population, not closely related to other North Africans?
 

---

Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Its funny isnt it, he's not even consistant with his BS ideology which isn't even an ideology to begin with just anti-black debate bro chest bumping....all bark and no bite...

Claims Ethiopians are not black, but posts a source describing them as such by a Medieval Persian Shah to Chest bump debate bro post againt Taz, gets called out 'NaW SeE WhAt HaPpEnEd WuZ...Uhh DuH PeRsIaNs DiDnT HaVe DnA"

Pretends for years to defend modern Egyptians from Afrocentrist boogymen...Literally celebrates the Dynastic Race Theory....

NaW SeE WhAt HaPpEnEd WuZ...Uhh DuH I WuZ JuSt PrEtEnDiNg Uhhh...Yeh DaTz It...Tee Hee..



Glad the 3 Abstracts/Leaks thread exposed him to other members

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shebitku:
"Stop projecting modern conventional labels unto the past"

2 seconds later

"Dey wuz enslaving de blackz"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Isn't it funny how whenever the Garamantes and their relations with other Africans are discussed Antalas always comes with his troll off topic SSA slave stuff...

Here is another example..
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=010565;p=1

Its weird huh, with his whole white knight act how he is so triggered by a people like the Garamantes (who have nothing to do with Coastal Berbers and more than likely their descendants are the modern people of the Fezzan) having relations with West and Central Africans

Modern People of Garama
https://historum.com/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FSAplavn.jpg&hash=3ccf1b099a4b038de6cb9445c761fd98

But Dey Wuz Uhhh Slaves and Uhhh Aprocentristz uhh be uhhh uhhh Pan Aprakanizum to uhhh say and Cuz....Slave Trade.....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:



The ancient slave trade also impacted them (Nikita et al. 2020) :

quote:

---

The analysis of cranial nonmetric traits and 3D geometric morphometrics of the
cranial shape, supported that the Garamantes are phenotypically distant to other groups from Egypt, Algeria, Tunisia and Sudan, suggesting that the Sahara posed a barrier to extensive gene flow (Nikita et al., 2012a; 2012b). Similarly, the Garamantes were found to exhibit phenotypic continuity from the Late Pastoral to Roman times, but at the same time they engaged in some gene flow with other, likely sub-Saharan, groups (Ricci et al., 2013).

---

E. Nikita, Biodistance studies in the eastern mediterranean and middle east : an overview and future prospects, 2020

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
BTW notice the slight of hand in his first post to DJuhuti

Notice how these source does'nt say a damn thing about Slavery being the exclusive way the cultures interacted.. but he slyly add it in there for them...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
BTW notice the slight of hand in his first post to DJuhuti

Notice how these source does'nt say a damn thing about Slavery being the exclusive way the cultures interacted.. but he slyly add it in there for them...

---

It's not my problem if you're not well-informed about ancient Garamantes. One post later I included additional quotes to provide context, but you chose to overlook them. Is there a reason for your consistent disregard ? It's rather perplexing, considering you seem to become quite agitated every time a north african mentions slavery involving black individuals. What's ironic is that this sentiment is coming from someone who doesn't have a significant "black" heritage and has a notable recent ancestry from NW Europe.

---

 

---

Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Sorry Lioness, we can't discuss the Garamantes here on ES without the same tired Slavery, they were black SSA vs White tired BS....

The OP has interesting info about various members of Ancient Garama from different Ancestries being buried as Equals

"DeY Uzz HaD SLaAyBz DoH....."

 

---

Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Yes Keep pretending your existance here or in any online historical forum is anything but chest bumping debate bro non sense..

I don't give a damn about the slave trade, its just annoying as hell as your only contribution to the topic of Garamantes is slavery....like we get it....Move on.

I mean are you ever going to contribute anything of intellectual merit? ( like it would Be cool to see stuff on Classical N/A and its contribution to Xtianity/Western Civ...etc)

My bad maybe Im assuming you have in depth intelligent knowlege about the cultures you claim...I did assume you cared about defending modern Egyptians but the 3 Abtract thread exposed that huh....

Fool me once...

...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
BTW notice the slight of hand in his first post to DJuhuti

Notice how these source does'nt say a damn thing about Slavery being the exclusive way the cultures interacted.. but he slyly add it in there for them...

---

It's not my problem if you're not well-informed about ancient Garamantes. One post later I included additional quotes to provide context, but you chose to overlook them. Is there a reason for your consistent disregard ? It's rather perplexing, considering you seem to become quite agitated every time a north african mentions slavery involving black individuals. What's ironic is that this sentiment is coming from someone who doesn't have a significant "black" heritage and has a notable recent ancestry from NW Europe.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
Why do you continue to feign ignorance regarding Djehuti's underlying intentions in his post ? If you genuinely care about and respect my people, why haven't you responded to her racist comments directed at my community ? Like I said I brought slavery to contextualize their heterogeneity certainly not because of "chest bumping" which doesn't even make sense since I made it clear that they weren't even similar to us...

---

quote:

---

I joined this platform to challenge Afrocentrism, not to engage in the sharing of "intellectual" content when it's apparent that most members here are not particularly interested.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
(Edit:) Djs post was about Punic Burials(Not Garamantes) so I was wrong, but I still stand by the Off topic Slavey stuff

Djhutis post had nothing to do with you or your people but with the fact that the Garamantes had members in their society with stereotypical SSA features..(Edit: I was wrong here)which is inline with the information shared in the OP you only brought up slavery because that fact triggers you so...

Also as DJ said, the Garamantes WERE a NW African people. You mad bruh?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
Why do you continue to feign ignorance regarding Djehuti's underlying intentions in his post ? If you genuinely care about and respect my people, why haven't you responded to her racist comments directed at my community ? Like I said I brought slavery to contextualize their heterogeneity certainly not because of "chest bumping" which doesn't even make sense since I made it clear that they weren't even similar to us...

---

quote:

---

I joined this platform to challenge Afrocentrism, not to engage in the sharing of "intellectual" content when it's apparent that most members here are not particularly interested.

---

Glad the cat is out of the bag on your intellectual dishonesty...

The thread and the one I posted actually proves members are infact interested in intellectual discussion...you're just a self admitted troll.

---

His post literally has nothing to do with Garamantes but with my ancestors ...can't you read ? Why would I be triggered by the presence of SSA features in their society while it's literally me who shared quotes related to it ? Wtf hahaha

Again by NW african people I meant mediterranean NW Africans and you know it. So I asked him what does the skulls of such people have to do with a central saharan community which got described as very distinct from the former.

So now challenging racist ideologies is trolling ? Seems like in your mind their stance is totally legitimate and blacks can't be racist.
 

---

Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
You literally quoted my edited post so you already know I was wrong about DJ's OP...

Move on...

Also, restricting NW African idenity to the coast is just more lazy intellectual dishonety, does'nt change the fact that the Garamantes were NW Africans, they were also different from Egyptian, who are also not a Coastal NW African people, so are Egyptians now not a North African people because they're not restricted to the Coastal fringe of the Mehgreb,,,

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
(Edit:) Djs post was about Punic Burials(Not Garamantes) so I was wrong, but I still stand by the Off topic Slavey stuff

Djhutis post had nothing to do with you or your people but with the fact that the Garamantes had members in their society with stereotypical SSA features..(Edit: I was wrong here)which is inline with the information shared in the OP you only brought up slavery because that fact triggers you so...

Also as DJ said, the Garamantes WERE a NW African people. You mad bruh?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
Why do you continue to feign ignorance regarding Djehuti's underlying intentions in his post ? If you genuinely care about and respect my people, why haven't you responded to her racist comments directed at my community ? Like I said I brought slavery to contextualize their heterogeneity certainly not because of "chest bumping" which doesn't even make sense since I made it clear that they weren't even similar to us...

---

quote:

---

I joined this platform to challenge Afrocentrism, not to engage in the sharing of "intellectual" content when it's apparent that most members here are not particularly interested.

---

Glad the cat is out of the bag on your intellectual dishonesty...

The thread and the one I posted actually proves members are infact interested in intellectual discussion...you're just a self admitted troll.

---

His post literally has nothing to do with Garamantes but with my ancestors ...can't you read ? Why would I be triggered by the presence of SSA features in their society while it's literally me who shared quotes related to it ? Wtf hahaha

Again by NW african people I meant mediterranean NW Africans and you know it. So I asked him what does the skulls of such people have to do with a central saharan community which got described as very distinct from the former.

So now challenging racist ideologies is trolling ? Seems like in your mind their stance is totally legitimate and blacks can't be racist.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
Why would I be triggered by the presence of SSA features in their society

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] You literally quoted my edited post so you already know I was wrong about DJ's OP...

Move on...

Also, restricting NW African idenity to the coast is just more lazy intellectual dishonety, does'nt change the fact that the Garamantes were NW Africans, they were also different from Egyptian, who are also not a Coastal NW African people, so are Egyptians now not a North African people because they're not restricted to the Coastal fringe of the Mehgreb,,,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
It was'nt just THEIR society as the Punic Burial stuff you posted shows it was also YOUR Ancestors society as well...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
Why would I be triggered by the presence of SSA features in their society

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

We have one individual who fantasizes about the Tubus enslaving "white" North Africans

---

There is certainly no "fantasy"but common knowledge... The Tubu people have been raiding "white"(berberid)North African) North Africans for millenia, as mentioned in the data i posted above, and there were undeniably hundreds of "white" slaves in the Kanem-Borno empire (females especially)

white meaning albanian-turk looking like yourself

Infact there's a saying amongst the Tubu elders and nobles that goes something to the effect of

One Tubu man is the equivalent to two million arab (berberid)North African) men

If you take one Tubu man and place him in the battlefield in the homeland of the arabs and come back with the next thrity minutes, the two million arab men will have disappeared into the dirt

but if you take two million arab men and place them in the battlefield in the homeland of Tubu and return within the next two minutes, the two million arab men will have disapeared into the dirt

In both instances the Tubu man will still be there



Some things just dont ever change i guess...



I could post far more explicit images related to the enslavement of white (berberid)North african)Targid types in paticular) slaves (females concubines speciffically) in the region but it would likely result in me being banned as they're rated R

And no matter how much crying you do will change these facts

quote:

---

Why are you triggered everytime I bring up slavery ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey:



Haratines are clearly distinguished from black Africans and mestizos despite their proximity. In a detailed study on the population of Idélès (500 inhabitants in 1970) and in which we participated with Dr. Ph. Lefèvre-Witier, the latter remarks that: “Contrary to what a superficial observation of the village would suggest and despite the relatively large gene flows, the probability of which we have studied, the fusion of genetic heritages still seems not very marked in Idélès. Quite distinct entities remain: Harratines, Tuaregs, Isseqqamarenes, former Iklans /slaves/, and this appears quite clearly in the different methods of analysis used” (Ph. Lefèvre-Witier, 1996 , p. 235).

20With the spectacular evolution of genetic analysis methods in recent years (particularly concerning DNA), it is now possible to assess more and more precisely the specific and original characteristics of these populations for too long considered as a by-product of slavery whereas they are one of the oldest components of the Saharan population.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

Yatunde You're off topic nobody denied a "black" presence in the Sahara. Also Most black north africans aren't haratin and the latter were often less valued than slaves :.

---

*Continues to post quotes about how the Haratin's were discriminated against

I could go back and find more of these types of posts constantly demeaning "black" North Africans existence, but im sure you get my point

Also notice how Antalas was the first and only person to mention skin colour in any form? Implying that the Tubu related groups(Nilo-Saharans)are racially "blacks". Meanwhile in reality the Tubu's, Haratin's etc ("black" North Africans) are far more akin to a horn African, who he will chimp out about if you say that they're black, in their genetic makeup than they're to "True Nigger" west africans

Why does he say that they're "black" you may ask? Solely because they speak Nilo-Saharan languages....

I mean you can't make this shit up



But anyway since he doesn't want to address a single thing i've posted I think im done here
 

---

Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
What does feeling of familiarity have to do with the fact of intellectual lazyiness that is restricting the identity of North Africa to one people of the Coastal fringe of the Mehgreb?

How does that change the fact that various people who would logically be called North Africans not only had members in their society that were magical barrier SSAs but were in so intances like Nubians etc resembled SSAs?

But yeah I forgot the only relationship the Garamantes had with SSA is slavery...
 

---

Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
This is the same tactics they use with the Nubians, on the 3 Abracts/Leaks thread I decided to read some of that Miro guys posts and he had a tweet about how Afrocentrics "True Ancestors" were the Subjected NHSY war prisoners from Egyptian War Propaganda on the Temple walls...

lol, the intellectual dishonesty to post something like that while pretending you're better than "Hoteps" is laughable...

First off the NHSY captives WERE a North African people, unless these clowns are claiming the A. Egyptians went hundreds of thousands of miles to West Africa to get their War Captives...(its ok though they just label all true Negros as SSA, without reguard to genetic diversity and cultural distance, no different than Hoteps they only care about genetic diversity being important with Egyptians)

Also the Egyptians had white skinned bearded Asiatic/Middle Eastern War Captives, should we use that as the end all experience of those types in A. Egypt

Like I said there's no real merit or intellectual honesty to these debate bro chest bumping internet thugs...They'll use various Africans as their tolken Abid population to own hoteps when it suits them...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shebitku:
[QB]
Also notice how Antalas was the first and only person to mention skin colour in any form? Implying that the Tubu related groups(Nilo-Saharans)are racially "blacks". Meanwhile in reality the Tubu's, Haratin's etc ("black" North Africans) are far more akin to a horn African, who he will chimp out about if you say that they're black, in their genetic makeup than they're to "True Nigger" west africans

Why does he say that they're "black" you may ask? Solely because they speak Nilo-Saharan languages....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
What does feeling of familiarity have to do with the fact of intellectual lazyiness that is restricting the identity of North Africa to one people of the Coastal fringe of the Mehgreb?

How does that change the fact that various people who would logically be called North Africans not only had members in their society that were magical barrier SSAs but were in so intances like Nubians etc resembled SSAs?

But yeah I forgot the only relationship the Garamantes had with SSA is slavery...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
Is this a joke ? The intellectually lazy approach would involve categorizing all these diverse groups without considering their unique histories, cultures, genetics, and more, simply because they reside within the same conventional borders.

---

quote:

---

Moreover, there isn't a singular "North African identity." Instead, you have various identities like Arab, Berber, Egyptian, Maghrebi, and more, but there is no overarching "North African identity."

---

quote:

---

Your reference to the coastal "fringe" is essentially where the majority of North Africans reside, excluding Egypt, of course. Ancient/medieval NAs as far as I know never considered blacks in their society as their kin and I don't think I have to remind you what happened when those berbers expanded south (equidian/camelid phases) so I'm not sure what you're even talking about. [/qb]

---

What kind of comment is this...lol, this is how I know your full of S#it

Also it was'nt one sided,it took hundreds of years or pillaging to fully expand, aslo were'nt Berbers tribute paying subjects in Walata for example, I doubt this was the outlier..
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Just face it. You have utterly failed in your attempts to white-wash Northeast Africa (Egypt) so you desperately try to preserve your fantasy of a non-black Northwest Africa but to no avail.

Ethnic Types and Stereotypes in Ancient Latin Idioms


(Plaut. Poen. 1288–91)Footnote5
Egyptians thus are presented as a standard for blackness, even if the image is based not on an actual visit to Egypt but on the appearance of Egyptians who were brought to Rome and performed or worked in the circus. Perhaps these implied circumstances emphasized even more the physical difference between locals (Roman city dwellers who attended the theatre) and foreigners (Egyptian slaves). But Egyptians were not the usual symbol of dark complexion. Based on what we have available in writing, other North Africans were more commonly used as proverbial illustrations of black or dark skin.

In the so-called Priapic erotic epigrams, a certain very repulsive girl is said to be ‘no whiter than a Moor’ (non candidior puella Mauro) (46.1). In another Priapic epigram the Moors represent elaborately curly hair when mocking a feminine male who ‘primp[s] his hair with curly irons so he’d seem a Moorish maiden’ (ferventi caput ustulare ferro, ut Maurae similis foret puellae) (45.2–3).Footnote6 The Latin MauriFootnote7 sometimes referred specifically to the inhabitants of the region defined in ancient geographies as Mauritania, or Maurousia in Greek, which is more or less parallel to parts of modern Morocco and Algeria.Footnote8 However, we often find the same terminology applied, especially in poetic works, to Africans in general.Footnote9 Accordingly, the proverbial association of Mauri with dark skin could be understood as pertaining to the inhabitants of north-western Africa or to the inhabitants of the continent as a whole. It seems that even if the crowds had no precise geographical idea of peoples and places, the popular notion of certain groups who have black skin must have been established and transmitted.

Your evoking of N. A vs. SS morphology will not save you so keep running away from your black boogeyman.


 

---

Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
What does this have to do with the fact that Garamantes were a North African people? You're the one trying to pretend N/A Identiry is strictly Mehgrebi with your "Again by NW african people I meant mediterranean NW Africans and you know it" comment...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Weird how North Africans deserve to have their various cultural identites respected but you restrict various African with your SSA BS label, to the point where various people who are SSA are not "black" because they dont fit your true negro ideology

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: What kind of comment is this...lol, this is how I know your full of S#it

Also it was'nt one sided,it took hundreds of years or pillaging to fully expand, aslo were'nt Berbers tribute paying subjects in Walata for example, I doubt this was the outlier.. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
[QB]Again ffs what are you talking about ? In fact, I was the sole individual on this platform who stood up against members who perceived "blacks" as a homogenous group and became sensitive when I emphasized distinctions among various groups from the Horn of Africa and other ethnicities in sub-Saharan Africa.

---

Show me one post you have made here where you support or stress the idea that what you label as "black" has divesity and includes various peoples like HOA etc...

Go ahead post it...

Tell the Truth and Shame the Devil...

quote:

---

There's no notion of a "true negro fallacy"; you simply lack a deep understanding of African phenotypes, and this is evident as you appear to superimpose your American experiences onto africans.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:Well you implied that North Africa was some kind of ancient utopia with blacks living peacefully among berbers while this couldn't be farther from the truth.

---

quote:

---

Also I thought you weren't into "Chest bumping" what happened ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
North Africans, both in contemporary times and historically, do not exhibit physical or genetic similarities to the ethnicities found in sub-Saharan Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Show me one post you have made here where you support or stress the idea that what you label as "black" has divesity and includes various peoples like HOA etc...

Go ahead post it...

Tell the Truth and Shame the Devil...

---

Sure no problem here with a quick search :

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Oh there isn't Ok, describe your defiition of Black and SSA...?

What is it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:Well you implied that North Africa was some kind of ancient utopia with blacks living peacefully among berbers while this couldn't be farther from the truth.

---

There's no point in asking you to actually show where I made such a claim, we already know how dishonest you are, the only one making a claim of any sort of peaceful coexistance in NA between various people was the OP, who is an actual intellectual and not a biodiversity google scholar debate bro..

How is me saying this historical fact that Berbers were subject people in Walata Chest Bumping, esp. in regards to your nonsensical fantasy about your ancestral pillaging, raping and enslaving of Africans to the south as some one sided LOTR GOT style epic...Your people got their asses kicked, it was just persistant raiding and pillaging over hundreds of years that won out in the end.

---

Lioness an intellectual...XD She can't even make the difference between autosomal results and Uniparentals just stop XD


Ah so now it's simply stating historical facts ? Strangely historical facts related to slavery weren't considered as such by yourself a few minutes ago so what happened ? Furthermore, my reference was to periods far earlier than the medieval era which by then had its fair share of black berbers ...seems like you already forgot about them.
 

---

Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
I asked you to post one comment where you stress the diversity of the people you call "Black" and SSA and you with a straight face post where you stress the diveristy of Africans in context of NA/SSA

You're not even trying anymore, which is weird because deep down you have to know you're lying.

You have literally posted here countless times what your def. of black and SSA is...now you're up here wasting both of our time pretending what you mean by Black/SSA is what it is...lol



Born in Sin, Come on in...

quote:

---

I'm genuinely perplexed by your strong reaction when I remark on their physical characteristics. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

There's no notion of a "true negro fallacy"; you simply lack a deep understanding of African phenotypes, and this is evident as you appear to superimpose your American experiences onto africans.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
I asked you to post one comment where you stress the diversity of the people you call "Black" and SSA and you with a straight face post where you stress the diveristy of Africans in context of NA/SSA

You're not even trying anymore, which is weird because deep down you have to know you're lying.

You have literally posted here countless times what your def. of black and SSA is...now you're up here wasting both of our time pretending what you mean by Black/SSA is what it is...lol


Born in Sin, Come on in...

quote:

---

I'm genuinely perplexed by your strong reaction when I remark on their physical characteristics.

---

Also by Antalas

quote:

---

There's no notion of a "true negro fallacy"; you simply lack a deep understanding of African phenotypes, and this is evident as you appear to superimpose your American experiences onto africans.

---

[/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
[QB] Lioness an intellectual...XD She can't even make the difference between autosomal results and Uniparentals just stop XD

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So Lioness is the one who studied and wrote the information from the book in the OP

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Ah so now it's simply stating historical facts ? Strangely historical facts related to slavery weren't considered as such by yourself a few minutes ago so what happened ? Furthermore, my reference was to periods far earlier than the medieval era which by then had its fair share of black berbers ...seems like you already forgot about them.

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Originally posted by Antalas:
[QB]
"Africa is not only genetically diverse but also culturally diverse"
"stop having this monolithic vision of Africa"
"It has the highest level of genetic diversity"
"Are you treating "Blacks" as a monolith ?"
"No one here has claimed that SSA are a genetic monolith"

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because you got upset by the fact that SSAs aren't physically as diverse as the european admixed afro-americans.

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
So Lioness is the one who studied and wrote the information from the book in the OP

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Just more strawman arguments and projection...

Claims I don't consider slavery a historical fact
-Will he provide evidence of this? Who Knows?

Keeps bringing up invasions because he's upset that his faux LOTR style one sided pillaging and raiding is contradcted by the fact that Bebers were subjected at various times...

Now the Medieval people had ...."its fair share of black berbers " two seconds from now.... BuT DeRe WeReNt NeVeR AnY BlAcK BuRbErZ

-Antalas'world.com [/QB]

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] This is how inept this dude is, in the very same comment he contradicts his own ideology....

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Originally posted by Antalas:
[QB]
"Africa is not only genetically diverse but also culturally diverse"
"stop having this monolithic vision of Africa"
"It has the highest level of genetic diversity"
"Are you treating "Blacks" as a monolith ?"
"No one here has claimed that SSA are a genetic monolith"

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in one Breath...

Then in the next

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because you got upset by the fact that SSAs aren't physically as diverse as the european admixed afro-americans.

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Are SSAs Diverse or are they no Diverse..??

Find out at antalas'world.com

Also notice how he's desperatly trying NOT to define his definition of black....Weird, Hmm I wonder why?

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Pay attention I suggested that : SSAs are culturally and genetically diverse. However they're physically much less diverse than afro-americans. Like I said you clearly don't really know much about african phenotypes hence why you always bring the true negro fallacy...probably thinking that SSAs have their Ice Spice type of "blacks" ...XD

I'm pretty sure you won't be able to differentiate crowds from Kenya, Nigeria, Benin or Togo meanwhile you can find pretty much anything under the "black" label in America.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Trade_in_the_Ancient_Sahara_and_Beyond/6ug7DwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Anatalas those image quotes
posted 24 October, 2023 01:28 PM
are kind of long long for the thread readability
can you turn those into URLs only?
OR
The images could fit if before copying them
you grab the corner of the window and make the window narrow so the type is the same size but it re-formats narrower, then snip
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

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Originally posted by Antalas:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[qb]

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Originally posted by Antalas:Well you implied that North Africa was some kind of ancient utopia with blacks living peacefully among berbers while this couldn't be farther from the truth.

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There's no point in asking you to actually show where I made such a claim, we already know how dishonest you are, the only one making a claim of any sort of peaceful coexistance in NA between various people was the OP, who is an actual intellectual and not a biodiversity google scholar debate bro..

How is me saying this historical fact that Berbers were subject people in Walata Chest Bumping, esp. in regards to your nonsensical fantasy about your ancestral pillaging, raping and enslaving of Africans to the south as some one sided LOTR GOT style epic...Your people got their asses kicked, it was just persistant raiding and pillaging over hundreds of years that won out in the end.

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Lioness an intellectual...XD She can't even make the difference between autosomal results and Uniparentals just stop XD

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QB]

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Originally posted by Antalas:
North Africans, both in contemporary times and historically, do not exhibit physical or genetic similarities to the ethnicities found in sub-Saharan Africa.

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Are these similar?

E1b1a

E1b1b

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After leaving Yusuf Ibn Tashfin in the north and returning south, Abu Bakr Ibn Umar reportedly made Azuggi his base. The town acted as the capital of the southern Almoravids under him and his successors. Despite the importance of the Saharan trade routes to the Almoravids, the history of the southern wing of the empire is not well documented in Arabic historical sources and is often neglected in histories of the Maghreb and al-Andalus. This has also encouraged a division in modern studies about the Almoravids, with archeology playing a greater role in the study of the southern wing, in the absence of more textual sources. The exact nature and impact of the Almoravid presence in the Sahel is a strongly debated topic among Africanists.

According to Arab tradition, the Almoravids under Abu Bakr's leadership conquered the Ghana Empire, founded by the Soninke, sometime around 1076–77. An example of this tradition is the record of historian Ibn Khaldun, who cited Shaykh Uthman, the faqih of Ghana, writing in 1394. According to this source, the Almoravids weakened Ghana and collected tribute from the Sudan, to the extent that the authority of the rulers of Ghana dwindled away, and they were subjugated and absorbed by the Sosso, a neighboring people of the Sudan.Traditions in Mali related that the Sosso attacked and took over Mali as well, and the ruler of the Sosso, Sumaouro Kanté, took over the land.

However, criticism from Conrad and Fisher (1982) argued that the notion of any Almoravid military conquest at its core is merely perpetuated folklore, derived from a misinterpretation or naive reliance on Arabic sources. According to Professor Timothy Insoll, the archaeology of ancient Ghana simply does not show the signs of rapid change and destruction that would be associated with any Almoravid-era military conquests.

Dierke Lange agreed with the original military incursion theory but argues that this doesn't preclude Almoravid political agitation, claiming that the main factor of the demise of the Ghana Empire owed much to the latter. According to Lange, Almoravid religious influence was gradual, rather than the result of military action; there the Almoravids gained power by marrying among the nation's nobility. Lange attributes the decline of ancient Ghana to numerous unrelated factors, one of which is likely attributable to internal dynastic struggles instigated by Almoravid influence and Islamic pressures, but devoid of military conquest.

This interpretation of events has been disputed by later scholars like Sheryl L. Burkhalter, who argued that, whatever the nature of the "conquest" in the south of the Sahara, the influence and success of the Almoravid movement in securing west African gold and circulating it widely necessitated a high degree of political control.

The traditional position says that the ensuing war with the Almoravids pushed Ghana over the edge, ending the kingdom's position as a commercial and military power by 1100. It collapsed into tribal groups and chieftaincies, some of which later assimilated into the Almoravids while others founded the Mali Empire.


The Arab geographer Ibn Shihab al-Zuhri wrote that the Almoravids ended Ibadi Islam in Tadmekka in 1084 and that Abu Bakr "arrived at the mountain of gold" in the deep south. Abu Bakr finally died in Tagant in November 1087 following an injury in battle—according to oral tradition, from an arrow[ – while fighting in the historic region of the Sudan.

After the death of Abu Bakr (1087), the confederation of Berber tribes in the Sahara was divided between the descendants of Abu Bakr and his brother Yahya, and would have lost control of Ghana. Sheryl Burkhalter suggests that Abu Bakr's son Yahya was the leader of the Almoravid expedition that conquered Ghana in 1076, and that the Almoravids would have survived the loss of Ghana and the defeat in the Maghreb by the Almohads, and would have ruled the Sahara until the end of the 12th century.

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A 15th century depiction of the 11th century Almoravid general Abu Bakr ibn Umar ("Rex Bubecar") near the Senegal River in 1413 Majorcan chart. Abu Bakr was known for his conquests in Africa.

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Given the scattered nature of the Arabic sources and the ambiguity of the existing archaeological record, it is difficult to determine when and how Ghana declined and fell. The earliest descriptions of the empire are vague as to its maximum extent, though according to al-Bakri, Ghana had forced Awdaghost in the desert to accept its rule sometime between 970 and 1054. By al-Bakri's own time, however, it was surrounded by powerful kingdoms, such as Sila.


A tradition in historiography maintains that Ghana fell when it was sacked by the Almoravid invasion in 1076–77, although Ghanaians resisted attacks for a decade, but this interpretation has been questioned. Conrad and Fisher (1982) argued that the notion of any Almoravid military conquest at its core is merely perpetuated folklore, derived from a misinterpretation or naive reliance on Arabic sources.Dierke Lange agrees but argues that this does not preclude Almoravid political agitation, claiming that Ghana's demise owed much to the latter. Sheryl L. Burkhalter (1992) was skeptical of Conrad and Fisher's arguments and suggested that there were reasons to believe that there was conflict between the Almoravids and the empire of Ghana. Furthermore, the archaeology of ancient Ghana does not show the signs of rapid change and destruction that would be associated with any Almoravid-era military conquests.

While there is no clear-cut account of a sack of Ghana in the contemporary sources, the country certainly did convert to Islam, for al-Idrisi, whose account was written in 1154, has the country fully Muslim by that date. Al-Idrisi's report does not give any reason to believe that the Empire was smaller or weaker than it had been in the days of al-Bakri, 75 years earlier. In fact, he describes its capital as "the greatest of all towns of the Sudan with respect to area, the most populous, and with the most extensive trade."

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Originally posted by Antalas:
Pay attention I suggested that : SSAs are culturally and genetically diverse.
However they're physically much less diverse than afro-americans.

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Originally posted by Firewall:


A 15th century depiction of the 11th century Almoravid general Abu Bakr ibn Umar ("Rex Bubecar") near the Senegal River in 1413 Majorcan chart. Abu Bakr was known for his conquests in Africa.

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It's not clear if the camel rider in Cresques' 1375 map is supposed to be a particular person.
There is nothing that suggests he's a leader.
He could be a tribal chief anyway.
In the later map of 1413 the camel rider is marked Rex Bubeder which some think is a version of "Boubacar" which is a version of Abu Bakr (which means "Father of a Young Camel")
But while Abraham Cresques lived 1325-1387 which was at the same time of Mansa Musa lived who ruled the Mali Kingdom until 1337 it is far later than the Amir of the Almoravids, Abu Bakr who died in 1087 (288 years earlier than the 1375 map or more with the 1413 map). It might still be Abu Bakr but
when these maps were made it would be far in time from anybody who was alive to have seen him.
there is a lot of color deterioration on the map.

enlargeable version:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mssusanb/50030912152/in/photolist-2je4v8E-2gbDCes
 

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Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Bottom line, these scholars keep promoting this idea that there is some 'mystery' about the Garamantes when there isn't. And the reason for that is the Garamantes are part of the ancient evolution that took place in the Sahara leading to various key developments such as pastoralism, early farming, etc. And most importantly, they are part of the evolution of language leading up to the Berber languages, which according to most linguists, migrated across the Sahara. So while some may have spoken Nilo Saharan, some form of proto Berber language elements had to also be there as well, both of which are African in origin. And these elements become significant in the history of "North Africa" which means that now they need to somehow be tied to 'superior' caucasoid Eruasians from coastal North Africa. All of which goes completely against all the facts and evidence on the history of the Sahara and evolution of society there which was primarily an African evolution.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

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Originally posted by Doug M:
Bottom line, these scholars keep promoting this idea that there is some 'mystery' about the Garamantes when there isn't.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ I read that study the when it came out. The results of heterogeneity aren't that surprising since other studies show the same. Antalas cited a study on proto-historical Punic remains here

On some skulls, there is a more or less accentuated platyrrhiny associated with a more or less marked prognathism. These are all traits that one might consider negroid. If one is only based on the association of these two traits, ten skulls could be considered as negroid. Some are typical, such as Gastel's skull 3.52 which has a sub-nasal groove, flattened nasal bones, accentuated facial and alveolar prognathism, an erased chin, as well as Djelfa's wife (2.11) whose face, although narrow and long, is strongly prognathic with a grooved infra-nasal rim, flattened nasal bones and, a cultural trait common in African Melanoderms, an image of an upper incisor. Others are less typically negroid, but can nevertheless be considered as such, they are the skulls of Beidj (2.10), Tiddis (5.02), Roknia (3.05 and 3.37), Gastel (3.54), Sigus (coll. Thomas 3.79) , Carthage (4.27 and 4.36).

The nose has an average width in absolute value, its height is quite high. The individual distribution of the index is however quite variable with a similar number of lepto- and mesorhinal individuals among protohistoric, Punic and Roman men. Women are more Mesorhinian. We also note the existence of a significant proportion of Platyrrhine individuals (25% of men and women) in protohistoric and Roman burials in Algeria. They are much rarer in Punic burials.



^ That monument bears a striking resemblance to the 'divine fingers' stelae in West Asia.

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Originally posted by Doug M:
Exactly, they have always tried to impose these 'racial' characteristics on ancient African remains from Mechtoid to Mediterranean, even on sites far to the South in Gobero, which has been discussed here numerous times before. And the funny part with this study is they don't even compare these skulls with those other Saharan sites.

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Of the main interest during this period is the evidence of some 'gender'-specific variations. For the late 3rd millennium bp, especially in the cemetery of Tahala, we have genetic indication of a marked sub-Saharan flow in the females, when compared to the males: this may be cautiously related to an increasing exogamy of these pastoral groups. Moreover, the 'black', sub-Saharan pool may be hypothetically considered as a first attestation of the practice to get women from southernmost territories. This practice lasted for millennia: according to the historians, Garamantes sacked women from the south, and this habit has been rather spread until the last centuries, especially within the Tuareg and Tebu populations (e.g., Fantoli 1933). Combining this evidence with archaeological data, the marked articulation of the ritual practices well matches with the diffusion of these structures in a 'mixed' and increasingly stratified society.

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The excavation of 32 Proto-Urban burials (c.500-1 BC) has shed light on the nature of burial rite and grave inclusions prior to the mass influx of imported Mediterranean goods in the first century AD. Ceramics were uncommonly used in funerary contexts at this time (9 of 32 burials) - and many of the finds of early ceramics in the cemetery zones seem to relate to their use as offering vessels outside of tombs. The main classes of goods that can be identified as intentional grave offerings in the early periods were beads and amulets (22 of 32 burials), with a persistent presence of organic materials, such as foodstuffs, textile shrouds or garments, leather shrouds, headrests and matting. A number of unusual inorganic finds can also be highlighted as in the case of the young woman buried with a haematite lip-plug or another woman with a lump of red ochre bound to her hand. In the Classic Garamantian period (c.AD 1-400, 107 burials), there was an extraordinary rise in the numbers and range of material placed in Garamantian burials of all types, most obviously pottery (both imports and handmade vessels) and glass vessels (97 of 107 burials).

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The combination of morphometric and isotopic work further reinforces the view that Garamantian society included individuals of diverse geographical origin, some of whom may have been first generation Trans-Saharan migrants. These findings are reinforced by the discovery of the interment of a young woman of Sub-Saharan physiognomy wearing a distinctive lip plug of Sahelian type excavated during the Desert Migrations Project, dating to the later first millennium BC. This ornament demonstrates that some Garamantian individuals shared aspects of their material culture with Sahelian societies more broadly, either through migration or contact, while their burial within Garamantian cemeteries shows their integration into the normative funerary rituals of contemporary Garamantian society as suggested by the results of the isotopic and craniometrics analyses. In combination, these results support the hypothesis of a vivid trading community that maintained a resident population through centuries, and one which was enriched by multiple-sourced Trans-Saharan migrations, as offered throughout this volume.

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Usually the potter in a household production is a female member of the family, a fact confirmed by numerous ethnographic parallels in the Sahel area as well (e.g. Gallay et al. 1996). If Garamantian pottery was made by a female family member in every village of Fezzan, always following the same tradition from the beginning (roulette decoration, globular jars and grog inclusions), we may wonder if this happened because the potter was always a woman of Sahelian origins, using techniques learned from her mother and part of her own group identity. Since this tradition was not present in Fezzan prior to the Final Pastoral and is clearly associated with Garamantian culture, we must assume that the potter did not belong to earlier (Pastoral) local groups. The anthropological evidence showing a southern connection for some female bodies of the Final Pastoral, as well as historical sources describing Garamantes abducting women from the south (di Lernia and Manzi eds. 2002; cf. Chapter 37) seems to confirm this hypothesis. In my opinion, we are not dealing with "black women slaves" but with women who were part of the family (intermarriage). As mentioned above, the Final Pastoral is a period of a "multi-faceted" culture with influences from all over North Africa. With this in mind, it is illogical that the pottery shows no variation, particularly if the ceramic production was connected with the elite or with special functions within the society. Moreover, within the family there were certainly women of different provenance and
again it is unclear why none of them was manufacturing pottery in their own tradition. The only explanation I can suggest at the moment is that making pottery was a "secondary" activity in Garamantian society and was the prerogative of women of a specific provenance. A sort of "caste", like the forgeron in Tuareg society, is a possible hypothesis. It is interesting to note that in
the modern societies of the Inland Niger Delta potters are always wives and daughters of craftsmen, who thus belong to a specific caste (Gallay et al. 1996). The peculiarity of this situation seems not to be connected with the highest class (elite) but with the lowest rank of Garamantian society.

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Discovery of artefacts and practices correlating to particular Sub-Saharan cultural systems might provide further insights into contacts between these regions, but the specificity of such practices must be kept in mind. Pot burials were distinctive of southern Lake Chad Basin sites, for example, but there is no reason to think that such burials would be permitted among enslaved people in Fazzan. The fascinating discovery of a female burial with a lip-plug in a Garamantian cemetery certainly hints at Sub-Saharan affinities, but provides little further information than that, given the wide distribution of this artefact type. Other artefact types and production techniques (for example, hand-made pottery or roulette decoration) may also indicate Sub-Saharan origins, but again provide rather little specific information on where those origins might be. A significant sample of distinctive decorative motifs might show the movement of pots themselves, while analyses of forming practices in the ‘chaîne opératoire’ of ceramic production could indicate the presence of Sub-Saharan potters on Garamantian sites – but to this point samples do not exist for these investigations. It is likely that, in the medium term at least, archaeometric analyses of specific artefact types found on either Saharan or Sub-Saharan sites will continue to provide the most useful information on material flows, whether these involve ceramics, stone or glass beads or other materials that can often be sourced with some precision.

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I have been unable to find samples of Tibu pottery in British museums for comparison, but as the nomadic Arabs do not make pottery, there can be little doubt that these pots are of Tibu origin.
Rough pottery is made by both the Tibu of Tibesti, and the Guraan and Bideyat of Ouadaï and Ennedi. Some half a dozen baskets of various types were found, in both plaited and coiled techniques. Most of the latter were shallow, round, basin-like vessels; the former limp bags very similar to the maktaf of the Egyptian fellahin.

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The presence of both pearl millet and sorghum suggest first millennium BC diffusion of arable traditions from the Sahel, while cotton must have spread westwards from Nubia and the Egyptian oases by the later Classical Garamantian period.

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The similarities under discussion are lately also the consequence of stable, long-distance contacts between the various north African regions as part of the trans-Saharan caravan trade circuit. In this context, it is interesting to note that all the aforementioned regions connect the central Sahara with the Inland Niger Delta on one side, and with the Sudanese Nile Valley on the other, both the southern ends of the trans-Saharan trade circuit. However, it must be remembered that the Garamantian pottery tradition originates in around the beginning of the first millennium BC, during the Final Pastoral phase, while the trans-Saharan circuit, according to ancient sources and as noted by Liverani (cf. Chapter 36), developed some centuries later with the foundation of Phoenician, Greek and Roman colonies along the north African coast. Consequently, we should probably seek a different cause for the rise of the Garamantian pottery (and cultural) tradition, more related to the cultural dynamics of the Final Pastoral than to the caravan circuit.

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Those taking Herodotus' account verbatim might be disappointed that he remained silent on living merchandises potentially added to that gold
(such as humans, i.e. slaves), but other parts of his text are conveniently interpreted with a view to slave raiding and trading: the Garamantes hunting the swift-footed Aithiopian Troglodytes on four-horse chariots. Whilst the chariots are identified in the form of Saharan rock art, the Troglodytes remain mysterious. Although the ancient Greek text does neither state whether these hunts were slave raids or not, nor where they actually took place, the frequent re-interpretation of this text passage was jointly responsible for the creation of the myth of Saharan slave raids against Black Africans in classical times.

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Most authors support the theory that Muzzolini’s “groupe d’Iheren-Tahilahi” pictographs and similar paintings show “proto-Berbers”. “Horse Period” images, and to a certain extent also “Camel Period” pictures, are usually interpreted in connection with North African groups as well. Especially “flying gallop chariots”, like the ones at Tamajert (Tassili) and Ti-n-Anneuin (Acacus), have been repeatedly linked to the Garamantes. Crude “Horse” and “Camel Period” petroglyphs which are vaguely reminiscent of Ancient Egyptian pictures of plumed “Libyans” have become known as “Libyan Warriors”. More or less limited to the Adrar des Ifoghas (Mali), the Aïr and the Northern Tibesti, they typically depict men armed with spears whose heads are adorned with large feathers. As far as the “Pastoral Period” and the later phases are concerned, it appears that, generally speaking, biologically sub-Saharan populations were gradually replaced by biologically “mixed” and biologically North African groups in the Sahara’s more northerly regions. It should, however, be borne in mind that this change was probably not a uniform process.

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Originally posted by Lioness:

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A visual comparison of the face of ZIN013.T171 and GSC030.T4 (SM-K1) clearly illustrates the differences identified here (Fig. 4.6). If GSC030 is correctly identified as a Late Garamantian royal cemetery, the presence of individuals with features that are typically Sub-Saharan alongside individuals with features more typical of the overall al-Ajal sample is an interesting reflection on the possibilities of Garamantian social structures.

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various passages written by, for example, Herodotos, Strabon and Ptolemaeus indicate that the Garamantes of the Fezzan used chariots to raid the “Ethiopians” of the African interior. These sources also imply that the Garamantes were, in regard to their own status as “Ethiopians”, either not a homogeneous group or a population whose ancestry was “mixed”.

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Ethiopians are so called after a son of Ham named Cush, from whom they have their origin. In Hebrew, Cush means "Ethiopian." 128. This nation, which formerly emigrated from the region of the river Indus, settled next to Egypt between the Nile and the Ocean, in the south very close to the sun. There are three tribes of Ethiopians: Hesperians, Garamantes, and Indians. Hesperians are of the West, Garamantes of Tripolis, and the Indians of the East. 129. The Trochodites (i.e. Troglodytes) are a tribe of Ethiopians so called because they run with such speed that they chase down wild animals on foot (cf. тpoxázev, "run quickly"; TρéXEIV, "run"). 130. The Pamphagians are also in Ethiopia. Their food is whatever can be chewed, and anything living that they come upon-whence they are named (cf. wav-, "all"; payɛiv, "eat"). 131. Icthyophagians (cf. Ix90s, "fish"), who excel in fishing at sea and survive on fish alone. They occupy the mountainous regions beyond the Indians, and Alexander the Great conquered them and forbade them to eat fish. 132. Anthropophagians are a very rough tribe situated below the land of the Sirices. They feed on human flesh and are therefore named 'maneaters' (anthropophagus; cf. äv9pwπos, "man"). As is the case for these nations, so for others the names have changed over the centuries in accordance with their kings, or their locations, or their customs, or for whatever other reasons, so that the primal origin of their names from the passage of time is no longer evident.

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Another reason for negative portrayal of blacks in Roman literature is the pressure exerted by Saharan tribesmen (many of whom would have undoubtedly had dark skin color) on the southern African fringe of the Roman Empire in late third century. Some of these people were marauders and traders who began to threaten the countryside and emerald mines of Upper Egypt after centuries of peaceful Roman-Meroitic relations, but the threat of menace from Saharan barbari was felt throughout the southern parts of every Roman African province. It would be instructive to here look at an epigram by an anonymous Romano-African poem describing a Saharan marauder from the south:

The riff-raff of the Garamantians [Saharan tribe] came up to our part of the world, and a
black slave rejoices in his pitch-colored body; a frightful spook who would scare even grown by
his appearance were it not that the sounds issuing from his lips proclaim him human.
Hadrumeta [a town in modern-day Tunisia], let the fearsome regions of the dead carry off for
their own use this weird creature of yours. He ought to be standing guard at the home of the
god of the nether world (Anth. Lat. 183; cf. Thompson 1989.36).

This is the most extended and vitriolic denunciation of the black somatic type I have yet encountered in my readings. It stands out for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the Latin word translated “riff-raff” is faex, which could also be translated “shit.” Such a term degrades the people with which it is associated to a sub-human standing. Secondly, Thompson points out that the violent tone of this piece suggests something beyond “a simple sensory aversion to negritude, mockery of an alien and unfamiliar somatic appearance, or a concern with voicing a stereotype [of an association with death] of the Aethiops” (1989.37). He observes that the Latin for “slave” here is verna, which could more specifically mean “household slave.” This would mean that the black slave who is rejoicing in the second line is not one of the Garamantians who had been captured and brought up to Hadrumetum, but a black slave born and bred in the city, who finds the bringing of another black-colored slave from the south a cause for celebration. Thus, “we may have here an imputation which presumes sympathy and collaboration with barbarian marauders from the Sahara on the part of one or more local blacks at Hadrumetum, and the hostility reflected by the epic would thus also possess a scapegoating dimension” (1989.37). Assuming that the slaves of Hadrumetum are not Garamantian in origin, this passage could be the only insinuation of a “brotherhood” of Aethiops types in the Roman Empire based primarily on somatic similarity.

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It remains uncertain to what extent this represented a large-scale migration of ‘Mediterranean’ Africans taking over spaces formerly occupied by the Neolithic herders or on the other hand an amalgamation of surviving elements of the Neolithic pastoralists with smaller Berber elements. The rock art evidence suggests that the pastoralists associated with the early phases of Neolithic rock art were primarily black, but in the Late Pastoral period there are also images of light-skinned people of different physiognomy. Some of the evidence from the Early Garamantian phase supports the amalgamation theory, rather than the notion of direct replacement. In particular, the Early Garamantian funerary structures and settlements like Zinkekra featured material elements that were very similar to the Late Pastoral ones, alongside things that were obvious innovations brought from outside the Sahara. Whilst some, such as the developed agricultural package, attest to connection with the Nilo-Mediterranean world, others, such as the ceramic technology with roulette decoration and grog temper, attest to connection with West and Sub-Saharan Africa.6 The latter reminds us that the amalgamation process relied on multidirectional connectedness.

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One might be tempted to argue that the more tropical build of Ain Dokhara 1 suggests that humans associated with the Capsian industry reflect a later increase in gene flow and/or migration from subSaharan Africa, with the Capsians genetically distinct from the older ‘Iberomaurusian’ populations (an argument that has been made historically: Camps, 1974; Dutour, 1995; but see Lubell et al., 1984; Irish, 2000).

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At some time, perhaps around the end of the second millennium, frescos begin to show elongated white men with characteristic long hair and pointed beards. Some confirmation of this racial shift comes from physical anthropology, although the skeletons seem to show closer resemblance to groups from the upper Nile Valley than to contemporary material from the Maghreb.

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Preliminary results obtained from ancient DNA studies are presented in Chapter 13, by Carla Babalini and co-workers. Mitochondrial DNA extraction was attempted upon a sub-sample of human teeth from ten individuals. The mtDNA locus was selected due to its maternal inheritance pattern, high copy number, simple structure and relatively fast rate of mutational change. Analysis was undertaken upon the two hypervariable regions and region V. The authors report that the mtDNA from the individuals from site 96/129 was reasonably distinct from that obtained from the other sampled material. Only one individual was fully characterised, and was found to be a member of an African haplotype (L3).

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Herodotus speaks firstly of an unwarlike tribe of Garamantes near the Mediterranean coast, to the north of the Psylli and Nasamones; secondly, inland in the desert he speaks of (1) the Ammonians, (2) Augila, whence the Nasamones fetch dates, (3) the Garamantes who hunt the Troglodytes of Egypt in chariots and live 30 days from the land of the Lotophagi. Herodotus says all these people in the interior are nomads… The general impression deducible from these quotations is that the Garamantes were a nomad race covering a very
large stretch of country from Fezzán (and even north of it) as far as Upper Egypt: they may have extended even further south, for to the historian writing in the north, the wide spaces of the south would naturally be foreshortened. So then, if we make all allowances for the vagueness of the old geographists it will appear that, on the west, the country at present inhabited by the Kura'án; on the south-east, the "desert of Goran"; and, on the north, the southern part of the country of the ancient Garamantes, may be said jointly to include those inhospitable tracts over which the Eastern Tuwarek (part descendants of the old nomad Berbers) and Tibbu still roam.

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Meanwhile the ancient Romans themselves racialized NW Africans as BLACK (with a few exceptions).

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Of some relevance to your post, here's Snowden on those very exceptional North Africans:



Some modern commentary:









 

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Posted by Shebitku (Member # 23742) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:

You can be a black berber...

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The Berbers and Moroccans appear more closely related to European and European-derived populations, whereas the Nubians and Tuareg show a closer genetic affinity to the south-Saharan peoples.

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A significant paternal contribution from south-Saharan Africa (E-U175, haplogroup E1b1a8) was also detected, which may likely be due to recent secondary introduction, possibly through slavery practices or fusion between different tribal groups.

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Overall, the two major haplogroups observed in the Libyan Tuareg are the south-Saharan E1b1a8 (43%) and the Northwest African E1b1b1b (49%), which were detected by screening the biallelic markers U175 and M81, respectively. The high incidence of these two haplogroups is responsible for the low genetic diversity values encountered in the Libyan Tuareg (H 5 0.200 6 0.154 in Tahala, and H 5 0.602 6 0.048 in Al Awaynat, Fig. 1), and their contribution to the gene pool of the two villages in Fezzan appears to be different: E1b1b1b was predominant (89%) versus E1b1a8 (11%) in Tahala, whereas its frequency was lower (39%) in Al Awaynat where the main haplogroup was E1b1a8 (50%)

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Interestingly, the North African E1b1b1b appears to constitute a common paternal genetic matrix in the Tuareg populations since it was encountered at high frequency also in some samples from the Sahel region (Pereira et al., 2010). Specifically, E1b1b1b was found to be dominant in Tahala (89%) and in the Tuareg samples from Burkina Faso (Gorom-Gorom, 78%) and Mali (Gossi, 82%), which explains the cluster observed in the MDS analysis. Differently, in Al Awaynat, as well as in the Tuareg sample from Niger (Tanut), the south-Saharan haplogroup E1b1a was found to be predominant, with frequencies of 50 and 44%, respectively.

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Phylogeographic analysis of L0a1a highlighted a genetic affinity of the Libyan Tuaregs with the Northeast African and the Near Eastern populations. More particularly, this holds true when the Libyan Tuareg L2a1 lineages were grouped with the 16189–16192-16309A! sub-branch. Interestingly, the coalescence age calculated in the typically Near Eastern 16189–16192-16309A! cluster of full mtDNAs (16,012 yrs, SD 5,661) was very close to the values observed in the L0a1a cluster (i.e., 14,678 yrs, SD 4,811). Noteworthy is that similar coalescence ages and geographic distributions were observed in the Y-chromosome haplogroup E-V12∗ (Cruciani et al., 2007), which is related to the movement of people from East Africa northward through the Nile Valley and spreading also into the Central Sahara and the Arabian peninsula. Accordingly, a relationship between the L2a1 and L0a1a mtDNA lineages and this migration flow is proposed.

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The mtDNA analysis helped to characterise the Libyan Tuaregs as a mixed group in which two main components are present. A European component, marked by haplogroups H1 and V, is strongly predominant and is shared with some Berber groups and other north African populations as well. Also present is a typically south Saharan component that shows a genetic relationship with Eastern African populations. The L2a1 and L0a1a lineages could be related to the movement of people from Eastern Africa approximately 15,000 years ago

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The situation with Afroasiatic populations is similarly complex. Tuareg populations’ genetic affinities fall between those of other Berber-speaking populations and various West African and Northeast African groups (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994:172, Rando et al. 1998, Cerny et al. 2004), to a degree mirroring their intermediate position between North Africa and sub-Saharan Africa, even though Tuareg populations have often been considered Hamites and/or ‘Caucasoids’. Ancient mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) recovered from mid-Holocene archaeological sites in the central Sahara, in areas now occupied by Berber populations, yielded similar results (Babalini et al. 2002, di Lernia 2006).

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Within the Saharan/Northern African group there are two subclusters. One is comprised of a number of “national” North African populations (Moroccan, Tunisian, Libyan, Egyptian), as well as Nubian, Bedouin, Berber, and Canarian. Cavalli-Sforza et al. ( 1994 : 172 ) note that there are few data available on the genetic makeup of the Canarian group, and it is not clear whether they are data on modern peoples or on the extinct Guanches. The other cluster consists of a number of Northeast African populations, including the national Sudanese and a generalized Cushitic-speaking group. Within this Northeast African group, one subcluster does not conform to historical or linguistic expectations, as it associates the Algerian national population fairly closely with the Beja of eastern Sudan and somewhat more distantly with the Berber-speaking Tuareg; the latter group thus appears to be rather distinct from other Berber populations. Cavalli-Sforza et al. (pp. 172 – 73 ) posit an ancient relationship between Tuareg and Beja, largely, it appears, on the basis of their shared status as pastoralists. There are no other data that I know of that indicate such a link, and in any case it does not explain the putative close relationship of modern Algerians to both groups. The researchers note that they have data on relatively few genes from this Algerian group, but it should be pointed out that such small data sets are no obstacle to the acceptance of particular genetic associations when these fit their expectations—the Canarian case noted above is a good example.

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The Tuareg presently live in the Sahara and the Sahel. Their ancestors are commonly believed to be the Garamantes of the Libyan Fezzan, ever since it was suggested by authors of antiquity. Biological evidence, based on classical genetic markers, however, indicates kinship with the Beja of Eastern Sudan. Our study of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences and Y chromosome SNPs of three different southern Tuareg groups from Mali, Burkina Faso and the Republic of Niger reveals a West Eurasian-North African composition of their gene pool. The data show that certain genetic lineages could not have been introduced into this population earlier than B9000 years ago whereas local expansions establish a minimal date at around 3000 years ago. Some of the mtDNA haplogroups observed in the Tuareg population were involved in the post-Last Glacial Maximum human expansion from Iberian refugia towards both Europe and North Africa. Interestingly, no Near Eastern mtDNA lineages connected with the Neolithic expansion have been observed in our population sample. On the other hand, the Y chromosome SNPs data show that the paternal lineages can very probably be traced to the Near Eastern Neolithic demic expansion towards North Africa, a period that is otherwise concordant with the above-mentioned mtDNA expansion. The time frame for the migration of the Tuareg towards the African Sahel belt overlaps that of early Holocene climatic changes across the Sahara (from the optimal greening B10 000 YBP to the extant aridity beginning at B6000 YBP) and the migrations of other African nomadic peoples in the area.

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When Cavalli-Sforza et al. (1994: 172-73) noted the anomaly that the Tuareg (Kel Tamasheq), a Berber-speaking pastoral people of so- called Mediterranean stock, were estimated to be genetically closest to the Beja, a Cushitic-speaking pastoral group from further east in the Sudan, this went against the assumed history of Saharan people. This lead MacEachern (2000: 364) to correctly note, "there are no other data I know of that indicate such a link." But perhaps this indication of possible links is not as outrageous as it first seems. I have already shown that there are good archaeological reasons to support large-scale cultural connections over huge areas of the Sahara, and present-day herders both in the Sahara and the Sahel are distributed across large regions, so perhaps we should not be so surprised to find their imprint in the present.

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It is likely that most of the Tuareg E1b1b1b Y-chromosomes (i.e., 13 out of 23, 57%) are related to an expansion event that took place about 2.6 kya in an ancestral population inhabiting a region between Tunisia and the Central Sahara. This event may have coincided with an expansion that led to the formation of derived Tunisian and Central Saharan populations, with the latter, in turn, contributing to the paternal genetic pool of the Tuareg villages in Fezzan. Interestingly, a maternal genetic link with Tunisia, the time estimates of which are compatible with a population split that may have occurred in the second half of the Holocene, was also observed at the level of the African mtDNA H1 phylogeny (Ottoni et al., 2010). This suggests that the same ancestral population may have contributed to the paternal and maternal genetic pool of the Libyan Tuareg.

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The mitochondrial DNA variation of 295 Berber-speakers from Morocco (Asni, Bouhria and Figuig) and the Egyptian oasis of Siwa was evaluated by sequencing a portion of the control region (including HVS-I and part of HVS-II) and surveying haplogroup-specific coding region markers. Our findings show that the Berber mitochondrial pool is characterized by an overall high frequency of Western Eurasian haplogroups, a somehow lower frequency of sub-Saharan L lineages, and a significant (but differential) presence of North African haplogroups U6 and M1, thus occupying an intermediate position between European and sub-Saharan populations in PCA analysis. A clear and significant genetic differentiation between the Berbers from Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers was also observed. The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa. We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating

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This is the same tactics they use with the Nubians, on the 3 Abracts/Leaks thread I decided to read some of that Miro guys posts and he had a tweet about how Afrocentrics "True Ancestors" were the Subjected NHSY war prisoners from Egyptian War Propaganda on the Temple walls...

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Miro is just one of many MENA nationalists trying to one up the "Afro-Centrics". To my understanding his "data" isn't linked to the Schuenemann paper as afew weeks later there was a email from one of the authors also posted on twitter saying such. Although his "data" might be from another paper that may come in afew years, as he was also tweeting about the fact that a certain German anthropologist had got into a "spat" with a group of certain "afro-centrics", who may or may not post here, and started leaking it to people. It's not new.



He also allegedly has "data" showing that west african civilizations were started by "white eurasians". Keep in mind he's speaking to Robert Sepher in the above about how "backward" black people are....

quote:

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Also notice how he's desperatly trying NOT to define his definition of black....Weird, Hmm I wonder why?

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aslo were'nt Berbers tribute paying subjects in Walata for example, I doubt this was the outlier..

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Located on Lake Chad's northwestern edge, Kanem's meteoric rise from a territory of loosely connected nomadic groups in the fourth/tenth century to a powerful, urban-based realm in the sixth/twelfth is directly connected to slaving.51 Slaving's importance is reflected in Ibn Sa'id's comments during the reign of Mai Dunama Dubbalemi (599-639/1203-42), and concerns "Berber followers who were converted to Islam by Ibn Habal the sultan of Kanim. They are his slaves. He uses them on his raids and takes advantage of their camels, which have filled these regions."52 Ibn Sa'id discusses the familiar notion of slavery in a most unfamiliar way, as Berbers are usually depicted as enslaving and converting "blacks." As such, he opens a very different vista onto the imprecise, fluid, and surprising configuration of bilad as-sudan, revealing an evolving view of the Lake Chad quadrant, where Kanem is consistently identified with the Zaghawa/ Zaghawā (the apparent progenitors of the Kanuri).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lioness:

A ton of quotes, what's your point?

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You may have thought i was joking when i said that he's calling the Tubu black solely because they speak a Nilo-Saharan language, but im very serious. His "Blacks" dont speak Afro-Asiatic languages with the exception being the Chadic's

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The colonial conquerors saw the upper strata of Tuareg society as white and, according to some, even of European descent. They have been portrayed, among other things, as the descendants of the Vandals, lost crusaders, or even a Caucasian-populated sunken Atlantis (Henry 1996). Meanwhile, the lower strata of Tuareg society, the slaves and blacksmiths, were seen as racially black. Thus, in colonial European presentations of African history, the Tuareg elite was presented as an alien invader which had subdued an indigenous African population, an image that would resurface at various times after independence. In the colonial mind, Tuareg society and its historical white European origins mirrored the colonial project itself. This may have been at the root of the positive appreciation of Tuareg society by French colonial rulers.

To the Malian administration, the Tuareg elite was just as white as it had been to the colonial administration. However, where the latter appreciated their whiteness positively, the Malian Government saw it as a sign of otherness and as a threat. In the 1950s and in the first years after independence, the Malian political leaders made it quite clear that they perceived the Tuareg their whiteness and their way of life as a problem (Lecocq 2002). In the vision of ruling US-RDA politicians, the Tuareg had been colonial favourites because of their whiteness, which had given them a misplaced superiority complex.

As for the Tuareg themselves, their own concepts of race have slightly more sophisticated nuances, but they are nevertheless important in classifying people. Three physical categories are perceived: koual, black; shaggaran, red; and sattafan, greenish or shiny black. Social status is connected to these categories. Koual is the appearance of the blacksmiths and slaves,- shaggaran is associated with the free, but not the noble,- and sattafan is the colour of nobility. Finally, we could note the specifically racial denominator esherdan in the Air and Hoggar dialects, which means mulatto of a "black" and a "red" parent - black and red here meaning African and Arab-Berber, not slave and master (Alojaly 1980)

Thus, local terms to describe racial and social status cannot easily be translated into Western racial or racialist concepts as the French conquerors did. Yet, that is what happened. In 1951, a French Commander could still note about the Tuareg nobility of the Niger Bend, which would most likely be qualified as sattafan, that "many are black and generally do not have the noble appearance of the inhabitants of the [Algerian] Hoggar." Through their own racial bias and despite fifty years of colonial presence, the French commanders translated shaggaran (red) as "white" and "white" as nobles. Indigenous Tuareg physical distinctions have gradually incorporated these more European notions. When speaking French, a Tuareg will now translate koual as "noir." However, both shaggaran (red) and sattafan (greenish black) will be translated "blanc."

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Analysis of the eghawelen among the Kel Antessar requires bridging the ideological divide between whites (imashaghen), also known as reds (ishaggaghen), and blacks (imikwalan), as well as recognizing status boundaries between the free (illelan) and the descendants of slaves whom imashaghen still refer to as bellah.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Baalberith:

quote:

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You may have thought i was joking when i said that he's calling the Tubu black solely because they speak a Nilo-Saharan language, but im very serious. His "Blacks" dont speak Afro-Asiatic languages with the exception being the Chadic's

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Just to expand on this, the Tuaregs have been known to display a degree of colorism and tend to distinguished themselves from much darker skinned Africans within their society. That being said, their racial perceptions were inappropriately conflated with Western norms, which had dire consequences on ethnic relations in Mali after Colonialism. In reality, they traditionally identified themselves as "red", and have used "white" and even "green" interchangeably:

quote:

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The colonial conquerors saw the upper strata of Tuareg society as white and, according to some, even of European descent. They have been portrayed, among other things, as the descendants of the Vandals, lost crusaders, or even a Caucasian-populated sunken Atlantis (Henry 1996). Meanwhile, the lower strata of Tuareg society, the slaves and blacksmiths, were seen as racially black. Thus, in colonial European presentations of African history, the Tuareg elite was presented as an alien invader which had subdued an indigenous African population, an image that would resurface at various times after independence. In the colonial mind, Tuareg society and its historical white European origins mirrored the colonial project itself. This may have been at the root of the positive appreciation of Tuareg society by French colonial rulers.

To the Malian administration, the Tuareg elite was just as white as it had been to the colonial administration. However, where the latter appreciated their whiteness positively, the Malian Government saw it as a sign of otherness and as a threat. In the 1950s and in the first years after independence, the Malian political leaders made it quite clear that they perceived the Tuareg their whiteness and their way of life as a problem (Lecocq 2002). In the vision of ruling US-RDA politicians, the Tuareg had been colonial favourites because of their whiteness, which had given them a misplaced superiority complex.

As for the Tuareg themselves, their own concepts of race have slightly more sophisticated nuances, but they are nevertheless important in classifying people. Three physical categories are perceived: koual, black; shaggaran, red; and sattafan, greenish or shiny black. Social status is connected to these categories. Koual is the appearance of the blacksmiths and slaves,- shaggaran is associated with the free, but not the noble,- and sattafan is the colour of nobility. Finally, we could note the specifically racial denominator esherdan in the Air and Hoggar dialects, which means mulatto of a "black" and a "red" parent - black and red here meaning African and Arab-Berber, not slave and master (Alojaly 1980)

Thus, local terms to describe racial and social status cannot easily be translated into Western racial or racialist concepts as the French conquerors did. Yet, that is what happened. In 1951, a French Commander could still note about the Tuareg nobility of the Niger Bend, which would most likely be qualified as sattafan, that "many are black and generally do not have the noble appearance of the inhabitants of the [Algerian] Hoggar." Through their own racial bias and despite fifty years of colonial presence, the French commanders translated shaggaran (red) as "white" and "white" as nobles. Indigenous Tuareg physical distinctions have gradually incorporated these more European notions. When speaking French, a Tuareg will now translate koual as "noir." However, both shaggaran (red) and sattafan (greenish black) will be translated "blanc."

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Source: https://sci-hub.se/https://www.jstor.org/stable/25067450

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Analysis of the eghawelen among the Kel Antessar requires bridging the ideological divide between whites (imashaghen), also known as reds (ishaggaghen), and blacks (imikwalan), as well as recognizing status boundaries between the free (illelan) and the descendants of slaves whom imashaghen still refer to as bellah.

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Source: https://www.cairn.info/revue-l-ouest-saharien-2020-1-page-249.htm

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The point is that Europeans have always tried to claim any kind of culture in North Africa as originating with whites, including the Tuaregs.

We need to separate fantasy from reality:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuareg_%E2%80%93_The_Desert_Warrior

Anyone can look up the numerous examples of Tuareg chiefs that the French and others have dealt with over the last 100 years. None of them look anywhere close to white. Not to mention, recall the recent history in Libya, where Kaddafi was claimed to be backed by 'black' Tuaregs from the South before he died. Then after the war, the narrative changed to 'non black' Tuaregs from Libya bring conflict to Mali and Niger.

The core issue is that in the history of populations in the Sahara, features such as long narrow faces evolved among Africans and are indigenous to Africa. Europeans love to claim that these represent "racial" characteristics unique to Europeans or Eurasians which is false. Such features are found all over Africa, in the Sahara, Sahel, the Horn and other parts of Africa. And it is these features that ultimately would be the truest definition or origin of so called "Mediterranean" features where populations with dark skin and straighter hair were common across parts of Northern Africa and into Southern Europe in more ancient times.

And no, I am not denying variation in skin color among indigenous African populations. I am saying this variation historically is based on evolution and separate from any mixture which happened over time.

Tunisians

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cantelmodecantelmi/524877686/


Dassine Oult Yemma and Moussa Ag Amastan, Tuareg chief during French colonial era:

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-dassine-poetess-22265497.html?imageid=F88B6D06-DFE1-480F-AA09-A9EEBC9BEAD1&p=551249&pn=3

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moussa_Ag_Amastan

Ethiopian with "caucasoid" features:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/digital_don/2273782778/in/set-72157600200187084/


The point being when all these papers talk about variation in ancient African crania as proof of "non African" features you have to see it as denying indigenous African diversity.

We have discussed this numerous times before:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009525;p=4#000196

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=010526;p=1

Ancient depictions of Cretans in Nile Valley art:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cretans_Bringing_Gifts,_Tomb_of_Rekhmire_MET_DT10883.jpg
 

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Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
Interesting
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

you've made this comment in reply to a Djehuti quote but in that Djehuti quote he said nothing about imposing racial traits
He was doing the opposite, pointing out "negroid" racial traits in proto-historical Punic remains rather than saying 'racial' characteristics should not be imposed

He says
"The results of heterogeneity aren't that surprising "

He did not say "look how they are calling these remains 'negroid', at it again imposing racial characteristics, wrong"

Djehuti might agree with your remark but your remark does not make sense in reply he said in that quote.
What he's doing here is saying, look, there were more negroids over here
Even though he is battling Antalas does not mean every time he quotes him he is disputing his info.

Also issues raised of the Garmantes site in Libya
are not instantly resolved by looking at Gobero in Niger.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

you've made this comment in reply to a Djehuti quote but in that Djehuti quote he said nothing about imposing racial traits
He was doing the opposite, pointing out "negroid" racial traits in proto-historical Punic remains rather than saying 'racial' characteristics should not be imposed

He says
"The results of heterogeneity aren't that surprising "

He did not say "look how they are calling these remains 'negroid', at it again imposing racial characteristics, wrong"

Djehuti might agree with your remark but your remark does not make sense in reply he said in that quote.
What he's doing here is saying, look, there were more negroids over here
Even though he is battling Antalas does not mean every time he quotes him he is disputing his info.

Also issues raised of the Garmantes site in Libya
are not instantly resolved by looking at Gobero in Niger.

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It depends on what you mean by "racial". I cited a passage speaking of differences in cranial morphology. Phenotype and "race" are two different things. The former is objective while the latter is subjective. LOL @ "battling Antalas". I'm not evend debating the guy let alone "battling" him simply because the guy is a clown who was defeated in this forum ages ago. I just like to mock him using his own posts.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ I read that study the when it came out. The results of heterogeneity aren't that surprising since other studies show the same. Antalas cited a study on proto-historical Punic remains here

On some skulls, there is a more or less accentuated platyrrhiny associated with a more or less marked prognathism. These are all traits that one might consider negroid. If one is only based on the association of these two traits, ten skulls could be considered as negroid. Some are typical, such as Gastel's skull 3.52 which has a sub-nasal groove, flattened nasal bones, accentuated facial and alveolar prognathism, an erased chin, as well as Djelfa's wife (2.11) whose face, although narrow and long, is strongly prognathic with a grooved infra-nasal rim, flattened nasal bones and, a cultural trait common in African Melanoderms, an image of an upper incisor. Others are less typically negroid, but can nevertheless be considered as such, they are the skulls of Beidj (2.10), Tiddis (5.02), Roknia (3.05 and 3.37), Gastel (3.54), Sigus (coll. Thomas 3.79) , Carthage (4.27 and 4.36).

The nose has an average width in absolute value, its height is quite high. The individual distribution of the index is however quite variable with a similar number of lepto- and mesorhinal individuals among protohistoric, Punic and Roman men. Women are more Mesorhinian. We also note the existence of a significant proportion of Platyrrhine individuals (25% of men and women) in protohistoric and Roman burials in Algeria. They are much rarer in Punic burials.



^ That monument bears a striking resemblance to the 'divine fingers' stelae in West Asia.

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Exactly, they have always tried to impose these 'racial' characteristics on ancient African remains from Mechtoid to Mediterranean, even on sites far to the South in Gobero, which has been discussed here numerous times before. And the funny part with this study is they don't even compare these skulls with those other Saharan sites.

https://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=15&t=000523&p=1

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:


Anyone can look up the numerous examples of Tuareg chiefs that the French and others have dealt with over the last 100 years. None of them look anywhere close to white.

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half white half black, in physical appearance
 

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Posted by Askia_The_Great (Member # 22000) on :
 
This section was doing good with intellectual academic debates these past few weeks. Enough with the low IQ meme spamming from BOTH sides. You wanna spam memes? Take it to the Deshret section. Final warning.

Anyone who resists can take a temporary vacation. Now back on topic.
 

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Posted by Shebitku (Member # 23742) on :
 
Bumping this thread as a certain degenerate, for some reason or another, is sporadically posting about Ancient Libyans in threads where they are of no relevance whatsoever, yet this same degenerate can't or wont address a single thing i've posted here in this thread. Interesting to say the least...

Anyway here's more sources relevant to the fact that the Ancient Libyans did not solely consist of races of people with pig like skin.

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It seems therefore that the ancient population of Libya was made up of different races. Thus we find one Roman author saying that 'some of the Libyans resemble Ethiopians, whilst others are of Cretan stock'.

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Herodotus describes Africa as home to four races of men: Phoenicians, Hellenes, Libyans, and Ethiopians. Only the latter two were natives. The cultures of the Libyans and Ethiopians were frequently compared. Libyans were primarily nomadic and occupied the deserts of the North Africa to the west of Egypt. 'Libyan,' unlike 'Ethiopian,' had no racial connotations; it was associated only with geography.'Ethiopian' became a descriptor for any individual with certain somatic features; thus it is conceivable that white foreigners might confuse true Ethiopians with any other African subgroups, such as the Libyans. For their lack of a central mythology, the Libyans were of far less interest to the ancients than were the Ethiopians.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:


Anyone can look up the numerous examples of Tuareg chiefs that the French and others have dealt with over the last 100 years. None of them look anywhere close to white.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

half white half black, in physical appearance

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quote:

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Originally posted by Shebitku:
A picture of Barack Obama, What's your point? [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

Getting back to the topic, the point Antalas raised about Garamantes probably not being Berber speakers is the same as that of Clyde Winters.Though I don't know why people are making such conclusions based on their phenotype as opposed to what language(s) they actually spoke which has yet to be resolved.

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I said that is as likely they were Nilo-Saharan speakers as Berber as there is no conclusive evidence of what language they actually spoke. I dont think Antalas did, at least not in this thread and most of the worlds ancient populations were Mande speakers according to Clyde Winters

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So the question is who were the Garamantes closely related to??

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A clear and significant genetic differentiation between the Berbers from Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers was also observed. The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa.

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Originally posted by Shebitku:

I said that is as likely they were Nilo-Saharan speakers as Berber as there is no conclusive evidence of what language they actually spoke. I don't think Antalas did, at least not in this thread and most of the world's ancient populations were Mande speakers according to Clyde Winters

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Do you mean ancient populations on modern? If modern the groups already mentioned above in this thread, and "black"- arab tribes like the Awlad Suleiman and Dawwada are also worth mentioning...

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