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Originally posted by Firewall:


A 15th century depiction of the 11th century Almoravid general Abu Bakr ibn Umar ("Rex Bubecar") near the Senegal River in 1413 Majorcan chart. Abu Bakr was known for his conquests in Africa.

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It's not clear if the camel rider in Cresques' 1375 map is supposed to be a particular person.
There is nothing that suggests he's a leader.
He could be a tribal chief anyway.
In the later map of 1413 the camel rider is marked Rex Bubeder which some think is a version of "Boubacar" which is a version of Abu Bakr (which means "Father of a Young Camel")
But while Abraham Cresques lived 1325-1387 which was at the same time of Mansa Musa lived who ruled the Mali Kingdom until 1337 it is far later than the Amir of the Almoravids, Abu Bakr who died in 1087 (288 years earlier than the 1375 map or more with the 1413 map). It might still be Abu Bakr but
when these maps were made it would be far in time from anybody who was alive to have seen him.
there is a lot of color deterioration on the map.

enlargeable version:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mssusanb/50030912152/in/photolist-2je4v8E-2gbDCes

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Originally posted by Doug M:
Bottom line, these scholars keep promoting this idea that there is some 'mystery' about the Garamantes when there isn't.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ I read that study the when it came out. The results of heterogeneity aren't that surprising since other studies show the same. Antalas cited a study on proto-historical Punic remains here

On some skulls, there is a more or less accentuated platyrrhiny associated with a more or less marked prognathism. These are all traits that one might consider negroid. If one is only based on the association of these two traits, ten skulls could be considered as negroid. Some are typical, such as Gastel's skull 3.52 which has a sub-nasal groove, flattened nasal bones, accentuated facial and alveolar prognathism, an erased chin, as well as Djelfa's wife (2.11) whose face, although narrow and long, is strongly prognathic with a grooved infra-nasal rim, flattened nasal bones and, a cultural trait common in African Melanoderms, an image of an upper incisor. Others are less typically negroid, but can nevertheless be considered as such, they are the skulls of Beidj (2.10), Tiddis (5.02), Roknia (3.05 and 3.37), Gastel (3.54), Sigus (coll. Thomas 3.79) , Carthage (4.27 and 4.36).

The nose has an average width in absolute value, its height is quite high. The individual distribution of the index is however quite variable with a similar number of lepto- and mesorhinal individuals among protohistoric, Punic and Roman men. Women are more Mesorhinian. We also note the existence of a significant proportion of Platyrrhine individuals (25% of men and women) in protohistoric and Roman burials in Algeria. They are much rarer in Punic burials.



^ That monument bears a striking resemblance to the 'divine fingers' stelae in West Asia.

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Originally posted by Doug M:
Exactly, they have always tried to impose these 'racial' characteristics on ancient African remains from Mechtoid to Mediterranean, even on sites far to the South in Gobero, which has been discussed here numerous times before. And the funny part with this study is they don't even compare these skulls with those other Saharan sites.

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Of the main interest during this period is the evidence of some 'gender'-specific variations. For the late 3rd millennium bp, especially in the cemetery of Tahala, we have genetic indication of a marked sub-Saharan flow in the females, when compared to the males: this may be cautiously related to an increasing exogamy of these pastoral groups. Moreover, the 'black', sub-Saharan pool may be hypothetically considered as a first attestation of the practice to get women from southernmost territories. This practice lasted for millennia: according to the historians, Garamantes sacked women from the south, and this habit has been rather spread until the last centuries, especially within the Tuareg and Tebu populations (e.g., Fantoli 1933). Combining this evidence with archaeological data, the marked articulation of the ritual practices well matches with the diffusion of these structures in a 'mixed' and increasingly stratified society.

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The excavation of 32 Proto-Urban burials (c.500-1 BC) has shed light on the nature of burial rite and grave inclusions prior to the mass influx of imported Mediterranean goods in the first century AD. Ceramics were uncommonly used in funerary contexts at this time (9 of 32 burials) - and many of the finds of early ceramics in the cemetery zones seem to relate to their use as offering vessels outside of tombs. The main classes of goods that can be identified as intentional grave offerings in the early periods were beads and amulets (22 of 32 burials), with a persistent presence of organic materials, such as foodstuffs, textile shrouds or garments, leather shrouds, headrests and matting. A number of unusual inorganic finds can also be highlighted as in the case of the young woman buried with a haematite lip-plug or another woman with a lump of red ochre bound to her hand. In the Classic Garamantian period (c.AD 1-400, 107 burials), there was an extraordinary rise in the numbers and range of material placed in Garamantian burials of all types, most obviously pottery (both imports and handmade vessels) and glass vessels (97 of 107 burials).

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The combination of morphometric and isotopic work further reinforces the view that Garamantian society included individuals of diverse geographical origin, some of whom may have been first generation Trans-Saharan migrants. These findings are reinforced by the discovery of the interment of a young woman of Sub-Saharan physiognomy wearing a distinctive lip plug of Sahelian type excavated during the Desert Migrations Project, dating to the later first millennium BC. This ornament demonstrates that some Garamantian individuals shared aspects of their material culture with Sahelian societies more broadly, either through migration or contact, while their burial within Garamantian cemeteries shows their integration into the normative funerary rituals of contemporary Garamantian society as suggested by the results of the isotopic and craniometrics analyses. In combination, these results support the hypothesis of a vivid trading community that maintained a resident population through centuries, and one which was enriched by multiple-sourced Trans-Saharan migrations, as offered throughout this volume.

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Usually the potter in a household production is a female member of the family, a fact confirmed by numerous ethnographic parallels in the Sahel area as well (e.g. Gallay et al. 1996). If Garamantian pottery was made by a female family member in every village of Fezzan, always following the same tradition from the beginning (roulette decoration, globular jars and grog inclusions), we may wonder if this happened because the potter was always a woman of Sahelian origins, using techniques learned from her mother and part of her own group identity. Since this tradition was not present in Fezzan prior to the Final Pastoral and is clearly associated with Garamantian culture, we must assume that the potter did not belong to earlier (Pastoral) local groups. The anthropological evidence showing a southern connection for some female bodies of the Final Pastoral, as well as historical sources describing Garamantes abducting women from the south (di Lernia and Manzi eds. 2002; cf. Chapter 37) seems to confirm this hypothesis. In my opinion, we are not dealing with "black women slaves" but with women who were part of the family (intermarriage). As mentioned above, the Final Pastoral is a period of a "multi-faceted" culture with influences from all over North Africa. With this in mind, it is illogical that the pottery shows no variation, particularly if the ceramic production was connected with the elite or with special functions within the society. Moreover, within the family there were certainly women of different provenance and
again it is unclear why none of them was manufacturing pottery in their own tradition. The only explanation I can suggest at the moment is that making pottery was a "secondary" activity in Garamantian society and was the prerogative of women of a specific provenance. A sort of "caste", like the forgeron in Tuareg society, is a possible hypothesis. It is interesting to note that in
the modern societies of the Inland Niger Delta potters are always wives and daughters of craftsmen, who thus belong to a specific caste (Gallay et al. 1996). The peculiarity of this situation seems not to be connected with the highest class (elite) but with the lowest rank of Garamantian society.

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Discovery of artefacts and practices correlating to particular Sub-Saharan cultural systems might provide further insights into contacts between these regions, but the specificity of such practices must be kept in mind. Pot burials were distinctive of southern Lake Chad Basin sites, for example, but there is no reason to think that such burials would be permitted among enslaved people in Fazzan. The fascinating discovery of a female burial with a lip-plug in a Garamantian cemetery certainly hints at Sub-Saharan affinities, but provides little further information than that, given the wide distribution of this artefact type. Other artefact types and production techniques (for example, hand-made pottery or roulette decoration) may also indicate Sub-Saharan origins, but again provide rather little specific information on where those origins might be. A significant sample of distinctive decorative motifs might show the movement of pots themselves, while analyses of forming practices in the ‘chaîne opératoire’ of ceramic production could indicate the presence of Sub-Saharan potters on Garamantian sites – but to this point samples do not exist for these investigations. It is likely that, in the medium term at least, archaeometric analyses of specific artefact types found on either Saharan or Sub-Saharan sites will continue to provide the most useful information on material flows, whether these involve ceramics, stone or glass beads or other materials that can often be sourced with some precision.

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I have been unable to find samples of Tibu pottery in British museums for comparison, but as the nomadic Arabs do not make pottery, there can be little doubt that these pots are of Tibu origin.
Rough pottery is made by both the Tibu of Tibesti, and the Guraan and Bideyat of Ouadaï and Ennedi. Some half a dozen baskets of various types were found, in both plaited and coiled techniques. Most of the latter were shallow, round, basin-like vessels; the former limp bags very similar to the maktaf of the Egyptian fellahin.

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The presence of both pearl millet and sorghum suggest first millennium BC diffusion of arable traditions from the Sahel, while cotton must have spread westwards from Nubia and the Egyptian oases by the later Classical Garamantian period.

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The similarities under discussion are lately also the consequence of stable, long-distance contacts between the various north African regions as part of the trans-Saharan caravan trade circuit. In this context, it is interesting to note that all the aforementioned regions connect the central Sahara with the Inland Niger Delta on one side, and with the Sudanese Nile Valley on the other, both the southern ends of the trans-Saharan trade circuit. However, it must be remembered that the Garamantian pottery tradition originates in around the beginning of the first millennium BC, during the Final Pastoral phase, while the trans-Saharan circuit, according to ancient sources and as noted by Liverani (cf. Chapter 36), developed some centuries later with the foundation of Phoenician, Greek and Roman colonies along the north African coast. Consequently, we should probably seek a different cause for the rise of the Garamantian pottery (and cultural) tradition, more related to the cultural dynamics of the Final Pastoral than to the caravan circuit.

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Those taking Herodotus' account verbatim might be disappointed that he remained silent on living merchandises potentially added to that gold
(such as humans, i.e. slaves), but other parts of his text are conveniently interpreted with a view to slave raiding and trading: the Garamantes hunting the swift-footed Aithiopian Troglodytes on four-horse chariots. Whilst the chariots are identified in the form of Saharan rock art, the Troglodytes remain mysterious. Although the ancient Greek text does neither state whether these hunts were slave raids or not, nor where they actually took place, the frequent re-interpretation of this text passage was jointly responsible for the creation of the myth of Saharan slave raids against Black Africans in classical times.

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Most authors support the theory that Muzzolini’s “groupe d’Iheren-Tahilahi” pictographs and similar paintings show “proto-Berbers”. “Horse Period” images, and to a certain extent also “Camel Period” pictures, are usually interpreted in connection with North African groups as well. Especially “flying gallop chariots”, like the ones at Tamajert (Tassili) and Ti-n-Anneuin (Acacus), have been repeatedly linked to the Garamantes. Crude “Horse” and “Camel Period” petroglyphs which are vaguely reminiscent of Ancient Egyptian pictures of plumed “Libyans” have become known as “Libyan Warriors”. More or less limited to the Adrar des Ifoghas (Mali), the Aïr and the Northern Tibesti, they typically depict men armed with spears whose heads are adorned with large feathers. As far as the “Pastoral Period” and the later phases are concerned, it appears that, generally speaking, biologically sub-Saharan populations were gradually replaced by biologically “mixed” and biologically North African groups in the Sahara’s more northerly regions. It should, however, be borne in mind that this change was probably not a uniform process.

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Originally posted by Lioness:

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A visual comparison of the face of ZIN013.T171 and GSC030.T4 (SM-K1) clearly illustrates the differences identified here (Fig. 4.6). If GSC030 is correctly identified as a Late Garamantian royal cemetery, the presence of individuals with features that are typically Sub-Saharan alongside individuals with features more typical of the overall al-Ajal sample is an interesting reflection on the possibilities of Garamantian social structures.

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various passages written by, for example, Herodotos, Strabon and Ptolemaeus indicate that the Garamantes of the Fezzan used chariots to raid the “Ethiopians” of the African interior. These sources also imply that the Garamantes were, in regard to their own status as “Ethiopians”, either not a homogeneous group or a population whose ancestry was “mixed”.

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Ethiopians are so called after a son of Ham named Cush, from whom they have their origin. In Hebrew, Cush means "Ethiopian." 128. This nation, which formerly emigrated from the region of the river Indus, settled next to Egypt between the Nile and the Ocean, in the south very close to the sun. There are three tribes of Ethiopians: Hesperians, Garamantes, and Indians. Hesperians are of the West, Garamantes of Tripolis, and the Indians of the East. 129. The Trochodites (i.e. Troglodytes) are a tribe of Ethiopians so called because they run with such speed that they chase down wild animals on foot (cf. тpoxázev, "run quickly"; TρéXEIV, "run"). 130. The Pamphagians are also in Ethiopia. Their food is whatever can be chewed, and anything living that they come upon-whence they are named (cf. wav-, "all"; payɛiv, "eat"). 131. Icthyophagians (cf. Ix90s, "fish"), who excel in fishing at sea and survive on fish alone. They occupy the mountainous regions beyond the Indians, and Alexander the Great conquered them and forbade them to eat fish. 132. Anthropophagians are a very rough tribe situated below the land of the Sirices. They feed on human flesh and are therefore named 'maneaters' (anthropophagus; cf. äv9pwπos, "man"). As is the case for these nations, so for others the names have changed over the centuries in accordance with their kings, or their locations, or their customs, or for whatever other reasons, so that the primal origin of their names from the passage of time is no longer evident.

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Another reason for negative portrayal of blacks in Roman literature is the pressure exerted by Saharan tribesmen (many of whom would have undoubtedly had dark skin color) on the southern African fringe of the Roman Empire in late third century. Some of these people were marauders and traders who began to threaten the countryside and emerald mines of Upper Egypt after centuries of peaceful Roman-Meroitic relations, but the threat of menace from Saharan barbari was felt throughout the southern parts of every Roman African province. It would be instructive to here look at an epigram by an anonymous Romano-African poem describing a Saharan marauder from the south:

The riff-raff of the Garamantians [Saharan tribe] came up to our part of the world, and a
black slave rejoices in his pitch-colored body; a frightful spook who would scare even grown by
his appearance were it not that the sounds issuing from his lips proclaim him human.
Hadrumeta [a town in modern-day Tunisia], let the fearsome regions of the dead carry off for
their own use this weird creature of yours. He ought to be standing guard at the home of the
god of the nether world (Anth. Lat. 183; cf. Thompson 1989.36).

This is the most extended and vitriolic denunciation of the black somatic type I have yet encountered in my readings. It stands out for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the Latin word translated “riff-raff” is faex, which could also be translated “shit.” Such a term degrades the people with which it is associated to a sub-human standing. Secondly, Thompson points out that the violent tone of this piece suggests something beyond “a simple sensory aversion to negritude, mockery of an alien and unfamiliar somatic appearance, or a concern with voicing a stereotype [of an association with death] of the Aethiops” (1989.37). He observes that the Latin for “slave” here is verna, which could more specifically mean “household slave.” This would mean that the black slave who is rejoicing in the second line is not one of the Garamantians who had been captured and brought up to Hadrumetum, but a black slave born and bred in the city, who finds the bringing of another black-colored slave from the south a cause for celebration. Thus, “we may have here an imputation which presumes sympathy and collaboration with barbarian marauders from the Sahara on the part of one or more local blacks at Hadrumetum, and the hostility reflected by the epic would thus also possess a scapegoating dimension” (1989.37). Assuming that the slaves of Hadrumetum are not Garamantian in origin, this passage could be the only insinuation of a “brotherhood” of Aethiops types in the Roman Empire based primarily on somatic similarity.

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It remains uncertain to what extent this represented a large-scale migration of ‘Mediterranean’ Africans taking over spaces formerly occupied by the Neolithic herders or on the other hand an amalgamation of surviving elements of the Neolithic pastoralists with smaller Berber elements. The rock art evidence suggests that the pastoralists associated with the early phases of Neolithic rock art were primarily black, but in the Late Pastoral period there are also images of light-skinned people of different physiognomy. Some of the evidence from the Early Garamantian phase supports the amalgamation theory, rather than the notion of direct replacement. In particular, the Early Garamantian funerary structures and settlements like Zinkekra featured material elements that were very similar to the Late Pastoral ones, alongside things that were obvious innovations brought from outside the Sahara. Whilst some, such as the developed agricultural package, attest to connection with the Nilo-Mediterranean world, others, such as the ceramic technology with roulette decoration and grog temper, attest to connection with West and Sub-Saharan Africa.6 The latter reminds us that the amalgamation process relied on multidirectional connectedness.

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One might be tempted to argue that the more tropical build of Ain Dokhara 1 suggests that humans associated with the Capsian industry reflect a later increase in gene flow and/or migration from subSaharan Africa, with the Capsians genetically distinct from the older ‘Iberomaurusian’ populations (an argument that has been made historically: Camps, 1974; Dutour, 1995; but see Lubell et al., 1984; Irish, 2000).

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At some time, perhaps around the end of the second millennium, frescos begin to show elongated white men with characteristic long hair and pointed beards. Some confirmation of this racial shift comes from physical anthropology, although the skeletons seem to show closer resemblance to groups from the upper Nile Valley than to contemporary material from the Maghreb.

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Preliminary results obtained from ancient DNA studies are presented in Chapter 13, by Carla Babalini and co-workers. Mitochondrial DNA extraction was attempted upon a sub-sample of human teeth from ten individuals. The mtDNA locus was selected due to its maternal inheritance pattern, high copy number, simple structure and relatively fast rate of mutational change. Analysis was undertaken upon the two hypervariable regions and region V. The authors report that the mtDNA from the individuals from site 96/129 was reasonably distinct from that obtained from the other sampled material. Only one individual was fully characterised, and was found to be a member of an African haplotype (L3).

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Herodotus speaks firstly of an unwarlike tribe of Garamantes near the Mediterranean coast, to the north of the Psylli and Nasamones; secondly, inland in the desert he speaks of (1) the Ammonians, (2) Augila, whence the Nasamones fetch dates, (3) the Garamantes who hunt the Troglodytes of Egypt in chariots and live 30 days from the land of the Lotophagi. Herodotus says all these people in the interior are nomads… The general impression deducible from these quotations is that the Garamantes were a nomad race covering a very
large stretch of country from Fezzán (and even north of it) as far as Upper Egypt: they may have extended even further south, for to the historian writing in the north, the wide spaces of the south would naturally be foreshortened. So then, if we make all allowances for the vagueness of the old geographists it will appear that, on the west, the country at present inhabited by the Kura'án; on the south-east, the "desert of Goran"; and, on the north, the southern part of the country of the ancient Garamantes, may be said jointly to include those inhospitable tracts over which the Eastern Tuwarek (part descendants of the old nomad Berbers) and Tibbu still roam.

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Meanwhile the ancient Romans themselves racialized NW Africans as BLACK (with a few exceptions).

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Of some relevance to your post, here's Snowden on those very exceptional North Africans:



Some modern commentary:

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Originally posted by Antalas:

You can be a black berber...

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The Berbers and Moroccans appear more closely related to European and European-derived populations, whereas the Nubians and Tuareg show a closer genetic affinity to the south-Saharan peoples.

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A significant paternal contribution from south-Saharan Africa (E-U175, haplogroup E1b1a8) was also detected, which may likely be due to recent secondary introduction, possibly through slavery practices or fusion between different tribal groups.

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Overall, the two major haplogroups observed in the Libyan Tuareg are the south-Saharan E1b1a8 (43%) and the Northwest African E1b1b1b (49%), which were detected by screening the biallelic markers U175 and M81, respectively. The high incidence of these two haplogroups is responsible for the low genetic diversity values encountered in the Libyan Tuareg (H 5 0.200 6 0.154 in Tahala, and H 5 0.602 6 0.048 in Al Awaynat, Fig. 1), and their contribution to the gene pool of the two villages in Fezzan appears to be different: E1b1b1b was predominant (89%) versus E1b1a8 (11%) in Tahala, whereas its frequency was lower (39%) in Al Awaynat where the main haplogroup was E1b1a8 (50%)

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Interestingly, the North African E1b1b1b appears to constitute a common paternal genetic matrix in the Tuareg populations since it was encountered at high frequency also in some samples from the Sahel region (Pereira et al., 2010). Specifically, E1b1b1b was found to be dominant in Tahala (89%) and in the Tuareg samples from Burkina Faso (Gorom-Gorom, 78%) and Mali (Gossi, 82%), which explains the cluster observed in the MDS analysis. Differently, in Al Awaynat, as well as in the Tuareg sample from Niger (Tanut), the south-Saharan haplogroup E1b1a was found to be predominant, with frequencies of 50 and 44%, respectively.

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Phylogeographic analysis of L0a1a highlighted a genetic affinity of the Libyan Tuaregs with the Northeast African and the Near Eastern populations. More particularly, this holds true when the Libyan Tuareg L2a1 lineages were grouped with the 16189–16192-16309A! sub-branch. Interestingly, the coalescence age calculated in the typically Near Eastern 16189–16192-16309A! cluster of full mtDNAs (16,012 yrs, SD 5,661) was very close to the values observed in the L0a1a cluster (i.e., 14,678 yrs, SD 4,811). Noteworthy is that similar coalescence ages and geographic distributions were observed in the Y-chromosome haplogroup E-V12∗ (Cruciani et al., 2007), which is related to the movement of people from East Africa northward through the Nile Valley and spreading also into the Central Sahara and the Arabian peninsula. Accordingly, a relationship between the L2a1 and L0a1a mtDNA lineages and this migration flow is proposed.

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The mtDNA analysis helped to characterise the Libyan Tuaregs as a mixed group in which two main components are present. A European component, marked by haplogroups H1 and V, is strongly predominant and is shared with some Berber groups and other north African populations as well. Also present is a typically south Saharan component that shows a genetic relationship with Eastern African populations. The L2a1 and L0a1a lineages could be related to the movement of people from Eastern Africa approximately 15,000 years ago

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The situation with Afroasiatic populations is similarly complex. Tuareg populations’ genetic affinities fall between those of other Berber-speaking populations and various West African and Northeast African groups (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994:172, Rando et al. 1998, Cerny et al. 2004), to a degree mirroring their intermediate position between North Africa and sub-Saharan Africa, even though Tuareg populations have often been considered Hamites and/or ‘Caucasoids’. Ancient mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) recovered from mid-Holocene archaeological sites in the central Sahara, in areas now occupied by Berber populations, yielded similar results (Babalini et al. 2002, di Lernia 2006).

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Within the Saharan/Northern African group there are two subclusters. One is comprised of a number of “national” North African populations (Moroccan, Tunisian, Libyan, Egyptian), as well as Nubian, Bedouin, Berber, and Canarian. Cavalli-Sforza et al. ( 1994 : 172 ) note that there are few data available on the genetic makeup of the Canarian group, and it is not clear whether they are data on modern peoples or on the extinct Guanches. The other cluster consists of a number of Northeast African populations, including the national Sudanese and a generalized Cushitic-speaking group. Within this Northeast African group, one subcluster does not conform to historical or linguistic expectations, as it associates the Algerian national population fairly closely with the Beja of eastern Sudan and somewhat more distantly with the Berber-speaking Tuareg; the latter group thus appears to be rather distinct from other Berber populations. Cavalli-Sforza et al. (pp. 172 – 73 ) posit an ancient relationship between Tuareg and Beja, largely, it appears, on the basis of their shared status as pastoralists. There are no other data that I know of that indicate such a link, and in any case it does not explain the putative close relationship of modern Algerians to both groups. The researchers note that they have data on relatively few genes from this Algerian group, but it should be pointed out that such small data sets are no obstacle to the acceptance of particular genetic associations when these fit their expectations—the Canarian case noted above is a good example.

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The Tuareg presently live in the Sahara and the Sahel. Their ancestors are commonly believed to be the Garamantes of the Libyan Fezzan, ever since it was suggested by authors of antiquity. Biological evidence, based on classical genetic markers, however, indicates kinship with the Beja of Eastern Sudan. Our study of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences and Y chromosome SNPs of three different southern Tuareg groups from Mali, Burkina Faso and the Republic of Niger reveals a West Eurasian-North African composition of their gene pool. The data show that certain genetic lineages could not have been introduced into this population earlier than B9000 years ago whereas local expansions establish a minimal date at around 3000 years ago. Some of the mtDNA haplogroups observed in the Tuareg population were involved in the post-Last Glacial Maximum human expansion from Iberian refugia towards both Europe and North Africa. Interestingly, no Near Eastern mtDNA lineages connected with the Neolithic expansion have been observed in our population sample. On the other hand, the Y chromosome SNPs data show that the paternal lineages can very probably be traced to the Near Eastern Neolithic demic expansion towards North Africa, a period that is otherwise concordant with the above-mentioned mtDNA expansion. The time frame for the migration of the Tuareg towards the African Sahel belt overlaps that of early Holocene climatic changes across the Sahara (from the optimal greening B10 000 YBP to the extant aridity beginning at B6000 YBP) and the migrations of other African nomadic peoples in the area.

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When Cavalli-Sforza et al. (1994: 172-73) noted the anomaly that the Tuareg (Kel Tamasheq), a Berber-speaking pastoral people of so- called Mediterranean stock, were estimated to be genetically closest to the Beja, a Cushitic-speaking pastoral group from further east in the Sudan, this went against the assumed history of Saharan people. This lead MacEachern (2000: 364) to correctly note, "there are no other data I know of that indicate such a link." But perhaps this indication of possible links is not as outrageous as it first seems. I have already shown that there are good archaeological reasons to support large-scale cultural connections over huge areas of the Sahara, and present-day herders both in the Sahara and the Sahel are distributed across large regions, so perhaps we should not be so surprised to find their imprint in the present.

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It is likely that most of the Tuareg E1b1b1b Y-chromosomes (i.e., 13 out of 23, 57%) are related to an expansion event that took place about 2.6 kya in an ancestral population inhabiting a region between Tunisia and the Central Sahara. This event may have coincided with an expansion that led to the formation of derived Tunisian and Central Saharan populations, with the latter, in turn, contributing to the paternal genetic pool of the Tuareg villages in Fezzan. Interestingly, a maternal genetic link with Tunisia, the time estimates of which are compatible with a population split that may have occurred in the second half of the Holocene, was also observed at the level of the African mtDNA H1 phylogeny (Ottoni et al., 2010). This suggests that the same ancestral population may have contributed to the paternal and maternal genetic pool of the Libyan Tuareg.

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The mitochondrial DNA variation of 295 Berber-speakers from Morocco (Asni, Bouhria and Figuig) and the Egyptian oasis of Siwa was evaluated by sequencing a portion of the control region (including HVS-I and part of HVS-II) and surveying haplogroup-specific coding region markers. Our findings show that the Berber mitochondrial pool is characterized by an overall high frequency of Western Eurasian haplogroups, a somehow lower frequency of sub-Saharan L lineages, and a significant (but differential) presence of North African haplogroups U6 and M1, thus occupying an intermediate position between European and sub-Saharan populations in PCA analysis. A clear and significant genetic differentiation between the Berbers from Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers was also observed. The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa. We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating

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Posts: 200 | From: Nibiru | Registered: Mar 2023  |  IP: Logged | 

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This is the same tactics they use with the Nubians, on the 3 Abracts/Leaks thread I decided to read some of that Miro guys posts and he had a tweet about how Afrocentrics "True Ancestors" were the Subjected NHSY war prisoners from Egyptian War Propaganda on the Temple walls...

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Miro is just one of many MENA nationalists trying to one up the "Afro-Centrics". To my understanding his "data" isn't linked to the Schuenemann paper as afew weeks later there was a email from one of the authors also posted on twitter saying such. Although his "data" might be from another paper that may come in afew years, as he was also tweeting about the fact that a certain German anthropologist had got into a "spat" with a group of certain "afro-centrics", who may or may not post here, and started leaking it to people. It's not new.



He also allegedly has "data" showing that west african civilizations were started by "white eurasians". Keep in mind he's speaking to Robert Sepher in the above about how "backward" black people are....

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Also notice how he's desperatly trying NOT to define his definition of black....Weird, Hmm I wonder why?

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aslo were'nt Berbers tribute paying subjects in Walata for example, I doubt this was the outlier..

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Located on Lake Chad's northwestern edge, Kanem's meteoric rise from a territory of loosely connected nomadic groups in the fourth/tenth century to a powerful, urban-based realm in the sixth/twelfth is directly connected to slaving.51 Slaving's importance is reflected in Ibn Sa'id's comments during the reign of Mai Dunama Dubbalemi (599-639/1203-42), and concerns "Berber followers who were converted to Islam by Ibn Habal the sultan of Kanim. They are his slaves. He uses them on his raids and takes advantage of their camels, which have filled these regions."52 Ibn Sa'id discusses the familiar notion of slavery in a most unfamiliar way, as Berbers are usually depicted as enslaving and converting "blacks." As such, he opens a very different vista onto the imprecise, fluid, and surprising configuration of bilad as-sudan, revealing an evolving view of the Lake Chad quadrant, where Kanem is consistently identified with the Zaghawa/ Zaghawā (the apparent progenitors of the Kanuri).

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Posts: 200 | From: Nibiru | Registered: Mar 2023  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Lioness:

A ton of quotes, what's your point?

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Posts: 200 | From: Nibiru | Registered: Mar 2023  |  IP: Logged | 

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You may have thought i was joking when i said that he's calling the Tubu black solely because they speak a Nilo-Saharan language, but im very serious. His "Blacks" dont speak Afro-Asiatic languages with the exception being the Chadic's

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The colonial conquerors saw the upper strata of Tuareg society as white and, according to some, even of European descent. They have been portrayed, among other things, as the descendants of the Vandals, lost crusaders, or even a Caucasian-populated sunken Atlantis (Henry 1996). Meanwhile, the lower strata of Tuareg society, the slaves and blacksmiths, were seen as racially black. Thus, in colonial European presentations of African history, the Tuareg elite was presented as an alien invader which had subdued an indigenous African population, an image that would resurface at various times after independence. In the colonial mind, Tuareg society and its historical white European origins mirrored the colonial project itself. This may have been at the root of the positive appreciation of Tuareg society by French colonial rulers.

To the Malian administration, the Tuareg elite was just as white as it had been to the colonial administration. However, where the latter appreciated their whiteness positively, the Malian Government saw it as a sign of otherness and as a threat. In the 1950s and in the first years after independence, the Malian political leaders made it quite clear that they perceived the Tuareg their whiteness and their way of life as a problem (Lecocq 2002). In the vision of ruling US-RDA politicians, the Tuareg had been colonial favourites because of their whiteness, which had given them a misplaced superiority complex.

As for the Tuareg themselves, their own concepts of race have slightly more sophisticated nuances, but they are nevertheless important in classifying people. Three physical categories are perceived: koual, black; shaggaran, red; and sattafan, greenish or shiny black. Social status is connected to these categories. Koual is the appearance of the blacksmiths and slaves,- shaggaran is associated with the free, but not the noble,- and sattafan is the colour of nobility. Finally, we could note the specifically racial denominator esherdan in the Air and Hoggar dialects, which means mulatto of a "black" and a "red" parent - black and red here meaning African and Arab-Berber, not slave and master (Alojaly 1980)

Thus, local terms to describe racial and social status cannot easily be translated into Western racial or racialist concepts as the French conquerors did. Yet, that is what happened. In 1951, a French Commander could still note about the Tuareg nobility of the Niger Bend, which would most likely be qualified as sattafan, that "many are black and generally do not have the noble appearance of the inhabitants of the [Algerian] Hoggar." Through their own racial bias and despite fifty years of colonial presence, the French commanders translated shaggaran (red) as "white" and "white" as nobles. Indigenous Tuareg physical distinctions have gradually incorporated these more European notions. When speaking French, a Tuareg will now translate koual as "noir." However, both shaggaran (red) and sattafan (greenish black) will be translated "blanc."

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Analysis of the eghawelen among the Kel Antessar requires bridging the ideological divide between whites (imashaghen), also known as reds (ishaggaghen), and blacks (imikwalan), as well as recognizing status boundaries between the free (illelan) and the descendants of slaves whom imashaghen still refer to as bellah.

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Posts: 331 | From: Hell | Registered: Jun 2019  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Baalberith:

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You may have thought i was joking when i said that he's calling the Tubu black solely because they speak a Nilo-Saharan language, but im very serious. His "Blacks" dont speak Afro-Asiatic languages with the exception being the Chadic's

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Just to expand on this, the Tuaregs have been known to display a degree of colorism and tend to distinguished themselves from much darker skinned Africans within their society. That being said, their racial perceptions were inappropriately conflated with Western norms, which had dire consequences on ethnic relations in Mali after Colonialism. In reality, they traditionally identified themselves as "red", and have used "white" and even "green" interchangeably:

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The colonial conquerors saw the upper strata of Tuareg society as white and, according to some, even of European descent. They have been portrayed, among other things, as the descendants of the Vandals, lost crusaders, or even a Caucasian-populated sunken Atlantis (Henry 1996). Meanwhile, the lower strata of Tuareg society, the slaves and blacksmiths, were seen as racially black. Thus, in colonial European presentations of African history, the Tuareg elite was presented as an alien invader which had subdued an indigenous African population, an image that would resurface at various times after independence. In the colonial mind, Tuareg society and its historical white European origins mirrored the colonial project itself. This may have been at the root of the positive appreciation of Tuareg society by French colonial rulers.

To the Malian administration, the Tuareg elite was just as white as it had been to the colonial administration. However, where the latter appreciated their whiteness positively, the Malian Government saw it as a sign of otherness and as a threat. In the 1950s and in the first years after independence, the Malian political leaders made it quite clear that they perceived the Tuareg their whiteness and their way of life as a problem (Lecocq 2002). In the vision of ruling US-RDA politicians, the Tuareg had been colonial favourites because of their whiteness, which had given them a misplaced superiority complex.

As for the Tuareg themselves, their own concepts of race have slightly more sophisticated nuances, but they are nevertheless important in classifying people. Three physical categories are perceived: koual, black; shaggaran, red; and sattafan, greenish or shiny black. Social status is connected to these categories. Koual is the appearance of the blacksmiths and slaves,- shaggaran is associated with the free, but not the noble,- and sattafan is the colour of nobility. Finally, we could note the specifically racial denominator esherdan in the Air and Hoggar dialects, which means mulatto of a "black" and a "red" parent - black and red here meaning African and Arab-Berber, not slave and master (Alojaly 1980)

Thus, local terms to describe racial and social status cannot easily be translated into Western racial or racialist concepts as the French conquerors did. Yet, that is what happened. In 1951, a French Commander could still note about the Tuareg nobility of the Niger Bend, which would most likely be qualified as sattafan, that "many are black and generally do not have the noble appearance of the inhabitants of the [Algerian] Hoggar." Through their own racial bias and despite fifty years of colonial presence, the French commanders translated shaggaran (red) as "white" and "white" as nobles. Indigenous Tuareg physical distinctions have gradually incorporated these more European notions. When speaking French, a Tuareg will now translate koual as "noir." However, both shaggaran (red) and sattafan (greenish black) will be translated "blanc."

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Source: https://sci-hub.se/https://www.jstor.org/stable/25067450

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Analysis of the eghawelen among the Kel Antessar requires bridging the ideological divide between whites (imashaghen), also known as reds (ishaggaghen), and blacks (imikwalan), as well as recognizing status boundaries between the free (illelan) and the descendants of slaves whom imashaghen still refer to as bellah.

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Source: https://www.cairn.info/revue-l-ouest-saharien-2020-1-page-249.htm

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The point is that Europeans have always tried to claim any kind of culture in North Africa as originating with whites, including the Tuaregs.

We need to separate fantasy from reality:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuareg_%E2%80%93_The_Desert_Warrior

Anyone can look up the numerous examples of Tuareg chiefs that the French and others have dealt with over the last 100 years. None of them look anywhere close to white. Not to mention, recall the recent history in Libya, where Kaddafi was claimed to be backed by 'black' Tuaregs from the South before he died. Then after the war, the narrative changed to 'non black' Tuaregs from Libya bring conflict to Mali and Niger.

The core issue is that in the history of populations in the Sahara, features such as long narrow faces evolved among Africans and are indigenous to Africa. Europeans love to claim that these represent "racial" characteristics unique to Europeans or Eurasians which is false. Such features are found all over Africa, in the Sahara, Sahel, the Horn and other parts of Africa. And it is these features that ultimately would be the truest definition or origin of so called "Mediterranean" features where populations with dark skin and straighter hair were common across parts of Northern Africa and into Southern Europe in more ancient times.

And no, I am not denying variation in skin color among indigenous African populations. I am saying this variation historically is based on evolution and separate from any mixture which happened over time.

Tunisians

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cantelmodecantelmi/524877686/


Dassine Oult Yemma and Moussa Ag Amastan, Tuareg chief during French colonial era:

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-dassine-poetess-22265497.html?imageid=F88B6D06-DFE1-480F-AA09-A9EEBC9BEAD1&p=551249&pn=3

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moussa_Ag_Amastan

Ethiopian with "caucasoid" features:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/digital_don/2273782778/in/set-72157600200187084/


The point being when all these papers talk about variation in ancient African crania as proof of "non African" features you have to see it as denying indigenous African diversity.

We have discussed this numerous times before:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009525;p=4#000196

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=010526;p=1

Ancient depictions of Cretans in Nile Valley art:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cretans_Bringing_Gifts,_Tomb_of_Rekhmire_MET_DT10883.jpg

Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

you've made this comment in reply to a Djehuti quote but in that Djehuti quote he said nothing about imposing racial traits
He was doing the opposite, pointing out "negroid" racial traits in proto-historical Punic remains rather than saying 'racial' characteristics should not be imposed

He says
"The results of heterogeneity aren't that surprising "

He did not say "look how they are calling these remains 'negroid', at it again imposing racial characteristics, wrong"

Djehuti might agree with your remark but your remark does not make sense in reply he said in that quote.
What he's doing here is saying, look, there were more negroids over here
Even though he is battling Antalas does not mean every time he quotes him he is disputing his info.

Also issues raised of the Garmantes site in Libya
are not instantly resolved by looking at Gobero in Niger.

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Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

you've made this comment in reply to a Djehuti quote but in that Djehuti quote he said nothing about imposing racial traits
He was doing the opposite, pointing out "negroid" racial traits in proto-historical Punic remains rather than saying 'racial' characteristics should not be imposed

He says
"The results of heterogeneity aren't that surprising "

He did not say "look how they are calling these remains 'negroid', at it again imposing racial characteristics, wrong"

Djehuti might agree with your remark but your remark does not make sense in reply he said in that quote.
What he's doing here is saying, look, there were more negroids over here
Even though he is battling Antalas does not mean every time he quotes him he is disputing his info.

Also issues raised of the Garmantes site in Libya
are not instantly resolved by looking at Gobero in Niger.

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It depends on what you mean by "racial". I cited a passage speaking of differences in cranial morphology. Phenotype and "race" are two different things. The former is objective while the latter is subjective. LOL @ "battling Antalas". I'm not evend debating the guy let alone "battling" him simply because the guy is a clown who was defeated in this forum ages ago. I just like to mock him using his own posts.

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Originally posted by Doug M:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ I read that study the when it came out. The results of heterogeneity aren't that surprising since other studies show the same. Antalas cited a study on proto-historical Punic remains here

On some skulls, there is a more or less accentuated platyrrhiny associated with a more or less marked prognathism. These are all traits that one might consider negroid. If one is only based on the association of these two traits, ten skulls could be considered as negroid. Some are typical, such as Gastel's skull 3.52 which has a sub-nasal groove, flattened nasal bones, accentuated facial and alveolar prognathism, an erased chin, as well as Djelfa's wife (2.11) whose face, although narrow and long, is strongly prognathic with a grooved infra-nasal rim, flattened nasal bones and, a cultural trait common in African Melanoderms, an image of an upper incisor. Others are less typically negroid, but can nevertheless be considered as such, they are the skulls of Beidj (2.10), Tiddis (5.02), Roknia (3.05 and 3.37), Gastel (3.54), Sigus (coll. Thomas 3.79) , Carthage (4.27 and 4.36).

The nose has an average width in absolute value, its height is quite high. The individual distribution of the index is however quite variable with a similar number of lepto- and mesorhinal individuals among protohistoric, Punic and Roman men. Women are more Mesorhinian. We also note the existence of a significant proportion of Platyrrhine individuals (25% of men and women) in protohistoric and Roman burials in Algeria. They are much rarer in Punic burials.



^ That monument bears a striking resemblance to the 'divine fingers' stelae in West Asia.

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Exactly, they have always tried to impose these 'racial' characteristics on ancient African remains from Mechtoid to Mediterranean, even on sites far to the South in Gobero, which has been discussed here numerous times before. And the funny part with this study is they don't even compare these skulls with those other Saharan sites.

https://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=15&t=000523&p=1

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Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Doug M:


Anyone can look up the numerous examples of Tuareg chiefs that the French and others have dealt with over the last 100 years. None of them look anywhere close to white.

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half white half black, in physical appearance

Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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It seems therefore that the ancient population of Libya was made up of different races. Thus we find one Roman author saying that 'some of the Libyans resemble Ethiopians, whilst others are of Cretan stock'.

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Herodotus describes Africa as home to four races of men: Phoenicians, Hellenes, Libyans, and Ethiopians. Only the latter two were natives. The cultures of the Libyans and Ethiopians were frequently compared. Libyans were primarily nomadic and occupied the deserts of the North Africa to the west of Egypt. 'Libyan,' unlike 'Ethiopian,' had no racial connotations; it was associated only with geography.'Ethiopian' became a descriptor for any individual with certain somatic features; thus it is conceivable that white foreigners might confuse true Ethiopians with any other African subgroups, such as the Libyans. For their lack of a central mythology, the Libyans were of far less interest to the ancients than were the Ethiopians.

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Posts: 200 | From: Nibiru | Registered: Mar 2023  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Doug M:


Anyone can look up the numerous examples of Tuareg chiefs that the French and others have dealt with over the last 100 years. None of them look anywhere close to white.

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

half white half black, in physical appearance

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Posts: 200 | From: Nibiru | Registered: Mar 2023  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Shebitku:
A picture of Barack Obama, What's your point? [/QB]

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Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

Getting back to the topic, the point Antalas raised about Garamantes probably not being Berber speakers is the same as that of Clyde Winters.Though I don't know why people are making such conclusions based on their phenotype as opposed to what language(s) they actually spoke which has yet to be resolved.

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I said that is as likely they were Nilo-Saharan speakers as Berber as there is no conclusive evidence of what language they actually spoke. I dont think Antalas did, at least not in this thread and most of the worlds ancient populations were Mande speakers according to Clyde Winters

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So the question is who were the Garamantes closely related to??

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Posts: 200 | From: Nibiru | Registered: Mar 2023  |  IP: Logged | 

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A clear and significant genetic differentiation between the Berbers from Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers was also observed. The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa.

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Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Shebitku:

I said that is as likely they were Nilo-Saharan speakers as Berber as there is no conclusive evidence of what language they actually spoke. I don't think Antalas did, at least not in this thread and most of the world's ancient populations were Mande speakers according to Clyde Winters

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Do you mean ancient populations on modern? If modern the groups already mentioned above in this thread, and "black"- arab tribes like the Awlad Suleiman and Dawwada are also worth mentioning...

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Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged |