The verse is refering that Alhikmah is sent with Quran. If AlHikmah is not the prophet Sunna, what will it be?
My thinking 1- I think on the verse and I see it's sunna
I'm sorry, but this does not answer my questions at all.
My first question was:
If we don't need translations or dictionaries, then how did you come up with "sunna" in the first place? I know you don't read Arabic, so obviously you must have formed your opinion after reading a translation or an interpretation, no?
You have not answered this one.
Secondly -- which verse exactly are you referring to? I posted several.
Also, as I pointed out, some verses don't really make sense if you replace "hikma" with "sunna". I will do that in some ayas below in order to illustrate what I mean. So could you explain how you came up with this conclusion when you thought about the verses I'm referring to?
Or do they envy mankind for what Allah hath given them of his bounty? but We had already given the people of Abraham the Book and the prophet's sunna, and conferred upon them a great kingdom. [4:54]
"And Allah will teach him (Jesus) the Book and the prophet's sunna, the Law and the Gospel [3:48]
By Allah's will they routed them; and David slew Goliath; and Allah gave him power and the prophet's sunna and taught him whatever (else) He willed. [2:251]
We strengthened his kingdom, and gave him (David) the prophet's sunna and sound judgment in speech and decision. [38:20]
"This is what we rehearse unto thee of the Signs and the Message of the prophet's sunna." [3:58]
Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and the prophet's sunna, the Law and the Gospel and behold! ... [5:110]
Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with the prophet's sunna and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.magic.' [16:125]
Mature prophet's sunna; but (the preaching of) Warners profits them not. [54:5]
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quote:Originally posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine: Quran
4-113 Had not the Grace of Allah and His Mercy been upon you (O Muhammad SAW), a party of them would certainly have made a decision to mislead you, but (in fact) they mislead none except their own selves, and no harm can they do to you in the least. Allah has sent down to you the Book (The Quran), and AlHikmah (Islamic laws, knowledge of legal and illegal things i.e. the Prophets Sunnah - legal ways), and taught you that which you knew not. And Ever Great is the Grace of Allah unto you (O Muhammad SAW). mohsin khan
Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
batman thats the whole point of this discussion! now we have gone full circle, AGAIN.
The bit thats ADDED to GODS words there is khans OWN words. OK?? understand that? what Dalia has said is that THAT ADDED bit is NOT what hikmah means IT MEANS WISDOM. So she has quite clearly shown you all those verses and changed where it originally said hikmah and put what YOU and Sultan are saying is the prophets sunnah just to show you that is NOT right.
I really dont know why I am bothering though.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
May I add my contribution to this thread, please?
(1) ALL translations of the quran are an approximation to the meaning of the quran. We dont say it is translation of the quran but translation of the meaning of quran. Bear this in mind.
(2) The Arabic word "hekma" which is literally translated as wisdom has been used to describe the quran metaphorically in Islamic literature. The basis for this is that the quran IS wise.
(3) The actual interpretation of this word in this verse according to Alkortoby is , indeed, wisdom, literally. He says that this verse was revealed in Mecca at a time where Allah ordered a truce with Quraysh. Altabary tafseer and ALgalaleen see that the word hekma refers to the quran only while Ibn Kathir explains that the word refers to the quran and the sunna.
So , actually, both interpretations are possible.
But you know, folks, why we are disagreeing? It's because we cannot reach an agreement about the content of the sunna. This is the danger. As long as we insist on crediting stories that are against any level of reason just because they're in Bukhari, we will continue to disagree.We come back to the point of how sacred is the text of Bukhari and muslim....and others.
If we could limit our concept to the definitive sunna for the purposes of the interpretation of this verse, at least, maybe we can reach a meeting point.
Posts: 670 | From: alex living in leeds, UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
SUNNA N QURAN R REVEALED TO THE PROPHET DENIAL OF SUNNA IS KUFR
YA HOMING PROVIDE ME WITH UR REF SOURCE OF INTERPRETATION IN QURTBI AND IBN KATHIR
Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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وقوله ولولا فضل الله عليك ورحمته لهمت طائفة منهم أن يضلوك وما يضلون إلا أنفسهم وما يضرونك من شيء وقال الإمام ابن أبي حاتم : أنبأنا هاشم بن القاسم الحراني فيما كتب إلي حدثنا محمد بن سلمة عن محمد بن إسحاق عن عاصم بن عمر بن قتادة الأنصاري عن أبيه عن جده قتادة بن النعمان وذكر قصة بني أبيرق فأنزل الله لهمت طائفة منهم أن يضلوك وما يضلون إلا أنفسهم وما يضرونك من شيء يعني أسيد بن عروة وأصحابه يعني بذلك لما أثنوا على بني أبيرق ولاموا قتادة بن النعمان في كونه اتهمهم وهم صلحاء برآء ولم يكن الأمر كما أنهوه إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ولهذا أنزل الله فصل القضية وجلاءها لرسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ثم امتن عليه بتأييده إياه في جميع الأحوال وعصمته له وما أنزل عليه من الكتاب وهو القرآن والحكمة وهي السنة " وعلمك ما لم تكن تعلم " أي قبل نزول ذلك عليك كقوله " وكذلك أوحينا إليك روحا من أمرك ما كنت تدري ما الكتاب " إلى آخر السورة وقال تعالى " وما كنت ترجو أن يلقى إليك الكتاب إلا رحمة من ربك " ولهذا قال وكان فضل الله عليك عظيما . qurbi
وَلَوْلَا فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكَ وَرَحْمَتُهُ
ما بعد " لولا " مرفوع بالابتداء عند سيبويه , والخبر محذوف لا يظهر , والمعنى : " ولولا فضل الله عليك ورحمته " بأن نبهك على الحق , وقيل : بالنبوءة والعصمة . لَهَمَّتْ طَائِفَةٌ مِنْهُمْ أَنْ يُضِلُّوكَ
عن الحق ; لأنهم سألوا رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أن يبرئ ابن أبيرق من التهمة ويلحقها اليهودي , فتفضل الله عز وجل على رسوله عليه السلام بأن نبهه على ذلك وأعلمه إياه . وَمَا يُضِلُّونَ إِلَّا أَنْفُسَهُمْ
لأنهم يعملون عمل الضالين , فوباله لهم راجع عليهم . وَمَا يَضُرُّونَكَ مِنْ شَيْءٍ
هذا ابتداء كلام . وقيل : الواو للحال , كقولك : جئتك والشمس طالعة , ومنه قول امرئ القيس : وقد أغتدي والطير في وكناتهما فالكلام متصل , أي ما يضرونك من شيء مع إنزال الله عليك القرآن . وَالْحِكْمَةَ
وقوله ولولا فضل الله عليك ورحمته لهمت طائفة منهم أن يضلوك وما يضلون إلا أنفسهم وما يضرونك من شيء وقال الإمام ابن أبي حاتم : أنبأنا هاشم بن القاسم الحراني فيما كتب إلي حدثنا محمد بن سلمة عن محمد بن إسحاق عن عاصم بن عمر بن قتادة الأنصاري عن أبيه عن جده قتادة بن النعمان وذكر قصة بني أبيرق فأنزل الله لهمت طائفة منهم أن يضلوك وما يضلون إلا أنفسهم وما يضرونك من شيء يعني أسيد بن عروة وأصحابه يعني بذلك لما أثنوا على بني أبيرق ولاموا قتادة بن النعمان في كونه اتهمهم وهم صلحاء برآء ولم يكن الأمر كما أنهوه إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ولهذا أنزل الله فصل القضية وجلاءها لرسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ثم امتن عليه بتأييده إياه في جميع الأحوال وعصمته له وما أنزل عليه من الكتاب وهو القرآن والحكمة وهي السنة " وعلمك ما لم تكن تعلم " أي قبل نزول ذلك عليك كقوله " وكذلك أوحينا إليك روحا من أمرك ما كنت تدري ما الكتاب " إلى آخر السورة وقال تعالى " وما كنت ترجو أن يلقى إليك الكتاب إلا رحمة من ربك " ولهذا قال وكان فضل الله عليك عظيما . qurbi
وَلَوْلَا فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكَ وَرَحْمَتُهُ
ما بعد " لولا " مرفوع بالابتداء عند سيبويه , والخبر محذوف لا يظهر , والمعنى : " ولولا فضل الله عليك ورحمته " بأن نبهك على الحق , وقيل : بالنبوءة والعصمة . لَهَمَّتْ طَائِفَةٌ مِنْهُمْ أَنْ يُضِلُّوكَ
عن الحق ; لأنهم سألوا رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أن يبرئ ابن أبيرق من التهمة ويلحقها اليهودي , فتفضل الله عز وجل على رسوله عليه السلام بأن نبهه على ذلك وأعلمه إياه . وَمَا يُضِلُّونَ إِلَّا أَنْفُسَهُمْ
لأنهم يعملون عمل الضالين , فوباله لهم راجع عليهم . وَمَا يَضُرُّونَكَ مِنْ شَيْءٍ
هذا ابتداء كلام . وقيل : الواو للحال , كقولك : جئتك والشمس طالعة , ومنه قول امرئ القيس : وقد أغتدي والطير في وكناتهما فالكلام متصل , أي ما يضرونك من شيء مع إنزال الله عليك القرآن . وَالْحِكْمَةَ
posted
Batman, I thought you were looking at surat alnahl verse 125 which I saw in Ayisha's post. That is what my summary refers to. Please go review this and you will find that what I summarised was correct. Besides, you should have noticed that I said that the two interpretations were possible. I have no wish to fight with you, brother Posts: 670 | From: alex living in leeds, UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: [QUOTE]If we don't need translations or dictionaries, then how did you come up with "sunna" in the first place? I know you don't read Arabic, so obviously you must have formed your opinion after reading a translation or an interpretation, no?
[54:5]
What verse are you talking about? According to the context, We can change the interpretation. Understood?
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ): What verse are you talking about?
Are you for real? This what I asked YOU above.
You said: The verse is refering that Alhikmah is sent with Quran. and: I think on the verse and I see it's sunna
I said:
which verse exactly are you referring to? I posted several.
But never mind ... I should have known better than to try to get a reply from you anyway. It's obvious you're dancing around the issue and ignoring questions on purpose because you're unable and unwilling to answer.
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posted
Sorry, We have some problems understanding each other. I'm refering to any verse having "the Book and Wisdom" expression. It does make sense to understand that "wisdom" is the prophetic Sunna.
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posted
Batman, I have a grieviance with you now. You were in too much of a hurry to pass judgement of corrupt sources and not reading well in order to prove your point. I thi k you owe me an apology. I went back and reviewed the tafseers of this particular verse (surat Alnissa: 113) on www.reciter.org.
Ibn Kathir says wisdom here means sunna but Algalaeyn and Altabarry say in this veresw wisdom means the rulings in the quran while Qurtoby says it means divine inspiration. If you compare this to my summary above regarding their interpretation of the word wisdom in surat Alnahl. You will find that, indeed, each one of them has maintained their stance about the interpretation of the word. Which, should tell you again that it is possible that it means sunna and it is possible that it means otherwise.
Looking at another verse that contains the same words book and wisdom; (surat Algoma'a :2)
Alqortoby states that Alhassan has interpeted wisdom as sunna while Ibn Anas has interpreted wisdom as Islamic jurisprudence.
Algalaleyn maintain their stance that wisdom means the rulings of the quran or in other words Islamic jurisprudence
Altabbarry and Ibn Kathir do not enlarge on th interpretation of this word specifically here, probably becasue they have explained it many times over in earlier verses but the general feel of what they say is that it implies the whole of the creed of Islam.
If we review another verse, lets chose an early one on the book, again, to get a comprehensive explanation from the itnerpreters: (Surat Al Imran: 164)
Ibn Kathir still maintains that wisdom is sunna, and here, ALGALAEYN and Altabarry agree while Qurtoby stil maintains that wisdom is the knowledge of islamic rulings and jurisfrudence (fiqh)
Now, the same words in surat Albaqara verse 129 are interpreted as follows:
Ibn Kathir states that according to Ahassan, Qatada, Ibn 7ayyan, Abu Malik and others, wisdom means sunna and according to Ibn Abbass it means obedience and faithfulness to Allah while others mentioned it is islamic jurisprudence while Ibn Ishaq says it means knowledge of what's good and what's evil...(so you see even Ibn Kathir has the sense of the rnowned scholar who presents the range of opinion although he himslef is convinced that wisdom is probably the sunna, he still lists the companions who have interpreted it differently.
While Algaleyn and Alqortoby say it is the rulings again (islamic jurisprudence or fiqh)
I hope now it is clear that there is a RANGE of possible explanations that all make sense in a broad way, wisdom is wisdom within the Islamic creed whether it be sunna, jurisprudence, knowledge of good and evil ....etc. Keep a broad perspective of the word, not a narrow inflexible one.
And Batman, please, do not try to patronize me again. I dont say anything before I'm sure of it as a rule.
Posts: 670 | From: alex living in leeds, UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
Imam Ibn Kathir (RA) and many others (Muslimeen) says hikmah means sunnah and Dalia (Kaffirs/Free-thinkers) say hikmah does not mean sunnah.
Now who do should a Muslim believe? Dalia or Ibn Kathir (RA)? Go figure.
As you might happen to know (or can see from this thread), the word hekma can be found in the Qur'an many times and most translators and commentators tend to use "wisdom" as a translation.
One thing many people do and that I find very helpful when trying to figure out what might be the most correct translation for a word, is to look at other instances where it has been used throughout the Qur'an.
So when I did this it seemed to me that "wisdom" was indeed the most suitable translation in most cases where the original says "hekma".
I took a few verses earlier in this thread and changed the translations. Whenever *hekma* was translated with *wisdom* I replaced it with *the prophet's sunna*. What happens then is that those verses do not make the slightest bit of sense anymore.
Can you explain this? Or can you post some texts by Ibn Kathir or other a'imma or shuyukh that explain this in a comprehensive manner or refer us to some kutub that might help with this issue?
Or do they envy mankind for what Allah hath given them of his bounty? but We had already given the people of Abraham the Book and the prophet's sunna, and conferred upon them a great kingdom. [4:54]
"And Allah will teach him (Jesus) the Book and the prophet's sunna, the Law and the Gospel [3:48]
By Allah's will they routed them; and David slew Goliath; and Allah gave him power and the prophet's sunna and taught him whatever (else) He willed. [2:251]
We strengthened his kingdom, and gave him (David) the prophet's sunna and sound judgment in speech and decision. [38:20]
"This is what we rehearse unto thee of the Signs and the Message of the prophet's sunna." [3:58]
Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and the prophet's sunna, the Law and the Gospel and behold! ... [5:110]
Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with the prophet's sunna and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.magic.' [16:125]
Mature prophet's sunna; but (the preaching of) Warners profits them not. [54:5]
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quote:Originally posted by Mr Egypt: so put many things which Hikma means in the verse and ask yourself was the prophet duty only to deliver the book ?
"He it is Who sent among the unlettered ones a Messenger from among themselves, reciting to them His verses, purifying them and teaching them the Book and Hikmah ( many things ).And verily, they had been before in manifest error." (62:2)
so where are these many things that the prophet teached us ?
ROFL!!!
I did not mean that it literally means "many things". Love the example.
If you read my whole post it should become clear that I meant it means "wisdom" in most cases, but might mean something similar or different in a few others.
As I described before, I did a research and I did read many verses that contained "hekma", and in all cases I read, "wisdom" made the most sense. But I did NOT check every single ayat containing a "hekma" or another derivative of the root "hakama". Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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Can you explain this? Or can you post some texts by Ibn Kathir or other a'imma or shuyukh that explain this in a comprehensive manner or refer us to some kutub that might help with this issue?
4:113 [But for the Grace of Allah to thee and His Mercy, a party of them would certainly have plotted to lead thee astray. But (in fact) they will only lead their own souls astray, and to thee they can do no harm in the least. For Allah hath sent down to thee the Book and Wisdom and taught thee what thou knewest not (before): and great is the Grace of Allah unto thee. ]
I don't think you read Arabic but you can have someone you trust to translate for you, so Ibn Kathir say the Wisdom is the Sunnah
Posts: 1201 | From: Egypt | Registered: Mar 2006
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If you read my whole post it should become clear that I meant it means "wisdom" in most cases, but might mean something similar or different in a few others.
we need to know the other meanings of it, could one of them be the Sunnah as Ibn Kathir said ? especially the verse of Surat Al-Nisaa 4 speaks of the wisdom being sent down to the prophet with the book.
Posts: 1201 | From: Egypt | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
hey hey hey ,,,,,why r u getting every thing so complicated ...things are so simple and easy .and islam is meant to be simple and clear so don't make it hard on u ppl......1st don't argue about things like this while u r not (qualified) for giving critical infos on things like that ( not an authorised shiekh from islamic well known orgnisation ) or something..... second ..... sunnah only means one thing which is ( to follow prophet mohamad p.b.o.h with his actions ,,, like doing things in the same way he used to do it ..pray like this , or wash b4 praying like that ,or pray for forgivness b4 asr prayer ...etc etc ....,which muslims are not obliged to do , following that raises the level of good points of mankind within his book infront of god ,but its not (a duty from god ) but its prefered to do so,,,,, 3rd .... about Hekma word ,,,,,, and Dalia ,,I'll explain to u as I didn't see a real convincing reason here ,,,, look... arabic dictionary doesn't furfill the whole meanings of quran words ,coz god words in qura`n came in a way that have a kind of wt we call (miracle ) words have really deep meanings and special tones on mankind ears , there are some words that the islamic translation of it was according to the msg that god is sending within that sintance ,,,, (Hekma) means sometimes - wisdom , and in other sintances means - reliegon , and in some other sintances means - position as ruling,,,,,,so don't try to understand qura`n from a normal arabic dictionary ,,not even the best arabic dictionarys can .... there are special dictionarys for qura`n called ( tafseer elqur`an )-qur`an explaination- built on strong basics in islam and it have the right explanations for the holy qur`an .... hope I helped a little here ...and god knows better than me and any other ......thanks .
Posts: 235 | From: cairo | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
it cannot be to explain hekma as sunnah there if allah has sent down the holy qur`an on the phrophet mohamad p.b.o.h , coz how sunnah will be sent on mohamad while sunnah is a trail of prophet mohamad's purity in islam ....sunnah means to follow him in his actions ....so there it means that god brought down on him the holy qura`n and wisdom or (reliegon) which is a wisdom as well .... the sunna is not a one thing people ..... like when say (wa etb3o sunnat allah w rsoleh ) means sunna of allah and his prophet ...it means hear the holy words of allah and the trail of his phrophet (following allah's phrophet mohamad p.b.o.h .
Posts: 235 | From: cairo | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
BTW where is Islamway i.e. Sultan..We need him back here..mashaa Allah what a wonderful Muslim.
-------------------- 'Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "Allah's Apostle (صلى الله عليه و سلم) took hold of my shoulder and said, "Be in this world as if you were a stranger or a traveller." Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
true he was fun too with his twisted version of Islam. Just like you he ignored glaringly obvious errors and questions on them, and just like you he was lacking a BRAIN to think with.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: true he was fun too with his twisted version of Islam. Just like you he ignored glaringly obvious errors and questions on them, and just like you he was lacking a BRAIN to think with.
You kaffireen (Dalia and Ayisha) wouldn't know if Islaam if it slapped you in the face. Looks like I'm not the only one who has been showing you Al Haqq and you still don't get it.
The brother obviously got tired of responding to your garbage like me and found better use of his time than debating with imbeciles who can't read or write in the langauage that Allah and the bless Prophet Muhammad salallahu alayhi wassalam spoke in and they that in 5 1/2 years they know the deen better than the ones who sat at the blessed feet of the Rasulullah Salalllahu alayhi wassalaam and now think that are the defenders and preservers of the deen.
Now whose version of Islaam is twisted? Ayisha who celebrates Christmas,attending church, rejecting ahadeeth, listening to Monks and Buddhist chants all awhile proclaiming she is loves tawheed? Or the Islaam of the As Salafah As Saleh?
Go figure!
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: true he was fun too with his twisted version of Islam. Just like you he ignored glaringly obvious errors and questions on them, and just like you he was lacking a BRAIN to think with.
You kaffireen (Dalia and Ayisha) wouldn't know if Islaam if it slapped you in the face. Looks like I'm not the only one who has been showing you Al Haqq and you still don't get it.
The brother obviously got tired of responding to your garbage like me and found better use of his time than debating with imbeciles who can read or write in the langauage that Allah and the bless Prophet Muhammad salallahu alayhi wassalam spoke in and they that in 5 1/2 years they know the deen better than the ones who sat at the blessed feet of the Rasulullah Salalllahu alayhi wassalaam and now think that are the defenders and preservers of the deen.
Now whose version of Islaam is twisted? Ayisha who celebrates Christmas,attending church, rejecting ahadeeth, listening to Monks and Buddist chants all awhile proclaiming she is love tawheed? Or the Islaam of the As Salafah As Saleh?
Go figure!
Listen you twisted excuse for a human being, I have never claimed to know Islam better than anyone who sat at the feet of the prophet but you DO claim to know it FROM THEM, BUFFALO EXCREMENT DEAR.
quote:than debating with imbeciles who can read or write in the langauage
I like this bit though, yes I have tired of debating with imbeciles like you who can read or write Arabic, the point is you can read or write Arabic and YOU STILL DONT GET IT because YOU HAVE A TINY BRAIN CELL and wouldnt recognize TRUTH if it slapped YOU in the face. THE TRUTH IS IN THE BOOK! And I dont mean the book of BUKHARI. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Mr Egypt: I don't think you read Arabic
You have a bad memory, Mr. Egypt, because you've said this to me several times in the past, and every time I have told you I do read Arabic.
You obviously have not read this thread. How do you do a root search and use a dictionary if you don't read Arabic? Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: You kaffireen (Dalia and Ayisha) wouldn't know if Islaam if it slapped you in the face. Looks like I'm not the only one who has been showing you Al Haqq and you still don't get it.
Now whose version of Islaam is twisted? Ayisha who celebrates Christmas,attending church, rejecting ahadeeth, listening to Monks and Buddhist chants all awhile proclaiming she is loves tawheed? Or the Islaam of the As Salafah As Saleh?
Thank you for you reply. I take this to mean that you have no clue how to answer my question.
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: The brother obviously got tired of responding to your garbage like me and found better use of his time than debating with imbeciles who can't read or write in the langauage that Allah and the bless Prophet Muhammad salallahu alayhi wassalam spoke in
The brother does not speak or read Arabic. In fact, he doesn't even speak or read English properly. Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: You have a bad memory, Mr. Egypt, because you've said this to me several times in the past, and every time I have told you I do read Arabic.
actually I don't bother to know or memorize informations about you, no offense. If you read arabic I have posted for you what you asked and I doubt you even understood it even though you speak Arabic. unless you translate the paragraph and where's your comment about tafsir Ibn Kathir and his explanation of the wisdom as Sunnah ?
Posts: 1201 | From: Egypt | Registered: Mar 2006
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wisdom is wisdom, old wise men have wisdom, they do not have 'the prophets sunnah'. Someone who is wise is not necessarily a prophet.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Mr Egypt: actually I don't bother to know or memorize informations about you, no offense.
I'm not offended at all. Your latest replies just confirmed my opinion that you're not intelligent khalas. Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: so why didnt Allah SAY sunnah?
wisdom is wisdom, old wise men have wisdom, they do not have 'the prophets sunnah'. Someone who is wise is not necessarily a prophet.
Here is the answer for you and Dalia Inshaa Allah.
Allah uses the word dhikr to mean the Quran. Why didn't He just say Quran? He didn't, He says Dhirk right Dalia?
How do we know the word dhikr means quran. I looked up the word in a dictionary and is says rememberance for example. No where does it says Quran.
So the mufasireen told us that the word dhkir when used in Quranic lanaguge it means Quran...the same holds true in the case of wisdom.
I can't not explain it any clearer. Now the answer to your question Ayisha why used hikmah and it means sunnah you might just have to take that up with Allah on the Day of Judgement sense your free-thinking mind doesn't have the answer nor to you turn to the people of knowledge as Allah tells you to do so. "If you do not know ask the People of knowledge.!"
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posted
The word Quran is used in all these verses 2:185, 4:82, 5:101, 6:19, 7:204, 9:111, 10:15, 10:37, 10:61, 12:2, 12:3, 12:31, 15:1, 15:87, 15:91, 16:98, 17:9, 17:41, 17:45, 17:46, 17:60, 17:78, 17:78, 17:82, 17:88, 17:89, 17:106, 18:54, 20:2, 20:113, 20:114, 25:30, 25:32, 27:1, 27:6, 27:76, 27:92, 28:85, 30:58, 34:31, 36:2, 36:69, 38:1, 39:27, 39:28, 41:3, 41:26, 41:44, 42:7, 43:3, 43:31, 46:29, 47:24, 50:1, 50:45, 54:17, 54:22, 54:32, 54:40, 55:2, 56:77, 59:21, 72:1, 73:4, 73:20, 75:17, 75:18, 76:23, 84:21, 85:21 Could you give a verse that dhikr is used to mean quran, thank you
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Quran) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption). 15:9
Posts: 338 | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Here is the answer for you and Dalia Inshaa Allah.
Allah uses the word dhikr to mean the Quran. Why didn't He just say Quran? He didn't, He says Dhirk right Dalia?
I think it makes perfect sense. God sent the Qur'an as a reminder (dhikr). If you read the verse Jouer posted above, it is very clear ... "We have sent down the reminder and will guard it from corruption". It's obvious that this is referring to the Qur'an itself.
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Bil-Bayyināti Wa Az-Zuburi Wa 'Anzalnā 'Ilayka Adh-Dhikra Litubayyina Lilnnāsi Mā Nuzzila 'Ilayhim Wa La`allahum Yatafakkarūna
"And I revealed to you the dhikr (Reminder (Quran) in order that you explain to the people what was revealed to them.." 16:44 --------------------------------------- 'Innā Naĥnu Nazzalnā Adh-Dhikra Wa 'Innā Lahu Laĥāfižūna
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ وَالزُّبُرِ وَأَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الذِّكْرَ لِتُبَيِّنَ لِلنَّاسِ مَا نُزِّلَ إِلَيْهِمْ وَلَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ
Bil-Bayyināti Wa Az-Zuburi Wa 'Anzalnā 'Ilayka Adh-Dhikra Litubayyina Lilnnāsi Mā Nuzzila 'Ilayhim Wa La`allahum Yatafakkarūna
"And I revealed to you the dhikr (Reminder (Quran) in order that you explain to the people what was revealed to them.." 16:44
Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Quran) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption). 15:9
Inshaa Allah now you see the importance of learning, studying, and reading the Dhikr (Quran) in the Arabic Language.
Sorry the Sandman was away in Jumuah Prayers.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say. This does not contradict what I wrote earlier.
Here are some more:
Wakullan naqussu AAalayka min anba-ialrrusuli ma nuthabbitu bihi fu-adaka wajaakafee hathihi alhaqqu wamawAAithatun wathikralilmu/mineena WKLA NQSs AoLYK MN ANBAAa ALRSL MA NThBT BHa FnullADK WJAAaK FY HaDhHa ALHQ WMWAoZhnull WDhKRY LLMnullMNYN And all that We relate unto thee of the story of the messengers is in order that thereby We may make firm thy heart. And herein hath come unto thee the Truth and an exhortation and a reminder for believers. 11:120
Waqaloo ya ayyuha allatheenuzzila AAalayhi alththikru innaka lamajnoonun WQALWA YnullYHaA ALDhY NZL AoLYHa ALDhKR ANK LMJNWN And they say: O thou unto whom the Reminder is revealed, lo! thou art indeed a madman! 15:6
Inna nahnu nazzalna alththikrawa-inna lahu lahafithoona ANA NHN NZLNA ALDhKR WANA LHa LHAFZhWN Lo! We, even We, reveal the Reminder, and lo! We verily are its Guardian. 15:9
lbayyinati waalzzuburiwaanzalna ilayka alththikra litubayyina lilnnasima nuzzila ilayhim walaAAallahum yatafakkaroona BALBYNAT WALZBR WANZLNA ALYK ALDhKR LTBYN LLNAS MA NZL ALYHaM WLAoLHaM YTFKRWN With clear proofs and writings; and We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect. 16:44
Kathalika naqussu AAalayka minanba-i ma qad sabaqa waqad ataynakamin ladunna thikran KDhLK NQSs AoLYK MN ANBAAa MA QD SBQ WQD ATYNAK MN LDNA DhKRA Thus relate We unto thee (Muhammad) some tidings of that which happened of old, and We have given thee from Our presence a reminder. 20:99
Wama arsalna qablaka illarijalan noohee ilayhim fais-aloo ahla alththikriin kuntum la taAAlamoona WMA ARSLNA QBLK ALA RJALA NWHY ALYHaM FSALWA AHaL ALDhKR AN KNTM LA TAoLMWN And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men, whom We inspired. Ask the followers of the Reminder if ye know not? 21:7
Wahatha thikrun mubarakunanzalnahu afaantum lahu munkiroona WHaDhA DhKR MBARK ANZLNAHa AFANTM LHa MNKRWN This is a blessed Reminder that we have revealed: Will ye then reject it? 21:50
Wama AAallamnahu alshshiAArawama yanbaghee lahu in huwa illa thikrunwaqur-anun mubeenun WMA AoLMNAHa ALShAoR WMA YNBGhY LHa AN HaW ALA DhKR WQRAN MBYN And We have not taught him (Muhammad) poetry, nor is it meet for him. This is naught else than a Reminder and a Lecture making plain, 36:69
Hatha thikrun wa-innalilmuttaqeena lahusna maabin HaDhA DhKR WAN LLMTQYN LHSN MAB This is a reminder. And lo! for those who ward off (evil) is a happy journey's end, 38:49
Hudan wathikra li-olee al-albabi HaDY WDhKRY LAWLY ALALBAB A guide and a reminder for men of understanding. 40:54
Inna allatheena kafaroo bialththikrilamma jaahum wa-innahu lakitabun AAazeezun AN ALDhYN KFRWA BALDhKR LMA JAAaHaM WANHa LKTAB AoZYZ Lo! those who disbelieve in the Reminder when it cometh unto them (are guilty), for lo! it is an unassailable Scripture. 41:41
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Here is the answer for you and Dalia Inshaa Allah.
Allah uses the word dhikr to mean the Quran. Why didn't He just say Quran? He didn't, He says Dhirk right Dalia?
I think it makes perfect sense. God sent the Qur'an as a reminder (dhikr). If you read the verse Jouer posted above, it is very clear ... "We have sent down the reminder and will guard it from corruption". It's obvious that this is referring to the Qur'an itself.
Oh now it makes perfect sense subhana Allah. La ilaha Illah. Why does it now make perfect sense. The word dhikr from the lugahtul Arabic could not in anyway mean Quran. The word dkhir when used in Quranic language is clarified by the mufasireen not by the dictionary. The same holds true for hikmah mashaa Allah.
As Imam ibn Kathir (RA) eloquently pointed out hikmah means sunnah!
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Oh now it makes perfect sense subhana Allah. La ilaha Illah. Why does it now make perfect sense. The word dhikr from the lugahtul Arabic could not in anyway mean Quran. The word dkhir when used in Quranic language is clarified by the mufasireen not by the dictionary.
Sorry, but I don't really understand the problem here. Of course the dictionaries don't list "Qur'an" as a translation for "dhikr", but nevertheless it is obvious when reading the verses in question, even without any additional explanations. It's a metaphor that makes perfect sense.
Edited: I just looked into my dictionary (I'm using Hans Wehr) and it does list "ad-dhikr al-hakim" as "the Qur'an"
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posted
"And I revealed to you the dhikr (Reminder (Quran) in order that you explain to the people what was revealed to them.." 16:44
so how do you explain 16:43?
"And before thee also the messengers We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: if ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message."
The same word is used but it is clealy talking about the message/reminder sent before Quran.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Oh now it makes perfect sense subhana Allah. La ilaha Illah. Why does it now make perfect sense. The word dhikr from the lugahtul Arabic could not in anyway mean Quran. The word dkhir when used in Quranic language is clarified by the mufasireen not by the dictionary.
Sorry, but I don't really understand the problem here. Of course the dictionaries don't list "Qur'an" as a translation for "dhikr", but nevertheless it is obvious when reading the verses in question, even without any additional explanations. It's a metaphor that makes perfect sense.
Edited: I just looked into my dictionary (I'm using Hans Wehr) and it does list "ad-dhikr al-hakim" as "the Qur'an"
Don't you play the word game. Look up the root word dha-ka-ra (dhikr)..not a jumlah word ad dhikr Al hakim..just like you looked the word up the root word for ha-ka-ma (hikmah) as the root word hikmah
Stop playing with words...We are not discusing the words ad dhikr al hakim. We were talking about two words:
1. hikimah ha-ka-ma 2. dhikr dha-ka-ra
Not ad dhirk al hikmah..astagfirullah
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Don't you play the word game. Look up the root word dha-ka-ra (dhikr)..not a jumlah word ad dhikr Al hakim..just like you looked the word up the root word for ha-ka-ma (hikmah) as the root word hikmah
Stop playing with words...We are not discusing the words ad dhikr al hakim. We were talking about two words:
1. hikimah ha-ka-ma 2. dhikr dha-ka-ra
I am not "playing" with words, I am trying to research a word and its meanings.
And, yes, of course I did look up the root "dha-ka ra".
Anyway, I still don't understand what your problem is and why you're picking on me, so I will repeat myself one more time and then leave this conversation with you:
If you look up "dha-ka-ra" and its derivatives, the verses posted above are perfectly clear. My point was that you don't NEED a dictionary to tell you that "dhikr" could mean "Qur'an" and you don't need explanations either; it is a metaphor and becomes self-evident when reading the verses in question. Thus I don't understand why you insist it should be a problem.
I'm off to the gym now, have a great day everyone. Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Don't you play the word game. Look up the root word dha-ka-ra (dhikr)..not a jumlah word ad dhikr Al hakim..just like you looked the word up the root word for ha-ka-ma (hikmah) as the root word hikmah
Stop playing with words...We are not discusing the words ad dhikr al hakim. We were talking about two words:
1. hikimah ha-ka-ma 2. dhikr dha-ka-ra
Not ad dhirk al hikmah..astagfirullah
= Thaal-Kaf-Ra = to remember/commemorate/recollect, study in order to remember, remind, bear in mind, mindful, mention/tell/relate, magnify/praise, admonish/warn (e.g. dhikra is the 2nd declenation and it is stronger than dhikr), preach, extol, give status. nobility/eminence/honour, fame, good report, cause of good reputation, means of exaltation. Male/man/masculine (dhakar, dual - dhakarain, plural - dhukur).
Ha-Kaf-Miim = To restrain from, exercise authority, command, give judgment, judge, be wise. To restrain/prevent/withhold a person from acting in an evil or corrupt manner, to judge or give judgement, pass sentence, decide judicially, exercise judicial authority/jurisdiction/rule/dominion/government, order or ordain or decree a thing, to be wise, to be sound in judgement, possess knowledge or science and wisdom, render a thing firm/stable/sound/free from defect or imperfection by the exercise of skill.
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: "And I revealed to you the dhikr (Reminder (Quran) in order that you explain to the people what was revealed to them.." 16:44
so how do you explain 16:43?
"And before thee also the messengers We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: if ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message."
The same word is used but it is clealy talking about the message/reminder sent before Quran.
posted
Okay Ayisha you have been shown the proof and even Dalia agrees using the dictionary and Quran..
We will leave you with your own free-thinking mind..
Like Dalia..I'm done with the topic.
The two ayaats are sufficient evidence at least Dalia and I and Joueur agree about dhikr means quran and I and Joueur understand hakim to mean sunnah..
Bye Bye!
-------------------- 'Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "Allah's Apostle (صلى الله عليه و سلم) took hold of my shoulder and said, "Be in this world as if you were a stranger or a traveller." Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Sands am I to think you cant answer this?
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: "And I revealed to you the dhikr (Reminder (Quran) in order that you explain to the people what was revealed to them.." 16:44
so how do you explain 16:43?
"And before thee also the messengers We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: if ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message."
The same word is used but it is clealy talking about the message/reminder sent before Quran.
Yes, ayisha..the Arabic language is very vast..I have said this before..a word may have 15 different meaning depending on the context in which it is used..
Hadeeth means communication, story, a tale, report it literal meaning as an adjective is new as opposed to old. It can also mean a narration.
The word dhikr has a vast meanings as well and one of the is Quran and message..
Inshaa Allah I hope that is clear.
Barakallahu feekum
BTW another example in English: the word spring
1. Spring..as in season 2. Spring as in a body of water 3. Spring..as in jumping 4. Spring as in a vehicle part
etc..a word take many meaning depending on the context in which it is used..
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