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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ I read that study the when it came out. The results of heterogeneity aren't that surprising since other studies show the same. Antalas cited a study on proto-historical Punic remains here

On some skulls, there is a more or less accentuated platyrrhiny associated with a more or less marked prognathism. These are all traits that one might consider negroid. If one is only based on the association of these two traits, ten skulls could be considered as negroid. Some are typical, such as Gastel's skull 3.52 which has a sub-nasal groove, flattened nasal bones, accentuated facial and alveolar prognathism, an erased chin, as well as Djelfa's wife (2.11) whose face, although narrow and long, is strongly prognathic with a grooved infra-nasal rim, flattened nasal bones and, a cultural trait common in African Melanoderms, an image of an upper incisor. Others are less typically negroid, but can nevertheless be considered as such, they are the skulls of Beidj (2.10), Tiddis (5.02), Roknia (3.05 and 3.37), Gastel (3.54), Sigus (coll. Thomas 3.79) , Carthage (4.27 and 4.36).

The nose has an average width in absolute value, its height is quite high. The individual distribution of the index is however quite variable with a similar number of lepto- and mesorhinal individuals among protohistoric, Punic and Roman men. Women are more Mesorhinian. We also note the existence of a significant proportion of Platyrrhine individuals (25% of men and women) in protohistoric and Roman burials in Algeria. They are much rarer in Punic burials.

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Moreover, the distance of the Garamantes to their neighbors was significantly high and the population appeared to be an outlier . This is attributed to the location of the Garamantes at the core of the desert, indicating that, despite the archaeological evidence, the Sahara Desert posed important limitations to gene flow between the Garamantes and other North African populations.

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The analysis of cranial nonmetric traits and 3D geometric morphometrics of the
cranial shape, supported that the Garamantes are phenotypically distant to other groups from Egypt, Algeria, Tunisia and Sudan, suggesting that the Sahara posed a barrier to extensive gene flow (Nikita et al., 2012a; 2012b). Similarly, the Garamantes were found to exhibit phenotypic continuity from the Late Pastoral to Roman times, but at the same time they engaged in some gene flow with other, likely sub-Saharan, groups (Ricci et al., 2013).

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ You contradict yourself as usual. You say "Garamantes were much more heterogeneous than NW Africans" yet ignore the fact that they were NW Africans as the source you cited stated:

Moreover, the distance of the Garamantes to their neighbors was significantly high and the population appeared to be an outlier...
...the Sahara Desert posed important limitations to gene flow between the Garamantes and other North African populations.


https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/civ5customization_gamepedia_en/images/5/59/AncientLibyaModMap.png/revision/latest?cb=20170501194836

So miss me with your "Sub-Saharan" crap.

As for ancient slave trade, is this your explanation as to why NW Africans have higher Sub-Saharan ancestry than Northeast Africans??


According to Roman sources it was the Garamantes who did the enslaving. Because of this fact most scholars presumed the Garamantes to be racially "Mediterranean".

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The pursuit of black slaves seems to be a constant in the history of the Saharan nomads. The Garamantes were certainly involved in the slave trade in antiquity. The famous passage in which Herodotus describes them as hunting the Ethiopian Troglodytes from four-horsed chariots” clearly suggests slaving. Even more suggestive is a scurrilous poem of the fourth century, addressing a black slave in Hadrumetum (Sousse) as the ‘dregs of the Garamantes’.3} It seems not unlikely that the Garamantes were one of the principal sources of black African slaves in the classical world, and that much of their wealth derived from the slave trade. Indeed, close contacts with Nubia are suggested by the contents of the tombs of the Garamantes, which contain large amounts of material from Upper Egypt and Nubia.” Much has been made of the gold routes across the desert in antiquity and the middle ages, but it seems likely that the most valuable cargo of the caravans was human.

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The Garamantians also served as middle-men in the slave trade. Already at the end of the first century, a Roman named Julius Maternus visited the king of the Garamantians, whom he accompanied on what seems to be a “hunting” raid against Ethiopians. The Garamantians consumed Roman commodities, which they had to pay for with something. Slaves seem to be one obvious candidate to explain the balance in trade between the Mediterranean and the Fazzan. The chalcidicum at Leptis Magna has been proposed as a plausible slave market, one end point of the trans-Saharan land route which slaves would have trudged in their coffles. The ostraca at Bu Djem, a Roman fort south of Leptis along one of the major arteries leading to the coast, indeed show the presence of Garamantian traders and black slaves along this axis of the trans-Saharan trade. Another branch of the trans-Saharan trade may have headed to the west, towards Carthage.

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A third-century inscription from coastal Hadrumentum preserved a vicious invective against the presence of black slaves, brought explicitly by the Garamantians :

The scum of the Garamantes comes into our world, and the dark slave is proud of
his black body. If not for the human voice issuing from his lips, this demon with
his awful face would horrify men. Hadrumentum, let the furies of hell take your
monster for themselves! The house of the underworld should have this one for its
guardsman.

This trade explains, for instance, the presence of black slaves at Carthage in the fifth century who were “Ethiopian by color, brought from the farthest reaches of the barbarian regions where the dried parts of the human are blackened by the fire of the sun

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According to this brief account (confirmed by ancient Saharan rock art), the Garamantes used four-horse chariots to hunt down fleet-footed ‘Ethiopian’ cave-dwellers.21 This is the earliest account of a dominant white race, socially organised and with a relatively advanced technology, exploiting the more primitive Saharan blacks, presumably to enslave them. The ‘Ethiopians’ Herodotus mentions were probably black but not negro Saharan aborigines, precursors of the modern Tebu.22 The Garamantes, likely ancestors of the Tuareg confederations of the western and central desert, had presumably been raiding and enslaving the desert blacks long before Herodotus wrote.23 Most, if not all, such slaves were probably kept by the Garamantes for their own uses and not normally herded up to the coast for export to Mediterranean markets. Here was a tradition of domination and enslavement of one African race by another that was only outlawed, if not wholly suppressed, by the political–social revolutions of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries.

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Twisted cord simple or roulette impressions are the typical Garamantian pottery decoration first dated at Zinkekra to 650 BC. While the Pastoral decorative techniques and patterns represent the local tradition, those obtained with a twisted cord are alien to the Central Sahara and to most part of North Africa. They instead are commonly found in West Africa (Mauritania) starting from the second millennium BC [...] a degree of gene flow (along a North-South African gradient, probably from sub-Saharan regions) seems to be expressed in some [skeletal] metric variables, which might be associated with the female subset of the population. Remarkably, the range of the Sr signatures at Fewet resulted slightly higher for the females than the males, further supporting this interpretation. ... this perfectly matches with what was previously suggested in regards to the Garamantian domestic architecture and pottery manufacture (the hypothesis of the Garamantian pottery being made by Sahelian women present in the local communities as a result of intermarriage) .

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

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Raiding and pillaging seem to have been one of their mainstays, and raiding coloured the whole pattern of their life…The Tibu seem to have harried and collected tribute from all travellers within their realms, and their activities were a sore trial to the early caravaners. Beyond that, they swept out of the deserts to raid the settled populations as far afield as Ouadai and the Chad area, Cyrenaica, the Egyptian oases, the Nile valley, and Kordofan… The general temperament of the Tibu relates clearly to this long history of raiding.

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Nominally Tibesti is under French rule, but the plateau is still a haunt of desert raiders of Tibbu stock, who for centuries have carried on raids and reprisals with the Tuareg of Air, their inveterate enemies, by whom no quarter is given.

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Periodically the Kura'án, a black race of heathen, sally forth from their country north of Wadái and Dárfür, and raid the Arabs to the south and south-east for booty.

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One of the most problematic aspects is the language and inscriptions attributed to the Garamantes. The people generally known as Garamantes in classical records were placed by Pliny a 12 days’ journey from the Awjila, in the interior of Libya. They occupied the most habitable region of the Sahara: the Wadis al-Ajal and ash-Shati and the oases from Murzuq to Zuwila. At a later date, lbn Khaldun stated that Germanah (Jarma) was first settled by the Lauta or Luwwatah tribe, who also inhabited the coastal regions of Tripolitania. Sites in the vicinity of Jarma, the Garamantian capital of what is now known as Fazzan, have abundant inscriptions. They are found cut or painted on dark grey amphorae, in the tombs of Garamantian cemeteries, such as those of Saniat bin Huwaydi. A recent project under the auspices of the British Library has digitised most of the known inscriptions and these are described in Biagetti et al. Although the inscriptions are in Berber characters, only some are decipherable. Various reasons for this have been suggested; either the messages were deliberately coded, so that only specific readers could understand them. Alternatively, they may have had a ‘ludic’ nature. The most exciting possibility is that they were in a non-Berber language, perhaps Nilo- Saharan.

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." - Roger Blench, Burials, Migration and Identity in the Ancient Sahara and Beyond, 2019

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The Garamantes, whose empire in the Libyan Fezzan was overthrown by the Romans, wrote in a Libyan script, although we have no evidence they spoke Berber. What they did speak is open to conjecture; the most likely hypothesis is a Nilo-Saharan language, related either to Songhay or to Teda-the present-day language of the Tibesti

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The Garamantes cluster most closely to Sub-Saharan Africans and secondarily to the Roman Egyptians from Alexandria and the Nubians from Soleb. Overall, these results are reasonable given that from the archaeological evidence it is known that the Garamantes were in close connection with Sub-Saharan Africa, and with people from Egypt and the Mediterranean coast of Africa.

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The Garamantes themselves were occasionally described as somewhat or even wholly black. They are somewhat black in Ptolemy, I.9.7, p. 25, and they are 'more likely Ethiopians' in Ptolemy, I.8.5, p. 31 A. Garamantian slave is described as having a body the colour of pitch'. An anthropological survey carried out in their burial grounds confirms the composite nature of their racial characteristics; it is pure prejudice and an improbable assertion to claim that the negroid skeletons are those of slaves, for it is an arbitrary conclusion to say that two groups of white skeletons out of four represent the proportion of Garamantes in antiquity.

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The Kanuri people of Bornu originated from the Toubou ‘Negroids’ of Kanem, and of the Eastern Sahara. These Toubou were perhaps the Garamantes of Roman geographers. Their range in ancient times extended from Fezzan to Lake Chad.

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The Garamantes were well known to the historians and geographers of the classical period, and seem to have been a nomad race extending from north of Fezzan (the ancient Phazania) as far south as Nubia, including that area now known as the Bayûda Desert. In the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries A.D., the Bayûda Desert was still known as the Desert of Goran, Gorham, or Gorhan; a name, as McMichael has shown, connected with Kura'án and with Garama and Garamantes. According to Leo Africanus, speaking of the negro kingdoms which he visited in 1513-15,"Nubia... is enclosed on the southern side with the desert of Goran... the king of Nubia maintaineth continuall warre... against the people of Goran. The Kura án of to-day, occupying much the same territory as did the Garamantes in ancient times, are a mixture of Tibbu and negro; a nomadic race occupying the deserts north of Dárfûr and Wadái.

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...In his Chronicle, under the year 569-70, he records the conversion to Christianity of the
Maccuritae-the Makкoupaι of Ptolemy, the Makoritae of John of Ephesus-who inhabited the country immediately to the south of the Nobatae. In the same year the Garamantes, the modern Kura'án, were also converted.

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The Teda preserved the legend about the Mother of God and her child and it was first written down after the Second World War. In Ennedi, traces of Christianity lead to Nubia.

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The relationship between Saharan and Nilotic burial traditions represents an interesting line of enquiry. There are striking structural similarities between certain Nile Valley burial monuments and those of the Garamantes. Some, like the construction of mud-brick pyramids and of rectangular, stepped tombs similar to the mastaba type appear to be distant echoes in relative isolation, rather than part of a more generalised cultural adoption of the burial form within the Sahara. However, stone-built tumuli in general, and the C-Group ones in particular, which are very similar to Garamantian tumuli, are evidence of a shared Saharan tradition that goes far back in time. The laying out of the corpse on its back in an extended posture is a characteristic of Egypt, the Western Desert oases and of some of the late historic Nubian graves, whereas as we shall see for much of the rest of the
Sahara, starting from Nubia, the body was placed in a contracted position. laid on one side, and covered by a leather shroud of some kind.

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Hassanein Bey noted the former existence of Guraan, both from Kufra, and from the south, at 'Uweinat, and elements of Tibu have even been detected in the Cyrenaican and Egyptian oases; probably the descendants of raiding groups.

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Both the Blemmyes (the Beja of the middle ages, and probably the Bisháriín etc. of the present) and the ancestors or precursors of the Berber and Tibbu tribes of the deserts roamed the country round El Haráza in past days. The former, for instance, in 200 A.D. were settled on both sides of the Nile, and were assisted in their raids on Egypt by the Nobatae (Nüba); and, as regards the latter there can be no doubt that the Bayuda desert and Northern Kordofán, which together roughly formed what used to be known as the desert of Gorham or Goran, was once the home of roaming tribes probably connected on the one hand with the ancient Garamantes and on the other with the Tibbu and Eastern Tuwarek, part descendants of the old nomad Berbers

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This picture is borne out by the legends collected by modern explorers. Born of the recollection of these raids, the settled cultivators of Egypt produced many wonderful stories of inhabited valleys and oases in the desert wastes, and even of walled towns. They recounted how the inhabitants of these desert strongholds, generally described as Blacks, quite frequently raided the outlying Egyptian oases, vanishing swiftly back into the desert to defy pursuit. From such material arose the legend of Zerzura… To locate this tantalizing
place formed one of the principal initial incentives to exploration; and although Zerzura itself has probably not been found (unless one accepts
Almàsy's claim to the title for his three wadis in the northern Gilf Kebir), exploration did find many hitherto unknown oases. The whole subject of
Zerzura has been ably discussed by Almàsy, and the legends of raids on the Egyptian oases are fully presented in his book. Although disappointed in
finding Zerzura itself, modern explorers did discover J. 'Uweinat, J. Archenu, Merga, Bir Bidi, and the Gilf Kebir; while Kufra and its neighbouring oases were more completely explored. At all these places traces of modern occupation were observed. Kufra and Tazerbo were occupied by Arabs, who had captured these oases in the nineteenth century from the indigenous Tibu, but many of the Tibu remained. A small party of Tibu were discovered at'Uweinat and Archenu by Hassanein Bey in 1920 and 1923, under a chief Herri; and although their occupation did not persist beyond 1933, it is clear from their statements that the Tibu had known the mountain oasis for centuries, and visited it regularly both to graze camels, and as a pied-à-terre for raids. At Merga, Newbold and Shaw in 1927 found recently built grass and reed
huts, although the oasis was deserted. They learned however that it was well known to the Bideyat and Guraan people of the south (groups related to the
Tibu), and visited by them regularly. Similar remains were found by Almásy at Bir Bidi nearby in 1935, who also found many traces of recent
Tibu occupation in the wadis of the northern Gilf Kebir which led him to claim their identity with Zerzura. Again, in conversations with Tibu, Almàsy
was told quite definitely that all these places were age-old Tibu strongholds, the Tibu having known and traversed the whole of the desert long before the appearance of the Arabs.

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Even without elaborate analysis it is clear that all the objects can be readily paralleled among both the Tibu of Tibesti, and the Guraan and Bideyat of the south, while they are quite alien to the Arabs; and the ethnological evidence thus confirms the historical material: first, that the Tibu peoples alone can be described as the true natives of the Libyan Desert; and secondly that until quite recent years they roamed over a much wider area than that in which they are now to be found. Kufra and Tazerbo were their strongholds for centuries before the Arabs managed to reach and conquer them. They certainly knew, visited, and periodically occupied 'Uweinat, Archenu, and the valleys of the Gilf Kebir; they alone knew and used Merga, Bir Bidi, and other small and remote oases; their water jars were found at Abu Ballas (by John Ball) on the road to Dakhla; indeed it can be said that their realm extended across the whole of the Libyan Desert as far as the Cyrenaican and Egyptian oases, the Arba'in road, and even at times the Nile Valley. All the historical evidence seems to identify them directly with the mysterious "desert blacks," who periodically raided Siwa, Dakhla, and the other Egyptian oases, and with the "desert Goran" written of by Leo Africanus in the sixteenth century, who terrorized the Nile valley peoples, and on whom the King of Nubia "waged continuall warre.

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- R.F. Peel, The Tibu Peoples and the Libyan Desert, 1942

I could keep going, but im pretty sure it'll be a waste of time since there will be some generic response of

"Well deyz wuz juz showing dey yt guilt and sheeit um um um dey juz being post colonial and progrezzive and sheeeit um um um de tubu'z iz slavez and sheeit but imma say dat indirectly becuz i cant prove it and sheeit"



[ 17. November 2023, 07:56 AM: Message edited by: Askia_The_Great ]

Posts: 200 | From: Nibiru | Registered: Mar 2023  |  IP: Logged | 

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It is undisputed that the Zaghawa are closely connected with the Tibbu (or Teda) family

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Originally posted by Shebitku:

Both the Blemmyes (the Beja of the middle ages, and probably the Bisháriín etc. of the present) and the ancestors or precursors of the Berber and Tibbu tribes of the deserts roamed the country round El Haráza in past days. The former, for instance, in 200 A.D. were settled on both sides of the Nile, and were assisted in their raids on Egypt by the Nobatae (Nüba); and, as regards the latter there can be no doubt that the Bayuda desert and Northern Kordofán, which together roughly formed what used to be known as the desert of Gorham or Goran, was once the home of roaming tribes probably connected on the one hand with the ancient Garamantes and on the other with the Tibbu and Eastern Tuwarek, part descendants of the old nomad Berbers

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- R.F. Peel, The Tibu Peoples and the Libyan Desert, 1942

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Posts: 200 | From: Nibiru | Registered: Mar 2023  |  IP: Logged | 

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The primary encounter with foreign and unknown nations is clearly and always made through sight. Even if one does not talk to, or trade with, or fight, or approach, other people, a visual impression is made. Accordingly, we find several proverbial expressions related to physical appearance. In Plautus’ Poenulus (‘the little Punic’) Antamonides, a soldier in love with one of two Carthaginian girls, exclaims:

Now that I’m angry I’d like my girlfriend to meet me: with my fists I’ll make sure that she’s black as a blackbird this instant, I’ll fill her with blackness to such an extent that she’s much blacker than the Egyptians (atrior … quam Aegyptini) who carry the bucket round the circus during the games.

(Plaut. Poen. 1288–91)Footnote5
Egyptians thus are presented as a standard for blackness, even if the image is based not on an actual visit to Egypt but on the appearance of Egyptians who were brought to Rome and performed or worked in the circus. Perhaps these implied circumstances emphasized even more the physical difference between locals (Roman city dwellers who attended the theatre) and foreigners (Egyptian slaves). But Egyptians were not the usual symbol of dark complexion. Based on what we have available in writing, other North Africans were more commonly used as proverbial illustrations of black or dark skin.

In the so-called Priapic erotic epigrams, a certain very repulsive girl is said to be ‘no whiter than a Moor’ (non candidior puella Mauro) (46.1). In another Priapic epigram the Moors represent elaborately curly hair when mocking a feminine male who ‘primp[s] his hair with curly irons so he’d seem a Moorish maiden’ (ferventi caput ustulare ferro, ut Maurae similis foret puellae) (45.2–3).Footnote6 The Latin MauriFootnote7 sometimes referred specifically to the inhabitants of the region defined in ancient geographies as Mauritania, or Maurousia in Greek, which is more or less parallel to parts of modern Morocco and Algeria.Footnote8 However, we often find the same terminology applied, especially in poetic works, to Africans in general.Footnote9 Accordingly, the proverbial association of Mauri with dark skin could be understood as pertaining to the inhabitants of north-western Africa or to the inhabitants of the continent as a whole. It seems that even if the crowds had no precise geographical idea of peoples and places, the popular notion of certain groups who have black skin must have been established and transmitted.

The Latin references to Egyptians and Mauri as people with a darker complexion combine to form the traditional and most well-known use of Aethiops as the symbol of black skin already in Greek proverbial applications. The very etymology of the Greek word Αἰθίοψ, denoting a ‘burnt face’ (αἴθω, ὄψ), as well as the Greek idiom ‘to wash an Aethiops white,’Footnote10 must have fixed this image in the minds of the crowds, even those who had never met any person from the relevant African regions. This is quite clear, for instance, in Juvenal’s contrast between ‘white’ and ‘Aethiops’ (derideat Aethiopem albus, Juv. 2.23)

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Now let's wait and see what excuses he has in store. The author is an "Afrocentrist" who is "black-washing" or perhaps the Romans were! LMAO

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Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan.

Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Its funny isnt it, he's not even consistant with his BS ideology which isn't even an ideology to begin with just anti-black debate bro chest bumping....all bark and no bite...

Claims Ethiopians are not black, but posts a source describing them as such by a Medieval Persian Shah to Chest bump debate bro post againt Taz, gets called out 'NaW SeE WhAt HaPpEnEd WuZ...Uhh DuH PeRsIaNs DiDnT HaVe DnA"

Pretends for years to defend modern Egyptians from Afrocentrist boogymen...Literally celebrates the Dynastic Race Theory....

NaW SeE WhAt HaPpEnEd WuZ...Uhh DuH I WuZ JuSt PrEtEnDiNg Uhhh...Yeh DaTz It...Tee Hee..



Glad the 3 Abstracts/Leaks thread exposed him to other members

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Originally posted by Shebitku:
"Stop projecting modern conventional labels unto the past"

2 seconds later

"Dey wuz enslaving de blackz"

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Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Isn't it funny how whenever the Garamantes and their relations with other Africans are discussed Antalas always comes with his troll off topic SSA slave stuff...

Here is another example..
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=010565;p=1

Its weird huh, with his whole white knight act how he is so triggered by a people like the Garamantes (who have nothing to do with Coastal Berbers and more than likely their descendants are the modern people of the Fezzan) having relations with West and Central Africans

Modern People of Garama
https://historum.com/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FSAplavn.jpg&hash=3ccf1b099a4b038de6cb9445c761fd98

But Dey Wuz Uhhh Slaves and Uhhh Aprocentristz uhh be uhhh uhhh Pan Aprakanizum to uhhh say and Cuz....Slave Trade.....

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Antalas:



The ancient slave trade also impacted them (Nikita et al. 2020) :

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The analysis of cranial nonmetric traits and 3D geometric morphometrics of the
cranial shape, supported that the Garamantes are phenotypically distant to other groups from Egypt, Algeria, Tunisia and Sudan, suggesting that the Sahara posed a barrier to extensive gene flow (Nikita et al., 2012a; 2012b). Similarly, the Garamantes were found to exhibit phenotypic continuity from the Late Pastoral to Roman times, but at the same time they engaged in some gene flow with other, likely sub-Saharan, groups (Ricci et al., 2013).

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E. Nikita, Biodistance studies in the eastern mediterranean and middle east : an overview and future prospects, 2020

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Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
BTW notice the slight of hand in his first post to DJuhuti

Notice how these source does'nt say a damn thing about Slavery being the exclusive way the cultures interacted.. but he slyly add it in there for them...

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Antalas:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
BTW notice the slight of hand in his first post to DJuhuti

Notice how these source does'nt say a damn thing about Slavery being the exclusive way the cultures interacted.. but he slyly add it in there for them...

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It's not my problem if you're not well-informed about ancient Garamantes. One post later I included additional quotes to provide context, but you chose to overlook them. Is there a reason for your consistent disregard ? It's rather perplexing, considering you seem to become quite agitated every time a north african mentions slavery involving black individuals. What's ironic is that this sentiment is coming from someone who doesn't have a significant "black" heritage and has a notable recent ancestry from NW Europe.

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Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Yes Keep pretending your existance here or in any online historical forum is anything but chest bumping debate bro non sense..

I don't give a damn about the slave trade, its just annoying as hell as your only contribution to the topic of Garamantes is slavery....like we get it....Move on.

I mean are you ever going to contribute anything of intellectual merit? ( like it would Be cool to see stuff on Classical N/A and its contribution to Xtianity/Western Civ...etc)

My bad maybe Im assuming you have in depth intelligent knowlege about the cultures you claim...I did assume you cared about defending modern Egyptians but the 3 Abtract thread exposed that huh....

Fool me once...

...

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Originally posted by Antalas:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
BTW notice the slight of hand in his first post to DJuhuti

Notice how these source does'nt say a damn thing about Slavery being the exclusive way the cultures interacted.. but he slyly add it in there for them...

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It's not my problem if you're not well-informed about ancient Garamantes. One post later I included additional quotes to provide context, but you chose to overlook them. Is there a reason for your consistent disregard ? It's rather perplexing, considering you seem to become quite agitated every time a north african mentions slavery involving black individuals. What's ironic is that this sentiment is coming from someone who doesn't have a significant "black" heritage and has a notable recent ancestry from NW Europe.

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Antalas:
Why do you continue to feign ignorance regarding Djehuti's underlying intentions in his post ? If you genuinely care about and respect my people, why haven't you responded to her racist comments directed at my community ? Like I said I brought slavery to contextualize their heterogeneity certainly not because of "chest bumping" which doesn't even make sense since I made it clear that they weren't even similar to us...

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I joined this platform to challenge Afrocentrism, not to engage in the sharing of "intellectual" content when it's apparent that most members here are not particularly interested.

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Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
(Edit:) Djs post was about Punic Burials(Not Garamantes) so I was wrong, but I still stand by the Off topic Slavey stuff

Djhutis post had nothing to do with you or your people but with the fact that the Garamantes had members in their society with stereotypical SSA features..(Edit: I was wrong here)which is inline with the information shared in the OP you only brought up slavery because that fact triggers you so...

Also as DJ said, the Garamantes WERE a NW African people. You mad bruh?

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:
Why do you continue to feign ignorance regarding Djehuti's underlying intentions in his post ? If you genuinely care about and respect my people, why haven't you responded to her racist comments directed at my community ? Like I said I brought slavery to contextualize their heterogeneity certainly not because of "chest bumping" which doesn't even make sense since I made it clear that they weren't even similar to us...

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quote:

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I joined this platform to challenge Afrocentrism, not to engage in the sharing of "intellectual" content when it's apparent that most members here are not particularly interested.

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Glad the cat is out of the bag on your intellectual dishonesty...

The thread and the one I posted actually proves members are infact interested in intellectual discussion...you're just a self admitted troll.

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

You literally quoted my edited post so you already know I was wrong about DJ's OP...

Move on...

Also, restricting NW African idenity to the coast is just more lazy intellectual dishonety, does'nt change the fact that the Garamantes were NW Africans, they were also different from Egyptian, who are also not a Coastal NW African people, so are Egyptians now not a North African people because they're not restricted to the Coastal fringe of the Mehgreb,,,

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
(Edit:) Djs post was about Punic Burials(Not Garamantes) so I was wrong, but I still stand by the Off topic Slavey stuff

Djhutis post had nothing to do with you or your people but with the fact that the Garamantes had members in their society with stereotypical SSA features..(Edit: I was wrong here)which is inline with the information shared in the OP you only brought up slavery because that fact triggers you so...

Also as DJ said, the Garamantes WERE a NW African people. You mad bruh?

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:
Why do you continue to feign ignorance regarding Djehuti's underlying intentions in his post ? If you genuinely care about and respect my people, why haven't you responded to her racist comments directed at my community ? Like I said I brought slavery to contextualize their heterogeneity certainly not because of "chest bumping" which doesn't even make sense since I made it clear that they weren't even similar to us...

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quote:

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I joined this platform to challenge Afrocentrism, not to engage in the sharing of "intellectual" content when it's apparent that most members here are not particularly interested.

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Glad the cat is out of the bag on your intellectual dishonesty...

The thread and the one I posted actually proves members are infact interested in intellectual discussion...you're just a self admitted troll.

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His post literally has nothing to do with Garamantes but with my ancestors ...can't you read ? Why would I be triggered by the presence of SSA features in their society while it's literally me who shared quotes related to it ? Wtf hahaha

Again by NW african people I meant mediterranean NW Africans and you know it. So I asked him what does the skulls of such people have to do with a central saharan community which got described as very distinct from the former.

So now challenging racist ideologies is trolling ? Seems like in your mind their stance is totally legitimate and blacks can't be racist.

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Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:
Why would I be triggered by the presence of SSA features in their society

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Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] You literally quoted my edited post so you already know I was wrong about DJ's OP...

Move on...

Also, restricting NW African idenity to the coast is just more lazy intellectual dishonety, does'nt change the fact that the Garamantes were NW Africans, they were also different from Egyptian, who are also not a Coastal NW African people, so are Egyptians now not a North African people because they're not restricted to the Coastal fringe of the Mehgreb,,,

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
It was'nt just THEIR society as the Punic Burial stuff you posted shows it was also YOUR Ancestors society as well...

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:
Why would I be triggered by the presence of SSA features in their society

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

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Originally posted by Antalas:

We have one individual who fantasizes about the Tubus enslaving "white" North Africans

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There is certainly no "fantasy"but common knowledge... The Tubu people have been raiding "white"(berberid)North African) North Africans for millenia, as mentioned in the data i posted above, and there were undeniably hundreds of "white" slaves in the Kanem-Borno empire (females especially)

white meaning albanian-turk looking like yourself

Infact there's a saying amongst the Tubu elders and nobles that goes something to the effect of

One Tubu man is the equivalent to two million arab (berberid)North African) men

If you take one Tubu man and place him in the battlefield in the homeland of the arabs and come back with the next thrity minutes, the two million arab men will have disappeared into the dirt

but if you take two million arab men and place them in the battlefield in the homeland of Tubu and return within the next two minutes, the two million arab men will have disapeared into the dirt

In both instances the Tubu man will still be there



Some things just dont ever change i guess...



I could post far more explicit images related to the enslavement of white (berberid)North african)Targid types in paticular) slaves (females concubines speciffically) in the region but it would likely result in me being banned as they're rated R

And no matter how much crying you do will change these facts

quote:

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Why are you triggered everytime I bring up slavery ?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey:



Haratines are clearly distinguished from black Africans and mestizos despite their proximity. In a detailed study on the population of Idélès (500 inhabitants in 1970) and in which we participated with Dr. Ph. Lefèvre-Witier, the latter remarks that: “Contrary to what a superficial observation of the village would suggest and despite the relatively large gene flows, the probability of which we have studied, the fusion of genetic heritages still seems not very marked in Idélès. Quite distinct entities remain: Harratines, Tuaregs, Isseqqamarenes, former Iklans /slaves/, and this appears quite clearly in the different methods of analysis used” (Ph. Lefèvre-Witier, 1996 , p. 235).

20With the spectacular evolution of genetic analysis methods in recent years (particularly concerning DNA), it is now possible to assess more and more precisely the specific and original characteristics of these populations for too long considered as a by-product of slavery whereas they are one of the oldest components of the Saharan population.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:

Yatunde You're off topic nobody denied a "black" presence in the Sahara. Also Most black north africans aren't haratin and the latter were often less valued than slaves :.

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*Continues to post quotes about how the Haratin's were discriminated against

I could go back and find more of these types of posts constantly demeaning "black" North Africans existence, but im sure you get my point

Also notice how Antalas was the first and only person to mention skin colour in any form? Implying that the Tubu related groups(Nilo-Saharans)are racially "blacks". Meanwhile in reality the Tubu's, Haratin's etc ("black" North Africans) are far more akin to a horn African, who he will chimp out about if you say that they're black, in their genetic makeup than they're to "True Nigger" west africans

Why does he say that they're "black" you may ask? Solely because they speak Nilo-Saharan languages....

I mean you can't make this shit up



But anyway since he doesn't want to address a single thing i've posted I think im done here

Posts: 200 | From: Nibiru | Registered: Mar 2023  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Shebitku:
[QB]
Also notice how Antalas was the first and only person to mention skin colour in any form? Implying that the Tubu related groups(Nilo-Saharans)are racially "blacks". Meanwhile in reality the Tubu's, Haratin's etc ("black" North Africans) are far more akin to a horn African, who he will chimp out about if you say that they're black, in their genetic makeup than they're to "True Nigger" west africans

Why does he say that they're "black" you may ask? Solely because they speak Nilo-Saharan languages....

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Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
What does feeling of familiarity have to do with the fact of intellectual lazyiness that is restricting the identity of North Africa to one people of the Coastal fringe of the Mehgreb?

How does that change the fact that various people who would logically be called North Africans not only had members in their society that were magical barrier SSAs but were in so intances like Nubians etc resembled SSAs?

But yeah I forgot the only relationship the Garamantes had with SSA is slavery...

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:
Is this a joke ? The intellectually lazy approach would involve categorizing all these diverse groups without considering their unique histories, cultures, genetics, and more, simply because they reside within the same conventional borders.

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quote:

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Moreover, there isn't a singular "North African identity." Instead, you have various identities like Arab, Berber, Egyptian, Maghrebi, and more, but there is no overarching "North African identity."

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quote:

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Your reference to the coastal "fringe" is essentially where the majority of North Africans reside, excluding Egypt, of course. Ancient/medieval NAs as far as I know never considered blacks in their society as their kin and I don't think I have to remind you what happened when those berbers expanded south (equidian/camelid phases) so I'm not sure what you're even talking about. [/qb]

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Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
What does this have to do with the fact that Garamantes were a North African people? You're the one trying to pretend N/A Identiry is strictly Mehgrebi with your "Again by NW african people I meant mediterranean NW Africans and you know it" comment...

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quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Weird how North Africans deserve to have their various cultural identites respected but you restrict various African with your SSA BS label, to the point where various people who are SSA are not "black" because they dont fit your true negro ideology

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quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: What kind of comment is this...lol, this is how I know your full of S#it

Also it was'nt one sided,it took hundreds of years or pillaging to fully expand, aslo were'nt Berbers tribute paying subjects in Walata for example, I doubt this was the outlier.. [/QB]

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:
[QB]Again ffs what are you talking about ? In fact, I was the sole individual on this platform who stood up against members who perceived "blacks" as a homogenous group and became sensitive when I emphasized distinctions among various groups from the Horn of Africa and other ethnicities in sub-Saharan Africa.

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Show me one post you have made here where you support or stress the idea that what you label as "black" has divesity and includes various peoples like HOA etc...

Go ahead post it...

Tell the Truth and Shame the Devil...

quote:

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There's no notion of a "true negro fallacy"; you simply lack a deep understanding of African phenotypes, and this is evident as you appear to superimpose your American experiences onto africans.

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Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Antalas:Well you implied that North Africa was some kind of ancient utopia with blacks living peacefully among berbers while this couldn't be farther from the truth.

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quote:

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Also I thought you weren't into "Chest bumping" what happened ?

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Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:
North Africans, both in contemporary times and historically, do not exhibit physical or genetic similarities to the ethnicities found in sub-Saharan Africa.

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Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Show me one post you have made here where you support or stress the idea that what you label as "black" has divesity and includes various peoples like HOA etc...

Go ahead post it...

Tell the Truth and Shame the Devil...

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Sure no problem here with a quick search :

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Oh there isn't Ok, describe your defiition of Black and SSA...?

What is it?

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:Well you implied that North Africa was some kind of ancient utopia with blacks living peacefully among berbers while this couldn't be farther from the truth.

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There's no point in asking you to actually show where I made such a claim, we already know how dishonest you are, the only one making a claim of any sort of peaceful coexistance in NA between various people was the OP, who is an actual intellectual and not a biodiversity google scholar debate bro..

How is me saying this historical fact that Berbers were subject people in Walata Chest Bumping, esp. in regards to your nonsensical fantasy about your ancestral pillaging, raping and enslaving of Africans to the south as some one sided LOTR GOT style epic...Your people got their asses kicked, it was just persistant raiding and pillaging over hundreds of years that won out in the end.

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

I asked you to post one comment where you stress the diversity of the people you call "Black" and SSA and you with a straight face post where you stress the diveristy of Africans in context of NA/SSA

You're not even trying anymore, which is weird because deep down you have to know you're lying.

You have literally posted here countless times what your def. of black and SSA is...now you're up here wasting both of our time pretending what you mean by Black/SSA is what it is...lol



Born in Sin, Come on in...

quote:

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I'm genuinely perplexed by your strong reaction when I remark on their physical characteristics. [/QB]

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quote:

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There's no notion of a "true negro fallacy"; you simply lack a deep understanding of African phenotypes, and this is evident as you appear to superimpose your American experiences onto africans.

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Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
I asked you to post one comment where you stress the diversity of the people you call "Black" and SSA and you with a straight face post where you stress the diveristy of Africans in context of NA/SSA

You're not even trying anymore, which is weird because deep down you have to know you're lying.

You have literally posted here countless times what your def. of black and SSA is...now you're up here wasting both of our time pretending what you mean by Black/SSA is what it is...lol


Born in Sin, Come on in...

quote:

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I'm genuinely perplexed by your strong reaction when I remark on their physical characteristics.

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Also by Antalas

quote:

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There's no notion of a "true negro fallacy"; you simply lack a deep understanding of African phenotypes, and this is evident as you appear to superimpose your American experiences onto africans.

---

[/QB]

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:
[QB] Lioness an intellectual...XD She can't even make the difference between autosomal results and Uniparentals just stop XD

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So Lioness is the one who studied and wrote the information from the book in the OP

quote:

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Ah so now it's simply stating historical facts ? Strangely historical facts related to slavery weren't considered as such by yourself a few minutes ago so what happened ? Furthermore, my reference was to periods far earlier than the medieval era which by then had its fair share of black berbers ...seems like you already forgot about them.

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Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:
[QB]
"Africa is not only genetically diverse but also culturally diverse"
"stop having this monolithic vision of Africa"
"It has the highest level of genetic diversity"
"Are you treating "Blacks" as a monolith ?"
"No one here has claimed that SSA are a genetic monolith"

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quote:

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because you got upset by the fact that SSAs aren't physically as diverse as the european admixed afro-americans.

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Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
So Lioness is the one who studied and wrote the information from the book in the OP

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quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Just more strawman arguments and projection...

Claims I don't consider slavery a historical fact
-Will he provide evidence of this? Who Knows?

Keeps bringing up invasions because he's upset that his faux LOTR style one sided pillaging and raiding is contradcted by the fact that Bebers were subjected at various times...

Now the Medieval people had ...."its fair share of black berbers " two seconds from now.... BuT DeRe WeReNt NeVeR AnY BlAcK BuRbErZ

-Antalas'world.com [/QB]

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] This is how inept this dude is, in the very same comment he contradicts his own ideology....

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:
[QB]
"Africa is not only genetically diverse but also culturally diverse"
"stop having this monolithic vision of Africa"
"It has the highest level of genetic diversity"
"Are you treating "Blacks" as a monolith ?"
"No one here has claimed that SSA are a genetic monolith"

---

in one Breath...

Then in the next

quote:

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because you got upset by the fact that SSAs aren't physically as diverse as the european admixed afro-americans.

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Are SSAs Diverse or are they no Diverse..??

Find out at antalas'world.com

Also notice how he's desperatly trying NOT to define his definition of black....Weird, Hmm I wonder why?

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Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[qb]

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:Well you implied that North Africa was some kind of ancient utopia with blacks living peacefully among berbers while this couldn't be farther from the truth.

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There's no point in asking you to actually show where I made such a claim, we already know how dishonest you are, the only one making a claim of any sort of peaceful coexistance in NA between various people was the OP, who is an actual intellectual and not a biodiversity google scholar debate bro..

How is me saying this historical fact that Berbers were subject people in Walata Chest Bumping, esp. in regards to your nonsensical fantasy about your ancestral pillaging, raping and enslaving of Africans to the south as some one sided LOTR GOT style epic...Your people got their asses kicked, it was just persistant raiding and pillaging over hundreds of years that won out in the end.

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Lioness an intellectual...XD She can't even make the difference between autosomal results and Uniparentals just stop XD

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QB]

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:
North Africans, both in contemporary times and historically, do not exhibit physical or genetic similarities to the ethnicities found in sub-Saharan Africa.

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Are these similar?

E1b1a

E1b1b

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Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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After leaving Yusuf Ibn Tashfin in the north and returning south, Abu Bakr Ibn Umar reportedly made Azuggi his base. The town acted as the capital of the southern Almoravids under him and his successors. Despite the importance of the Saharan trade routes to the Almoravids, the history of the southern wing of the empire is not well documented in Arabic historical sources and is often neglected in histories of the Maghreb and al-Andalus. This has also encouraged a division in modern studies about the Almoravids, with archeology playing a greater role in the study of the southern wing, in the absence of more textual sources. The exact nature and impact of the Almoravid presence in the Sahel is a strongly debated topic among Africanists.

According to Arab tradition, the Almoravids under Abu Bakr's leadership conquered the Ghana Empire, founded by the Soninke, sometime around 1076–77. An example of this tradition is the record of historian Ibn Khaldun, who cited Shaykh Uthman, the faqih of Ghana, writing in 1394. According to this source, the Almoravids weakened Ghana and collected tribute from the Sudan, to the extent that the authority of the rulers of Ghana dwindled away, and they were subjugated and absorbed by the Sosso, a neighboring people of the Sudan.Traditions in Mali related that the Sosso attacked and took over Mali as well, and the ruler of the Sosso, Sumaouro Kanté, took over the land.

However, criticism from Conrad and Fisher (1982) argued that the notion of any Almoravid military conquest at its core is merely perpetuated folklore, derived from a misinterpretation or naive reliance on Arabic sources. According to Professor Timothy Insoll, the archaeology of ancient Ghana simply does not show the signs of rapid change and destruction that would be associated with any Almoravid-era military conquests.

Dierke Lange agreed with the original military incursion theory but argues that this doesn't preclude Almoravid political agitation, claiming that the main factor of the demise of the Ghana Empire owed much to the latter. According to Lange, Almoravid religious influence was gradual, rather than the result of military action; there the Almoravids gained power by marrying among the nation's nobility. Lange attributes the decline of ancient Ghana to numerous unrelated factors, one of which is likely attributable to internal dynastic struggles instigated by Almoravid influence and Islamic pressures, but devoid of military conquest.

This interpretation of events has been disputed by later scholars like Sheryl L. Burkhalter, who argued that, whatever the nature of the "conquest" in the south of the Sahara, the influence and success of the Almoravid movement in securing west African gold and circulating it widely necessitated a high degree of political control.

The traditional position says that the ensuing war with the Almoravids pushed Ghana over the edge, ending the kingdom's position as a commercial and military power by 1100. It collapsed into tribal groups and chieftaincies, some of which later assimilated into the Almoravids while others founded the Mali Empire.


The Arab geographer Ibn Shihab al-Zuhri wrote that the Almoravids ended Ibadi Islam in Tadmekka in 1084 and that Abu Bakr "arrived at the mountain of gold" in the deep south. Abu Bakr finally died in Tagant in November 1087 following an injury in battle—according to oral tradition, from an arrow[ – while fighting in the historic region of the Sudan.

After the death of Abu Bakr (1087), the confederation of Berber tribes in the Sahara was divided between the descendants of Abu Bakr and his brother Yahya, and would have lost control of Ghana. Sheryl Burkhalter suggests that Abu Bakr's son Yahya was the leader of the Almoravid expedition that conquered Ghana in 1076, and that the Almoravids would have survived the loss of Ghana and the defeat in the Maghreb by the Almohads, and would have ruled the Sahara until the end of the 12th century.

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quote:

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A 15th century depiction of the 11th century Almoravid general Abu Bakr ibn Umar ("Rex Bubecar") near the Senegal River in 1413 Majorcan chart. Abu Bakr was known for his conquests in Africa.

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Given the scattered nature of the Arabic sources and the ambiguity of the existing archaeological record, it is difficult to determine when and how Ghana declined and fell. The earliest descriptions of the empire are vague as to its maximum extent, though according to al-Bakri, Ghana had forced Awdaghost in the desert to accept its rule sometime between 970 and 1054. By al-Bakri's own time, however, it was surrounded by powerful kingdoms, such as Sila.


A tradition in historiography maintains that Ghana fell when it was sacked by the Almoravid invasion in 1076–77, although Ghanaians resisted attacks for a decade, but this interpretation has been questioned. Conrad and Fisher (1982) argued that the notion of any Almoravid military conquest at its core is merely perpetuated folklore, derived from a misinterpretation or naive reliance on Arabic sources.Dierke Lange agrees but argues that this does not preclude Almoravid political agitation, claiming that Ghana's demise owed much to the latter. Sheryl L. Burkhalter (1992) was skeptical of Conrad and Fisher's arguments and suggested that there were reasons to believe that there was conflict between the Almoravids and the empire of Ghana. Furthermore, the archaeology of ancient Ghana does not show the signs of rapid change and destruction that would be associated with any Almoravid-era military conquests.

While there is no clear-cut account of a sack of Ghana in the contemporary sources, the country certainly did convert to Islam, for al-Idrisi, whose account was written in 1154, has the country fully Muslim by that date. Al-Idrisi's report does not give any reason to believe that the Empire was smaller or weaker than it had been in the days of al-Bakri, 75 years earlier. In fact, he describes its capital as "the greatest of all towns of the Sudan with respect to area, the most populous, and with the most extensive trade."

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Posts: 2560 | From: Somewhere | Registered: May 2012  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:
Pay attention I suggested that : SSAs are culturally and genetically diverse.
However they're physically much less diverse than afro-americans.

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Posts: 2560 | From: Somewhere | Registered: May 2012  |  IP: Logged |